What do you think of that combo? Are there any other good combos you would suggest? Thanks.
Paladins usually want strength (bashing), charisma (divine grace, smite, etc), and wisdom (spellcasting). Rogues usually want intelligence (search and disable device, more skill points in general) and dexterity (hide, move silently, tumble, AC for light armor (needed if you want evasion even if you have extra proficiencies), etc. Everyone, of course, wants constitution.
If you have a lot of high scores, or a super-generous point buy, go for it. Otherwise, you'll have to think about where to focus. For instance, you might just use "ordinary paladin" ability distribution, forgetting about intelligence and dexterity, and being heavily armored and using your extra skill points to boost charisma and wisdom based skills, being a diplomat (maxed diplomacy and sense motive, five ranks in knowledge (nobility and royalty) and bluff) with good scouting skills like listen and spot, ditching disable device and search.
Other gestalt ideas? Well, I think rogue//wizard would work well -- it has all the right synergies, if you win initiative or snipe with orb or ray spells, sneak attack damage applied to spells (within 30 feet, at leasts) adds a bit of extra punch. Rogue//psion is another possibility, although I don't know if psionics is allowed in your games.
If lawful bards or non-lawful paladins are allowed, paladin//bard could work. If you want to combine the various Unearthed Arcana variant rules in a somewhat cheap way, you could go paladin//cloistered cleric. You get to say "Ha ha! I get extra benefits of being a cloistered cleric but pay none of the costs since my weaker hit die, poor base attack bonus progression, and lack of armor proficiencies is completely overridden by my paladin levels!"
Overall, though, rogue//paladin could work, so long as you keep the limitations in mind.
What sources do you have access to, what strengths do you want your character to have (front line mêlée? Stealth? Trapfinding?), what race are you planning your character being, and how are your ability scores generated?
The main problem I see is the complete lack of synergy of ability scores -- at least as conventionally conceived...
What sources do you have access to, what strengths do you want your character to have (front line mêlée? Stealth? Trapfinding?), what race are you planning your character being, and how are your ability scores generated?
I understand what you are saying in terms having my ability scores spread rather thin. The DM and I both like the idea of point bought ability scores from rolled dice which would give me a maximum amount of control in assigning values to said attributes.
My vision for this character is an Elf. Someone that could hold his own in front line combat, but would be most valuable as the charismatic leader that rallies troops and makes battle plans. I am interested in a very skillful character with lots of flexibility. My vision is placing Intelligence and Dexterity as the most important abilities, Charisma and Wisdom as being the second tier, and Constitution and Strength as being the least important abilities of my character. As such, he would most likely utilize Weapon Finesse and any applicable weapons. I only allow myself to power game if I feel that it fits within the character I am role playing.
The texts that we have access to are The Core Books, PHB2, DMG2, Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, Complete Arcane, and Unearthed Arcana. Not a very impressive list, but I do have money to spend if need be.
Phew, was that everything you wanted to know?:D
For one thing, duskblade is more of an "elven" class than paladin. It would reduce the multiple ability dependency. Since strength and constitution are given minimal priority, you could mostly be an archer/ranged blaster type character, who fights with a rapier (with weapon finesse) and arcane channelling when caught in mêlée. The good will save would also give you three good saves. Swift invisibility is also good for allowing sneak attacks if you can't flank or catch them flat-footed.
In general feel, it wouldn't be too dissimilar from a paladin, as a leader/general/knight in shining armor type, although it would use more flashy magical effects, and wouldn't be able to detect alignment or get a special mount. Still... you could probably get lenses of detect evil at will eventually... maybe for 3,000 gp (spell level 1 x caster level 1 x 2000 (use activated/continuous) x 1.5 (10 minute/level duration)). A mount you could get with the leadership feat or wild cohort.
The main problem I see is the complete lack of synergy of ability scores -- at least as conventionally conceived.
Paladins usually want strength (bashing), charisma (divine grace, smite, etc), and wisdom (spellcasting). Rogues usually want intelligence (search and disable device, more skill points in general) and dexterity (hide, move silently, tumble, AC for light armor (needed if you want evasion even if you have extra proficiencies), etc. Everyone, of course, wants constitution.
If you have a lot of high scores, or a super-generous point buy, go for it. Otherwise, you'll have to think about where to focus. For instance, you might just use "ordinary paladin" ability distribution, forgetting about intelligence and dexterity, and being heavily armored and using your extra skill points to boost charisma and wisdom based skills, being a diplomat (maxed diplomacy and sense motive, five ranks in knowledge (nobility and royalty) and bluff) with good scouting skills like listen and spot, ditching disable device and search.
If you really don't care about evasion, you can wear the heavy armor and forget about Dex and tumbling. Rogues get 8 skill points per level which is nice. Intelligence doesn't have to be that high. Play a human for the extra points.
