“The Warlock Principle” is the thing the designers of the Warlock used when creating the Warlock (I read it in an interview with the creators of CA, forgive the fact I don't have a link). The Warlock Principle says that after around 5th level, a spellcaster has more then enough spell slots to last him the day. At that point, it’s more about his "Impact per Round" (The amount of impact he has on a combat on a per round basis. From now on, this will simply be called "Impact"). Since a spellcaster will not see enough rounds of combat to drop all of his spells, how much each spell is worth is far more important. Using this reasoning, the Warlock was allowed to have unlimited uses of his powers because his "Impact" will be much less then an average spellcaster. If we accept this to be true, then the reasons for psionics being unbalanced become quite obvious.
The Psionic Manifesting system (namely, augmentation) allows psionics to have an average Impact unmatched by any other class. The defense that otherwise psionics will run out of Stamina is false. Simply follow this formula. More Impact=Shorter Combat. Shorter Combat=Less Resources Used. A psionic rationing PP will save himself resources, but will cost his party resources in turn by not ending the combat sooner. In fact, the psionic might use up as much PP over a longer time than he would have "going nova," thus wasting resources of his party for no reason. Following this logic further, if we examine the number of PP a psionic (for these purpose, Psion and Wilder) has, then we discover that at 5th level, a psionic has enough base PP to cast 5 fully augmented powers before drained completely. The average day is supposed to entail 3-5 encounters a day. I will take the middle road and simply assume 4. At this level, a 3rd level spell will often end, or severely shorten, combat. A psionic gives up his lower level "Spells" for 5 of these a day, while a Wizard/Cleric/Druid etc. only has 1 (Again, BASE) and a Sorcerer/Favored Soul etc. has none. This gives the psionic a decided advantage with his 1.25 powers per combat, but not just any powers, but the strongest he or any other caster at that point can wield. Assuming his party members pull their own weight, a Psion can comfortably drop a single fully augmented power and let his party clean up what’s left. The Wizard/Cleric on the other hand, will have only one of these "super shots" before having to resort to weaker, lower level spells.
This gap increases as psionics level up, to the point where at 20th level, a psionic has enough PP to cast 17 fully augmented 9th level powers, more then the wizards/druids 9th, 8th, 7th, and 6th level spells COMBINED and easily enough to survive 4 encounters in a day (4.25 powers a combat, remembering that these are all the strongest spells any one can cast). Meanwhile, the wizard continues to have only a token amount of 9th level spells, and again will soon have to resort to the much weaker, lower level spells. These lower spell slots have less of an impact on combat, thus drawing combat out, making him and his party expend even MORE resources, which leads to him using even lower spells, and it just keeps going.
Spontaneous Casters can step up to the plate a bit more as far as Impact goes, thanks to their additional spell slots, but they pay a steep cost, in particular the staggered growth of their next level of spells(Yes, wilders have staggered growth, but augmentation allows lower level spells mimic higher level ones in ways sorcerers can't, including DC). In addition, they are rather inflexible compared to psionics. While they do know more spells, Powers often mimic multiple Spells through augmentation, and have a much easier time getting around defenses such as Energy Resist (thank to the shifting nature of psionics elemental powers) and DC (since augmenting their powers raises the DC). Even after paying all this, psionics still have almost as many 9th level powers as sorcerers do 9th, 8th and 7th level spells combined.
The point that spells are automatically augmented as a balancing factor is not valid for two reason. First, spells have rigid "caps" to them, which most powers don't have, allowing powers an infinite growth, while spells growth is often exceptionally finite. Secondaly, psionics get more PP then they really should. To prove this, I point out the number of spells a wizard has compared to the PP a psionic has. A wizard spells, converted to PP is (4 x 17 + 4 x 15 + 4 x 13 etc.) for a total of 324 PP at 20th level. A sorcerer does indeed have quite a bit more then this, but this power, for both of them, is stretched out among numerous slots, while it is exceptionally condensed for psionics.
Psionics "burn out" not because of a lack of power, but because they have just as much power as a Wizard or Sorcerer, but are able to expel it at a MUCH more rapid rate. This, in my eyes, is a TREMENDOUS strength, and gives psionics an Impact per Round greater then any other single class. Add in that, as I pointed out above, a psionic should not have stamina issues in a well formed party, since the "novas" he gets are more then adequate for a day, and if not, then more then likely the Wizard or Cleric is in almost as much trouble as he is. Fortunately, the resources he spent SAVED overall resources for the party, thus allowing them to finish this combat without his aid. The Wizard on the other hand, is probably down to 4th level spells, since his lower level spells lack the Impact to end combat as quickly as his higher level spells, thus drawing out combat, thus making him and his party expend more and more resources, round after round, long after the psionic combat has ended.
This is one of many reasons psionics can be considered overpowered, but I consider it the main reason. Their "better then spontaneous casters" spontaneous manifesting, the incredibly flexibility of their powers, and the fact that being psionic grants a VAST array of options that non psionic characters get no part of, all contribute to make psionics a powerful, dare I say broken, addition to the game.
Another flaw, the ability for a psion to 'nova' isn't a strictly psionic problem. Any thing psionics can do, arcane can do better or faster (if not both) and divine can do it even better than that. What's the difference? Ease of use. The entire psionics system is easy to use, and is more intuitive than a spell slot system. This isn't a flaw of psionics, this is a flaw of traditional magic being too bulky and counter-intuitive.
I'll let Radical Taoist continue for us...
Free Scaling is what it means for a 9th-level wizard's spell -- for example, magic missile -- is much more powerful (in this case, five times as powerful) than a 1st-level wizard's spell, at no extra expenditure of arcane energy. To achieve the same effect as a 9th-level wizard casting a magic missile (a standard first-level spell), a 9th-level psion must either use 9 power points for a 9d6 energy ray or cast energy burst. Either way, the psion uses more power points. Refiguring the wizard's "power points" based on free scaling results in many, many more power points than the psion has.
Utility is what truly makes the mage useful. While it is nice to, at higher levels, throw fireball after ice storm after chain lightning, a low-level mage is underpowered -- so one might think. However, in a roleplaying scenario, a wizard is amazingly useful. Need to win the peasant farmer's trust? Liven up his meal with prestidigitation. Orcs need distracting? Time for dancing lights. Break the evil wizard's concentration? Ghost sound to the rescue. With the exception of a few telepathy powers, there is very little utility to psionics; the system is mostly a dungeoncrawling aid.
Thus psionics utterly fails to be overpowered; arcane is, in fact, a bit mightier.
Besides lowering psionic power points to a more reasonable level, though, what else can you do? You can make it so all spellcasters in your game use spell/power points to cast spells. In which case, a level 20 wizard can cast 13 9th level spells per day, with more castings available depending on your intelligence modifier. 2 more times, I believe, assuming a 20 intelligence. Is that acceptable?
If not, if you'd prefer that all casters, including manifesters, use the spellslot system, then it becomes a little bit harder. Some powers were intended to be augmented to be useful later on, and as such have no higher power level versions like some stronger, redundant versions of spells do. Having them unaugmentable could be disastrous. You could make it so that powers are automatically augmented to the max of what they're supposed to be, but that would mean you can spend a level 1 slot to do 20d6 damage with energy ray, when you're supposed to use the equivalent of a 9th level spell to do so much normally. Or, you could go and look at each spell individually and revise them all to determine what would be 'fair' and what would not be. Over all, I think it would be too much of a hassle, probably.
So in short: Change the power points they have and hope for the best.
The point that spells are automatically augmented as a balancing factor is not valid for two reason. First, spells have rigid "caps" to them, which most powers don't have, allowing powers an infinite growth, while spells growth is often exceptionally finite.
First of all, Psionics definitely have a cap and can by no means allow infinite growth. The most important rule in the XPH is that the maximum amount of PP you can spend on any given power is your manifester level, unless you have the Overchannel feat or can Wild Durge, both of which can be harmful to the manifester.
Second of all, I disagree that magic's automatic augmentation is exceptionally finite. Many lower level spells can easily still be very useful at higher levels, while psionics practically depend on augmentation.
Secondaly, psionics get more PP then they really should. To prove this, I point out the number of spells a wizard has compared to the PP a psionic has. A wizard spells, converted to PP is (4 x 17 + 4 x 15 + 4 x 13 etc.) for a total of 324 PP at 20th level. A sorcerer does indeed have quite a bit more then this, but this power, for both of them, is stretched out among numerous slots, while it is exceptionally condensed for psionics.
The reason Psionics get more PP than you suppose they should is because they have to augment their powers to achieve any sort of scaling effect, which normal casters get for free, again meaning that lower level spells are still useful to them.
I had trouble understanding much of the rest of what you said. I don't know why, but I would read it, and it would still come back as a blank.
One thing that might be the problem is that "paper and practice" thing. This first came to light to me on a board discussion about the sorcerer being underpowered. You see, a lot of things look over or underpowered on paper but aren't so at all in practice. The sorcerer and psionics are a prime example of this. Sorcerers seem very weak on paper, but in practice, they can be just as effective as a wizard. Psionics might sometimes appear superior on paper, but in practice, they're not really any better then other casters. Just play a game with a psionic character in it, or play one yourself, and you will see they're not that big a deal in practice.
Just my 2 cp.
While your points are valid they are not accurate. This has all been hashed out on the psionics boards. Please have a look at these Myth threads...
http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253&origin=
http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=416446&origin=
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=471148
Also, the Sor/Wiz spell list is more versatile, and low-level things are good too. For example, you're a psion who's used his power points on high-level spells, then they need to sneak past something. For example, “Psion: I... lessee... *pages through Psi. HB* There's Shadow Body, I know that one, but not enough pp... Aha! There's Knock and Chameleon! Oh wait, I don't know those. Dang.”
Now, compare a 6th level sorcerer with a 6th level psion, each with a key ability score of 20. The psion can manifest 4 fifth level powers per day, with nothing left over. That's the same as the number of 3rd level spells the sorcerer can cast, and the latter has 2nd and 1st level spells. And let's look at 20 vs. 20th level, key ability 30. The psion has ten 9th level powers, and the sorcerer has seven 9th level spells. Psion ahead? Wait a sec. Compare a Meteor Swarm to a maximized Cone of Cold. That's 32d6, average 112 damage, average 78 if he makes half his saves, compared to 90, 69 if he makes the save half the time. That's not too big a difference.
I'm out of time, but in short, I don't think psionics are overpowered. Unless you're using the EPH, in which case I just wasted a bunch of time and you should use normal psionics.
Also, powers do not scale infinitely. There is a cap of 20 pp per spell at level 20 (with about 22 fully augmented powers with 20 pp spent per power with an Int of 30 for a psion). A wizard with an Int of 30 has 53 spells, spread out over 9 levels (I'm not counting cantrips since cantrips do not scale). All of a wizard's spells have the potential to scale in damage/effects automatically with level (that wizard can have 6 fireballs that all do 20d6 damage). A psion has to augment powers manually to get that kind of damage. And the sorcerer, whoo baby, with a godly Charisma of 30 (I've been using 30 for simplicity, more reasonable tests could be done at 20, but where is the fun in that?), has 71 spells a day that scale with power at no cost.
As for scaling DCs, all the wizard has to do is prepare heightened versions of the spells that he thinks will do best. A sorcerer hurts to do the same, but they can suck it up and heighten spells if they wish. The main advantage that a psion has over other "casters" is that a psion can augment damage or DC or whatever on the fly as part of manifesting the power. They are the ultimate spontaneous casters.
I think that you make some valid points, but they only are constant in laboratory settings with a standard of 4 encounters per day and a DM who is predictable.
The Warlock Principle says that after around 5th level, a spellcaster has more then enough spell slots to last him the day
The difference being that under the augmentation system increased cost equates to increased effect, where with spell slots increased caster level equates to increased effect. To transfer the daily allotment of spell slots into a power point equivalent will show them to be approximately the same:
For reference, a 5th level wizard with an 18 intelligence score (starting at 15, +1 for level and +2 for a headband) has 4/4/3/2 for spell slots, which if you translate directly spell slot cost to power points is 25 power points, or if you take total spell levels and convert them at a rate of 2 power points to one spell level is 36 power points, a 5th level psion with an 18 intellgience has 35 power points. The psion has a slight edge over the wizard in this department, depending on how you do your accounting, and is a way behind the sorcerer at even levels, and close to them at odd because of the one level delayed spell level access.
So in those terms they are the same, however, when you look at the effect of those resources you'll see that the wizard has a decided advantage. Using damage as a comparative factor (and only because it is a numerical and thus quantifiable comparison) a wizard can use his 0th level slots for acid splash and 1d3, 1st level spell slots for shocking grasp and 5d6 damage, 2nd level slots for scorching ray and 4d6 damage, and 3rd level slots for fireball and 5d6 damage. Taking into a count all of his spell slots, his total effect in damage over a day is 4d3 for 0ths, 20d6 for 1sts, 12d6 for 2nds, and 10d6 for 3rds, grand total of 4d3+42d6, averaging 155 damage. A psion on the other hand, no matter what power he uses, can dish out at best up to 5d6 damage (plus or minus 1 per die depending on some elemental powers) costing him a power point per die. This means that over the course of the day he can deal 35d6 points of damage, averaging 122.5.
This is a microcosm of the entire comparison between arcane spells and psionic powers. While there are systematic advantages to the psionics system, they are not unbalancing because they have been paired with powers that are much weaker in general than their corresponding powers (or have much higher costs to produce equivalent effects).
The 5th level wizard has enough spell slots for him to cast a spell at varying effect for 9 combat rounds during a day, 13 if you include level zero spells (note that equivalents for level 0 spells in psionics are level 1 powers, such as my light, detect psionics, and so on). To produce the same longevity for a psion at that level he must keep himself to a little less than four power points a round, or a little less than 3 power points per round if you include the level 0 spells (which in most cases aren't terribly relevant to the wizard's power). In the case of a damage comparison the psion must go with an option equivalent to the wizard's worst damage output option in order to last as long.
Now let’s take that analysis down the road another 7 levels and see how they stack up at level 12.
Our wizard now with 22 intelligence (2 more stat points and a +4 headbant of int instead of +2) has the following spell slots:
4/6/6/5/4/4/3
Power Point Equivalent (Direct Translation): 158
Power Point Equivalent (Spell Level Translation): 178
Power Points of a 22 int, 12th level psion: 162
Our wizard has the following options for damaging spells:
1st level - Shocking Grasp - 5d6
2nd level - Scorching Ray - 12d6
3rd level - Fireball - 10d6
4th level - Empowered Scorching Ray - 18d6
5th level - Empowered Fireball - 15d6
6th level - Twin Scorching Ray - 24d6
Grand Total: 356d6 - average 1246 damage
Psion's best option is a 10 point power empowered for 15d6, he can do this 13 times a day and will have 6 points left for another 6d6, totaling 201d6, average 703.5 damage.
The wizard can cast a spell in 38 combat rounds a day. To maintain the same longevity a psion would spend about 4.25 power points per power. That is to say that a 12th level, for a psion to keep going as long as a wizard, he could not use any power higher than 2nd level.
Lets take this comparison to the top and see what it looks like at 20th
Our caster and manifester now both have 30 intelligence (started at 15, +5 from levels, +4 from a tome of int, and +6 from a headband).
The wizard has the following spells per day
4/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5
Direct conversion - 447 points
Spell level conversion - 502 points
Psion's Total - 443 points
Wizard's Options:
1st level - shocking grasps - 5d6
2nd level - scorching ray - 12d6
3rd level - fireball - 10d6
4th level - empowered scorching ray - 18d6
5th level - empowered fireball - 15d6
6th level - chain lightning - 15d6
7th level - delayed blast fireball - 20d6
8th level - polar ray - 20d6
9th level - meteor swarm - 32d6
Grand Total: 827d6 - average 2894.5
Psion's Option
Empowered Energy Power - 27d6, can be done 22 times per day with 3 points left for a 3d6 energy ray
Grand Total: 597d6 - average 2089.5 damage
The wizard can cast non-0th spells 53 times, to match a psion must spend no more than 8.35 points per power, meaning they don't even get 5th level effects if they want to keep up.
Note that neither case here is optimal, you can get a lot more out of either system if you work at it.
As you can clearly see, the psion doesn't have the longevity that the wizard has, he has the ability to produce massive effect, but only at proportionate costs. As such, while the psion can get more out of every power, he really shouldn't be subject to the warlock principal, because its founding assumption is not true for him.
Finally, there are two more points to consider on the subject:
1) To nova as the OP is suggestion and attain a more powerful effect than an arcane casting counterpart requires enabling powers, feats, and equipment, most of which drain power point reserves at an alarming rate. While they do reduce the time spent in combat, they raise the resource expenditure for the psion considerably, they do not reduce it as the OP suggests. For reference, I am the author of a Guide to psionic novas on the psionics board, which spells out a number of ways to get increased effect in a round, and how much those cost. Most of them require 160+ power points to perform at high levels, which is the same as 20th level psion discharging full strength powers for 8 rounds.
2) The nova phenomenon is not unique to psionics. A 17th level wizard could very easily rattle of 5 delayed blast fireballs in a single round with only core material. If you look around and decide this is what you want to do, a wizard or socerer is actually considerably better at it than a psion is. With this in mind, even when only considering the core rulebooks and the expanded psionics handbook the statement
The Psionic Manifesting system (namely, augmentation) allows psionics to have an average Impact unmatched by any other class.
is completely false. The average impact per power will be considerably less for a psion than a per spell impact of a wizard will be, and the average impact per round will be similar (or heavily in the arcane casters favor if you reach far enough outside of the core books for extra material). The augmentation system, while adding wonderful flexibility, actually detracts from the average impact of psionic powers because it makes you pay for all of the impact, rather than paying a spell slot and getting an impact based on your caster level.
The following is a run through of the number of points the OP has made that are incorrect because his analysis fails to consider either:
A) the strength of a given psionic power is related to its power point cost, no matter how much it is augments
b) More Impact can not be attained without astronomically increased costs and therefore having more impact actually costs more resources than it saves.
The defense that otherwise psionics will run out of Stamina is false. Simply follow this formula. More Impact=Shorter Combat. Shorter Combat=Less Resources Used. A psionic rationing PP will save himself resources, but will cost his party resources in turn by not ending the combat sooner. In fact, the psionic might use up as much PP over a longer time than he would have "going nova," thus wasting resources of his party for no reason.
More Impact = more resources spent on impact, considerably more. Resource conservation for a party occurs when each resource is used to its fullest potential. This means playing to the strengths of every character. If a 20th level psion and a 20th level wizard are in a party, it takes the psion 6 power points to quicken a power with 14 point strength (around a 7th level power), and then 20 points to manifest another. So for 40 points, he can get a 9th level power's worth and a 7th level powers worth. If this ends the combat then it costs 40 points to do so. If he manifests a full strength power and waits to allows his wizard friend to cast a 9th level spell, and that ends the combat, then he has spent 20 points and his wizard friend has spent the equivalent of 17. The party gets more strength in the same number of rounds for less cost by allowing each character to use their resources in an efficient manner. If it takes 4 spells/powers to win a combat, the psion can temporal acceleration for 3 rounds (15 points), manifest 3 delayed powers (6 extra points) and then manifest the 4th. Or he can quicken one, manifest another, and let his wizard friend do the same. The former costs 21 extra points, the latter the equivalent of 14.
The more party members you add, the more effective it becomes to let everyone do their thing efficiently and not try to steal the show. Everyone gets their actions in a round for free, trying to cram more into the same space in time costs resources, which reduces efficiency, and wastes resources. Making optimal uses of everyone's freely given actions to end a combat as quickly as possible within that framework is what saves party resources.
Following this logic further, if we examine the number of PP a psionic (for these purpose, Psion and Wilder) has, then we discover that at 5th level, a psionic has enough base PP to cast 5 fully augmented powers before drained completely. The average day is supposed to entail 3-5 encounters a day. I will take the middle road and simply assume 4. At this level, a 3rd level spell will often end, or severely shorten, combat. A psionic gives up his lower level "Spells" for 5 of these a day, while a Wizard/Cleric/Druid etc. only has 1 (Again, BASE) and a Sorcerer/Favored Soul etc. has none. This gives the psionic a decided advantage with his 1.25 powers per combat, but not just any powers, but the strongest he or any other caster at that point can wield. Assuming his party members pull their own weight, a Psion can comfortably drop a single fully augmented power and let his party clean up what’s left. The Wizard/Cleric on the other hand, will have only one of these "super shots" before having to resort to weaker, lower level spells.
While true, one has to ask, how much better is the "super shot" to a spell one level below it. The answer is not much. As psions pay for every point, they maximum effect against a casters is very similar, but their secondary effects against a caster are pathetic. A 5th level wizard deals 4d6 damage with a scorching ray, a 5 level psion deals 3d6 damage with 3 power points. A 7th level wizard deals 8d6 damage with a scorching ray, a 7th level psion deals 3d6 damage with 3 power points. To use the OP's own words:
This gap increases as psionics level up.
Moving on.
at 20th level, a psionic has enough PP to cast 17 fully augmented 9th level powers, more then the wizards/druids 9th, 8th, 7th, and 6th level spells COMBINED and easily enough to survive 4 encounters in a day (4.25 powers a combat, remembering that these are all the strongest spells any one can cast). Meanwhile, the wizard continues to have only a token amount of 9th level spells, and again will soon have to resort to the much weaker, lower level spells. These lower spell slots have less of an impact on combat, thus drawing combat out, making him and his party expend even MORE resources, which leads to him using even lower spells, and it just keeps going.
Consider the following:
1) High level casters get more power worth in bonus spell slots than psions do with bonus power points
2) A capped 5th level spell is 15 power points worth of effect (if we use damage dealing a numerical indicator, and I happen to think its a pretty good indicator of trends, even if it isn't worth much to a high level caster or manifester). Consider that a 5th level dominate person spell is the equivalent of an 11 power point psionic dominate (which by the way 5 out 6 psions have to take a feat to get)
3) A capped 4th level spell is sometimes 15 power points worth of effect (see complete arcane's orb spells).
Such is to say that a psion's super shot is frequently less attractive than a wizard's backup plan. Certainly not as attractive as options like finger of death, circle of death, holy word and company, cloudkill, black tentacles, or any number of exceptionally powerful spells can be.
Spontaneous Casters can step up to the plate a bit more as far as Impact goes, thanks to their additional spell slots, but they pay a steep cost, in particular the staggered growth of their next level of spells(Yes, wilders have staggered growth, but augmentation allows lower level spells mimic higher level ones in ways sorcerers can't, including DC). In addition, they are rather inflexible compared to psionics. While they do know more spells, Powers often mimic multiple Spells through augmentation, and have a much easier time getting around defenses such as Energy Resist (thank to the shifting nature of psionics elemental powers) and DC (since augmenting their powers raises the DC). Even after paying all this, psionics still have almost as many 9th level powers as sorcerers do 9th, 8th and 7th level spells combined.
Here I believe you have a confusion in terms. Spontaneous Casters can step up to the plate a bit more as far as longevity is concerned, but I had thought that was irrelevant beyond a certain point. Also, spontaneous casters can switch out lower level spells for new ones during their career, which psions are unable to do. If you want to compare average impact over the course of a day you have to decide how many rounds of combat there will be in the day. Then you have to find a point where the average impact of psionic powers and arcane spells are even. Then you understand that that is the point of balance. At less than that point, psions are more powerful. At more than that point they are less powerful. That would still ignore that a 20 point power matches up with a 6th level spell at caster level 20 more often than not, but it would be closer to correct.
The point that spells are automatically augmented as a balancing factor is not valid for two reason. First, spells have rigid "caps" to them, which most powers don't have, allowing powers an infinite growth, while spells growth is often exceptionally finite. Secondaly, psionics get more PP then they really should. To prove this, I point out the number of spells a wizard has compared to the PP a psionic has. A wizard spells, converted to PP is (4 x 17 + 4 x 15 + 4 x 13 etc.) for a total of 324 PP at 20th level. A sorcerer does indeed have quite a bit more then this, but this power, for both of them, is stretched out among numerous slots, while it is exceptionally condensed for psionics.
Lets look at those caps:
1st level spell - cost 1 pp worth - cap 5d6 - worth 5 pp: value = 5 times what a psion pays
2nd level spell - cost 3 pp worth - cap 5d6 - worth 5 pp: value = 2 points more than a psion gets*
3rd level spell - cost 5 pp worth - cap 10d6 - worth 10 pp: value = double what a psion gets
4th level spell - cost 7 pp worth - cap 15d6 - worth 15 pp: value = more than double what a psion gets
5th level spell - cost 9 pp worth - cap 15d6 - worth 15 pp: value = 3 spell levels more than a psion gets
6th level spell - cost 11 pp worth - cap 15d6 - worth 15 pp: value = 2 spell levels more than a psion gets
7th level spell - cost 13 pp worth - cap 20d6 - worth 20 pp: value = as much as a max strength psion power
8th level spell - cost 15 pp worth - cap 25d6 - worth 25 pp: value = 5 spell levels above psionics
9th level spell - cost 17 pp worth - cap 32d6** - worth 32 pp: value = almost double its cost, 5 dice more than a 20th level psion using empower power gets
* - Unless of course we're talking scorching ray, capped at 12d6, worth 4 times what a psion gets
** - if meteor swarm is any indication
Psionics "burn out" not because of a lack of power, but because they have just as much power as a Wizard or Sorcerer, but are able to expel it at a MUCH more rapid rate. This, in my eyes, is a TREMENDOUS strength, and gives psionics an Impact per Round greater then any other single class. Add in that, as I pointed out above, a psionic should not have stamina issues in a well formed party, since the "novas" he gets are more then adequate for a day, and if not, then more then likely the Wizard or Cleric is in almost as much trouble as he is. Fortunately, the resources he spent SAVED overall resources for the party, thus allowing them to finish this combat without his aid. The Wizard on the other hand, is probably down to 4th level spells, since his lower level spells lack the Impact to end combat as quickly as his higher level spells, thus drawing out combat, thus making him and his party expend more and more resources, round after round, long after the psionic combat has ended.
Psions "burn out" because they have to pay out the ears to match the strength of arcane casters no matter what they use to do it. This is true at basically all levels, but is most evident at high levels.
This is one of many reasons psionics can be considered overpowered, but I consider it the main reason. Their "better then spontaneous casters" spontaneous manifesting, the incredibly flexibility of their powers, and the fact that being psionic grants a VAST array of options that non psionic characters get no part of, all contribute to make psionics a powerful, dare I say broken, addition to the game.
I firmly believe that psions are spontaneous casters the way they should have been done. I think the spontaneous casters need a shot in the arm to get to even with prepared casters as it stands right now. Furthermore, the flexibility in their powers is something that all spontaneous casters should have had in my mind. It makes them fun to play and less frustrating than dealing with some of the clunkier elements of the sorcerer, which is the selling point of a spontaneous caster in my mind.
As for options, if you think that manifesters get too many options, then tell me how I play a psion who can do any of the following effects:
Black Tentacles
Cloudkill
Forcecage
Meteor Swarm
Anything from the school of illusion
Anything from the school fo necromancy
Bigby's Hand Spells
Power Word Spells
Gate
Summoning
Planar Binding/Planar Ally
In conclusion, I think the warlock principal is ill applied to psionics, because its fundamental assumption isn't true. I think the OP's points miss the larger picture, and I strongly encourage anyone to give psionics a try and decide for themselves how they view it.
I play an 18th level manifester, I play with an 18th level Rogue and an 18th level Cleric. Simply put, I don't outperform him any more than he does me. We're both seasoned players and know how to create a good build-so there's no disparity in skill level or execution.
These are some trends I've noticed during our play, with regard to my ability as a manifester and his as a traditional caster:
With his domain spells and a massive list of spells to draw upon, (between the spell compendium and PHB) I'm always amazed at the rabbits he pulls out of his hat. He has a great diversity that really pays off for us, where I'm decidedly more limited in my permanent selection. I have a good bag of tricks certainly, but he really has the resources to take on anything no matter how specific. I can too, but at an experience cost with Psychic Reformation.
I don't have big area damage powers. Energy Wave is a measley d4 damage and that's the best cone you can get for psions. Ultra Blast is a fifteen foot radius with a will save. My big damage dealers are Mind Thrust and Disintegrate, the former is Will negates and the latter requires a touch attack. Both powers are single target too. I didn't think much of this at first until we played a large skirmish recently with a lot of enemy Illithids and Ulitharids. Even playing my powers to the max I just simply could not do as much damage as he could to large groups of enemies. I could not match his Ice Flowers, Flame Strikes, and Holy Words. The Rogue and I literally sat back and watched the destructive fireworks fly from Gwarfzilla. (He calls himself The Gwarf, or used to anyway...) It was then I realized I could never match his prowess in that theatre of battle.
I can access some spells that are similar in the psychokinesis tree (I'm a psion) but a feat is a significant cost. You say that it isn't but as an active psion to burn a feat for one power, is a big cost. I don't have a lot of feats to burn up on one power. Guy has a lot more Hp than I do.
This is all I can think of from recent observation, but I'll post more if I think of it.
Another way of viewing this is would you rather have 1,000,000 dollars right now or one cent constantly doubled each day, over 1 year. That one cent gets bigger, eventually surpassing a million by a great degree at the end of the year. Psionics vs. magic works on that same principle, a psion can dump everything into one shot, but that one shot still has saving throws, they still have the limit to what they can channel in. They might destroy big baddie in room one, but they can't do anything after that.
Also, the other thing most people forget, let's compare to wizards, wizards who can learn effectively any spell. Wizards have a lot of versatility especially when doing spell combos. Yes, a psion can get some cool powers, but most of their best combos are very draining. In a game I ran we have a psion and a wizard, the psion has been doing, overall, less total damage than the wizard has and usually runs out sooner. The game currently has them in a ruined temple racing another group to get a relic out of the temple. The psion has been useful in areas where magic is dampened but overall the power total still puts the wizard in the lead.
Another point to note is how a wizard’s powers automatically scale for free but a psions powers don't. In order to get scaling they need to spend power points PERIOD. If the psion wants to deal anywhere near as much damage as with wizard or sorcerer he is pumping far more energy into the powers. He has different rules for it, yes, but it's similar to the warlock vs. standard caster argument. At low levels, or combat-exclusive games the warlock or psion excel, but at higher levels, and when combat isn't the only thing happening then you see the wizard and sorcerer pulling way ahead.
Also keep in mind, when any player using a psionic character starts to run low on power points, they will start to use less power points on each power. The Psion will know that if combat lasts beyond a minute or two, they will be useless if they have spent all of their power points on earlier rounds.
Looking at the argument based on The Warlock Principle is a new view, but it doesn't encompass the whole picture. There is an entire mosaic of encounters beyond the single combat encounter tile. There is also a finite limit to the psion's power points. It is a limit that will be watched carefully after the first time the psion runs out of PP and is reduced to firing a crossbow for a fight or two. (While the Sorcerer, Wizard and other casters are still firing lower level spells.)
The best thread I know of that deals with keeping psionics balanced is this one. New DM's and Player's Guide To Psionics
The problem of a Psion spamming all of his power points to end all of the day's combat is actually not a balance problem at all. It's a playstyle problem. Any style that focuses on combat for most of the encounters will likely favor the psion. Adding in RP encounters and non-combat encounters will force a psion to adapt to the changing needs of the party/environment. Encounters with nonstandard enemies, like flying or incorporeal enemies, will actually hamper a psion more than a wizard or sorcerer. Psions get very few force powers, if any. And flying enemies can give any good party fits if they aren't prepared.
Balance consists of much more than just Impact. A warlock might do a limited amount of damage in battle, but he can make up for it by providing the party flexibility through items/being self sufficient. The warlock might have also dispelled a long series of magical traps or flown above a pit trap to pull a vital switch. A psion will make his PP useful in other situations than combat by taking a variety of powers as well. Or he'll take powers that don't require the maximum investment of PP for a good return.
It's a good argument from a unique viewpoint but I'm still not convinced that psionics are overpowered. Impact just doesn't factor in anything beyond encounters per day/damage output. Any spellcaster can do loads of damage in combat. It's where they put that damage that matters.
...17 fully augmented 9th level powers, more then the wizards/druids 9th, 8th, 7th, and 6th level spells COMBINED...
Also, I am just curious as to whether you have personally played psionic characters. I ask because I see a lot of threads that go something like, "Psions are strong enough that they won't run out of power points." "Well, I've played a psion, and I run out all the time." I never have, myself, so I can't speak to it either way.
You didn't mention it specifically, but several abilities even increase this "Impact per Round", such as Overchannel and its big brother, Wild Surge. These allow the psychic classes to burn even more points per round, which effectively increases their power.
Now, while this is not meant to really counter your point, I would make the observation that other casters will often provide more out of combat service than a psion. Certainly, a blaster-mage versus a blaster-psion is no contest, but a wizard does have his massive spell selection. He may not be the best explosives expert, but if you need a Rope Trick or a quick illusion, he's often the one to go to. The sorcerer does not compare favorably *at all* to the psion, though.
Number 1, you cannot lump the Psion, the Wilder, and the Soulknife into a single sweeping generalization. You are showing your lack of experience playing each class, as they play very differently from one to the other.
Number 2, you are not taking the "Utility Factor" into consideration. What Psions have in versatility, they lose in overall range in what they can accomplish with their powers. This is very exaggerated in the Wilder, who's "Utility" range is second worst, rivaled only by the Warlock. The 20th Wilder gains 11 powers TOTAL, with 2 1st level powers, 2 9th level powers, and a SINGLE power for every other spell level. You have to sweat EVERY power selection, while Sorcerer knows more than either. If the Wizard doesn't like what he's memorized, He can learn an entirely new arsenal the next day. The Psion/Wilder must be of a minimum level to choose a power to change their repertoire. Once they are of the minimum level, they can only do it once per level gained. I will say, the jury is still out on this power, though.
You speak of using 7 9th level powers for a Psion, vs. 4 9th level spells for a Wizard. Break it down, though.
A) What's the situation the PCs are in? By using all PP's for 9th level powers, he has effectively narrowed his arsenal to a choice of 3 powers, while the Wizards still have 36 spells to use. Who's got better Utility range there? Just because they can use all 9th level powers, doesn't mean those are the best choices for that encounter.
B) Again, there are times when a Wizard can wait 8 hours and learn other 9th level spells, to which there is no limit as to how many he can have in his spellbook. Psion? 3. That's it. Wilder? 2. That's all.
C) Power scaling is versatile, but they have to pay for it while the Wiz/Sorc get it for free just by going up in levels. I don't have my books in front of me (I'm at work so hopefully somone can give specific numbers), but if a high level Psion wants to equal damage of a high level wizard's fireball (10d6 I think) the Psion must shell out more points to get the same effect, which is the equivalent of a 5th level spell (I think).
The Psion must "burn" harder just to keep up with the sheer output a Wizard has, and when he's out, the Wizard will still have quite a bit left up his sleeve.
D) It's the players' job to ration out his power points for the day. If knows his DM will only throw a couple of encounters at them per day, he will know he doesn't need to spread them out. There is also a manifester cap which prevents them from using more than their level each turn in PP's. Any DM worth his salt will know this and not toss out a single encounter for the entire session/day. Any DM with 1/2 a clue will also know not to let them recover all their PP's back at the end of a game session, even though it hasn't been a full day in game time. This leads to...
E) If a DM lets psionics into a game, he should be well versed in the rules mechanics. I know for a fact there are DMs who, like psionics or not, at time let players use them without even looking at them. Often the PLAYER will take advantage of this, forget certain caps or other limitations, breaking the game, and then leaving the indifferent DMs hating it, and the DMs against it further hating it. This doesn't make psionics broken.
For better (and civilized) discussions on this, feel free to come over to the Psionics board where they will probably do a more thorough job of elaborating on what I've just written.
Furthermore, to some extent, I will agree with you; a psion is, in a wholly combat-driven campaign, a more effective battle caster-equivalent than a wizard in neutral circumstances.
Why, then, do I feel that this is not an entirely conclusive proof?
A few reasons.
First and foremost, I note the heavy parallel drawn between the spontaneous manifesting psion class and the prepared casting wizard class. This, I feel, is fallacious, because it fails to take into account the wizard's greatest strength; prepared casting.
That's right; prepared casting is a strength. As a wizard, so long as I am able to glean a general idea of what the future may hold in store for me, I will never be caught off balance; if I am to assist in a raiding party against an orc encampment, I will prepare fireball and scorching ray; if I am to assist in discerning the true identity of the murderer of the mayor's daughter, I will prepare detect poison, detect thoughts, and charm person. I will never have the spontaneous caster's plight of needing to perpetually worry about the utility of my spells; every day's spell list can be fine-tuned and specialized to my exact needs. Should there be enough prospective leisure time in the day, I may even leave a blank spell slot to achieve an emulation of spontaneous changes to adapting circumstances. Though it is true that I will occasionally be caught off guard by an ambush, or not expect the criminal to come rushing at me with a knife after I discern his identity, I will be stronger as a whole; with but a few spell slots invested in 'emergency' spells, I will display a level of competence directly proportional to my own foresight.
This is a strength the psion lacks; the power of day-to-day adaptability. Though it's true that a psion's powers are adjustable in magnitude, a good mechanism for preventing old powers from becoming outdated, a normal psion cannot afford the specialization that a wizard can achieve on a daily basis. That I can manifest a 20d6 energy ray with sonic element to destroy a lock doesn't make it better than the 2nd level Knock spell the wizard should have rightly prepared (or at least left a slot open for, starving the party of only 15 minutes).
While a psion may strictly be a better warrior, we do not measure the usefulness of classes based solely on their damage output capabilities; would we, we would consider a rogue built around springing traps, maneuvering terrain, or enthralling people with diplomacy far inferior to the 2 CHA barbarian with a great axe.
Furthermore, while you address free scaling in your article, you dismiss it with little more than a wave of the hand. This, I respectfully disagree on. I believe you underestimate the impact of free scaling.
For example, consider Fireball. Capping at 10d6 damage for a third level spell, it's considered one of the key spells of wizards. The most comparable psion power, a fourth level kineticist-only power known as Energy Ball. Looking at Energy Ball, we see a simple conversion formula: 1 PP = +1d6 damage. The wizard or sorcerer, in casting Fireball at or beyond level 10, pays the equivalent of 5 PP. To mirror this effect, the psion must pay 10 PP -- twice as much -- to emulate the effect. For the benefit of being able to cast Fireball as frequently as they want (within their PP limits), they are effectively forced to pay twice as much.
