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Spellcasting Languages

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Oct 25, 2006 18:19:55 In the Players Handbook, the particular words and gestures used to cast a spell remain intentionally vague. Though it is assumed that the words to spells are cryptic bits of obscure languages, the specifics are left up to the imagination. Sometimes, however, for campaign purposes, these “spell languages” can be useful.

For example, in Harry Potter, all of the spells are based off of Latin, the mostly forgotten root of the romance languages. The wizards Harry meets from other countries, such as France and Belgium, cast spells the same way he does, because they share a common root. But what about, for example, the wizards in Japan? Likely, having had no exposure to Latin or that entire branch of languages, their spell language would be very different, though it would perhaps be shared with the Chinese and the Koreans. If Harry met a Japanese wizard and the two engaged in a duel, though they might cast very similar spells, each would have very little idea what the other is doing, because they are unfamiliar with the language of the other.

These rules on spell languages are designed to reproduce these cultural or linguistic differences in magic, and can be used to add rules to support the normally “in game” assumption that magic is different depending on where you learned it. Mix and match these rules as you see fit.

Gaining a Language
When gaining the first level in an arcane spellcasting class, a character (or their DM) selects a spell language. (For examples, see below, under the heading “In my campaign:”) This language does nothing to limit the selection, power, saving throws, or any other property of the spells he casts. Spell languages may also be learned by spending feats. (See below under “New Feat:”)

Other Languages
When a character encounters spells not in his “Native Language,” he suffered various penalties. In addition, people who don’t know the language the character uses suffer penalties when dealing with his magic.

The DC to identify a spell as it is being cast increases by ten, making it more difficult to counter spells in a different language. The DC to learn a spell from a spell book or scroll and the DC to prepare a spell from another spell book all increase by ten if you don’t know the spell language. In addition, you cannot apply metamagic feats to spells prepared in a language you don’t know. In essence, learning a spell in a spell language you don’t know is like learning a phrase in a real language you don’t know: you can memorize it by phonetics, but you have no idea really what you’re saying.

In addition, a character’s read magic spell doesn’t automatically decipher spellbooks and scrolls in a different language. If a character prepares a read magic spell in a different language than his own, (for example, from a borrowed spellbook) the results he gets are incomprehensible to him.

Finally, when attempting to dispel a spell from another language, a character suffers a -2 penalty to his caster level check.

New Feat: Hybrid Magic
You use a hybrid form of magic involving your spell casting language and another.

When you select this feat, pick a spell casting language besides your normal one. You now know this language as well as any other, and suffer no penalties when dealing with this kind of magic. In addition, when preparing (or casting, if a spontaneous caster) a spell with your magic, you can choose to do so in either one language, the other, or use elements of both to create a hybrid spell familiar to speakers of both languages but completely understood by neither. When dealing with hybrid spells, people who know either language take a -5 penalty to identify it and a -1 penalty in caster level checks to dispel it, and only avoid the penalties entirely if they also know both languages by taking the hybrid spell feat. A wizard may take this spell as a bonus feat. You may take this spell multiple times. Each time, it allows you to learn another spell language, and your hybrid spells are only completely comprehendible to those who know all the languages you do.

In My Campaign
In my campaign, spell languages are based upon where the power originates from. Wizards usually cast spells in Draconic, because they were taught by the gold dragons in ancient times and have been passing the art along ever since. Some wizards cast spells in Infernal or Abyssal, having learned the wizardly arts from less savory sources. Sorcerers generally cast spells in Draconic, because they have a touch of dragons blood in their veins, but sorcerers who have their powers because of the blood of spell casting outsiders such as raksasha or demons find their spell language is Infernal or Abyssal. Paladins, as a rule, cast spells in Celestial. Clerics cast spells in their deity’s tongue, with good clerics in Celestial and evil ones in Abyssal or Infernal and clerics of Bahamut or Tiamat casting spells in Draconic. Druids cast spells in Sylvan, though there are a few druid circles dedicated to Ehlonna that cast spells in Celestial. Bards can cast spells in any language, depending on what exactly they were able to pick up.

