Problems with undead spawn creation in D&D - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Problems with undead spawn creation in D&D

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Nov 26, 2004 22:55:30 The mechanic of undead spawn creation in the current incarnation of Dungeons and Dragons. has no drawback or limit to spawn creation and is, therefore, broken but this is a problem that can be solved.

Let's look at my two favorite undead creatures, the Spectre and the Wraith. Both are highly intelligent non-beings (Int 14+, Wis 14+, Cha 15+). Both are incorporeal undead, which means walls really are no obstacle. Both have drain abilities that would kill the average "person" in less than 5 rounds. And both create enslaved spawn 1-4 rounds after the victims die. And there is no limit to the number of spawn that can be created and controlled.

The intelligent Spectre or Wraith would just need to start with a small, unprotected town or village, with no Cleric greater than 4th level (or at least stayed away from the Cleric until most of the town was turned and then mobbed him/her). Allowing 2 minutes per spawn creation (including travel time), and only working the 4 hours in the middle of the night in order to guaranty the absence of sunlight, the undead would easily create 120 spawn a night. Now if each of these spawn were commanded to do the same thing the next night, what is to stop this geometric progression of undeath? All worlds with incorporeal undead should be undead wastelands, unless remaining cities were warded (similar to the animated movie Final Fantasy) or every living entity had the Libris Mortis feats that protect against negative energy attacks (a form of natural selection).

My solution is to make intelligent undead hate each other instinctively. Their tendency is to attack each other on sight, as rivals competing for the only source of pleasure most intelligent undead seem to have: destroying the living. This instinct would be greater from the spawn towards its master, because the spawn knows who was responsible for their eternal tortured existence.

Thus, the ability to create spawn must become a conscious choice by the creating undead, not an automatic after effect of the life-force draining. Also, the ability to enslave spawn must be capped. I favor a hit dice ceiling similar to the Animate Dead spell. And finally, the ability to command the enslaved spawn must not be absolute. After all, the spawn has every reason to desire the death of their creator. Spawn should receive a modified Will save that lets them follow the letter rather than the "spirit" of a command. This modifier would be based on the undead age of the creator (younger equals weaker), the undead age of the spawn, and, possibly, the "moral" dilemma caused by the command itself (for example, commanded actions that would cause certain final death).
#2
zombiegleemax
Dec 02, 2004 19:03:04 I agree that the problem you’ve mentioned exists. Wraiths and specters are the most difficult examples of a problem that effects spawn generating undead generally. High level characters could put a stop to the expansion if they found out about soon enough, the problem is that “soon enough” is really much faster than is plausible. Villages aren’t in radio contact with population centers, if a couple fall over a couple days no one is likely to notice until 500 specters descend on a city of 10,000 in the dead of night. By the time the city knows what’s happening there will be too many specters for even high level characters to handle and game over.

Giving spawn a chance to resist specific commands sounds good to me, vampiric underlings rising against their sires is a staple of fantasy literature and good fun for a game. One option rather than a HD cap would be to reduce the master’s control over the spawn depending on how many it creates, i.e. the more created the easier the saves to disobey. That way there would be a tactical consideration for the master, does he want lots of questionable minions, or a few with unshakable loyalty.

One drawback of using loyalty as a restriction on the total conversion of the ecosystem into specters is the possibility of willing participants in such a plan. Can the church of Bane (or other fanatical evil organization) round up 1,000 crazed cultists? If so, surely they could still convert a bunch of low level useless zealots into an unstoppable army of incorporeal 7 HD shock troops. I have a hard time seeing very many D&D cities withstanding a sneak attack from such a force, keeping in mind that 95% or so of the population are going to be specter fodder.

A loyalty problem doesn’t address the fundamental power available, it just makes it harder to control. I’d propose something along the lines of what White Wolf did with Vampires, i.e. each “generation” is weaker than the last. For instance a 7 HD undead creates 5 HD spawn, who create 3 HD spawn, who don’t create spawn. The figures could be adjusted to suit tastes, but given that it bottoms out after a few generations the potential for exponential growth goes down. This fix has its drawbacks (you’ll need to write up stats for each generation, and more seriously it still doesn’t stop the ‘Banite army of the dead’ trick) but it’s another variety of option.