This is, of course, not an entirely fair comparison; the Psion's 10d6 Energy Ball, for twice the price of the wizard's 10d6 Fireball, will have a DC 2 higher than the latter. That is comparable to giving the wizard the option to burn two fireballs for the option of launching a single one with a slightly higher DC -- barring rather unusual circumstances, the majority of us would consider this to be wasted resources.
Furthermore, assuming a normal DM, there will not consistently be four battles per day. On some days, there will be six upward, and the psion will suffer. On others, there may only be a single encounter, and the psion will shine. On others yet, there may be no encounter at all, but plenty of uses for the wizard's fly, knock, and floating disc spells. Assuming the DM is not wholly predictable, this introduces a psychological self-restriction on the psion, what I will call the uncertainty principle.
Just as the wizard benefits the most from the use of foresight, so might a psion benefit from figuring how much battle they will be seeing in any given day. Unlike the wizard, who can simply write off chance with a few emergency spells and good reasoning, a psion's every choice in battle is a gambit. Should I manifest an overchanneled Astral Construct now, I may not have the resources to reliably fend off an ambush at night. If I can know infallibly that this will be the only battle this day, then I can be liberal with my resources and prevail. However, should I treat a four-encounter day as though it were a one-encounter day, or even a six-encounter day as though it were a one-encounter day, I will most likely suffer for it. It is not whether or not the psion's intelligent decisions will make the combat shorter! It's whether to make the gambit in the first place. Many players, I have found, have an inherent degree of paranoia; I have only once seen a wizard empty all his spells, or a psion blow away his full PP reserve. There is a certain security in knowing that there is still a supply of one's combat resource at one's disposal, so that should bad become worse, they will at least have a safety net to fall back on. Without this uncertainty, a psion can be truly fearsome indeed. A psion's ultimate restriction is based in itself.
This is not to say that impact per round is not important; it is. The warlock is a valid (and actually rather well done) class. Both the warlock for his infinite casting and the psion for his high impact lack one key trait, however; the ability to specialize on a daily basis.
Disciplines greatly restrict the versatility of a psion's individual power selection, and add another level of balance. Take the average Sorcerer. Said Sorcerer can have individual buffing powers, polymorph, shapechange, fireball, Cone of Cold, Antimagic Field, Levitate, Teleport, Time Stop, Wish, Limited Wish, Summoner Monster I - IX, Charm, Dominate, etc., psions will only have access to one set of the more powerful powers from an individual discipline unless they blow a feat for it.
For example, if I make a sorcerer, I can take Charm, Dominate, Fireball and any Summon Monster spell I want. To do this with a Psion, I can take Charm and Dominate, but I would have to use a feat to get Fireball and another feat to get Summon Monster. And that's no small cost, since every feat I spend on getting powers that wizards and sorcerers have default access to is a feat I can't use to improve my powers in some other way, via metapsionics, psionic feats, or making Psionic Focusing something that can be used regularly in combat (which takes feats, generally 3, and is required for any heavy use of metapsionics, unlike arcane casters, who basically get it for free).
“The Warlock Principle” is the thing the designers of the Warlock used when creating the Warlock (I read it in an interview with the creators of CA, forgive the fact I don't have a link). The Warlock Principle says that after around 5th level, a spellcaster has more then enough spell slots to last him the day. At that point, it’s more about his "Impact per Round" (The amount of impact he has on a combat on a per round basis. From now on, this will simply be called "Impact"). Since a spellcaster will not see enough rounds of combat to drop all of his spells, how much each spell is worth is far more important. Using this reasoning, the Warlock was allowed to have unlimited uses of his powers because his "Impact" will be much less then an average spellcaster. If we accept this to be true, then the reasons for psionics being unbalanced become quite obvious.
I think that you misstate the “Warlock Principle” in an important way.
Here is the original link and quote:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5554524&postcount=410
RE: New invocations. We may have a book coming out in 2006 that will feature some, but you won't see any new ones before then. I'm afraid there isn't really a set process for thinking up new invocations, other than "look at what a sorcerer or wizard could do at least 5 times per day." In other words, an 8th-level warlock could replicate a 2nd-level spell, maybe a 3rd-level spell, with an invocation. But the invocation would have to fit the flavor. Warlocks tend to be selfish casters, too--don't give out many buff-your-friends or move-your-friends abilities. Most warlock stuff should hurt people or help the warlock and only the warlock.
So it is “look at what a spellcaster could do 5 times a day” ... not “after 5th level a spellcaster has more than enough slots to last him the day.” The basic idea is has to do with scaling effect. The Sorcerer is able to do his stuff 5 times a round and still has access to his higher and lower level spells. With the warlock they restricted both his access to high level spells like effects and the number of effects.
The Psion has a touch more flexibility in the use of his powers than the sorcerer given the PP system, but has less endurance and his base power effects are usually less powerful. Most psionic powers are less good than their arcane counterparts (with some exceptions). Futher powers do not scale for free the way spells do. The 10th level Sorcerer casts a 3 level spell and gets 10d6 damage ... while the Psion has augment his power paying as much for his 3rd level power to do 10d6 damage as he would have to manifest a 5th level one. So he is basically spending a 5th level slot to do what the Sorcerer can with a 3rd level one.
Both the Warlock and the Psion are better than the Sorcerer at some things but far worse at others. The Warlock wins in endurance but looses in power and flexibility. The Psion can manifest a single power more often than the Sorcerer can cast one spell, but looses on endurance and free scaling.
That smells of good balance to me. Anyway you can argue about “Impact per round” but it has little to do with the Warlock and it’s design principles IMO.
Some have mentioned how Psion 20s have far more PP than Wiz 20s on the spell point system. However, others have mentioned how magic-users, due to the inherent increased effects of spells for free at higher caster level (e.g. +1d6 damage per caster level, hence a Wiz 10 or higher is basically getting a 10 PP on some 3rd level slots instead of 5), that in the end it works out to be about the same. I agree with this.
Keeping this in mind, let us imagine what happens in the extreme case of a Psion 20 or Wiz 20 being swarmed by goblins. For hours.
A Wiz 20 would be able to take out scores of goblins with a single spell. The Psion 20 can do that with a single power. But if he doesn't augment his powers too much, the Psion can get off far more powers than the wizard gets off spells. Because the Psion can use 2 x 5 PP energy powers for every fireball the wizard casts. And 5d6 (or 5d4) or 10d6 are both more than enough to kill a goblin. See where I'm going?
Basically, psions gain the versatility to "pitch" or adjust the strength of their powers, saving resources when they can afford to. This could potentially be very unbalancing.
But then, firstly, you don't often get into such scenarios - you're usually fighting opponents of equal or higher power level so you give them all you've got (hence the importance of "Impact"). And secondly, psions have limited power selection.
In conclusion -- it kinda balances out in the end. They have different strengths in different scenarios - but then doesn't everything?
A Wiz 20 would be able to take out scores of goblins with a single spell. The Psion 20 can do that with a single power. But if he doesn't augment his powers too much, the Psion can get off far more powers than the wizard gets off spells. Because the Psion can use 2 x 5 PP energy powers for every fireball the wizard casts. And 5d6 (or 5d4) or 10d6 are both more than enough to kill a goblin. See where I'm going?
Basically, psions gain the versatility to "pitch" or adjust the strength of their powers, saving resources when they can afford to. This could potentially be very unbalancing.
But then again, the wizard has much more flexibility in its powers. The average wizard (unless Evocation is a banned school) is going to have fireball and a slew of other DD AoE spells -- delayed blast fireball, cone of cold, horrid wilting, etc. The average psion might not have energy ball, energy cone, etc, and unless a kineticist, can't pick them up without a feat. The inherent nature of a psion's limited powers balances this. So too does discipline -- sure, any psion can get energy ball, but unless they are one particular type of psion, they pay far more than a wizard does for it, and if they are that particular type of psion, that is the only thing they do well, unless they pay to be able to do something else well.
I think that you misstate the “Warlock Principle” in an important way.
Here is the original link and quote:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5554524&postcount=410
So it is “look at what a spellcaster could do 5 times a day” ... not “after 5th level a spellcaster has more than enough slots to last him the day.” The basic idea is has to do with scaling effect. The Sorcerer is able to do his stuff 5 times a round and still has access to his higher and lower level spells. With the warlock they restricted both his access to high level spells like effects and the number of effects.
Actually, I didn't misquote, that’s a totally different interview. Here’s the one I’m talking about.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20041105b
Particularly this part:
Wizards: Let's start with the warlock, then. What are the biggest advantages and disadvantages to this new standard character class?
Rich Baker: The warlock's biggest advantage is no real limit on the number of times per day he can use his powers. (He's got a couple of powers with limited uses per day, but 90 percent of his powers have no such restriction.) The thinking here is that in most D&D games, your characters are probably going to be in only 15 to 20 rounds of combat between rests and spell recoveries. So after your spellcaster has a total daily spell allocation of 20 spells or more (say, around 5th level), his real limit is the number of actions he gets per day -- the number of specific opportunities he has to cast a spell. So the warlock is still bound to the same ultimate limit that any moderate-level wizard deals with. Now, it's pretty useful to never run out of attack options, and the warlock can blast you over and over again with his eldritch blast. So what he gives up is spell versatility. The warlock knows only a handful of different tricks. On the bright side, the tricks are all spooky, creepy, and oozing with flavor.
And since as pointed out. a Psionics powers will have WAY more average impact then a spellcasters spells, the number of rounds of combat is even smaller for them, since they can end combats sooner, again, AVERAGLY, yes the wizards got some 9th level spells, but over the course of a day, and pay attention as this is basically the crux of my argument, a psions impact will be greater, which means less rounds of combat which completely negates their lack of stamina when compared to spellcasters..
And since as pointed out. a Psionics powers will have WAY more average impact then a spellcasters spells, the number of rounds of combat is even smaller for them, since they can end combats sooner, again, AVERAGLY, yes the wizards got some 9th level spells, but over the course of a day, and pay attention as this is basically the crux of my argument, a psions impact will be greater, which means less rounds of combat which completely negates their lack of stamina when compared to spellcasters..
Which ends up with psionic characters being balanced, which is the point of those who've been disagreeing with you. Compared to a wizard, a psion has quite a limited number of tricks (all wizards, by default, know 40+ spells at level 20, which is more than psions before scribing spells), and a Wilder might as well be a warlock for the number of abilities he/she gets. Sure, a psion or a wilder can nova, and do insane things, but only a very limited number of times per day; I'd hope that if a wizard put as much effort into a single spell (somehow dumping half her/his spell slots into a single casting) that a similar effect would be produced.
And so we've come full circle. Yes, manifesters can achieve a level of power casters can not, but at the price of versatility and at an appropriate price, just like casters can achieve a level of power that warlocks can not, but at an appropriate price.
Which ends up with psionic characters being balanced, which is the point of those who've been disagreeing with you. Compared to a wizard, a psion has quite a limited number of tricks (all wizards, by default, know 40+ spells at level 20, which is more than psions before scribing spells), and a Wilder might as well be a warlock for the number of abilities he/she gets. Sure, a psion or a wilder can nova, and do insane things, but only a very limited number of times per day; I'd hope that if a wizard put as much effort into a single spell (somehow dumping half her/his spell slots into a single casting) that a similar effect would be produced.
And so we've come full circle. Yes, manifesters can achieve a level of power casters can not, but at the price of versatility and at an appropriate price, just like casters can achieve a level of power that warlocks can not, but at an appropriate price.
Saying "Half his spell slots" is grossly in accurate. As I sad, at 20th level, a Psionic has enough BASE PP for 17 fully augmented powers. Not a big chunk of resources to drop a fully augmented power.
Secondly, most of these "Weaknesses" are eliminated in the presence of a party. With a party, a psionic ending combat faster then an arcanist suddenly means A LOT and his fellow party members can solve any pesky "Versatility" problems, hell, a character with UMD can take care of it. Add in that psions DO get quite a considerable amount of powers (36 total, many of which mimic multiple spells via augmentation) and that wilders get even more impact (for FREE I might add) thanks to Wild Surge. It seems to me that in a standard party a Psionic is far more desirable to have then a Wizard, especially if you have a 5th member, a bard, artificer, warlock, or even another divine caster who combined with the cleric will be more then adequate trouble shooting. Seems like a no lose situation to me.
Secondly, most of these "Weaknesses" are eliminated in the presence of a party.
Saying "it doesn't matter that a psion can't do other things, because you can have other party members do that for you" would be like someone else saying "it doesn't matter that a wizard can't outdamage a psion, because you can just have a psion do it."
Add in that psions DO get quite a considerable amount of powers (36 total, many of which mimic multiple spells via augmentation) and that wilders get even more impact (for FREE I might add) thanks to Wild Surge.
That's not an "and" situation. It's an "or" situation. You can be a psion with 36 powers (albeit it from a selection limited by discipline) OR you can get free extra impact from a wilder. Neither class gets both.
And forgive me for not rereading the entire thread again, but has anyone mentioned yet that there are something like ten times as many wizard/sorcerer spells as there are psion/wilder powers? The versatility isn't just in spells/powers known; it's in the selection available.
Saying "Half his spell slots" is grossly in accurate. As I sad, at 20th level, a Psionic has enough BASE PP for 17 fully augmented powers. Not a big chunk of resources to drop a fully augmented power.
Which is irrelevant. A 20th level psion can drop 17 fully augmented powers. A wizard has a base of 40 or (for a specialist) 49 spell slots. The wizard might only have a base of 4 to 5 lvl 9 spells, but that wizard also has free scaling for level 6+ spells, which for damage go upto 20 dice. That's 12 to 16 spell slots -- where's the massive chunk of resources to drop the "fully augmented power" for the wizard?
Secondly, most of these "Weaknesses" are eliminated in the presence of a party. With a party, a psionic ending combat faster then an arcanist suddenly means A LOT and his fellow party members can solve any pesky "Versatility" problems, hell, a character with UMD can take care of it.
I would hope so -- just like the wizard becomes more powerful because of the prescence of the psion. If I'm a wizard, and there's a telepath in the party, then I don't really need to worry about enchantment spells that much. Indeed, to become fully effective with such a character, I can drop enchantment and another school to get an extra 9 spell slots and toss out an extra Finger of Death or Meteor Swarm per day.
Obviously, any properly built party is going to be able to exploit the inherent specializations and limitation of its individual members to produce the greatest amount of effect. This applies to every single class. Should we start banning Fighters because they can be buffed by clerics? Or rogues because they can get Improved Invisibility from the wizard?
Versatility doesn’t mean much for the psion in the right party because he/she's got someone else who can cover that whole in her/his abilities if a wizard's there, not because it magically stops mattering, just like a fighter in a party with a cleric all of the sudden has less issues with magical healing.
Add in that psions DO get quite a considerable amount of powers (36 total, many of which mimic multiple spells via augmentation)
Yes, they do. And wizards, as I pointed out, get 40+ as a base. They probably have so many more options available at all levels that it's staggering. Augmentation helps this to a degree, but but it still doesn't let you get more than those 36 powers, unlike a wizard who will probably have literally over a hundred spells by level 20.
and that wilders get even more impact (for FREE I might add) thanks to Wild Surge.
Do you know what wilders actually do? First, it's not for free. It's a gamble. For each "free" manifester level I boost, I run a 5% chance to lose an action and a number of PP equal to my wilder level. That means that at level 20, statistically speaking, a wilder pays 1 PP for every "free" manifester level she gets.
Secondly, the Wilder has 11 powers. Sorcerers have 34. There's no comparison there. Yes, the Wilder has a better BAB and can use light armor and most shields. However, the class has fewer powers than a warlock. Without augmentation, the class would be totally worthless.
Third, the Wilder has to use feats to get any of the best powers, because they all appear on discipline lists that the Wilder doesn't have access to.
Sorry, but any objective analysis of the class shows that it needs a boost, not that it is some overpowered death machine. It's only special ability, Wild Surge, is actually a detriment to the class, as well as counter intuitive, since it costs more to use as you level (the % chance to fail per manifester level doesn't chance, but the PP loss increases), and for this overall weak ability, the Wilder has the most limited power selection of any class in the game, both in terms of quantity and quality.
It seems to me that in a standard party a Psionic is far more desirable to have then a Wizard, especially if you have a 5th member, a bard, artificer, warlock, or even another divine caster who combined with the cleric will be more then adequate trouble shooting. Seems like a no lose situation to me.
No. You'd probably want a wizard, who can scribe scrolls for free while the average psion is using starting feats to build up her/his concentration check so he/she can use the psionic focus mechanic and actually use metapsionic feats for those rainy days when someone gets turned to stone. You'd want a wizard to be able to buff, to damage, and do just about everything under the sun, just like you'd want a wizard for any other party, or more likely, a specialist, since you don't need the ability to cover the ground that the psion can. If we are talking a psion, a cleric, and a fighter/barbarian/paladin, I'd defiantly want a specialist wizard, though a rogue would do (since you don't have a skill monkey), because you'd want the cleric to save spells for healing, and the wizard will have access to many abilities that the psion won't.
And yes, if you start adding random casters, then the use of the generalist goes down. Any generalists' value decreases as the number of casters increases due to diminishing returns -- generalists cover other classes holes best of all, and when you have a Dread Necromancer, a Telepath, a Warlock, and a Cleric, there's really aren't many magical holes left to cover. At that point, you're better off with a fighter class or a rogue.
You can't say that a wizard does more damage per day than the psion. What matters is damage per round and frequency this damage can be done. In this category, psions win hand down because they get 13 or 14 uses of their best powers per day, while wizards get 3 or 4.
Free scaling. Every damage spell of level 6+ goes up to 20 dice of damage. So, actually, the wizard has about 12 to 16 uses of her/his best spells per day.
Basically, it works like this. The Cap on most spells makes them unusable in terms of impact. Here’s why. At the higher levels, such "Capped" spells will more often then not simply be a wasted round. A 15th level caster using Fireball for instance has done little more then waste a round of combat, which as I (rather Richard Baker) pointed out, a round is far more precious to a spellcaster then a spell. As such, Auto Scaling loses in almost every area of importance to Augmentation (stamina, once again, meaning very little).
Saying "Half his spell slots" is grossly in accurate. As I sad, at 20th level, a Psionic has enough BASE PP for 17 fully augmented powers. Not a big chunk of resources to drop a fully augmented power.
And? At 20th level, a Cleric has enough base spell slots to provide 5 spells each from the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th levels. That's 20 spells, which get free scaling. A sorc has 18 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells. Augmenting is paying for what casters get for free, right? A generalist wizard can cast 16 Chain Lightnings a day with just base spell slots, a psion 17 fully augmented Energy Chains. Both of which do 20d6 damage each.
At this point, you've got to convince me that 17 fully augmented Ego Whips are as good as 6 Dominate Monsters, or that 20 Microcosms are as good as potentially 15 Holy Words, or so on. The fact that they are fully augmented does not guarantee that they will be better than equivalent level spells even if they cost more.
Secondly, most of these "Weaknesses" are eliminated in the presence of a party.
A psion is not allowed to work with a party? He's not allowed to have his friends compensate for his weaknesses? Mages like party members because they do that, and let's not hold a double standard here. Let me formulate your sentence better: a psion needs a party to help him through his stamina problem, unless he's willing to run from a lot of fights.
With a party, a psionic ending combat faster then an arcanist suddenly means A LOT and his fellow party members can solve any pesky "Versatility" problems, hell, a character with UMD can take care of it.
You don't really think that arcanists can't end combats RIGHT NOW when they need to, do you?
Add in that psions DO get quite a considerable amount of powers (36 total, many of which mimic multiple spells via augmentation) and that wilders get even more impact (for FREE I might add) thanks to Wild Surge.
Issue one: please do not imply that somehow spellcasters are starved for versatility in comparison. Second, no class besides the Wilder has a class feature that becomes more and more likely to backfire on you as you increase in level.
It seems to me that in a standard party a Psionic is far more desirable to have then a Wizard, especially if you have a 5th member, a bard, artificer, warlock, or even another divine caster who combined with the cleric will be more then adequate trouble shooting. Seems like a no lose situation to me.
I'd like to point you back to DisposableHero's post, specifically where he concluded with all the stuff Wizards get that Psions do not. Shrink Item alone is a massive advantage, as any CO player who's doused foes in expanding gallons of alchemist's fire will tell you. If you want Illusions that don't require immediate Will saves, or cool necromantic effects including energy drain that doesn't require immediate Fort saves, or summons with spell-like abilities, or shapechanging you can share with the rest of the party, or Contingency without having to pay XP for it every time, or a number of other cool stuff, then you take an arcanist.
You might be able to "deal" with a few choice encounters like this, but you will be sore for power points over the next set of encounters.
That said I do appreciate the versatility of being able to blow a large chunk of my power (even if it is at decreased overall efficiency), since this allows a party to deal more effectively with high powered single opponents. It's not usually hard to grind opponents. Wand of Cure "X" wounds, and a fighter is usually all that is required. Maybe your casters throw in a few level 1-3 powers for kicks, but this doesn't really affect either one's 9th level powers. That said when a walking can of whoop
comes your way I like to be able to throw as much as I can in their direction.A wizard can try to duplicate the ability of the psion to use a larger percentage of total power in a single round, but this too costs him resources. A psion must spends feats and potentially items, but so does the wizard. Sudden maximize and a greater rod of quickening are not free.
Of course I will still almost always prefer the wizard over the psion because the wizard has access to the archmage class for bonus caster levels straight up, and a couple items to raise caster level to boot.
And if you try and shift the discussion to a wilder with overchannel then you have serious problems. The wilder is paying through his eyes, teeth, ears, and nose for that increased casting ability. He knows 11 powers without feats at level 20... Sorry but that kind of decreased versatility relegates the Wilder to little more than a blasting platform, and the warmage is essentially his equal at this if not his better.
I appreciate the strengths of psionics in that their information gathering powers tend to be a little better (Remote Viewing and Metafaculty anyone?), and that their damage dealing powers are somewhat useful. But this doesn't make them anywhere near leaps and bounds ahead of the wizard.
MTF
Saying "Half his spell slots" is grossly in accurate. As I sad, at 20th level, a Psionic has enough BASE PP for 17 fully augmented powers. Not a big chunk of resources to drop a fully augmented power.
Not to nitpick, but, for a 20th level psion, a "fully augmented" power tends to cost 20 PPs, and psions only have 343 base PPs at that level. I believe what you actually mean is unaugmented 9th level powers.
That being said, throwing around an effect which costs 17+ PPs isn't quite the same thing as throwing a 9th level spell; a 20-die Energy Ray probably won't hurt nearly as badly as a Mordenkainen's Disjunction (especially so if the target is a buffer). Heck, you could get roughly the same effect with a druid's fire seed acorn grenade with only a 6th level spell slot.
Secondly, most of these "Weaknesses" are eliminated in the presence of a party. With a party, a psionic ending combat faster then an arcanist suddenly means A LOT and his fellow party members can solve any pesky "Versatility" problems, hell, a character with UMD can take care of it.
A vorpal sword is made to cut off heads; if there aren't any heads to cut off, it doesn't suddenly become another, more useful tool until there are, but rather remains a vorpal sword. If the fighters don't have anything to fight, the rogues don't have anything to sneak attack, and the clerics don't have anything to heal, then everyone goes to bed with their daily renewable resources (such as hit points and spell slots) utterly wasted, while the "superblaster" finds himself unable to make the party invisible, help them fly, identify and dispel magic effects, bypass un-disarmable traps, speed travel, or even beat the wizard hiding behind a Globe of Invulnerability (since superblaster decided to assume all his 1st level attack spells were as good as 9th level ones). (Spells like Elminster's Effulgent Epuration and Spell Turning provide the same sort of fun.)
Add in that psions DO get quite a considerable amount of powers (36 total, many of which mimic multiple spells via augmentation)
This statement is highly misleading; how "many" powers are there that really "mimic multiple spells"? Ottiluke's Freezing Sphere "mimics multiple spells". Glitterdust "mimics multiple spells". Kiss of the Vampire "mimics multiple spells". Eyebite "mimics multiple spells". Greater Planar Binding "mimics multiple spells" (when a sorcerer bends a pit fiend to his will and screws it out of its yearly wish).
When an archmage with mastery of elements casts a fireball, it doesn't count as 5 different spells for the purposes of counterspelling or anything; it's still just one spell. The energy powers are always elemental attack spells, with the exact same range and area of effect regardless of which damage type you elect to use each time you cast it. It doesn't grant you some kind of defensive ability, or give you the ability to charm your enemies when you don't want to hurt them, or do force damage, or have any other sort of application other than direct elemental damage. Energy powers are superior when compared to their arcane counterparts (and even lets you change the save type from Ref to Fort), but, despite being nicer, do not simultaneously meet the roles of spells with meaningful differences.
Besides which, 36 powers known is nothing compared to the wizard's potentially infinite spells known (with a spell list that, with every rulebook printed, expands more rapidly than any other class). Of course, a wizard isn't going to know every spell... But he's certainly guaranteed to know as many spells as he wants to, which is more than could be said for the psion.
and that wilders get even more impact (for FREE I might add) thanks to Wild Surge.
It's not free at all; on average, the wilder pays (caster boost x 5% x caster level) in PPs every time he wild surges. In addition to this cost in PPs, he'll also be suffering a cost in actions lost due to being dazed, which, in the case of a wilder blaster, will most certainly happen during combat (roughly every 3rd time he surges).
It seems to me that in a standard party a Psionic is far more desirable to have then a Wizard, especially if you have a 5th member, a bard, artificer, warlock, or even another divine caster who combined with the cleric will be more then adequate trouble shooting. Seems like a no lose situation to me.
With few exceptions, clerics can't teleport around (with or without party members), can't Mordenkainen's disjunction, can't produce mounts for the party that move at 240', can't shape himself out of his own antimagic fields (prior to epic levels), can't subject outsiders to his demands without eating an XP cost and owing them favors later, can't make the whole party look like commoners, etc., and a cleric who can do any two of these things won't be able to do the rest.
The fact that this theoretical party needs a "5th wheel" to help cover its shortcomings would seem to indicate to me that one of the tires isn't working the way it's intended to. If the psion really replaces the wizard in such an all-encompassing fashion, why does the psion-augmented party need more members to make up for a wizard's absence?
(such as open portal, a bards inspire courage and spells such as invisibility that cannot effect others for psions but can effect others for wizards).
Secondly, most of these "Weaknesses" are eliminated in the presence of a party. With a party, a psionic ending combat faster then an arcanist suddenly means A LOT and his fellow party members can solve any pesky "Versatility" problems, hell, a character with UMD can take care of it. Add in that psions DO get quite a considerable amount of powers (36 total, many of which mimic multiple spells via augmentation) and that wilders get even more impact (for FREE I might add) thanks to Wild Surge. It seems to me that in a standard party a Psionic is far more desirable to have then a Wizard, especially if you have a 5th member, a bard, artificer, warlock, or even another divine caster who combined with the cleric will be more then adequate trouble shooting. Seems like a no lose situation to me.
1) The purpose of a party of characters with varied abilities is to so that all bases are covered and the weaknesses of any individual character are covered by the strengths of another, that’s fundamental strategy and not really relevant to the discussion at hand. Warrior types cover for the frail close combat ability of wizards and psions by protecting them from it. Rogues cover the susceptibility of most other characters to magical traps by being able to detect and disarm them. Any specific weakness can be covered by a well built set of teammates and that fact certainly does not make psions, or wilders or any other class over or underpowered, it just means they are a class with strengths and weaknesses.
2) Your argument continues to have the same fatal flaw: You are making the assumption that the ratio of cost to effect for arcane spells and psionic powers is the same, and it most certainly is not.
You have quite accurately pointed out that a psion has the capacity to use his strongest effects more often in a day than a wizard can use his strongest effects, but you miss the boat when you assume that a psions strongest effects are on the same level as a wizard's strongest effects. Here are some examples:
A 20th level psion manifests a 20 point energy ball and deals 20d6 damage, this is an example of the psion's strongest effect.
A 20th level wizard casts a delayed blast fireball and deals 20d6 damage, this is a 7th level spell, an example of the wizard's 3rd strongest set of effects.
A 20th level psion manifests a 20 point psionic disintegrate and deals 40d6 damage on a failed save and 5d6 on a successful save, this is an example of the psion's strongest effect.
A 20th level wizard casts disintegrate and deals 40d6 damage on a failed save and 5d6 on a successful save, this is a 6th level spell, an example of the wizard's 4th strongest effect.
A 20th level psion manifests an empowered 18 point psionic disintegrate and deals 36d6*1.5 damage on a failed save and 5d6*1.5 on a successful save, this is an example of the psion's strongest effect.
A 20th level wizard casts an empowered disintegrate and seals 40d6*1.5 on a failed save and 5d6*1.5 on a successful save, this is an 8th level spell, an example of the wizard's 2nd strongest effect, which the psion is incapable of matching.
other examples where spells are better value than psionic powers
Fly:
Wizard - 3rd level spell
Psion - 4th level discipline specific power
Shapechange:
Wizard - 9th level spell with an arcane focus
Psion - 9th level discipline specific power with an XP cost
Charm Monster:
Wizard - 4th level spell
Psion - 11 Power Points to mimic the effect with psionic charm, equivalent of a 6th level spell
Fireball:
Wizard - 3rd level spell
Psion - Energy Ball: 4th level discipline specific power
Barkskin (CL 12+)
Druid - 2nd level spell, touch range
Psion - Thicken Skin: 13 power points (7th level power equivalent) discipline specific power, personal range
Shield of Faith (CL 18+)
Cleric - 1st level spell, touch range, 1 min/level
Psion - Mental Barrier: 9 power points (5th level power equivalent) personal range, duration 1 round (not one round per level, 1 round)
Greater Magic Weapon (CL 20)
Wizard - 3rd level spell, close range
Psion - Metaphysical Weapon: 21 power points (11th level power equivalent, you need a feat to be able to spend this much on a power prior to epic levels, 2 feats if you want to do it without dealing damage to yourself, 3 if you want to be able to do it again next round, 5 or 6 feats if you want to be good at it), psychic warrior only (psions require a feat to get it), touch range.
Invisibility
Wizard - 2nd level spell
Psion - Mass Cloud Mind: 6th level power, Mind Affecting, allows saving throws, can't be used on objects, can't be used on other creatures, forces you to get within close range of what you are hiding from before it starts working, only hides you from one creature per level
Magic Missile
Wizard - 1st level spell
Psion - Concussion Blast: 2nd level power, 5d6 damage costs 11 power points, power points must be paid for additional targets
Finger of Death
Wizard - 7th level spell, Necromancy [Death]
Psion - Recall Death: 8th level power, Clairsentience [Mind Affecting, Death]
Wizard - 3rd level spell
Psion - 4th level discipline specific power
Shapechange:
Wizard - 9th level spell with an arcane focus
Psion - 9th level discipline specific power with an XP cost
Charm Monster:
Wizard - 4th level spell
Psion - 11 Power Points to mimic the effect with psionic charm, equivalent of a 6th level spell
Fireball:
Wizard - 3rd level spell
Psion - Energy Ball: 4th level discipline specific power
Barkskin (CL 12+)
Druid - 2nd level spell, touch range
Psion - Thicken Skin: 13 power points (7th level power equivalent) discipline specific power, personal range
Shield of Faith (CL 18+)
Cleric - 1st level spell, touch range, 1 min/level
Psion - Mental Barrier: 9 power points (5th level power equivalent) personal range, duration 1 round (not one round per level, 1 round)
Greater Magic Weapon (CL 20)
Wizard - 3rd level spell, close range
Psion - Metaphysical Weapon: 21 power points (11th level power equivalent, you need a feat to be able to spend this much on a power prior to epic levels, 2 feats if you want to do it without dealing damage to yourself, 3 if you want to be able to do it again next round, 5 or 6 feats if you want to be good at it), psychic warrior only (psions require a feat to get it), touch range.
Invisibility
Wizard - 2nd level spell
Psion - Mass Cloud Mind: 6th level power, Mind Affecting, allows saving throws, can't be used on objects, can't be used on other creatures, forces you to get within close range of what you are hiding from before it starts working, only hides you from one creature per level
Magic Missile
Wizard - 1st level spell
Psion - Concussion Blast: 2nd level power, 5d6 damage costs 11 power points, power points must be paid for additional targets
Finger of Death
Wizard - 7th level spell, Necromancy [Death]
Psion - Recall Death: 8th level power, Clairsentience [Mind Affecting, Death]
Sorry, I just had a bit of a brainstorm, so I felt the need to post it. I often have the problem of knowing something, but not quite knowing how to express it. The reason that Auto Scaling is one thing I’ve had difficulty expressing, but I think I have it now.
Basically, it works like this. The Cap on most spells makes them unusable in terms of impact. Here’s why. At the higher levels, such "Capped" spells will more often then not simply be a wasted round. A 15th level caster using Fireball for instance has done little more then waste a round of combat, which as I (rather Richard Baker) pointed out, a round is far more precious to a spellcaster then a spell. As such, Auto Scaling loses in almost every area of importance to Augmentation (stamina, once again, meaning very little).
Which is right, for a lvl 3 spell. Lvl 5 spells scale up to 15 dice (Cone of Cold) and level 6 - 9 spells scale up to 20 dice (Chain Lightning, Delayed Blast Fireball, Horrid Wilting). That's 16 spells for a lvl 20 wizard for 6 - 9, plus 15 dice of damage from 4 more level 5 spells.
1. First off, you’re right. A wizard does have "a lot" of spells 6th level and up that go up to 20 dice of damage. But, your suggesting that a Wizard spends all of his 6th-9th level slots on damage spells? The psionic will still be going when the wizards out of 6th level spells, and the wizards basically forfeiting his greatest strength. A Psionic needs only 2-3 powers to do the same thing, leaving his other powers known open for whatever he wishes. That’s not going into the fact that the Psionic will still have higher DCs and won't be nearly as hurt by energy resist or the fact the wizard will still be inferior to almost everyone, even the sorcerer in the damage area. In short, the psionic can do all that, do it better (better DCs and ignoring energy resist easily), do it longer (17 powers base vs 16 spells base,9th+8th+7th+6th) and still retain versatility.
2. Your comment about 6th level spells have made me realize something. an expansion on my point of the weakness of auto scaling. Spellcasters don't really auto scale at all. As you (objulen and others) pointed out for me, a spellcaster wanting to get past the caps of his lower level spells must prepare higher level spells, effectively, "Paying more" just as the psionic does. The spellcaster doesn't really autoscale at all, a tleast to the extent you claim. Just like the psionic, he’s gotta pay for what he gets, and at the higher levels, to make any real impact in a combat, he’s gotta pay just as much as the psionic.
3. Do you really want to get into the "What one can do the other can't" contest concerning psionics? Oh, I'm sure with the extra books spellcasters have and Complete Psionic not realised yet, you'll win, but psionics can do some sick, sick things that spellcasters can't. Mind switch (one of the most munchkin abilities in the game)? Psychic Reformation (ALSO, one of the most munchkin abilities)? Empathic Transfer? Schisism? Fission? Fusion? Le’ts go a little lower level, how about Vigor? Mental Barrier? How about all those powers that lets you leech power points from other psionic creatures? That’s just the tip of the iceberg. I may be jumping the gun a bit, but in the "I can do things you can't" area, I'm going with psionics, if not in volume, then in sheer effect. And complete psionic still isn't here yet....
4. With the above point in mind, I looked at the psionic power list. A lot of people say Psions are forced into a discipline. While that is true, I noticed that most staples of each discipline is available to all psions sooner or later. All psions can take Divination, Greater Teleport, Energy (Ray/Push/etc), and most of the staples of spellcasters are available to all psions in one way or another(identify, knock, tongues, true seeing, plane shift) with VERY few exceptions. With 36 powers and the intense flexibility of their offensive powers, psions look the fair trouble shooter. And if they need to, they can do what wizards do anyway. Buy/make a bunch of Power Stones of problem solving powers. Plus, if the situation is serious enough to spend XP on it, they can just Revise Reality or Reformat themselves with the appropriate powers..
5. It has been said that a spellcasters strongest effect is stronger then a psionics strongest effect. How so? Both can easily kill a creature on a single saving throw, and the Psionics DCs will almost certainly be higher. Both have wish type powers. In fact, the psionic can do a lot of things that are out of a Spellcasters reach. Create there own plane. Switch Minds with a physically strong creature, both rendering the enemy ineffective while making themselves more powerful (granted this is telepath only). Deleting an enemies powers. Allowing themselves and party members to alter past skills, feats and power/spell choices.
I think that’s enough for one post. To be continued.
1. First off, you’re right. A wizard does have "a lot" of spells 6th level and up that go up to 20 dice of damage. But, your suggesting that a Wizard spends all of his 6th-9th level slots on damage spells?
Nope. Just that he can, and get enough out of it to make a comparison to Psionic stamina pointless. A Psion shouldn't be using all his powers on direct damage either, unless his DM is not thinking things through.
The psionic will still be going when the wizards out of 6th level spells,
No, he won't. 17 20th level powers base, remember? That's exactly one more than all the 16 spells base the generalist wizard gets. Say everyone's Int 26. Bonus power points give you 4 more full augmented powers at 20th level, and a few pp left over for utility. The wizard has three more bonus spells of the 6 to 8th level variety, and all his 5th level and below spells still there - stuff like Magic Jar, Empowered Scorching Rays, etc.
and the wizards basically forfeiting his greatest strength.
This is true. A psion is better at direct damage. This stamina comparison is just to undo the "he's got more than enough pp" myth.
A Psionic needs only 2-3 powers to do the same thing, leaving his other powers known open for whatever he wishes.
Good for him. He's a good blaster. That's nice.
That’s not going into the fact that the Psionic will still have higher DCs
I think this is to make up for Wizards not having to choose between Spell Focus and metamagic (compare Psionic Endowment). That said, the wizard will be saving his best DC slots for save or dies like Wail of the Banshee.
The psion is a better blaster and gets higher Reflex save DCs. Good for him. The wizard is wasted on blasting. If you want a spellcaster that can blast, compare the psion to the Warmage. The blasting efficiency was just for stamina comparisons - if you want to compare save or dies, you're going to run into stuff like Psychic Crush or Mindwipe where the save DC augment is either nonexistent or crippling, and lose - before we get to the wizard's No-save-just-dies. And that's not into battlefield control or summoning yet.
and won't be nearly as hurt by energy resist or the fact the wizard will still be inferior to almost everyone, even the sorcerer in the damage area.