Other Rules
Obviously, all of these rules are optional, but the ones below are more optional than the others.

Language familiarity: If a character knows the regular version of the spell language, they can over come some of the penalties they suffer, and sometimes even characters with no magical training can recognize spells (A professor of Latin would know the gist of a petrificus totalus spell if placed in the Harry Potter world, for example.) A character who knows the regular version of a spell language may make spellcraft checks to identify spells being cast and to decipher scrolls and spellbooks at a minus five penalty instead of a minus ten. A character may even do this without any ranks in spellcraft. Without any means of casting a spell, this knowledge will be of limited use.

For example, Jarvis’ only spell language is draconic, but he knows Abyssal as a normal language. To identify a magic missile spell cast in draconic, he needs to beat DC 16. To identify a magic missile spell cast in Abyssal, he must beat DC 21. To identify a magic missile spell cast in Infernal, he must succeed at a DC 26 check.

Another example: Kalik is told by a wizard he doesn’t completely trust not to resist the next spell cast on him, because it’ll be a spell that will increase his strength. (In game terms, “fail the next save so I can be sure my bull’s strength spell will work on you.”) Kalik knows draconic, and that happens to be the spell language the wizard is using. Rolling high on an untrained spellcraft check, he realizes that the wizard is actually casting sleep in him, and tries to shake off the spell as he feels it taking effect.

Harder identification: If you wish to really drive in the differences between different spell casting languages, you can increase the penalty to cross-language learning to 15, 20, or even prohibit it entirely.

Alignment casting: In your world, you may wish to make the differences between languages more than just different words. Perhaps casting spells in Infernal is inherently evil and casting spells in Celestial is inherently good. Using this variant, spells with the alignment based descriptors (such as unholy blight) are unavailable to a spell caster using a diametrically opposing spell language. You could drive in the differences even further by giving outsiders energy resistance or spell resistance that can only be bypassed by people with certain spell languages (much like damage reduction.)
#2
elondir
Nov 10, 2006 13:48:27 That is an interesting idea. It can also be taken care of by increasing the spellcraft DC to identify spells being cast by 5 or 10 for classes that the character does not have levels in, that are from a different culture (such as a wizard identifying a wu jen spell being cast). That would make the DC between 20+spell level or 25+spell level.
#3
garble_willowwits_02
Nov 10, 2006 14:21:21 That's really a brilliant idea. Have you ever read or seen Negima? The Western magic, since it takes place in Japan mostly, uses Latin as it's language. Except it's not the shredded stuff you find in Harry Potter. More of it focuses on different elements and such though, so it might not fit well with D&D, and it's also mostly a glorified series of Magic Missile and whatnot.

The Eastern mages focus more on magical totems and such rather than incantations. I don't have any of my books with me right now, but I'll read some more about it later.

I really like the idea of having bonuses and penalties depending on how familiar you are with the casting language, but I'm wondering if it could be taken a step further, and add a few different types of casting techniques, such as using wands, staves, or more obscure things like beads or rings. Especially with Sorcerers, not everyone is going to cast a spell exactly the same way, but there will be noticeable similarities.
#4
zombiegleemax
Nov 10, 2006 17:51:50 Very nice. I've had thoughts similar to this for my own campaign but haven't even begun to flesh it out like this. I like the detail.

One thing I think would make sense to add is a feat or skill to learn new spellcasting languages for scholastic purposes only. You wouldn't cast spells in the language but you would have enough study in them to read texts in them as well as identify spells being cast in that languages.
#5
blainetog
Nov 10, 2006 18:05:45 It's a nice idea, but, like all attempts to impose linguistic realism on D&D, far more trouble than it's worth. There really isn't any reason to do something like this. Like "Common" (such an absurd concept that looking at it for more than a passing second causes even it to bend over laughing), it's really best to just assume they're all using the same thing.
#6
stargate525
Nov 10, 2006 21:36:02 A very nice system. Congratulations on pulling it off to good effect.