Use the rogue stuff to augment the paladin stuff. You can sneak attack in full plate armor wielding a greatsword. Since you want a high Charisma, Use Magic Device becomes your friend. You have the skill points for Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Bluff. Search, Spot, and Listen are useful. Use Magic Device and Disable Device and now you have your 8 skills if playing a non-human 10 Intelligence. You don't have to max everything so you can diversify your skill set. With a high charisma, you don't need to max the social skills.
I'm going to be starting a campaign with a new DM that has suggested gestalt characters. I really like the idea and after toying with several different combinations of classes I think that I like the idea a Paladin/Rogue.
What do you think of that combo? Are there any other good combos you would suggest? Thanks.
I'm a fan of ranger/rogu for all your stealth needs with a good bit of combat inserted. Paladin/clerics or paladin/favored souls aren't bad either.
Paladin/rogues don't have maximum synergy, but as others have pointed out you will have a LOT more skills than paladins usually do, and some of it will obviously help. i picture a paladin/rogue like a uber-cop - they know all there is to know, can find out all they have to find out, and can handle pretty much anyone they need to. BTW, consider carrying a sap when you want to sneak attack someone without killing them.
Is it the best combo? No, but I think it could be fun to play. My priority is Dex, Chr, Int in that order. Main reason is I will be wearing Light Armour with Shield. Want the Dex to AC, Chr for LayonHands since the Gray Guard gets some neat abilities for them and the Int for spells. Since 15 Int is the highest I need to cast my spells Anything over 15 is gravy.
Sure you don't get the sneak attacks and ****, but charisma synergy will make you better in general. Bards also posess the skills you so desire.
If I was forced to be a paladin (and trust me, that's the only way I'd be one..) I'd gestalt with a warlock. The charisma synergy plus warlocks just rule.
And I'd stack my eldritch blast with smite on a phsychal attack to deal >9000.
Why not go bard instead?
Alignment restrictions.
Same with the paladin/warlock.
Alignment restrictions.
Same with the paladin/warlock.
Noone cares about alignment restrictions lol! That's just fluff.
Noone cares about alignment restrictions lol! That's just fluff.
Actually they are the Rules As Written. How I hate them :headexplo, only the paladin restriction makes sense
and I wouldn't mind them being Rule 0'd away.However they are the default.
Charisma for obvious reasons. In addition to having awesome saves and smiting the crap out of evil, he's the patry diplomat.
Strength because he's a warrior first and foremost. Even in his street-punk rogue days, Evan wasn't a nimble, Aladdin-style pickpocket; he was a charmer and a strong-arm.
Wisdom 'cause both paladin and rogue Will saves are awful. Also, gotta have spells.
Constitution because he need hps.
Dexterity is low because it doesn't have to be high. A rogue typically has a high Dex, but it's not an absolute necessity. Yeah, Evan's limited to a chain shirt (plus shield!) if he wants to use evasion, but he makes up for it with flexibility, d10 hit dice, and lay on hands (saves my bacon more than once).
Intelligence is last simply because he's a warrior. Those rogue levels helped out a lot, and being human helps as well.
I used 32-point buy, and my lowest score is a 12 (my highest - Charisma - is a 16). Of course, I have a couple of stat-boosting items to help out. I have to say, fluff aside, paladin abilities and rogue abilities synergize quite well. Nothing like divine grace + evasion, or sneak attack + smite evil.
Why not go bard instead?
Sure you don't get the sneak attacks and ****, but charisma synergy will make you better in general. Bards also posess the skills you so desire.
If I was forced to be a paladin (and trust me, that's the only way I'd be one..) I'd gestalt with a warlock. The charisma synergy plus warlocks just rule.
And I'd stack my eldritch blast with smite on a phsychal attack to deal >9000.
Warlock, hardly. I mean they're nice, I guess - though I prefer DFAs - though imo their fluff impinges too much on sorcerers for my liking. Now, binders... those guys are just cool. A paladin-binder can be good, considerate, and still major-league creepy. Bonus points if you show Gerion's sign when fighting fiends or Zagan's when killing yuan-ti. Payback is sweet, indeed.
Other than that... Paladin-wilders are nice. Wilders are rather limited to be proper casters, and in a way are similar to warlocks. Still, it can make for a very potent charisma-based "gish" especially with the educated wilder option - imagine a pseudo-angelic form of doom for your paladin, or calling up a thematically fitting astral construct (i.e. a Couatl-based one).
Actually they are the Rules As Written. How I hate them :headexplo, only the paladin restriction makes sense
However they are the default.
And someone will always suggest the Paladin of freedom
You could be this goodguy serial killer. Like Dexter Morgan.
Apart from that, I can agree that paladin/rogues are rather unconventional.
