The first barrier that we must cross is in accepting the world of Middle-earth is very different from conventional Dungeons and Dragons standards. It functions in a low-magic world where wizards are few and far apart, and their powers small in comparison to the standard fare of a high-level sorcerer. The kind of instantaneous magical healing that we take for granted is not so common, although there is weak magical healing. Lastly, magic items themselves are indeed a rarity even among the heroes of the story. The players must accept that they will play in a modified version of the land of Middle-earth.
Many would suggest that it would be best to change the rules of Dungeons and Dragons into a low-magic world, making spellcasters incredibly unique and magic items as rare as artifacts. I however, have found a particular disliking for this type of campaign setting. I find low-magic settings to be rather boring and not detached enough from reality. For this reason, I suggest that only small changes are made to the magic of D&D in order to make it work in the story of the ring.
Travel is a large part of the story, and thus teleportation magic or flying or any magic that allows traveling to be done with great speed must be omitted and dismissed as “broken”. Being invisible is also a very powerful ability of Sauron’s ring, and thus invisibility spells should be removed. I think that it is possible to do this without compromising the balance of the magic system in Dungeons and Dragons. You may find that there are other “problematic” types of spells that I have not yet foreseen, and you should definitely make it clear that they do not exist.
Dungeons and Dragons has a wealth of monsters and horrid undead that overshadows the diversity creatures that occur in Middle-earth by many, many times. I think that if you are planning on drawing the campaign out through more than just two or three levels, you are going to want to take advantage of this diversity. Perhaps beholders wander the Dead Marshes, or Mind Flayers hide from the rabble of goblins in the depths of Moria.
The story of the Lord of the Rings is filled with great wars going on in the background. Armies of tens of thousands clash against each other with the main characters in the middle of the fray. This often translates poorly and boringly into Dungeons and Dragons, so I have one suggestion: put the battles in the background and make the ring the sole concern of the adventuring party. It is necessary to do this in order to keep the party from splitting up anyway.
Lastly, the members of your group with undoubtedly have background knowledge of the story. It is impossible to repress this and they may even have an urge to mimic the actions of the characters of the story entirely. They may wish to wander right into the mysterious realm of Lothlorien hoping to come out with free cloaks of elvenkind. It is for this reason that I highly suggest modifying the world to fit Dungeons and Dragons as I have done here. If your campaign is completed, it should resemble the story of Tolkein’s books very little, except that they have the same objective, and maybe a few same pinnacle moments. Of course, nothing is guaranteed in this game.
I will now move on to the technical intricacies of the campaign.
Characters
There will probably not be nine characters in your group. If this is the case, it would probably be best to still keep one character to a person (although if you are fine with it, go ahead and let each person play a second character also). The most important good characters to the adventure are Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo. Next (from the perspective of adventuring) come Legolas and Gimli. Boromir, Pippin, Merry, and Sam can all be considered minor characters for the purpose of game play, and don’t need to be in your story. One might wonder is Gandalf should be an NPC in your campaign, but I would suggest that it is possible for a player to run him also. He is the one with the most knowledge and wisdom, and he is the primary enemy of Sauron, so help the player to role-play it. Of course, let the players play which characters they want, and if they want to entirely tear down a character and change him completely, let him. Your campaign is barely a shadow of the true story anyway, so if Aragorn is actually a half-orc paladin, your story will simply change to match it as you progress. It should not be your goal to mimic Tolkein but to be inspired by the concept of the story. I suggest that you consider starting the characters at a somewhat middle/low level, or start them at level one and allow them to have some minor adventures of lesser importance before introducing the plot of the ring. Level five should be a good point to start setting the main plot into motion.
Magic Items
Here I have a list of all the various magic items in the Lord of the Rings and my idea of how they may work in Dungeons and Dragons:
Sting (the blade carried by Bilbo and then Frodo Baggins)
+1 bane humanoid (orcs) shortsword.
Special traits: glows faintly blue whenever an orc or goblinoid is within two-hundred feet of it.
Glamdring (the blade carried by Gandalf)
+2 spellstoring longsword
Special traits: glows faintly blue whenever an orc or goblinoid is within two-hundred feet of it.
Anduril (forged from the shards of Narsil, sword of kings)
+3 defending bastard sword
Special traits: this sword may have a certain connection with anyone of the western king bloodline, and grant them extra abilities while they hold it.
Mithril shirt (gifted to Bilbo by the dwarves who then gave it to Frodo)
Same as the mithral chain shirt in the DMG.
Gandalf’s staff (made of wood, he also bears a crystal which he may command to glow, which I believe is known as the flame of Anor, but I may be wrong)
Functions as a staff of fire with 30 charges. The crystal weighs less than a half a pound and may be set in the staff. It has the ability of the light spell which can be activated at will. It may also emit light as the daylight spell for up to one hour a day. This hour may be spread over several uses
Phial of Galadriel (given to Frodo in Lothlorien)
This small crystal flask is filled with water. It may emit light as the daylight spell for up to three hours a day. These three hours may be spread over several uses.
Palantir (crystal balls, there is known to be one in Orthanc, one in Minas Tirith, and one in Barad-dur)
These function exactly like a crystal ball with telepathy.
Saruman’s staff (made of sturdy obsidian, set with a pearly orb at the top)
Fuctions as a staff of Illusion.
Morgul Blade (carried by the Nazgul)
These ancient dirty blades are chipped and rusting. The blade functions as a +2 longsword. The blade also inflicts an additional 1 point of vile damage per attack. Vile damage can only be healed in a Hallowed area.
Narya (one of the three elven rings, the ring of fire, possessed by Gandalf)
This ring is golden with a fire-red ruby set in it. Its function is determined by the bearer’s magical power, as are all rings of power:
No spellcasting ability: The ring functions as a ring of protection +1 and provides a constant endure elements (cold) effect so long as the bearer wears it.
Ability to cast second level spells: The ring also grants pyrotechnics (twice a day).
Ability to cast fourth level spells: The ring increases its deflection bonus to +2 and grants wall of fire (once per day)
Ability to cast sixth level spells: The ring also acts as a ring of minor elemental resistance (fire)
Ability to cast seventh level spells: The ring increases its deflection bonus to +3 and increases its elemental resistance to major
Ability to cast eighth level spells: The ring functions as a ring of elemental control (fire), but loses all other previous abilities
Nenya (one of the three elven rings, the ring of water, carried by lady Galadriel)
This ring is wrought of mithral and is set with a single white jewel. Its function is determined by the bearer’s magical power, as are all rings of power:
No spellcasting ability: the ring functions as a ring of protection +1, and grants a +5 competence bonus to swim checks.
Ability to cast second level spells: The ring also grants create water (unlimited use)
Ability to cast fourth level spells: The ring increases its deflection bonus to +2 and grants Wall of Ice (once per day)
Ability to cast sixth level spells: The ring provides water breathing (unlimited use)
Ability to cast seventh level spells: The ring increases its deflection bonus to +3 and allows the use of ice storm (twice per week)
Ability to cast eighth level spells: The ring functions as a ring of elemental control (water), but loses all other previous abilities
Vilya (one of the three elven rings, the ring of air, worn by Elrond)
This ring is made of gold and is set with a large blue stone. Its function is determined by the bearer’s magical power, as are all rings of power:
No spellcasting ability: The ring functions as a ring of protection +1, and confers the feather fall ability to its wearer
Ability to cast second level spells: The ring grants the use of gust of wind (once per day)
Ability to cast fourth level spells: The ring increases its deflection bonus to +2 and grants wind wall (once per day)
Ability to cast sixth level spells: The ring also acts as a ring of minor elemental resistance (electricity)
Ability to cast seventh level spells: The ring increases its deflection bonus to +3 and allows gust of wind to be used twice per day
Ability to cast eight level spells: The ring functions as a ring of elemental control (air) and loses all other previous abilities
Ring of the Nazgul (one of the nine rings gifted to men, each Ringwraith carries one)
The ring is made of tarnished silver, and is set with a small amber gem. It cannot be taken from the Nazgul as it is a part of them, and functions only for them:
This ring functions as a ring of protection +2. In addition to this, the ring grants a +4 enhancement bonus to charisma and a +2 enhancement bonus to dexterity. The ring also grants permanent True seeing.
Sauron’s ring (the one ring forged by Sauron in Orodruin, passes through several hands)
This ring is made purely of gold in one smooth band, when heated by some source that is enough to burn flesh, a red script appears along the inside and outside of the ring, reading the ancient poem in the black speech of Mordor. The ring is intelligent as follows:
AL LE; Cha 19, Wis 10, Int 19; Speech, telepathy; 120 ft darkvision, blindsense, and hearing; Ego score (varies based on wearer). The ring wants nothing more than to be on the hand of its master, Sauron, again. It may occasionally whisper some words in black speech, or other tongues. When it can sense a Nazgul nearby (120ft usually, but up to half a mile in very open terrain), it will get into an ego conflict with whoever bears it, if the ring is dominant, it will force the bearer to put on the ring, and not fight the Nazgul. Any person may spend a full round action trying to shake the suffering character back into his senses, allowing another saving throw. Of course, this usually means the helping PC will have to find where the invisible PC is. Whenever one of the ring's actual powers are used (such as dominate person), the ring will also enter in an ego conflict with the character. Success pushes the character to be "attached" to the ring. At this point, the character will only give it up to a good friend, and it will upset him greatly. A second failed ego conflict in this way will make the player not willingly give the ring up. The ring is also very subtle and intelligent, and may even influence the characters in ways they do not expect.
The functions of Sauron’s ring are determined by the bearer’s magical power, as are all rings of power:
No spellcasting ability: The ring grants health to anyone that keeps it near them, providing a +2 enhancement bonus to constitution. It also keeps them from aging. Only one person may be benefiting from this, usually whoever carries it in their pack. When placed on the finger, the ring grants greater invisibility which will function continuously as long as the ring is worn and not in an anti-magic zone. Also when worn, the ring grants a +20 competence bonus to listen checks.
Ability to cast second level spells (all the functions henceforth only work while the ring is worn): The bearer can choose to suppress and activate the invisibility as will. The ring grants a +1 deflection bonus to AC. The wearer gains a +2 enhancement bonus to strength. The ring grants bane once per day.
Ability to cast fourth level spells: The ring increases its deflection bonus to +3. It grants a +2 enhancement bonus to intelligence, and a +2 enhancement bonus to charisma. It also grants Charm monster once per day.
Ability to cast sixth level spells: All of the rings ability enhancements increase to +4. The ring grants charm monster (unlimited) and dominate person (twice per day).
Ability to cast seventh level spells: The ring also functions as a ring of regeneration and a ring of freedom of movement. Its charisma and strength bonus increases to +6.
Ability to cast eighth level spells: All ability bonuses increase to +6, and its deflection bonus increases to +4. The ring grants dominate person (unlimited).
Ability to cast ninth level spells: The deflection bonus is increases to +5. The ring also functions as a ring of wizardry (IV).
The wearer is Sauron: The ring grants limited wish (unlimited), and wish (once per day). The wearer may cast one spell as a swift-action, once per round. The strength and constitution bonuses increase to +10.
How the characters come upon these items is up to you, and you may choose not to include some of them at all. It may be best if they are recovered in some semi-early adventures, such as Bilbo and Gandalf finding Sting and Glamdring in a troll’s treasure horde.
Non-player Characters and Monsters
Here I have penned out some stats and ideas for the various important characters and monsters that appear in the Lord of the Rings world. This is a somewhat chaotic list because I could go on for pages typing out specific stats and all of the minor and major characters. For this reason, I only offer some of the information and the stats of particularly important characters:
SARUMAN
Saruman is a wizard of great power and cunning. He reveals that he wishes to side with evil at about the same time he learns about the ring’s reappearance. Depending on the level of your campaign, you should make him a very high level wizard, slowly increasing in levels as his connection with Sauron strengthens. You can decide whether or not he wishes to serve or betray Sauron. He should specialize in the school of enchantment, as he is supposed to be able to captivate his listeners with mere words. Other schools of importance to him are divination, transmutation, and illusion. I suggest making evocation and conjuration his prohibited schools. He has various magic items in his tower of Orthanc, and among the most important ones are a robe of scintillating colors, Saruman’s staff, and a palantir.