I do, however, have one question. With the hybrid spell, people who know one of the languages get only a -5, same with knowing the normal version of the language. My question is whether these stack. For instance, if someone casts a hybrid spell in draconic and infernal, and the person identifying it knows the draconic spell language as well as the normal version of infernal, what would the negative be?
#7
grey_mage
Nov 11, 2006 12:29:10 I was under the impression that the language of magic was Draconic, something fairly universal to all cultures in a standard D&D game. This being reflected by it being on a list of bonus languages for spell casters *something that seems to have dropped off outside of the PHB, but is none the less important*.

I do enjoy the idea, but I wonder how you over looked this?
#8
katarl
Nov 11, 2006 14:14:11 Are spells cast in any understandable language? I don't think they would be, since the words themselves are meant to have power, to the extent that you need to expend power just to use them, in a similar way to the words of creation, or dark speech. You can't say the words to magic missile, for example, without using a slot, and expect it to work. Also, what would happen if you said the words by accident?

If you believe that these spells can be in any language, then it would be the intent or understanding of these words that would give them power. Why then use words at all? You might defend this with silent spell of course, but the general idea is that these words have power in themselves. You can't rattle off the words of a celestial's shopping list that you believe to be esoteric and expect it to work magic.

'Translating' the language of magic wouldn't work either. I think you would have one language of 'spellcasting', purely for casting and not for communicating. Draconic, Infernal and other languages associated with magic would not have any power in themselves, but most treatises written on the subject would be written in these languages, simply because their users got to magic first.

You mention Harry potters Latin- if a muggle were to say, the words to a levitation spell, would he not fly up into the air because he cannot 'say' the words (unlikely, since many others can speak Latin), or is the force behind these words making the effect? That understood, why are magical words so necessary for spellcasting?
#9
drmorganes
Nov 11, 2006 16:16:54 Gah! Talk about unnecessary complications. I believe somewhere (perhaps the DMG?) the rules actually state that magic in D&D uses a common frame of reference, rather more like mathematics than an actual language. Spells may be recorded in various languages, like Draconic, Ignan, Infernal, Abyssal, Celestial, etc, but a simple Read Magic gets one around all that nastiness to allow one to examine the important bits of the spell.

It's rather like picking up a Japanese mathbook. If you know the concepts, you'll likely be able to make sense of the actually mathematic notations. However, unless you read Japanese (or have a translator) you're out of luck when trying to decipher the notations and explanations. In RAW D&D, Read Magic takes care of reading the notations, while the Spellcraft skill takes care of things relating to the actual casting of magic. Less than realistic? Perhaps, if you're apt to argue realism in a fantasy RPG, but it makes things easy.

Easy is good. Easy is fast. Easy keeps the game moving.

In short, tweak as much as you like at your table, but I think the additions you propose are unnecessarily complicating.
#10
pmurray%40bigpond.com
Nov 11, 2006 23:43:23 Another reasonable benefit of Hybrid Magic would be bonuses to researching new spells, because the caster has a wider set of options to work with. Handy in a campaign where spellbooks and scrolls are hard to come by.
#11
theotherdraxen
Nov 12, 2006 12:03:06 I like the flavor of this houserule, but I do have a few questions:

Have you had a chance to try this out in your campaign? Magic is already very complex and time consuming, does this add more to it? Languages change over time. Does this impact the nature of the magic in any way?

How does a language invoke magic? What do the words themselves have to do with casting a spell (in game world terms)? Is it possible to accidentally cast a spell while speaking dragonic? In your Harry Potter example, one Roman might petrify the other by telling his story about how tired he was in the morning: "I was so exhausted, I felt like I was totally petrified!"