Do. Not. Try. To. Do. Damage. With. A. Wizard. Wizards are wasted on direct damage. Seriously, that's not their strength. No energy resistance will help you against a quickened Grease + Gate to positive energy plane/elemental plane of fire/negative energy plane, your choice + maybe contingent really big vermin summon to provide the bullrush, if the party tank who's been polymorphed into a giant doesn't wish to supply. Note that costs no XP, as it doesn't use the summoning function of Gate and only psionic contingencies cost XP.
In short, the psionic can do all that, do it better (better DCs and ignoring energy resist easily), do it longer (17 powers base vs 16 spells base,9th+8th+7th+6th) and still retain versatility.
If by "all that" you mean "just blasting", and by "longer" you mean "two more times a day before running completely dry while a wizard has all these other little tricks."
2. Your comment about 6th level spells have made me realize something. an expansion on my point of the weakness of auto scaling. Spellcasters don't really auto scale at all. As you (objulen and others) pointed out for me, a spellcaster wanting to get past the caps of his lower level spells must prepare higher level spells, effectively, "Paying more" just as the psionic does. The spellcaster doesn't really autoscale at all, at least to the extent you claim. Just like the psionic, he’s gotta pay for what he gets, and at the higher levels,
He gets a lot more for paying more. Let's see: difference between 10d6 and 20d6 of damage for a psion and a wizard. 20pp Energy Ball - 10 pp Energy Ball = 10 pp, five spell slots equivalence of difference, available 10 levels later. Chain Lightning at level 20 - Fireball at level 10 = 3 spells slots difference, equivalent to 6 pp, available also 10 levels later. If you don't want damage I invite you to compare an augmented Mindwipe to an Energy Drain spell.
to make any real impact in a combat, he’s gotta pay just as much as the psionic.
First, to make any real impact in combat, he shouldn't be doing direct damage, which is what most of the anti-augmentation argument seems to be hinging on. Second, that's patently false, he can pay considerably less.
3. Do you really want to get into the "What one can do the other can't" contest concerning psionics? Oh, I'm sure with the extra books spellcasters have and Complete Psionic not realised yet, you'll win, but psionics can do some sick, sick things that spellcasters can't.
Including supplements is stupid since there are 10 to every single psionics supplement, but yes, I'd love to get into this contest, whether just core or after Complete Psi comes out. The best you can hope for is to prove that the two sets of classes have unique abilities, which is what one should hope as replacing wizards with psions is a poor idea. Overpoweredness will not be proved here.
Mind switch (one of the most munchkin abilities in the game)?
Polymorph Any Object doesn't require 10k exp and can be performed by more than 1 in 6 wizards. Next.
Psychic Reformation (ALSO, one of the most munchkin abilities)?
This makes up for not being able to switch out powers for free, like a sorceror. I invite you to demonstrate
Empathic Transfer?
Clerics heal better, Vampiric Touch is more efficient. Wizards heal by Polymorph or by summoning an outsider, or by Creating a crapload of healing salves out of combat.
Schisism?
A weak man's Quicken Power. Doesn't make up for Metamagic Rods of Quicken. Useful, but not problematic.
Fission? Fusion?
The first is a Schism powered-up, the second halves your actions for combined power. Neither is particularly overpowering, both are discipline specific and high-level.
Lets go a little lower level, how about Vigor?
How about it? This was covered in the Myth thread.
Mental Barrier?
The power that lasts one round?
How about all those powers that lets you leech power points from other psionic creatures?
There are exactly 3 methods I can think of, they depend on psionic enemies, and they all have failure chances. In turn, they can be used against you. Enemies which eat your spell slots are equally uncommon.
That’s just the tip of the iceberg.
You haven't even mentioned the real broken stuff, like Bestow Power, or that Temporal Regression cloning trick (which requires Fission I believe, and is on very shaky ground rules-wise).
I may be jumping the gun a bit, but in the "I can do things you can't" area, I'm going with psionics, if not in volume, then in sheer effect. And complete psionic still isn't here yet....
If you are, you're giving up negative levels that don't require a save first, and the most versatile summoning there is, and shapechanging that can be shared, and illusions that don't require an immediate save, and a number of infinite wealth rulesholes, and so much more that it seems rather silly to make that decision. Your call, though. They're different classes with unique abilities; don't pretend that the Wizard doesn't have tons to bring to the table.
4. With the above point in mind, I looked at the psionic power list. A lot of people say Psions are forced into a discipline. While that is true, I noticed that most staples of each discipline is available to all psions sooner or later. All psions can take Divination, Greater Teleport, Energy (Ray/Push/etc), and most of the staples of spellcasters are available to all psions in one way or another(identify, knock, tongues, true seeing, plane shift) with VERY few exceptions.
Exceptions like our Polymorph equivalent, and the Charm and Dominates, and our only summoning power, and our Spell Turning equivalent, and other stuff too.
With 36 powers and the intense flexibility of their offensive powers, psions look the fair trouble shooter.
Well, they're not a useless troubleshooter by far. With all their 5th level and below spells left after matching the psion's stamina and no limits on spell acquisition, a wizard need not fear being outshone.
And if they need to, they can do what wizards do anyway.
Some, but not all.
Buy/make a bunch of Power Stones of problem solving powers.
Like wizards do with scrolls?
Plus, if the situation is serious enough to spend XP on it, they can just Revise Reality or Reformat themselves with the appropriate powers.
Wish, Limited Wish costs less than Bend Reality, and you can't steal 'powerbooks' off the bodies of dead psions.
5. It has been said that a spellcasters strongest effect is stronger then a psionics strongest effect. How so? Both can easily kill a creature on a single saving throw, and the Psionics DCs will almost certainly be higher.
Several reasons. One is Gate. Another is Shapechange. A third is Mordenkainen's Disjunction. For the reasons that are not specific spells, there are a number of crippling 'deathtrap' combinations of spells that will leave a foe incapacitated and facing a bad saving throw round after round. There are also spells that combo incredibly well with other save or dies, including energy drain and enervation, both of which have marked advantages over mindwipe, the psion's only means of dealing negative levels. Summoning versatility (outside of Gate) is another; not only do the Binding spells offer a lot, but Polymorphing your Summoned Monsters means fighting alongside Giants with SR, elemental resists, DR, and spell-like abilities. Creature stacking is potent.
The biggest is that the wizard can have all the strongest effect spells and spell combinations in his spellbook. A psion will know a number of them, but not all. Not to say psions aren't versatile if they mean to be, but wizards are a different plane altogether.
Both have wish type powers. In fact, the psionic can do a lot of things that are out of a Spellcasters reach. Create there own plane.
A Genesis 9th level spell was printed outside of Core - one of the Completes, IIRC.
Switch Minds with a physically strong creature, both rendering the enemy ineffective while making themselves more powerful (granted this is telepath only).
I point you back to Polymorph Any Object. If it can be Mind Switched, it can be Dominated.
Deleting an enemies powers. Allowing themselves and party members to alter past skills, feats and power/spell choices.
Again, all you'll prove at this point is that the two are distinct classes with some overlap, but each with a lot of neat abilities that the other cannot pull off.
I think that’s enough for one post. To be continued.
Thank you for coming back, the effort you put into this argument is appreciated.
1. First off, you’re right. A wizard does have "a lot" of spells 6th level and up that go up to 20 dice of damage.
Good, lets see where we can get with this. Do you think a wizard is more or less powerful than a sorcerer in general? Can you honestly answer that you think a sorcerer is more powerful? Because a sorcerer, with all the damage dealing options of a wizard, has 8 more level 6+ spells per day at 20th, and you're trying to pass off that having 1 more level 6+ caliber effect than the wizard makes the psion overpowered.
But, your suggesting that a Wizard spends all of his 6th-9th level slots on damage spells?
No, that would be moronic, wizards are much better served by ignoring direct damage from pretty much level 7 on. There are much more effective ways for them to use their spell slots. I'm suggesting that a brain dead wizard played by a player with no tactical sense or understanding of a game plan beyond "I cast the spells that makes the people fall down!" is better at what you're complaining about than an optimized psion. I hope we're clear on this point.
The psionic will still be going when the wizards out of 6th level spells, and the wizards basically forfeiting his greatest strength. A Psionic needs only 2-3 powers to do the same thing, leaving his other powers known open for whatever he wishes. That’s not going into the fact that the Psionic will still have higher DCs and won't be nearly as hurt by energy resist or the fact the wizard will still be inferior to almost everyone, even the sorcerer in the damage area. In short, the psionic can do all that, do it better (better DCs and ignoring energy resist easily), do it longer (17 powers base vs 16 spells base,9th+8th+7th+6th) and still retain versatility.
Yes, brilliant deduction, brilliant argument. In a situation where stamina is irrelevant as your original principal clearly states, a wizard, who can equal a psion's best with his fourth most powerful effect is obviously much less powerful than a psion because he has to dig into the backbenchers one spell before the psion runs completely dry. Beautiful logic.
3. Do you really want to get into the "What one can do the other can't" contest concerning psionics?
Yes, I do want to do that. It’s the clearest, most concrete example of why psionics aren't broken: Powers do less than Spells, a lot less.
Oh, I'm sure with the extra books spellcasters have and Complete Psionic not realised yet, you'll win, but psionics can do some sick, sick things that spellcasters can't. Mind switch (one of the most munchkin abilities in the game)?
Magic Jar, PHB page 250, next?
Psychic Reformation (ALSO, one of the most munchkin abilities)?
You get 1 point for this, Psychic Reformation is a unique and hotly debated power, I'm not a big fan of it myself.
Empathic Transfer?
Low rent healing? You're serious? I'll summon monster VI a Bralani Eldarin and have it cast Cure Serious Wounds twice, I don't have to deal 5d10 to myself that way.
Schisism?
Schism < Quicken Power < Quicken Spell - let me explain, since so few people seem to understand this:
Schism is a terrible power. Its effect is the same as quicken spell (manifest two powers in one round). For one extra power the cost is very similar power point wise, 6 for quicken 7 for schism. The problem is schism takes a standard action to set up, meaning you waste a round of manifesting in order to get. Second problem, powers manifested with schism are worse than quickened powers, as they have less range, less duration, less chance to penetrate power or spell resistance, and don't have more augment options since the -6 ML lines up with the 6 power points for quicken power. Schism is only beneficial for power point economizing in protracted combats, but that’s a terrible use for it since the purpose of the power is to deploy powers quickly at the cost of power points and make combats shorter. It fails in this because it wastes the round you spend manifesting it, leaving you with 0 powers deployed rather than the two you would have used with quicken power. It’s not until round 4 when schism catches up with 1 quickening for powers deployed.
Quicken Spell is better than quicken power because of psionic focus, since it costs you at least a move action to use quicken power more than once in a combat, and 4 or more feats if you want to use it efficiently (Quicken Power, Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Meditation, possibly Expanded Knowledge [Hustle]). Quicken spell is marginally less efficient than quicken power, capping you at effects 4 levels lower than max rather than 3 below max for a psion (from the 6 points you must pay).
Fission?
If a wizard wants a second spellcaster around, he can planar bind an outsider from the MM, they have a boat load of SLAs, the good ones tend to have high level cleric casting, and best of all, they don't eat the wizard's spell slots when they cast, unlike the way your fission clone saps your power points when he manifests.
Fusion?
Why do people think this is powerful? It lets you spend power points and XP so that two party members can only get one set of actions per round. In order to actually make it worthwhile to manifest this power, you must intentionally gimp at least two characters at all times when it is not in effect, by building them to mesh in a way that can't be done just by having two characters work as a team. Terrible Power.
Le’ts go a little lower level, how about Vigor?
False Life for a direct comparison, Mirror Image, or you can take the same tactic I'm about to use to make Mental Barrier look terrible.
Mental Barrier?
Cast Resilient Sphere on yourself. Mental Barrier at most +7 AC for 3 rounds. Resilient Sphere, can't be attacked for 20 minutes, which is the better deal here?
How about all those powers that lets you leech power points from other psionic creatures?
Check the spell section in the XPH for psychic turmoil and greater psychic turmoil, actually, GPT can outdo vigor at the temporary hit point game in the right circumstances.
That’s just the tip of the iceberg. I may be jumping the gun a bit, but in the "I can do things you can't" area, I'm going with psionics, if not in volume, then in sheer effect. And complete psionic still isn't here yet....
You would be foolish to go with psionics on this point, answer the following:
What is the psionic equivalent to:
Enervation
Black Tentacles
Cloudkill
Forcecage
Meteor Swarm
Anything from the school of illusion
Anything from the school of necromancy
Bigby's Hand Spells
Power Word Spells
Gate
Summoning beyond one dimensional constructs that are less competent fighters than the animals on the summon nature's ally list
Planar Binding/Planar Ally
Ray of Enfeeblement
Anything from the Spell Compendium including such wonderful numbers as:
Summon Undead spells
Wraithstrike
Heroics
Quick Potion
Ray Deflection
Bloodstar
Dragon Breath
(Hint: at this point I'm closing my eyes and randomly point at a spell name on the page and putting it down)
Prismatic Ray
Spell Matrix (any of them)
Ray of Entropy
Sword of Darkness
I suppose that'll do for now, though I haven't touched the SC's 8th and 9th level spells yet.
Your fourth point is reasonably valid, psions can make a decent trouble shooter. They have to go farther out of their way than a wizard does, and a wizard tends to do it better, as they don't have to spend XP to make use of an exotic ability that happened to come up. It doesn't make psions overpowered that they can actually fill a troubleshooting roll with reasonable proficiency.
5. It has been said that a spellcasters strongest effect is stronger then a psionics strongest effect. How so? Both can easily kill a creature on a single saving throw, and the Psionics DCs will almost certainly be higher.
Incorrect. Check your powers again. Psionic save or dies don't scale DC when you augment. Check Psychic Crush, Recall Death, and Decerebrate if you don't believe me. This is a common misconception, the psionic damage dealing powers, and dominate scale with DC when they augment, not a lot of other things do.
Both have wish type powers. In fact, the psionic can do a lot of things that are out of a Spellcasters reach. Create there own plane.
There is a divine genesis in the SRD, it’s more powerful than the psionic one, surprise surprise.
Switch Minds with a physically strong creature, both rendering the enemy ineffective while making themselves more powerful (granted this is telepath only).
Magic Jar again.
I think that’s enough for one post. To be continued.
Looking forward to it.
1. First off, you’re right. A wizard does have "a lot" of spells 6th level and up that go up to 20 dice of damage. But, your suggesting that a Wizard spends all of his 6th-9th level slots on damage spells?
2. Your comment about 6th level spells have made me realize something. an expansion on my point of the weakness of auto scaling. Spellcasters don't really auto scale at all. As you (objulen and others) pointed out for me, a spellcaster wanting to get past the caps of his lower level spells must prepare higher level spells, effectively, "Paying more" just as the psionic does. The spellcaster doesn't really autoscale at all, a tleast to the extent you claim. Just like the psionic, he’s gotta pay for what he gets, and at the higher levels, to make any real impact in a combat, he’s gotta pay just as much as the psionic.
Casters and manifesters pay the same cost in (not really) different ways. Manifesters pay extra PP as if they were manifesting a higher level power and Casters expend higher level spell slots. The feats otherwise work exactly the same.
3. Do you really want to get into the "What one can do the other can't" contest concerning psionics? Oh, I'm sure with the extra books spellcasters have and Complete Psionic not realised yet, you'll win, but psionics can do some sick, sick things that spellcasters can't. Mind switch (one of the most munchkin abilities in the game)? Psychic Reformation (ALSO, one of the most munchkin abilities)? Empathic Transfer? Schisism? Fission? Fusion? Le’ts go a little lower level, how about Vigor? Mental Barrier? How about all those powers that lets you leech power points from other psionic creatures? That’s just the tip of the iceberg. I may be jumping the gun a bit, but in the "I can do things you can't" area, I'm going with psionics, if not in volume, then in sheer effect. And complete psionic still isn't here yet....
Both can do things the other one can't.
4. With the above point in mind, I looked at the psionic power list. A lot of people say Psions are forced into a discipline. While that is true, I noticed that most staples of each discipline is available to all psions sooner or later. All psions can take Divination, Greater Teleport, Energy (Ray/Push/etc), and most of the staples of spellcasters are available to all psions in one way or another(identify, knock, tongues, true seeing, plane shift) with VERY few exceptions. With 36 powers and the intense flexibility of their offensive powers, psions look the fair trouble shooter. And if they need to, they can do what wizards do anyway. Buy/make a bunch of Power Stones of problem solving powers. Plus, if the situation is serious enough to spend XP on it, they can just Revise Reality or Reformat themselves with the appropriate powers..
Now you're just ignoring the fine piece of logic that DisposableHero_ gave you.
Both can easily kill a creature on a single saving throw, and the Psionics DCs will almost certainly be higher.
Both DCs will be about the same. You have never actually played a psionic character, have you?
1) You're saying that they need to prepare the spells in higher slots to get the benefits of auto scaling, that isn't the case. They get more spells and abilities that scale, in terms of duration, damage, range, etc. with their caster level. Psionics does not get this lovely advantage they instead play the game of 'Pump It Up' by blowing through more power points.
2) Mind swap is a powerful ability, but you also need to remember that each of these super powers are high leveled and are also limited specifically to specialists. What this means is that I might be able to Nova but can't body swap or vice-versa.
3) The DCs are actually usually higher for the wizards, again unless the psionicist pumps in more power points. It's sort of like this, I have a water cannon and so do you. Your water cannon has a stable amount of capacity, it can churn out X amount of water and you have a big set of levers you can use to control the flow.
My water cannon is a lot less refined, I just scream for more power and I get it, but what happens often is that while I might blast someone into next week once I can't do anything else after that until the pressure builds up again. Also, my options are limited and I have finite limits to how much I can amp my cannon.
So while a Sorcerer would need to know both Charm person and Charm monster, a Psion only need know Psionic Charm, or if he wants to summon creatures he only needs to know create astral construct while a wizard or sorcerer needs to know summon monster 1 thru 9. Knowing one power versus knowing nine spells is a good example that something’s wrong.
So while a Sorcerer would need to know both Charm person and Charm monster, a Psion only need know Psionic Charm, or if he wants to summon creatures he only needs to know create astral construct while a wizard or sorcerer needs to know summon monster 1 thru 9. Knowing one power versus knowing nine spells is a good example that something’s wrong.
With the sorcerer yes. Psions are spontaneous casters done right, their powers overlap much less and remain useful throughout the career of the psion for the most part, they have actual in depth control of their "spontaneous casting" whereas a sorcerer is still confined a spell slot system that was designed to govern prepared casters. Compared to a wizard, who equally enjoys a system tailored specifically to his form of casting, psions aren't all that powerful, as their natural advantages over the sorcerer don't exist. A wizard cares much less for the need to learn all the spells in a chain (or the 3 or 4 he might use) as his spells known are not hard limited the way a sorcerer's spells and psion's powers are.
I'd fully endorse a houserule that allowed a sorcerer to take summon monster as a spell known and have the monsters he could summon be dependant on the spell level he used to cast it, just like I'd be inclined to allow the amalgamation of other spell chains because the sorcerer shouldn't be restricted by them in the way he is.
To put it simply, the sorcerer is a spontaneous caster shoe-horned into a prepared casting system, it is needlessly constrained in some regards because of that system. The reverse actually happened with psionics. The Erudite, when originally printed in dragon 319 was heavily overpowered, because it was a prepared style caster empowered by the spontaneous nature of psionics.
I wonder how many people here have tried play testing Psion’s and wizards or sorcerers to see what results the come up with. Our group recently tried this and the Psion’s consistently came out on top just about every time with equal die rolls. I personally think it's the powers and the fact that many of them have heighten, extend, and other augmentation feats built into the actual power rather than requiring a feat, freeing the Psion’s up to take more feats than other caster types. Not to mention that many psionic powers actually cover the lesser, standard, and greater versions of a spell.
The problem with anecdotal evidence like this is that for every poster I have seen on the boards who has had similar experiences to you, I have read posts by an equal number who have found their psion consistently outperformed by the other casters in the party. And of all the "overpowered psion" accounts, when questions were asked, very many turned out to be problems with the playstyle or rules misunderstandings rather than any problems with psionics. So we can't depend on personal accounts - we need to reason out why a psion or any other class would be overpowered or underpowered, and examine the nature of the class.
So while a Sorcerer would need to know both Charm person and Charm monster, a Psion only need know Psionic Charm, or if he wants to summon creatures he only needs to know create astral construct while a wizard or sorcerer needs to know summon monster 1 thru 9. Knowing one power versus knowing nine spells is a good example that something’s wrong.
Yeah, something's wrong with the sorcerer who is the victim of spell organization. Given that spells offer more than powers, less mileage out of spell knowledge isn't inherently unbalanced.
Sure, the psion may beat the wizard in raw damage in a single round if you have a psion nova build and a wizard non-nova build, but the wizard can do it better, longer, and with more impressive results.
The bomb is the psion, can do one (small number of) big blast and then it's pretty much done.
The rocket launcher is the mage, a fair amount of oomph, reusable over a period and also has other weapons and tools as well.
The Machine gun is the Warlock, can blast forever but has a limited utility.
The psion can do a lot, but their overall list of powers known is fairly small, that and the fact that they will almost always run out of ammo before the main casters does tend to be an issue in game. Much of it is also the level of inclusion, when there is psionics they will face psionic foes, they will deal with psionic enemies, they will deal with unique challenges.
The whole point of the "warlock principle" is that it shows that comparing power points of a psion to "converted" power points of spells is a dumb idea. The entire idea is that the wizard or the sorcerer will never cast all of those spells. The psion WILL use all of his power points, because he has no incentive to use anything but maxed level powers, and because he can use the balance to heal when the day ends. When you do power point to "converted" power point of spell comparisons, you're comparing a bunch of resources that will be used to a bunch of resources that will not.
If a wizard wants a second spellcaster around, he can planar bind an outsider from the MM, they have a boat load of SLAs, the good ones tend to have high level cleric casting, and best of all, they don't eat the wizard's spell slots when they cast, unlike the way your fission clone saps your power points when he manifests.
Screw that Hero, Wizard should just cast simulacrum on himself: now he has same effect as Fission: extra caster, but he is still full manifestor.
And even better: no duration! The Sim stays all his life till killed.
I mean, best of all, all arcane casters can get it.
Why do people think this is powerful? It lets you spend power points and XP so that two party members can only get one set of actions per round. In order to actually make it worthwhile to manifest this power, you must intentionally gimp at least two characters at all times when it is not in effect, by building them to mesh in a way that can't be done just by having two characters work as a team. Terrible Power.
It can be useful if one guy has loads of pp like a Psion and has good bab like a fighter: Kinda mimics Divine Power, though it makes you lose a party member.
Mostly a niche power, only sometimes useful.
False Life for a direct comparison, Mirror Image, or you can take the same tactic I'm about to use to make Mental Barrier look terrible.
Why don't wizard research higher level versions of False Life?
Breetai:
I wonder how many people here have tried play testing Psion’s and wizards or sorcerers to see what results the come up with. Our group recently tried this and the Psion’s consistently came out on top just about every time with equal die rolls. I personally think it's the powers and the fact that many of them have heighten, extend, and other augmentation feats built into the actual power rather than requiring a feat, freeing the Psion’s up to take more feats than other caster types. Not to mention that many psionic powers actually cover the lesser, standard, and greater versions of a spell.
False, some powers have heighten, some have extend, some just suck (I'm looking at you Psionic Blast!), and some can't be augmented in any meaningful way.
Don't stereotype.
So while a Sorcerer would need to know both Charm person and Charm monster, a Psion only need know Psionic Charm, or if he wants to summon creatures he only needs to know create astral construct while a wizard or sorcerer needs to know summon monster 1 thru 9. Knowing one power versus knowing nine spells is a good example that something’s wrong.
Please, Summon Monster and Nature's Ally can summon 1d4+1 lower type if not 1d3. Astral only creates 1 each time you manifest it. Trust me, summons are better. Summons can later around 5-6th level spell, cast spell-like abilities. Giving you an extra caster. ACs are just brutes.
I wonder how many people here have tried play testing Psion’s and wizards or sorcerers to see what results the come up with. Our group recently tried this and the Psion’s consistently came out on top just about every time with equal die rolls. I personally think it's the powers and the fact that many of them have heighten, extend, and other augmentation feats built into the actual power rather than requiring a feat, freeing the Psion’s up to take more feats than other caster types. Not to mention that many psionic powers actually cover the lesser, standard, and greater versions of a spell.
Just out of curiosity, could you give the details of the characters you created to perform this test?
So while a Sorcerer would need to know both Charm person and Charm monster, a Psion only need know Psionic Charm, or if he wants to summon creatures he only needs to know create astral construct while a wizard or sorcerer needs to know summon monster 1 thru 9. Knowing one power versus knowing nine spells is a good example that something’s wrong.
The thing is, they don't need to know all of the spells in a series, as the later spells make the previous spells somewhat obsolete. The sorcerer you mentioned would likely want to get rid of Charm Person once he gets a hold of Charm Monster, simply because no longer has a need for the other spell. Same with the Summon Monster spells.
So while a Sorcerer would need to know both Charm person and Charm monster, a Psion only need know Psionic Charm, or if he wants to summon creatures he only needs to know create astral construct while a wizard or sorcerer needs to know summon monster 1 thru 9. Knowing one power versus knowing nine spells is a good example that something’s wrong.
False. Charm Monster works on any living thing not immune to mind-affecting spells/powers, just like Psionic Charm does (given enough augmentation), so you just need to know one spell in the end. The sorcerer dumps Charm Person once he gets Charm Monster anyway. Sure, you use a higher level spell slot, but so does the psion: he pays more power points to affect anything.
As for summons, you're perfectly fine with using Summon Monster IX. You can summon anything from any summon list (from 1st through 9th) with it. Once more, a sorcerer can just swap his lower level summon spells as they become redundant. If you want to keep lower level summons as to not have to use 9th level spell slots, sure you can do that. With it, you can do just as much as (if not more than) a psion using augmented Astral Construct powers.
Granted, you'll use higher level spells known than the psion will, which is an advantage of his. Still, you don't have as wide a power list to choose from as a wizard/sorcerer does. This has been addressed fairly well earlier, so I'll not repeat it.
Also, you choose the absolutely worst possible example for comparing Psions to Sorcerers, Summon Monster. Spontaneous casters have to bite the bullet compared to everyone else when it comes to any spell line that goes 1 - 9, since you only want at most the best three at any specific point in time. Compare Sorcerer DD vs. Psion DD and Sorcerers clearly come out ahead with spells like Fireball, Horrid Wilting, Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold, and Meteor Storm, particularly with the feat that allows you to change the elemental type, due to free scaling.
Further, it ignores the fact that while Psionic characters do get the effects of Heighten Spell built into certain powers for free, it ignores the fact that Psions can only use with powers that specifically allow it; it also neglects the fact that Psionic characters must take several feats to use Metapsionic feats with anywhere near the freedom of arcane casters. While Wizards are using their free bonus feat every 5 levels for whatever Metamagic or Item Creation feat they please, Psions who want to use Metapsionics are forced to pick a specific selection of feats to maximize the utility of Psionic Focus.
In the end, Wizards and Psions are pretty even, depending on the situation. When tossed into a blind situation, the Psion will come out ahead, as will any character who can spontaneously use their class abilities. On the other hand, when the wizard can optimize her/his spell selection from a vast array of spells for the encounters, he/she will win. The Wizard also eclipses Psions in magical item creation, due to the fact that Psions can not access all psionic powers the same way that a wizard can access all arcane spells.
It's obvious that my vehicle is superior to yours.
Premise: My Huffy bicycle, Kawasaki motorcycle, Hummer and McClaren F1 are much better than the Honda Civic or Honda S2000.
Proof: The bicycle uses less gas.
The motorcycle has better acceleration.
The Hummer has more off-road utility.
The F1 has a higher top speed.
Ergo, Honda Civics and S2000's are extremely gimped and the other vehicles are overpowered.
Now let's replace the vehicles with game terms.
Premise: Psionics are superior.
Proof:
The Telepath (mind-affecting) is better at his speciality Dominate.
The Wilder can surge for higher effective level.
The Kineticist (evoker) has a better nuke.
The Shaper (summoner) is far better at summoning than a generalist arcanist. -this last one is patently false the arcane summonings are just as good if not better.
Ergo, psionics are superior than a generalist wizard or sorcerer.
Now let's use the exact same argument and prove that wizards are more powerful than wizards.
Premise: Wizards are more powerful than wizards.
Proof:
An evoker is better at nuking than a diviner.
An enchanter is better a mind-affecting spells than a generalist.
A diviner is better at divination than a evoker.
A conjurer is better at summoning than an enchanter.
Ergo, Wizards are more powerful than wizards because when they specialize, they are superior in their area of focus than a generalist or a specialist with a different focus.
As for using in game comparisons, an argument can be made that they are highly subjective. I can (and have) made a bard the party's worst nightmare. What? How can a single class A be far superior to an entire party of equal level? Class A must be broken! By association, Class B, C and D are also broken!
Based upon game experience I would be forced to ban Clerics, Druids, Wizards and Sorcerers. Possibly use the Spirit Shaman instead of Clerics or Druids. And something equivalent to replace Wizards or Sorcerers.
I have never had an problem with Psionics being overpowered in my 3.0 or 3.5 game. Were there broken combos? Yes. Every class has them, so this doesn't make psionics more powerful. I have had ignorant players attempt to cheat or bypass the rules. Does that make psionics overpowered?
Anyway, just my 2 coppers. In the end, it is your game. If you find that certain aspects do not add enjoyment or take fun away from others, then you are free to Rule 0 as you see fit.
1) They are, in many respects, extremely anecdotal.
2) Classes balance vis a vis each other need not be equal in all cases for them to be balanced. For example, barbarians beat the living hell out of rogues because they are faster and hard to sneak attack. It does not follow that barbarians are a stronger class all around, but merely that they are particularly efficient at killing rogues. Against a caster of almost any kind I would prefer the rogue to the barbarian, especially at high level.
3) The power variance in character design is high. Almost any class can be gimped by poor spell, power, feat, and PrC choices (and some have the capacity to approach uselessness if choices are poorly made...a druid with crappy feats is ok, a fighter with crappy feats is just a meat shield in every way worse than a decent summon). In practice there ought to be all sorts of situations where poorly designed characters lose and well designed characters win without that saying anything at all about the relative power of those classes.
4) Head to head fights between casters usually end so quickly that initiative is determinant or one or both characters flee.
There are good choices available for both, and it clearly is not the case that one or the other is so overpowering that one class becomes undesirable. There are neat tricks for both characters, spells and powers that can be used in all manner of ways. There are archetypes much simpler to create effectively in either system. A shape changing psion is much harder to play if one actually desires to regularly change shape. A summoning wizard is in almost every respect better than a psion summoner (even with the Constructor class)...at high level an arcane summon can cast useful spells and actually beat DR in some cases...that just is not the case for a psionic summoner. I think a toe-to-toe fighter works better as a psion, empathic feedback is nice (and with constructor you can summon long duration creatures to serve as mounts and take damage for you) and mind switch true can be exceptionally powerful if you find the right form (although XP cost and dangers associated with the power are pretty rough).
Psionics aren't any more powerful than arcane or divine magic mostly because of the following:
1) Limited list of powers known that can't be pushed any further
2) Limit on how many power points that can be channeled in period, meaning I can maximize or I can throw in more dice, or I can do something else but I can't do all of it.
3) Tied to #2, no free scaling, which means that you have to budget power points heavily
4) Specialization required, you'll always lose access to some stuff and the really awesome stuff is specialist only.
5) Requirement of Psionic focus to do the really awesome stuff, have to keep regaining it.
6) Psionics are like a giant cannon, they can do a couple of things really well, and they are good is short quick fights, but they suffer in long battles.
The damage illustration is particularly useful, especially when you realize that a Sorcerer would have way more spells a day, especially with Spellcasting Prodigy, which Psions don't get, and totally blast a Psion damage-wise out of the water.
Last but not least, "The Warlock Principle" is a load of crap which is superseded by the "D&D Day." Up by 6 and sleeping by 11. The Warlock has a neat "unlimited" power, which is limited as soon as the Party mage or band-aid is running low.
"Hey, let’s take a nap in a hostile cavern! I'm about tapped."
The Warlock: "WTH?! It's 10:30 in the morning!"
I wonder how many people here have tried play testing Psion’s and wizards or sorcerers to see what results the come up with.
I think it's safe to say that the majority of the people refuting the psionics as overpowered have actually played manifesters.
Our group recently tried this and the Psion’s consistently came out on top just about every time with equal die rolls. I personally think it's the powers and the fact that many of them have heighten, extend, and other augmentation feats built into the actual power rather than requiring a feat, freeing the Psion’s up to take more feats than other caster types. Not to mention that many psionic powers actually cover the lesser, standard, and greater versions of a spell.
So while a Sorcerer would need to know both Charm person and Charm monster, a Psion only need know Psionic Charm,
Of course, you're not taking into consideration that a sorcerer can swap out old spells at 4th (and every even level thereafter). So, at 8th-level, a sorcerer could pick up charm monster and replace charm person with a spell that isn't replicated by a better, higher-level, version. Thus recycling, not losing, resources.
Wizards, on the other hand, don't have a limited access to spells--so it doesn't hurt them to pick up the higher-level spell.
or if he wants to summon creatures he only needs to know create astral construct while a wizard or sorcerer needs to know summon monster 1 thru 9.
No. Again, a sorcerer can swap out the lower-level spells to stay competitive, and wizards don't lose resources by learning more spells.
Knowing one power versus knowing nine spells is a good example that something’s wrong.
Yes, but it's not in the way you think. Creating higher-level versions of the same spell/power is bad game design. It only pads out the spell/power list without actually adding anything to it.
Psionic characters pay additional resources (effectively higher-level spell slots) to get the higher-level effects. So, while psionic charm or astral construct may be "1st-level powers," once you augment them you are effectively using higher-level spell slots. Additionally, as has been pointed out many time previously, for a manifesters to replicate the scaling effects that casters get for free, there have to use effectively higher-level spell slots.
Take a look at charm monster. Now, take a look at psionic charm.
Notice that in order to replicate the effect of charm monster (not restricted by creature type; duration 1 day/level), you must spend 1 (base power) + 4 (to affect the additional creature types) + 4 (to give a 1 day/level duration), for a total of 9 power points--the equivalent of a 5th-level power (requiring more resources than the equivalent 4th-level spell). The only upside here, is that this augmented version of psionic charm has a 15 DC (but since we're using 5th-level power resources, it had better).
However, the psion (specifically, a telepath) can't even do this until 9th-level (what with the cap on how much juice [power points] a manifester can pump into their powers). The exceptions being: 1) You have the Overchannel feat, then you could do it a 8th-level (while taking 1d8 points of damage). 2) You have both Overchannel and Talented (that's two feats), you could manifest this at 8th-level and take no damage (as could a wizard without the two feats).
So, by using the equivalent of a 5th-level spell slot and having a 2 specific feats, the specialist telepath can cast the equivalent of charm monster (a 4th-level spell) at the same level (8th) as a non-specialist wizard using only a 4th-level spell slot.
OMGWTHBBQ!!!111 That's so overpowered.
If anything, this topic only proves how poorly designed spell-casting classes are with their spell slots and auto-scaling. Not to mention that casters are the ones that are prone to be broken.
You're not expected to be having four encounters of equal CR, all of which can be handled with the same sort of nova, in one day, and then a rest. The idea that a psion can get through a day by going nova ten or so times is ridiculous. There will be other calls for powers, powers which aren't necessarily combat at all, and sometimes powers that despite not being combat still require augmentation to continue being effective. It almost seems as if those arguing for psionics being overpowered are doing so under the assumption that a wizards 1st to 5th level spells are somehow wasted and unnecessary. You're playing a strange game if this is the case – there's always a call for casting spells like true strike, and with the free scaling of spells those low level spells matter too, and often just as much as the higher level spells.
In personal experience, a psion's ability to nova is not greater than a wizard's. A psion's ability to conserve power points throughout the day is usually sub-optimal (psychic warriors with a specialised build, focusing only on powers that are low level and don't need augmenting, are masters in this field, I'll admit) compared to a wizard. A psion's ability to perform in all manner of circumstances is limited compared to a wizard. I really don't see the issue here.
And hey, if a 20th level psion is in a big combat situation, guess what? The vast majority of his options involve burning 20 power points, on something, because he'll be needing to augment it up. Essentially, you play a high level psion and you feel like your only option is to burn more-expensive-than-9th-level-slots over and over. Those wizards are laughing at you - they can cast anything of 6th level up and still get great effect. Hell, they can cast a 1st-level spell like true strike on an ally and be absolutely devastating.
And if you really want to go nova, and go full throttle - everything you can find, no matter how broken, using temporal acceleration, synchronicity, linked power, all of it.
...Good luck when your delayed energy missiles turn out to be manifesting an energy your opponent is immune to. You just, in one round, turned yourself into a 20th level commoner. The wonderful power of psionic novas.
I wonder how many people here have tried play testing Psion’s and wizards or sorcerers to see what results the come up with. Our group recently tried this and the Psion’s consistently came out on top just about every time with equal die rolls. I personally think it's the powers and the fact that many of them have heighten, extend, and other augmentation feats built into the actual power rather than requiring a feat, freeing the Psion’s up to take more feats than other caster types. Not to mention that many psionic powers actually cover the lesser, standard, and greater versions of a spell.
So while a Sorcerer would need to know both Charm person and Charm monster, a Psion only need know Psionic Charm, or if he wants to summon creatures he only needs to know create astral construct while a wizard or sorcerer needs to know summon monster 1 thru 9. Knowing one power versus knowing nine spells is a good example that something’s wrong.
What is wrong with a psion never being able to know the mass charm monster equivalent? What's wrong with a sorcerer learning charm person, then charm monster and switching out charm person for another spell? What's wrong with a wizard learning every summon spell he feels like as long as he has some gold, or a sorcerer learning the most powerful one and switching out the ones he learned earlier? Versatility still falls to the arcane spellcasters. I fail to see your point.
So while a Sorcerer would need to know both Charm person and Charm monster, a Psion only need know Psionic Charm, or if he wants to summon creatures he only needs to know create astral construct while a wizard or sorcerer needs to know summon monster 1 thru 9. Knowing one power versus knowing nine spells is a good example that something’s wrong.