TOM BOMBADIL
An old bearded man that lives in the woods near the Shire, Tom Bombadil is probably aligned neutral good. He is most likely a high-level druid, and will show little interest in leaving his home to go off on some quest. He will be benevolent to any characters of good heart towards nature that cross his path though.
SAURON
Sauron is an immortal Maiar spirit. Since he does not have the ring that he poured half of himself into, he cannot take true physical form yet. You may however, decide that since his power is increasing, that he may eventually be able to materialize before regaining the ring, thus making him a climactic foe for the end of the quest. Remember that he is a great sorcerer, so his levels should be in wizard or sorcerer.
NAZGUL
The Nazgul are the fingers of Sauron. There are nine of them, and they are all twisted undead spirits. At the city of Minas Morgul, they can bring shape to their spirit forms and become corporeal. Whenever killed, no matter how, they become completely ethereal and cannot interact with the material world, nor are they visible. They fly across the landscape back to their lair to gain new forms and hunt for the ring again. You can determine how long this takes and when they are able to return again. They are always attracted to the power of Sauron’s ring, and in its presence, they have a strange effect on it (see Sauron’s ring). Their power is constantly growing along with Sauron’s, and this is good because it allows you to level them up so that they are constantly a threat to the adventuring party. They will probably armor themselves in enchanted chain or banded mail. They should be human fighters as a base template.
Nazgul, an undead template, applied to humans that are corrupted by the power of the nine rings:
Hit Dice: Increase to d12
Speed: The base human retains its original speed.
AC: The base human gains a +2 natural armor bonus
Attacks: The base human maintains its original base attack bonus and gains no new attacks.
Special Qualities: The base human gains darkvision 120ft, undead traits, and immunity to cold (but vulnerability to fire), just as a cold subtype. The Nazgul have an insatiable desire for the ring, and may be drawn to focus on whoever bears it, which is particularly easy when it is worn
Special Attacks:
Wail (Su): Once per day, a Nazgul can let out a terrifying shriek that chills the blood of any living being nearby. All living creatures within 60 ft must make a will saving throw vs a DC = 10 + ½ Nazgul’s HD + Cha modifier. Those that fail are subject to random effects on a d3, lasting d4 rounds:
1 = panicked
2 = frightened
3 = shaken
Saves: Same as the base human
Abilities: Str +4, Dex +2, Con - , Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +4
Skills: Same as the base human, but a +4 bonus to listen checks
Feats: Same as base human.
CR adjustment: +2
Monster conversions:
Orcs = Orcs
Trolls = Trolls of various types
Moria Orcs = Goblins
Watcher in the deep = Dark tentacles (MM2)
Balrog = Balor in theory, remove the better spell-like abilities and teleportation
Barrow wights = regular wights
Uruk-hai = Grimlock stats, but regular eyesight and Hobgoblin description
Mumakil = Dire elephant
Shelob = Monstrous colossal spider
With all of this information, I hope that I may have inspired some of you to make an attempt at running a Lord of the Rings style campaign. I have left many things unexplained because I do not wish to impose very much on how to set up the plot or the rules in your campaign. The ring may very well be found in the belly of an ancient trout while your group is fishing, or in the treasure horde of a small dragon, or it may have been around a long time, although its history was not known. Do not be afraid to retell the story in your own way; let the PCs and yourself create your own unique tale of the War of the Ring.
I like most of your minor items, except for Gandalf's sword which should probably also be a bane weapon (orcs or outsiders (evil)). I think that the EGO downside to the one ring should increase with the level of the power that is used (like spell level+casterlevel+10), and I would also give hobbits a +4 bonus against it.
Your forgetting a few things like Red Dragons Smog was a Red Dragon and the Witch King had to have been a multi-class fighter sorcerer.
If those are the only things I have not included in here, then I consider myself extremely concise. Most DMs know about Smaug and the Witch King is, in a way, one of the more minor characters, and doesn't necessarily have to fit a niche. Thus -- he might be a high-level cleric.
Cloaks of Lorien
Daggers gained from the Barrow Wights
Horn of Gondor (Boromirs horn)
Elven rope
Sheath of Anduril (Gift from Galadriel, weapon that uses it can never be broken)
Soil given by Galadriel to Sam
Possibly the bow given by Galadriel to Legolas. (Doesn't say that it is magical, but apparently it is a mighty bow, and strung with elves hairs?)
And as an added note, the rules for advancement of monsters now allows you to give a huge range of variety in opponents to the heroes, without having to do much converting. i.e. the orcs in the MM are 1st level warriors. Just give Uruk Hai 2 or 3 levels of fighter or barbarian, that sort of thing.
Reread the Hobbit. The spiders talk, the trolls turn to stone in sunlight thanks to Gandolf's use of ventriloquism and a cockney accent, even the troll's hoard is guarded by wards and spells cast by both G AND the dwarfs. In Fangreen forest, more than just ents move, the trees do as well, and don't forget the Ent-drink that leaves Merry and Pip more than just Halflings, but more the size of teenagers.
Now, you have given a very accurate picture of the LotR as portrayed in the movies, but do realize that much of the High Fantasy is removed in the movies in order to appeal to a greater audience. It is a tribute to such a story that even with such change, it is still so great that its absence is not greatly mourned, and is kept more than you might think. Notice on the mountain that Legolas is walking on the surface of waste deep snow (true to the books), as well as his over-the-top-ness. What is missing is Gandolf throwing around fireballs and lightning (which he does in Moria, as well as a portal holding spell that the Balrog breaks through).
A few other things I would mention would be that the UH where not clones in the books, but rather half-orcs, specifically breed between human and orc stock to be resistant to sunlight (also, in Tolkien, Orcs and Goblins are synonyms, much like halflings and hobbits).
So, if you want to run a LotR campaign (and I'm sure there is an official setting out there somewhere), do not feel compelled to use a low magic campaign. Just remember that magic is almost never "artificial" and is usually just a natural part of the Middle-earth order (ie Tom Bombadil).
Oh, and to add to the magic item list, there is the latmas bread, the river boats (that will not turn or sink), all the other rings (including the dwarven ones, some of which where known), the cloaks and broaches, the Ent-drink, the staff of the Brown wizard (his name escapes me), etc etc.
the staff of the Brown wizard (his name escapes me)
Radagast.
If you read the Silmarilian and compare its First/Second Age to that of the Third in LotR, you'll notice that the magic in Middle-Earth recedes with the close of each age. The reason any magic remains in Middle-Earth in the Fourth Age is from items crafted or blessed by the elves.
If you're going to do a campaign, I'd set it at in the Second Age towards its close for a more traditional type of D&D game. You can have the elves and humans fighting against Sauron's armies. Also, the Third Age's prime material, b/c you have the fall of the Northern Kingdom at the hands of the Witch-King of Angmar and the incursions of the Corsairs of Umbar to the south. You could easily do a game centered around the battles leading up to the Siege of Gondor and just after that. Check out the Appendixes of RotK for more information; it might be worth your time to flip through GW's LotR mini game b/c they have ideas for combat in there and some info on lesser known battles that took place in Middle-Earth.
Just thought to mention.
I'm interested in the translation of the Elven Rings into D&D, though i feel their most important powers were left out. You focused on them as elemental rings (and perhaps game mechanics require this), when in truth those rings were rarely, and probably never, used as such.
They're designed to have much less tangible, but more important powers, much like the one ring. For example, both Nenya and Vilya were designed to "maintain" - it was through the power of these two rings that the realms/places of Imaldris and Lothlorien are in their respective state - i.e., they recall a bygone era (the first age) because aging ceases within the control sphere of the rings. Note that when both Elrond and Galadriel leave, both locations "begin to fade"... they become somewhat dark, uninhabited places, and the magic that was once in the air is now gone.
The ring Gandalf wears, Nilya, given to him by Cirdan, has the power to move people to action, to accomplishment and great deeds - not just in the elemental sense, fire is used as a reference to the fire and passion in the soul. It is argued by some that this ring had a lot to do with getting Thorin off his butt to retake the lonely mountain (a critical point in the war of the ring), getting the hobbits (especially Bilbo) up and out the door, dealing with some of the participants in the battle of the 5 armies, getting Theoden to move, and many times during the defense of Gondor.... among others
The problem is how are these aspects boiled down to something usable in D&D, I honestly don't know... and probably wouldn't bother trying to do so. Maybe incorporate elements of the Paladin's aura of courage, suggestion, or something like that for the ring of fire.
Anyway, all and all a good job.
Gandalf’s staff (made of wood, he also bears a crystal which he may command to glow, which I believe is known as the flame of Anor, but I may be wrong)
I forgot to comment on this earlier, and it's really a minor detail - The Flame of Anor is not the crystal used by Gandalf (more less as a focus for a light spell or some such thing). What it actually is is debatable.
A good summary of what the Flame of Anor reference is supposed to be is found on the Encyclopedia of Arda website. I'm more partial to the first interpretation.
From the "Flame of Anor" section:
"'You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass."
Gandalf's challenge to the Balrog
from The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
A mysterious power claimed by Gandalf in the face of Durin's Bane. It is nowhere else referred to, and so its particular meaning remains unclear. Anor is the Sun, and so literally the 'flame of Anor' would be the light of the Sun, which originated in the fiery fruit of Laurelin, one of the Two Trees of Valinor. Gandalf seems to be referring, then, to the power he gains as a servant of the Lords of the West, in defiance to the corrupted darkness of the Balrog.
Alternatively, it has been suggested that Gandalf is referring here to Narya, the Ring of Fire that he bore. This idea certainly fits with the notion that he was the 'wielder' of the Ring, and that it had a fiery character. However, it seems highly unlikely that Gandalf would want to reveal his ownership of a Ring of Power - a matter of utmost secrecy - to one of his greatest enemies.
Encyclopedia of Arda
There is a lot of magic in the LotR, and an especial lot in The Hobbit. Understand that Tolkien's world was infused with magic, even soaked with it. Almost every character and creature is distinctly magical, without even the exception of Hobbits and Men.
I wouldn't say that Tolkien's works are magical as much as they are surreal. Spiders talking and troll's turning to stone could happen in the real world, should gene technology go haywire; but that's unimportant as I'd say stuff like that isn't magic as much as it is surreal physical abilities. The whole world seems supernatural and dream-like to me, yet I personally see very few examples of actual magic. Dragons aren't actually magical creatures, Sauron isn't really a magician, more of a mini-god.
My two cents.
The middle earth book "series" is so huge in it's scale that it really thumps you down to realizing what an insignificant little grain of sand is one human being in thousands of years of history about gods, heroes and great kings and great evils and wars and so on.
Secondly if you truly look at the Magics cast about in Tolkien's books you will see that even the most mundane spell takes alot out of the Wizard. That is one other reason Magic isn't tossed about like we do in D&D. If you were to institute a Fatigue check after each spell of 10+spell Level + spells already cast, You can get closer to how magic works in Middle Earth.
Your forgetting a few things like Red Dragons Smog was a Red Dragon and the Witch King had to have been a multi-class fighter sorcerer.
Sauron IS the Witch King, just located in Mirkwood. He's driven out by Gandalf and the Council and flees to Mordor.
-Z
To Zeitgeistgeist: You are misremembering. Sauron is not the witchking in Dol Guldur. He is the Necromancer. The Witch King is the Witch King, and doesn't really come in to play until LOTR.
Sauron IS the Witch King, just located in Mirkwood. He's driven out by Gandalf and the Council and flees to Mordor.
-Z
No, you're thinking of the Necromancer, as he's referred to in the Hobbit. But otherwise, you're correct.
I forgot to comment on this earlier, and it's really a minor detail - The Flame of Anor is not the crystal used by Gandalf (more less as a focus for a light spell or some such thing). What it actually is is debatable.
In "the music of the Valar" The Genesis of the Silmarillion, there is a mention of a "flame imperishable" that Eru use to make Arda "real" (and that Melkor search for, in the Void before the Creation), I always thought that the Secret fire is a reference to this, or at least related.