I do really like the new feat option: it adds a tactical portion to casting a spell beyond what's normally there. Now, spellcasters from different countries are going to see differences in their casting all the way down to the spells themselves (the Wu Jen and the Wizard now see an even greater cultural gap). Plus, it adds another layer of verisimilitude.
#12
concerro
Nov 12, 2006 23:48:55 I consider magic to be based on a formulas kind of like math, and that makes it universal. The reason read magic is useful is because not everyone solves problems the same way and read magic allows you to understand the way that person formulated the spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Oct 25, 2006 18:19:55	In the Players Handbook, the particular words and gestures used to cast a spell remain intentionally vague. Though it is assumed that the words to spells are cryptic bits of obscure languages, the specifics are left up to the imagination. Sometimes, however, for campaign purposes, these “spell languages” can be useful. For example, in Harry Potter, all of the spells are based off of Latin, the mostly forgotten root of the romance languages. The wizards Harry meets from other countries, such as France and Belgium, cast spells the same way he does, because they share a common root. But what about, for example, the wizards in Japan? Likely, having had no exposure to Latin or that entire branch of languages, their spell language would be very different, though it would perhaps be shared with the Chinese and the Koreans. If Harry met a Japanese wizard and the two engaged in a duel, though they might cast very similar spells, each would have very little idea what the other is doing, because they are unfamiliar with the language of the other. These rules on spell languages are designed to reproduce these cultural or linguistic differences in magic, and can be used to add rules to support the normally “in game” assumption that magic is different depending on where you learned it. Mix and match these rules as you see fit. Gaining a Language When gaining the first level in an arcane spellcasting class, a character (or their DM) selects a spell language. (For examples, see below, under the heading “In my campaign:”) This language does nothing to limit the selection, power, saving throws, or any other property of the spells he casts. Spell languages may also be learned by spending feats. (See below under “New Feat:”) Other Languages When a character encounters spells not in his “Native Language,” he suffered various penalties. In addition, people who don’t know the language the character uses suffer penalties when dealing with his magic. The DC to identify a spell as it is being cast increases by ten, making it more difficult to counter spells in a different language. The DC to learn a spell from a spell book or scroll and the DC to prepare a spell from another spell book all increase by ten if you don’t know the spell language. In addition, you cannot apply metamagic feats to spells prepared in a language you don’t know. In essence, learning a spell in a spell language you don’t know is like learning a phrase in a real language you don’t know: you can memorize it by phonetics, but you have no idea really what you’re saying. In addition, a character’s read magic spell doesn’t automatically decipher spellbooks and scrolls in a different language. If a character prepares a read magic spell in a different language than his own, (for example, from a borrowed spellbook) the results he gets are incomprehensible to him. Finally, when attempting to dispel a spell from another language, a character suffers a -2 penalty to his caster level check. New Feat: Hybrid Magic You use a hybrid form of magic involving your spell casting language and another. When you select this feat, pick a spell casting language besides your normal one. You now know this language as well as any other, and suffer no penalties when dealing with this kind of magic. In addition, when preparing (or casting, if a spontaneous caster) a spell with your magic, you can choose to do so in either one language, the other, or use elements of both to create a hybrid spell familiar to speakers of both languages but completely understood by neither. When dealing with hybrid spells, people who know either language take a -5 penalty to identify it and a -1 penalty in caster level checks to dispel it, and only avoid the penalties entirely if they also know both languages by taking the hybrid spell feat. A wizard may take this spell as a bonus feat. You may take this spell multiple times. Each time, it allows you to learn another spell language, and your hybrid spells are only completely comprehendible to those who know all the languages you do. In My Campaign In my campaign, spell languages are based upon where the power originates from. Wizards usually cast spells in Draconic, because they were taught by the gold dragons in ancient times and have been passing the art along ever since. Some wizards cast spells in Infernal or Abyssal, having learned the wizardly arts from less savory sources. Sorcerers generally cast spells in Draconic, because they have a touch of dragons blood in their veins, but sorcerers who have their powers