Slow Trait and Slow Flaw - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Slow Trait and Slow Flaw

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
tos_shai_hulud
Apr 12, 2008 15:00:33 Can one take both the Slow Trait and the Slow Flaw? Do they stack (so that your base land speed is quartered)? Must you have at least a 40 base land speed to be able to take them both?
#2
evil_dm_mk3
Apr 12, 2008 19:04:26 Rules say, probably.

Sane DM says, hells no.

So it is probably a moot point (especially as traits and flaws are heavily in the realm of If The DM Allows It) with sanity saying no.
#3
half_dragon_infernal
Apr 12, 2008 22:03:52 The slow flaw is actually better than the trait because of Improved Toughness. The slow trait is equivalent of the slow flaw and taking improved toughness.
#4
orenmir
Apr 16, 2008 9:31:20
Can one take both the Slow Trait and the Slow Flaw? Do they stack (so that your base land speed is quartered)? Must you have at least a 40 base land speed to be able to take them both?

I just gotta ask... Why would you want to? Your standard 30 speed gets reduced to 5! I guess if you're a Barbarian or a Monk or something else with improved speed you can compensate, but still - quite a drawback.
#5
tos_shai_hulud
Apr 17, 2008 10:46:05
I just gotta ask... Why would you want to? Your standard 30 speed gets reduced to 5! I guess if you're a Barbarian or a Monk or something else with improved speed you can compensate, but still - quite a drawback.

Actually, you would have to be a race with a minimum of 40 ft. movement, as both require you to have a 20 ft. base speed before taking them. I was wondering if it was possible. Perhaps you are playing an outdoors campaign, and you want your Ogre fighter to always be mounted atop his war elephant?
#6
orenmir
Apr 17, 2008 11:26:46
Actually, you would have to be a race with a minimum of 40 ft. movement, as both require you to have a 20 ft. base speed before taking them. I was wondering if it was possible. Perhaps you are playing an outdoors campaign, and you want your Ogre fighter to always be mounted atop his war elephant?

If that's the case, it would be a good example of blatant flaw abuse. A good DM would immediately disallow it. A flaw is something a PC must actually receive penalty for. If you find a way to be able to ignore a flaw, then it really isn't a flaw. The rules in UA specifically go over this.

A flaw must have a meaningful effect regardless of character class or role.

#7
tos_shai_hulud
Apr 17, 2008 23:04:57
If that's the case, it would be a good example of blatant flaw abuse. A good DM would immediately disallow it. A flaw is something a PC must actually receive penalty for. If you find a way to be able to ignore a flaw, then it really isn't a flaw. The rules in UA specifically go over this.

I disagree completely. A player, no matter how flawed, finds a way to overcome his flaw by using his strengths. A character who is that slow may absolutely refuse to walk! If the party must travel into a cave, and his war elephant will not fit with him, I'd consider that a pretty major flaw!

Just because the flaw doesn't harm a player at all times does not make it flaw abuse. Any DM who does everything to suit a player's strengths and nothing to challenge his weaknesses is tailoring his game in such a way that I can't imagine it being fun! What is he doing, looking over everyone's character sheets and finding every flaw so that he can avoid situations where it will be detrimental? Any flaw that a character has will potentially be detrimental if the DM is worth anything.
#8
staple
Apr 24, 2008 7:38:05 The house rule around my neck of the woods is that any flaw taken has to be relevant to the build. For example, no Monks taking Shaky (-2 to ranged attack rolls). I'd say anyone who's willing to sacrifice any given attribute to that degree is going to do his best to make it irrelevant. The analogous situation is whenever someone decides to be a Gray Elf Necropolitan when we're building on point buy.
#9
roguewiz_dup
Apr 24, 2008 8:36:24 If a player is willing to sacrafice that much movement for extra hp and a feat, who am I to argue.

40 Ft > 20 Ft > 10 Ft
30 Ft > 15 Ft > 5 Ft
20 Ft > 10 Ft

However, the rules are vage in regards to taking both. If your Race has a base land speed of 20, with the trait, it becomes 10. Thus you can't take the Flaw. Same goes with a base of 30 Ft. If you take the trait, your movement becomes 15 ft. Which is too low for the Flaw.

I see where it can be exploitive if you have a 40 Base Movement. However, 10 Base movement is pretty bad. That means:

10 - Base Movement
20 - Double Move
40 - Run
#10
orenmir
Apr 24, 2008 8:42:23
I disagree completely. A player, no matter how flawed, finds a way to overcome his flaw by using his strengths. A character who is that slow may absolutely refuse to walk! If the party must travel into a cave, and his war elephant will not fit with him, I'd consider that a pretty major flaw!

Just because the flaw doesn't harm a player at all times does not make it flaw abuse. Any DM who does everything to suit a player's strengths and nothing to challenge his weaknesses is tailoring his game in such a way that I can't imagine it being fun! What is he doing, looking over everyone's character sheets and finding every flaw so that he can avoid situations where it will be detrimental? Any flaw that a character has will potentially be detrimental if the DM is worth anything.