The Witch King is the Morgul Lord, the lead Nazgul. Shame on me....
I shall now go burn my Tolkien books in shame ;)
-Z
Look at the strom along the mountain pass in Fellowship. That was no natural storm but one conjured by Sauraman.
So? That only proves Saruman can cast 7th level spells :D
Look at the strom along the mountain pass in Fellowship. That was no natural storm but one conjured by Sauraman.
Actually, if I recall correctly, in the book the Fellowship was actually turned back by a mistempered mountain, without one hint of Saruman's interference.
Look at the strom along the mountain pass in Fellowship. That was no natural storm but one conjured by Sauraman.
IIRC, it was the spirits of Caradhras that caused the storm. Jackson changed it in the movies, with reasonable cause.
A well written article. Though, I do not agree with all of it, I must say it is very well-done. And the Witch King should be a cleric for sure. ;)
Sting: Sting should be a SPIDER-bane weapon, as it was presumably created to combat the spawn of Ungoliant.
Glamdring: Definitely would have the Holy property. It did play a big factor in the defeat of the Balrog of Moria, remember - which was a Demon.
Anduril: I don't think "Defending" really fits with the idea of Anduril. I'd go more with a Keen Holy weapon. maybe even Ghost Touch.
Palantiri: This is a minor notation, but TWO Palantiri were in Barad-dur, not just one.
Morgul Blade: The Morgul blade was the knife, not the swords. It would probably be some kind of evil dagger. And remember that a sliver breaks off whenever it stabs someone and works its way to their heart. When it reaches the heart, the victim becomes a wraith.
----------------------Oakspar77777------------------
There is a lot of magic in the LotR, and an especial lot in The Hobbit. Understand that Tolkien's world was infused with magic, even soaked with it. Almost every character and creature is distinctly magical, without even the exception of Hobbits and Men.
Not exactly accurate. Tolkien's world is infused with very SUBTLE magics. Low-magic. The Hobbit is not an accurate way of judging, it was a children's book that was written before Middle-earth was fully put together. The Middle-earth of The Hobbit hardly resembles the Middle-earth of LotR.
And I disagree that every character and creature is distinctly magical. That's a bit absurd to say... there doesn't seem to be any reason to make such an assumption. Many characters were definitely heroic and powerful.. but that was the point - it was a mythology, an epic tale. It was supposed to be a mythology of England. People were heroic in epic tales. But there was nothing magical about any of the Fellowship, excluding Gandalf.
Reread the Hobbit. The spiders talk, the trolls turn to stone in sunlight thanks to Gandalf's use of ventriloquism and a cockney accent, even the troll's hoard is guarded by wards and spells cast by both G AND the dwarfs. In Fangreen forest, more than just ents move, the trees do as well, and don't forget the Ent-drink that leaves Merry and Pip more than just Halflings, but more the size of teenagers.
They were not left the size of teenagers. They were about a foot taller. That makes them 4 - 4-1/2 feet tall. Were you a really short teenager? I don't know many 4-foot 16 year olds.
And I already covered the unreliability of The Hobbit in discussing the level of magic of Middle-earth.
Notice on the mountain that Legolas is walking on the surface of waste deep snow (true to the books), as well as his over-the-top-ness. What is missing is Gandolf throwing around fireballs and lightning (which he does in Moria, as well as a portal holding spell that the Balrog breaks through).
1) Legolas walking on snow was the inherent subtle magics of Middle-earth's greatest race. It wasn't some spell-like ability or anything. Elves are just very light-footed. I don't know what you mean about his "over-the-top-ness" unless you mean things like single-handedly killing a Mumakil.. which he never did anything of the sort in the book.
2) I don't recall Gandalf throwing around fireballs and lightning, but maybe I'm forgetting. I do recall that he held a spell to keep a physical door closed (probably a very low level spell in D&D). And let's not forget.. whatever Gandalf did.. he was one of VERY few spellcasters. If my count is correct, Tolkien only mentions about 10 or so people in all of Middle-earth capable of manipulating 'magic.'
So, if you want to run a LotR campaign (and I'm sure there is an official setting out there somewhere),
There is a Lord of the Rings game that uses the CODA system.. a gaming system VERY much like D&D. The game is published by Decipher and is VERY good. Decipher also makes the Lord of the Rings Trading Card Game, for those of you familiar with it.
do not feel compelled to use a low magic campaign. Just remember that magic is almost never "artificial" and is usually just a natural part of the Middle-earth order (ie Tom Bombadil).
Spellcasting and powerful magic is exceedingly rare. Characters like Gandalf and the Witch-king are rarities. No one even knows what Tom Bombadil was, Tolkien never specifies. He was probably a spirit. Which isn't magical but supernatural.
there is the latmas bread, the river boats (that will not turn or sink), all the other rings (including the dwarven ones, some of which where known), the cloaks and broaches, the Ent-drink, the staff of the Brown wizard (his name escapes me), etc etc.
Lembas bread.
The river boats weren't really magical, they were exceptionally well made. I think in any game for Lord of the Rings there should be entirely separate rules for Elven-crafted things as Elves have a way of creating things that are EXCEPTIONAL yet not sorcerous.
If you're making a game based on the time of the War of the Ring there aren't many rings left to stat up. 5 of the 7 Dwarven rings were gone by that time, all of the Men's Rings are on the Nazgul (good luck getting them off), and the three Elven Rings are left--that's all.
And the Brown Wizard was Radagast the Brown. And if you really want, you can write up the staves of the two Blue Wizards as well.
They are High Magic with Low availability. Magic is much more powerful in some regards then the DnD world we know simply because the spells available in Tolkien's world are more reserved for True Wizards which translates to Maiar. Look at the strom along the mountain pass in Fellowship. That was no natural storm but one conjured by Sauraman.
More powerful? There are no high-powered spells in Middle-earth, by comparison. Most of the spells we see would fall under the casting ability of low to mid-level Wizards. No one ever uses a Power Word: Kill or Meteor Storm or whatever.
And the storm at Caradhras was not Saruman's spell. Saruman's spell awakened the malicious spirit of the mountain. That's all. It was actually the mountain that attacked the Fellowship.
Not only is that little fact in the books but it's even in the movies. Listen to what Saruman is saying and compare it with your handy Quenya dictionary. He's saying something to the effect of: (can't remember the exact words) "Awake, Great Caradhras, awake. Punish those who trespass against you. Caradhras, awaken!"
As stated earlier by my comrades in arms, probably the best place to set a LOTR setting in D&D would be in the Second Age with the battles against Sauron or even Melkor. Back then, magic was completely all around, from the Maiar Queen to Sauron and all the Elvish magic used to protect their cities. In that setting, almost all normal D&D could be accessed short of some things such as the Monk or Bard. Just my two cents.
You are right - except for your statement that bards would not fit. Finrod Felagund, who battled Sauron with magical songs, could very well be seen as a bard. The same applies for Luthien, whose songs are so enchanting that they move the heart of the death-warden Mandos himself.
Btw, in the old MERP-game (no, this is NOT a commercial mention, it's not for sale anymore), the standard time setting was 1640 third age.
In this time, the great plague had just swept through northwestern middle-earth. Gondor is weakened, but still the prime military power of the world. Mordor is an evil place, but Sauron himself is still in hiding at Dol Guldur.
In the north, hobbits have already settled the Shire, while the noble Dunedain oh Arnor, ancestors of the Rangers, battle the orcs and evil men of the Witch-King.
You have most of the locales from the LotR, but the power setting is still a bit higher, and there a splendid possibilities for adventures and campaigns (after all, except for the ring-quest and the wars around it, there's not much to do in the LotR-era).
And, last but not least: Vahenir is wrong AFAIK, concerning the Palantiri. There were seven, and their locations are/were:
4 in Gondor:
- one is kept in Orthanc till the fellowship takes it
- one is in Minas Anor/Tirith
- one was in Minas Ithil, until the Nazgul conquered this place, made it Minas Morgul and sent the Palantir to Barad-Dur.
- one was in Osgiliath, Gondors former capital, until it fell into the river Anduin when Osgiliath was pillaged during the kin-strife of Gondor
3 in Arnor:
- one on the Weathertop, later rescued before it was razed by the Witch-King; later, it perished together with Arvedui, last king of Arthedain, when his ship sank into the icy water of the bay of Forochel
- one at the capital at Arnuminas, which suffered the same fate as the former
- one at the hills near the elven realm of Lindon. This was not of much practical use, as it was only capable of seeing out to the west, at the great sea, and sometimes even at the shores of Valinor
One difficulty in translating "The Lord of the Rings" into D&D is that the LotR story is so linear (and so well known) that it may feel constricting to players. One way to avoid that might be to start the PCs out very differently than the characters in the books - perhaps they are stationed in Osgiliath, or they are Rohirrim, or they are some of Aragorn's fellow Rangers, or residents of Mirkwood or of the Lonely Mountain. (That said, it almost goes without saying that I would not let the players choose any of the characters from the books, but would require them to make up their own characters.) Perhaps the party happens upon a dying Frodo and one of the PCs must become the new ringbearer. Another way to avoid it would be to follow an earlier suggestion and place the game during the Second Age (or perhaps even the First).
I for one have always enjoyed playing non-spellcasters, so this kind of campaign appeals to me. If your players would balk at not being allowed to use magic (with the rather rare exception of certain magical items), then it may not be for them.
Actually, if anyone here has ever read the Silmarillion, Gandalf, Saruman, and the other wizards are actually all demigods.
Incorrect. They are Maia(r?), which are basically celestials - probably high level ones considering Gandalf could take on a Balrog [Balor equivalent] one-on-one and still win (albeit dying(?) at the end).
I note that some higher level celestials have automatic caster levels as a cleric. This, in my opinion, is the source/nature of Gandalf's power (and that of the other 'wizards' ').
Quite possible. The only spell you ever see Gandalf cast is "Light" when they go through Khazad-Dum.
Incorrect. He closes a door magically, and he fires some light spell at the Nazgul (searing light, maybe? Something effective against undead, I would guess). And remember the horses and riders that seemed to appear in the River Bruinen flood that hit the Nazgul. Gandalf admitted having "added a few touches of his own" in this matter. ;)
Btw, I read the "Item familiar" - section in the UA, and it SCREAMED LotR to me. :D I mean, seriously, that might explain the loss of power Sauron experienced when they took the ring from him (although it was probably even worse than that of an Item Familiar a lá UA).
I agree Middle Earth during the 3rd age is a low-magic setting, compared to how D&D has typically been played. In the direct cause-effect, tangible aspects it is very low. No Fireballs, Wishes, Bigby's anything, Summoning, Healing, etc none of the 'kewl' spells and magic. But magic is pervasive and subtle, think about it. Rings that keep entire forests vibrant until their owner leaves the land. A ring that not only grants an initially low level commoner Greater Invisibility, but essentially immortality (i.e. no max age), and Timeless Body, and he didn't even have to wear it to reap the benefits of it. Middle Earth was filled with magic it was far more abstract than what we're used to.
Ideally for traditional gamers make it in the 2nd age, cut the spell powers in half, (half number cast per day/known, and maybe even limit it to 4th or 5th level to keep more to the spirit of the books.) Of course give the wizards/sorcerers more hitpoints or something to compensate. Heck play it as somethin completely unrelated to LotR a different quest, find out was Radagast was doing or adventure with Bombadil, or something using the world but different characters entirely. It not like there isn't a wealth of material to start with.
Mixing the two could bring interesting results.
If you really look at it, Tolkien's books are not Low Magic. They are High Magic with Low availability. Magic is much more powerful in some regards then the DnD world we know simply because the spells available in Tolkien's world are more reserved for True Wizards which translates to Maiar. Look at the strom along the mountain pass in Fellowship. That was no natural storm but one conjured by Sauraman.
*snip*
What you would want to do is make magical items much more useful, and actual magic less useful. Also, Sauruman's storm was only in the movie. In the book, the *MOUNTAIN* itself caused the storm. Sauruman had nothing to do with it.
In the book, the *MOUNTAIN* itself caused the storm. Sauruman had nothing to do with it.
True, but this is a movie to d20 campaign conversion, not the novel (although it's certainly highly recommended the DM has a copy of the novel for frequent reference).