because of the blood of spell casting outsiders such as raksasha or demons find their spell language is Infernal or Abyssal. Paladins, as a rule, cast spells in Celestial. Clerics cast spells in their deity’s tongue, with good clerics in Celestial and evil ones in Abyssal or Infernal and clerics of Bahamut or Tiamat casting spells in Draconic. Druids cast spells in Sylvan, though there are a few druid circles dedicated to Ehlonna that cast spells in Celestial. Bards can cast spells in any language, depending on what exactly they were able to pick up. Other Rules Obviously, all of these rules are optional, but the ones below are more optional than the others. Language familiarity: If a character knows the regular version of the spell language, they can over come some of the penalties they suffer, and sometimes even characters with no magical training can recognize spells (A professor of Latin would know the gist of a petrificus totalus spell if placed in the Harry Potter world, for example.) A character who knows the regular version of a spell language may make spellcraft checks to identify spells being cast and to decipher scrolls and spellbooks at a minus five penalty instead of a minus ten. A character may even do this without any ranks in spellcraft. Without any means of casting a spell, this knowledge will be of limited use. For example, Jarvis’ only spell language is draconic, but he knows Abyssal as a normal language. To identify a magic missile spell cast in draconic, he needs to beat DC 16. To identify a magic missile spell cast in Abyssal, he must beat DC 21. To identify a magic missile spell cast in Infernal, he must succeed at a DC 26 check. Another example: Kalik is told by a wizard he doesn’t completely trust not to resist the next spell cast on him, because it’ll be a spell that will increase his strength. (In game terms, “fail the next save so I can be sure my bull’s strength spell will work on you.”) Kalik knows draconic, and that happens to be the spell language the wizard is using. Rolling high on an untrained spellcraft check, he realizes that the wizard is actually casting sleep in him, and tries to shake off the spell as he feels it taking effect. Harder identification: If you wish to really drive in the differences between different spell casting languages, you can increase the penalty to cross-language learning to 15, 20, or even prohibit it entirely. Alignment casting: In your world, you may wish to make the differences between languages more than just different words. Perhaps casting spells in Infernal is inherently evil and casting spells in Celestial is inherently good. Using this variant, spells with the alignment based descriptors (such as unholy blight) are unavailable to a spell caster using a diametrically opposing spell language. You could drive in the differences even further by giving outsiders energy resistance or spell resistance that can only be bypassed by people with certain spell languages (much like damage reduction.)
#2 elondir Nov 10, 2006 13:48:27	That is an interesting idea. It can also be taken care of by increasing the spellcraft DC to identify spells being cast by 5 or 10 for classes that the character does not have levels in, that are from a different culture (such as a wizard identifying a wu jen spell being cast). That would make the DC between 20+spell level or 25+spell level.
#3 garble_willowwits_02 Nov 10, 2006 14:21:21	That's really a brilliant idea. Have you ever read or seen Negima? The Western magic, since it takes place in Japan mostly, uses Latin as it's language. Except it's not the shredded stuff you find in Harry Potter. More of it focuses on different elements and such though, so it might not fit well with D&D, and it's also mostly a glorified series of Magic Missile and whatnot. The Eastern mages focus more on magical totems and such rather than incantations. I don't have any of my books with me right now, but I'll read some more about it later. I really like the idea of having bonuses and penalties depending on how familiar you are with the casting language, but I'm wondering if it could be taken a step further, and add a few different types of casting techniques, such as using wands, staves, or more obscure things like beads or rings. Especially with Sorcerers, not everyone is going to cast a spell exactly the same way, but there will be noticeable similarities.
#4 zombiegleemax Nov 10, 2006 17:51:50	Very nice. I've had thoughts similar to this for my own campaign but haven't even begun to flesh it out like this. I like the detail. One thing I think would make sense to add is a feat or skill to learn new spellcasting languages for scholastic purposes only. You wouldn't cast spells in the language but you would have enough study in them to read texts in them as well as identify spells being cast in that languages.
#5 blainetog Nov 10, 2006 18:05:45	It's a nice idea, but, like all attempts to impose linguistic realism on D&D, far more trouble than it's worth. There really isn't any reason to do something like this. Like "Common" (such an absurd concept that looking at it for more than a passing second causes even it to bend over laughing), it's really best to just assume they're all using the same thing.
