Return To The Tomb Of Horrors - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Return To The Tomb Of Horrors

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Serow_Darkstar
May 03, 2005 18:11:16 Hey there. I'm getting ready to run this adventure/campaign for my players, updateing it to 3rd edition, but, I figured I would ask here for some advice, not on the rules... But, on what you think are some tricky areas for the DM, for the players, and what I can do to make things go a little more smoothly.

Now, to me, it seems that some of the puzzles are out right insane. Some of the solutions, I would never for the life of me figure out, and some of the traps seem very, very dangerous. Some of them, just very dirty.

For example... (Um... I guess a spoiler warning would be good here? I'm not sure if it counts, but, SPOILER anyway!) Being teleported out of the dungeon, without your equipment... Now, it seems to me that this will most likely hit the entire party. Because, you can't go back and warn them about what happened to you very quickly. I'm kind of worried that my players will be likely to up and quit at that point, if it happens to them. How would you guys suggest dealing with these kinds of issues, or other hazards of this most famous dungeon of total party killing? At least, from a DMs standpoint. I probably won't ever play in this dungeon, though, I wish I could!
#2
zombiegleemax
May 03, 2005 23:29:50
Hey there. I'm getting ready to run this adventure/campaign for my players, updateing it to 3rd edition, but, I figured I would ask here for some advice, not on the rules... But, on what you think are some tricky areas for the DM, for the players, and what I can do to make things go a little more smoothly.

Now, to me, it seems that some of the puzzles are out right insane. Some of the solutions, I would never for the life of me figure out, and some of the traps seem very, very dangerous. Some of them, just very dirty.

For example... (Um... I guess a spoiler warning would be good here? I'm not sure if it counts, but, SPOILER anyway!) Being teleported out of the dungeon, without your equipment... Now, it seems to me that this will most likely hit the entire party. Because, you can't go back and warn them about what happened to you very quickly. I'm kind of worried that my players will be likely to up and quit at that point, if it happens to them. How would you guys suggest dealing with these kinds of issues, or other hazards of this most famous dungeon of total party killing? At least, from a DMs standpoint. I probably won't ever play in this dungeon, though, I wish I could!

The Tomb of Horrors is the ultimate challenge for players. It is a test for players. It's SUPPOSED TO BE HARD. If you don't think your players are up to it, then don't run the Tomb of Horrors. Run something else. If you want a tough module, try I6 Ravenloft or S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojconth.
#3
zombiegleemax
May 04, 2005 11:48:18 I have to agree with DD. The Tomb of Horrors is the ultimate challenge for the ultimate group of players (I'm assuming Return to... is at least somewhat equivalent in terms of the challenge it represents). In my opinion, most players used to 3e are going to find the format of the Tomb of Horrors way out of their league. 3e is designed to shift the burden of challenge in the game onto the character, whereas Tomb of Horrors is all about challenging the player. The thesis of the adventure is completely antithetical to the design philosophy of the game you're going to be translating it into. I call that a recipe for disaster.
#4
weasel_fierce
May 04, 2005 12:54:05 I'd use a group of characters created specifically for the adventure. That way, people wont be as sour if they are wiped out.
#5
realmaster
May 05, 2005 1:41:49
I'd use a group of characters created specifically for the adventure. That way, people wont be as sour if they are wiped out.

I hate doing this because then the players take risks that they would never try with a character they have been playing from first level.
#6
Serow_Darkstar
May 05, 2005 7:12:41 Return To The Tomb of Horrors actually contains the origional Tomb of Horrors within it... As in, when you get to the tomb in the adventure, you just use the origional dungeon!

As for the transition into 3rd Edition... You're looking at it like the rules write the story. The adventure is still the same, it's just using a rules system I actually have access to now (My 2nd edition PHB got destroyed in a flood.) No matter what rules system I use, this dungeon is going to be incredibly challengeing... And I'm goading the players on, talking to them about their plans... And mentioning to them that I doubt they'll even make it into the Tomb, let alone finish the adventure. I think, that by the time I run it, they'll want to finish it just to prove me wrong.
#7
zombiegleemax
May 05, 2005 13:04:00
As for the transition into 3rd Edition... You're looking at it like the rules write the story. The adventure is still the same, it's just using a rules system I actually have access to now.

I'm looking at it like the rules train the players how to play; and 3e trains the players to depend on their character's abilities rather than their own abilities. Tomb of Horrors requires exactly the opposite. Like I said, recipe for disaster.
#8
Serow_Darkstar
May 05, 2005 18:40:06 I don't know about that: I think a DM influences the players playstyle more than any system does. My players style hasn't changed since we used to play 2nd edition. More than anything, they try to think of ways through that are interesting and intelligent.