What does everyone think about the other LOTR d20 conversion? It's a sweet deal, no doubt.
completely off topic,
but I hate it when people use Nazgul to refer to the ringwraiths, Nazgul is when they are on the fell beasts flying around Minas Tirth. Ringwraiths is the rest of the time. end of rant. returning to your post previously in progress.Also, I think that Weapons of Legacy is almost hand crafted for a middle earth campaign.
The only reason we assume Middle-Earth is low magic is the absence of fireballs and power-word kills, but that does not mean they do not exist. A very good argument, however, can be brought against the idea that it is possible for these spells to exist, from the fact that Shadowfax is the fastest possible mode of transportation available to Gandalf, or Gandalf would do without him, which means that Gandalf cannot cast teleport and is, therefore, below 9th level as a wizard. In fact it is rather obvious that none of the characters have, as far as a exact reading of the book, any powerful magical ability at all. Consider the things they hold to be precious: the palantir would be nothing special if scrying was possible, Shadowfax would be useless if a teleport spell could get to a destination faster, hunger during a siege would not be the bane of great fortresses as permanent circles of teleportations would bring in men and supplies from elsewhere in Gondor, walls would be useless if you could use circles of teleportation to circumvent them, gates would be useless if the Witch-King of Angmar could use teleport to get in and open the gates himself after killing everyone defending them, and Gandalf would have destroyed the Ring by teleporting with Frodo into Sammath Naur, above the volcano, and having Frodo throw the it in immediately, thus ending the book on chapter two and any campaign in the first five minutes,
This logic justifies saying Middle-Earth is a low-magic world and to read it like such is the strict interpretation, departing not a step from the written world of the book. The only flaws with such an interpretation that I can see are that Gandalf has five or more levels of druid since he uses call lightning on Weathertop, and apparently one level of an arcane-casting class since he casts light and hold portal, and nothing else. Perhaps he is a solar or a planetar as befits his title of Maia, since he causes Theoden to forget his age, both mentally and physically, but he cannot bring back the dead or use his 9th level miracle spell to mimic teleport and appear above the volcano with Frodo, or fly there himself, or windwalk out of Orthanc, or anything else a 17th level cleric could do
Under a strict interpretation, the hobbits are first level and everyone else is somewhere between first and fifth at the most. Nowhere do we see anyone doing anything that cannot be explained with abilities at or under fifth level. All the ring does is grant immortality, perpetual youth, and greater invisibility, but the drawbacks, it desires to take over the world and dominate all living things including the wearer, minimizes its value so it could fit within the given budget for a character of fifth level, assuming you refuse Frodo extra wealth from the sale of his home and possessions and assume his cousins, the wealthy Tooks and Brandybucks, will not give him a decent sized loan. Since nothing other than the ring comes with brackets listing them to be anything special -Galadriel does not actually say to Legolas: 'Here is a +5 composite longbow, mighty +2'- they are not magical and are just bows and swords with nothing special about them whatsoever. Accoding to that train of thought, everything is in its first ten levels, except Gandalf and the Balrog. I mean, all Sauron can do is look at you funny, dealing no damage; he is just a benevolent red eyeball, is he not.
Such an interpretation really does not make for an exciting campaign, as the characters would kill a couple orcs and take out Mordor at level ten, but that is the logical extreme of interpreting the books with the idea that everything that is included is included to exclusion of all else.
If, however, one wishes to make everything a decent challenge, one could say that: everything that is excluded is excluded to the inclusion of all else. With the former, everything must be in the books to be in the campaign, with the latter, everything must be specifically excluded from the book to be kept out of the campaign. The difference is the existence of such things as high level wizards and decent spells, which neither appear in the books nor specifically do not exist, but are the bread and butter of most campaigns; the former bans them and latter embraces them.
Under that logic, you might play a normal campaign with normal spells and just assume that, for whatever reason, teleportation cannot be performed as of the first page of 'The Lord of the Rings' and neither can scrying be performed without a palantir, possibly due to the cloud that, I think, Galadriel mentions when she meets the Fellowship for the first time in Lorien. All you have to do is place the challenge rating of Gandalf at 30, Sauron at 33, and so forth. It does not contradict the book and therefore is perfectly reasonable.
In addition, prohibit teleportation and other means of long distance travel and communication and suddenly, everything makes perfect sense. My level 5 wizard still flings a fireball and if he flings it at Aragorn, Aragorn might well be a level 25 ranger with a prestige class and improved evasion, so Aragorn takes no damage and kills him and his party. Unfortunately, the best escape spell is summon mount, so those that flee get killed pretty quick anyway.
With that in mind, everything the Fellowship does during the quest makes sense to a much greater degree. Why did they walk all the way? They could not jump on phantom steeds or teleport to Mount Doom because those spells do not work in Middle Earth. Why was Gandalf unable to give advice through a sending or tell Aragorn that he had returned from the dead? There were no sending spells. Why go to the trouble of battering down the gates of Minas Tirith and Helm's Deep? There was no way to move an army inside because all the circle of teleportation spells have been banished to another world.
In summary, my point is that the only reason the thread has assumed that it is low magic is the absence of any obvious magic. Instead of saying that magic is not there, we could say that it is there and is simply left off screen for matters of taste. Basically, my thesis is that All that is excluded is excluded to the inclusion of everything else.
On another note, I liked the book so much I could not make a working mechanic for a low-level campaign made from the books; in my mind, the characters were to powerful for anything short of epic, which, due to time constraints, I could not do. Eventually, I abandoned the idea of using the books as the cut-scenes and set it 17 years earlier in the history of Middle-Earth, using the system I described above. I think that this adaptation for a low-magic Middle-Earth is great and the only way to make a campaign out of the books without having to make level 26 goblin warriors fight the party in every room of Moria. If I ever have enough time free from class, I'll use it.
The thoughts on the thread were integral to thinking out the content of this. Thanks.
The only reason we assume Middle-Earth is low magic is the absence of fireballs and power-word kills, but that does not mean they do not exist.
No. Middle Earth draws heavily from mythology and traditional one at that, unlike D&D which is a genre of its own, born after LotR. Fireballs, power words, etc. do feel correct in the setting. They are not part of it. Mages in mythology don't fling fireballs, as far as I remember. Not Finnish, not English, not that of the Germans.
And my favorite part. In The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien when asked about the fourth age, he mentioned he saw humans creating "secret cults" of magic. That leaves the door wide open for whatever magic the DM wants to use.
Does anybody remember seeing the article by an old writer of the game in a really really old Dragon Magazine (circa early 80s) that said if you try to play D&D in Middle Earth, you are playing the game wrong? Very heavy handed article for an RPG.
Just my thoughts.
Wolfram
Sting: Sting should be a SPIDER-bane weapon, as it was presumably created to combat the spawn of Ungoliant.
Perhaps, but I'd keep the orc/goblinoid bane feature, since its real name in Elvish was Orcrist, meaning "goblin (orc) cleaver".
completely off topic, but I hate it when people use Nazgul to refer to the ringwraiths, Nazgul is when they are on the fell beasts flying around Minas Tirth. Ringwraiths is the rest of the time. end of rant. returning to your post previously in progress
Tolkein geek nitpick: err.. no. Nazgul is Black Speech for ringwraith. Nazg = Ring and Gul = Wraith (in this context... black sorcery more generally). The two words are direct translations of each other and can be used interchangeably.
A couple of points; I would caution against running a group of PCs through the actual ring quest. Railroad city and everyone already knows how it turns out! Use middle earth, but set your plot elsewhere.
With Magic, it is probably a lost cause trying to fit middle earth magic into the normal DnD mode. It is very different. The setting is not at all low magic, but it is different magic. It is not Vancian, and it doesn't fit well into the DnD power grades. The Witch King cannot teleport, has no spells to destroy the walls of Minas Tirith, and uses only the most minor of blasting spells (in the book, he breaks Frodo's sword at the Fords of Bruinen). On the other hand, he can cause despair in an entire city, inflame an entire army of many tens of thousands with battle fury, kill people just by being near them and he claims the ability to trap and torture souls. None of this fits well into the DnD system.
Of the other magic using characters, very few seem to cast spells as such. Most just do what they do, and the fact that what they do is magic doesn't really seem to occur to them. Galadriel keeps an entire realm semi out of time, gazes across middle earth's past present and future, changes appearance, reads minds, speaks mind to mind and claims not to understand what people mean by "magic". No one seems to have spell slots they expend, power points they spend or anything like that. There are mentions of spells existing, off screen as it were, but if you are going to produce a middle earth magic system, you want to be junking the basic set one completely. The only one I've seen that looked anything like appropriate was Sovereign Stone, and even that would need a lot of tweaking.
Magic in ME is almost always divine by D&D standards Gandalf does things like produce flame (lighting pine cones in The Hobbit), light (everywhere
), healing (merry), prot from elements (fighting Balrog), turn undead (driving away the flying Nazgul) etc. Elrond is similar.Yes there is "arcane" magic but it is this that is low level in ME (the ring's invis ability, for example).
As for swords, the longsword is what Boromir uses. Most others are bastard swords except Anduril which is, if anything, a fully fledged +5 holy avenger defending 2 hander (have you SEEN how big that thing is?!).
One thing that's important to remember is that Gandalf's bosses forbade him (and the other wizards) from directly challenging Sauron. In fact, Gandalf could have directly challenged Sauron to a straight-up fight (although the implication is he would have lost) but his true power was veiled in Middle Earth. In fact, using that power is what got Saruman in trouble.
Gandalf does throw lightning (at least) around in one section of the book: at Weathertop, before the Fellowship gets there, he gets attacked by the Nine and totally lights them up. In fact, it's such an impressive display that Frodo (several miles away) gets to see the lightning cover the sky for, if I remember correctly, a couple hours.
There is a Lord of the Rings game that uses the CODA system. A gaming system VERY much like D&D. The game is published by Decipher and is VERY good
I would recommend that anyone seriously considering running a LOTR campaign try and check this book out. The CODA system isn't quite like D&D, but a competent DM could easily sort out the details in conversion. The most valuable portion of the book is it's consideration of the implications of magic in Middle Earth. It draws conclusions from the books and would doubtless provide a wealth of information to aid in creating a D&D flavored Middle Earth that remains true to its roots.
As for swords, the longsword is what Boromir uses. Most others are bastard swords except Anduril which is, if anything, a fully fledged +5 holy avenger defending 2 hander (have you SEEN how big that thing is?!).
In the films. It's unlikely that Tolkien actually envisioned ANY of his swords as hand-and-a-half or two-hand swords, considering the time frame he based the story on.
Tolkein geek nitpick: err.. no. Nazgul is Black Speech for ringwraith. Nazg = Ring and Gul = Wraith (in this context... black sorcery more generally). The two words are direct translations of each other and can be used interchangeably.
Correct.
A couple of points; I would caution against running a group of PCs through the actual ring quest. Railroad city and everyone already knows how it turns out! Use middle earth, but set your plot elsewhere.
Agreed. Middle-earth is such a rich, history-driven, COMPLETE world that confining yourself just to the happenings describe in a single story is ludicrous and borderline criminally stupid. Enjoy Middle-earth, rather than just regurgitating something Tolkien wrote. Experience his beloved setting through a different lens than the one everyone is already incredibly familiar with.
With Magic, it is probably a lost cause trying to fit middle earth magic into the normal DnD mode.
Heartily agreed.
Perhaps, but I'd keep the orc/goblinoid bane feature, since its real name in Elvish was Orcrist, meaning "goblin (orc) cleaver".
Uhm, no. STING is a long-knife (human-sized dagger, at least), presumably from Gondolin. As a matter of fact, Bilbo named it. It has no other name. Orcrist is the sister-sword to Glamdring. It was carried by Thorin, and was interred with his body when he died. The two weapons have no relation to one another except for being found in the same Troll-hord.
he only flaws with such an interpretation that I can see are that Gandalf has five or more levels of druid since he uses call lightning on Weathertop
Does he? I'm pretty sure Tolkien never said "And then Gandalf summoned his power as a fifth level Druid and cast "Call Lightning" at the Wraiths before him!"
