ODnD (Cyclopedia) Question - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

ODnD (Cyclopedia) Question

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
autolykos74
Jun 16, 2006 16:48:42 I just picked up a copy of the Rules Cyclopedia and I find myself a bit confused regarding the 'Attack Rank' for demi-human characters. The level advancement tables for the Dwarf, Elf & Halfling list just letters under the 'Attack Rank' heading but I cannot find anywhere it states what those letters are supposed to represent! Could someone give me a hand?
#2
robertfisher
Jun 17, 2006 0:43:59 Check the combat tables on p.106.

(Although those page numbers are insanely hard to see &--at least in my copy--p.106 doesn't even have its number listed!)

Look at the column headed "DH".

Personally, I've always thought it made more sense to either stick strictly by the level limits or forego them completely (with the optional rule on p.266).
#3
autolykos74
Jun 17, 2006 7:38:01 What do those letters listed there (A thru M) represent? I assume they represent different Fighter Combat Manuevers but I can't find where it is stated what each of those letters specifically mean.
#4
havard
Jun 17, 2006 11:40:49
What do those letters listed there (A thru M) represent? I assume they represent different Fighter Combat Manuevers but I can't find where it is stated what each of those letters specifically mean.

They don't mean anything except to indicate that one progresses to A first and then B etc, but are identified by letters rather than numbers to distinguish them from levels.

Håvard
#5
agathokles
Jun 17, 2006 13:34:23
They don't mean anything except to indicate that one progresses to A first and then B etc, but are identified by letters rather than numbers to distinguish them from levels.

To be even more clear, Attack Ranks are simply a form of advancement for the demihumans rising above the maximum level. In OD&D, demihumans only receive bonuses to Hit Rolls (and Weapon Masteries and Skills, if used) when rising in level above their maximum. To label these pseudo-levels, letters are used instead of numbers. So, an 8th level Halfling can raise to Attack Rank B and all the way up to Attack Rank K by gaining more XP. This should allow demihumans to continue adventuring at higher levels.
#6
havard
Jun 17, 2006 18:59:49 As Robert suggested I'd go with the optional rule of allowing everyone to go to 36th level. This variant may be slightly flawed, but if you tweak around with it a little I'm sure you'll get it to work decently.

Håvard
#7
autolykos74
Jun 17, 2006 20:42:11 Very true - it makes more sense just to let all characters porgess to 36th level. I might just give the human classes a couple of bonus stat points at the beginning to balance the immediate benefits demi-humans get.
#8
havard
Jun 18, 2006 8:44:56
Very true - it makes more sense just to let all characters porgess to 36th level. I might just give the human classes a couple of bonus stat points at the beginning to balance the immediate benefits demi-humans get.

I agree that allowing all characters to progress to level 36 makes sense, and giving a few bonuses to stats is a good idea. However, Mr Reaper in his RC errata writes:

========================
Page 266, Variant Rules:
========================

I feel I should mention that I really don't recommend using any of the optional rules
presented in this section, most notably the ones allowing Demi-humans to advance up to 36th
level. Many people might look over this and think, "Hey, removing the level limits for Demi-
Humans... good idea." However, if you actually look at the numbers used here, you'll find that
Demi-Humans will be far worse off than if you just use the standard Attack Rank progression.
Halflings, especially, get terribly penalized by these rules. The main problem is that
these XP charts were built by looking at the Attack Rank progressions, and equating each
Attack Rank to one level of experience. However, Attack Ranks are more difficult to gain than
a standard level, typically requiring around twice as much XP, so the numbers on this chart
become overinflated. Charging a Halfling 300,000 XP for every level between 9 and 18 will set
him back terribly from where he'd normally be, and giving him the hit rolls of a Cleric rather
than a Fighter will mean his hit rolls are going to be far, far worse than if you just use the
standard Attack Rank progression. Using this progression, a Halfling reaches level 18 at
3,000,000 XP (when a standard Fighter reaches level 32) but will only be hitting as if he were
a Fighter of level 13-15. Normally he'd be hitting as a fighter of level 22-24 at that XP
total. The benefit of 10-15 extra Hit Points by then just doesn't balance it out.
In summary: Don't use these rules for Demi-Human advancement; the standard rules for Attack
Ranks work fine.

I would still like to see a way for demihumans to advance to 36th level, but clearly some more tinkering is required.

Håvard

PS: the Errata in its entirity can be found here:
http://web.newsguy.com/a_doom/RCerrata/
#9
agathokles
Jun 18, 2006 11:01:15
I would still like to see a way for demihumans to advance to 36th level, but clearly some more tinkering is required.

You're right. I suppose something could be done using the Player Creature rules.
Elves could be based on the Sidhe or Leprechaun progression, for example, while Dwarves could be modeled on Gnomes, and Halflings on Brownies. Or maybe simply using the Fighter chart.
#10
robertfisher
Jun 18, 2006 14:21:43 I disagree with MrReaper, though I see his point. When using the RC rules for 36th level demihumans, the halflings are still better off than when they couldn't progress past 8th level at all. (i.e. before the attack rank kludge) Just because it isn't as favorable for them as the attack rank kludge isn't a compelling reason to not use the appendix.

Not that the appendix is sacrosanct itself. Just that that particular argument for not using it doesn't convince me.
#11
chatdemon
Jun 23, 2006 4:29:52
Don't use these rules for Demi-Human advancement; the standard rules for Attack
Ranks work fine.

Well, opinions vary on the matter, but I tend to agree with Mr Reaper 100%

I felt the Attack Rank system, as Frank (Mentzer) laid it out, worked fine for keeping demi-humans viable at high level play without removing the benefits of actual high level progression from humans, imbalancing the system.