It’s true that some of the Psion's powers are more flexible, but Psions are also limited by their disciplines. Psionic Charm is a Telepath only Power and Astral Construct is a Shaper only power. Sure the Psion of another Discipline could use Feats to get them, but Psionics is already Feat intensive, particularly if you use powers that require you to expend Focus.
How many Wizards would rather spend a Feat to get access to a group of spells rather than buy some scrolls and scribe them into their spell book?
I wonder how many people here have tried play testing Psion’s and wizards or sorcerers to see what results the come up with. Our group recently tried this and the Psion’s consistently came out on top just about every time with equal die rolls. I personally think it's the powers and the fact that many of them have heighten, extend, and other augmentation feats built into the actual power rather than requiring a feat, freeing the Psion’s up to take more feats than other caster types. Not to mention that many psionic powers actually cover the lesser, standard, and greater versions of a spell.
So while a Sorcerer would need to know both Charm person and Charm monster, a Psion only need know Psionic Charm, or if he wants to summon creatures he only needs to know create astral construct while a wizard or sorcerer needs to know summon monster 1 thru 9. Knowing one power versus knowing nine spells is a good example that something’s wrong.
Sorcerers are generally counted as weak in the are of spells known because of that issue. But let us compare
Sorc- 43 Spells known
Psion- 36 powers known
Favored Soul- 60! Spells known
Shugenja- 52 Spells known
Shadowcaster - 20 Mysteries known
Truenamer- 29 Utterances known
Of Course, you can't just look at Known magic, you have to look at what spells they get.
Psions can't gate, MDJ, Weird
Imagine telling wizards that they have to specialize, but instead of giving up two other schools, they have to give up the best spells from other schools.
Only an evoker could get fireball and lighting bold.
Only an enchanter could get charm and dominate.
Only a Necromancer could raise undead.
Only Abjurer could get MDJ.
Only a Conjurer could teleport or summon, but not both.
How many wizards would throw a fit? All of them. All psions are limited by there Discipline. A psion can't everything a wizard can do. A wizard could just as Easily summon a monster, dominate, teleport, shapechange, scry, or blast the heck out of something. A psion can only do one of the following, unless they spend a feat.
It was actually a source of friction within the group; they felt psionics was stealing the show, and everyone else was just the pit crew for the creepy little blue goblin (or dromite, or whatever).
At the same time, the flexibility that psionics offer is what made playing them so enjoyable. There are no spell slots or arbitrary damage caps; if I needed to pick off one enemy in a crowd, my Energy Ray would deal just as much damage as an Energy Ball (and with no save, to boot). If I needed to Charm an outsider, I'd just drop a few more points into the power and watch the DC and duration skyrocket with the utility. And when the chips were down, I always had an Astral Construct to mop up the resistance.
I want that kind of versatility when I play every character; that's why Fighters aren't limited to three Trip attempts per day. But regardless, I think psionics are just as powerful now as they were in 2nd edition; they are just a little more subtle about it.
The psion WILL use all of his power points, because he has no incentive to use anything but maxed level powers, and because he can use the balance to heal when the day ends.
This is simply incorrect if your DM knows how to challenge a party at all. I recommend you to DH's nova thread, which he's linked earlier here, and can also be found in his signature.
When you do power point to "converted" power point of spell comparisons, you're comparing a bunch of resources that will be used to a bunch of resources that will not.
Correction: you're comparing a bunch of resources that will need to be used to a bunch of resources that may not.
The base point is that in a day, your looking at around 20 rounds of combat. That means you have 20 chances to cast spells. The Psion, who has the ability to condense all of his power into those rounds has an advantage over a regular spellcaster. In fact, this makes him, hands down, the best COMBAT caster in the game, and Combat is probably around 80% of the game. Disposable Hero tried to dispute this, but what he did was show that using ALL of his slots, a wizard can do more damage then a psion. I'd have granted him that. But he’s not gonna have the Rounds of Combat to be able to CAST them all. THAT’S the basis of Impact, that the opportunities to cast is superior to the number of times per day and it’s something that the PP system gives in spades. The "Drawback", that you will run out of stamina, well, I think I tore THAT drawback apart pretty well in my article.
But let me put it another way just in case. The PP system and augmentation makes it so every PP you spend is probably gonna have the same Impact on combat(randomness of the die not withstanding), unlike the wizards spell slots, which have diminishing returns. The extra stamina means nothing if you don't have the chance to use it. This isn't a problem that psion has and as to stamina, again, the psion has just as much power as a wizard or sorcerer or another spellcaster, he can just expel it faster.
I’ve looked and no one has actually disputed this. Disposable Hero tried admirably, but I think he misunderstood the theory of Impact. If he listed the number of rounds it would take for the wizard to do all that damage against the psion, my point is made clear. As for the "versatility" point, it is a dangerous thing to stand on. The wizard doesn't have THAT much versatility on a psion and the versatility of a wizard is largely unneeded compared to the combat power a psion. The "I can do things you can't" argument is just gonna lead in circles, but my base point is one that has not been refuted, and I don't believe CAN be refuted.
Let’s take this comparison to the top and see what it looks like at 20th.
Psion's Option
Empowered Energy Power - 27d6, can be done 22 times per day with 3 points left for a 3d6 energy ray
Grand Total: 597d6 - average 2089.5 damage
The wizard can cast non-0th spells 53 times, to match a psion must spend no more than 8.35 points per power, meaning they don't even get 5th level effects if they want to keep up.
When is the last set of fights that you had that ran 53 rounds of combat between rests? In the last several games I have run and been in, most of the time it goes 20-30 combat rounds between rests.
Frankly I do not CARE if one class is stronger than the other but I do care if a class has a better "throughput". This can be either like the Psion by killing fast or the Warlock by lasting all day. Frankly I think the Psion is about 10-20% better than the Wizard but that is from my "hack, slay and haul it away" thinking.
False. Charm Monster works on any living thing not immune to mind-affecting spells/powers, just like Psionic Charm does (given enough augmentation), so you just need to know one spell in the end. The sorcerer dumps Charm Person once he gets Charm Monster anyway. Sure, you use a higher level spell slot, but so does the psion: he pays more power points to affect anything.
So you are saying that if I want to charm a Kobold I MUST use a 4th level slot while the Psion can put the 1st level equivalent into his manifestation?
As for summons, you're perfectly fine with using Summon Monster IX. You can summon anything from any summon list (from 1st through 9th) with it. Once more, a sorcerer can just swap his lower level summon spells as they become redundant. If you want to keep lower level summons as to not have to use 9th level spell slots, sure you can do that. With it, you can do just as much as (if not more than) a psion using augmented Astral Construct powers. Granted, you'll use higher level spells known than the psion will, which is an advantage of his. Still, you don't have as wide a power list to choose from as a wizard/sorcerer does. This has been addressed fairly well earlier, so I'll not repeat it.
Requiring the use of a 9th level spell in place of a 1st is just plain broken. I can't believe how many people are willing to wear blinders to the obvious simply because they like being munchkins.
I generally agree with what you are saying. I have long observed that only the top three levels of a spellcaster's picks for the day have any combat impact. The only REAL use that lower level spells have is utility/defensive buffs, and even these are limited in use.
For non-spontaneous caster quicken spell can easily change that at top lvl. A quickened magic missile does 5d4+5 to one target as a quick action. This comes down to roughly a 5d6 boost for a 5th level slot. A psion has trouble with focus and when doing that and it costs him, since he pays more quickening and scaling more points per bang.
If a group operates like this, the psion DOES come out to deal more damage (I'm not going to say more powerful, as some of my PC fighters' worst nightmares were enchanters with no combat spells) and can be more of an impact, since he can burn all his points in 4-5 encounters and then the group rests.
Personally, I don't agree with that style of playing. Wandering monsters should be found to increase the daily encounter rate, but as anyone who's read Order of the Stick knows, Random Encounters are tedious and a waste of everyone's time. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=145).
That's why I either plan out all my encounters and those are the only ones the party faces (Combat wise. Several non hostile NPCs still throw a monkey wrench into the party's plans) and/or make gratuitous use of traps.
In fact, this makes him, hands down, the best COMBAT caster in the game, and Combat is probably around 80% of the game.
And herein lies your problem, I believe. The wizard has numerous advantages over the psion in non-combat situations, as chances are he has a utility spell for nearly *any* situation, so long as he has time to prepare it. This is incredibly useful for dealing with environmental and story problems, as well as implementing huge complicated plans that are awesome in scope and effect.
However, you're playing in a game that's 80% combat. So none of those advantages ever see the light of day.
So, yes, the Wizard is the superior trouble shooter. But my point is, it will always, always, ALWAYS be more useful to have the combat power a psion brings to the table, a combat power the PP system grants him, especially since, once again, the psion and cleric working together can trouble shoot without missing a step. So, in the average party, the psion is strictly better then a wizard, sorcerer and most other casters.
There’s a lot of holes in a lot of the arguments, but I'm using this post to get back to what my article said, something that has yet to be disputed, even by Disposable Hero.
The base point is that in a day, your looking at around 20 rounds of combat. That means you have 20 chances to cast spells. The Psion, who has the ability to condense all of his power into those rounds has an advantage over a regular spellcaster. In fact, this makes him, hands down, the best COMBAT caster in the game, and Combat is probably around 80% of the game.
Your argument relies solely on combat, and while your games may be 80% combat, that is not necessarily true of anyone else's game. The DMG suggests a variation in encounters, and an encounter is anything that challenges the players.
Different Sorts of Encounters: A good adventure should provide a number of different experiences--attack, defense, problem-solving, roleplaying, and investigation. Make sure you vary the kinds of encounters the adventure provides (see Encounters, page 48).
You realise that in your examples, your "nova psion" is contributing solely to combat and nothing else (even though not all encounters are combat). Thus, your examples are unnecessarily skewed to reflect your unobjective opinion that the psion is somehow unbalanced.
Disposable Hero tried to dispute this, but what he did was show that using ALL of his slots, a wizard can do more damage then a psion. I'd have granted him that. But he’s not gonna have the Rounds of Combat to be able to CAST them all. THAT’S the basis of Impact, that the opportunities to cast is superior to the number of times per day and it’s something that the PP system gives in spades. The "Drawback", that you will run out of stamina, well, I think I tore THAT drawback apart pretty well in my article.
If this were Battletech, or some other combat strategy game, your argument would have more merit. As it stands, however, there is a lot more to D&D than just combat--hence there are a lot of non-combat spells and powers, non-combat encounters, etc.
But, if we must play this out, here:
Just going with what's in the SRD, a wizard (with the Maximize Spell feat) can do the following in a 20-round period:
- 4 maximized chain lightning (9th-level slot): 120 to one target, 60 to up to 20 secondary targets.
- 4 maximized cone of cold (8th-level slot): 90 damage in a 60-ft. cone.
- 4 delayed blast fireball (7th-level slot): 20d6 (average 70) damage in a 20-ft. radius spread.
- 4 chain lightning: 20d6 (ave. 70) damage to one target, and half that (ave. 35) to up to 20 secondary targets.
- 4 cone of cold (8th-level slot): 15d6 (ave. 52.5) damage in a 60-ft. cone.
So, a wizard's looking at dealing an average of 1,610 points of damage to one target and, depending on placement, 1,230 to up to 20 others.
Again, going with what's in the SRD, let's look at what the psion (either a kineticist or another type of psion with the Expanded Knowledge feat) can dish out in 20 rounds:
- Energy missile, energy cone, Tornado blast (depending on whether you want to affect 5 subjects, a 60-ft. cone, or a 40-ft. sphere) can all be augment, at 20th-level to deal 20d6 (ave. 70) or 23d6 (ave 80.5) if you have the overchannel feat (but take 5d8 points of damage, yourself), requiring more resources than casting a 9th-level spell.
So, the psion can look at dealing 1,400 to either 5 subjects, in a 60-ft. cone, or in a 40-ft. sphere.
Or, depending on whether he wants to take 100d8 (ave. 450) damage himself]), he can dish out a grand total of 1,610 damage. He can avoid taking this damage (if he's not using tornado blast) if he also as the Talented feat, which requires that our intrepid psion expend his psionic focus instead of taking damage (only works on 1st-3rd-level powers). By taking two more feats (Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Containment), our psion can have two psionic foci. Woot! Othwise, regaining his focus requires a DC 20 Concentration check that's a full-round action that provokes an AoO. Now, by adding yet another feat (Psionic Meditation), he can become refocused as a move action. So, if he has, not counting the possibility of Expanded Knowledge or Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Containment--which add little in our endurance game, at least 3 feats and can afford to sit in one place (not using his move actions for anything other than regaining his psionic focus) during the entire combat can he can possibly belt out 1,610 damage without taking that 450 damage himself.
What about Maximize Power, you ask? First, we have to knock 4d6 off all that damage potential, so we're at 16d6 maximised to 96 damage (or 19d6 maximised to 114 damage if we're going the overchanel route. But, using Maximize Power also requires or beleaguered psion to expend his focus (so he can't use is Talented feat to avoid taking that 20d8 damage). If, in the unlikely event that the psion can sit on his arse during the entire combat (allowing his refocusing), our psion can dish out 1,920 damage (or 2,280 damage if he takes 100d8 damage, himself).
However, all of that is entirely unlikely as the psion is going to need to be somewhat mobile. [i]If[i] the psion has Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Containment and he starts off with two foci and assuming he can refocus 10 more times (one every other round) during the course of twenty rounds, the psion using Maximize Power could possibly deal up to 1,702 damage. But that's taking into consideration a lot of ifs, ands, asumings, and could possiblies, and if we apply the same devil's advocacy to the wizard I'm certain we could find something at least as equally sick. At least we're not dealing with CoDzilla.
But let me put it another way just in case. The PP system and augmentation makes it so every PP you spend is probably gonna have the same Impact on combat(randomness of the die not withstanding), unlike the wizards spell slots, which have diminishing returns. The extra stamina means nothing if you don't have the chance to use it. This isn't a problem that psion has and as to stamina, again, the psion has just as much power as a wizard or sorcerer or another spellcaster, he can just expel it faster.
Still not taking into consideration the fact that arcane spells have a higher base damage and free autoscaling.
I’ve looked and no one has actually disputed this. Disposable Hero tried admirably, but I think he misunderstood the theory of Impact.
Your theory of Impact is skewed towards the assumption that D&D is a purely combat game (ie. spells and powers are used solely in combat), and that arcane spells and psionic powers have the same damage base (which is incorrect as psions have to pay greater resources for the same damage output that arcane casters gain for free, when the same damage output is even an option).
So you are saying that if I want to charm a Kobold I MUST use a 4th level slot while the Psion can put the 1st level equivalent into his manifestation?
No. Considering that a kobold is an humanoid, charm person, a 1st-level spell will suffice.
Now, if you meant an ogre (being a giant)... A wizard would have to use a 4th-level spell slot to cast charm monster. The psion, on the other hand, would have to expend at least 3 power points (the equivalent of a 2nd-level slot) to psionic charm the ogre. Mind you, the wizard's charm monster requires the wizard to be 7th-level, but has a base DC of 14 and last 1 day/level (7 days at minimum). The psion could charm the ogre earlier (at 3rd-level) with psionic charm, but with base DC of 12 and only lasting 1 hour/level (3 hours at minimum).
Yes, the psion can charm an ogre earlier, but not to the extent of charm monster. If the psion wanted to make his psionic charm last as long as charm monster (that is, 1 day per level), he'd have to expend an additional 4 power points--for a total of 7 (the equivalent of a 4th-level spell slot), increasing the psion's required level to be 7th-level, the power's DC to 14 and the duration to 1 day/level (for a minimum of 7 days).
So, if a psion uses the equivalent of a 4th-level spell slot to manifest a "1st-level" power, he has the effect of casting a 4th-level spell?
OMGWTFBBQ!1!1 That's sooo overpowered... You can't use the equivalent of a 4th-level spell slot to cast the equivalent of a 4th-level spell!! What are you thinking, Mr. Psion?
...
Now, if you meant an tiefling (being an outsider)... A wizard would, again, use a 4th-level spell slot to cast charm monster. The psion, on the other hand, would have to expend at least 5 power points (the equivalent of a 3rd-level slot) to psionic charm the tiefling. Again, the wizard's charm monster requires the wizard to be 7th-level, but has a base DC of 14 and last 1 day/level (7 days at minimum). The psion could charm the tiefling earlier (at 5th-level) with psionic charm, but with base DC of 13 and only lasting 1 hour/level (5 hours at minimum).
Again, manifestation?
No. Considering that a kobold is an humanoid, charm person, a 1st-level spell will suffice.
Now, if you meant an ogre (being a giant)... A wizard would have to use a 4th-level spell slot to cast charm monster. The psion, on the other hand, would have to expend at least 3 power points (the equivalent of a 2nd-level slot) to psionic charm the ogre. Mind you, the wizard's charm monster requires the wizard to be 7th-level, but has a base DC of 14 and last 1 day/level (7 days at minimum). The psion could charm the ogre earlier (at 3rd-level) with psionic charm, but with base DC of 12 and only lasting 1 hour/level (3 hours at minimum).
Yes, the psion can charm an tiefling earlier, but not to the extent of charm monster. If the psion wanted to make his psionic charm last as long as charm monster (that is, 1 day per level), he'd have to expend an additional 4 power points--for a total of 9 (the equivalent of a 5th-level spell slot), increasing the psion's required level to be 9th-level, the power's DC to 15 and the duration to 1 day/level (for a minimum of 9 days).
Hmm, so in order to manifest a version of the power that has a comparable effect and duration to its arcane counterpart, the psion has to be two levels higher than the wizard? Wow, that psion sure is overpowered!! (Assuming that psion is a few levels higher than the wizard.)
A psionic power's "level" is a red herring. The amount of power points you can dump into it it determines its effective level (as shown above)--however you're limited to how much power points you can dump and in what way. Even then, a psionic power's DC is still determined by its actual level (unless the DC can be modified as per the power's description).
Requiring the use of a 9th level spell in place of a 1st is just plain broken. I can't believe how many people are willing to wear blinders to the obvious simply because they like being munchkins.
Actually, you're being blinded to the fact that a) summon monster IX is better than astral construct augmented to the maximum, and b) that you have to spend 17 power points (the equivalent of a 9th-level spell slot), and be 17th-level to manifest a 9th-level astral construct.
So, a psion has to expend the same amount of resources to form a 9th-level astral construct that a wizard has to expend to summon a couatl, leonal, celestial roc (I wanna roc!), elder elemental, green slaad, barbed devil, fiendish dire shark (no jumping), gargantuan fiendish monstrous scorpion (roc... rock you like a hurricane), night hag, bebilith, colossal fiendish monstrous spider or hezrou. And that is munchkin, how?
There’s a lot of holes in a lot of the arguments, but I'm using this post to get back to what my article said, something that has yet to be disputed, even by Disposable Hero.
Feel free to point out the holes on your own time.
The base point is that in a day, your looking at around 20 rounds of combat. That means you have 20 chances to cast spells. The Psion, who has the ability to condense all of his power into those rounds has an advantage over a regular spellcaster. In fact, this makes him, hands down, the best COMBAT caster in the game, and Combat is probably around 80% of the game. Disposable Hero tried to dispute this, but what he did was show that using ALL of his slots, a wizard can do more damage then a psion. I'd have granted him that. But he’s not gonna have the Rounds of Combat to be able to CAST them all. THAT’S the basis of Impact, that the opportunities to cast is superior to the number of times per day and it’s something that the PP system gives in spades. The "Drawback", that you will run out of stamina, well, I think I tore THAT drawback apart pretty well in my article.
Not really, I'm afraid, but let me go back to your point. You say 20 rounds of combat? Very well. Let's do a damage comparison.
Leaving out fancy stuff like Quickens and Contingencies, and so on, and then assume that the 20th level wizard has NO bonus spells of 5th level or higher (huge point in favor of psion) and the 20th level psion has 400 pp (through bonus pp). Yes, I'm weighting this in the favor of the psion for a reason.
I'll give the Psion an energy power of his choice. So it's d6+1 damage per pp, most favorable possible for the psion. Spending a standard action to manifest and nothing more for 20 combat rounds, we've got 20rounds*20pp*1d6+1 per pp = 400d6+400 damage, average 1800 damage.
Now, with no bonus spell slots, a wizard will have to divide his 20 rounds between 9th, 8th, 7th, 6th, and 5th level spells, each of which he will have four. To choose the strongest damage effects, we have:
9th level - Meteor Swarm, 32d6 damage
8th to 6th level - Delayed Blast Fireball, Chain Lightning, Polar Ray, etc., for 20d6 damage
5th level - Cone of Cold, 15d6 damage.
So, let's add up the numbers. 32d6*4 =128d6 (9th level spells). 20d6*4*3=240d6 (8th to 6th level spells). 15d6*4=60d6 (5th level spells). 128d6+240d6+60d6=428d6 damage, average 1498 damage.
Weighted like crazy in favor of the psion, who is better at it for a number of reasons, and the final result is a difference of just over 300 damage in 20 combat rounds. That's an advantage to the psion of 15 points of damage every round. That's it. That's less than the bonus gained from choosing cold or fire as energy types - if the psion used anything else, he'd lose out. And this is not counting all the little spell slots the wizard can use for utility or other means, where the psion has 3 pp - unless you give him full bonus pp expectable for a psion of that level, in which case you should give the wizard the equivalent bonus spell slots, and then the wizard pulls ahead, again. I have not broken out the metamagic rods or anything else.
This is too much stamina? 15 damage a round at level 20? Please. Would you like other comparisons, at different levels? Perhaps with metamagic, or bonus spell slots? Your alternative is to argue for faster ways to end fights, in which case you are arguing for playing to something other than the wizard's weakest option (direct damage) and then I laugh. And we haven't touched Sorcerors yet.
But let me put it another way just in case. The PP system and augmentation makes it so every PP you spend is probably gonna have the same Impact on combat(randomness of the die not withstanding), unlike the wizards spell slots, which have diminishing returns. The extra stamina means nothing if you don't have the chance to use it. This isn't a problem that psion has and as to stamina, again, the psion has just as much power as a wizard or sorcerer or another spellcaster, he can just expel it faster.
You are correct in that the psionic dynamic is just that much more effective in expelling the resources available to psions than the magic dynamic is for expelling the resources available to mages. Despite this, the diminishing returns of mages are still more powerful than the top shots of psions in many areas. The reason Psionics are balance, despite their more effective system, is the fact that powers are not as threatening.
There is no infinite wealth loops in the XPH (Wall of Iron). There are no XP-free wishes in the XPH (Planar Binding). There are no insta-annihilate spells to finish epic encounters with a single casting in the XPH (Gate). There are just more balanced powers in a more effective system.
For your Impact argument to work, the package being delivered has to be sufficiently powerful to be a danger to balance.
I’ve looked and no one has actually disputed this. Disposable Hero tried admirably, but I think he misunderstood the theory of Impact. If he listed the number of rounds it would take for the wizard to do all that damage against the psion, my point is made clear. As for the "versatility" point, it is a dangerous thing to stand on. The wizard doesn't have THAT much versatility on a psion and the versatility of a wizard is largely unneeded compared to the combat power a psion. The "I can do things you can't" argument is just gonna lead in circles, but my base point is one that has not been refuted, and I don't believe CAN be refuted.
There's versatility, and then there's dangerous versatility.
So you are saying that if I want to charm a Kobold I MUST use a 4th level slot while the Psion can put the 1st level equivalent into his manifestation?
Yeah, that is stupid, isn't it? Why did the Psion get the sensible mechanic when the Sorcerer is jacked by his own spell system by having to learn two superfluous spells in order to maintain efficiency? I'm not seeing why the Psion's mechanics are the problem here.
Requiring the use of a 9th level spell in place of a 1st is just plain broken.
Demonstrate how. You are not going to prove anything besides the fact that the Sorceror is abused by a spell system designed for wizards.
I'd hate to have to ban somebody.
But let me put it another way just in case. The PP system and augmentation makes it so every PP you spend is probably gonna have the same Impact on combat(randomness of the die not withstanding), unlike the wizards spell slots, which have diminishing returns. The extra stamina means nothing if you don't have the chance to use it. This isn't a problem that psion has and as to stamina, again, the psion has just as much power as a wizard or sorcerer or another spellcaster, he can just expel it faster.
I think you're forgetting a key point. wizards and sorcerers have free scaling with many of their spells; psions don't. Just because the psion can spend all of his power points doesn't mean that he is more powerful than the wizard or sorcerer. On the contrary, he needs to spend all of his power points to keep up with the wizard and the sorcerer.
The more flexible a caster/manifester is, the less power they have. This is true for many classes. The wizard is the most powerful of the three, but is the least flexible because he needs to prepare his spells. The sorcerer comes next, who is a step down from the wizard in power but is a step up in flexibility. The psion has the ultimate flexibility but needs to use much of his power points to be as good as the wizard or sorcerer.
So you are saying that if I want to charm a Kobold I MUST use a 4th level slot while the Psion can put the 1st level equivalent into his manifestation?
Actually, you're taking a 1st level power and turning it into a 3rd level manifestation, or a 5th level one.
Here's the text:
Charm, Psionic
Telepathy (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Telepath 1
Display: Mental
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 1
As the charm person spell, except as noted here.
Augment
You can augment this power in one or more of the following ways.
1. If you spend 2 additional power points, this power can also affect an animal, fey, giant, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid. [A 3rd level manifestation]
2. If you spend 4 additional power points, this power can also affect an aberration, dragon, elemental, or outsider in addition to the creature types mentioned above. [A fifth level manifestation]
3. If you spend 4 additional power points, this power’s duration increases to one day per level. [possibly a manifestation at eighth level or even 10th level]
In addition, for every 2 additional power points you spend to achieve any of these effects, this power’s save DC increases by 1. [By 3rd level, you can increase the save DC by 1, and for every two levels thereafter].
The rule: "You can't spend more power points than your level on a manifestation" is plainly the limiter here. Also, it takes extra effort to augment psionic charm. So, in a story perspective, a psion is expending more mental energy than the Sorcerer. And the sorcerer only expends one slot?
The base point is that in a day, your looking at around 20 rounds of combat. That means you have 20 chances to cast spells. The Psion, who has the ability to condense all of his power into those rounds has an advantage over a regular spellcaster. In fact, this makes him, hands down, the best COMBAT caster in the game, and Combat is probably around 80% of the game. Disposable Hero tried to dispute this, but what he did was show that using ALL of his slots, a wizard can do more damage then a psion. I'd have granted him that. But he’s not gonna have the Rounds of Combat to be able to CAST them all. THAT’S the basis of Impact, that the opportunities to cast is superior to the number of times per day and it’s something that the PP system gives in spades. The "Drawback", that you will run out of stamina, well, I think I tore THAT drawback apart pretty well in my article.
You premise has the same two flawed assumptions its always had Kuraito:
1) Assuming that a 20 power point power is the same power level as a 9th level spell (or more powerful). I've tried to demonstrate that it is less, frequently considerably less. In a 20 round combat day a wizard can cast one spell per round and always cast a level 5+ (more likely a level 6+ or 7+ spell, but I won't assume to know what is representative of intelligence scores for 20th level wizards). Given free scaling there are numerous times when a 5th level or lower spell would be more effective than a psionic power even fully augmented (damage and mind control effects are notable exceptions).
2) Assuming that a wizard with 20 rounds doesn't have the time to cast all his spells. The CO record for spells cast in a single round (which I am the author of by the way) is 4778 spells in a single round, constrained only because thats as many spells as I could manage to prepare in a single day with a 20th level wizard. 53 spells in one round is within that capacity, 53 spells in 20 rounds is well within it as well. Kindly direct your attention to quicken spell, time stop, rod of quickening, and shapechange in core, if you want to go further, there are a lot more (psionic/arcane hybrids do remarkably well in this field actually). A high level wizard who doesn't deploy his entire arsenal in a day (or a round) is conserving, it is their choice to do so because it is by the basic rules well within their capacity to cast more in that time frame.
But let me put it another way just in case. The PP system and augmentation makes it so every PP you spend is probably gonna have the same Impact on combat(randomness of the die not withstanding)
true to an extent, I won't argue with that though, its a fair assessment.
unlike the wizards spell slots, which have diminishing returns. The extra stamina means nothing if you don't have the chance to use it. This isn't a problem that psion has and as to stamina, again, the psion has just as much power as a wizard or sorcerer or another spellcaster, he can just expel it faster.
1) Wizard's spell slots don't have diminishing returns, they have quite the opposite. A magic missile at caster level 1 does 1d4+1 damage, and at level 9+ does 5d4+4 damage, its absolute impact relative to its cost increases as level increases, unlike a psion's single power point, which as you stated has a fixed impact throughout his career, what I think you mean to say is the impact relative to his expected opposition decreases. This is true in some cases, most notably direct damage (which is why I've stated many times that its not a good career choice for a wizard or a psion to focus on direct damage), but not so much in others. Many mid level spells like haste, black tentacles, enervation, and so on have profound impact on high level combats without a change in their spell slots. Just because the same tactics that work at low levels don't always translate to higher levels doesn't mean that the wizard is not as capable at high levels, it merely means he must change his approach, something he can do very easily, unlike a psion, who to compensate has been given a system that allows his tactics to attain a measure of scalability to remain viable (though I would not say optimal in most cases) throughout his career.
2) Wizards do have the chance to use their extra stamina, they merely have to know how to do it (I'm tempted to do a sequel to my psionic nova thread for arcane spells, since no one seems to know how to nova with a wizard).
3) I've already proven (and you granted me the point) that in the course of a day a psion has less power than a wizard, I went into considerable depth on the subject, saying his has the same amount of power is blatantly incorrect, even by your own admission.
I’ve looked and no one has actually disputed this. Disposable Hero tried admirably, but I think he misunderstood the theory of Impact. If he listed the number of rounds it would take for the wizard to do all that damage against the psion, my point is made clear.
If I were to list the proper number of rounds in an optimized case in earnest, it would be 1 round for both the psion and the wizard, and the damage totals would both decrease slightly. As it stands time stop followed by 2-5 delayed blast fireballs is a pretty simple example of why 1 round: 1 spell simply doesn't apply to high level combats.
As for the "versatility" point, it is a dangerous thing to stand on. The wizard doesn't have THAT much versatility on a psion and the versatility of a wizard is largely unneeded compared to the combat power a psion.
I'm not going to stand on the versatility point because its very subjective. A psion with energy ray and a wizard with scorching ray running across some angry fire elementals is a good example of where the psion's versatility trumps. A telepath who relies on dominate and a wizard who likes to use dominate person/monster enter a long stretch of a campaign where they will fight primarily undead is a good example of where the wizard's versatility trumps.
The "I can do things you can't" argument is just gonna lead in circles, but my base point is one that has not been refuted, and I don't believe CAN be refuted.
I think you severely over-estimate the scope of psionic material out right now if you think that it will be a circular argument. Your base point is still flawed in exactly the way I pointed out the first time, it incorrectly assumes power level parity in spells and powers.
Second, you're ignoring the effect of wealth on spellcasting. Arcane spellcasting has an advantage in this regard too, as there are more options to augment them within the core rules alone than Psions get in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
The above points are my problems with your argument that seem at least somewhat objective in nature. My next point may be slightly less objective as it hinges upon my personal experience.
Lastly, you claim 20 rounds of combat per day. I have run several campaigns with Psionics under the assumptions outlined in the DMG and 20 rounds or fewer of combat is not by any means common. If you want to use it as a baseline, it is your duty to prove that it is relevant, which you have not done.
So you are saying that if I want to charm a Kobold I MUST use a 4th level slot while the Psion can put the 1st level equivalent into his manifestation?
Nope, Charm person works on Kobolds. Kobolds are humanoid. Thus Person works. Try an Ogre or aome other non-humanoid example please.
I hear the argument that "if there are the right number of encounters per day, it doesn't matter." One of the problems, especially at higher levels, is that very often the very characters who benefit most from fewer encounters per day (spellcasters) have the power to shape the number of encounters per day they have. Unless the DM is specifically always time-pressuring the PCs, an arcane caster can use spells like rope trick, leomund's secure shelter, mordy's magnificent mansion or even just good old fashioned teleport to let the PCs go rest.
Unless the DM is a riveting storyteller, able to always weave the time pressure into a vibrant plot that all of the players are wanting to pursue even at the expense of mechanical advantage to their characters, either he is going to have to be a bit heavy-handed on enforcing "encounters per day" or accept that at least some of the time, the arcane casters are going to be able to have a strong say in just how many encounters per day they will tolerate.
At the higher levels, another thing I personally have found is that it is difficult to have ~4 plausible and CR-appropriate encounters per adventuring day on a regular basis. There are fewer challenges ready-made for high CR combat/challenges than for the midrange of CRs, and any good high level combat takes a lot of preparation even when using a monster "out of the box." From a roleplaying standpoint, if you are throwing CR 15 creatures around left and right day in and out you need to have a rational explanation as to where all these challenges were all this time (especially if your world has relatively few high level creatures in it, by construction).
My experience is that the mid-high to high level game generally, for these or other reasons, does experience a decrease in the number of encounters per day, preferring to have one or two CR=partylevel+3 encounters than having four CR=party level encounters. This, of course, exacerbates the power creep that spellcasters experience as they reach the upper echelons of their casting ability.
There is, of course, considerable debate comparing the total spellcasting power of a wizard and a psion. That this debate is sufficiently protracted indicates to me it is not ridiculous to say that their total spellcasting powers are at least comparable, even if not exactly equal.
If this is a somewhat reasonable assumption, then we have:
1) Wizards and psions have roughly comparable levels of total power.
2) In my experience, higher level games tend toward a smaller number of encounters per day, on average.
3) Psions can use a greater amount of their total power in a short time than wizards can.
4) If there is only a short time to effectively use power in any given high-level adventuring day, and psions can use more power in that time than wizards can, then psions will seem more powerful than wizards.
Hardly a new argument, of course, but just trying to clarify in my mind how it works and what its assumptions are.
One of the arguments on behalf of wizards in counterexample to this is the wizard's ability to prepare and specialize on a daily basis. This is, on paper, absolutely true. In practice, wizards at least sometimes suffer from "I can take care of it tomorrow syndrome" -- having a wide range of spells does not mean the wizard will have the right spell at hand when needed.
Yes, in principle, I believe that any wizard of above a certain level should begin investing significantly in divination magic so that he always can be reasonably well prepared, but I must admit in practice that many wizards I have seen tend to memorize a "default spell selection" most adventuring days. This default gets tweaked a bit if there is advance information, but most wizards in my experience don't depart too radically from their preset default; they want to maintain their sets of options.
Also it must be remembered that wizards do not have the "divine inheritance" of clerics and druids -- every time a new supplement book comes out with new spells, divine casters at least potentially have new options at no opportunity cost. Wizards must still locate, purchase (or trade, or loot), and scribe any spell that they want to get a hold of, which is limited by the availability of said scroll in the campaign world, as well as the wizard's wealth and (sometimes more pressingly) time. It is one thing to look at the strong Sor/Wiz spell list and speak of the breadth of wizards, and another thing to look at an actual character spellbook and realize it is a far cry from the exponential free growth that a divine caster experiences. Broader than a sorcerer or psion? Yes. Not as broad as you might think, though...
A psion fighting his way through a dungeon is draining ALL of his powers (since they rely on the same points), and will be lucky to have enough PP left to manifest anything by the time he reaches the BBEG.
So you are saying that if I want to charm a Kobold I MUST use a 4th level slot while the Psion can put the 1st level equivalent into his manifestation?
Psions get a single power that's lower level than the arcane equivalent, while nearly every other psionic power is sub-par and comes at a later level than the arcane equivalent.
The dominate power/spell doesn't exist in a bubble so don't act like its balance hinges on such.
Requiring the use of a 9th level spell in place of a 1st is just plain broken. I can't believe how many people are willing to wear blinders to the obvious simply because they like being munchkins.
Astral constructs suck. Once again, however, you're using one of the only effects that is nicer in psionics than in magic.
If you want to make the argument that psionics shouldn't be able to do any single thing better than magic at all, you might have some points here. But the argument that these powers unbalance psionics is bunk. Pick some psionic powers at random and see how they stack up to the arcane equivalents.
Or you know, I could delve into my collection of every official 3.X book published to date and selectively point out every arcane and divine spell that's better than the psionic version (or for which a psionic equivalent does not exist). I don't know how WotC would feel about me posting nearly every spell they ever published, though, so I'd better not.
And herein lies your problem, I believe. The wizard has numerous advantages over the psion in non-combat situations, as chances are he has a utility spell for nearly *any* situation, so long as he has time to prepare it. This is incredibly useful for dealing with environmental and story problems, as well as implementing huge complicated plans that are awesome in scope and effect.
However, you're playing in a game that's 80% combat. So none of those advantages ever see the light of day.
I agree with this idea right here. Obviously, the OP is worried about game balance. Heck, everyone who plays the game cares about it at least a little. In order to judge game balance, comparisons must be made.
But I don't think the OP's going about it the right way in his comparisons. He's trying to look at it almost purely statistically and combat-oriented. I feel he's not recognizing the many other benefits and strengths of spell slots in general and the wizard or sorcerer specifically.
If you compare pairs of classes, regardless of what they are, and each possible pair fits with what is known and assumed, then you have a good method of comparison. However, if some comparisons counter what is given in an argument using the method of comparison, then either the method or the given is incorrect. Now for me to tie this up (I know, I ramble :P).
What is given is that the sorcerer's power is equal to (if not less than) the wizard's. However, if you use the OP's method of comparison of "per round bang," the wizard falls far short of the sorcerer. So why is the wizard on par with the sorcerer? He uses a distinctly different system. That's important, because it's also true when comparing the psion and the wizard. One has to incorporate these differences in any comparison between the two. The psion may be able to "go nova" and 1st level powers may remain quasi-useful during later levels, but the wizard isn't without his own perks.
The wizard knows more spells than the psion even if he only has the ones that come with levels in the wizard class. The wizard has more universal talents than the psion. Whereas psions must spend precious feats if they want to learn both Metamorphosis and Psionic Dominate, a wizard can just pick up Polymorph when he hits level 7 and Dominate Person when he hits level 9. As for not using lower slots, I question how well the players know how to maximize a wizard's effectiveness. Lower-level spells may not hit as hard (despite free scaling *nudge ribs*), but abjuration, transmutation, and divination spells never lose their usefulness.