-Stephen
#3
zombiegleemax
Dec 09, 2004 8:36:57 When I was playing in 3.0, my rogue/shadowdancer used his shadow companions to kill some beggars and slowly create an army. Since shadows are incorporeal, they would follow him everywhere by staying in the ground underneath his feet, thus avoiding all guards and not alerting anyone important. I quickly realized that this could get out of hand with virtually no restriction. So I decided (when I DMed my own game) a few things about shadows that can also be applied to any spawning undead:

1) Each undead creature is limited in the number of undead spawn that it can control at one time. For my shadowdancer, we limited it to 10 shadows total, including the three I would get as companions and up to 7 spawn of those companions. It might be valuable to convert this number of undead to a number of undead HD instead.

2) When undead spawn creates its own spawn, the new spawn serves the master, not the old spawn. This prevents the undead from getting around restriction #1. If an undead spawns more undead than it can control, the oldest spawn becomes free-willed.

3) When the master dies, all of its spawn becomes free-willed.

4) If spawn becomes free-willed for any reason, it can never become the slave of a master again.
#4
angryman
Dec 13, 2004 3:01:29 Hey redkite! I know why you mentioned this problem! ;) One thing I can mention is that wraiths and spectres are supposed to be vengeful undead, but they are not necessarily bent on world conquest. They are shells of former living creatures who hate the living, yes, but you have to ask yourself why would they descend upon a city and turn everyone into wraiths? It doesn't help them in any real way. They get more goons? They don't care- all they want to do is sit and sulk and scare the bejeezuz out of wandering people who get too close to their sanctuaries. I use them as guardians of old tombs, they are not raiders or anything. Look at Return of the King- there was an undead army, but they didn't act until Aragorn forced them to do something, and they certainly hated the living. You have to remember not every monster thinks like a person...
#5
zombiegleemax
Dec 15, 2004 2:37:49 I agree with your point, Angryman, but all it takes is one wraith or spectre to go bad (megalomaniac or make everyone suffer as I do syndrome) and you've got an end of the world situation (there is always the divine intervention too, but the poor mechanic is my main issue).
#6
angryman
Dec 15, 2004 21:19:27 Yeah, I see what you mean. I would personally put a HD cap on it, say 1HD per original's HD of control. And spawn cannot create other spawn, just like vampires.
#7
zombiegleemax
Dec 16, 2004 21:21:20 I think that the majority of your problem seems to lie in the fact that you attribute living characteristics and drives to the undead. You have to think about the trauma the transition to undeath would cause, as well as some basic principles governing their existence.
First off, as in the cases of spectres or wraiths, they are consumed by a hatred of the living, a jealous and bitter animosity that allows them to cling to the mortal realm after death. Any ambitions of conquest would effectively supplant this burning drive, their lust for killing should brook no distractions.

Secondly, you do have a point, there are a few of the undead that rise above their vices, but this most happens among the ranks of vampires and other likeminded undead, whose existence is peripheral to their undead state, and often among such undead, their is much scheming and betrayal involved. Sure a vampire's spawn is subject to it's master's domination, but you have to remember, the master cannot direct every single action of every single minion in their retinue. It is for this reason that most vampires take great pains to keep the number of their spawn within reason, or to cast them out to fend for themselves.

It all boils down to one common point: Evil turns in upon itself. The reason that any kind of unification or conquest in the name of evil is short-lived is because the very nature of evil contradicts it. If the villains of your world all got along together and worked perfectly, they wouldn't be the ambitious, power-mongering, corrupted individuals heroes were born to fight.
#8
kinem
Dec 25, 2004 12:37:00 Don't forget that all it takes is one evil human cleric or wizard able to command a wraith and bent on conquest. Create spawn should be banned, and replaced by animate dead.
#9
zombiegleemax
Dec 26, 2004 22:26:53 Ok, I don't have me books here, and I have never played an evil cleric; but, isn't there some mechanic in place to rule how many undead a cleric can control at any given time? If so, why not just apply that mechanic to this situation? Just say the monster can control spawns as a cleric (with level = the monsters hit dice) can control undead.

