Orcs, Goblins, and Bugbears oh my!

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

zombiegleemax

Oct 14, 2003 20:32:13
Orcs and Goblinoids, ruthless, savage beasts who pillage and slaughter, they have no refinement, no other thought than to kill and maim. Or do they? Orcs and Goblinoids are traditionally seen as sadistic, evil killers--a group of savages who pillage and maim unsuspecting townsfolk, until a band of heroes can purge their clan from existence. But, let’s turn the tables for a second; let’s look at things from the perspective of these "savages."

You are born into a world where you are seen as a mindless killing machine, your kind can not come close to the societies of the more civilized races for fear of eradication. You live a life where any moment your entire clan could be wiped off the face of the planet. You live in a society where only those who can fight will survive. You are forced to live in caves, as any structures you build will be quickly torn down. Where you can not farm, or sometimes even hunt, and pillage out of frustration and starvation.

Yes, it has been said that Orcs revel in combat, but Dwarves are very similar in that regard. So, given the circumstances, it is no wonder that Orcs and Goblinoids act the way they do; it is either fight or die. They can not waste resources with technological advancements as they stand on the brink of extinction.

In my opinion, there should be a new god added to the standard D&D pantheon: Gresh, god of the storm. He was once a cleric of Grumsh, when he saw the error in the path Grumsh is leading the Orcs down, he now fights to remove the tyranny against Orcs and Goblinoids alike from the "superior" races and their current deities. His titles are the Tempest, the Storm, and the Purger, he is associated with the domains War, Strength, and Air. He is chaotic neutral and his favored weapon is the heavy pick.

I have made this post because I think Orcs and Goblinoids are the coolest races in D&D, and they definitely don't get the respect they deserve. I hope this post will give the Orcs and Goblinoids some respect, and some day I hope to see Orcs, Goblins, Hobgoblins, and possibly the lowly Kabold or unused Bugbear as standard races.
#2

zombiegleemax

Oct 17, 2003 16:55:12
This is an interesting post, since I had a similar thought. A large piece of my campaign so far has been revolving around a certain province with a healthy population of the "humanoid monsters."

"They have been raiding the townsfolk for months with little abandon, even capturing a few towns and burning them to use as strongholds!" Is the common race’s view of things.

"We have been opressed for far too long! My people, and others! We must strike back! We have already banded together, and as such, we are all well fed and receive a good treatment, as long as we care for each other this will continue. But it is not enough! The humans, elves and dwarves all kill us! And this is why I say that we must have vengeance! We shall take this land from them, or at least a fair portion of it and build our own Kingdom!"

Kinda different, no? So the PCs, who NEVER seem to remember to interrogate their slaves/prisoners still do not know this. And it'd help them too, since the other team has a Half-Troll/Half-Goblin Monk as an overall leader, a Gnoll Cleric as a religious leader, and a Goblin Fighter as a military leader, all of whom are fighting for good, the good of their people. They aren't evil, just misunderstood.
...
Okay, so maybe they are a little evil, but hey, who isn't?
#3

zombiegleemax

Oct 18, 2003 13:00:26
Excellent post.

Perhaps the situation would be remedied with a major Orc/Goblinoid hero in your campaign world. Someone who is a inspiration to PC's. It is interesting that good drow seem so acceptable (and verging on commonplace) in the Forgotten Realms, while good Orcs/Goblinoids are non-existent.
#4

tegemea

Oct 20, 2003 16:38:46
Yes, Most excellent post here.

I agree with the sentiment, however, I don't think that any of these humanoids should become standard player races. That would take away the flair of playing one and seeing the world from that unique perspective. Basically, I think everyone should try playing an orc or a goblin or a kobold, but it should never be considered within the norm or else you wouldn't get the same thing out of it. A great friend of mine is working on writing a long essay/short story that represents the memoirs of a peculiar kobold--one who came out smart. This kobold has interesting ideas about kobold society and how his race has shaped history .
#5

zombiegleemax

Oct 29, 2003 18:05:47
'one that came out smart' that's funny.
Hobgoblins, Goblins, and Kobalds are every bit as intelligent as humans. All have a 10 INT
Orcs are only a little slower sitting at 9 INT

The fact that all humanoids are viewed as mindless savages is something that I think is created by the very people who are 'victimised' by them, the humans and demi-humans.