In the end, a wizard is about planned utility. He is nothing to scoff at in combat, but out of combat is his forte.
The base point is that in a day, your looking at around 20 rounds of combat. That means you have 20 chances to cast spells.
Apparently no one ever has a need to cast spells/manifest powers outside of combat in your games. I find that to be a rather large anomaly ;) After taking into account buffs and utility abilities a psion could easily be down to less than half of his pp for a given day. A caster type can use up his lowest level of slots on such things and not even notice for his high level slots. At this point the psion is worried about running out and so must be conservative (or become a glorified commoner).
In very heavy combat campaigns specialist wizards and sorcs come out ahead because they have more uses/total damage per day. That is pretty much all that matters in that sort of game. In a game where there is virtually no combat a normal wizard will win. He has so much versatility it is crazy. And of course clerics/druids tend to either win or be serious contenders in each without much effort (druids mostly in certain types of environments).
Psions have a ton of choice about where to put those points, but it is a fairly limited pool and it is 'extremely' easy to run out if you do not plan appropriately. Remember, not every 'encounter' is a fight. Resources are used all over the place for a variety of reasons.
If a DM favors a certain type of playstyle heavily then of course it will shine, it is almost impossible for it not to. If you are finding the psion hands and above everyone else in every situation in your campaign you might want to figure out what about your campaign is causing this to happen. It could be something as simple as some players make much less optimal choices, or that combats always come down the same set of tactics which a certain build can destroy handily, or a hundred other things.
I have played pretty much every type of character at one point or another and I have to say that psions are, overall, weaker than their caster counterparts. Sure, some points are better, but the limited selection and higher costs for similar effects really hit home after awhile. Is being worse in a great many ways acceptable? Apparently not, some people want psions to be worse in 'every' way, and maybe to kick them even after that. It just doesn’t make any sense
This principle could actually be translated further and actually show us why sorcerers, wizards and other casters tend to dominate games after having reached level 12+ (at least for arcane... before that for divine). But that has nothing to do with the thread itself.
I’m no true expert on psionics, so I won't discuss the rules of them, but I will add in that I have never used them and probably never will, because of the flavor. For the system maybe, but never for the flavor
So you are saying that if I want to charm a Kobold I MUST use a 4th level slot while the Psion can put the 1st level equivalent into his manifestation?
Requiring the use of a 9th level spell in place of a 1st is just plain broken. I can't believe how many people are willing to wear blinders to the obvious simply because they like being munchkins.
A wizard wouldn't use Charm Monster. A sorcerer would probably have to. That some powers can be used for more things than arcane spells is due to the fact that there are no preparing psions. Since sorcerers and wizards share a spell list, spells have to be adapted to the fact that a wizard can have access to every single one of them (granted, he probably won't, and spells still aren't balanced for this fact). Using a sorcerer for comparisons isn't fair, since he doesn't have a spell list adapted to the fact that he only knows a limited amount of spells. The psion/wilder power list is, and as such, many powers are adapted to be more flexible, which makes them seem more powerful. In actual gameplay, they will shine and flop at times, just like any other character.
These two things also just happen to be two things that psionics can do better. The fact that they can do nothing resembling necromancy and illusions (two of the arguably most powerful/versatile schools of magic, unless your GM is being nasty and making your illusions fail all the time) is rarely brought up as far as I can see. Plus, their ability to buff up parties is quite limited. Haste is simply unequaled.
Of course, I say this barring anything in CPsi (which I don't have and can't comment on, though it seems most people have been quite negative towards it, even traditional psionic supporters).
Besides, I've never seen a psion successfully and constantly use scry-teleport-die-tactics. They simply have too few powers known to be able to dominate any situation, that not being said properly chosen powers can be *used* in any given situation. A smart psion will always be able to contribute.
Now, talking from experience:
I have been the GM for psions. I've played psions myself. The only time they came off as overpowered was before we had realized the cap on spending power points and the kineticist promptly annihilated a Boneclaw with a 25-point Energy Missile. Never made that mistake again.
20th level a Psion has 320+ Power Points. His versatility comes from the fact that he can use nothing but 9th level powers which are augmented. He doesn't have to spend feats to learn most augmentations, and only has to spend Power Points to do so. He is only limited by his Power Points and Power Point Limits.
20th level Wizard has the equivalent of 400+ Spell Points. He does not have to pay to enhance his spells effectiveness. However he is limited by the number of high powered spells he can use, and must spend feats to learn special effects to enhance his magic.
To me it seems like the Psion is not anymore powerful then a wizard. However it seems the topic of discussion is the warlock vs the Psion. The warlock is extremely limited in abilities. Yes you can use them over and over again, however it is extremely limited in the capabilities. Way much more then the Psion. I think the Warlock can be a good class to play depending on what you want to play. Also note that your character in most campaigns may only be Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral in alignment. That really limits you in RPing as well as use of certain items and magical abilities.
Case I: The party just has one big fight, then goes home to rest. In this case, the Psion certainly could nova. However, a spellcaster could do the same thing by using all their high level slots.
Case II: The party has four or more fights in a day. In this case, the Psion could nova, but would then run out of power points too early.
The only case I could see that Psions would get a big advantage in is when the party takes on two battles in a day - not more, not less, just enough that the spellcasters have already used all their highest-level spells, but not so much that the Psion starts running dry. So frankly, this doesn't seem like a huge problem - all classes have certain situations they're better in, and a Wizard can nova if they want to - just add Quicken and/or Metamagic Rods.
Oh, and furthermore, please stop saying that "A 1st level power is as good as a 9th level spell", or the like, when the 1st level power in question was augmented up to 17+ pp. A 1st level power augmented that high is not functionally a 1st level power any more, except that it can still be dispelled or blocked as easily as one. If you spend 17 pp, then you are effectively spending a 9th level power.
Wizards (or any mana slinger) overpower a fighter/warrior almost every time. Presuming the wizard or caster is properly prepared. Hence the requirement to limit the manifestor/caster to a meager 1/3rd of potential. Nonetheless, of the 170 character levels worth of examples in the level 10 league - over 50 of those levels are wizard. 30 or more are cleric. I think there’s a druid, and there is a hefty representation of psionic warrior.
Fighters and Rangers are sparse. Not a single bard level stands amongst them... and as far as Psion? 1. As in one level out of 170. Not exactly the powerhouse of "Impact" one might think.
Because of game mechanics for advancement the Psion has an Edge combat wise over other spell casters before going Nova which other spell casters can emulate but not quite as well because of fixed spell choices for non spontaneous casters and use of feats and rods for Favored Souls and Sorcerers. Sure a sorcerer level 20 can cast Magic Missile or Fireball with a Ninth level Spell Slot but you only see it in an emergency or a pinch because there are more effective ways of doing things.
Sure there are all sorts of campaigns with roleplaying, traps and puzzle solving encounters but when all is said and done PC advancement is still usually dependent on 50%+ combat encounters in comparison to the others.
You see a lot of posts about 4 balanced encounters a day or 20 rounds of combat. Most groups press on when they are doing well and are not tapped out and break to recuperate after expending most of their resources or finding themselves inadequate to the task and requiring a new strategy regardless of daily encounters particularly at mid to higher levels (Rope Trick, Teleport, Word of Recall etc.).
What I find most impressive about the psion it that he has 34 on the fly spontaneous power choices or more at level 20 (Hidden Talent, Expanded Knowledge) which can all be ramped up to "Level 9 Powers" by spending 17 - 20 PP without needing to modify the power with a feat to deal with what will normally be a combat encounter.
Throw in a few feats and you can really start optimizing your power points.
Autohypnosis = No problem with stabilization.
Psionic Body = Much too much HP for a caster class, in my opinion.
Energy Missile = 2nd level power, d6+1 damage per point to multiple targets, no save, minimum points spent 3.
Also, Psions have a very large amount of utility powers as well. If Wizards have an advantage here, it's not a very large one.
That said, I like Psions, and with an intelligent DM, they are easily balanced.
Like radical taoist has mentioned about particular DMs, I too have fallen in the trap of not knowing the system "by heart," of how psionics worked and a player took advantage of it...and ruined the game. My suggestion would be to play a psion to learn the system better. Which I will probably do to see how I like it on the other side; to see if I think it is overpowered from that point of view. If I don't think so, I will happily let psionics back into my game.
This is a suggestion I give to the OP. Also, try to get someone to play a wizard to see the comparison in the same campaign. Or, play in two campaigns, starting at equal levels and play a psion in one campaign and a wizard in the other. And, don't be biased in either game to give you a false conclusion. If you have already done this, OP, and believe that psionics is still overpowered, then please ignore everything above.
Now, to back his side of the argument.
I've already stated I don't know the system by heart. My opinion isn't golden; simply because I am ignorant in comparing the two classes effectively to voice my solid opinion. I will, however, make an observation that I don't believe has been mentioned on these boards.
I have read many threads on the topic of "how overpowered/balanced/underpowered psionics are." And you know what? It's the same people accusing and defending. Especially defending. Anytime a player seems to come on the conclusion (and as I stated, many of these individuals refuse to learn the system, or remain ignorant, thus becoming a constant complainer about psionics) that psionics are broken or more powerful than core, the same individuals such as radical taoist and the other "these are the facts, man" people defend their favorite system faster than a mother bird protecting her eggs in a nest. Is this bad? No, that's not what I'm saying. These individuals are trying to give the facts that they have already figured out, learned, seen, or what have you to protect their golden part of the game. An obviously, they really like psionics. That's why they are on the psionics board all the time. Or is it? Perhaps these individuals just love psionics so much, they are willing to argue with a fencepost to get their point across. I do agree with the comment about they are intending to give factual information instead of biased information, but like in anything in life, you must sample it or get experience in something to see for yourself. The things on these boards are opinions; and you can throw math at me all day, but as someone already mentioned, #'s on paper is different than #'s in game play. This is why I suggested playing both classes in a level by level case; which I will do to see for myself what I think about these classes in comparison.
Now for the doozy; for Radical Taoist and the rest of you "psionic backers," if mages, sorcerers, are so much more powerful that psionics...and you argue that psionics are way underpowered compared with the versatility of arcanists, then why on EARTH would you play a psion?
I agree that most of the problems with psionics is ignorance of the system; but most individuals, unless they love challenges or they're the DM, tend to believe play what they think is going to be the favored character. For example, if I wanted to play an arcane type of character that functioned in spells, would I choose a specialist wizard, or a magewright from Eberron? How about between an NPC class warrior, or a PC class, fighter? If you had the choice, which would you choose? The specialist and the fighter of course, so you could be better at what you do.
For the sake of anymore comparing, the XPH even states that you should use psionics in your game as "magic." In the effect of a dispel magic dispelling psionics and vice/versa. So under that sense, in this argument, I am going to say psions and wizards are "magic" users, even though psions don't use magic; just to go along with simplicity from the XPH.
For all those threads of "Wizards are more powerful than sorcerers," do you think they choose sorcerers? Probably not. Like the extremely lopsided choices (that's why I used those choices) above, why would you choose to play a sorcerer if you think wizards are better?
So with all that explaining for this one question: if you think psions are less-powerful or balanced in comparison to a wizard, why would you still play one? Flavor? Or could the OP have a point that the psions can concentrate all their power points to do more devastating damage in combat?
Using the leveling reducing feats to reduce the levels on metamagic feats, a Wizard or Sorc (droping his familiar for instantaneous metamagics from PHBII) can toss out a ton of damage comparable to that of the psion during a 20 round competition. While the Psion could likewise take some feats to manifest powers twice per round, it kills his overall damage because of the direct power point to damage dice conversion.
I don't have my books here but I think a damage heavy wizard could come close to the damage burst that a psion can do over a 20 round period.
When I get home, I will do a 20 round breakdown for a wiz/sorc and show how it is comparable to a psion using feats that reduce the modified levels of quicken and empower to allow a wizard/sorc to throw multiple spells every round.
Let’s take this comparison to the top and see what it looks like at 20th
Our caster and manifester now both have 30 intelligence (started at 15, +5 from levels, +4 from a tome of int, and +6 from a headband).
The wizard has the following spells per day
4/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5
Direct conversion - 447 points
Spell level conversion - 502 points
Psion's Total - 443 points
Wizard's Options:
1st level - shocking grasps - 5d6
2nd level - scorching ray - 12d6
3rd level - fireball - 10d6
4th level - empowered scorching ray - 18d6
5th level - empowered fireball - 15d6
6th level - chain lightning - 15d6
7th level - delayed blast fireball - 20d6
8th level - polar ray - 20d6
9th level - meteor swarm - 32d6
Grand Total: 827d6 - average 2894.5
Psion's Option
Empowered Energy Power - 27d6, can be done 22 times per day with 3 points left for a 3d6 energy ray
Grand Total: 597d6 - average 2089.5 damage
I want to take up Disposable Hero's argument but I want to show what the impact per round for a caster specialized in damage looks like. The advantage of the Wizard/Sorc is that damage scaling is on their side. Psions are limited by their power points first and foremost and using metapsionic powers simply drains their points available more quickly.
Here is the level 20 Sorcerer build using the PHB, PHB II, Complete Arcane and Races of the Dragon:
Human Sorcerer 20
-Metamagic Specialist from PHBII (replaces having a familiar and allows Sorcs to apply metamagics without increasing casting times)
Charisma 30 (15 base, +5 from levels, +6 from Item, +4 tome)
Daily Spells: 6/9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7
1. Draconic Heritage
1. Empower Spell
3. Quicken Spell
6. Twin Spell
9. Energy Substitution [Acid]
12. Arcane Thesis (Scorching Ray)
15. Practical Metamagic (Quicken)
18. Practical Metamagic (Twin)
Spell Levels
2nd Scorching Ray 12d6
3rd Empowered Scorching Ray 18d6
4th Twinned Scorching Ray 24d6
5th Empowered Twinned Scorching Ray 30d6
6th Empowered Twinned Scorching Ray 30d6
7th Quickened Empowered Twinned Scorching Ray 30d6
8th Quickened Empowered Twinned Scorching Ray 30d6
9th Quickened Empowered Twinned Scorching Ray 30d6
Spells per Round
1. 5th and 9th =60d6
2. 5th and 9th =60d6
3. 5th and 9th =60d6
4. 5th and 9th =60d6
5. 5th and 9th =60d6
6. 5th and 9th =60d6
7. 5th and 9th =60d6
8. 5th and 8th =60d6
9. 6th and 8th =60d6
10. 6th and 8th =60d6
11. 6th and 8th =60d6
12. 6th and 8th =60d6
13. 6th and 8th =60d6
14. 6th and 8th =60d6
15. 6th and 7th =60d6
16. 6th and 7th =60d6
17. 7th and 7th =60d6
18. 4th and 7th =54d6
19. 4th and 7th =54d6
20. 4th and 7th =54d6
20 rounds of combat = 1182d6; 4137 Average Damage
This damage can be either Fire or Acid
A wilder could squeeze out a couple more dice of damage using wild surges with metamagics but I don't believe they could top the 1182 dice of damage.
While the above "impact" is single target only, a similar build could be done using the Wizard class, Archmage PrC, and either the Easy Metamagic feat from Dragon magazine or the Incantrix PrC. This combination becomes even more versatile because you can aoe with any energy type and not effect allies for the cost of one 5th level and one 8th level spell.
My point is that I don't think you can simply look at the mechanic of the spells and powers to dictate the damage potential but we must instead look at the impact of available feats (and possible PrCs) when determining balance. Currently there are only 2 official sources that are dedicated primarily to psionics (Expanded Psionics Hbk and Complete Psionic) and there are a handful of world resources that have a small amount of extra powers or feats while there are copious amounts of resources to enhance and augment the magic system.
I believe if you look at the big picture, the two systems are balanced.
An excellent analysis of both sides and especially, a very good start for my day.I belong to the bunch of DMs who dislike psionics because of the flavor, not because it’s broken. True, I once thought that, but that was when I still played 3.0. I've read through the myth thread about psionics (and while I don't agree with a few statements there), I still believe psionics to be balanced, if used properly and challenged in ways they should be. Psionics only has a true advantage if the DM hasn't read through the book, is unfamiliar with the rules and doesn't know how to challenge them (oh the good old "nah, he's immune to your spells and powers. However, swords seem to damage him" always places the fighter as overpowered).
The psionic system is very inventive and true, it has its advantages over the Spell-slot system, but I still prefer the spell-slot system, because it provides a very simple and understandable use for magic.
I can hardly understand how people have a hard time explaining that system... it's just "You have these spells and can cast them x times a day" if your a sorcerer or "chose x spells which you will be able to cast to day" I've yet to find a person who hasn't understood that system in a few minutes
But I'll rate this thread a solid 5 stars :D
I think that your reasoning is flawed because you only look at power points and spell slots, and not what those power points and spell slots actually do. In many cases, a Wizard's 2nd level slots can very nearly equal what a Psion's 5 Power Point power can do.
It is quite true, especially at lower levels, that a Psion is in a very real danger of running out of power points. Let's take your theoretical 5th level Psion who can manifest 5 fully augmented powers. Which fully augmented powers is he going to manifest? Technically a first level power that's fully augmented is the equal of a 3rd level power, but Wizards get this augmentation for free. That means that they get more Impact for casting lower level spells. The end effect of this is that they can end combats even faster, given that they can cast equivalent Impact spells twice as much.
A Specialist Wizard can have as much as 3 actual 3rd level slots in a day, and then follow that up with 4 2nd level slots and 5 1st level slots. These 2nd level slots can be filled with such awesomely powerful spells such as Web, which at that level, can settle a combat all by itself. Now that's Impact.
Any advantage the Psion has here in terms of Impact is purely illusory, and is based on relying only on "theory." In practice, a 5th level Psion impacts combat much less than a 5th level Wizard can, simply because Wizard slots count for more power than they would otherwise have when converted into power point equivalents. In "theory" terms, a Wizard's 2nd level slots are often worth 5 power point in and of themselves.
If you're assuming that a Psion can simply "drop a 5 power point power" to virtually finish up combat at level 5, then you're simply quite wrong. A Psion has very limited Powers Known, and his higher level powers may or may not be very useful. Would you expect a 5 point Mind Thrust to reliably work? Of course not, but sometimes you have no other option.
At 20th level, a Psion can manifest up to 17 fully augmented powers, and you may have a stronger case there (since playtesting is not as rigorous as those levels), but in this case, you're mistaken again. At those levels, it's all about the NOVA, and Wizards can NOVA just as well as Psions can, in every practical sense. Of course, you can have people arguing that a Wizard can only inflict 100 000+ hitpoints of damage as opposed to a Psion's 200 000+, but at that point, I don't think anything's going to survive anyway, so the point is moot.
Psions can burn faster than Wizards can. At lower levels, this means that they run out fatally fast. At higher levels, it becomes moot because the Wizard can burn through his slots fast enough for it not to matter one way or the other. This has been shown conclusively on the Psionics board.
The theory that Psionics has more Impact is only true in one sense - a mid level Psion can gamble an absurdly high number of Power Points on several high point powers in one single encounter, but then that has the very real drawback of his being completely useless thereafter.
Psionics "burn out" not because of a lack of power, but because they have just as much power as a Wizard or Sorcerer, but are able to expel it at a MUCH more rapid rate. This, in my eyes, is a TREMENDOUS strength, and gives psionics an Impact per Round greater then any other single class. Add in that, as I pointed out above, a psionic should not have stamina issues in a well formed party, since the "novas" he gets are more then adequate for a day, and if not, then more then likely the Wizard or Cleric is in almost as much trouble as he is. Fortunately, the resources he spent SAVED overall resources for the party, thus allowing them to finish this combat without his aid. The Wizard on the other hand, is probably down to 4th level spells, since his lower level spells lack the Impact to end combat as quickly as his higher level spells, thus drawing out combat, thus making him and his party expend more and more resources, round after round, long after the psionic combat has ended.
This is one of many reasons psionics can be considered overpowered, but I consider it the main reason. Their "better then spontaneous casters" spontaneous manifesting, the incredibly flexibility of their powers, and the fact that being psionic grants a VAST array of options that non psionic characters get no part of, all contribute to make psionics a powerful, dare I say broken, addition to the game.
A very well-thought out argument--but there's one flaw: You base much of your argument on the assumption that psionic powers can be limitlessly augmented--they can’t.
To quote the Expanded Psionics Handbook: "The maximum number of power points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to your manifester level."
What this effectively does, if give the psionic character a higher level version of every augmentable spell they know--they can manifest any power they know as the highest level of power they can use. Basicly, if they can use 5th level powers, they can manifest any of their augmentable powers as 5th level powers--with the appropriate changes already figured in.
You see this in spells already with such things as Cure Light Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, Cure Critical Wounds, etc., as well as the various Summon Monster spells. The differences are that psionic powers are designed from the ground-up to be easily scaled to higher-level versions, and that you automatically learn the "higher level versions" of any powers you know.
In general, psionic powers do seem to be more utilitarian than spells, but I really haven't used them in my campaign long enough to decide whether they are overpowered or not--since gameplay a better test of balance than math and theorizing. So far, it doesn't seem to be a problem. The wizard plays it smart and uses his spells wisely to get maximum effect out of each one, and the psionic character hurls power at his enemies and mouths off about his "superior" mental abilities--there' something to be said for game mechanics that encourage good roleplaying. :D ...and frankly, psionics works the way spellcasting should.
It only makes sense that a caster's skill with a certain spell improves as they use it--allowing them to cast bigger and better versions of that spell--and it's always bothered me that the elemental offensive spells are usually limited to one element. You have fireball and lightning bolt, but no coldball or acid bolt--and you have cone of cold but if you want a fire spell with a cone area you have to use the weaker, 1st level burning hands or research your own. The various "orb of" spells help with this, giving uniform offensive spells for every element, but you really shouldn't have to learn five different spells just to be able to choose what kind of energy your attack spell does--summon monster, protection from elements, and Gate can be adapted to any of the five energy types without requiring multiple spells, why should fireball or lightning bolt?
A) In order for a Psion to use Metapsionic feats to any sort of effect that the Wizard can, they have to spend 2-3 Feats--a massive cost on the psion. Those feats are Narrow Mind (+4 to become Psionically Focused, and at DC 20, that really helps), Psionic Meditation (become Psionically focused as a move action INSTEAD of a full round action), and, if you would like, Expanded Knowledge (to gain Hustle, 3pp, which bestows a move action). So, to get the same desired effect of a single Metapsionic feat, you have to spend 2-3 more to output the same as a Wizard. Now if you like to use more than one, oh my! 2 more feats (Psicrystal Affinity, and Psicrystal containment) to only get one more effect taking the extra turn to recharge.
B) In no way is the Psion limited to the number of Powers they get save the Specialization Disiplines and Psychic Warrior (Which Hustle is exclusivally). In EPH Under adding powers you will find that Psions only, not Wilders or Psychic Warriors may add powers to known powers through Exp and time expense. Not only can they do that, but they can also 'extract' powers form other sources, not including the opposing team, albeit at very high skill DC's.
Don't get me wrong, I am an avid Psion player and love playing them. But Magic was losing, and I like to see a balanced playing field, besides even with the new bomb in place, the system is pretty balanced. The psion has to specialize in either item creation, Metapsionic, or DCs to even do anything substantial. While the Wizard can comfortably do all Three. Made up for in psionics with spontaneous manifesting, and the ability to completely hide the source of the power (another bomb) without the use of metapsionic feats. so the extreme limit of Metapsionics and the type of Meta's between Magic and Psions roughly come out the same, Psionics get the, hide what your doing reduced to a Concentration check while the Wizards have to spend the 2-3 extra feats Psions waste getting those same effects, scaled even.
Conshey
I do not compare casters at level 20. Level 20 play represents a minority of D&D play. The nature of this discussion requires that the compared characters be fairly high level. Therefore I use level 15.
Because this is a “who can burst better” contest, I assume the Wizard is an Evoker. This discussion lies entirely in the realm of SRD. Extended books might change the analysis significantly. Int scores benefits are not taken into account. Magic items are not taken into account.
Mathcraft is a tricky dance. If this were a formal paper, I could better support the math, and occasional assumption, that I use. I've spent quite a bit of time checking myself, so please do not be too swift to blot out my results.
Before Using Feats...
For both Psions and Evokers, d6 is the damage die. Psions cannot manifest beyond their manifester level, capping them out at 15d6 per spell. Similarly an Evoker's damage is determined by caster level capping them out to 15d6 per spell. Because of an Evoker's spell damage cap on low level spells, only spells level 5 or above contribute to his bursts.
A level 15 Psion has 195 Points to play with. That gives him 13 Spells per day which produce 15d6.
A level 15 Evoker has 14 Spells per day level 5-8. That gives him 14 Spells per day which produce 15d6.
So, on a basic level, Psions and Evokers are even.
Boosting the Bursts
13 Spells per day is more than probably necessary. I'm operating on the assumption that we want about 10 big spells. Both classes have means to boost their damage, at the cost of fewer spells per day.
Boosting the Psion's Damage
Looking through the Psionic Feats, these are the feats that would be used to boost damage.
- Overchannel boosts a Psion's damage up to 18d6, and he can only cast 10 times per day.
- Twin Power gives +1x Damage, with 6pp cost. 15d6 -> 2x9d6 = 18d6. 18d6 -> 2x12d6 = 24d6
- Maximize Power gives +.7x Damage, with 4pp cost. 15d6 -> 1.7x11d6 = 18.8d6. 18d6 -> 1.7x14d6 = 24d6
- Empower Power gives +.5x Damage, with 2pp cost. 15d6 -> 1.5x13d6 = 19.5d6. 18d6 -> 1.5x16d6 = 24d6
So, between using the Overpower feat in combination with one of the metamagic feats, a Psion can expect to dish out 24d6 damage per round, paying 18pp for each cast, so 10 casts a day. The average daily burst damage is 840.
Quicken Power and Split Ray would also boost damage, but Split Ray seems circumstantial, and Quicken Power would be too expensive – We're not willing to reduce to 5 casts per day.
Boosting the Evoker's Damage
From levels 5 to 8, the Evoker's damage is capped at 15d6. Like the Psion, the Evoker has Metamagic Options:
- Empower Spell gives +.5x Damage, with 2 level cost.
- Maximize Spell gives +.7x damage, with 3 level cost.
- Quicken Spell gives +*Damage, with 4 level cost.
Quicken Spell is a special case, we'll touch on that later.
So, the Evoker's spell list looks something like this:
- Level 8 Spell -> Maximized Lvl 5 Spell = 1.7x15d6 = 25.7d6 2 Times per Day
- Level 7 Spell -> Empowered Lvl 5 Spell = 1.5x15d6 = 22.5d6 3 Times per Day
- Level 6 Spell -> Quickened.
- Level 5 Spell = 15d6 5 Times per Day.
Between the Level 8, 7, and 5 spells, the Evoker can expect to deal 678 burst damage in a day.
The Evoker is already spending 10 rounds casting spells, so to add to his arsenal, we use the 6th level slots for quickening. The only suitable spell to quicken is Scorching Ray. The damage of Scorching Ray is 12d6 at the Evoker's level. Being a ray, it is weak compared to other spell types. Without getting too heavy into methods... let us assume that a 12d6 Scorching Ray would be as effective as a 8d6 non-ray spell.
Level 6 Spell -> Quickened Lvl 2 Spell = 8d6 5 Times per Day.
So, these Level 6 slots contribute 140 damage to the Evoker's daily burst output, putting him up to 818 burst damage in a day.
Comparison
Again, Psions and Evokers come out pretty even on paper 840 damage per day vs 818 damage per day. There are a few factors still to take into effect:
Evoker's strong points
- Higher Damage output in a single Round. A single round burst of the Evoker's Quickened Scorching Ray + Maximized Cone of Cold frankly can't be matched.
- More spells. In addition to his Level 5-8 spells, the Evoker also has quite a few 1-4 Level spells. By the Warlock Principle, there won't be time to use these in combat effectively, but they could still be useful if cast in preparation for combat. The Psion has no power left over in addition to his bursts.
- Doesn't need to Overchannel. The Psion dealt himself 5d8 points of damage every time he cast a spell. The math used here assumed that the Psion would be able to sustain this, but given that a lvl 15 Psion has somewhere in the neighborhood of 45Hp, that assumption is not realistic.
- Doesn't need to Focus. Before using a metamagic feat, the Psion must spend a full round action gaining Psionic Focus. The assumption that a Psion could use a metamagic feat every round is not realistic.
Psion's Strong points
- Versatility. Major selling point over the Evoker. Our Evoker's spell list, in the math above, consists almost entirely of Cone of Cold because that maximized damage. If the Evoker runs into a cold-resistant enemy, he's in trouble because of spell preparation. The Psion has many options.
- Versatility Again. Let us say that the Evoker knows he will go up against cold-resistant foes, and prepares fire/shock magic. Because of the metamagic games an Evoker must play to maximize damage, it's in his best interest at level 15 to cast level 5 spells. The Evoker has no basic damage spells at level 5 other than Cone of Cold. Switching over to a mix of Lvl 4 and 6 spells will reduce damage output.
If we realistically assume that the Psion could not overchannel every round, and could not use a metamagic feat every round, then the Evoker probably deals better burst damage, but that this comes at the cost of the Evoker preparing every high-level spell slot on damage, and being incapable of dealing with certain situations.
See how easy it is to plead the opposite? Comparing psionics to magic is like comparing apples to oranges.
Psionics has developed into a system independent of magic. They have many similar talents and tricks, and they have many of their own. Psionics hasn't developed into a system as large as magic has and you are quite limited in what you can do. Each book adds new spells, but it's rare to see new powers.
Psions are also limited between encounters. If 80% of your games are combat, then I can understand why psionics seems unbalanced. Our campaigns have a heavy role-playing aspect, and while you can build your character for combat, things such as glibness will go much further than maximum-augmented energy rays.
How often do your parties level up? We have one social, then one adventure where we find an excuse to hunt someone down, followed by an adventure with between 3-8 encounters. They are admittedly real easy encounters, but fun nonetheless. Is this normal, or are our campaigns unique? How do you get into your characters and immerse yourself in your campaigns if you play 80% combat? Your campaigns seem boring
So you are saying that if I want to charm a Kobold I MUST use a 4th level slot while the Psion can put the 1st level equivalent into his manifestation?
Requiring the use of a 9th level spell in place of a 1st is just plain broken.
Both these examples aren't relevant. The role of casters in a party are to add flexibility and punch to deal with the serious problems that a party encounters. If a party operating at the level where 4th level spell slots are available is confronted with a base level Kobold, neither the spellcaster nor the psion should be wasting their resources on it. Let the fighters sneeze at it.
There may be occasions when you need information or somesuch, but these will probably be fairly rare, and anyway, a sorcerer needs some disadvantages. Usually, when a much lower spell slot will handle the situation, limited resources should not be being wasted on it anyway.
I think you're forgetting a key point. wizards and sorcerers have free scaling with many of their spells; psions don't. Just because the psion can spend all of his power points doesn't mean that he is more powerful than the wizard or sorcerer. On the contrary, he needs to spend all of his power points to keep up with the wizard and the sorcerer.
I disagree because the psion can basically scale all his or her powers to 9th level with out feats by adding PP. Sure a sorcerer can use a Ninth level spell slot to cast magic missile but you never see that happening because there is rarely any value for it short of being the only attack that will hit a creature but doing no more damage than casting it as a First Level Spell. It is usually better to use a Seventh or Eighth level spell. When a Psion maxes out Energy Missile with 20 PP he increases the DC+17 and increases the damage +17D6 from a 3 PP Energy Missile.
The more flexible a caster/manifester is, the less power they have. This is true for many classes. The wizard is the most powerful of the three, but is the least flexible because he needs to prepare his spells. The sorcerer comes next, who is a step down from the wizard in power but is a step up in flexibility. The psion has the ultimate flexibility but needs to use much of his power points to be as good as the wizard or sorcerer.
Consider UA and the Spell Points per day Table 5-3 A level 20 Wizard got 232 points so you would think a Specialist Wizard would get 278 points and a Sorcerer would get 348 since they can cast 150% of the daily spells of a standard wizard but Specialist don't get extra points and sorcerers only get 249 PP. A 17 PP game mechanic spread refutes that argument IMO.
You premise has the same two flawed assumptions it’s always had Kuraito:
1) Assuming that a 20 power point power is the same power level as a 9th level spell (or more powerful). I've tried to demonstrate that it is less, frequently considerably less. In a 20 round combat day a wizard can cast one spell per round and always cast a level 5+ (more likely a level 6+ or 7+ spell, but I won't assume to know what is representative of intelligence scores for 20th level wizards). Given free scaling there are numerous times when a 5th level or lower spell would be more effective than a psionic power even fully augmented (damage and mind control effects are notable exceptions).
1. As many people already noted, at this point, damage spells are mostly a waste of a round, and these are the only spells that really do any super noticeable free scaling for the wizard that the psion has to augment for.
2. Even if I give you that his 9th level spells are more powerful, Is it more powerful then his 8th? His 7th? His 6th? Because when the wizard is down to 5th level spells, the psion is using his last 9th level power.
3. I haven’t really seen much that tells me a 9th level spell is more powerful then a 9th level power. Most effects a wizard can do, I can find something about as strong...well, except maybe Gate. Mostly though, I can do something that has around the same impact, indeed, many times, it will almost directly mimic the wizards spell. And for each spell that the wizard can do and the psion can't, I find one the psion can do that the wizard can't. I freely admit to using Core only when doing this, I will give to you that the wizard has much more books to pull from, and I hope Psionics both gets more support and is core in 4.0. The point of my whole argument is that the PP method is better then the spell slot system and that the wizards large (core) spell list IS NOT enough to counter this advantage, just like its not enough to counter Divines greater HD and Bab.
2) Assuming that a wizard with 20 rounds doesn't have the time to cast all his spells. The CO record for spells cast in a single round (which I am the author of by the way) is 4778 spells in a single round, constrained only because thats as many spells as I could manage to prepare in a single day with a 20th level wizard. 53 spells in one round is within that capacity, 53 spells in 20 rounds is well within it as well. Kindly direct your attention to quicken spell, time stop, rod of quickening, and shapechange in core, if you want to go further, there are a lot more (psionic/arcane hybrids do remarkably well in this field actually). A high level wizard who doesn't deploy his entire arsenal in a day (or a round) is conserving, it is their choice to do so because it is by the basic rules well within their capacity to cast more in that time frame.
1. I'm not going by twinked, because honestly, I don't twink. I at best, min/max. Arcane might have higher thresholds of twinking, I personally think that the psion is easier to do it with. Its basically already gift wrapped, arcane you at least have to THINK. Everyone I play with plays classes casually, they sometimes try to be clever, but I have never had a player in my group do anything as sick as the things you describe. Arcane being able to be twinked harder doesn't negate anything, it just means it has more loop holes to exploit.
2. Impact also assumes you have the stamina to last a day. Nova to hard, and you run out. My point about psionics is they can not only "nova", but they have the stamina to do so consistently without fear of stamina issues unless the DM feels like pulling a fast one. And I GUARENTEE you, that if the psions out of PP, the wizard in the same party is down to 4th level spells, LESS if he’s been trying to out do the psion, and he’s sweating just as much.
3. You can expend all your spells in 20 rounds? Easily? I'm sorry; I don't buy that for a second. You’re gonna have to TRY to pull that off, and doing it casually will be very clunky and inefficient. Your going to have to actually build for it, invest quite a bit in GP, feats, time, etc. Also, why psions do lack the rods of quickening, I to, if I wanted to, could manage to blow around half of my PP in a round "without trying" (quicken, Temporal Acceleration). Quickening actually favors the Psion fyi, because 4 slots are a hell of a lot more precious to a wizard then 6 points are to a psion. Though granted, that is 6 less points of augmentation, but a 5th level spell taking up a 9th level slot will lose the wizard a lot MORE then 6 points of augmenting as far as power goes.
1) Wizard's spell slots don't have diminishing returns, they have quite the opposite. A magic missile at caster level 1 does 1d4+1 damage, and at level 9+ does 5d4+4 damage, its absolute impact relative to its cost increases as level increases, unlike a psion's single power point, which as you stated has a fixed impact throughout his career, what I think you mean to say is the impact relative to his expected opposition decreases. This is true in some cases, most notably direct damage (which is why I've stated many times that its not a good career choice for a wizard or a psion to focus on direct damage), but not so much in others. Many mid level spells like haste, black tentacles, enervation, and so on have profound impact on high level combats without a change in their spell slots. Just because the same tactics that work at low levels don't always translate to higher levels doesn't mean that the wizard is not as capable at high levels, it merely means he must change his approach, something he can do very easily, unlike a psion, who to compensate has been given a system that allows his tactics to attain a measure of scalability to remain viable (though I would not say optimal in most cases) throughout his career.
1. Auto Scaling doesn't let the wizard step up for impact, it make his lower level spells more efficient. By the time a spells reaches his cap, it is often a waste of a round, and once it starts going beyond that cap, its more and more of a waste of those precious standard actions. Impact isn't about Impact vs Resources used, its Impact vs TIME used. The only time resources step into things is with your super nova example. From the lens of impact, auto scaling is crap compared to augmentation, thanks to the Hard Caps most arcane spells have.
2. Psions also have mid level spells that are plenty viable and many of them do not require augmentation to use. Take Grease for example. Also note, that Psions get extra PP to counter the assumption there gonna be using augmenting. Thus, a psion doing the same thing (using low level, static powers) use LESS of his over all resources then a wizard does. For example, a 5th level wizard and 5th level psion, A grease for the wizard is still a 1st level slot, a still moderately important resource at this level. A grease for a Psion is 1 pp out of a base of 25. Not even noticeable. ALSO, notice, that most of the spells you pointed out, while the more powerful and versatile of there level, are still highly circumstantial compare to higher level spells. Only in very certain circumstances will the spells you pointed out do as much as higher level spells. Thus, Higher still means Stronger.
2) Wizards do have the chance to use their extra stamina, they merely have to know how to do it (I'm tempted to do a sequel to my psionic nova thread for arcane spells, since no one seems to know how to nova with a wizard).
Note, that neither my example wizard or example psions are "Novaing" in any sense other then casting the most powerful effect available to then each round. I am not saying the psion has higher thresholds of novaing, honestly, i don't care, I don't nova. My point, is with most psions and most wizards, the psions gonna do more per round. I'm not saying one class can be twinked more then the other (I guess I should say "Optimized." What is the polite term for that?). And honestly, even if the wizard can be broken more then the psion, that doesn't really negate anything I'm saying, I'm comparing the classes in the backdrop I'm (and hopefully most) people see them in, and that’s being played casually. The occasional clever combo, but nothing CO material.