In other words, there's no reason to blame the system for something it doesn't have control over. Using your character's abilities isn't anything to fault a player for. And I'd rather have a player keep in mind a low intelligence score and not necessarily think as hard about something instead of having a low intelligence genius. You have to have a middle ground, between the character's abilites and the players abilities. I think 3rd edition represents this fairly well, with the skills system, which can possibly make a character worse in some aspects than the player is, as far as the mental attributes go.

Your idea as it being a recipe for disaster seems to suggest to me you have issues with 3rd edition that don't need to be brought up here. It's a system of rules, for making characters and playing in a fantasy setting. It's not a training system for making players.
#9
zombiegleemax
May 05, 2005 21:23:01
And I'd rather have a player keep in mind a low intelligence score and not necessarily think as hard about something instead of having a low intelligence genius. You have to have a middle ground, between the character's abilites and the players abilities. I think 3rd edition represents this fairly well, with the skills system, which can possibly make a character worse in some aspects than the player is, as far as the mental attributes go.

Which is exactly my point. That attitude is exactly the antithesis of the philosophy behind Tomb of Horrors (i.e. testing the player's skills not the character's skills).

Your idea as it being a recipe for disaster seems to suggest to me you have issues with 3rd edition that don't need to be brought up here. It's a system of rules, for making characters and playing in a fantasy setting. It's not a training system for making players.

I think your statements above contradict your point here. You like the fact that 3e emphasizes character abilities (through the skill system) as the predominant determinant of how well a character will do in a specific situation; which is a way of "training" players to interact with the game world in a certain way. Lots of people prefer that particular aspect of the game because it "trains" players to play in such a way that accurate and consistent portrayal of character becomes a prominent feature of the game and your ability to portray character well becomes a measure of how "good" a player you are.

Again, my point is that Tomb of Horrors (unlike a lot of other very good D&D modules) is designed with a play style in mind that is 100% diametrically opposed to the idea that players limiting their intellectual input based on the abilities listed on their character sheet is a good thing.