I suggest you read Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG core book, which beautifully explains how magic functions in Middle-earth, and precisely WHY Middle-earth is considered a low-magic setting. To bottom line it for you: You simply cannot immediately equate Gandalf doing X with D&D spell level Y.
Middle earth is almost ebberon-ish. Lots and lots and lots of low level common, everyday magic
Really? Where? I don't see spellslinging as all that common. As a matter of fact, it seems that 99% of the population of Middle-earth wouldn't even be able to cast a 0-level spell.
but I hate it when people use Nazgul to refer to the ringwraiths, Nazgul is when they are on the fell beasts flying around Minas Tirth. Ringwraiths is the rest of the time
See kintire's post, which I quoted at the top of this post.
To my eye one of the biggest problem encountered with people trying to convert Middle-earth to D&D is that many of you have no concept of how magic functions in Middle-earth (and I don't mean any offense by that). Rather, many of you try to place 'spells' in Middle-earth directly with their D&D equivalents without any thought to the actual nature of magic in Middle-earth.
Magic in Middle-earth does not function IN ANY WAY like it does in D&D. Direct correlations are beyond absurd. The magic of Middle-earth is so intrinsically different from D&D that even remote correlations are bound for failure and misinterpretation.
Middle-earth is a world permeated by a 'magic' of a very subtle nature, and true spellcasting is rarest of the rare. Great deeds are accomplished by frail characters, and three arrows is more than sufficient to slay a great warrior. This is not a world that translates to D&D with minimal effort. This kind of translation requires a LOT of thought and even more care to keep in mind all of the differences inherent in the two 'settings.'
And Arkano.. I don't believe I am mistaken about the Palantiri. From the Encyclopedia or Arda:
"There were originally seven palantíri in Middle-earth (there were evidently others in Aman, too). Three of these were definitely lost or destroyed: those of Annúminas, Amon Sûl and Osgiliath. The Stone of Elostirion in the Tower Hills was taken back to Aman on the Ring-bearers' White Ship. The Anor-stone and the Orthanc-stone both survived into the Fourth Age.
The fate of the seventh, the Ithil-stone, is not completely certain. It was in Barad-dûr during the War of the Ring, and was most likely destroyed in the downfall of Sauron. The substance used to make the palantíri, though, was exceptionally strong, and there remains a very slight chance that the Ithil-stone also survived into the Fourth Age."
I believe Tolkien mentions at some point in his Letters that the Osgiliath palantir was also in Sauron's keeping. I could have been mistaken about that, but I don't have the inclination to hunt down that piece of information to see if I was correct or not. Suffice to say, I don't -believe- I was mistaken.
Perhaps, but I'd keep the orc/goblinoid bane feature, since its real name in Elvish was Orcrist, meaning "goblin (orc) cleaver".
Actually, that was the sword given to Thorin Oakenshield, not Sting...
In D&D terms I'd say spellcasting magic is very, very limited indeed -- the only people who seem to really be able to do it are very old, very powerful entities that hobbits, humans, and even the younger elves couldn't hope to ever emulate. People like the wizards and very old high elves like Galadriel and Sauron himself and that's about it -- people who literally existed in an earlier age of the world and can remember the "song" that was sung to bring the world into existence, i.e. the magical language that controls the world. This is special, mythological stuff here -- some random human attempting to learn how to sing the ancient songs of the Ainur so he can throw fireballs at bad guys is not only being foolish and presumptuous but possibly blasphemous, and there sure as hell won't be anyone to teach him. If I were running this sort of thing I would put all spellcasting classes absolutely out of the reach of PCs and fudge the way spellcasting worked in major ways so as to preserve the mysterious, hidden nature of it. (No one gets to see what Gandalf's spell list actually is, for instance.)
What other magic there is could, sure, be relatively common, but it'd be magic in the form of supernatural or spell-like abilities, either inherent in creatures themselves -- yeah, elves seem lighter than anything their size should be, but that's just how they are; they certainly don't think of the way they are as "magic" any more than humans think their superior physical strength is somehow "magical" -- or in the items they make, the rings being the best example. It's true that the magic items are often the easiest things to translate into D&D terms, and it's also telling that, in D&D terms, D&D has so much higher magic than LotR that direct translations of LotR items tend to seem kind of weak and pointless. The legendary Orcrist, for instance, doesn't really seem to have that much going for it other than an enhancement bonus (possibly an enhancement bonus only against orcs) and that built-in detect evil (or possibly just detect orcs) ability, and yet it's very clear that Orcrist is in LotR terms an artifact-level weapon.
A few nitpicks: LotR trolls are nothing like D&D trolls. They are far more similar to ogres or giants, plus a vulnerability to sunlight. The lanky regenerating troll is something Gygax took from a Poul Anderson short story, and that lanky regenerating troll exists in heavy competition with the very different big stone thing troll of LotR.
The preservative properties of the air and water rings are way more important than their elemental powers, as is the soul-stirring power of the fire ring. None of them translate well into game terms, though I sort of like the idea of an aura of courage being used for Narya's power. (Possibly also some kind of limited Charm effect, I dunno.)
The One Ring does not *only* develop its godlike powers on Sauron's finger alone, else he wouldn't fear its loss so much. Someone else of similar levels of power -- hell, let's just say someone with spellcasting class levels -- can attempt to master the ring and wrest it under his own control, which should be a somewhat difficult process (caster level check against the ring's will save?) that results in his or her becoming entirely the ring's master. This doesn't just entail getting Sauron's magic powers what with the Wish spell and everything, but also having direct control over all Sauron's armies and the various magical mechanisms he has lying around Middle-Earth. Gandalf and Galadriel both make it pretty clear that, if they put the Ring on, they'd have a pretty good chance of winning control over it -- and it over them -- and would then be able to easily destroy Sauron, assume his place and rule the entire world. That's why the thing is oh so very tempting.
Finally, Tom Bombadil a mere druid? Hell no. Tom Bombadil has power over the barrow wight -- what could be interpreted as a fairly high-level turn undead ability -- and, moreover, he's completely immune to the ring's effects and can actually exert some level of control over *it*. Add the whole immortality thing into the mix, and it's pretty clear that whatever he is, it's not human, and it's quite wise and powerful, but in an alien and difficult-to-understand way. Nature spirit is about as close as we can get to it, I think. That or an avatar of an outright deity, a Vala (Aule the Smith is a common hypothesis) who's taken some sort of vow of noninterference.
And swords like Orcrist and Glamdring are rather powerful - capable of penetrating magic+good DR, even epic+good (think advanced Balors for balrogs)
Magic in ME is quite powerful but very limited in manifestation. Nothing flashy, with very few (coughcough Gandalf coughcough) exceptions.
1st, the issue of the Valar and Maiar. These are not "gods" or "demigods". Keep in mind that Tolkien was a devout Catholic. The only God was Eru. The Valar and Maiar are better thought of as Greater and Lesser angels (or fallen angels/demons) that lesser men mistook for gods. Melkor was a Vala and Sauron was a Maia. The Balrogs and Tom Bombadil were also Maiar, as were the Istari.
2nd, Gandalf limited his use of magic because of his mandate from Manwe. There have been several postings of examples of his magic use, the only one's I haven't seen mentioned is his flash in the Great Goblin's throne room (The Hobbit) and his failed efforts to open the doors of Moria using spells (FotR).
Someone mentioned magic not being used in Middle Earth by Elves because it was only a power of a few, or that people just thought it was magical when it was not. That was not the case. The elves who were asked about magic thought it strange and did not consider magic as something magical, not because they did not use actual magic, but because it was so common and inherent to them that they did not consider it any more exotic than a well-placed bank shot. Just because the very narrow point of view of a very small group of people in a book covering a single lifetime in a history of thousands of years and miles of land does not mention every spell and "class" doesn't mean it is excluded from possibility (though the style of magic is certainly different in ME than in D&D).
Ok, geek rant done.
Perhaps, but I'd keep the orc/goblinoid bane feature, since its real name in Elvish was Orcrist, meaning "goblin (orc) cleaver".
I support your hypothesis, but your reasoning is flawed. Sting was not Orcrist. However, Sting does light up whenever orcs are nearby. I would say that this implies that it was made especially for killing them.
Gandalf limited his use of magic because of his mandate from Manwe. There have been several postings of examples of his magic use, the only one's I haven't seen mentioned is his flash in the Great Goblin's throne room (The Hobbit) and his failed efforts to open the doors of Moria using spells (FotR).
Also he had a more powerful version of the fire seeds spell (or maybe he used the fire seeds spell, then manipulated the fire created with a different spell, or with Narya) and a kamikaze attack that would have turned him into a massive bolt of lightning. Both from the warg fight in The Hobbit.
It functions in a low-magic world where wizards are few and far apart, and their powers small in comparison to the standard fare of a high-level sorcerer.
If I may, the wizards of middle earth, when sent from the east, were told not to use their full powers in middle earth. But in fact they were all Maiar (lesser gods) and had they been given full power they could **** anything they looked at. Gandalf could have soloed Sauron if his power was truly unleashed.
Ps: I didn’t read all the replies so sorry if someone already commented on this :D.
Legolas felled a Nazgul (the dragon-like creature ridden by a Ring-Wraith) with a single shot {BTW: in Darkness, with naught but a vague shape as a target} from a bow given to him in Lothlorien. Maybe those Elves knew something about crafting Bane, Holy, (add your own enchantments), +5 weapons. How low-magic is that?
The Fellowship was beset by Wargs during the journey from Rivendell. Gandalf conjured a fire that not only destroyed the Wargs, but eliminated their bodies before the morning light. How low-magic is that?
Gandalf's Ring was the "Ring of Fire", but the Fire that it served was the Eternal Flame of ERU, The ONE. "God", in other words, and the spirit that belief in such a benevolent power can inspire. Never to conquer, never to dominate, but to always inspire! How low-magic is that?
Boromir, for example, held out for a while against more than a hundred orcs. Most of those orcs were archers. He did this without any magical gear, and with barely any armor (a helm and shield at the most). Even assuming the orcs were 1st level warriors, that's not something a low level fighter could do.
Legolas, of course, never missed, and, as far as I can remember, never failed to kill his target with a single arrow.
Gandalf was far from "low magic." He even used a specific spell to bind the door in Moria, and the Balrog used a counterspell. The door exploded and the whole chamber collapsed. They fought almost continuously for more than week, and seriously damaged the mountain-top in their final battle.
Yet back the old days, folks claimed Gandalf was only a 5th level wizard...
Murazor, the Witch-king (male Númenórean, powerful sorcerer)
Khamul, the Easterling (gained a bonus against elves, ran the Dark Tower until the appearance of the Mouth of Sauron)
Dwar, the Unforgiving (Bred the war wolves and various hounds)
Ji Indur, the Outcast (Very able politician, ruled the Mûmakni people (corrupting them) for 1261 years)
Akhorahil, the Blind Sorcerer (replaced eyes with two magical gems, became a *very* powerful sorcerer)
Hoarmurath, the Ice King (Slew his sister and overthrew matriarchal Urdar government, became the First King)
Adunaphel the Quiet (female Númenórean, exceptionally beautiful)
Ren the Unclean (was once the Senechal of Angmar and the right hand of Murazor, learned dark magic from Murazor himself)
Uvatha, the Messenger (Variag, very skilled horseman)
I think y'all are making LotR characters and items a bit weaker than they should be. Of course, it's very hard to mix D&D rules with other worlds, but LotR characters were powerful.
Boromir, for example, held out for a while against more than a hundred orcs. Most of those orcs were archers. He did this without any magical gear, and with barely any armor (a helm and shield at the most). Even assuming the orcs were 1st level warriors, that's not something a low level fighter could do.
Legolas, of course, never missed, and, as far as I can remember, never failed to kill his target with a single arrow.
Gandalf was far from "low magic." He even used a specific spell to bind the door in Moria, and the Balrog used a counterspell. The door exploded and the whole chamber collapsed. They fought almost continuously for more than week, and seriously damaged the mountain-top in their final battle.
Yet back the old days, folks claimed Gandalf was only a 5th level wizard...