3) I've already proven (and you granted me the point) that in the course of a day a psion has less power than a wizard, I went into considerable depth on the subject, saying his has the same amount of power is blatantly incorrect, even by your own admission.
If I were to list the proper number of rounds in an optimized case in earnest, it would be 1 round for both the psion and the wizard, and the damage totals would both decrease slightly. As it stands time stop followed by 2-5 delayed blast fireballs is a pretty simple example of why 1 round: 1 spell simply doesn't apply to high level combats.
1. I gave you that if a day went that long, then yes, the wizard would have more per round impact, because the wizard is still casting his 1-4th level spells when the psions out. Again, Impact says that things will never get that point, and if it does, that is a SEVERE exception, not a rule. Impact says that in the average day, of 3-5 encounters, a spellcaster isn’t gonna have to worry about his spells per day. I guess I should admit your point anyway, if you converted ALL the wizards spells into damage it would be more then converting ALL the psions PP to damage. But if you notice, my argument actually goes out of its way to point out that it doesn't matter.
2. That’s not a slight drop, the wizard will most likely not be able to do that more then once, and certainly not twice a day. So, two rounds of super time stop powers, then he’s blown half his 9th and all his 8th level spells. That’s a big drop. Also, the psion doesn't drop at all, that’s the point. He can keep throwing out his strongest effect, round after round, consistently, until he doesn't have the PP to do it anymore. The WIZARD drops, the psion doesn't. Also, even if your right about the one spell, one round thing, the psion has the same fast casting tools as the wizard, minus the rod of quickening. Also, as far as impact per round goes, again, psions reap more from quicken then wizards do, 4 slots meaning a lot less then 6 pp, even counting the lost augmenting.
I'm not going to stand on the versatility point because its very subjective. A psion with energy ray and a wizard with scorching ray running across some angry fire elementals is a good example of where the psion's versatility trumps. A telepath who relies on dominate and a wizard who likes to use dominate person/monster enter a long stretch of a campaign where they will fight primarily undead is a good example of where the wizard's versatility trumps.
I think you severely over-estimate the scope of psionic material out right now if you think that it will be a circular argument. Your base point is still flawed in exactly the way I pointed out the first time, it incorrectly assumes power level parity in spells and powers.
Most of those are good points, indeed, the wizards does have much more material out there and the examples you pointed out are good examples of when a wizard’s flexibility trumps a psions. I guess the best way to put it, is that the wizard has superior day to day versatility, but the psion have more versatility in the scope of a single day. Indeed, he often has more options available per day then the average SORCERER, due to powers mimicking higher level spells through augmentation, sheer powers known, sorcerers having to learn higher level version of the same spells (charm, etc). I do not believe that in core, the wizards spells are any more powerful then a psions powers on a spell level to spell level basis. Of course there are exceptions on each side, each have exceptional spells, but mostly, I honestly believe that a psion casting his strongest effect is gonna be mostly on par with the wizard strongest effect...well, except gate. Really, its Gate.
I finally got around to doing a full post on DisposableHero_ comments, sorry it took so long. I honestly feel kinda good, not because I feel I made a major triumph for my side, but simply because I once again feel that people can disagree and be civil.
I do have one question though. Since I'm wrong, according to a majority of people, do I get a "fallacy"? Come on, I want one, at least it will make me famous if nothing else. I can't make my own and name it after myself! that’s a bit egomaniacal (No offence intended Tempest, I actually like your fallacy.) When do I get one? Please?
Oh, I also wanted this time to address something. I do not dislike psionics. In fact, just the opposite, I like it quite a bit, whenever I feel like a change from the norm, I open up the groups XPH. Psions, Wilders, Soulknifes, Psychic Warriors, love them all. My "problem" with psionics, is honestly, I think that its easier to us, and as a consequence, more often stronger then arcane is. The Magical hierarchy goes Divine, Psionic, Arcane to me, though I know psionic and arcane is switched for many. I have seen many impressive wizard builds, which leads me to believe that perhaps wizard is the most twinkable class in the game, but like I said, I'm at best clever.
Still, Arcane is my favorite school of magic, and I am regularly shown up by my psionic nut friend. Neither of us are really going amazingly out of our way, psionics are just plain easier to make good. I personally would like arcane to be more like psionics, like I said, the REAL point of all this, isn't that psionics is better, its that the Point system is better then the slot system, I just happen to think that its so much better that the wizards big advantage, the largest spell list in the game, isn't enough to counter it, especially since the psionics list is nothing to laugh at either.
So, as a quick disclaimer, I do not ban psionics, do not encourage people to ban psionics, or alter psionics to "balance them". Indeed, I would be quite distressed if my DM did any of the above things. If you’re going to change something, I vote change arcane, preferably to a point system.
Here is my rant. I am an avid fan of psionics, and if I play in a campaign where they are a viable class I play them. Psionics are by no means overpowered. Let’s compare shall we?
20th level a Psion has 320+ Power Points. His versatility comes from the fact that he can use nothing but 9th level powers which are augmented. He doesn't have to spend feats to learn most augmentations, and only has to spend Power Points to do so. He is only limited by his Power Points and Power Point Limits.
20th level Wizard has the equivalent of 400+ Spell Points. He does not have to pay to enhance his spells effectiveness. However he is limited by the number of high powered spells he can use, and must spend feats to learn special effects to enhance his magic.
I'm not sure how that supposed to make things balanced. After reading that it sounds like your just making my argument that psionics are overpowered for me. Also your wrong with wizards needing to pay to enhance spell effectiveness, they also still cost higher slots except they need to spend a feat for the privilege. Also there is the more basic core issue. level based casting vs point based casting.
The ability to swap out 9 1st level spells/powers for one 9th level spell/power is pretty freakin huge. So you could look at it this way:
320 pp vs 400 sp that’s 35 ninth level power manifestations plus a couple smaller ones vs 2 THAT's TWO "2") 9th level spells and a ton of smaller spells. That's why Psions Always win and why it's broken, it all boils down to point based vs level based. if Psionics were level based I don’t think there would be an issue.
I want to take up Disposable Hero's argument but I want to show what the impact per round for a caster specialized in damage looks like. The advantage of the Wizard/Sorc is that damage scaling is on their side. Psions are limited by their power points first and foremost and using metapsionic powers simply drains their points available more quickly.
Here is the level 20 Sorcerer build using the PHB, PHB II, Complete Arcane and Races of the Dragon:
Human Sorcerer 20
-Metamagic Specialist from PHBII (replaces having a familiar and allows Sorcs to apply metamagics without increasing casting times)
Charisma 30 (15 base, +5 from levels, +6 from Item, +4 tome)
Daily Spells: 6/9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7
1. Draconic Heritage
1. Empower Spell
3. Quicken Spell
6. Twin Spell
9. Energy Substitution [Acid]
12. Arcane Thesis (Scorching Ray)
15. Practical Metamagic (Quicken)
18. Practical Metamagic (Twin)
Spell Levels
2nd Scorching Ray 12d6
3rd Empowered Scorching Ray 18d6
4th Twinned Scorching Ray 24d6
5th Empowered Twinned Scorching Ray 30d6
6th Empowered Twinned Scorching Ray 30d6
7th Quickened Empowered Twinned Scorching Ray 30d6
8th Quickened Empowered Twinned Scorching Ray 30d6
9th Quickened Empowered Twinned Scorching Ray 30d6
Spells per Round
1. 5th and 9th =60d6
2. 5th and 9th =60d6
3. 5th and 9th =60d6
4. 5th and 9th =60d6
5. 5th and 9th =60d6
6. 5th and 9th =60d6
7. 5th and 9th =60d6
8. 5th and 8th =60d6
9. 6th and 8th =60d6
10. 6th and 8th =60d6
11. 6th and 8th =60d6
12. 6th and 8th =60d6
13. 6th and 8th =60d6
14. 6th and 8th =60d6
15. 6th and 7th =60d6
16. 6th and 7th =60d6
17. 7th and 7th =60d6
18. 4th and 7th =54d6
19. 4th and 7th =54d6
20. 4th and 7th =54d6
20 rounds of combat = 1182d6; 4137 Average Damage
This damage can be either Fire or Acid
A wilder could squeeze out a couple more dice of damage using wild surges with metamagics but I don't believe they could top the 1182 dice of damage.
While the above "impact" is single target only, a similar build could be done using the Wizard class, Archmage PrC, and either the Easy Metamagic feat from Dragon magazine or the Incantrix PrC. This combination becomes even more versatile because you can aoe with any energy type and not effect allies for the cost of one 5th level and one 8th level spell.
My point is that I don't think you can simply look at the mechanic of the spells and powers to dictate the damage potential but we must instead look at the impact of available feats (and possible PrCs) when determining balance. Currently there are only 2 official sources that are dedicated primarily to psionics (Expanded Psionics Hbk and Complete Psionic) and there are a handful of world resources that have a small amount of extra powers or feats while there are copious amounts of resources to enhance and augment the magic system.
I believe if you look at the big picture, the two systems are balanced.
Very nice post and probably a typical PC for many combat oriented campaigns. Seriously after 20 - 30 D6 or D8 energy damage attacks each round it's almost always who wins initiative first who kills the other party.
All Feats are basically devoted to improving combat spellcasting expertise with nothing devoted to the noncombat aspect of the PC's campaign life but I don't see Improved Initiative which seems to be a staple of surviving high le PCs. No Feats devoted to crafting magical items and specializing as a magical artisan to reduce costs further.
For a Twist spend some of that PC gold let a sorcerer or wizard do some original Spell Research and get a Freebie +1 Meta to a commonly known spell like a Wu Jen.
One indicator the psion class and the psionic warrior need to be handicapped by the artificial game mechanical constraints limiting powers by class or discipline and then allowing the PC to take an off limits power by expanding a feat. Akin as posted earlier of only allowing Evokers to take Magic Missile and Fireball. Illusionist's to take Invis or Greater Invis and so forth without spending a feat.
I particularly like Energy Missile because of it's level basically a much improved magic missile. Med range 100' plus 10' a level, Fort or Reflex for Half, PR - Yes, PP 3+ 3D6 Dam plus can be augmented +1D6 Dam and +1DC per extra PP. It does cold, electric, fire or sonic damage as desired by the caster to up to 5 targets or objects no two of which can be more than 15' a part.
Since Magic Missile and Not Improved Magic Missile is generally a staple of many sorcerers or wizards that everyone is familiar with. The spell damage ramps up and maximizes at 5 missiles dealing 1D4 +1 Damage individually on up to 5 targets or 5D4 + 5 HP in total to a single target normally at CL9+ with No Save but SR-Yes. The level 20 sorcerer or wizard gets very little for casting this spell in a high level spell slot it is capped by a CL9+ not which spell slot is used to cast it without meta feat augmentations (It's a little tougher to save depending on which level is used).
But the level 20 psion can simply augment his power by spending power points up to his or her level making a low level power an effective high level power with 20 PP at level 20 the psion increases the base power to 20D6 with a +17 Save DC the sorcerer or wizard gets 1d4+1 per target or 5D4 +5 to a single target.
How are all the NPC magic items saving taking these kind of attack damages saving to enrich the PCs?
I don't understand why Meta Rods are so common in campaigns when they take a CL17+ according to my DMG particularly with standard campaign demographics they are very rare particularly in ECS and so few posted PCs appear able to craft their own magical items.
Just a few thoughts.
I believe that Psionics are overpowered because of Autohypnosis, Psionic Body, and Energy Missile.
Autohypnosis = No problem with stabilization.
Psionic Body = Much too much HP for a caster class, in my opinion.
Energy Missile = 2nd level power, d6+1 damage per point to multiple targets, no save, minimum points spent 3.
Also, Psions have a very large amount of utility powers as well. If Wizards have an advantage here, it's not a very large one.
That said, I like Psions, and with an intelligent DM, they are easily balanced.
Autohypnosis is a pretty cool skill. I think that the monk should have it as a class skill. Still, your problem with it is stabilization? I can’t figure out for the life of me why this would be a problem, except that you have to spend skill points to get the benefit! No one likes to bleed out and while it can provide a certain amount of suspense I suppose I have never had any problem with various abilities which get rid of the check entirely. Anyone could pay a couple of skill points in it to gain the benefit (which hurts low skill classes, but then what skill doesn’t?). I guess I was just wondering, why is this a problem in your eyes?
Psionic body: potentially a good amount of hp up front, lacking in the hp later on, plus it adds restrictions on what sort of feats you can pick up while still gaining the benefit (there really just aren’t that many psionic feats, 41 I believe and many synergize poorly or flat out work against one another). Compare it with improved toughness sometime for overall effect (assuming of course that you don’t have a problem with improved toughness or con boosting items for caster types as well).
Energy missile: it does indeed have a save, it only hits very close together targets, it is targeted, and it only does d6+1 while using cold or fire (very common resists/immunities). Oh, and it is specialist only so it typically takes people a feat to get it, not a low cost there!
1. As many people already noted, at this point, damage spells are mostly a waste of a round, and these are the only spells that really do any super noticeable free scaling for the wizard that the psion has to augment for.
While I am sure someone will go through more in depth I just wanted to make a little comment in passing. Since direct damage dealing is one of the few ways psionics is actually better than wizards, and for wizards it is a waste of a round at some point, I really just have no idea why people complain about psionics actually being able to take advantage of a normally poor field of interest.
Oh, and as for some of the rest, I find it odd that casters/manifesters in some peoples games never use any of their 'lesser' abilities for anything.
Popping a mage armor on several people in the party has always seemed like a good idea to me at higher levels and while it is sometimes a waste there are classes who get a decent benefit out of it and if we suddenly come across an incorporeal guy we are that much better off overall.
Endure elements? Great spell in a lot of cases. Mount at earlier levels and phantom steed later on? Incredible spells! No need to buy food for the mount or be too worried about it being killed, just make a new one (there are other less 'good' uses but the above seems fine as a baseline). Alterself for some pretty hefty bonuses in combat or interesting disguises out of it. Barkskin is a decent duration buff for the party as well.
I could just go on and on. There are 'tons' of low level spells which get used all of the time without infringing on the higher level slots. For the psionic character however every lower level manifestation cuts into the amount of his 'highest' ones that people seem to have issues with. For the psionic guy 'every single manifestation' is a depletion of power and can cause him issues. It is a constant issue on his mind about when and where to spend points.
I just don’t see the same being true for casters in general. Popping off the low level spells is barely even thought of after a certain point.
It seems to me that people are often very willing to ignore such issues in their arguments which I find very odd indeed. Especially as it plays directly into this 'warlock principle' for this thread.
I guess to me it comes down to seeming strange that the caster types have so many benefits over the manifesters that the few ways the manifesters might actually be ahead sometimes come under 'major' fire. If we were to change those ways that the psionics can be ahead to make them not ahead then they would literally be worse in every way. What would be the point of that?
Longer than I had planned, but still somewhat important ;)
Arcanes are dead easy to make into insane power-nukers. I suspect that you've merely stumbled into more Psionic type novas and are thus more familiar with them, but as you can now see, this is a local phenomenon, a misconception held up by more familiarity with Psionic powers than with Arcane ones.
1. As many people already noted, at this point, damage spells are mostly a waste of a round, and these are the only spells that really do any super noticeable free scaling for the wizard that the psion has to augment for.
Not really. Nearly all spells have scaling properties, if only range. Comparable instakill spells for Wizards that don't scale are matched by powers that don't augment on the Psion's side (or aren't really that good when augmented). You can't always deal with the problem using your highest level power, because you only have a limited number of those, and they're fairly specific in application. You invariably have to use a lower level power of some kind, and unaugmented powers are usually inferior to lower level spells of the same level.
2. Even if I give you that his 9th level spells are more powerful, Is it more powerful then his 8th? His 7th? His 6th? Because when the wizard is down to 5th level spells, the psion is using his last 9th level power.
Yes, actually. As mentioned above, the Psion and the Wizard often have to use lower level spells and powers to deal with particular threats, because their main high level effect is only useful for a particular subset of threats. A 5th level power, augmented to 20 PP often is only marginally better than a 5th level spell, if that. In some cases, the 5th level spell is better.
3. I haven’t really seen much that tells me a 9th level spell is more powerful then a 9th level power. Most effects a wizard can do, I can find something about as strong...well, except maybe Gate. Mostly though, I can do something that has around the same impact, indeed, many times, it will almost directly mimic the wizards spell. And for each spell that the wizard can do and the psion can't, I find one the psion can do that the wizard can't.
Actually try to make a Psion. Psionic powers are only equivalent when you include all the discipline powers. You don't actually have access to all those powers when you're a Psion. That would be like saying that the Sorcerer is powerful because he can cast any spell the Wizard can. Theoretically he can, but we all know that his Spells Known limitation actually makes him fairly limited in terms of strategic flexibility.
For example, if you choose to make a Telepath (probably the most powerful Psion type), you gain access to extremely, even insanely, good domination type effects. However, get this:
No construct repair, no Minor Creation, No "Summon," No Fabricate
No Clairvoyance, No Nondetection
No Levitate (!), No Fly (!!!!!), No Teleport (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), No Ethereal Jaunt, No Banishment
No Energy Missile, No Energy Cone (!), No Energy Ball (!!!!!!!!), No Null Psionic Field
No Animal Affinity, No Metamorphosis (!!!), No Psionic Revivify
These are not small things. These are not small limitations. There are more, of course, but these are truly major and crippling losses. Even a Specialist Wizard doesn't need to deal with all these losses. I mean sure, you could be stupid and bar Transmutation and Conjuration (and who in the heck does that?) but you'd at least still be able to Fireball.
Take a closer, closer look at the Psion/Wilder powers list. DO NOT look at the Discipline powers. You only get one "school" so you can't compare Psions on the basis of those lists. Compare that list to even the Core Sorcerer/Wizard list. Big holes exist. Can you truly stomach a Psion that doesn't know how to Dominate or Charm? Well, you'd have to think about that because only Telepaths get those powers. If you choose to be a Telepath, say bye bye to movement and mass damage energy effects, to say nothing of powerful defensive and utilitarian magic.
Want an Egoist? Well, what do you have to say to the Dominate and Charm Person spells, then? Nothing, that's what.
A Wizard can contain all these powers in every single character, and more besides! The same Wizard can Teleport, then Fireball, then Dominate, then Fly around or Shapechange into what's necessary. A single Psion is unable to do this.
This is a major limitation you seem to overlook.
1. I'm not going by twinked, because honestly, I don't twink. I at best, min/max. Arcane might have higher thresholds of twinking, I personally think that the psion is easier to do it with. Its basically already gift wrapped, arcane you at least have to THINK. Everyone I play with plays classes casually, they sometimes try to be clever, but I have never had a player in my group do anything as sick as the things you describe. Arcane being able to be twinked harder doesn't negate anything, it just means it has more loop holes to exploit.
Nope. I answered that as well. It's easier to twink arcanes because they come pre-twinked. Simply select a reasonable spread of powers and feats and you'll more than compete with a carefully considered Psion build. Most arcanes simply pick Empower and Maximize with damage related spells. Not that strong, but the auto-scaling spells plus metamagic easily allows them to exceed the usual damage caps, without expending much more than what a Psion needs to just to keep up with autoscaling. On top of that, they're free to choose a spread of powerful spells that Psions happily give up feats for just to emulate.
On all levels of "twinkage," Arcanes power up better and last longer, on a better list. The Psion's sole stock in trade is his flexibility - he can upscale his lower level manifestations, and his generous spread of augmentable powers and spontaneous manifesting make him exceed the Sorcerer in this function.
2. Impact also assumes you have the stamina to last a day. Nova to hard, and you run out. My point about psionics is they can not only "nova", but they have the stamina to do so consistently without fear of stamina issues unless the DM feels like pulling a fast one. And I GUARENTEE you, that if the psions out of PP, the wizard in the same party is down to 4th level spells, LESS if he’s been trying to out do the psion, and he’s sweating just as much.
You can't guarantee us, Kuraito, because we know better. We've seen better. As I illustrated on the Psionics board, Arcanes hit harder and they last longer. Not "or last longer," "AND last longer."
An Arcane can nova with greater effect and do so for longer than the Psion can. The reason why you can't grasp this fundamental truth is because you insist on tracking PPs and spell slots. Big mistake.
Keeping end-effects in mind, an Arcane can hit just as hard or harder than a Psion can, and keep at this pace longer. In fact, he can hit harder and last longer while he's doing it.
I wanted to, could manage to blow around half of my PP in a round "without trying" (quicken, Temporal Acceleration). Quickening actually favors the Psion fyi, because 4 slots are a hell of a lot more precious to a wizard then 6 points are to a psion. Though granted, that is 6 less points of augmentation, but a 5th level spell taking up a 9th level slot will lose the wizard a lot MORE then 6 points of augmenting as far as power goes.
That a Psion can exhaust himself in one round isn't a power, it's a weakness! This is because a Wizard can match him effect for effect, and still have much more left over. Again, the problem is that you insist on getting hung up on power points. Stop doing it. Concentrate on effect.
Getting Quicken and Temporal Acceleration represents a significant devotion to nova power, because you'll hardly ever use either ability except to nova. In the same vein, getting Quicken Spell and Celerity or Time Stop is also a significant dedication to nova. In neither case is there truly "no effort."
Quickening powers is NOT favorable to the Psion because it expends more resources than the Wizard. Do not forget that the Psion also has to expend Psionic Focus to use Quicken. If he doesn't have Focus for some reason, or if he's already expended it, he can't Quicken.
A 5th level spell taking up a 9th level slot is still going to benefit from auto-augmentation, or could still be drawn from a pool of powers that that particular Psion simply has no access to. And it doesn't require Focus. The Wizard loses little to no points on augmentation, because his spells augment whether or not you apply Quicken Spell. If you present a power deployment scheme incorporating Quicken Power, I can show you where a Wizard can be more advantageous using Quicken Spell.
1. Auto Scaling doesn't let the wizard step up for impact, it make his lower level spells more efficient. By the time a spells reaches his cap, it is often a waste of a round, and once it starts going beyond that cap, its more and more of a waste of those precious standard actions. Impact isn't about Impact vs Resources used, its Impact vs TIME used. The only time resources step into things is with your super nova example. From the lens of impact, auto scaling is crap compared to augmentation, thanks to the Hard Caps most arcane spells have.
All right. I'll bite. Scorching Ray has an 11th level cap, dealing 12d6 damage in 3 rays at that level, as a ranged touch attack. In order to maximize Impact, the Wizard uses a Will save spell against a Brute type attacker, and the Scorching Ray against a spellcaster-type attacker.
1st round: Dominate Person
2nd round: Empowered Scorching Ray 18d6 fire damage
Using two powers and one metapsionic feat, equalize using no more than 16 PPs. You must use a Telepath in order to be able to take the Dominate power, or you may expend the feat to take Expanded Knowledge.
PS. Don't insinuate that dealing 63 average points of fire damage at level 11 is not worth an action. A CR 12 NPC Wizard only has 44 hitpoints. A CR 8 Mindflayer only has 44 hitpoints as well. A CR 10 Rakshasa only has 52.
PPS. Yes, the individual CRs are below 11. Multiple target challenges have to have individual creatures at below CR in order to generate the right CR in aggregate.
2. Psions also have mid level spells that are plenty viable and many of them do not require augmentation to use. Take Grease for example. Also note, that Psions get extra PP to counter the assumption there gonna be using augmenting. Thus, a psion doing the same thing (using low level, static powers) use LESS of his over all resources then a wizard does. For example, a 5th level wizard and 5th level psion, A grease for the wizard is still a 1st level slot, a still moderately important resource at this level. A grease for a Psion is 1 pp out of a base of 25. Not even noticeable. ALSO, notice, that most of the spells you pointed out, while the more powerful and versatile of there level, are still highly circumstantial compare to higher level spells. Only in very certain circumstances will the spells you pointed out do as much as higher level spells. Thus, Higher still means Stronger.
Using 1 power point to manifest Grease is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. You don't manifest all your powers as discrete and fully augmented powers all the time. It's just plain stupid, or at least grossly inefficient.
Thus, a 5th level Psion is rarely, if ever, going to be called upon to manifest Psionic Blast 6 times in succession. He can, but the fact that he can isn't very significant.
More likely, he'll be called upon to manifest maybe 4 or 5 first level powers (5 PP) with no or minimal augmentation, 2-4 first level powers of moderate augmentation, (12 PP) or second level powers, and 2 or 3 third level powers or first/second level powers with maximum augmentation (15PP)
In contrast, a Wizard always has maximum augmentation on all his spells, whenever they can be. Sure, he can't Fireball 6 times in a row, but he'll rarely be called upon to do that anyway. More likely, he'll be called upon to Grease or Enlarge or Shocking Grasp and so on and so forth. The fact that he can't manifest his highest level spells multiply is countered by the fact that ALL (not just 2 or 3) of his lower level spells are maximally augmented. And of course, he can call upon a mix of powers Psions simply can't do singly.
Just as I said, the Wizard gets more Impact per round (maximally augmented powers all the time, when applicable) and lasts just as long or longer.
My point, is with most psions and most wizards, the psions gonna do more per round.
We understand your point. We also understand how you can come to this erroneous conclusion. Psions can spend a greater fraction of their daily allotment per round more easily. That's a given. They can simply maximally augment each time. However, this doesn't mean that they actually do more. They just spend more. In most cases, the Impact is exactly the same, or so close that it doesn't really matter.
Consider the above example. Let's make it simpler. No Empower. Just two spells.
1st round: 5th level kill spell
2nd round: 12d6 damage spell
Overall cost: 1 5th level slot, 1 2nd level slot. Significant, but easily absorbed. Easily repeatable several times by the Wizard, with power to spare.
For the Psion:
1st round: 5th level kill power
2nd round: 11d6 damage power (Energy Ray)
Overall cost: 20 power points. An 11th level Psion only has 133 power points. That's 18% of his power blown away in just that round, just to equalize. It seems more in isolation, because you're spending so much of your daily allotment, but in perspective, it's only par!
An 11th level Specialist Wizard has a 5/7/6/6/5/4/2 progression. That means he can do this (or something expending similar resources) 3 more times today. Doing do would leave him with 5/7/2/6/5/0/2. His 6th level slots aren't even expended yet, and his autoaugmenting lower level spells below 5th are practically fully loaded.
In contrast, a Psion who does this (or expends something like it) 4 times will have only 53 power points left. Barely enough to manifest 4 effects featuring his highest level power or fully augmented powers. If he scrimps on augmentation, he'll have to augment less (less impact) or tackle the problem some other manner (also less impact, since we're assuming this is the optimum way to proceed).
It doesn't matter if he expends his PP faster or slower, in a one round blast or in ten. The Wizard's deployment methods are similarly adept or better, and because of the Wizard's resource advantage, he simply wins any battle of attrition. The Arcanes just have more Impact, for longer, period.
What he doesn't have is flexibility, and that's the Psion's forte. The Psion doesn't need as much resources as the Wizard or the Sorcerer because he can hit where it hurts and hit it hard. Still, for all his on-the-go flexibility, there are some things individual Psions simply can't do and that just balances out. For example, Telepaths are royally screwed against undead. Their most powerful powers are useless, and most of the other powers on the general list are just plain mediocre, no matter how you manage them or how fast you deploy them.
Indeed, as I said, overall, I would put Psions just a tad less powerful than even the Sorcerer, because they simply don't have staying power. If they ration their powers, they're not that powerful, and if they nova, they're useless afterwards. The Sorcerer doesn't need to ration anything, and the Psion's nova could very well be just his normal rate of deployment, given his generous firepower.
I'm not sure how that supposed to make things balanced. After reading that it sounds like your just making my argument that psionics are overpowered for me. Also your wrong with wizards needing to pay to enhance spell effectiveness, they also still cost higher slots except they need to spend a feat for the privilege. Also there is the more basic core issue. level based casting vs point based casting.
The ability to swap out 9 1st level spells/powers for one 9th level spell/power is pretty freakin huge. So you could look at it this way:
320 pp vs 400 sp that’s 35 ninth level power manifestations plus a couple smaller ones vs 2 THAT's TWO "2") 9th level spells and a ton of smaller spells. That's why Psions Always win and why it's broken, it all boils down to point based vs level based. if Psionics were level based I don’t think there would be an issue.
I'm sorry, are you aware that a 9th level power costs 17 times as much as a 1st level power? Just making sure.
Consider UA and the Spell Points per day Table 5-3 A level 20 Wizard got 232 points so you would think a Specialist Wizard would get 278 points and a Sorcerer would get 348 since they can cast 150% of the daily spells of a standard wizard but Specialist don't get extra points and sorcerers only get 249 PP. A 17 PP game mechanic spread refutes that argument IMO.
UA didn't do this correctly, at all. Let's look at this without taking into account auto scaling (the arcane casters BIG advantage) and 0th level spells (something that costs psions the same as a 1st level power).
Level Sorcerer MP Psion PP Wizard MP
1 3 2 1
2 4 6 2
3 5 11 5
4 15 17 9
5 18 25 14
6 36 35 22
7 44 46 30
8 70 58 42
9 82 72 54
10 116 88 70
11 132 106 86
12 174 126 106
13 194 147 126
14 244 170 150
15 268 195 174
16 326 221 202
17 354 250 219
18 420 280 251
19 452 311 281
20 486 343 313
Okay, it isn't formatted nicely or anything, but I never learned how to do it. I also did all the slot conversions by hand, so mistakes are possible. I didn't calculate in bonus slots or power-points (sorry).
However, it appears that the wizard stays roughly one level behind the psion as far as actual magical umph, but he has day to day flexibility and a spell book (where time, money, and resources or xp is the only limiting factors to learning new spells).
Sorcerers have raw power, over 140 pp (thats 7 fully augmented powers at 20th level) more than the psion. He also has a stagnant list of magic (spells or powers as appropriate).
Looking at it this way, without the autoscaling and 'talent' cost, may help one see how much power is actually stored in those spell slots. I did these conversions because I wanted to know.
Personally, I would rate Arcane spells the most powerful, then Psionics, then Divine. Clerics are as powerful as they are because their powerful spells enhance their non-spell related attributes. If you mount Divine spells on a Mage chassis, it might still be playable, but probably just barely.
Actually, they do have that, it's called a Cloistered Cleric. Weaker then cleric? Totally. Weaker then wizard? No way. I happen to be playing one currently.
Arcanes are dead easy to make into insane power-nukers. I suspect that you've merely stumbled into more Psionic type novas and are thus more familiar with them, but as you can now see, this is a local phenomenon, a misconception held up by more familiarity with Psionic powers than with Arcane ones.
I don't really see it. Arcane is my favorite school of magic, I use it often. Very often. I've played wizards and sorcerers beside psions often. Very, Very quickly, I'm reduced to a trouble shooter and a poor one at that. As a wizard I go, "Offensive spell!" Then go "uh...offensive spell of a lower level!" With the prep system, many slots will be taken up by utility, buff and other non killy spells. At this point, if there’s a psion around, why would you bother to prep those spells at all anymore? Even if a wizard could be optimized to nuke his heart out, he’s just lost what made him a wizard in the first place, his flexibility, he is now officially a one trick pony. Everyone keeps saying "Arcane can do everything psionics can and can do it easier!" Well, a psion can be an offensive machine of death and not lose one drop of there flexibility. Wizard can't, they don't have enough spell slots. If they want to out do the psion in offensive, if it is indeed possible as you so rigorously claim, the cost is steep.
Not really. Nearly all spells have scaling properties, if only range. Comparable instakill spells for Wizards that don't scale are matched by powers that don't augment on the Psion's side (or aren't really that good when augmented). You can't always deal with the problem using your highest level power, because you only have a limited number of those, and they're fairly specific in application. You invariably have to use a lower level power of some kind, and unaugmented powers are usually inferior to lower level spells of the same level.
Things like range and duration auto scale for psionics, too. The things augment is used most often for is 1. Increase damage, 2. Increase DC, 3. Change a spell to affect more or different types of creatures. Augmentation often does two of these at once. The only one of these arcane gets for free is damage and in return all there damage spells have strict damage cap to them, making them less desirable to learn and prepare as they have very little "Shelf Life". You seem to claim that a psions higher level spell isn't always gonna solve the problem. I dunno, if the problem happens to be killing, I think it’s gonna solve the "Problem" pretty dang well. Wizard using lower level spell in combat is a complete joke, they don't do it because it will do more, they do it because they HAVE TO. Psions have no such limitation.
Yes, actually. As mentioned above, the Psion and the Wizard often have to use lower level spells and powers to deal with particular threats, because their main high level effect is only useful for a particular subset of threats. A 5th level power, augmented to 20 PP often is only marginally better than a 5th level spell, if that. In some cases, the 5th level spell is better.
One of the strengths of higher level spells if that they will do more to more things. Not that they just give you more options against certain things. Higher level spells will almost always be more effective then lower level spells except for very, very specific circumstances. Using a lower level spell to the effect of a higher level one is an EXCEPTION and if there’s more then 2 spells between them, a rather rare one. It is most certainly not the rule.
Actually try to make a Psion. Psionic powers are only equivalent when you include all the discipline powers. You don't actually have access to all those powers when you're a Psion. That would be like saying that the Sorcerer is powerful because he can cast any spell the Wizard can. Theoretically he can, but we all know that his Spells Known limitation actually makes him fairly limited in terms of strategic flexibility.
I've actually played quite a few psions (and wilders) and what I found was that unlike playing a wizard or even a sorcerer, I never, EVER had any problems what so ever being one of the most potent threats on the battlefield. Even conserving PP and using Grease and Ectoplasmic Net, I was someone to be feared and these were exceptions. Our group does the standard 3-5 encounters a day and the only time I was reduced to using Grease and Ectoplasmic Net was in a day where we had 7(SEVEN!) encounters. I'm not making guess work comparisons. I've seen this issue from both the Psionic and the Arcane side and I have seen nothing to support the claims many people make on what keeps psionics "Balanced", ESPECIALLY the "Oh, psions are easy to over extend with" line. Moving on to your other point, if you notice I've pointed out before that I'm trying very hard to limit myself to the core psion list. However, if that is what is expected of me, I expect you to not be specialist wizards. Why do you get the benefits of specializing but I don't? If I can't count discipline powers, you don't get to count the extra spells from specializing.
For example, if you choose to make a Telepath (probably the most powerful Psion type), you gain access to extremely, even insanely, good domination type effects. However, get this:
No construct repair, no Minor Creation, No "Summon," No Fabricate
No Clairvoyance, No Nondetection
No Levitate (!), No Fly (!!!!!), No Teleport (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), No Ethereal Jaunt, No Banishment
No Energy Missile, No Energy Cone (!), No Energy Ball (!!!!!!!!), No Null Psionic Field
No Animal Affinity, No Metamorphosis (!!!), No Psionic Revivify
These are not small things. These are not small limitations. There are more, of course, but these are truly major and crippling losses. Even a Specialist Wizard doesn't need to deal with all these losses. I mean sure, you could be stupid and bar Transmutation and Conjuration (and who in the heck does that?) but you'd at least still be able to Fireball.
What did you lose that was actually worth while?
Construct repair--I hope this isn't an issue, I really, really do.
Minor creation--you get Major Creation on the base list, this "Major Loss" is really not even on the radar.
No summon--well its a good thing Wizard summons SUCKS then, but seriously, this is one of the more popular spells to use Expanded Knowledge with, because its one of the few worth the feat.
No fabricate--What are you gonna do, build people to death? YOU PSION, YOU KILL! Seriously though, this is not even an issue. If I have a character and I go "Aw SNAP, I wish I had Fabricate" and I'm not kidding, something is very, very wrong.
No clairvoyance--Divination is the on the base list, as is quite a few other spells from the divination school (aura sight, correspond, detect remote viewing). Not being a specialist in this talent means you’re about as good as a wizard who likewise didn't specialize. In fact, you could be better as Divination is a spell wizard don't get and is one of the better divination spells. If you do specialize in this area, no one, not arcane or divine can touch you. You can gleam info they wouldn't even know was there.
No nondetection--Uh, mind blank?
No levitate--On the base list as personal only. Not being able to cast it on others is not a big loss.
No fly. First off, what is it with everyone "needing" this spell? When you first get it, you have much more important things to use your third level slot for and by the time you can cast it without much problem, the people who really need it are gonna have an item that already does it. Using fly in situation in which you have to have it is ludicrous, since you only effect one person a casting and you only get it for 1 min/level, so one combat or to get past one obstacle. Secondly, yes, no specialists don't get fly. Guess they have to do with levitate and fly. Oh, I can't make my allies fly like an arcanist can? I dearly hope that I don't have to.
No teleport--Greater Teleport is on the base psion list. Next!
No ethereal jaunt--ethrealness?
No banishment--Well, I must admit, you got me.
No mimic on the base psion list. Honestly? I'm not going to miss it. The cleric should be the one casting this in the first place, not the arcanist.
No energy "blank", boy, that takes a big chunk out of your offensive power, doesn't it? Actually, no not really. Kinisicts get the most EFFECIENT energy spells, but non kienisicst can still out blast everyone elseone else.
No Null Psionics Feild, One of the only powers worth expanded knowledging and one of the few draws of the Kiniciest other then fun factor.
No animal affinity, Uh, I ain't crying over this one, sorry. Its nice perk for being a shaper, its not a must have. Especially since you arn't going to be crafting any gloves of dex or the like.
No metamorphasis, I lose polymorph!? Thats...not really a big deal. Really, its polymorph. Wow.
No Psionic Revivify. So I lose something the wizard won't get ANYWAY, but I can atleast still expanded knowledge it. Sure, I'm up for that.
If that was the worst of the stuff you "lose" that you can come up with...I rest my case.
Take a closer, closer look at the Psion/Wilder powers list. DO NOT look at the Discipline powers. You only get one "school" so you can't compare Psions on the basis of those lists. Compare that list to even the Core Sorcerer/Wizard list. Big holes exist. Can you truly stomach a Psion that doesn't know how to Dominate or Charm? Well, you'd have to think about that because only Telepaths get those powers. If you choose to be a Telepath, say bye bye to movement and mass damage energy effects, to say nothing of powerful defensive and utilitarian magic.
Want an Egoist? Well, what do you have to say to the Dominate and Charm Person spells, then? Nothing, that's what.
A Wizard can contain all these powers in every single character, and more besides! The same Wizard can Teleport, then Fireball, then Dominate, then Fly around or Shapechange into what's necessary. A single Psion is unable to do this.
This is a major limitation you seem to overlook.
Said wizard is only gonna be able to do each around once a day. Wizards are kings of versatility, but they do not and can not match the sheer offensive power psionics can bring to the table. The depth of options a wizard gets is his big strength and the reason I "ignore" it is because it doesn't make him a superior combat caster. It makes him a superior PROBLEM SOLVER. You have a door to get by, a chasm to cross, a place to teleport to, the wizards the better choice. You got something you need killed? You need a psion.
Nope. I answered that as well. It's easier to twink arcanes because they come pre-twinked. Simply select a reasonable spread of powers and feats and you'll more than compete with a carefully considered Psion build. Most arcanes simply pick Empower and Maximize with damage related spells. Not that strong, but the auto-scaling spells plus metamagic easily allows them to exceed the usual damage caps, without expending much more than what a Psion needs to just to keep up with autoscaling. On top of that, they're free to choose a spread of powerful spells that Psions happily give up feats for just to emulate.
On all levels of "twinkage," Arcanes power up better and last longer, on a better list. The Psion's sole stock in trade is his flexibility - he can upscale his lower level manifestations, and his generous spread of augmentable powers and spontaneous manifesting make him exceed the Sorcerer in this function.
Uh...objection! Assumes facts not in evidence. What point did you point this out pretty well? Because, I missed it. Your making alot of claims, but your not really giving me anything to chew on. I'm sorry, but this entire quote is all sizzle and no steak. Back it up, don't just give me the end result, give me the WHY. WHY is this true? What is it about wizards that makes this true? What makes the "it" in the question above what "it" is? These are all questions I've gone out of my way to answer for my position. Its easy to just say "this is how this works". When getting outshown by the psion for the 15th time I could have just labled psionics broken and ignored it completly. No, I decided to ask "Why?" while cracking open an XPH some years ago and that question is what this thread was born from. I can't even argue with these points because theres no basis for them, its all speculation. You kinda start to make a point, but then you just kinda trail off. If the wizards spell list is the only basis for truth of your claims...I think its time for me to move to closing.
You can't guarantee us, Kuraito, because we know better. We've seen better. As I illustrated on the Psionics board, Arcanes hit harder and they last longer. Not "or last longer," "AND last longer."
An Arcane can nova with greater effect and do so for longer than the Psion can. The reason why you can't grasp this fundamental truth is because you insist on tracking PPs and spell slots. Big mistake.
Keeping end-effects in mind, an Arcane can hit just as hard or harder than a Psion can, and keep at this pace longer. In fact, he can hit harder and last longer while he's doing it.
See previous paragraph. Also, if you think I'm being harsh, what happens to people who go to the psionic boards and say psionics are broken and don't have a "why" that satisfies? If I said the same things your saying, the same way your saying them only switching arcane and psionics, I'd get flamed to death in an instant. Back it up man, I am.
That a Psion can exhaust himself in one round isn't a power, it's a weakness! This is because a Wizard can match him effect for effect, and still have much more left over. Again, the problem is that you insist on getting hung up on power points. Stop doing it. Concentrate on effect.
Getting Quicken and Temporal Acceleration represents a significant devotion to nova power, because you'll hardly ever use either ability except to nova. In the same vein, getting Quicken Spell and Celerity or Time Stop is also a significant dedication to nova. In neither case is there truly "no effort."
Quickening powers is NOT favorable to the Psion because it expends more resources than the Wizard. Do not forget that the Psion also has to expend Psionic Focus to use Quicken. If he doesn't have Focus for some reason, or if he's already expended it, he can't Quicken.
A 5th level spell taking up a 9th level slot is still going to benefit from auto-augmentation, or could still be drawn from a pool of powers that that particular Psion simply has no access to. And it doesn't require Focus. The Wizard loses little to no points on augmentation, because his spells augment whether or not you apply Quicken Spell. If you present a power deployment scheme incorporating Quicken Power, I can show you where a Wizard can be more advantageous using Quicken Spell.
I'm not stating effect because, hey, call me funny, but I still go by "A higher level spell is more powerful then a lower level one". I find it EXTREMELY hard to beleive that this rule just, disappears when psionics comes walking along. Technically, you should be the only stating effect, since the things I'm claiming are still reasonably considered fact until proven otherwise. Go ahead, cast a spell as a wizard that I, as a psion, could not match. As for quicken, I still say quicken is superior for psions. Wizard have to pay more, alot more and have to decide before hand. Psions get to choose on the fly and pay less. The Focus drawback is something people keep screaming about, but its not really that big a deal. Its a renewable resource and even with it limiting me, I can still cast two spells round (Quicken, move to regain focus, power as standard), something the wizard cannot effeciently do. Casting a scorching ray as a 6th level spell, well, thats about as far from effecient as you can get compare to 6 power points and a focus. And once again, psion get to do it on the fly. I'm sorry, I'm finding quicken, indeed, most metamagic, just quicken inparticular to be better for Psions.
All right. I'll bite. Scorching Ray has an 11th level cap, dealing 12d6 damage in 3 rays at that level, as a ranged touch attack. In order to maximize Impact, the Wizard uses a Will save spell against a Brute type attacker, and the Scorching Ray against a spellcaster-type attacker.
1st round: Dominate Person
2nd round: Empowered Scorching Ray 18d6 fire damage
Using two powers and one metapsionic feat, equalize using no more than 16 PPs. You must use a Telepath in order to be able to take the Dominate power, or you may expend the feat to take Expanded Knowledge.
PS. Don't insinuate that dealing 63 average points of fire damage at level 11 is not worth an action. A CR 12 NPC Wizard only has 44 hitpoints. A CR 8 Mindflayer only has 44 hitpoints as well. A CR 10 Rakshasa only has 52.
PPS. Yes, the individual CRs are below 11. Multiple target challenges have to have individual creatures at below CR in order to generate the right CR in aggregate.
People seem to love scorching ray. I again return to the fact that scorching ray, while it has a high damage output, will often have less of an impact then a comparable energy "blank" especially as the energy power will probably effect more people. While yes, the psion will pay significantly more for this, scorching ray is a freak power, not the standard and even THEN, the psion can still pay this cost easily. And hey, don't look at me like the "damage is crap" thing was all my idea. I'm just dancing to the tune people sing. I personally like direct damage and think it can be useful, but debuffs and insta kills are indeed usually more powerful. Also, I might be along in this, but personally I'd just use an Orb spell. Lose 3d6, but I think it'd be an all and all better use of a 4th level slot. This is a prime example of how metamagic is inferior for wizards, as the spell slots they pay will usually at best make the spell on par with a spell of its new found level. This is not true for the point system with psions. Oh, and thanks for pointing out that things like dominate are perfect candidates for being quickened with psions, as they lose no augmentation.
Using 1 power point to manifest Grease is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. You don't manifest all your powers as discrete and fully augmented powers all the time. It's just plain stupid, or at least grossly inefficient.
Thus, a 5th level Psion is rarely, if ever, going to be called upon to manifest Psionic Blast 6 times in succession. He can, but the fact that he can isn't very significant.
Um....HUH?
More likely, he'll be called upon to manifest maybe 4 or 5 first level powers (5 PP) with no or minimal augmentation, 2-4 first level powers of moderate augmentation, (12 PP) or second level powers, and 2 or 3 third level powers or first/second level powers with maximum augmentation (15PP)
Sure. If said psion wanted to give up his big advantage, like the wizard preparing all damage spells from earlier in this thread. A psion doing what you have just pointed out had best be staring down around SEVEN encounters for that day, otherwise there is no reason to do that. Said psion will be better off turning his enemys into smoking holes in the ground, or loyal servents or a pile of dust or otherwise making his enemys not enemys anymore. Not called upon to do it? Not Effecient? I dunno, I think killing your enemys as quickly as possible is a model for effeciency and as I keep coming back to, not only can psions do this, but they can do it with out much concern for stamina (see my previous post for the Why).
In contrast, a Wizard always has maximum augmentation on all his spells, whenever they can be. Sure, he can't Fireball 6 times in a row, but he'll rarely be called upon to do that anyway. More likely, he'll be called upon to Grease or Enlarge or Shocking Grasp and so on and so forth. The fact that he can't manifest his highest level spells multiply is countered by the fact that ALL (not just 2 or 3) of his lower level spells are maximally augmented. And of course, he can call upon a mix of powers Psions simply can't do singly.
Just as I said, the Wizard gets more Impact per round (maximally augmented powers all the time, when applicable) and lasts just as long or longer.
That doesn't make much sense either. "Wizards can't cast higher level spells as often, but thats ok, they don't have to. Oh, btw, they match a psions impact". Auto scaling doesn't let a wizard match a psions impact, i keep coming back to this, auto scaling does not, can not, will not, make a lower level spell the equal of a higher level one. If augmenting doesn't do it (according to many here), then auto scaling sure doesn't. So, higher still means more power, which means more impact, which means psions have superior impact.
We understand your point. We also understand how you can come to this erroneous conclusion. Psions can spend a greater fraction of their daily allotment per round more easily. That's a given. They can simply maximally augment each time. However, this doesn't mean that they actually do more. They just spend more. In most cases, the Impact is exactly the same, or so close that it doesn't really matter.
Consider the above example. Let's make it simpler. No Empower. Just two spells.
1st round: 5th level kill spell
2nd round: 12d6 damage spell
Overall cost: 1 5th level slot, 1 2nd level slot. Significant, but easily absorbed. Easily repeatable several times by the Wizard, with power to spare.
For the Psion:
1st round: 5th level kill power
2nd round: 11d6 damage power (Energy Ray)
Overall cost: 20 power points. An 11th level Psion only has 133 power points. That's 18% of his power blown away in just that round, just to equalize. It seems more in isolation, because you're spending so much of your daily allotment, but in perspective, it's only par!
An 11th level Specialist Wizard has a 5/7/6/6/5/4/2 progression. That means he can do this (or something expending similar resources) 3 more times today. Doing do would leave him with 5/7/2/6/5/0/2. His 6th level slots aren't even expended yet, and his autoaugmenting lower level spells below 5th are practically fully loaded.
In contrast, a Psion who does this (or expends something like it) 4 times will have only 53 power points left. Barely enough to manifest 4 effects featuring his highest level power or fully augmented powers. If he scrimps on augmentation, he'll have to augment less (less impact) or tackle the problem some other manner (also less impact, since we're assuming this is the optimum way to proceed).
It doesn't matter if he expends his PP faster or slower, in a one round blast or in ten. The Wizard's deployment methods are similarly adept or better, and because of the Wizard's resource advantage, he simply wins any battle of attrition. The Arcanes just have more Impact, for longer, period.
What he doesn't have is flexibility, and that's the Psion's forte. The Psion doesn't need as much resources as the Wizard or the Sorcerer because he can hit where it hurts and hit it hard. Still, for all his on-the-go flexibility, there are some things individual Psions simply can't do and that just balances out. For example, Telepaths are royally screwed against undead. Their most powerful powers are useless, and most of the other powers on the general list are just plain mediocre, no matter how you manage them or how fast you deploy them.
Indeed, as I said, overall, I would put Psions just a tad less powerful than even the Sorcerer, because they simply don't have staying power. If they ration their powers, they're not that powerful, and if they nova, they're useless afterwards. The Sorcerer doesn't need to ration anything, and the Psion's nova could very well be just his normal rate of deployment, given his generous firepower
Honestly, at this point I have a rather large headache, so I'm not going to disect this with much effecincy. In fact, I don't think I have to, nothing in your post offered anything to counter any of my claims. Also,I have to go and I'm not able to edit post. Maybe I'll get back to this, but I really don't think I have to.
As a wizard I go, "Offensive spell!" Then go "uh...offensive spell of a lower level!" With the prep system, many slots will be taken up by utility, buff and other non killy spells. At this point, if there’s a psion around, why would you bother to prep those spells at all anymore? Even if a wizard could be optimized to nuke his heart out, he’s just lost what made him a wizard in the first place, his flexibility, he is now officially a one trick pony. Everyone keeps saying "Arcane can do everything psionics can and can do it easier!" Well, a psion can be an offensive machine of death and not lose one drop of there flexibility. Wizard can't, they don't have enough spell slots. If they want to out do the psion in offensive, if it is indeed possible as you so rigorously claim, the cost is steep.
You don't seem to be playing your Wizard effectively, then. Offensive powers for Wizards, should they choose to major in them, are a major kill factor, and they lose no part of their utility powers because they can (and usually do) imbue their utility spells in scrolls and other such paraphernalia.
The best way to realize the comparison is to actually make a Psion build and compare it to a Wizard build of the same level.
You seem to claim that a psions higher level spell isn't always gonna solve the problem. I dunno, if the problem happens to be killing, I think it’s gonna solve the "Problem" pretty dang well. Wizard using lower level spell in combat is a complete joke, they don't do it because it will do more, they do it because they HAVE TO. Psions have no such limitation.
This is an important part of your "more PP per round = better" misrepresentation. Psions cannot target anything and everything with their best powers, simply because even the most flexible powers only do one thing. If the target isn't vulnerable to it, or for some reason the power isn't suitable, then you shouldn't use it. In all likelihood, the Wizard has a lower level or equivalent level power of suitable use.
One of the strengths of higher level spells if that they will do more to more things. Not that they just give you more options against certain things. Higher level spells will almost always be more effective then lower level spells except for very, very specific circumstances. Using a lower level spell to the effect of a higher level one is an EXCEPTION and if there’s more then 2 spells between them, a rather rare one. It is most certainly not the rule.
Spell, yes, power, no. Do not confuse the two. There is limited equivalency between spells and powers, especially when you start considering augmentation and auto-augmentation.
I've actually played quite a few psions (and wilders) and what I found was that unlike playing a wizard or even a sorcerer, I never, EVER had any problems what so ever being one of the most potent threats on the battlefield.
Shrug. Your experience against mine. I had no problem being a threat being either a Wizard OR a Psion. They do not leverage threat management the same way, so it goes without saying that if you're trying to play the Wizard or Sorcerer like a Psion, you're going to be rather less effective.
Moving on to your other point, if you notice I've pointed out before that I'm trying very hard to limit myself to the core psion list. However, if that is what is expected of me, I expect you to not be specialist wizards. Why do you get the benefits of specializing but I don't? If I can't count discipline powers, you don't get to count the extra spells from specializing.
You can't use just the core list, (AND YOU HAVEN'T) because you'll suck. You'll have more manifestations per level, but your overall efficacy will just plain suck. Thus, to make the comparison fairer, the Wizard should also be saddled with a similar limitation - he must be a Specialist.
Your assessment of losing powers just about equals why I think you're having this problem. It's not that you can't see why Psions are as weak as Wizards, you simply can't use Wizard powers to maximum potential!
Construct Repair - This is occasionally an issue. Not being able to access it is still weaker than being able to.
Minor Creation - lower level spell means you use lower level slots. Psions need to use Major Creation, using both a higher level slot and a higher level PP.
No Summon - You're crazy if you think Wizard summons sucks. Wizard summons are phenomenal. Psion Astral Constructs have nothing on them. From beatdown to spell effect use, Wizard summons are where it's at. Expanded summons lists are just gravy.
Fabricate can be used to manage battlefields before or after confrontation, bypass (and thereby defeat) entire encounters, and so on. It's a great spell.
Clairvoyance, Remote Viewing - Sorry, but I can't view the loss of these powers as anything other than a total disaster. Playing Cleric with Divination is a cute trick, but the knowledge you gain from Clairvoyance and Remote Viewing is simply on a whole 'nother level. If you aren't these Clairvoyance and Scrying as a Wizard, then I'll believe you when you say you're not pulling your weight.
Nondetection - Extremely useful for not getting nailed by enemy divinations. Mindblank is like what, 8th level? You'll only use that for less than half your career if you even get to 15th level, and you'll use a buttload of PP every time you do it. Nondetection is a big loss, but again, I won't hold it against you for underestimating Wizards if you don't use this.
Levitate - half the uses of this spell are on other people and things. The spell would be nowhere near as potent if it were self-only. Indeed, the Psionic equivalent is.
Fly - you don't have to make your allies fly, but it's a huge help when you have the option to do so. Fly is a huge spell because it allows you to maneuver freely around the battlefield and even outright defeat certain classes of opponents. No spell that can defeat entire encounters can be underestimated. Indeed, there are whole sections of DM advice warning DMs about the power of this spell. Psionic Levitate is nowhere near the power of this spell.
Teleport - Yes, Psions have Greater Teleport as an 8th level spell. That means most Psions don't get to Teleport until 15th level (and only if they choose Greater Psionic Teleport). While the Psion is burning 15 PPs a shot just to get people around, the Wizard can do much the same with a 5th level spell, and he's been doing so for 6 levels since.
Lower spell slot, much the same effect. Your insistence that higher level powers are greater than lower level spells simply doesn't work.
Thinking that the presence of a similar power at the 8th level Psion list makes the advantage of Wizards moot underscores why you can't appreciate how Wizards are just as powerful as Psions are.
No Energy Powers - name me the damage-based area effect powers that are on the core list. Almost every single one of them is inferior. Energy Bolt comes closest, but it just can't cover the same area and function as an Energy Ball. Sometimes, it's effectively even a single target spell.
You can't outblast an Arcane without using Kineticist powers, and even then you'll only come close to the potential an Arcane can unleash.
Null Psionics Field - important defect of the core list. No using Expanded Knowledge - that takes additional resources other than the core list.
Animal Affinity - Arcane boosts can target Int, which can improve save DCs by +2 at lower levels - an important advantage. You haven't being using those, I think?
Polymorph, Not a Big Deal?!?!? Polymorph is one of the most problematic spells in 3.5e and half of the problem is that it's WAY, WAY, WAY too powerful for its level. You want 21 Strength? Done. You want +11 natural armor? Done. Your underestimation of some of the most powerful spells in 3.5e leaves me no doubt that you simply haven't been using Wizards effectively.
Psionic Revivify - Actually, Wizards can access restoration magic rather freely through Limited Wish. I'm only outlining what you've been assuming all Psions have. These powers are on Discipline lists so some Psions have them, but at the cost of other powers. If you really want to compare what you lose when you're not using the Arcane list...
Well, I think that this little tangent leaves little room for doubt - Wizards ARE less powerful when you're playing them. That doesn't mean that it's generally true, of course.
Said wizard is only gonna be able to do each around once a day. Wizards are kings of versatility, but they do not and can not match the sheer offensive power psionics can bring to the table. The depth of options a wizard gets is his big strength and the reason I "ignore" it is because it doesn't make him a superior combat caster. It makes him a superior PROBLEM SOLVER. You have a door to get by, a chasm to cross, a place to teleport to, the wizards the better choice. You got something you need killed? You need a psion.
You misunderstand the situation. If all you're facing or putting up (as a DM) is the same targets again and again and again, then yes, the Wizard's plethora of offensive options seems somewhat superfluous. Offensive flexibility and versatility is one of the key factors of an effective attack caster, IMO, and that is where Psions are only a smidgen over Sorcerers.
The depth of offensive powers, from save targetting to area targetting, to effect targetting - that's one of the key strengths of an offensive Wizard. To a Wizard, combat itself is a problem, and he [i]is[i/] the superior problem solver. A Psion can simply pummel the enemy with high level effect after high level effect. For that matter, so can a Sorcerer. A Wizard can acheive the same result using less resources, because he brings the right kind of firepower on the table.
Uh...objection! Assumes facts not in evidence. What point did you point this out pretty well? Because, I missed it. Your making alot of claims, but your not really giving me anything to chew on.
I discussed the meat of this assertion on the Psionics board on your thread, which I had hoped you read. In every case of practical Impact discussion, the Wizard or the Sorcerer (take your pick) either comes out reasonably equivalent or much farther ahead. Please refer to your Psionics thread.
I'm not stating effect because, hey, call me funny, but I still go by "A higher level spell is more powerful then a lower level one". I find it EXTREMELY hard to beleive that this rule just, disappears when psionics comes walking along.
A higher level spell is more powerful than a lower level one.
A higher level power is more powerful than a lower level one.
A higher level power (or a power manifested at a higher augmentation) is not necessarily more powerful than a lower level spell.
You're making the mistake of assuming equivalency in the worth of spell slots and power points.
The Focus drawback is something people keep screaming about, but its not really that big a deal. Its a renewable resource and even with it limiting me, I can still cast two spells round (Quicken, move to regain focus, power as standard), something the wizard cannot efficiently do.
Wizards can do so. Refer to your previous thread and DisposableHero's Nova thread. Wizards can deploy their spell slots just as well, if not better, as Psions can deploy their PPs, and they do it faster, with easier and more obvious options.
You do not know these things, so you think they don't exist. They do.
Casting a scorching ray as a 6th level spell, well, thats about as far from effecient as you can get compare to 6 power points and a focus.
Effect, Kuraito. Focus on EFFECT. A Scorching Ray fired off as a 6th level spell does 12d6 damage. An Energy Ray fired off with Quicken Power would only do 5d6. That's 11 ML cap (for 6th level effects), 6 PP for the Quicken, and then 5 remaining PP for augmentation and manifestation.
Cost for Arcane: 6th level slot
Cost for Psion: 11 PP and move action
Effect for Arcane: 12d6 in 3 rays as a Swift Action
Effect for Psion: 5d6 in 1 ray as a Swift Action
Now you spoke of flexibility in terms of manifesting powers. I also tackled this in the Psionics thread, but in short, I said that Impact does not depend on flexibility. A well played Wizard should be able to level just as much firepower, if not more, than an equivalently well-played Psion. If you want to discuss spontaneity, then for purposes of equivalency, the Sorcerer should be your comparison.
People seem to love scorching ray. I again return to the fact that scorching ray, while it has a high damage output, will often have less of an impact then a comparable energy "blank" especially as the energy power will probably effect more people. While yes, the psion will pay significantly more for this, scorching ray is a freak power, not the standard and even THEN, the psion can still pay this cost easily.
Facts, Kuraito, not assertions. Wizards and Sorcerers can level this firepower at any speed they wish to, using less comparable resources than the Psion. Thus, they can "nova" at the same intensity, for longer. The Psion can pay the cost (as indeed he must), but his longevity in the face of a similar intensity Arcane Nova is significantly less. It doesn't matter that Sorching Ray is freakish or not. Indeed, it's probably on the high level of power for 2nd level spells, but not the worst Arcane offender by far.
It's there, so Arcanes can take it. That's all there is to it.
I personally like direct damage and think it can be useful, but debuffs and insta kills are indeed usually more powerful. Also, I might be along in this, but personally I'd just use an Orb spell. Lose 3d6, but I think it'd be an all and all better use of a 4th level slot. This is a prime example of how metamagic is inferior for wizards, as the spell slots they pay will usually at best make the spell on par with a spell of its new found level. This is not true for the point system with psions. Oh, and thanks for pointing out that things like dominate are perfect candidates for being quickened with psions, as they lose no augmentation.
You can use the Orb spell, but that would entail actually taking the Orb spell and even then you lose damage. Metamagic makes the new spell on par with a spell of the equivalent level, but that does not mean that it's on par with a power of the equivalent level. Notice how you can't equal the damage output of an Empowered Scorching Ray without using ridiculous amounts of resources.
And that's positively simple deployment strategy.
An Empowered Scorching Ray does the equivalent of 18d6 damage for a 4th level slot. An Orb spell at level 11 will only do 11d6. Lose 6d6, right there, and Orb spells target saves, not touch AC. This makes the Orb spells altogether different in targeting profile from an Empowered Scorching Ray. Using the right spell for the job entails little details of this nature. I would use the Orb spells, but not for damage alone, and not in targeting high hp low touch AC single targets.
Also Dominate actually augments. You're probably better off augmenting the Dominate rather than Quickening it.
Long story short, I employed a simple deployment example of Arcane Impact, and you cannot equal it using similar resources.
Said psion will be better off turning his enemys into smoking holes in the ground, or loyal servants or a pile of dust or otherwise making his enemys not enemys anymore. Not called upon to do it? Not Efficient? I dunno, I think killing your enemys as quickly as possible is a model for efficiency and as I keep coming back to, not only can psions do this, but they can do it with out much concern for stamina
Don't talk the talk. Do the do. Show me a deployment method for a particular level of Psion. Say level 7, since you say that level 5 Psions have enough to last the day. Show me a threat deployment for a level 7 Psion for 4 encounters and I will show you a more a series of more powerful threats from a level 7 Arcane.
Let's say 5 rounds per encounter.
You can assess the alacrity of threat deployment once the threats are on the table. Indeed, no one will need to, as they will speak for themselves.
That doesn't make much sense either. "Wizards can't cast higher level spells as often, but thats ok, they don't have to. Oh, btw, they match a psions impact". Auto scaling doesn't let a wizard match a psions impact, i keep coming back to this, auto scaling does not, can not, will not, make a lower level spell the equal of a higher level one. If augmenting doesn't do it (according to many here), then auto scaling sure doesn't. So, higher still means more power, which means more impact, which means psions have superior impact.
They're not the same. Powers are not the same as Spells. Autoscaling (as shown conclusively with Scorching Ray, but also true for a variety of effects) does, in fact, make lower level spells more than the equal of even augmented powers.
Augmenting doesn't make a power as powerful as a higher level power, but autoscaling for spells does, in fact, make them more powerful than augmented or higher level powers. This still doesn't make them as powerful as higher level spells.
Focus on Effect.
Even non-scaling Arcane powers can be remarkably strong. Take Web. Show me a core Psion power that matches that, and then tell me what level and what augmentation is necessary for it.
Heck, even Stinking Cloud and Invisibility are pretty hard to match, let alone more powerful Arcane spells. What about Magic Missile? This absolutely common spell can be used as a Readied Action. As an autohit damage effect, it can force enemy spellcasters to roll Concentration against a DC + up to 17-18. And it's a 1st level spell. You got something to match that from the Psion/Wilder list? What level and at what augmentation? You can try to match with Concussion Blast, but the PP expenditure will be prohibitive (and the ML cap will usually make it rather unfair, actually).
This is common. It's not even hard to pull stuff like this out of a Wizard's hat. Psions need to think just to simulate, and they don't even come as equal, particularly at the same resources.
Take a level 7 Wizard. He Magic Missiles an enemy caster casting a spell to force a Concentration check at an average of +14 to the DC, using a level 1 spell slot to do so. Can a Psion do the same? Yes, with Concussion Blast, he can deal an average of 10 damage (for +10 to the DC) using 9 PP to do so (4th level spell slot).
Better effect for the Wizard, less resources. More Arcane Impact, less Resources.
Take note: lower level spell, higher Impact.
I think you're having a headache because what I'm saying is beginning to make sense.
I don't really see it. Arcane is my favorite school of magic, I use it often. Very often. I've played wizards and sorcerers beside psions often. Very, Very quickly, I'm reduced to a trouble shooter and a poor one at that. As a wizard I go, "Offensive spell!" Then go "uh...offensive spell of a lower level!" With the prep system, many slots will be taken up by utility, buff and other non killy spells. At this point, if there’s a psion around, why would you bother to prep those spells at all anymore? Even if a wizard could be optimized to nuke his heart out, he’s just lost what made him a wizard in the first place, his flexibility, he is now officially a one trick pony. Everyone keeps saying "Arcane can do everything psionics can and can do it easier!" Well, a psion can be an offensive machine of death and not lose one drop of there flexibility. Wizard can't, they don't have enough spell slots. If they want to out do the psion in offensive, if it is indeed possible as you so rigorously claim, the cost is steep.
How do psions not lose flexibility? If I go telepath I'm useless as a blaster, can't do anything to move the party, can't summon astral constructs or anything like that without burning through feats, feats which are much needed might I add. Yes, a psion has more flexibility with what they can throw, like a sorcerer does, but their limited list of powers means that they lack what a wizard has, versatile selection. If I go telepath almost all of my powers are going to be mind control ones, I'll probably have a few defensive powers as well but I'll have no blasting power or anything like that unless I use feats to gain them. Your problem is that you keep assuming that Psions get all the powers from all the disciplines for free, they don't. What you're doing right now is an apples to oranges comparison.
Things like range and duration auto scale for psionics, too. The things augment is used most often for is 1. Increase damage, 2. Increase DC, 3. Change a spell to affect more or different types of creatures. Augmentation often does two of these at once. The only one of these arcane gets for free is damage and in return all there damage spells have strict damage cap to them, making them less desirable to learn and prepare as they have very little "Shelf Life". You seem to claim that a psions higher level spell isn't always gonna solve the problem. I dunno, if the problem happens to be killing, I think it’s gonna solve the "Problem" pretty dang well. Wizard using lower level spell in combat is a complete joke, they don't do it because it will do more, they do it because they HAVE TO. Psions have no such limitation
One of the strengths of higher level spells if that they will do more to more things. Not that they just give you more options against certain things. Higher level spells will almost always be more effective then lower level spells except for very, very specific circumstances. Using a lower level spell to the effect of a higher level one is an EXCEPTION and if there’s more then 2 spells between them, a rather rare one. It is most certainly not the rule.
Yes, however your comparisons are, once again, apples to oranges. A higher level spell has multiple features and abilities usually, sometimes it is just more dice or something like that but in many cases it has more capabilities and is harder to save against. A psion, if they amplify their power, cannot get multiple things from the same amp. If I decide to amp damage I don't get an improved DC or any of that. If I just amp DC I don't get more damage, I have to mix the two which divides power points. Comparing costs you end up roughly equal to powers of the same level. Psions cannot scale freely, if they want their powers to be effective they have to slam power points in, a wizard gets their extra magic missiles no matter what level the spell is prepared at. Additional rays come no matter what level the spell is prepared at, psions have to pay for each of those modifications.
I've actually played quite a few psions (and wilders) and what I found was that unlike playing a wizard or even a sorcerer, I never, EVER had any problems what so ever being one of the most potent threats on the battlefield. Even conserving PP and using Grease and Ectoplasmic Net, I was someone to be feared and these were exceptions. Our group does the standard 3-5 encounters a day and the only time I was reduced to using Grease and Ectoplasmic Net was in a day where we had 7(SEVEN!) encounters. I'm not making guess work comparisons. I've seen this issue from both the Psionic and the Arcane side and I have seen nothing to support the claims many people make on what keeps psionics "Balanced", ESPECIALLY the "Oh, psions are easy to over extend with" line. Moving on to your other point, if you notice I've pointed out before that I'm trying very hard to limit myself to the core psion list. However, if that is what is expected of me, I expect you to not be specialist wizards. Why do you get the benefits of specializing but I don't? If I can't count discipline powers, you don't get to count the extra spells from specializing.
Again, apples to oranges comparisons, this is why a lot of people have trouble taking your arguments seriously. Discipline powers can be used, fine, but they are different than specialization. I don't need to specialize just to gain specific spells if I'm a wizard. The point people were making is that I can't get all the discipline powers, the really good powers, without dumping a lot of feats. I've also played a psion and yes, if you have support in a group then you don't go through everything. But if you just have 4 people then you do tend to burn through faster. I could argue that wizards are overpowered because in a group of 6 if there is a second wizard both of them can do a lot more with a lot more oomph.
Said wizard is only gonna be able to do each around once a day. Wizards are kings of versatility, but they do not and can not match the sheer offensive power psionics can bring to the table. The depth of options a wizard gets is his big strength and the reason I "ignore" it is because it doesn't make him a superior combat caster. It makes him a superior PROBLEM SOLVER. You have a door to get by, a chasm to cross, a place to teleport to, the wizards the better choice. You got something you need killed? You need a psion.
Not really, a wizard with properly chosen spells can destroy anything they just shift the toolkit slightly. Psions look stronger on their own, put them in a group and it looks different, a wizard in a group can do more things more effectively than a psion can simply because of the plethora of options. If all you're going to argue is damage then all the 'save or die' or status spells mean nothing to you and obviously you've made your mind up already and refuse to let invonvenient facts change your mind.
Uh...objection! Assumes facts not in evidence. What point did you point this out pretty well? Because, I missed it. Your making alot of claims, but your not really giving me anything to chew on. I'm sorry, but this entire quote is all sizzle and no steak. Back it up, don't just give me the end result, give me the WHY. WHY is this true? What is it about wizards that makes this true? What makes the "it" in the question above what "it" is? These are all questions I've gone out of my way to answer for my position. Its easy to just say "this is how this works". When getting outshown by the psion for the 15th time I could have just labled psionics broken and ignored it completly. No, I decided to ask "Why?" while cracking open an XPH some years ago and that question is what this thread was born from. I can't even argue with these points because theres no basis for them, its all speculation. You kinda start to make a point, but then you just kinda trail off. If the wizards spell list is the only basis for truth of your claims...I think its time for me to move to closing.
The reason that arcane is easier to break than psionics comes from several factors. One is that magic is more entrenched in core, thus there are more feats and tactics for it available. Also, the plethora of spells allow for greater specialization and modification than psionic powers do. The fact that a wizard can learn literally any spell, and a sorcerer can swap out spells as they level, means a lot when a psion is effectively stuck with what they choose without using psychic reformation. Also, a psion without spending feats is stuck at a limit of powers. With one feat from complete Arcane I can effectively double the number of spells my wizard gains each level BEFORE factoring in purchasing and trading for more. Also, as mentioned before arcane scales for free and with certain metamagic feats can be far more effective. I'd also point this out, a wizard can change their role day to day they can be a boomstick, troubleshooter, transporter, battlefield control specialist, information gatherer, etc. depending totally on their spell selection. A psion is more or less hemmed in at the beginning based completely on what they chose as their initial focus.
I'm not stating effect because, hey, call me funny, but I still go by "A higher level spell is more powerful then a lower level one". I find it EXTREMELY hard to beleive that this rule just, disappears when psionics comes walking along. Technically, you should be the only stating effect, since the things I'm claiming are still reasonably considered fact until proven otherwise. Go ahead, cast a spell as a wizard that I, as a psion, could not match. As for quicken, I still say quicken is superior for psions. Wizard have to pay more, alot more and have to decide before hand. Psions get to choose on the fly and pay less. The Focus drawback is something people keep screaming about, but its not really that big a deal. Its a renewable resource and even with it limiting me, I can still cast two spells round (Quicken, move to regain focus, power as standard), something the wizard cannot effeciently do. Casting a scorching ray as a 6th level spell, well, thats about as far from effecient as you can get compare to 6 power points and a focus. And once again, psion get to do it on the fly. I'm sorry, I'm finding quicken, indeed, most metamagic, just quicken inparticular to be better for Psions.
Except most wizards factor in what they figure will need to be quickened before they prep. I tend towards wizards and I usually have them quicken summoning spells with the plan of tossing as many of the little bastards as I can at my opponents. Psions can toss quickened powers off, but it does greatly affect combat dynamics. According to your psion build in these arguments, I'm dumping all my feats to get all the big powers, and to be able to focus properly and turn it into a move action rather than a full round one. This also means that I had better have a lot of good defenses up because by the time I can do this regularly if I'm in battles appropriate for my CR rating then what I'm going to have to deal with is attacks, mobs, targeting, and all the other things that a regular mage has to deal with when facing an enemy with a working brain. Doing this means that I literally have no other uses, I cannot make psionic items, I have to follow this path completely now because I literally have no other option. Also I am guaranteed the support of a standard arcane and divine caster, if I have all of that then yes, I can nova and do things like that with no fear because I will have additional support around me.
That doesn't make much sense either. "Wizards can't cast higher level spells as often, but thats ok, they don't have to. Oh, btw, they match a psions impact". Auto scaling doesn't let a wizard match a psions impact, I keep coming back to this, auto scaling does not, can not, will not, make a lower level spell the equal of a higher level one. If augmenting doesn't do it (according to many here), then auto scaling sure doesn't. So, higher still means more power, which means more impact, which means psions have superior impact.
This is poor reasoning; you're saying nothing here other than that if you're wrong then everyone else is wrong too. The problem is this, in order to properly augment a low level power you have to throw a lot of power points behind it, which ups the power, or the DC, or something else happens but that's about it. To put it in laymen’s terms, if I dump pp into a power to up the dice of damage, enough so that it matches the base cost of a power 2 levels higher, the damage dice is all that rises, the save DCs, the range, the duration, none of that is changed unless I state that I am enhancing those instead of putting it all into the damage area. Spells automatically get at least some abilities enhanced for free. Metamagic feats can allow you augment the spell by upping the level, except that you actually get more out of those augmentations compared to what you would normally get from an equal psionic power with the same 'level' of augmentation. As the augmentation also raises the DC of the spell because of its new level in addition to whatever it had normally. And lets not forget that there is a theoretically infinite number of things you can add through metamagic, especially with new feats that are available now.
Honestly, at this point I have a rather large headache, so I'm not going to dissect this with much efficiency. In fact, I don't think I have to, nothing in your post offered anything to counter any of my claims. Also, I have to go and I'm not able to edit post. Maybe I'll get back to this, but I really don't think I have to.
So far you haven't given us much to work with either. You've said that your psion has done these amazing things but I want to know what the battles were like. Were they appropriate to the groups CR rating, how many party members were there and what were the classes. Were there any houserules that need to be taken into account? Also, how do your combats work, by what you've said so far I'm inclined to think that most combats are fairly straightforward "You hit them, they hit you, everything more or less standing still..." maybe that's not the case but it seems like it.
Also, this is a key, one that I'll try to explain by analogy. Imagine the various forms of magic as tools, Arcane and Divine magic are actually entire tool chests. They have multiple tools; some that can even hook together to make new and better tools. Arcane tool chests have some things that are better than divine tool chests and vice versa.
Now we go to psionics, psionics are more like 1 tool. A telepath is the best damn hammer you'll ever find, but all that they can be is a hammer. Their power selection is focused on being that hammer, so are their feats, they can't be a screwdriver, they can't be a wrench, if they try they end up all over the place in terms of powers and lack a focus. Whereas a wizard or cleric can be a hammer one day, a wrench another, a screwdriver another day, or some combination thereof. That hammer might hit harder but all it can do is hammer, if we run into a situation where a hammer isn't very useful or is useless period then the hammer sits there trying to be something else while the rest of the group properly contributes.
The ability to nova, or twink, as you refer to it, is not a step function. It is not Nova/Not Nova it is a scale by which you gauge the rate of deployment of your daily resources. How that occurs varies quite a bit character to character, but in effect even a non-twinked character using quicken spell novas a little. If you have 15 rounds of combat in day (that’s generous I know) and you use your 15 most powerful spells or 15 fully augment powers, sure a psion may come out ahead in his fields of specialty. But for example, if the wizard uses quickened spells as he goes and ends up spending 30 spells, he probably got more out of his resources than the psion did. I propose arcane casters are more powerful than psions by a simple proof.
1) Expending full daily resources the wizard will get more impact total than the psion.
2) In an extreme case a wizard designed to do such can expend all of his resources in a single round.
3) In a less extreme case a wizard can by the above spend all his daily resources in what constitutes a typical set of daily encounters. A psion will do that same.
Therefore a wizard's combat impact in a day will be greater than the psion's, and by proxy his impact will round will also be better.
Your point is solid when you don't consider the abilities of both disciplines to accelerate their resource deployment, in that case its true, but that simply isn't the case. When both parties can if pressed to it fire off all their resources over the course of a reasonable encounter set it becomes about the total impact of there resources, not the impact of any one unit of those resources. I've shown you many times, that impact is bigger for a wizard. It comes down to being able to bring all your firepower to bear over the course of your encounters for the day, and both sides can do that, the psions by the augment system, and the wizards by multiple spell deployment techniques.
I will try and say it differently. The wizard examples use 2nd level spells that there are too many ways to block. The wizard "damage" spells need to be level 4 or better to prevent the enemy (aka the npc wizard) from just casting lesser shielding and ignore any incoming spells.
As near as I can sum up from the examples, if the wizard knows what he is facing and can drop to L2 spells, then he can out point the psionic character by loading nothing but combat spells. If the wizard can not get that info, guesses wrong, plans badly, or wants to keep the ability to be flexible, the psionic comes into his own.
Interesting that most of my last post disappeared.
I will try and say it differently. The wizard examples use 2nd level spells that there are too many ways to block. The wizard "damage" spells need to be level 4 or better to prevent the enemy (aka the npc wizard) from just casting lesser shielding and ignore any incoming spells.
As near as I can sum up from the examples, if the wizard knows what he is facing and can drop to L2 spells, then he can out point the psionic character by loading nothing but combat spells. If the wizard can not get that info, guesses wrong, plans badly, or wants to keep the ability to be flexible, the psionic comes into his own.
What primary damage powers are you suggesting that the Psion use? Most psion powers that have been suggested are lower than 4th level also. This would mean that they deal with the same shielding issues that wizards will. I would argue it is safe to assume that high level casters can reliably drop enemy defenses using either dispels/quickened dispels or a disjunction.
Ironically, the arcane comes out ahead even here in that they have the trump card of an auto-dispel with a disjunction.
Now, I would like to bring up something new, and that is the new variant psion the Erudite. This opens up a whole new can 'o worms, it eliminates the biggest weakness of the psion, though it does eliminate access to discipline powers, but then again, if the DM allows for plenty of researching opportunities, the Erudite can be as versatile as a wizard and be able to keep his low level powers useful in combat vs. the big baddies. I know the Erudite is limited by unique powers per power level per day, but that still leaves an awful lot of room for customizing on the fly, while giving them wizard-like versatility, but they still have the same PP per day as a psion, which leaves them trailing the wizard in total across the board usefulness, while taking away easy access to some of the best powers in psionics. I argue that the Erudite may be slightly, just slightly overpowered if min-maxed well, but then you still have to rely on psionic focus and a lack of stacking metapsionics. I mean really, this whole debate does seem to drag out too much as the writers of the books are seasoned players/designers and it seems very unlikely that they would contemplate publishing a "broken" anything, at least for the players to use.
The main issue comes down to the effective campaign style. If we look at a standard model it seems that the psion is roughly equal or even a little behind. The biggest thing we need to remember when comparing power levels is look at what the most logical comparison would be and test it in situations that favor it, trouble it, and are neutral and work out overall advantages thereof.
Another way of viewing this is would you rather have 1,000,000 dollars right now or one cent constantly doubled each day, over 1 year. That one cent gets bigger, eventually surpassing a million by a great degree at the end of the year.Do you forget, that "1,000,000 dollar's" can be put into investment? So what saves that person from "saving those Powers- as you prefer to say -for those battles where it counts? Me, although I'm no "Hardcore D&D" person, I like the motto of always having a secret card up my sleeve, aka, one last, final resort of a spell. But back to my point, that million can make more than that one cent doubling.
-back to reading the thread and searching for information on Lockies (Warlocks) since I'll be starting a campaign soon.
Peace,
Elvendur
Do you forget, that "1,000,000 dollar's" can be put into investment? So what saves that person from "saving those Powers- as you prefer to say -for those battles where it counts? Me, although I'm no "Hardcore D&D" person, I like the motto of always having a secret card up my sleeve, aka, one last, final resort of a spell. But back to my point, that million can make more than that one cent doubling.
-back to reading the thread and searching for information on Lockies (Warlocks) since I'll be starting a campaign soon.
Peace,
Elvendur
Congratulations on thread necromancy and on being rather obtuse. The question is simply do you want a big surge now or a better investment later. The idea being that if you can't look beyond now then you'll have problems. The trump card of powers is better suited to a caster than a psion, psionics have the issue of being supernovas. They can be utterly devastating in one or two encounters but outside of that have the tendency to fall behind.
one, for the math, doing damage is all about saving throws and damage per round. at level 20, the wizard throwing around fireballs may as well be ******* in the wind for most encounters.
Low level spells do not seriously add up to high level slots for a wizard. And lets not talk about how one can call a level 1 spell slot as worth 5d6 because shocking grasp has that potential. I mean really, can anyone say they've ever used shocking grasp past level say, 5 (and even that late only in desparation) on a mage? There are a lot of limitations to low level spells, and although they scale to some extent with levels, it is by no means the same degree of scaling that a psion gets with his points.
Just to reiterate, the difference between 2 fireballs from a level 20 mage and the equivlent psp from a psion is that they can be spent in one round (thus the impact argument), and the DC is 6 higher. if you think 6 points of save DC isnt make or break on a spell, I am boggled. people that are counting spells lower than the top 3 or so levels of arcane spells for more than utility are flat out wrong. There is a reason they nerfed the DC increasing feats in 3.5, spell DC is the single most important caster stat.
A concept from champions is I think quite viable here. no matter how many limitations you take, you have a finite maximum to how much maximum effect you can have. and this balance is different with the psion than with other casters. No matter how limited you may be, it doesnt justify the incredible effects possible.
I have seen characters at low levels clearly overpower encounters with psionics in a way a mage cant do. (dishing out 3d10 damage at level 3 4ish times a day vs the mage types doing way less than that. hell its a will save to boot, something most encounters at low level will be weakest to) It remains to be seen at higher levels, I'm tempted to think the overwhelming advantages lessen a bit, tho the edge will always be with the psion.
The fact is, psionics is powerful. more powerful than other casters in a number of ways. the fact that these threads crop up all the time is a good indication of that. Its not so powerful that a good GM cant curtail it or contain it, but it requires a gm to watch moreso than any other base caster class.
-Kyrinthic
ps: its worth noting that every example of comparative damage uses metamagiced scorching ray, a spell generally seen as being overpowered when used with metamagic, coincidence? Also one of very few damage dealing spells not tied to saving throw, coincidence? go ahead and try to metamagic up another level 2 spell that uses a save and see how many d6 you can rack up at -7 save DC from the psion
A few points, so far down on a thread I doubt it ever gets read, but hey.
one, for the math, doing damage is all about saving throws and damage per round. at level 20, the wizard throwing around fireballs may as well be ******* in the wind for most encounters.
True, but then again a Wizard also has better spells for those slots at higher levels, targeting ray, Escalating Enfeeblement, etc. The debuffs and lockdown spells take the place of the damage ones and frankly damage spells aren't very good anyway.
Low level spells do not seriously add up to high level slots for a wizard. And lets not talk about how one can call a level 1 spell slot as worth 5d6 because shocking grasp has that potential. I mean really, can anyone say they've ever used shocking grasp past level say, 5 (and even that late only in desparation) on a mage? There are a lot of limitations to low level spells, and although they scale to some extent with levels, it is by no means the same degree of scaling that a psion gets with his points.
Actually the arcane casters get better scaling. Their summons increase in dice, duration, and power for free, the psion has to pump more in and often can't augment to the same level without taking more feats to do what a wizard, sorcerer, cleric, or any other vancian caster can do naturally.
Just to reiterate, the difference between 2 fireballs from a level 20 mage and the equivalent psp from a psion is that they can be spent in one round (thus the impact argument), and the DC is 6 higher. if you think 6 points of save DC isn't make or break on a spell, I am boggled. people that are counting spells lower than the top 3 or so levels of arcane spells for more than utility are flat out wrong. There is a reason they nerfed the DC increasing feats in 3.5, spell DC is the single most important caster stat.
Yes, and if the psion is wasting points upping the DC on damage powers then I just sit back and laugh. They can be more effective with mind control or lockdown stuff, but fine, if they would rather make things go boom, good for them. Damage at high levels is a drop in the bucket.
A concept from champions is I think quite viable here. no matter how many limitations you take, you have a finite maximum to how much maximum effect you can have. and this balance is different with the psion than with other casters. No matter how limited you may be, it doesn't justify the incredible effects possible.
You mean like weaker abilities than a standard caster in almost all cases? Explain these 'incredible' effects because frankly I think that you're either exaggerating or you don't understand how the psionics system works very well.
I have seen characters at low levels clearly overpower encounters with psionics in a way a mage cant do. (dishing out 3d10 damage at level 3 4ish times a day vs the mage types doing way less than that. hell its a will save to boot, something most encounters at low level will be weakest to) It remains to be seen at higher levels, I'm tempted to think the overwhelming advantages lessen a bit, tho the edge will always be with the psion.
Yes, and with a wizard I can make a save-or-die to everything in a cone from me. In fact comparatively it's much better because I'm getting more targets and I'm being more economical with spells.
The fact is, psionics is powerful. more powerful than other casters in a number of ways. the fact that these threads crop up all the time is a good indication of that. Its not so powerful that a good GM cant curtail it or contain it, but it requires a gm to watch moreso than any other base caster class.
-Kyrinthic
There are also people who have made threads that power attack is too strong as written or any number of other things. Tome of Battle has people who find it too strong which I find hilarious. Quite frankly it's more a result of some people simply not liking psionics, some people not understanding it and getting the wrong idea, or some people who hear bad things about it and make up their mind without properly analyzing it.
ps: its worth noting that every example of comparative damage uses metamagiced scorching ray, a spell generally seen as being overpowered when used with metamagic, coincidence? Also one of very few damage dealing spells not tied to saving throw, coincidence? go ahead and try to metamagic up another level 2 spell that uses a save and see how many d6 you can rack up at -7 save DC from the psion
Ok, that's fine, but then we'll also compare non-metamagiced spells of X levels to non-augmented powers of X level, no extra points added in. If people wand to complain about Xd6 damage, that's fine, then we'll show them an equivalent spell and why they're not looking at it the right way.
A few points, so far down on a thread I doubt it ever gets read, but hey.
one, for the math, doing damage is all about saving throws and damage per round. at level 20, the wizard throwing around fireballs may as well be ******* in the wind for most encounters.
Low level spells do not seriously add up to high level slots for a wizard. And lets not talk about how one can call a level 1 spell slot as worth 5d6 because shocking grasp has that potential. I mean really, can anyone say they've ever used shocking grasp past level say, 5 (and even that late only in desparation) on a mage? There are a lot of limitations to low level spells, and although they scale to some extent with levels, it is by no means the same degree of scaling that a psion gets with his points.
Just to reiterate, the difference between 2 fireballs from a level 20 mage and the equivlent psp from a psion is that they can be spent in one round (thus the impact argument), and the DC is 6 higher. if you think 6 points of save DC isnt make or break on a spell, I am boggled. people that are counting spells lower than the top 3 or so levels of arcane spells for more than utility are flat out wrong. There is a reason they nerfed the DC increasing feats in 3.5, spell DC is the single most important caster stat.
Completely agreed. Any ability that lets you up your saving throw DC is bound to be good, almost no matter what it does. The psionic ability to up a saving throw DC when needed is very good indeed. I dare to say, better than free scaling.
the argument for this is that:
Successful save = No effect, or half effect (in most cases). Thus, two PP (as far as I know, I can be HORRIBLE wrong here, so please show kindness) can increase the DC by 1.
At the same time, 2 PP equals to a level, which means +1d6 damage. If the effect saves, that's 1/2 damage, so the effective damage is: 0,75d6 against +1 DC. I say this is actually quite a good trade off, since +1 DC equals 5% extra chance to fail.
I have seen characters at low levels clearly overpower encounters with psionics in a way a mage cant do. (dishing out 3d10 damage at level 3 4ish times a day vs the mage types doing way less than that. hell its a will save to boot, something most encounters at low level will be weakest to) It remains to be seen at higher levels, I'm tempted to think the overwhelming advantages lessen a bit, tho the edge will always be with the psion.
Ahm... at 3rd level, a wizard can dish out 4d6 damage...
4d6 = 3,5*4 = 14 average damage
3d10 = 5,5*3 = 16,5 average damage
I hardly see what's overpowering with that here. Okay, the wizard can only throw it twice per day, which gives:
wizard = 28 average damage
psion = 49,5 average damage (roughly double)
I have a hard time seeing how being able to cast a spell one more time is that overpowering. Also, overwhelm IMO, increases over level, so if you believe that overwhelm is good, then prepare for epic level were spells can be deadly by just sheer overwhelm.
The fact is, psionics is powerful. more powerful than other casters in a number of ways. the fact that these threads crop up all the time is a good indication of that. Its not so powerful that a good GM cant curtail it or contain it, but it requires a gm to watch moreso than any other base caster class.
Okay, now I'm gonna do something I never thought I was going to do (thank Tempest Stormwind for this psiers ;))
I disagree. The fact is, psionics aren't much more powerful than arcane magic (less so in versatility, more so in damage, which is commonly known to be worth almost nothing compared to versatility at level 15+). It's just a unique system that has a hard time adapting to the normal Vancian spellcasting system, thus, many of the V-ers hate it, while those who prefer to be the "ultimate sorcerer", love it.
Unexperienced DM's need to watch it if they don't understand the rules set, or if they really find it odd. A DM's job is to give challenges. It's just a bit more difficult to challenge thanks to the versatility of a single power (in means of cost, damage etc.)
ps: its worth noting that every example of comparative damage uses metamagiced scorching ray, a spell generally seen as being overpowered when used with metamagic, coincidence? Also one of very few damage dealing spells not tied to saving throw, coincidence? go ahead and try to metamagic up another level 2 spell that uses a save and see how many d6 you can rack up at -7 save DC from the psion
Touché! That's a very good argument, but still not killing. But indeed, scorching ray is overpowered for a level 2 spell.
one, for the math, doing damage is all about saving throws and damage per round. at level 20, the wizard throwing around fireballs may as well be ******* in the wind for most encounters.
This has not been argued.
Low level spells do not seriously add up to high level slots for a wizard. And lets not talk about how one can call a level 1 spell slot as worth 5d6 because shocking grasp has that potential. I mean really, can anyone say they've ever used shocking grasp past level say, 5 (and even that late only in desperation) on a mage? There are a lot of limitations to low level spells, and although they scale to some extent with levels, it is by no means the same degree of scaling that a psion gets with his points.
This has also not been argued. If you'd read the thread you'll note the high level comparisons don't use anything lower than 6th level and higher spell slots. The wizard manages to match damage output with those alone.
Just to reiterate, the difference between 2 fireballs from a level 20 mage and the equivalent psp from a psion is that they can be spent in one round (thus the impact argument), and the DC is 6 higher. if you think 6 points of save DC isnt make or break on a spell, I am boggled. people that are counting spells lower than the top 3 or so levels of arcane spells for more than utility are flat out wrong. There is a reason they nerfed the DC increasing feats in 3.5, spell DC is the single most important caster stat.
No one has argued that. The fact, however, is that the mages' highest level spells are so much more powerful than a psion's full load that he can do more at those high DCs without worries.
A concept from champions is I think quite viable here. no matter how many limitations you take, you have a finite maximum to how much maximum effect you can have. and this balance is different with the psion than with other casters. No matter how limited you may be, it doesn't justify the incredible effects possible.
You have obviously not read the thread and the comparisons made.
I have seen characters at low levels clearly overpower encounters with psionics in a way a mage cant do. (dishing out 3d10 damage at level 3 4ish times a day vs the mage types doing way less than that. hell its a will save to boot, something most encounters at low level will be weakest to) It remains to be seen at higher levels, I'm tempted to think the overwhelming advantages lessen a bit, tho the edge will always be with the psion.
You have not seen what mages can do, then. A 3rd level mage gets 4 Color Sprays a day easily, which is a stronger bet than Mind Thrust hands down.
The fact is, psionics is powerful. more powerful than other casters in a number of ways. the fact that these threads crop up all the time is a good indication of that. Its not so powerful that a good GM cant curtail it or contain it, but it requires a gm to watch moreso than any other base caster class.
Powerful does not equal overpowered.
More powerful than the core mages or divine casters? Demonstrably false. Demonstrated in this thread, as a matter of fact.
The fact that these threads cropped up all the time were evidence that people didn't pay careful attention to the limitations of psionics, the capabilities of the core casters, and the nature of balance in the D&D system. Notice my use of the past tense: I have seen two posters, including yourself, claim that Psionics are too powerful in the last three years. I'm hoping everyone is getting the hint.
Both my GMs find it easier to keep a psionic character under control, with their relatively limited stamina and options, than an equivalent Vancian caster. It's fairly obvious as to why.
ps: its worth noting that every example of comparative damage uses metamagiced scorching ray, a spell generally seen as being overpowered when used with metamagic, coincidence? Also one of very few damage dealing spells not tied to saving throw, coincidence? go ahead and try to metamagic up another level 2 spell that uses a save and see how many d6 you can rack up at -7 save DC from the psion
All right, would you like to go back through the thread and read the alternative comparisons? If you care, the superiority of arcane save-or-dies or battlefield control can be demonstrated. We can also do a high level comparison of negative level damage dealt and the core-only mage will smoke a psion with access to Complete Psionic. Alternatively, we can open up the broken rules exploits that grant a mage infinite wealth, infinite Wishes, easy oneshot encounters, and more.
I apologize for being curt but your points have been gone over before. Please read the thread and other threads where this has been discussed.
False. Charm Monster works on any living thing not immune to mind-affecting spells/powers, just like Psionic Charm does (given enough augmentation), so you just need to know one spell in the end. The sorcerer dumps Charm Person once he gets Charm Monster anyway. Sure, you use a higher level spell slot, but so does the psion: he pays more power points to affect anything.
As for summons, you're perfectly fine with using Summon Monster IX. You can summon anything from any summon list (from 1st through 9th) with it. Once more, a sorcerer can just swap his lower level summon spells as they become redundant. If you want to keep lower level summons as to not have to use 9th level spell slots, sure you can do that. With it, you can do just as much as (if not more than) a psion using augmented Astral Construct powers.
Granted, you'll use higher level spells known than the psion will, which is an advantage of his. Still, you don't have as wide a power list to choose from as a wizard/sorcerer does. This has been addressed fairly well earlier, so I'll not repeat it.
I'm not sure if your missing the point or ignoring it. Psions Still get to pick a new power while others need to pick the "greater" versions.
I don't know what it is but why the hell is psionics still broken after everything we learned from 2nd edition. Granted it's not AS bad as 2nd edition but it's as if the same minds who simply refused to accept there was a game balance issue before are at it again.
I'm not sure if you're missing the point or ignoring it. Psions still get to pick a new power while others need to pick the "greater" versions.
I don't know what it is but why the hell is psionics still broken after everything we learned from 2nd edition. Granted it's not AS bad as 2nd edition but it's as if the same minds who simply refused to accept there was a game balance issue before are at it again.
Except the issue is that in many cases it ISN'T the same power. While magic missile might not be great it still gets its full punch from being a first level spell in a first level slot, you don't need to prep it higher. A psion has to pump more points into psionic charm, making it the effective level of charm monster if you want to compare resource consumption. Is it perfect, no, but the problem is that you're calling something broken because you don't get how the equivalent works.
A wizard has an unlimited number of spells known, a sorcerer can trade out spells as they go. A psion has a smaller total power list BECAUSE they can augment, and the truth is that in many cases even augmented their powers lag behind those of their arcane or divine brethren.
I'm not sure if your missing the point or ignoring it. Psions Still get to pick a new power while others need to pick the "greater" versions.
I don't know what it is but why the hell is psionics still broken after everything we learned from 2nd edition. Granted it's not AS bad as 2nd edition but it's as if the same minds who simply refused to accept there was a game balance issue before are at it again.
And wizards get 'Fly' a level earlier than nomads. Hell, 5/6ths of Psions can't even take Fly without a feat.
Similarly, that Psionic Dominate you're worried about? Same story. 5/6ths of Psions can't take it without a feat.
Any wizard can take Summon Monster. 5/6ths of Psions cannot take Astral Construct without a feat.
Get the idea? Flexibility within the powers themselves is counterbalances by the draconian Discipline system. Imagine if only Evokers could take Fireball, for example.
And as to the balance of Psionics in general, please read the 'Myth' threads on the Psionics board, as well as just about every thread ever started on the balance of Psionics.
The Erudite does seem a bit of an issue to me as well but overall I'm still somewhat iffy on how powerful it would be long haul.
The Erudite will be deadly when the Ultimate Psion PRC is introduced to complement the Ultimate Magus PRC mechanically.
Wizards were built into D&D since it began. They require no special provisions. Likewise clerics have also been there.
Newer, much more successful concepts like the warlock and Tome of Battle are easier to deal with since they function well within the same system as other classes. Warlocks are rewarded and challenged by the same things as other mages, TOB warriors are rewarded and challenged by the same things other fighters face.
Why then, are psionics so different? They are no doubt much older and well understood than Warlocks and TOB, and they are in the SRD. Yet, people are much less willing to try or use them. Why?
1- Ostensibly, flavor. Psionics are completely alien. The names are incomprehensible, and hearken more to the "Age of Aquarius" than swords and sorcery of any sort. Not relevant
2- Strategic flexibility: Over a long period of time, a wizard is much more powerful than a psion. Indisputable. However, a psion has a very harsh shock and surprise effect, and can easily ruin any DM's day much more so than a wizard. I would liken this to the difference between an army and a nuclear bomb. An army can strike and has sustained power, and ultimately will probably win a war even if there are nuclear weapons used. However, the very threat of a 'nuke' changes the perceptions of warfare.
Psions are the same. A DM must always be aware of this "Nuke" capability. It's two strikes-Not only does he need to worry about a strategist who will devastate his encounters, he also needs to worry about a twit who'll waste his powers and might cause a party wipe, or just sit out and feel useless.
3- Different types of thinking: Like an army and nuclear weapons, magic and psionics require different sets of tactics when dealing with them. Even in the "Psionics is equal" variant, there are key differences. You need to give out Psionic items. You need to structure encounters differently. Ultimately, how can you structure a game with BOTH wizards and psions and not have one nova or run out of steam?
4- Teamwork- And if they work together, what about the Non-Spellcasters? Say what you will about DMs that should be able to run campaigns of ramping power, there's always a limit to what a DM can take in terms of optimization, and a psion/wizard/cleric triumvirate is a lot to stomach.
5- Different class mentality- Almost every other class is about longterm effects. Multiple uses per day of rage. More spells per day. Feats for the fighter. Maneuvers every encounter. The psion is exactly the opposite. This juxtaposition certainly causes tensions between both DMs and players.
6-Mutually Assured Destruction- The worst part about Psionics. Like a nuke, a psion can have an extremely decisive impact on the battlefield at the cost of destruction in case of failure. That means in 2-3 rounds of nuking, a psion has either
A) Won a major battle for the session very quickly or
B) Was totally fooled and now faces crushing destruction now that he's revealed himself as a terrible threat, but also put himself in a vulnerable position by expending all of his forces.
The end result of any D&D game is that they will win a conflict, or lose a conflict. The game is in getting to either result. Most insidiously, Psions are based around -removing- the middle part of the game, often to the detriment, of the players or the DM.
Psions by their rule set present a lose-lose-lose situation for a DM. You either allow the player to win by nuking, allow him to be mediocre in the face of wizards via sustained casting, or he loses horribly because you countered his nuking and now he bemoans the rest of the session because he's useless.
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There you have it. A psionics game forces a DM to think and plan encounters -differently-, much more differently than he would for any other game involving things such as TOB warriors or Warlocks.
D&D is simply a different game when you use psionics. It is more demanding on the DM and the players, and places the ever present threat of MAD into the game.
That is why there are so many people opposed to it, that is why it is 'Unbalanced'. It is not unbalanced because it is -too strong- it is unbalanced because in any given situation, it is simply not -just right-.
It promotes the creation of very binary characters, which is bad. Either they are too strong in a game, or too weak. You fall into a trap in which your character presents too great a threat, but can be easily killed given thought.
Eventually, a DM will be encouraged hit that weakness hard, and eliminate the character from the game. It is a path to self destruction.
As a DM, my concerns are more than just whether something is 'more powerful or less powerful' it's also whether something is synergistic or not.
Good point, and a sophisticated start.
Wizards were built into D&D since it began. They require no special provisions. Likewise clerics have also been there.
Newer, much more successful concepts like the warlock and Tome of Battle are easier to deal with since they function well within the same system as other classes. Warlocks are rewarded and challenged by the same things as other mages, TOB warriors are rewarded and challenged by the same things other fighters face.
So far so good, I'd disagree with the first sentences as Wizards and clerics do need special provisions given what they can do to the game.
Why then, are psionics so different? They are no doubt much older and well understood than Warlocks and TOB, and they are in the SRD. Yet, people are much less willing to try or use them. Why?
1- Ostensibly, flavor. Psionics are completely alien. The names are incomprehensible, and hearken more to the "Age of Aquarius" than swords and sorcery of any sort. Not relevant
Correct on the not relevant; I'd like to plug the 'Truenaming Psionics' link in my sig to explain further.
2- Strategic flexibility: Over a long period of time, a wizard is much more powerful than a psion. Indisputable. However, a psion has a very harsh shock and surprise effect, and can easily ruin any DM's day much more so than a wizard. I would liken this to the difference between an army and a nuclear bomb. An army can strike and has sustained power, and ultimately will probably win a war even if there are nuclear weapons used. However, the very threat of a 'nuke' changes the perceptions of warfare.
Not quite - you're right so far except when you say 'much more so than a wizard'.
Psions are the same. A DM must always be aware of this "Nuke" capability. It's two strikes-Not only does he need to worry about a strategist who will devastate his encounters, he also needs to worry about a twit who'll waste his powers and might cause a party wipe, or just sit out and feel useless.
The thing is, this is not a psion-only phenomenon. Wizards are in fact better at destroying encounters right off the bat without any practical chance of survival for the other side; read the thread where comparisons to the strongest combos available to a mage are discussed.
3- Different types of thinking: Like an army and nuclear weapons, magic and psionics require different sets of tactics when dealing with them. Even in the "Psionics is equal" variant, there are key differences. You need to give out Psionic items. You need to structure encounters differently. Ultimately, how can you structure a game with BOTH wizards and psions and not have one nova or run out of steam?
You don't really need to give out Psionic items; let them craft a few of their own maybe, but it's not a big deal to go without them. And dealing with novas is the same for any per-day caster: you scale the difficulty of the encounters to the amount of per-day resources they can throw at it.
4- Teamwork- And if they work together, what about the Non-Spellcasters? Say what you will about DMs that should be able to run campaigns of ramping power, there's always a limit to what a DM can take in terms of optimization, and a psion/wizard/cleric triumvirate is a lot to stomach.
Here, the core casters are actually better at buffing the other classes. Psions excel in metaeffects like Share Pain and Dimension Swap.
5- Different class mentality- Almost every other class is about longterm effects. Multiple uses per day of rage. More spells per day. Feats for the fighter. Maneuvers every encounter. The psion is exactly the opposite. This juxtaposition certainly causes tensions between both DMs and players.
On the contrary, the Psion is like the spells per day model, except with restrictions that don't allow the Psion to break the game like the core casters can.
6-Mutually Assured Destruction- The worst part about Psionics. Like a nuke, a psion can have an extremely decisive impact on the battlefield at the cost of destruction in case of failure. That means in 2-3 rounds of nuking, a psion has either
A) Won a major battle for the session very quickly or
B) Was totally fooled and now faces crushing destruction now that he's revealed himself as a terrible threat, but also put himself in a vulnerable position by expending all of his forces.
Which is stupid in the long term, a smart player doesn't gamble but learns how to apply his power points efficiently for maximum effect, so he's never caught with his pants down. Psionic PCs played this way are more reliable and die less often.
The end result of any D&D game is that they will win a conflict, or lose a conflict. The game is in getting to either result. Most insidiously, Psions are based around -removing- the middle part of the game, often to the detriment, of the players or the DM.
That's nonsense. They are basically like the core casters, with the following changes:
They are more flexible power-to-power due to augmentation.
Because they have to pay for every point, running low is more dangerous to them than to the core casters, so the threat of stamina exhaustion is more effective in keeping them in line.
They don't have the restrictions of complex bookkeeping that falls on the core casters and give players headaches.
They don't have the absurdly powerful game-breaking spell effects that the core casters have. The options the power list offers differs slightly from the spell lists (better self-buffing, blasting, and action efficiency; but worse battlefield control, save-or-dies, and party buffing).
That's really all it is.
Psions by their rule set present a lose-lose-lose situation for a DM. You either allow the player to win by nuking, allow him to be mediocre in the face of wizards via sustained casting, or he loses horribly because you countered his nuking and now he bemoans the rest of the session because he's useless.
Uhh, you do know that the core casters can nova too, right? And are more problematic due to core spell imbalance on top, right? A druid who novas all his spells still has wildshape and an animal companion effectively all day. Most wizards and clerics can win encounters with a single casting of a 9th level spell. Psion nova tactics are actually EASIER to deal with, [thread=476377]if you know what you're doing.[/thread]
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There you have it. A psionics game forces a DM to think and plan encounters -differently-, much more differently than he would for any other game involving things such as TOB warriors or Warlocks.
D&D is simply a different game when you use psionics. It is more demanding on the DM and the players, and places the ever present threat of MAD into the game.
That is why there are so many people opposed to it, that is why it is 'Unbalanced'. It is not unbalanced because it is -too strong- it is unbalanced because in any given situation, it is simply not -just right-.
It promotes the creation of very binary characters, which is bad. Either they are too strong in a game, or too weak. You fall into a trap in which your character presents too great a threat, but can be easily killed given thought.
Eventually, a DM will be encouraged hit that weakness hard, and eliminate the character from the game. It is a path to self destruction.
Oh yes. Psionics changes everything.
For the better.
It's easier for the DM as keeping track of a character's stamina is a simple matter of watching their power point pool and threatening it accordingly. It's easier to have to ban/adjust 3 problem powers out of the XPH rather than over 20 out of the PHB. It's nice to have everything needed to optimize a caster in a single book rather than three. It's also nice that if you actually line up the CR of your monsters with what the party can be expected to throw at them in a day, the psion will sit fine. And a psion who doesn't know how to control the nova button is no more problematic than a caster who doesn't and easier to set back in line to boot.
I do not disagree that Psionics [post=13042692]is a tricky thing to identify as balanced using the rules of thumb we're taught in Core.[/post] But if you actually look at all the factors, it is balanced where the core casters are found wanting.
I appreciate your more sophisticated attempt though, and hope you read the whole thread through.
First off, I have never met a DM that follows the encounters-per-day standard on a constant basis playing...ever.
There are builds that can cause the majority of classes to be overpowering in most situations, but you can simply look at changing those builds or feat-chains, or not allow them in your campaign if they wreck things.
I think what you really have to look at for the psion is, "does this character typically break the game with well built campain run by a decent DM."
It doesn't.
Certainly no more than a well built druid, sorc, warmage, artificer, ranger, or cleric. All are better examples, in my mind at least, of characters that can be built to be game breakers over the psion.
I would understand if you said that an average wizard build was slightly underpowered now unless the player was willing to constantly plan, think ahead, and be exceptionally creative with his spells. I would say that building a game breaking wizard is just about as easy as building a game breaking psion, however.
And wizards get 'Fly' a level earlier than nomads. Hell, 5/6ths of Psions can't even take Fly without a feat.
Similarly, that Psionic Dominate you're worried about? Same story. 5/6ths of Psions can't take it without a feat.
Any wizard can take Summon Monster. 5/6ths of Psions cannot take Astral Construct without a feat.
Get the idea? Flexibility within the powers themselves is counterbalanced by the draconian Discipline system. Imagine if only Evokers could take Fireball, for example.
And as to the balance of Psionics in general, please read the 'Myth' threads on the Psionics board, as well as just about every thread ever started on the balance of Psionics.
And Wizards get it all much earlier than Sorcerers for what was intended to bring balance to but the whole point is irrelevant when you cut every corner to break the system from doing things like moving to a point based system which essentially translates to a massively larger number of the highest level powers(spells equivalent abilities) available.
I've read and posted in the "Myth" Thread. It's not as bad as it used to be but...
Breetai, as I said before, the opportunity cost of a greater version of a spell is nigh-negligible to a Wizard while the Sorcerer has been borked by how his class spell list is designed. If anything, it's yet another argument for Psionics being better balanced than core spellcasting.
It's far from Nigh-Negligable. It's just one aspect of why psions are overpowered. It gives the Psion a far superior range of power selection at higher levels exponentially than ALL of their spontaneous casting counterparts.
Some folks may notice that a few posts have been edited and/or deleted. That's because the posting of inflammatory comments of an insulting nature falls under the category of "Flaming, Baiting, and/or Trolling" in the [u]Wizards of the Coast Online Code of Conduct[/u] (by which everyone who posts on these forums must agree to abide as a condition of recieveing a screen name).
While you'll probably never recieve a warning for doing it, replying to an inflammatory comment (a.k.a. "falling into the original poster's trap by doing [i][u]exactly[/u][/i] what they wanted you to do") is just as disruptive and runs counter to the entire point of the forums.
So please try very hard not to do it.
Thanks.
And Wizards get it all much earlier than Sorcerers for what was intended to bring balance to but the whole point is irrelevant when you cut every corner to break the system from doing things like moving to a point based system which essentially translates to a massively larger number of the highest level powers(spells equivalent abilities) available.
Indeed. Sorcerers are far inferior to Wizards in terms of versatility and spell selection. This is one of the reasons Sorcerers may be considered mechanically weaker than Wizards.
Similarly, Psions are inferior to Wizards in terms of versatility and spell vs. power selection. Psions gain 36 total powers from class levels, plus bonus powers from high modifiers. If they want more, they have to spend one feat per extra power.
Wizards receive *more* spells automatically (40 plus bonuses), and if they want more, they only have to spend gold. It cannot seriously be claimed that spending gold to expand a spell list is worse than spending feats to gain extra powers.
Especially when key powers such as Fly can often only be obtained through feat expenditure, and Wizards can (barring DM interference) select *any* Arcane spell from *anywhere* as one of their level-up choices.
Psions *need* the broader powers to even bring them up to par. The resource issue tips the balance.
Augmentation always is mathematically worse then spells-per-day or the entire system for that matter.
A blunt example, if I want to do "meanie blast" on someone as a psychic. I'm going to have to expend points. Probably like 10 to deal 5d6 damage.
Seems harsh, considering by this time I already have like 150 points as my disposable right?
Well my spellcaster friend over there could do it too! He innately gets the 5d6 damage because his spells revolve around "+ per caster level" and he still have several spells per day, not counting lower level spells!
Here I am actually having to think about what's most important to me, yet the wizard gets to use intelligence as his casting stat!
I mean really, even when you compare jank to jank casters win.
Sorcerer>Wilder
Wizard>Psion
Cleric or Druid>Psychic Warrior
Anything short of Fighter>Soulknife
Psionics is still better then non-casters, but it's a lot more balanced then spellcasting ever was or ever could-be..
Psionics pale in comparison to magic. Any and always.
Augmentation always is mathematically worse then spells-per-day or the entire system for that matter.
Sorcerer>Wilder
Wizard>Psion
Cleric or Druid>Psychic Warrior
Anything short of Fighter>Soulknife
Psionics is still better then non-casters, but it's a lot more balanced then spellcasting ever was or ever could-be..
A lot depends on how you look at it.
Mechanically the psions get to use more high level powers or low level powers as the situation demands if they wish and although they have to pay for scaling as you post they get to scale a lot more powers than a typical sorcerer and many of the powers have more utility than their standard arcane counterpart.
I compare psions to sorcerers.
Without PRCs the sorcerer generally pales in comparison and without a lot of paperwork and record keeping so does the wizard.
Particularly with the Magic to Power feat which really opens up things to all psions because with that single feat psions can duplicate many of the choice discipline powers via a magical spell counterpart without needing to spend an expanded knowledge feat.
Things like Fast Healing 1 at 1PP is a lot of healing without magical resource drain on the group. Throw in Lesser Restoration and Panacea. Take Heal at mid levels. Now the psion can be the healbot for the group and be better at it than most healers.
Wizards receive *more* spells automatically (40 plus bonuses), and if they want more, they only have to spend gold. It cannot seriously be claimed that spending gold to expand a spell list is worse than spending feats to gain extra powers.
Depending on how much gold a DM feels that an enemy spellcaster's spellbook is worth this extra gold amount could be pretty low..
After all, the Spellcraft check to prepare a spell out of another caster's spellbook gets to be trivial over the course of levels.
And Wizards get it all much earlier than Sorcerers for what was intended to bring balance to but the whole point is irrelevant when you cut every corner to break the system from doing things like moving to a point based system which essentially translates to a massively larger number of the highest level powers(spells equivalent abilities) available.
It really only looks impressive. In practice it's not all that impressive at all.
Even Sorcerers are better off than Psions are in terms of strategic versatility because they have no limit on which spells they can choose. Tactically, they're more limited, but the combination of top-tier effect selection and repetitive casting is just that good.
The illusion is that Psions can "cast" more "9th level effects" than Arcanes can. The truth is, if Psionic Powers are the benchmark, then even 5th level Arcane effects can sometimes be as good as or better than 9th level powers, and if you're going to be counting the top 4 tiers of spell slots...
...well, then Wizards and Sorcerers will outlast any Psion foolish enough to max every power he has on every round. This is, in fact, the experience of virtually every Psion I've seen in play.