It really has nothing to do with my opinion of 3e, which I will say right now is a great system, very well designed, for several styles of play, none of which I particularly enjoy.
#10
zombiegleemax
May 07, 2005 18:29:37 I've never heard of anyone surviving the Tomb, not sure if Return is going to change that or not. That's one module that remains on the shelf, and is likely to remain there long after I've died.
#11
lord_donnachie
May 08, 2005 9:17:07 I agree 100% that some of the puzzels/traps are impossible even for expierenced players. I simply allowed the cleric to use divination type spells for divine guidance. It worked out nicely.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Serow_Darkstar May 03, 2005 18:11:16	Hey there. I'm getting ready to run this adventure/campaign for my players, updateing it to 3rd edition, but, I figured I would ask here for some advice, not on the rules... But, on what you think are some tricky areas for the DM, for the players, and what I can do to make things go a little more smoothly. Now, to me, it seems that some of the puzzles are out right insane. Some of the solutions, I would never for the life of me figure out, and some of the traps seem very, very dangerous. Some of them, just very dirty. For example... (Um... I guess a spoiler warning would be good here? I'm not sure if it counts, but, SPOILER anyway!) Being teleported out of the dungeon, without your equipment... Now, it seems to me that this will most likely hit the entire party. Because, you can't go back and warn them about what happened to you very quickly. I'm kind of worried that my players will be likely to up and quit at that point, if it happens to them. How would you guys suggest dealing with these kinds of issues, or other hazards of this most famous dungeon of total party killing? At least, from a DMs standpoint. I probably won't ever play in this dungeon, though, I wish I could!
#2 zombiegleemax May 03, 2005 23:29:50	Hey there. I'm getting ready to run this adventure/campaign for my players, updateing it to 3rd edition, but, I figured I would ask here for some advice, not on the rules... But, on what you think are some tricky areas for the DM, for the players, and what I can do to make things go a little more smoothly. Now, to me, it seems that some of the puzzles are out right insane. Some of the solutions, I would never for the life of me figure out, and some of the traps seem very, very dangerous. Some of them, just very dirty. For example... (Um... I guess a spoiler warning would be good here? I'm not sure if it counts, but, SPOILER anyway!) Being teleported out of the dungeon, without your equipment... Now, it seems to me that this will most likely hit the entire party. Because, you can't go back and warn them about what happened to you very quickly. I'm kind of worried that my players will be likely to up and quit at that point, if it happens to them. How would you guys suggest dealing with these kinds of issues, or other hazards of this most famous dungeon of total party killing? At least, from a DMs standpoint. I probably won't ever play in this dungeon, though, I wish I could! The Tomb of Horrors is the ultimate challenge for players. It is a test for players. It's SUPPOSED TO BE HARD. If you don't think your players are up to it, then don't run the Tomb of Horrors. Run something else. If you want a tough module, try I6 Ravenloft or S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojconth.
#3 zombiegleemax May 04, 2005 11:48:18	I have to agree with DD. The Tomb of Horrors is the ultimate challenge for the ultimate group of players (I'm assuming Return to... is at least somewhat equivalent in terms of the challenge it represents). In my opinion, most players used to 3e are going to find the format of the Tomb of Horrors way out of their league. 3e is designed to shift the burden of challenge in the game onto the character, whereas Tomb of Horrors is all about challenging the player. The thesis of the adventure is completely antithetical to the design philosophy of the game you're going to be translating it into. I call that a recipe for disaster.
#4 weasel_fierce May 04, 2005 12:54:05	I'd use a group of characters created specifically for the adventure. That way, people wont be as sour if they are wiped out.
#5 realmaster May 05, 2005 1:41:49	I'd use a group of characters created specifically for the adventure. That way, people wont be as sour if they are wiped out. I hate doing this because then the players take risks that they would never try with a character they have been playing from first level.
#6 Serow_Darkstar May 05, 2005 7:12:41	Return To The Tomb of Horrors actually contains the origional Tomb of Horrors within it... As in, when you get to the tomb in the adventure, you just use the origional dungeon! As for the transition into 3rd Edition... You're looking at it like the rules write the story. The adventure is still the same, it's just using a rules system I actually have access to now (My 2nd edition PHB got destroyed in a flood.) No matter what rules system I use, this dungeon is going to be incredibly challengeing... And I'm goading the players on, talking to them about their plans... And mentioning to them that I doubt they'll even make it into the Tomb, let alone finish the adventure. I think, that by the time I run it, they'll want to finish it just to prove me wrong.
#7 zombiegleemax May 05, 2005 13:04:00	As for the transition into 3rd Edition... You're looking at it like the rules write the story. The adventure is still the same, it's just using a rules system I actually have access to now. I'm looking at it like the rules train the players how to play; and 3e trains the players to depend on their character's abilities rather than their own abilities. Tomb of Horrors requires exactly the opposite. Like I said, recipe for disaster.
#8 Serow_Darkstar May 05, 2005 18:40:06	I don't know about that: I think a DM influences the players playstyle more than any system does. My players style hasn't changed since we used to play 2nd edition. More than anything, they try to think of ways through that are interesting and intelligent. In other words, there's no reason to blame the system for something it doesn't have control over. Using your character's abilities isn't anything to fault a player for. And I'd rather have a player keep in mind a low intelligence score and not necessarily think as hard about something instead of having a low intelligence genius. You have to have a middle ground, between the character's abilites and the players abilities. I think 3rd edition represents this fairly well, with the skills system, which can possibly make a character worse in some aspects than the player is, as far as the mental attributes go. Your idea as it being a recipe for disaster seems to suggest to me you have issues with 3rd edition that don't need to be brought up here. It's a system of rules, for making characters and playing in a fantasy setting. It's not a training system for making players.
#9 zombiegleemax May 05, 2005 21:23:01	And I'd rather have a player keep in mind a low intelligence score and not necessarily think as hard about something instead of having a low intelligence genius. You have to have a middle ground, between the character's abilites and the players abilities. I think 3rd edition represents this fairly well, with the skills system, which can possibly make a character worse in some aspects than the player is, as far as the mental attributes go. Which is exactly my point. That attitude is exactly the antithesis of the philosophy behind Tomb of Horrors (i.e. testing the player's skills not the character's skills). Your idea as it being a recipe for disaster seems to suggest to me you have issues with 3rd edition that don't need to be brought up here. It's a system of rules, for making characters and playing in a fantasy setting. It's not a training system for making players. I think your statements above contradict your point here. You like the fact that 3e emphasizes character abilities (through the skill system) as the predominant determinant of how well a character will do in a specific situation; which is a way of "training" players to interact with the game world in a certain way. Lots of people prefer that particular aspect of the game because it "trains" players to play in such a way that accurate and consistent portrayal of character becomes a prominent feature of the game and your ability to portray character well becomes a measure of how "good" a player you are. Again, my point is that Tomb of Horrors (unlike a lot of other very good D&D modules) is designed with a play style in mind that is 100% diametrically opposed to the idea that players limiting their intellectual input based on the abilities listed on their character sheet is a good thing. It really has nothing to do with my opinion of 3e, which I will say right now is a great system, very well designed, for several styles of play, none of which I particularly enjoy.
#10 zombiegleemax May 07, 2005 18:29:37	I've never heard of anyone surviving the Tomb, not sure if Return is going to change that or not. That's one module that remains on the shelf, and is likely to remain there long after I've died.
#11 lord_donnachie May 08, 2005 9:17:07	I agree 100% that some of the puzzels/traps are impossible even for expierenced players. I simply allowed the cleric to use divination type spells for divine guidance. It worked out nicely.