Beat me to it. Aragorn and Boromir were both hardcore fighters and Legolas and Gimli weren't exactly weenies, either. Frodo is the highest level hobbit (6?), next Merrry, then Sam then Pippin. And I have no ideas on how to stat Gandalf. And the mounts of the Ringwraiths were Fell Beasts, not Nazgul. Nazg (ring) gul (wraith). It is as literal a translation as possible. Sheesh.
Burning Wheel, another fantasy RPG, has deed points (they are rare), which can be used to double your dice pool for single roll. The equivalent would be giving around a +20 bonus in D&D. This does not solve damage, however.
A game of attrition has problems with instant kills.
Why not a fanfic or non-official LdtR 2.0 (like ultimate line of Marvel Comics)?
But what happens after the destruction of one ring? (the next age).
Tolkien´s heroes don’t use magic It is called ¨charisma¨, a divine gift, to benefit the community.
And I like that victory is by your effort and sacrifice, not by superpowers that make it easier.
D&D is bad at single shots felling stuff. See Smaug for similar case.
Burning Wheel, another fantasy RPG, has deed points (they are rare), which can be used to double your dice pool for single roll. The equivalent would be giving around a +20 bonus in D&D. This does not solve damage, however.
A game of attrition has problems with instant kills.
You could use the Wound/Vitality point thing from UA and the Star Wars game. Basically, if you get a crit, you could kill a dragon with one hit.
Then, you make a Spellcaster class that has Talents as a class feature and Magic Blood as a prereq et voila!
Beat me to it. Aragorn and Boromir were both hardcore fighters and Legolas and Gimli weren't exactly weenies, either. Frodo is the highest level hobbit (6?), next Merrry, then Sam then Pippin. And I have no ideas on how to stat Gandalf.
I always figured that the fame and exploits of the main LotR characters was similar to how lvl 12-16 characters are described--best in the region, well known, etc. I forget where, but I remember reading some fluff in one of the (core?) books where it mentions something along those lines.
I always pictured (in my head) Aragorn as an actual ranger with the other three as fighters, all around level 15. I think it's just more fun to picture them as such. Level 15 = badassery. Aragorn is probably highest level, but Legolas has the +LA for being an elf thrown in there. I figure Legolas has a PrC like Order of the Bow Initiate or Deepwood Sniper or something. I dunno. Would Faramir be a Scout? I think so.
P.S. George Washington was a level 7 Expert/level 8 Marshal. After his presidency he gained 10 levels in President (it's like Aristocrat, but a PrC). Being the first president earns you some mad experience points. Too bad he didn't take Perfect Health, though.
P.S. what's the Marshal?
So, we end up with something like this for the Fellowship:
Aragorn: Gestalt Fighter-Scout 15
Boromir: Fighter 11/Purple Dragon Knight (Captain of the White Tower?) 5
Legolas: Rogue 9/Mirkwood Archer 7
Gimli: Barbarian 8/Fighter 7
Gandalf: Maiar Druid 4/Bard 4 OR Druid-Bard 9/Spellcaster 10
Frodo: Commoner 3/Rogue 3
Sam, Merry and Pippin: Commoner 3
Then we have all the other NPCs to stat. Maybe:
Elrond: Fighter 8/Spellcaster 10/Elf Paragon 3
Arwen: Druid 7/Aristocrat 3
Sauron: Paladin 10/Blackguard 10/Spellcaster 10
etc...
Then we have all the other NPCs to stat. Maybe:
Elrond: Fighter 8/Spellcaster 10/Elf Paragon 3
Arwen: Druid 7/Aristocrat 3
Sauron: Paladin 10/Blackguard 10/Spellcaster 10
etc...
Far too low a level, at least for Elrond and Sauron. Elrond is like lvl 30 and Sauron is like Divine Rank 10 (based on the thread I linked to in my last post). Arwen is a 6th Aristocrat.
I once ran a campaign that drew very heavily from LOTR although did not set it in Middle Earth. It was basically using the system of rings, guarded at that time by the Nazgul and I was therefore very interested in seeing your translation of the magical items. All in all for me a very enjoyable thread to read. Thank you to everyone who contributed.
Anywho.
I think that the most effective way to best translate DnD to LOTR is to put it in the old silmarillion days. Make the characters Elven Princes and Dwarven legends and stuff like that. LoTR doesn't really do the whole "Peasant Joe slayed a dragon last week" thing. But if an elven prince does it, its totally cool. Plus, since the period isn't as well documented as the Fellowship era you have a lot more narrative freedom with your adventures.
[INDENT]Lord of the Rings is more or less the foundation of modern D&D. The latter rose from the former, although the two are now so estranged that to reunite them would be an act of savage madness. Imagine a gaggle of modern hack-n-slash roleplayers who had somehow never been exposed to the original Tolkien mythos, and then imagine taking those players and trying to introduce them to Tolkien via a D&D campaign.[/INDENT]
Hilarity ensues. The comic strip is called DM of the Rings. The strip uses frames from the actual films, carefully selected for appropriate facial expressions. -A
If I may, the wizards of middle earth, when sent from the east, were told not to use their full powers in middle earth. But in fact they were all Maiar (lesser gods) and had they been given full power they could **** anything they looked at. Gandalf could have soloed Sauron if his power was truly unleashed.
Ps: I didn’t read all the replies so sorry if someone already commented on this :D.
Gandalf and Sauron are both Maiar, essentially lesser angelic powers under Eru Iluvatar, the One Lord of All. From that fact that they're both Maiar there's no basis to presume that Gandalf could beat Sauron one-on-one. We do know that Saruman was able to imprison Gandalf the Grey, which suggests that Gandalf began weaker than Saruman. Gandalf the White, however, bests Saruman in a contest of wills at the Orthanc in front of witnesses, suggesting that Gandalf returned with more power than he'd had previously. At one point Gandalf the White tells Gimli that Gandalf is the most perilous being that Gimil would ever meet unless Gimli is broght before the Dark Lord (Sauron) himself, against suggesting the Gandalf the White is more powerful than Saruman (who's another Maia, by the way).
Later though Gandalf mentions that against some powers he had not yet been tested, referring to the Lord of the Nazgul--the leader of the ringwraiths, once known as the Witch-King of Angmar. After the forces of Sauron break the gates of Minas Tirith, Gandalf contests the attemped entry by the Lord of the Nazgul. While the Lord of the Nazgul doesn't pass the threshhold, we're given the impression that the battle between the two hadn't finished and that the Lord of the Nazgul left to deal with the surprise arrival of the forces of Rohan. Still the fact that he didn't pass the threshhold suggests at a minimum that he hadn't been able to simply roll over Gandalf.
Still, unless we imagine that Sauron isn't much more powerful than the Lord of the Nazgul, which seems unlikely to me, it seems unlikely that even Gandalf the White could have beaten Sauron one-on-one.
@TheCobra: Back in the early era of Dragon Magazine someone wrote an article titled, "Gandalf Was a 5th-Level Wizard" in which he demonstrated that all of the obvious magic that Gandalf did could be explained by spells of 3rd level or lower. The door-closing spell was a simple 1st-level hold portal. The riders on the waves came from a simple 2nd-level phantasmal forces spell. I can't even recall what magic Gandalf did that reproduced a 3rd-level spell.
@AmericanYeti: I'm fairly certain that Gygax did take the ranger class from Aragorn (and Faramir). The original ranger class did not get special archery or two-weapon fighting abilities. The original ranger was pretty much just a wood-crafty fighter with a few spells. I believe that the spells were designed to replicate Aragorn's healing craft, which as he said wasn't as good as Elrond's (which we might view as more in line with the full healing abilities of an original D&D cleric). It wasn't until after the Drizzst novels that the ranger become a two-weapon combatant.
Lord of the Rings did serve as a major influence on original D&D. It's no coincidence that we find the same basic races (humans, elves, dwarves, hobbits, goblins and orcs) in both. The elves, dwarves and hobbits of original D&D all have pretty much stereotypical Middle Earth personality descriptions. The inspirations for several evil types of dragons came from Middle Earth too. The red dragon with its hoard of coins and other treasure piled in a bed pretty much comes straight from Smaug. A mention of a cold drake ("drake' being the English equivalent of the French word "dragon" that the Normans brought with them when they conquered England) in the Hobbit probably inspired the cold-breathing white dragon. I suspect that Ancalagon the Black, the greatest of the winged dragons, mentioned in The Lord of the Rings, inspired Gygax to create the black dragon. The balor demon started out as a Type VI demon actually called a balrog.
D&D also abounds with magic out of Middle Earth. Swords that shed light clearly come from Orcrist and Glamdring (and Sting!). The boots of elvenkind and cloaks of elvenkind clearly come from the boots and cloaks that Galadriel gave to the Fellowship. The One Ring may have inspired the ring of invisibility (and in turn the spell of the same name). Probably others can think of other creatures or magic items that came more or less directly from Middle Earth.
The spellcasting system, however, Gygax took from a Jack Vance short story, in which the protagonist mentions something about being able to memorize many weaker spells or a few more powerful spells. Gygax fleshed out this passing comment into a precise system of spell-levels and spells per level (overusing that word "level" as we all know) that remains with us today.
Gygax's mechanical spell system doesn't fit very well with the mysterious magic of Middle Earth, where most of the magic happens behind the scenes. Thus, despite all the elements of Middle Earth that appear in D&D, it's very hard to use the D&D rules to play a campaign set in Middle Earth without losing much of the flavor of Middle Earth.
My own campaign world was heavily influence at first by Middle Earth. There's a creator deity and two lesser divine races. The gods of the various pantheons come from the lesser of the two divine races. In the distant past the beings of the great divine race warred with two of their members who turned evil, and ultimately defeated the two evils ones, but at a heavy price for the world. Now they tend to remain removed from the world, intervening only indirectly and through intermediaries. Like Middle Earth my campaign world has greater elves and greater humans who became involved in these early wars.
Unlike in Middle Earth, however, the history of my campaign world is replete with stories of powerful (and obvious) magic that resembles familiar spells of the D&D game. The equivalents of Gandalf or Saruman can and have at some point cast meteor swarms and the like. Decades before the Epic Level Handbook introduced an epic spell called Raise Island, I had an unimaginably powerful great elven wizard do the very same thing. So the high and obvious magic of the D&D world has always been part of my otherwise often Tolkeinesque world.
I think it would require an extremely deft touch for someone to use the D&D rules to run a campaign set in Middle Earth. The DM and players would all need to have an intimate familiarity with Middle Earth. It might be easier to simply use a different campaign world that had some of the flavor of Middle Earth without having to worry about making vast rules revisions to replicate Middle Earth mechanically.
I agree wholeheartedly with the fact that LoTR characters are pretty low in level as far as the DnD system goes. Even Borimere's famous last stand is pretty easily accomplishable by a 6th level character. Orc's are 1/2 CR creatures. Even if you put a hundred of them against a level 5 or 6 Fighter he'll last for quite some time. Remember that those guys were archer builds and you can only be surrounded by 8 men at a time. I don't think lasting for couple minutes against 1/2 CR archers in hand to hand is anything that requires an 18th level Gestalt Fighter/Barbarian, or anything like that. I honestly would challenge anyone to come up with ANYTHING that occurred in the novels that couldn't be achieved by a group of 5 to 6th level characters. Gandalf’s light magic, Aragorn's healing voodoo, Borimere's last stand, even Sam's critical hit against an awakened Dire Spider. It's all low level stuff and just because it was AWESOME doesn't mean it's high level.
P.S. Elrond and Sauron were NOT level 30 (and Divine Rank 10!?!?!?). That is literally ridiculous. If Sauron or Elrond were that high level the novels would have been about 3 pages long. People would have been teleporting to mount doom, Legend Lore-ing the exact location of the Ring, and Sauron would have been altering reality to just kill anyone who got within a hundred mile radius. Level 10 maximum. Maximum.
P.S. Elrond and Sauron were NOT level 30 (and Divine Rank 10!?!?!?). That is literally ridiculous. If Sauron or Elrond were that high level the novels would have been about 3 pages long. People would have been teleporting to mount doom, Legend Lore-ing the exact location of the Ring, and Sauron would have been altering reality to just kill anyone who got within a hundred mile radius. Level 10 maximum. Maximum.