Thank you all for the input, but in the end, the DM ruled that the ideology behind Paladins and Rogues was so opposed, that a character could not exist as both simultaneously.
Only if you view the rogue in the classical sense - if you just see the class as it stands, it's someone who uses cunning (sneak attack and a few other abilities) and a broad skill set to achieve their goals.
What do you think of that combo? Are there any other good combos you would suggest? Thanks.
Synergywise, an archivist//wizard can be interesting, since they're both spellcasters relying on int and a spellbook. Additionally, the archivist is not quite as fragile as the wizard, although he'll likely have to spend a few of his many spells on protection since he can't use armor like a normal archivist would.
And of course, there are few things meaner than a CaDzilla...
Evasion,Fast movement, wisdom to armor class, more weird powers than you can shake a stick at...
You'd get all the pally stuff.....
Just pick up the Serenity feat so all your Paladin powers run on wisdom instead of charisma....boost the wisdom..
Then all you would have to worry about would be Wisdom, Con, Dex and Str.
You would have amazing saves, evasion, really nice armor class without armor, and nice movement speed.
Monks get pretty decent skill-per-level
You can take the Intuitive Strike feat to get your ToHit bonus running on Wisdom with your unarmed strikes and Simple weapons...if you wanted to take that route...
Imagine the fun you could have if you took the Decisive Strike, Charging Smite, Holy Fist, Prayerful Meditation class feature variants in the CC and UA
I have a non-gestalt monk4/paladin9 and it is my favorite character of all time.
p.s. Would Ascectic Knight work in a gestalt campaign?
p.s.s.20th level smiting at level 10 would be really cool....
1) Swashbuckler/Beguiler
2) Knight/Favored Soul
3) Barbarian/Druid
I will have the lowest hit die at d10 while the other two have d12. All of us will have the optimal BAB. Plus, each of us will have some facility with spell casting. Is this a capable party?
Has anyone tried Rogue (with variant for losing sneak attack and gaining bonus feats) and fighter (with bonus feats).
You would have a d10 (nice), full BaB (very nice), 8 + skill points (sexy), and a ridiculous number of feats to work with.
1) Swashbuckler/Beguiler
2) Knight/Favored Soul
3) Barbarian/Druid
Sounds decent. All characters seem passable in combat, you've got the skillmonkey field covered, and healing is fairly stable. The only thing you miss on is a few wizard schools. BTW, are prestige classes or multi-classing allowed? Your character could definitely benefit from a few SA dice, and daring outlaw can be very good for your damage.
Seems pretty beefed. You guys should do fine.
Has anyone tried Rogue (with variant for losing sneak attack and gaining bonus feats) and fighter (with bonus feats).
You would have a d10 (nice), full BaB (very nice), 8 + skill points (sexy), and a ridiculous number of feats to work with.
If two classes gain an identical feature in gestalt, those features overlap (the class which gains them faster is effectively determinative), and don't stack. I think fighter bonus feats from fighter levels and fighter bonus feats from variant rogue levels probably fall under this category.
If two classes gain an identical feature in gestalt, those features overlap (the class which gains them faster is effectively determinative), and don't stack. I think fighter bonus feats from fighter levels and fighter bonus feats from variant rogue levels probably fall under this category.
Except that, you know, there's a difference between having two classes that both have Uncanny Dodge or Sneak Attack and two that have Bonus Feats, because you can go a lot of ways with Bonus Feats.
If two classes gain an identical feature in gestalt, those features overlap (the class which gains them faster is effectively determinative), and don't stack. I think fighter bonus feats from fighter levels and fighter bonus feats from variant rogue levels probably fall under this category.
I think they should stack.
If you gestalt as a Wizard//Archivist you still get dual spell progression.
I suppose that a rogue with bonus fighter feats and a fighter would be more like a Cleric//Archivist. But the point remains the same.
Lets say he was a Human lvl 20 Rogue(UA variant)//Fighter, and he got both sets of feats, he would have 30 feats by 20th lvl. If they dont stack then he would have 19.
Now a Cleric//Archivist would have dual full spell progression; a Fighter//Cleric would have full spell progression and fighter feats; and a Cleric//Druid would be ridiculous.
Is 19 feats equal to dual spell progression? Not really.
Is 30 feats equal to dual spell progression? Not really, but close.
Is anything equal in power to the abomination of a gestalt Cleric//Druid? No....no...thats just absurd.
Even if the benefits don't stack in RAW, to keep a fair balance they should stack.
Why gimp a character that isnt overpowered in the first place?
Is anything equal in power to the abomination of a gestalt Cleric//Druid? No....no...thats just absurd.
Too true
TWF Ranger/Rouge, need I say more?
The Lipstick class combines better with the Rouge class.
But instead of Paladin//Rogue, I think Factotum//Duskblade wouldn't be too bad, either.