The situation seems a lot like the European dominance and slaughter of the Native Americans. I think that finally looking at things from their perspective makes the game a whole lot more interesting.
#6

zombiegleemax

Nov 18, 2003 4:39:43
I don't understand why you say that Hobgoblins, Orcs, and Goblins are down trodden? They are "superior" races in regards to humans and most of the other demi-humans. This is why they can't co-exist with each other. An Orc is far stronger than a human, dwarf, or even a Half-orc. Goblins are just as good at hiding as Halflings and Gnomes, but are better sneaks than both. Hobgoblins are ECL +1 because they are much better fighters than they could be mistaken for. Bugbears don't get used enough, even though they are a strong and cunning opponent. I see them used as grunts or guards, when clearly Bugbears could be leaders or even champions.

Orcs and goblinoids are not born into a world of distress and pain. Take Cro Magnon man for instance (the typical cave man). Living in a cave isn't so bad. The temperature is nice year round, it offers shelter from the elements. It is a "fortified" position with only one way in or out. They also tend to be in places where there is a water supply and ample game to subsist upon.

Humans and the Demi-humans, on the other hand, had to learn to think to survive. Human civilization started in harsh environments. We learn to build, and that is how we survive. Orcs and goblinoids can be lazy because they don't have to worry about "will the rest of my family have food tomorrow?" or "will there be enough water for the crops this summer?" because they live in, what could be considered, a paradise by some. A house is just a wooden cave if you think about it.

Orcs and Goblinoids are on the verge of becoming civilized beings as well. In the Forgotten Realms there is an entire Orc empire north of Waterdeep. It runs on a feudal society, if I remember correctly. In the Kingdoms of Kalamar setting Hobgoblins rule large empires and fight toe-to-toe with the best human warriors around. The only thing keeping them from becoming civilized is their cultural mentalities and their traditions.

In my campaign setting there is a group of Orcs called the Dragon Fang Clan. After a fierce battle against a superior number of humans, the male population of the clan was decimated. This put females in positions of power. This concept radically changed my outlook on Orcs as savages. Instead, it made me view them in an almost Greek-like society. Today, if we see a guy on television wearing a traditional kilt; HE'S GOTTA BE FROM A LESS DEVELOPED COUNTRY, even if that country happens to be from the former Russian block with Nuclear power generators and atomic weapons.

Frankly, I say the mentality of the “downtrodden” savage is misrepresented. Not every Orc is a barbarian. They have clerics, sorcerers (though rare), rogues, rangers, fighters, etc... Also, a Hobgoblin's favored Class is Fighter. This means the Hobgoblins must have the resources necessary to train to a higher level than the NPC warrior class. I'm sure more than one human has come to a Hobgoblin to ask for military training.

What it all comes down to is the DM's personal opinion, though. I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate here. You decide for yourself.
#7

zombiegleemax

Nov 24, 2003 11:54:19
In my campaign, I have an Orcish society which is generally a cross between Classical Greece and Feudal Japan. One of my players runs a mercenary from this country, which is called Raln. I modified the Orc racial modifiers as well, keeping the +4 STR, paired with -2 CON and CHA, and I dropped their infravision to 30 feet. They're frail, like elves, and somewhat reserved, but they are well known for their fighters, and Raln has produced some powerful wizards as well. In contrast, I have an Elven society just north of these guys which is more or less a fascist police state. My players are currently headed up there to kick butt and take names.
#8

winter_ayars

Nov 25, 2003 4:28:01
While adding flavor (and indeed: realism) to your orcs and other goblinoids can be a great thing for your campaign, it can also add problems that don't arise when orcs are a bunch of savage murderers.

In my upcoming campaign world, I feature a great number of orc "clans" that have been pushed into the fringes by the more "civilized" humans. They won't adopt human civilization as they don't view it as having worthwhile advantages. While being honorable and lawful, they violently and often savagely repel invaders and others who don't respect them or their customs. They're not lawful evil as a society, but as a means of survival.