Of course, it's not like they all have a million defenses against all those things because they're high level. And what about when Gandalf fights and kills a Balrog one handed? Or killing the Witch King? I'm not just saying that only the fellowship is high level. Those weren't just out-of-the-box orcs that Boromir was fighting, they were highly trained Uruk-hai. I can agree that they were much different from a normal D&D party, but they weren't low level. Except for the hobbits.
Helluva post Celestialbarbarian. Well said.
Thanks.
I agree wholeheartedly with the fact that LoTR characters are pretty low in level as far as the DnD system goes. Even Borimere's famous last stand is pretty easily accomplishable by a 6th level character. Orc's are 1/2 CR creatures. Even if you put a hundred of them against a level 5 or 6 Fighter he'll last for quite some time. Remember that those guys were archer builds and you can only be surrounded by 8 men at a time. I don't think lasting for couple minutes against 1/2 CR archers in hand to hand is anything that requires an 18th level Gestalt Fighter/Barbarian, or anything like that. I honestly would challenge anyone to come up with ANYTHING that occurred in the novels that couldn't be achieved by a group of 5 to 6th level characters. Gandalf’s light magic, Aragorn's healing voodoo, Borimere's last stand, even Sam's critical hit against an awakened Dire Spider. It's all low level stuff and just because it was AWESOME doesn't mean it's high level.
Gandalf returning from the dead more powerful than before he'd died sounds something on the order of someone using a true resurrection on him, after which he leveled up with the experience he earned killing the balrog (and perhas from other parts of the adventure, say from leaving Rivendell with the Fellowship through falling in Moria). Of course that's presumably the Valar resurrecting him, so that might not say anything about his own "level." He does break King Theoden out from under Grima Wormtongue's spell, perhaps replicating either a dispel magic (oh, that could be the 3rd-level spell that makes him at least 5th level :D) or break enchantment (a 5th-level spell requiring him to be at least 9th-level).
At one point Saruman dumps some sort of fire on the ents. Is this just some sort of chemical fire, or is it magic? We don't know. He's a wizard though, so magic seems like a viable explanation. Could that fire be the equivalent of fireballs or more powerful delayed blast fireball? Sure. At another point he blasts open a breach in Helm's Deep. Does he use gunpowder as some have conjectured, or some sort of magic? Again magic seems like a viable explanation. It could be the equivalent of a disintegrate spell, only delivered from many miles away, perhaps requiring the equivalent of Epic Spellcasting to get that sort of range.
I suspect that if people try hard enough they can come up with other examples of high-level magic in the book.
That's not really the point though; the point is that the subtle, mystical, behind-the-curtain magic of the book doesn't translate well into the obvious, mechanical, center-stage magic system of D&D. P.S. Elrond and Sauron were NOT level 30 (and Divine Rank 10!?!?!?). That is literally ridiculous. If Sauron or Elrond were that high level the novels would have been about 3 pages long. People would have been teleporting to mount doom, Legend Lore-ing the exact location of the Ring, and Sauron would have been altering reality to just kill anyone who got within a hundred mile radius. Level 10 maximum. Maximum.
I'm sure that many of us back in the days of "Gandalf Was a 5th-Level MU" enjoyed the humor in the article; I doubt that many of us took it seriously.
Let's stick with Gandalf for a moment. In The Hobbit he resorts to trickery to dispose of three trolls instead of just toasting them with some fire spells. In D&D three trolls create an encounter of 9th level. But the balrog he kills in (or above) Moria represents an encounter of 20th level. Of course the troll and balor of 3.5 don't really replicate the trolls and balrogs of Middle Earth (although the balor still resembles the balrog greatly) but more importantly, the wizard class in 3.5 doesn't replicate Gandalf the wizard at all.
Now maybe Gandalf could have just killed the three trolls with no trouble. After all, on Weathertop he uses either fire or lightning magic that's powerful enough that Aragorn and the hobbits can see it from many miles away. You might recall that when Gandalf sets on fire the piece of wood on the slopes of the Celebrindal, he comments that anyone for miles around will know that "Gandalf is here." He seems to try to veil his power at almost all times, using more subtle methods to achieve his goals, partly out of a desire to hide himself and his companions from the watchful eyes of enemy spies.
There seems little doubt that the Valar could, if they chose to intervene directly, defeat Sauron and eject him from Middle Earth as they did to his one-time boss, the ultimate evil being, Melkor the Morgoth at the end of the First Age. During the Second Age they intervene directly to cause Numenor to sink beneath the waves, albeit without putting in a personal appearance. On both occasions their intervention damaged Middle Earth, and they did so only reluctantly. In the Third Age they seem to have sent the Maiar known as Istari, or wizards, to aid the Free Peoples of Middle Earth against Sauron. The Valar seem to want them to aid the Free People more through counsel and morale-boosting than through power. Thus the wizards rarely, if ever, reveal their true power--battling the ringwraiths on Weathertop being one of those rare occasions. Elrond and Galadriel also seem to have great power, being able to keep their realms safe from the Enemy, at least so long as he doesn't regain the One Ring. Outside of their own realms they no longer operate. Whether they could or not we can't know. Perhaps they could, but if they did so they might risk the destruction of the realms they protect.
Even Sauron hesitates to have his ringwraiths operate too openly at first, for fear of giving away his plans prematurely. It's also possible that at most times he works indirectly through intermediaries rather than coming forth himself so as not to provoke a more direct response from the Valar. We just don't know. We have evidence that at some point a couple of non-divine beings (Gil-Galad and Elendil) were able to defeat him in melee combat--at the cost of their own lives--but then we don't know anything about what "level" or "class" Gil-Galad and Elendil might have had. Perhaps they were "30th-level fighters" and Sauron was a "30th-level wizard" and therefore foolish to come out and face them in melee combat. The "mechanics" of Middle Earth, if Middle Earth even had mechanics, are hidden behind a mystical veil.
I don't think there's much point in trying to identify the "level" of characters in the Lord of the Rings; certainly, if I were going to create a Gandalf-like NPC for my campaign, I would make him very high level, and I'd do the same with Elrond and Sauron or their archetypes. I think that making them high level preserves more of the flavor of their characters from Middle Earth.
Helluva post Celestialbarbarian. Well said.
I agree wholeheartedly with the fact that LoTR characters are pretty low in level as far as the DnD system goes. Even Borimere's famous last stand is pretty easily accomplishable by a 6th level character. Orc's are 1/2 CR creatures. Even if you put a hundred of them against a level 5 or 6 Fighter he'll last for quite some time. Remember that those guys were archer builds and you can only be surrounded by 8 men at a time. I don't think lasting for couple minutes against 1/2 CR archers in hand to hand is anything that requires an 18th level Gestalt Fighter/Barbarian, or anything like that. I honestly would challenge anyone to come up with ANYTHING that occurred in the novels that couldn't be achieved by a group of 5 to 6th level characters. Gandalf’s light magic, Aragorn's healing voodoo, Borimere's last stand, even Sam's critical hit against an awakened Dire Spider. It's all low level stuff and just because it was AWESOME doesn't mean it's high level.
P.S. Elrond and Sauron were NOT level 30 (and Divine Rank 10!?!?!?). That is literally ridiculous. If Sauron or Elrond were that high level the novels would have been about 3 pages long. People would have been teleporting to mount doom, Legend Lore-ing the exact location of the Ring, and Sauron would have been altering reality to just kill anyone who got within a hundred mile radius. Level 10 maximum. Maximum.
Exactly how familiar are you with the books? Because Elrond is thousands of years old by TA 3019 (when the War of the Ring occurred). Sauron is a demigod. And the Uruk-hai were not just Orcs, they were super-orcs bred with no purpose other than to kill. The Orcs could do other things, like craft magic elixirs and such, but Uruks were straight warriors, with no other talents. And the Uruk at Amon-Hen were Sauron's best (about level 8 barbarians). That means that Boromir had to be a pretty hard dude to stand against them with at best a mastercraft longsword and shield with no other armor (armor in a LOTR-style has to provide DR and a class bonus to Defence is almost mandatory). Also, Boromir lead all the forces of Gondor. He was the head-honcho general.
Just because Gandalf's magic wasn't flashy doesn't mean it wasn't powerful. He could dispel the Witch-King's spells, summon lightning storms, blast Goblins with fireballs and held great power with words. In addition, he killed a Balrog, who is like Balor minus the flashy SLAs and with other, more subtle ones. Aragorn was an eighty-eight year old man by TA 3019 who had spent the last sixty-eight years adventuring. The best tracker in the world, a mighty warrior, an accomplished loremaster, etc. Sounds like a pretty high-level character to me. Legolas never missed. Gimli killed forty-three Uruk-hai who were all about fifth-level barbarians at Helm's Deep. All-in-all, the Fellowship was filled with 15-20 level characters (save the hobbits).
I changed my mind on the magic system again. Having read the LOTR RPG books, the whole Weariness casting system is perfect (I'm not sure I can post it so I won't). One can cast as many spells as one could want, but they will get tired eventually. Also, the subtle spells reflect the magic a lot better than the D&D magic.
In case anyone is interested, since September a fellow named Shamus Young has been posting on his blog an excellent comic strip he describes as follows:
[INDENT]Lord of the Rings is more or less the foundation of modern D&D. The latter rose from the former, although the two are now so estranged that to reunite them would be an act of savage madness. Imagine a gaggle of modern hack-n-slash roleplayers who had somehow never been exposed to the original Tolkien mythos, and then imagine taking those players and trying to introduce them to Tolkien via a D&D campaign.[/INDENT]
Hilarity ensues. The comic strip is called DM of the Rings. The strip uses frames from the actual films, carefully selected for appropriate facial expressions. -A
Blast, someone beat me to it. Go read this strip. Now. Unless you're at work and likely to get into trouble if you laugh too much...
Exactly how familiar are you with the books? Because Elrond is thousands of years old by TA 3019 (when the War of the Ring occurred). Sauron is a demigod. And the Uruk-hai were not just Orcs, they were super-orcs bred with no purpose other than to kill. The Orcs could do other things, like craft magic elixirs and such, but Uruks were straight warriors, with no other talents. And the Uruk at Amon-Hen were Sauron's best (about level 8 barbarians). That means that Boromir had to be a pretty hard dude to stand against them with at best a mastercraft longsword and shield with no other armor (armor in a LOTR-style has to provide DR and a class bonus to Defence is almost mandatory). Also, Boromir lead all the forces of Gondor. He was the head-honcho general.
Just because Gandalf's magic wasn't flashy doesn't mean it wasn't powerful. He could dispel the Witch-King's spells, summon lightning storms, blast Goblins with fireballs and held great power with words. In addition, he killed a Balrog, who is like Balor minus the flashy SLAs and with other, more subtle ones. Aragorn was an eighty-eight year old man by TA 3019 who had spent the last sixty-eight years adventuring. The best tracker in the world, a mighty warrior, an accomplished loremaster, etc. Sounds like a pretty high-level character to me. Legolas never missed. Gimli killed forty-three Uruk-hai who were all about fifth-level barbarians at Helm's Deep. All-in-all, the Fellowship was filled with 15-20 level characters (save the hobbits).
I changed my mind on the magic system again. Having read the LOTR RPG books, the whole Weariness casting system is perfect (I'm not sure I can post it so I won't). One can cast as many spells as one could want, but they will get tired eventually. Also, the subtle spells reflect the magic a lot better than the D&D magic.
Tolkien wrote long before Gygax invented the concept of class levels, so there's no way to say for certain the "level" of the uruk-hai that killed Boromir or attacked Helm's Deep. The abilities of any of the characters in Lord of the Rings need not correspond with the way D&D handles abilities. In D&D someone who never misses would have to actually be a demigod (when a natural 1 doesn't fail) so Legolas' ability to never miss doesn't mean that he's a certain level in D&D terms. Likewise Saruman, a powerful wizard and a Maia, died from one knife thrust at the hands of Grima Wormtongue.