#6 stargate525 Nov 10, 2006 21:36:02	A very nice system. Congratulations on pulling it off to good effect. I do, however, have one question. With the hybrid spell, people who know one of the languages get only a -5, same with knowing the normal version of the language. My question is whether these stack. For instance, if someone casts a hybrid spell in draconic and infernal, and the person identifying it knows the draconic spell language as well as the normal version of infernal, what would the negative be?
#7 grey_mage Nov 11, 2006 12:29:10	I was under the impression that the language of magic was Draconic, something fairly universal to all cultures in a standard D&D game. This being reflected by it being on a list of bonus languages for spell casters something that seems to have dropped off outside of the PHB, but is none the less important. I do enjoy the idea, but I wonder how you over looked this?
#8 katarl Nov 11, 2006 14:14:11	Are spells cast in any understandable language? I don't think they would be, since the words themselves are meant to have power, to the extent that you need to expend power just to use them, in a similar way to the words of creation, or dark speech. You can't say the words to magic missile, for example, without using a slot, and expect it to work. Also, what would happen if you said the words by accident? If you believe that these spells can be in any language, then it would be the intent or understanding of these words that would give them power. Why then use words at all? You might defend this with silent spell of course, but the general idea is that these words have power in themselves. You can't rattle off the words of a celestial's shopping list that you believe to be esoteric and expect it to work magic. 'Translating' the language of magic wouldn't work either. I think you would have one language of 'spellcasting', purely for casting and not for communicating. Draconic, Infernal and other languages associated with magic would not have any power in themselves, but most treatises written on the subject would be written in these languages, simply because their users got to magic first. You mention Harry potters Latin- if a muggle were to say, the words to a levitation spell, would he not fly up into the air because he cannot 'say' the words (unlikely, since many others can speak Latin), or is the force behind these words making the effect? That understood, why are magical words so necessary for spellcasting?
#9 drmorganes Nov 11, 2006 16:16:54	Gah! Talk about unnecessary complications. I believe somewhere (perhaps the DMG?) the rules actually state that magic in D&D uses a common frame of reference, rather more like mathematics than an actual language. Spells may be recorded in various languages, like Draconic, Ignan, Infernal, Abyssal, Celestial, etc, but a simple Read Magic gets one around all that nastiness to allow one to examine the important bits of the spell. It's rather like picking up a Japanese mathbook. If you know the concepts, you'll likely be able to make sense of the actually mathematic notations. However, unless you read Japanese (or have a translator) you're out of luck when trying to decipher the notations and explanations. In RAW D&D, Read Magic takes care of reading the notations, while the Spellcraft skill takes care of things relating to the actual casting of magic. Less than realistic? Perhaps, if you're apt to argue realism in a fantasy RPG, but it makes things easy. Easy is good. Easy is fast. Easy keeps the game moving. In short, tweak as much as you like at your table, but I think the additions you propose are unnecessarily complicating.
#10 pmurray%40bigpond.com Nov 11, 2006 23:43:23	Another reasonable benefit of Hybrid Magic would be bonuses to researching new spells, because the caster has a wider set of options to work with. Handy in a campaign where spellbooks and scrolls are hard to come by.
#11 theotherdraxen Nov 12, 2006 12:03:06	I like the flavor of this houserule, but I do have a few questions: Have you had a chance to try this out in your campaign? Magic is already very complex and time consuming, does this add more to it? Languages change over time. Does this impact the nature of the magic in any way? How does a language invoke magic? What do the words themselves have to do with casting a spell (in game world terms)? Is it possible to accidentally cast a spell while speaking dragonic? In your Harry Potter example, one Roman might petrify the other by telling his story about how tired he was in the morning: "I was so exhausted, I felt like I was totally petrified!" I do really like the new feat option: it adds a tactical portion to casting a spell beyond what's normally there. Now, spellcasters from different countries are going to see differences in their casting all the way down to the spells themselves (the Wu Jen and the Wizard now see an even greater cultural gap). Plus, it adds another layer of verisimilitude.
#12 concerro Nov 12, 2006 23:48:55	I consider magic to be based on a formulas kind of like math, and that makes it universal. The reason read magic is useful is because not everyone solves problems the same way and read magic allows you to understand the way that person formulated the spell.