Adding depth to orcs or other traditionally "cutout" enemies requires those who want to play in the campaign respect that depth. While it doesn't mean all the players have to be Greek tragic actors who're always serious and angsty, it means a divergence from the typical "It's an orc! Kill it! Kill it!" mindset.

My campaign also features elves that have an actual reason why the elvish race is on the decline--sterility due to "birth defects" (read: about ten percent of all the elves are born hermaphrodites). This is occurring because of their abuse of very powerful magics and breeding with fiends and certain other things. They're neutral good, but they're very utilitarian, even to the point where they'll sacrifice their own race for the greater good.

In case you haven't guessed, part of this world was inspired by the idea of fleshing out cliches
#9

zombiegleemax

Nov 26, 2003 19:25:36
The idea for Gresh is an interesting one. Instead of just having him appear, though, it might be more interesting to show how he was an orc, or half-orc, who began as a mortal, reached into the epic world and, as the capstone to his mortal achievements, stole the portfolios of war, strength and air from another deity (or deities.)

Perhaps Corellon Larethian helped Gresh in his rise to godhood, hoping his ascension would make the orcish people easier to civilize, control or kill. Help might include: 1) spreading word of the ascension of Gresh (to help draw worshippers away from Gruumsh.) or 2) offering Gresh aid and advice on the best ways to acquire/steal the portfolios he wants from evil deities (Who, coincidentally, happen to be enemies of the elvish people.)

One other thought.With their higher birth rates and faster maturation times, an orcish society founded on law would put even humans to shame with the rate they would need to expand to maintain the land, food, and resources necessary to sustain their rapidly growing population.

Higher birthrates + Faster maturation times = Greater temptation to resolve disputes with your neighbors by going to war.
#10

oakspar77777

Dec 11, 2003 15:26:32
You seem to have minimized Orcs and Goblinoids in your campaign. Or mayhap you have villianized them too highly.

(1) Orcs and Goblinoids are not evil. They are predisposed to evil. (Unlike a Fiend, who IS evil). In the same way as Dwarfs are predisposed to being LG, an Orc is predisposed to being CE. Just like you get variation on Dwarves being LG, you get just as many variations from Orcs.

(2) Evil does not mean EVIL. True, there are racial animosities, but there is nothing keeping you from having goblins and orcs mixed into your societies (Half-Orcs have to come from somewhere). Orc/Goblin slums would not be out of place on the rough side of some (especially port) towns.

(3) Orcs and Goblinoids can have nations and governments as solid as any other chaotic society (like elves) or evil (like drow). They can establish trade, fight boarder wars, and conduct daily lives as well as any other race. You choice to leave them in the Stone Age is a campaign choice, not a limitation on the race.

I am a firm advocate that PCs should talk and negotiate, as good alignment dictates, rather than be glorified racists who slaughter entire civilizations based purely alignment predisposition.

As for PC races, the Half-Orc is already Orc enough for most. After all, the only difference is a +2 ST and -2 WS (a decent trade) and the addittion of Light Sensitivity (a serious drawback). Still, if someone wants it for flavor, then that is an acceptable option (most humans can't tell the difference between an Orc and Half-Orc anyways).

Goblins make great PCs. They are small, sneaky, and still have speed 30' at size small. They make great rogues. A Goblin Worg Rider can seriously outpace the Halfling Outrider. Think of him being the little guy sick of being picked on.
#11

mercurius

Dec 12, 2003 9:46:51
In my campaign currently, the orcs were, more or less, one of the only naval powers at one time. The continent that the majority of them had been living on became a barren place, forcing them to find other lands. They took to the seas and found themselves in all manner of other areas. In the main continent, they found a nice tropical island chain where they set up shop and stage raids on the mainland for slaves and sport. In another continent, ruled by dragons, the orcs arrived in an arid desert region and quickly came under the rule of a brass dragon. On that continent, the orcs are usually good aligned and are a PC race. The elves living in the massive green dragon forest, on the other hand, are unavailable for play
#12