That limits it, and allows monsters with high stats (if indeed this mechanic relies on stats in some way) to do it better than others. Anyway, that's my idea.

-Tatsu
#10
loopy
Jan 05, 2005 11:08:59 One might also assume that undead suffer from MMORPG Syndrome. They are intelligent, but their short-term memories are a bit frazzled. They will pursue an opponent, but after a time, they might get distracted by something else around them or their own memories of the days when they were alive and just start pacing around aimlessly feeling sorry for themselves. This could be why undead rarely wander (except for Banshees, Nightstalkers and a few others) and even if they do, they usually stick to a region (the Banshee only terrorizes the fiefdom of Caer Dwimmertwig).

That's why, in D&D, when someone tells you that a forest is haunted, you DON'T go in that forest unless you have a +5 firetruck loaded with holy water.
#11
NEd
Jan 18, 2005 20:06:15 So spawn-creating undead could theoretically kill everything living. So what? They are monsters. As DM, they don't do anything you don't want them too. The only reason a wraith will descend upon an urban population is if you say it happens. An army of Tanarii could just as easily invade the Prime Material Plane. What happens to the people, or for that matter the wraiths, when they start launching Jovochs from catapults?
#12
ronyon
Apr 26, 2005 16:34:21 The points about motivation are well taken, but as guy who plays neutral NecroPreists, I agree that there should be a cap, or something. As it is, anyone who dies of energy drain comes back as an undead. This is bad even if the undead are not controlled. As a cleric who can control undead, look out; I have the means and motive to create an army of spawn, controlled by one or two linchpin spawn. Rather than talk myself out of it, I would as soon just not be able to do it. A max Hd limit based on the Hd of who or what ever is on top of the pyramid, would seem best to me.
#13
zombiegleemax
Apr 27, 2005 14:45:17 Aren't incorporeal undead typically bound to a particular locus, i.e., usually where their previous living form was destroyed? Or do I have my undead lore confused? If it is the case that they are bound, then they wouldn't be able to descend on a village--though they could conceivably produce an infinity of spawn in their restricted locus if an infinity of meat came thither.
#14
Zomg_Zombies
Oct 07, 2013 19:22:54
zombiegleemax wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Nov 26, 2004 22:55:30	The mechanic of undead spawn creation in the current incarnation of Dungeons and Dragons. has no drawback or limit to spawn creation and is, therefore, broken but this is a problem that can be solved. Let's look at my two favorite undead creatures, the Spectre and the Wraith. Both are highly intelligent non-beings (Int 14+, Wis 14+, Cha 15+). Both are incorporeal undead, which means walls really are no obstacle. Both have drain abilities that would kill the average "person" in less than 5 rounds. And both create enslaved spawn 1-4 rounds after the victims die. And there is no limit to the number of spawn that can be created and controlled. The intelligent Spectre or Wraith would just need to start with a small, unprotected town or village, with no Cleric greater than 4th level (or at least stayed away from the Cleric until most of the town was turned and then mobbed him/her). Allowing 2 minutes per spawn creation (including travel time), and only working the 4 hours in the middle of the night in order to guaranty the absence of sunlight, the undead would easily create 120 spawn a night. Now if each of these spawn were commanded to do the same thing the next night, what is to stop this geometric progression of undeath? All worlds with incorporeal undead should be undead wastelands, unless remaining cities were warded (similar to the animated movie Final Fantasy) or every living entity had the Libris Mortis feats that protect against negative energy attacks (a form of natural selection). My solution is to make intelligent undead hate each other instinctively. Their tendency is to attack each other on sight, as rivals competing for the only source of pleasure most intelligent undead seem to have: destroying the living. This instinct would be greater from the spawn towards its master, because the spawn knows who was responsible for their eternal tortured existence. Thus, the ability to create spawn must become a conscious choice by the creating undead, not an automatic after effect of the life-force draining. Also, the ability to enslave spawn must be capped. I favor a hit dice ceiling similar to the Animate Dead spell. And finally, the ability to command the enslaved spawn must not be absolute. After all, the spawn has every reason to desire the death of their creator. Spawn should receive a modified Will save that lets them follow the letter rather than the "spirit" of a command. This modifier would be based on the undead age of the creator (younger equals weaker), the undead age of the spawn, and, possibly, the "moral" dilemma caused by the command itself (for example, commanded actions that would cause certain final death).