A flaw must completely balance a feat. If the character finds a way to negate or ignore a flaw, you might as well just hand out feats for free. IMO, free feats unbalance the game -- unless, of course, all the monsters get free feats too. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tos_shai_hulud Apr 12, 2008 15:00:33	Can one take both the Slow Trait and the Slow Flaw? Do they stack (so that your base land speed is quartered)? Must you have at least a 40 base land speed to be able to take them both?
#2 evil_dm_mk3 Apr 12, 2008 19:04:26	Rules say, probably. Sane DM says, hells no. So it is probably a moot point (especially as traits and flaws are heavily in the realm of If The DM Allows It) with sanity saying no.
#3 half_dragon_infernal Apr 12, 2008 22:03:52	The slow flaw is actually better than the trait because of Improved Toughness. The slow trait is equivalent of the slow flaw and taking improved toughness.
#4 orenmir Apr 16, 2008 9:31:20	Can one take both the Slow Trait and the Slow Flaw? Do they stack (so that your base land speed is quartered)? Must you have at least a 40 base land speed to be able to take them both? I just gotta ask... Why would you want to? Your standard 30 speed gets reduced to 5! I guess if you're a Barbarian or a Monk or something else with improved speed you can compensate, but still - quite a drawback.
#5 tos_shai_hulud Apr 17, 2008 10:46:05	I just gotta ask... Why would you want to? Your standard 30 speed gets reduced to 5! I guess if you're a Barbarian or a Monk or something else with improved speed you can compensate, but still - quite a drawback. Actually, you would have to be a race with a minimum of 40 ft. movement, as both require you to have a 20 ft. base speed before taking them. I was wondering if it was possible. Perhaps you are playing an outdoors campaign, and you want your Ogre fighter to always be mounted atop his war elephant?
#6 orenmir Apr 17, 2008 11:26:46	Actually, you would have to be a race with a minimum of 40 ft. movement, as both require you to have a 20 ft. base speed before taking them. I was wondering if it was possible. Perhaps you are playing an outdoors campaign, and you want your Ogre fighter to always be mounted atop his war elephant? If that's the case, it would be a good example of blatant flaw abuse. A good DM would immediately disallow it. A flaw is something a PC must actually receive penalty for. If you find a way to be able to ignore a flaw, then it really isn't a flaw. The rules in UA specifically go over this. A flaw must have a meaningful effect regardless of character class or role.
#7 tos_shai_hulud Apr 17, 2008 23:04:57	If that's the case, it would be a good example of blatant flaw abuse. A good DM would immediately disallow it. A flaw is something a PC must actually receive penalty for. If you find a way to be able to ignore a flaw, then it really isn't a flaw. The rules in UA specifically go over this. I disagree completely. A player, no matter how flawed, finds a way to overcome his flaw by using his strengths. A character who is that slow may absolutely refuse to walk! If the party must travel into a cave, and his war elephant will not fit with him, I'd consider that a pretty major flaw! Just because the flaw doesn't harm a player at all times does not make it flaw abuse. Any DM who does everything to suit a player's strengths and nothing to challenge his weaknesses is tailoring his game in such a way that I can't imagine it being fun! What is he doing, looking over everyone's character sheets and finding every flaw so that he can avoid situations where it will be detrimental? Any flaw that a character has will potentially be detrimental if the DM is worth anything.
#8 staple Apr 24, 2008 7:38:05	The house rule around my neck of the woods is that any flaw taken has to be relevant to the build. For example, no Monks taking Shaky (-2 to ranged attack rolls). I'd say anyone who's willing to sacrifice any given attribute to that degree is going to do his best to make it irrelevant. The analogous situation is whenever someone decides to be a Gray Elf Necropolitan when we're building on point buy.
#9 roguewiz_dup Apr 24, 2008 8:36:24	If a player is willing to sacrafice that much movement for extra hp and a feat, who am I to argue. 40 Ft > 20 Ft > 10 Ft 30 Ft > 15 Ft > 5 Ft 20 Ft > 10 Ft However, the rules are vage in regards to taking both. If your Race has a base land speed of 20, with the trait, it becomes 10. Thus you can't take the Flaw. Same goes with a base of 30 Ft. If you take the trait, your movement becomes 15 ft. Which is too low for the Flaw. I see where it can be exploitive if you have a 40 Base Movement. However, 10 Base movement is pretty bad. That means: 10 - Base Movement 20 - Double Move 40 - Run
#10 orenmir Apr 24, 2008 8:42:23	I disagree completely. A player, no matter how flawed, finds a way to overcome his flaw by using his strengths. A character who is that slow may absolutely refuse to walk! If the party must travel into a cave, and his war elephant will not fit with him, I'd consider that a pretty major flaw! Just because the flaw doesn't harm a player at all times does not make it flaw abuse. Any DM who does everything to suit a player's strengths and nothing to challenge his weaknesses is tailoring his game in such a way that I can't imagine it being fun! What is he doing, looking over everyone's character sheets and finding every flaw so that he can avoid situations where it will be detrimental? Any flaw that a character has will potentially be detrimental if the DM is worth anything. A flaw must completely balance a feat. If the character finds a way to negate or ignore a flaw, you might as well just hand out feats for free. IMO, free feats unbalance the game -- unless, of course, all the monsters get free feats too. ;)