Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mutantpoo Oct 20, 2007 2:10:38	Paladins detect only chaotic evil or ANY evil--- neutral evil,lawful evil etc... ?
#2 extempus Oct 21, 2007 2:45:06	Any evil, as far as I know...
#3 branmakmuffin Oct 21, 2007 2:56:45	I remember having an argument about this back in 1e days: Can a Paladin detect an Evil-aligned (N)PC who's just going about his business, say buying fish from the fish monger? If so, Paladins would be detecting evil all over the place, because I imagine a lot of greedy, unscrupulous merchants, etc., would be Evil. My position has always been that unless an Evil-aligned (N)PC is doing (or plotting) something evil, the character won't register. In fact, I think any character bent on doing something evil would register. Now evil extra-planar creatures, undead, that sort of thing, would always register because they are inherently evil.
#4 samualt_barronsword Oct 21, 2007 16:32:11	1st edition paladins detect evil in creatures of any alignment variation, unless of course the DM says otherwise. 2nd edition paladins "can detect the presence of evil intent...", which is how I gather branmakmuffin allows his paladins to detect evil.
#5 branmakmuffin Oct 21, 2007 18:15:04	1st edition paladins detect evil in creatures of any alignment variation, unless of course the DM says otherwise. 2nd edition paladins "can detect the presence of evil intent...", which is how I gather branmakmuffin allows his paladins to detect evil. So do you advocate for "a 1e Paladin can detect evil on a NE Assassin out to buy a loaf of bread?" I don't. This is not an attempt to start an argument, BTW.
#6 extempus Oct 22, 2007 0:55:43	As it says in the 1e PHB, p. 22: Detect evil at up to 60' distance, as often as desired, but only when the paladin is concentrating on determining the presence of evil and seeking to detect it in the right general direction. I interpret that to mean that the paladin can therefore detect an evil person going about their business but not necessarily in the act of doing something evil. The fact that such a person is evilly aligned and present when the paladin is detecting evil would, IMHO, be consistent with the wording.
#7 branmakmuffin Oct 22, 2007 1:07:42	As it says in the 1e PHB, p. 22: I interpret that to mean that the paladin can therefore detect an evil person going about their business but not necessarily in the act of doing something evil. The fact that such a person is evilly aligned and present when the paladin is detecting evil would, IMHO, be consistent with the wording. Does an Evil-aligned (N)PC count as "the presence of evil?" That's not made clear. Again, if this is so, a Paladin would detect evil on an Assassin out to buy a loaf of bread. In that case, what are the Paladin's obligations? That seems very messy to me. I realize I may be straying somewhat into "house rulishness" here.
#8 extempus Oct 22, 2007 1:36:12	If an evil person being present does not count as a "presence of evil," then I suppose we're back to "what does 'is' really mean?" I think it's pretty clear, and I'd rule that yes, a paladin can detect an assassin out buying a loaf of bread. What are the paladin's obligations? First of all, what's he doing detecting evil out in a marketplace instead of shopping? Secondly, evil people do have their place in society... just because they are evil does not mean they are not useful, contributing members of society, and if they are not doing anything evil, what business does the paladin have making a scene? What if that person has a habit of embezzling from his employer... surely the paladin has more important things to do than deal with petty criminals (but he might at the very least have someone else check it out and deal with it somehow). Personally, I think a paladin's ability to detect evil should be used for important things, ie, while on an adventure etc, and not necessarily while doing everyday things... what would their patron deity think about their frivolous use of an important granted ability?
#9 branmakmuffin Oct 22, 2007 14:19:13	If an evil person being present does not count as a "presence of evil," then I suppose we're back to "what does 'is' really mean?" I think it's pretty clear, and I'd rule that yes, a paladin can detect an assassin out buying a loaf of bread. What are the paladin's obligations? First of all, what's he doing detecting evil out in a marketplace instead of shopping? That's always been one of my opinions. Let's assume there were really such things as Paladins. They probably would't go around constantly trying to detect evil, unless they were "on duty" or fanatics. It takes effort. Of course, the DM has to enforce that, because mechanically, apparently, a Paladin can walk around all day detecting evil. Secondly, evil people do have their place in society... just because they are evil does not mean they are not useful, contributing members of society, and if they are not doing anything evil, what business does the paladin have making a scene? What if that person has a habit of embezzling from his employer... surely the paladin has more important things to do than deal with petty criminals (but he might at the very least have someone else check it out and deal with it somehow). I agree with that assertion as well.
#10 samualt_barronsword Oct 22, 2007 16:02:13	So do you advocate for "a 1e Paladin can detect evil on a NE Assassin out to buy a loaf of bread?" I don't. This is not an attempt to start an argument, BTW. I "advocate" for DM's to run thier games as they see fit, however, like Extempus, as I read them, the 1e rules as written would allow a 1e Paladin to detect evil on a NE NPC (or PC for that matter) out to buy a loaf of bread. In that case, what are the Paladin's obligations? That seems very messy to me. Paladins are Lawful Good. Without proof or any evidence to suspect or suggest that the Assassin has commited any crime, what obligations should the Paladin have, other than to note the presence of evil in the guy and subsequently make a point to avoid prolonged contact? In my campaigns one would be acting in neither a lawful or good way if one were to start hacking apart strangers in the street for no other reason than they had evil alignments. That would be Insane Stupid, not Lawful Good. I realize I may be straying somewhat into "house rulishness" here. House rules. For one thing I let people know that in my campaign world, casting detect alignment and know alignment spells on those who have not given you permission to do so is socially unacceptable behavior in virtually all civilized society, akin to reading someone else's mail without their permission. A paladin especially would not be running around casting detect spells on people at random just for the heck of it, any more than a paladin would run around opening other peoples mail boxes and reading the letters contained therein, just because he/she could.
#11 extempus Oct 22, 2007 17:56:10	That would be Insane Stupid, not Lawful Good. I love that term! I can think of a few players I've encountered over the years who fit that to a tee...
#12 mojo_rat Oct 22, 2007 20:26:22	I had always thought the Paladin had to concentrate to detect evil. So really the only way he might detect an Asassin out buying his fish is if he had some reason to concentrate on it. I agree though that using it then just Acosting him on the street as a villain with no proof wouldnt be lawful though. Anyhow in our group it detects the alignment not intent.
#13 extempus Oct 23, 2007 1:36:26	Quite right, as I mentioned in post #6 above... a paladin must concentrate to detect evil, and furthermore, must be facing in the right direction. As far as detecting alignment and not intent, that is always what I took it to mean. If a paladin detected only evil intent, he might wander around all day detecting nothing, since evil people are not necessarily intending to do evil all the time but are just trying to earn a quid...