#2 zombiegleemax Dec 02, 2004 19:03:04	I agree that the problem you’ve mentioned exists. Wraiths and specters are the most difficult examples of a problem that effects spawn generating undead generally. High level characters could put a stop to the expansion if they found out about soon enough, the problem is that “soon enough” is really much faster than is plausible. Villages aren’t in radio contact with population centers, if a couple fall over a couple days no one is likely to notice until 500 specters descend on a city of 10,000 in the dead of night. By the time the city knows what’s happening there will be too many specters for even high level characters to handle and game over. Giving spawn a chance to resist specific commands sounds good to me, vampiric underlings rising against their sires is a staple of fantasy literature and good fun for a game. One option rather than a HD cap would be to reduce the master’s control over the spawn depending on how many it creates, i.e. the more created the easier the saves to disobey. That way there would be a tactical consideration for the master, does he want lots of questionable minions, or a few with unshakable loyalty. One drawback of using loyalty as a restriction on the total conversion of the ecosystem into specters is the possibility of willing participants in such a plan. Can the church of Bane (or other fanatical evil organization) round up 1,000 crazed cultists? If so, surely they could still convert a bunch of low level useless zealots into an unstoppable army of incorporeal 7 HD shock troops. I have a hard time seeing very many D&D cities withstanding a sneak attack from such a force, keeping in mind that 95% or so of the population are going to be specter fodder. A loyalty problem doesn’t address the fundamental power available, it just makes it harder to control. I’d propose something along the lines of what White Wolf did with Vampires, i.e. each “generation” is weaker than the last. For instance a 7 HD undead creates 5 HD spawn, who create 3 HD spawn, who don’t create spawn. The figures could be adjusted to suit tastes, but given that it bottoms out after a few generations the potential for exponential growth goes down. This fix has its drawbacks (you’ll need to write up stats for each generation, and more seriously it still doesn’t stop the ‘Banite army of the dead’ trick) but it’s another variety of option. -Stephen
#3 zombiegleemax Dec 09, 2004 8:36:57	When I was playing in 3.0, my rogue/shadowdancer used his shadow companions to kill some beggars and slowly create an army. Since shadows are incorporeal, they would follow him everywhere by staying in the ground underneath his feet, thus avoiding all guards and not alerting anyone important. I quickly realized that this could get out of hand with virtually no restriction. So I decided (when I DMed my own game) a few things about shadows that can also be applied to any spawning undead: 1) Each undead creature is limited in the number of undead spawn that it can control at one time. For my shadowdancer, we limited it to 10 shadows total, including the three I would get as companions and up to 7 spawn of those companions. It might be valuable to convert this number of undead to a number of undead HD instead. 2) When undead spawn creates its own spawn, the new spawn serves the master, not the old spawn. This prevents the undead from getting around restriction #1. If an undead spawns more undead than it can control, the oldest spawn becomes free-willed. 3) When the master dies, all of its spawn becomes free-willed. 4) If spawn becomes free-willed for any reason, it can never become the slave of a master again.
#4 angryman Dec 13, 2004 3:01:29	Hey redkite! I know why you mentioned this problem! ;) One thing I can mention is that wraiths and spectres are supposed to be vengeful undead, but they are not necessarily bent on world conquest. They are shells of former living creatures who hate the living, yes, but you have to ask yourself why would they descend upon a city and turn everyone into wraiths? It doesn't help them in any real way. They get more goons? They don't care- all they want to do is sit and sulk and scare the bejeezuz out of wandering people who get too close to their sanctuaries. I use them as guardians of old tombs, they are not raiders or anything. Look at Return of the King- there was an undead army, but they didn't act until Aragorn forced them to do something, and they certainly hated the living. You have to remember not every monster thinks like a person...
#5 zombiegleemax Dec 15, 2004 2:37:49	I agree with your point, Angryman, but all it takes is one wraith or spectre to go bad (megalomaniac or make everyone suffer as I do syndrome) and you've got an end of the world situation (there is always the divine intervention too, but the poor mechanic is my main issue).