zombiegleemax

Dec 19, 2003 15:13:37
I like what everyone is saying, but my point was in most campaigns and major campaign settings the Orcs and goblinoids don't get the respect they deserve. While I realize I can, and usually do, make orcs and goblinoids a more prevalent part of my campaign I was more or less trying to make the standard higher. To make things where Orcs and Goblinoids do have societies (in the DMG, it states that Chaotic Evil creatures like Orcs rarely have nations, and goblinoids and Orcs in general only rule by fear) and where they are not just mindless fodder for low-level characters. As it is their state has already been improving, in 2.0 Half-Orc characters had to be able to pass as human. In the real world, it is the creature with the least natural advantages that becomes the dominant species. This is because only the cunning ones survive, and so the species rapidly becomes intelligent. In D&D this is already evident with humans who, despite having no natural advantages whatsoever, are now rulers of the land. Orcs, Goblinoids, and other humanoid creatures are not much better then Humans, and should, theoretically, be not to far behind the playable races. Especially after two or three generations of slaughtering, the orcs and goblins would most likely get the technology of the main races and raise themselves to their level. Basically what I'm saying is that the idea of Orcs and Goblinoids being nearly mindless primitive beasts, as they are presented in most campaign settings, does not make much sense.
#13

zombiegleemax

Jan 04, 2004 15:30:49
In my world orcs are undecided at the moment
But orcs are different in every world.

The orcs of Tolkein were purely wicked,
the orcs of Geyhawk are more tolerable but its all what you make the orc to actually be.
Orcs are considered a evil race and a offshoot that is good could be considered but complicating things can be bad and confusing.
Consider this, Races made to be evil should stay evil
That’s why there are so many races.
Sometimes I almost want to eliminate dark elves from the entire world.
It's everyone’s own choice and it has to keep the players happy or else they will quit.

Orcs shouldn't be slain for no reason...
Just existing isn't something a lawful good human would punish.
#14

zombiegleemax

Jan 04, 2004 18:59:12
With the rules for customizing monsters in D&D there should never be a time when monsters or NPC's start looking like cardboard cut out bad guys.

Hobgoblins aren't all evil; they live an awful life, hated by a lot of people, great. As good characters they can be very interesting and unique NPC's or perhaps even PC's if you so choose living a tough life where they try to prove to the entire world that they aren't evil. When the hobgoblins are the bad guys instead of swamping the players with an armload of the beasts at 3 HD a pop you should create a genuine hobgoblin hero who can fight toe to toe with the toughest of the PC's and with his chosen elite warriors at his side is a formidable challenge for the entire party.

In either case the key is individuality. Make them out as full-fledged characters using the monster advancement and class rules to bring them out as unique individuals with their own class skills, personality, feats, and story.

Villains should be real people too, some get away and cause mischief later, others just enrich this weeks gaming session by being well thought out vocal foes who challenge the players not with overwhelming numbers of cardboard cut out foes but with a hero, and a handful of elite champions.

Supportive NPC's should also be unique and memorable. Make individual exotic characters that you yourself would enjoy role-playing in a game yourself. Give yourself a character with personality you know because you've taken the time to think out what they wear, what weapon they love, how they act. It shouldn't matter of they are human, hobgoblin, or troll. The more unique and memorable they are, the better.

If you're confident in how things go, even allowing a PC to try their hand at an unusual race could greatly enrich your gaming world. In my last campaign we had a kobold sorcerer as a PC and a Troll fighter/Druid as a prominent NPC. Both of these characters greatly shaped the campaign world and added a lot of depth to the game.

WoTC has given us tools in D&D to give virtually any race the ability to function as a regular character with classes and multiclasses. For the GM this is a powerful tool letting you create unique and powerful foes or strange and wondrous allies which can greatly enrich your gaming world.
#15

dunelord

Jan 14, 2004 22:48:31
The Kingdoms of Kaliamr setting has hobgoblins as a standard race.
#16

zombiegleemax

Jan 29, 2004 18:42:52
I think that the reason that orcs anyway are predisposed to suffer is that they are limited in the use of magic with their minuses to Int. and Cha. Strength is great if you are going to whack somebody with a sword but it doesn't compare to the wish spell. In my world orcs use psionics to maintain their racial viability