In D&D a single knife thrust couldn't kill a high-level wizard, unless perhaps sneak-attacked by a high-level rogue. There's nothing to suggest, however, the Grima had any such ability. If I were trying to recreate Tolkien’s characters using the D&D system I'd likely assign a fairly high level to characters that people in Middle Earth regard as powerful, like Gandalf or Saruman, but there's no definitive way to say that the characters have any specific level or range of levels because in fact as Tolkien wrote them they have no levels at all.
For instance, there's no way in Hell that Aragorn is a ranger in D&D terms. Aragorn never casts spells, doesn't have an animal companion, and is almost exclusively written as a single-swordsman, not a dual-wielder or expert archer.
Boromir fought off a great many Uruk-hai (whoever said most of them were archers was flat-out wrong, Tolkien never specifies that there were more or less archers among them, and indeed there were likely less, if one reads the text). Yes, he did. He killed plenty of baddies. But if you pushed him off the walls of Helm's Deep, he'd die. A high level D&D Fighter wouldn't. Boromir also succumbed to poison, not the arrows themselves. Most high-level Fighters have a Con score and Fortitude save that makes poisoning them EXTREMELY difficult, and killing them with poison even moreso.
Legolas never missed - but in D&D a 1 always misses. Legolas also carried a single white knife for melee combat. In D&D a character wielding a knife, even a high level character, will have a lot of trouble killing people.
Gandalf could not possibly have been any kind of D&D spellcaster, because his spell selection was clearly very limited, very specific, and fairly weak. He can 'shut doors' and make his staff glow, and hurl some lightning and such. Yet, he couldn't heal anyone, couldn't lay waste to entire armies with Fireball and Chain Lightning spells, etc. Gandalf was a divine being whose powers were 'checked' by his 'superiors.' There's no real D&D equivalent to that without making Gandalf a template just for his own use. Call Gandalf a 1st level Fighter and hand him a template that bumps his HP to about 1000, and grants him limited use of very particular spells and abilities.
That's about as close as you'll get to making him work in D&D.
As was mentioned above, Saruman was killed by having his throat slit by Grima. Grima was certainly not high level (he, in turn, was killed by an arrow or two from HOBBITS for crying out loud). So, even at his best a low-level wimp isn't going to kill a high-level Wizard with one attack roll.
Fingolfin (to stray out of Lord of the Rings for a moment and into further ME lore) fought a demi-God. He wounded him seven times before dying. Yet, Fingolfin could not kill 1000 weakling 1st level warrior Orcs with impunity.
The simple fact is that Tolkien's Middle-earth and D&D are both rooted in heroic fantasy and epics. King Arthur, Beowulf, Gilgamesh -- these are character names that should resonate with both D&D and ME fans. However, that common background is where the two begin to diverge wildly. Tolkien was writing about epic, but very mortal people, in terms of what those people could do.
D&D is about heroes that, after so many levels, are barely what we would call mortal - and are STRINGENTLY defined in what they can do by a limited selection of classes which force you to have a particular group of abilities. Aside from feats and ability score selections, all 10th level Rogues look pretty much the same. All 10th level Fighters have exactly the same number of feats, and barring Intelligence score, the exact same amount of skills. D&D characters are, for lack of a better term and no insult to the game intended, very cookie-cutter, with fairly little room for customization.
Decipher's LotR game certainly allows way more flexibility, and therefore creates characters truer to Tolkien than D&D ever could dream of doing. But even that game has its shortcomings in terms of the fact that Middle-earth was written as an epic mythology, not a game. You might as well try to figure out what level The Punisher is.
Sometimes D&D can get good approximations of characters. But it even often fails in trying to replicate D&D SETTING characters, like Drizzt or Tol, or Huma, or what-have-you. To expect that it will serve for converting characters conceived outside the very concept of D&D is just plain absurdity.
Eberron's artificer or magewright class could represent Elven craftsmen. Many Elven goods, like the cloaks of Lórien, are too magical for simple "masterwork" craftsmanship. That the Elves consider "magic" to be special knowledge and craftsmanship, not really distinguished from "mundane" skilled craftsmanship, doesn't change its implementation as "magic" in the D&D system.
99% of magic is really knowing just one more fact :D
As has been touched on more than once here; the problem with converting LotR characters to D&D for a lot of people is that they assume that 'character can do X, so character is Y level.' Those people completely ignore that said character cannot do N, which is something any character of level Y can do.'
Exactly. Just because Legolas can do amazing feats with his bow that would require someone in D&D to have epic feats doesn't mean that he has the hit points that such an epic character would have.
For instance, there's no way in Hell that Aragorn is a ranger in D&D terms. Aragorn never casts spells, doesn't have an animal companion, and is almost exclusively written as a single-swordsman, not a dual-wielder or expert archer.
Actually the original D&D ranger was based on Aragorn (and to a lesser degree on Faramir). The minor spellcasting represents the healing lore of Aragorn, which he uses to prolong Frodo's life after the Lord of the Nine stabs him with a Morgul blade, but which Aragorn says isn't as powerful as Elrond's healing lore. The original ranger, like Aargorn and Faramir, had to have a good alignment. The ranger as a two-weapon specialist didn't enter D&D until after R.A. Salvatore published books about his drow ranger who wielded two scimitars (2nd Ed I believe).
Boromir fought off a great many Uruk-hai (whoever said most of them were archers was flat-out wrong, Tolkien never specifies that there were more or less archers among them, and indeed there were likely less, if one reads the text). Yes, he did. He killed plenty of baddies. But if you pushed him off the walls of Helm's Deep, he'd die. A high level D&D Fighter wouldn't. Boromir also succumbed to poison, not the arrows themselves. Most high-level Fighters have a Con score and Fortitude save that makes poisoning them EXTREMELY difficult, and killing them with poison even more so.
I see nothing about poison. It says simply that "he was pierced with many black-feathered arrows." It says nothing about the ratio of archers to footmen among the orcs, not all of which were uruk-hai. It's also possible that he could fall off of Helm's Deep and not die; people have actually fallen thousands of feet and (barely) survived. They don't get up and engage in melee, however, and the D&D rules for falling damage certainly don't replicate real-world falling damage for the the vast majority of cases.
Legolas never missed - but in D&D a 1 always misses. Legolas also carried a single white knife for melee combat. In D&D a character wielding a knife, even a high level character, will have a lot of trouble killing people.
Gandalf could not possibly have been any kind of D&D spellcaster, because his spell selection was clearly very limited, very specific, and fairly weak. He can 'shut doors' and make his staff glow, and hurl some lightning and such. Yet, he couldn't heal anyone, couldn't lay waste to entire armies with Fireball and Chain Lightning spells, etc. Gandalf was a divine being whose powers were 'checked' by his 'superiors.' There's no real D&D equivalent to that without making Gandalf a template just for his own use. Call Gandalf a 1st level Fighter and hand him a template that bumps his HP to about 1000, and grants him limited use of very particular spells and abilities.
That's about as close as you'll get to making him work in D&D.
As was mentioned above, Saruman was killed by having his throat slit by Grima. Grima was certainly not high level (he, in turn, was killed by an arrow or two from HOBBITS for crying out loud). So, even at his best a low-level wimp isn't going to kill a high-level Wizard with one attack roll.
Fingolfin (to stray out of Lord of the Rings for a moment and into further ME lore) fought a demi-God. He wounded him seven times before dying. Yet, Fingolfin could not kill 1000 weakling 1st level warrior Orcs with impunity.
The simple fact is that Tolkien's Middle-earth and D&D are both rooted in heroic fantasy and epics. King Arthur, Beowulf, Gilgamesh -- these are character names that should resonate with both D&D and ME fans. However, that common background is where the two begin to diverge wildly. Tolkien was writing about epic, but very mortal people, in terms of what those people could do.
D&D is about heroes that, after so many levels, are barely what we would call mortal - and are STRINGENTLY defined in what they can do by a limited selection of classes which force you to have a particular group of abilities. Aside from feats and ability score selections, all 10th level Rogues look pretty much the same. All 10th level Fighters have exactly the same number of feats, and barring Intelligence score, the exact same amount of skills. D&D characters are, for lack of a better term and no insult to the game intended, very cookie-cutter, with fairly little room for customization.
Decipher's LotR game certainly allows way more flexibility, and therefore creates characters truer to Tolkien than D&D ever could dream of doing. But even that game has its shortcomings in terms of the fact that Middle-earth was written as an epic mythology, not a game. You might as well try to figure out what level The Punisher is.
Sometimes D&D can get good approximations of characters. But it even often fails in trying to replicate D&D SETTING characters, like Drizzt or Tol, or Huma, or what-have-you. To expect that it will serve for converting characters conceived outside the very concept of D&D is just plain absurdity.
Or Jack Bauer. I watch him go through a warehouse full of terrorists and take them all out and then of him as being an epic missile-weapon specialistic, but we know that one good shot in the right place will still kill him as though he were a 1st-level fighter.
Horn of gondor(boromirs horn)
When blown in this horn grants a +2 moral bonus to base attack and skill checks for 2 rounds.
Shouldn't Tom Bombadil have levels in bard? Or does he just have ranks in Perform (sing)?
Well his singing seems to produce magical effects, even if they tend to be subtle, like all magic in Middle Earth, so that seems somewhat bardish, expect that Bombadil as a Maia is supposed to be very powerful, whereas the bard seems like a rather weak class. So maybe singing is just how he manifests spell-like and supernatural abilities, even Salient Divine Abilities.
I would also like to add that the description of Gandalf's staff provided at the beginning of this article is a gross understatement of its power. I don't have the knowledge to really put his staff into D20 terms, but to describe it vaguely it is an important part of his power. For instance, when he battles the Balrog and comes back at the end he not only becomes Gandalf the white, but his staff is changed. Also, when he leaves Sauron powerless to do so he shatters his staff. Unfortunately it's been so long since I read the books I can't remember if Gandalf ever actually confronts the Witch King during the battle at Gondor. In the movie I know his staff breaks. In the book? At any rate this can be argued as Sauron (or at least the emissary of Sauron) stripping Gandalf of his powers for the duration of time until Sauron is destroyed, at which point Gandalf suddenly has a staff again. My interpretation would be that any wizard in LOTR terms of sufficent power can break the staff of a less powerful wizard. Thus officially stripping him of or dramatically weakening his powers.
At the very least Gandalf's staff is not some silly little artifact with a few charges it is a LOTR's Wizard's Staff and an essential object to any LOTR's wizard. Thanks!
I agree that Gandalf isn't a wizard in the DnD sense.
I would also like to add that the description of Gandalf's staff provided at the beginning of this article is a gross understatement of its power. I don't have the knowledge to really put his staff into D20 terms, but to describe it vaguely it is an important part of his power. For instance, when he battles the Balrog and comes back at the end he not only becomes Gandalf the white, but his staff is changed. Also, when he leaves Sauron powerless to do so he shatters his staff. Unfortunately it's been so long since I read the books I can't remember if Gandalf ever actually confronts the Witch King during the battle at Gondor. In the movie I know his staff breaks. In the book? At any rate this can be argued as Sauron (or at least the emissary of Sauron) stripping Gandalf of his powers for the duration of time until Sauron is destroyed, at which point Gandalf suddenly has a staff again. My interpretation would be that any wizard in LOTR terms of sufficient power can break the staff of a less powerful wizard. Thus officially stripping him of or dramatically weakening his powers.
At the very least Gandalf's staff is not some silly little artifact with a few charges it is a LOTR's Wizard's Staff and an essential object to any LOTR's wizard. Thanks!
Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff, not Sauron's staff, as I suspect you meant to say.
In the novel Gandalf confronts the Witch King after Gong has broken open the gates to Minas Tirith, and prevents the Witch King from entering the city. They have a contest of wills, and then the riders of Rohan arrive and the Witch King leaves the gate to rally his troops against Rohan. The Witch King doesn't survive the encounter with the riders of Rohan, so we never get to see whether he might have eventually prevailed over Gandalf, although I've always gotten the impression that one minute or one hundred minutes, the Witch King never would have beaten Gandalf.
Sauron IS the Witch King, just located in Mirkwood. He's driven out by Gandalf and the Council and flees to Mordor.
-Z
u r wrong about that- the witch king is the leader of the nazgul