YMMV.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 autolykos74 Jun 16, 2006 16:48:42	I just picked up a copy of the Rules Cyclopedia and I find myself a bit confused regarding the 'Attack Rank' for demi-human characters. The level advancement tables for the Dwarf, Elf & Halfling list just letters under the 'Attack Rank' heading but I cannot find anywhere it states what those letters are supposed to represent! Could someone give me a hand?
#2 robertfisher Jun 17, 2006 0:43:59	Check the combat tables on p.106. (Although those page numbers are insanely hard to see &--at least in my copy--p.106 doesn't even have its number listed!) Look at the column headed "DH". Personally, I've always thought it made more sense to either stick strictly by the level limits or forego them completely (with the optional rule on p.266).
#3 autolykos74 Jun 17, 2006 7:38:01	What do those letters listed there (A thru M) represent? I assume they represent different Fighter Combat Manuevers but I can't find where it is stated what each of those letters specifically mean.
#4 havard Jun 17, 2006 11:40:49	What do those letters listed there (A thru M) represent? I assume they represent different Fighter Combat Manuevers but I can't find where it is stated what each of those letters specifically mean. They don't mean anything except to indicate that one progresses to A first and then B etc, but are identified by letters rather than numbers to distinguish them from levels. Håvard
#5 agathokles Jun 17, 2006 13:34:23	They don't mean anything except to indicate that one progresses to A first and then B etc, but are identified by letters rather than numbers to distinguish them from levels. To be even more clear, Attack Ranks are simply a form of advancement for the demihumans rising above the maximum level. In OD&D, demihumans only receive bonuses to Hit Rolls (and Weapon Masteries and Skills, if used) when rising in level above their maximum. To label these pseudo-levels, letters are used instead of numbers. So, an 8th level Halfling can raise to Attack Rank B and all the way up to Attack Rank K by gaining more XP. This should allow demihumans to continue adventuring at higher levels.
#6 havard Jun 17, 2006 18:59:49	As Robert suggested I'd go with the optional rule of allowing everyone to go to 36th level. This variant may be slightly flawed, but if you tweak around with it a little I'm sure you'll get it to work decently. Håvard
#7 autolykos74 Jun 17, 2006 20:42:11	Very true - it makes more sense just to let all characters porgess to 36th level. I might just give the human classes a couple of bonus stat points at the beginning to balance the immediate benefits demi-humans get.
#8 havard Jun 18, 2006 8:44:56	Very true - it makes more sense just to let all characters porgess to 36th level. I might just give the human classes a couple of bonus stat points at the beginning to balance the immediate benefits demi-humans get. I agree that allowing all characters to progress to level 36 makes sense, and giving a few bonuses to stats is a good idea. However, Mr Reaper in his RC errata writes: ======================== Page 266, Variant Rules: ======================== I feel I should mention that I really don't recommend using any of the optional rules presented in this section, most notably the ones allowing Demi-humans to advance up to 36th level. Many people might look over this and think, "Hey, removing the level limits for Demi- Humans... good idea." However, if you actually look at the numbers used here, you'll find that Demi-Humans will be far worse off than if you just use the standard Attack Rank progression. Halflings, especially, get terribly penalized by these rules. The main problem is that these XP charts were built by looking at the Attack Rank progressions, and equating each Attack Rank to one level of experience. However, Attack Ranks are more difficult to gain than a standard level, typically requiring around twice as much XP, so the numbers on this chart become overinflated. Charging a Halfling 300,000 XP for every level between 9 and 18 will set him back terribly from where he'd normally be, and giving him the hit rolls of a Cleric rather than a Fighter will mean his hit rolls are going to be far, far worse than if you just use the standard Attack Rank progression. Using this progression, a Halfling reaches level 18 at 3,000,000 XP (when a standard Fighter reaches level 32) but will only be hitting as if he were a Fighter of level 13-15. Normally he'd be hitting as a fighter of level 22-24 at that XP total. The benefit of 10-15 extra Hit Points by then just doesn't balance it out. In summary: Don't use these rules for Demi-Human advancement; the standard rules for Attack Ranks work fine. I would still like to see a way for demihumans to advance to 36th level, but clearly some more tinkering is required. Håvard PS: the Errata in its entirity can be found here: http://web.newsguy.com/a_doom/RCerrata/
#9 agathokles Jun 18, 2006 11:01:15	I would still like to see a way for demihumans to advance to 36th level, but clearly some more tinkering is required. You're right. I suppose something could be done using the Player Creature rules. Elves could be based on the Sidhe or Leprechaun progression, for example, while Dwarves could be modeled on Gnomes, and Halflings on Brownies. Or maybe simply using the Fighter chart.
#10 robertfisher Jun 18, 2006 14:21:43	I disagree with MrReaper, though I see his point. When using the RC rules for 36th level demihumans, the halflings are still better off than when they couldn't progress past 8th level at all. (i.e. before the attack rank kludge) Just because it isn't as favorable for them as the attack rank kludge isn't a compelling reason to not use the appendix. Not that the appendix is sacrosanct itself. Just that that particular argument for not using it doesn't convince me.
#11 chatdemon Jun 23, 2006 4:29:52	Don't use these rules for Demi-Human advancement; the standard rules for Attack Ranks work fine. Well, opinions vary on the matter, but I tend to agree with Mr Reaper 100% I felt the Attack Rank system, as Frank (Mentzer) laid it out, worked fine for keeping demi-humans viable at high level play without removing the benefits of actual high level progression from humans, imbalancing the system. YMMV.