#6 angryman Dec 15, 2004 21:19:27	Yeah, I see what you mean. I would personally put a HD cap on it, say 1HD per original's HD of control. And spawn cannot create other spawn, just like vampires.
#7 zombiegleemax Dec 16, 2004 21:21:20	I think that the majority of your problem seems to lie in the fact that you attribute living characteristics and drives to the undead. You have to think about the trauma the transition to undeath would cause, as well as some basic principles governing their existence. First off, as in the cases of spectres or wraiths, they are consumed by a hatred of the living, a jealous and bitter animosity that allows them to cling to the mortal realm after death. Any ambitions of conquest would effectively supplant this burning drive, their lust for killing should brook no distractions. Secondly, you do have a point, there are a few of the undead that rise above their vices, but this most happens among the ranks of vampires and other likeminded undead, whose existence is peripheral to their undead state, and often among such undead, their is much scheming and betrayal involved. Sure a vampire's spawn is subject to it's master's domination, but you have to remember, the master cannot direct every single action of every single minion in their retinue. It is for this reason that most vampires take great pains to keep the number of their spawn within reason, or to cast them out to fend for themselves. It all boils down to one common point: Evil turns in upon itself. The reason that any kind of unification or conquest in the name of evil is short-lived is because the very nature of evil contradicts it. If the villains of your world all got along together and worked perfectly, they wouldn't be the ambitious, power-mongering, corrupted individuals heroes were born to fight.
#8 kinem Dec 25, 2004 12:37:00	Don't forget that all it takes is one evil human cleric or wizard able to command a wraith and bent on conquest. Create spawn should be banned, and replaced by animate dead.
#9 zombiegleemax Dec 26, 2004 22:26:53	Ok, I don't have me books here, and I have never played an evil cleric; but, isn't there some mechanic in place to rule how many undead a cleric can control at any given time? If so, why not just apply that mechanic to this situation? Just say the monster can control spawns as a cleric (with level = the monsters hit dice) can control undead. That limits it, and allows monsters with high stats (if indeed this mechanic relies on stats in some way) to do it better than others. Anyway, that's my idea. -Tatsu
#10 loopy Jan 05, 2005 11:08:59	One might also assume that undead suffer from MMORPG Syndrome. They are intelligent, but their short-term memories are a bit frazzled. They will pursue an opponent, but after a time, they might get distracted by something else around them or their own memories of the days when they were alive and just start pacing around aimlessly feeling sorry for themselves. This could be why undead rarely wander (except for Banshees, Nightstalkers and a few others) and even if they do, they usually stick to a region (the Banshee only terrorizes the fiefdom of Caer Dwimmertwig). That's why, in D&D, when someone tells you that a forest is haunted, you DON'T go in that forest unless you have a +5 firetruck loaded with holy water.
#11 NEd Jan 18, 2005 20:06:15	So spawn-creating undead could theoretically kill everything living. So what? They are monsters. As DM, they don't do anything you don't want them too. The only reason a wraith will descend upon an urban population is if you say it happens. An army of Tanarii could just as easily invade the Prime Material Plane. What happens to the people, or for that matter the wraiths, when they start launching Jovochs from catapults?
#12 ronyon Apr 26, 2005 16:34:21	The points about motivation are well taken, but as guy who plays neutral NecroPreists, I agree that there should be a cap, or something. As it is, anyone who dies of energy drain comes back as an undead. This is bad even if the undead are not controlled. As a cleric who can control undead, look out; I have the means and motive to create an army of spawn, controlled by one or two linchpin spawn. Rather than talk myself out of it, I would as soon just not be able to do it. A max Hd limit based on the Hd of who or what ever is on top of the pyramid, would seem best to me.
#13 zombiegleemax Apr 27, 2005 14:45:17	Aren't incorporeal undead typically bound to a particular locus, i.e., usually where their previous living form was destroyed? Or do I have my undead lore confused? If it is the case that they are bound, then they wouldn't be able to descend on a village--though they could conceivably produce an infinity of spawn in their restricted locus if an infinity of meat came thither.
#14 Zomg_Zombies Oct 07, 2013 19:22:54	zombiegleemax wrote: