Questions about spellcasting variants - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Questions about spellcasting variants

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
yeti1069
Mar 15, 2008 4:02:57 In a game I'm running, I have chosen to define arcane and divine spellcasters by their method of casting, giving arcane spellpoints and the vitalizing variant, and giving divine the recharge system.

One question that has come up, though, is how restoration and such should work. If it works as normal, then no caster would have to wait more than a few rounds to gain back a chunk of spellpoints. Also, it makes ability damage meaningless beyond a single encounter.

As such, I was thinking of either making lesser restore and restore have a specific recharge time, or ruling that characters may only benefit from such spells a certain number of times per day (probably 2 or 3).

Has anyone used these variants? Is this a good idea? Also, are there any other pitfalls you have encountered?
#2
runestar
Mar 15, 2008 7:29:36 IMO, spellpoint system is problematic as the really powerful wizard spells don't require saves, and are less reliant on caster lv, so you don't really need to augment them. This would allow casters to spam the few key spells like forcecage, maze, disjunction, gate and shapechange like crazy. The augmentation mechanic really only impacts damage spells like fireball, so you simply won't use them.

Recharge variant has an interesting kink when it comes to interacting with spells whose duration can eventually exceed their recharge timing. For example, past 6th lv, bull's str lasts for 6 minutes, and recharges in 5 minutes, so you can theoretically keep it up 24/7 by simply refreshing it every few minutes. I am not sure how it interacts with metamagic feats either (as might be the case for chain spell).

It should be manageable, so long as you know what to watch out for.
#3
Tovec
Mar 15, 2008 12:06:59 Personally, I'm interested in the new way they are talking about doing spells in 4e. I can't seem to get behind a lot of the rules they propose but the new method for spells do intrigue me.

Basically how it works:
Every level the spellcaster can either increase the ability of an existing spell (or spells) or gather new more powerful spells.
This could result in a wizard having magic missile at will with 3 fireballs per encounter and 3 stoneshape per day and 1 gate per week. Possibly (and probably) with a lot of other spells sprinkled in there.

Basically the part I like most is having flexibility to have more spells when needed but stability of Always having magic missile in a pinch.
#4
yeti1069
Mar 15, 2008 13:18:38 Tovec, I appreciate your enthusiasm for the new edition, but your reply is entirely unrelated to my topic and questions.

Runestar, I hadn't given a whole lot of thought to the recharge system (and I suppose the creators didn't either), but I'm thinking of maybe putting a cap on the duration of spells based on their specific recharge times (such as Bull's Strength would top out at 4 minutes) to avoid the 24/7 issue, but what of my other concerns?

Can anyone weigh in on my specific questions?
#5
ragoftag
Mar 15, 2008 23:59:01 I use a variant of the variants, specifically 2xspell level +1 rather than 2xspell level -1, less spells, and I am freer with cantrips, even if they now cost 1 spell point each use. And feats affect total spell points.

My vitalizing aspect has a more severe delay and fewer spell points recovered, primarily for wizards. A dual tapped wizard can take days to fully recover. Sorcerers have feats that boost recovery, but they are more reliant on good health. Both use the Con based option. Currently under revision and repair. Like a Yugo, it's a car, it's just a very poor car.

Recharge is a bit complicated and easily abused, IMO. The only counter I have to offer is you start the Recharge time from when the spell ends. Ouch! That's harsh! I must be really anti-recharge.

The Restoration angle can be solved by having a gradual restoration in place of the RAW instant version. I haven't really seen much off a problem with it, myself...
#6
yeti1069
Mar 16, 2008 0:36:58 What is that first variant--the 2xspell level?

My concern with recharge is it being used to replenish the casters with too much ease (thereby negating the vitalizing variant) and making disease and poison non-threatening.
#7
ragoftag
Mar 16, 2008 9:58:11 In the Hypertextd20 section on variant magic, a spell has a cost of 2(spell level) -1, therefore a level 5 spell would cost "2(5) -1", or 9 spell points. In my system, it would cost "2(5) +1", or 11 spell points. I allow much more liberal use of 0 level spells and extra spell points are awarded for different feats, heritage, etc.

Specifically:
SPELL POINTS
All Sorcerous and Sorcerous Bloodline feats, but also other specified feats yield at least one spell point, but some many have additional points included. These may or may not have further conditions and bonuses. Some Bloodlines do not allow spell point bonuses from certain sources or change their treatment.

I will also introduce a scaling bonus based on a Stat related to the form of magic. As an example of one such feat:
ASPECT OF COMMAND [SORCERER]
Prerequisite: Cha 15+, Draconic bloodline.
Benefit: You gain a +2 Racial bonus to the DC of you Enchantment spells and a +2 competence bonus to you Leadership score.
Special: If your Charisma is ever reduced below 15, you may not use this feat until it returns to 15+. You lose 10 spell points upon dropping below 15.
Special: You become haughty and demanding in your everyday life, suffering a -2 on all nonmagical social interactions from the scum that you are forced to share this world with.
Special: Aspect of Command grants ten extra spell points, rather than 1.

And yes, the social interaction penalty does counteract the Leadership bonus to a set degree.

Rechecking my Cleric rules, they get spell points back in full each time they do their daily prayers in good form (time of day, incense, etc.), but only partially if they are remiss. Another thing I need to look at this morning. Maybe lose access to their higher level spells...?
#8
yeti1069
Mar 16, 2008 14:00:40 Why the increase in cost? As it is, casters are getting fewer spells per day under the system, and damage is scaled down DRAMATICALLY. My friend crunched the numbers for a sorcerer and, at their base SP allotment, they are able to dish out only about 50% as much damage.

Sure, they gain increased versatility, but it really seems as though they are already giving up enough in return without then lessening the casters' spell per day even further.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 yeti1069 Mar 15, 2008 4:02:57	In a game I'm running, I have chosen to define arcane and divine spellcasters by their method of casting, giving arcane spellpoints and the vitalizing variant, and giving divine the recharge system. One question that has come up, though, is how restoration and such should work. If it works as normal, then no caster would have to wait more than a few rounds to gain back a chunk of spellpoints. Also, it makes ability damage meaningless beyond a single encounter. As such, I was thinking of either making lesser restore and restore have a specific recharge time, or ruling that characters may only benefit from such spells a certain number of times per day (probably 2 or 3). Has anyone used these variants? Is this a good idea? Also, are there any other pitfalls you have encountered?
#2 runestar Mar 15, 2008 7:29:36	IMO, spellpoint system is problematic as the really powerful wizard spells don't require saves, and are less reliant on caster lv, so you don't really need to augment them. This would allow casters to spam the few key spells like forcecage, maze, disjunction, gate and shapechange like crazy. The augmentation mechanic really only impacts damage spells like fireball, so you simply won't use them. Recharge variant has an interesting kink when it comes to interacting with spells whose duration can eventually exceed their recharge timing. For example, past 6th lv, bull's str lasts for 6 minutes, and recharges in 5 minutes, so you can theoretically keep it up 24/7 by simply refreshing it every few minutes. I am not sure how it interacts with metamagic feats either (as might be the case for chain spell). It should be manageable, so long as you know what to watch out for.
#3 Tovec Mar 15, 2008 12:06:59	Personally, I'm interested in the new way they are talking about doing spells in 4e. I can't seem to get behind a lot of the rules they propose but the new method for spells do intrigue me. Basically how it works: Every level the spellcaster can either increase the ability of an existing spell (or spells) or gather new more powerful spells. This could result in a wizard having magic missile at will with 3 fireballs per encounter and 3 stoneshape per day and 1 gate per week. Possibly (and probably) with a lot of other spells sprinkled in there. Basically the part I like most is having flexibility to have more spells when needed but stability of Always having magic missile in a pinch.
#4 yeti1069 Mar 15, 2008 13:18:38	Tovec, I appreciate your enthusiasm for the new edition, but your reply is entirely unrelated to my topic and questions. Runestar, I hadn't given a whole lot of thought to the recharge system (and I suppose the creators didn't either), but I'm thinking of maybe putting a cap on the duration of spells based on their specific recharge times (such as Bull's Strength would top out at 4 minutes) to avoid the 24/7 issue, but what of my other concerns? Can anyone weigh in on my specific questions?
#5 ragoftag Mar 15, 2008 23:59:01	I use a variant of the variants, specifically 2xspell level +1 rather than 2xspell level -1, less spells, and I am freer with cantrips, even if they now cost 1 spell point each use. And feats affect total spell points. My vitalizing aspect has a more severe delay and fewer spell points recovered, primarily for wizards. A dual tapped wizard can take days to fully recover. Sorcerers have feats that boost recovery, but they are more reliant on good health. Both use the Con based option. Currently under revision and repair. Like a Yugo, it's a car, it's just a very poor car. Recharge is a bit complicated and easily abused, IMO. The only counter I have to offer is you start the Recharge time from when the spell ends. Ouch! That's harsh! I must be really anti-recharge. The Restoration angle can be solved by having a gradual restoration in place of the RAW instant version. I haven't really seen much off a problem with it, myself...
#6 yeti1069 Mar 16, 2008 0:36:58	What is that first variant--the 2xspell level? My concern with recharge is it being used to replenish the casters with too much ease (thereby negating the vitalizing variant) and making disease and poison non-threatening.
#7 ragoftag Mar 16, 2008 9:58:11	In the Hypertextd20 section on variant magic, a spell has a cost of 2(spell level) -1, therefore a level 5 spell would cost "2(5) -1", or 9 spell points. In my system, it would cost "2(5) +1", or 11 spell points. I allow much more liberal use of 0 level spells and extra spell points are awarded for different feats, heritage, etc. Specifically: SPELL POINTS All Sorcerous and Sorcerous Bloodline feats, but also other specified feats yield at least one spell point, but some many have additional points included. These may or may not have further conditions and bonuses. Some Bloodlines do not allow spell point bonuses from certain sources or change their treatment. I will also introduce a scaling bonus based on a Stat related to the form of magic. As an example of one such feat: ASPECT OF COMMAND [SORCERER] Prerequisite: Cha 15+, Draconic bloodline. Benefit: You gain a +2 Racial bonus to the DC of you Enchantment spells and a +2 competence bonus to you Leadership score. Special: If your Charisma is ever reduced below 15, you may not use this feat until it returns to 15+. You lose 10 spell points upon dropping below 15. Special: You become haughty and demanding in your everyday life, suffering a -2 on all nonmagical social interactions from the scum that you are forced to share this world with. Special: Aspect of Command grants ten extra spell points, rather than 1. And yes, the social interaction penalty does counteract the Leadership bonus to a set degree. Rechecking my Cleric rules, they get spell points back in full each time they do their daily prayers in good form (time of day, incense, etc.), but only partially if they are remiss. Another thing I need to look at this morning. Maybe lose access to their higher level spells...?
#8 yeti1069 Mar 16, 2008 14:00:40	Why the increase in cost? As it is, casters are getting fewer spells per day under the system, and damage is scaled down DRAMATICALLY. My friend crunched the numbers for a sorcerer and, at their base SP allotment, they are able to dish out only about 50% as much damage. Sure, they gain increased versatility, but it really seems as though they are already giving up enough in return without then lessening the casters' spell per day even further.