I’m going to attempt to explain things as much as possible within the core rules, but I’m also going to include some house rules and suggested rulings to make things work more consistently, clearly, or smoothly. I will note in the text when I deviate from the printed rules or when I am interpreting them. I will also be referring to the rogue a great deal in this article. I’m using the rogue since hiding often affects his ability to sneak attack and such circumstances will be mentioned from time to time. However you can substitute any character attempting to hide or sneak for the rogue mentioned in this article. I will also be assuming that the character in question has a move speed of 30 feet in all examples.
Here are the basic rules for a hidden subject extrapolated from the rules for an invisible subject:
Hidden: Someone who is visually undetected. A hidden person gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents and denies the opponent any dexterity bonus to AC he may have. If for some reason an attacker strikes into a square that contains a hidden enemy the attacker has a 50% miss chance. (Such as if he heard the enemy, but has not visually located him and attacks the square that he believes the enemy occupies). Note: strictly speaking it is a house rule to treat a hidden subject as invisible and grant the benefits of being an invisible attacker, however it makes sense and this article will assume that hidden attackers have that benefit.
Next I’ll address some common stealth affecting factors and issues:
Cover: A rogue may attempt a Hide check if he has cover. To determine if you have cover from an observer draw a line from a corner of his square to any corner of your square. If the line passes through a square or border (such as a wall) which blocks line of effect then you have cover and may hide. Essentially anytime the rogue gains a cover bonus to armor class he may also attempt a Hide check.
Trees provide cover to anyone who occupies the same square as the tree. Therefore a rogue may hide in the same square as a tree. This can also be applied to squares that contain objects such as pillars, columns, statues, etc. which do not fill the entire square.
Concealment: A rogue may attempt a hide check if he has concealment. Many things provide concealment: fog/smoke, darkness, undergrowth, and magic. Concealment also provides protection from sneak attacks, but only if the target is concealed. So a hidden rogue may attack from a square which offers concealment into a square which does not offer concealment and sneak attack normally. Concealment does not prevent attacks of opportunity.
Speed: A person moving stealthily may move at half speed at no penalty to their Hide or Move Silently checks. Moving at normal speed imposes a -5 penalty on both skills. Attacking, running, or charging imposes a -20 penalty on both skills.
Distraction: A distracted observer takes a –5 penalty on his spot checks and a +5 penalty to the DC of his Listen Checks. But what constitutes a distraction? Anything which occupies the observers attention for the time during which the rogue is attempting his Hide or Move Silently check is a distraction. For example, a guard who is reading a book is distracted. Two guards having an involved conversation are distracted. A guard whose attention is focused in another direction is distracted (perhaps watching something or investigating a noise). A guard who is simply standing around is not distracted. Distraction is also important because it provides the rogue with the opportunity to cross areas which do not offer cover or concealment without being detected. The Hide skill states that if the observer is distracted then you may make a Hide check to move to a new hiding place at a –10 penalty to the Hide check. You may normally move 1 foot per rank of Hide.
An observer who is engaged in combat with someone other than the rogue should always be considered distracted.
Suggested House Rule: A rogue who wishes to move from one hiding place to a new hiding place can attempt to do so even when an observer is not distracted. He moves when the observer turns away or shifts his attention briefly to something else. The game assumes that all observers have 360 degree vision (there are no rules for facing), but most enemies do not actually have this ability. So the rogue can wait until the observer turns his back, sneezes, speaks briefly to a comrade, eats, tends the fire, etc. He may move 1 foot per rank of Hide at a –10 penalty to the check. However, the observer does not suffer a –5 penalty to his Spot check under these circumstances. If the observer is actually distracted by something (an attractive woman, a book, a singing bard, a conversation, a nearby sound, a commotion of some kind, etc) then he suffers the –5 penalty to his Spot check.
In this way a rogue can cross an open room by moving from one piece of cover to another. The rogue can cross open spaces more than once per round as long as he has cover at various points along the way and no single length of open space is greater than the number of ranks he has in Hide.
Darkness: Darkness provides concealment which allows the rogue to make Hide checks. The light source of the encounter determines who can see whom. Anyone within the radius of the light source can be seen normally. For example, a standard lamp provides 15 feet of illumination (no concealment) and a further 15 feet of shadowy illumination (20% concealment) and beyond that no illumination (50% concealment). A rogue may hide anywhere more than 15 feet from the lamp by virtue of the darkness alone (he does not also need cover). To hide within 15 feet of the lamp he needs cover (a physical object to hide behind).
My Interpretation: It does not matter how many squares of darkness are between you and the person within the radius of the light source, you can see them as long as they remain near the light. So you can see everyone sitting around a fire from a significant distance away even if the fire is the only source of light and you are completely in the darkness.
The exception to this rule is magical darkness. If a square of magical darkness lies between two people who are both in the light then they both have concealment from each other.
This map illustrates using darkness to move stealthily past an observer.
1 square = 5 feet, R= rogue, O= observer, red arrows= rogue’s move each round, white squares are fully lit, light gray squares are shadowy illumination, dark gray squares are complete natural darkness, black squares are magical darkness.
This room is illuminated by a standard lamp. It provides illumination in a 15 foot radius and shadowy illumination in a 30 foot radius. There is an observer next to the lamp. Because the observer is clearly illuminated the rogue may sneak attack him at any time that he is within 30 feet and is still undetected.
The rogue’s first move occurs in complete darkness. The observer cannot see the rogue and so no Spot check is made for the observer. The observer may hear the rogue so he must make a Move Silently check, however the observer suffers a –2 penalty to the Listen check for range. Note: Strictly speaking because the rogue is in complete darkness for this move he is limited to moving at half speed. This would mean that to move 30 feet he would have to move at full speed and suffer a -5 penalty to his Move Silently check. But let's assume a friendly mage has cast darkvision upon him and that he can see and move at his normal speed.
The rogue’s second move occurs in shadowy illumination and thus a Hide check is required. However the rogue must move at full speed (He can only move 30 feet with a double move at half speed) to make this move in one round. Moving at full speed imposes a -5 penalty on his Hide and Move Silently checks. While in the light gray squares the rogue has concealment from the observer, but the observer does not have concealment from the rogue. When the rogue moves through the 10 feet of magical darkness they are both concealed from each other. The rogue may not sneak attack the observer from or through these squares. Furthermore, even with darkvision, the rogue is considered blind and must move at half speed through these two squares. Again the rogue may be heard so he must move silently. The observer no longer suffers a range penalty to his Listen check, but the rogue suffers a -5 penalty to Move Silently for moving at greater than half speed.
The rogue used a total of 45 feet of movement in this move (double for the squares of magical darkness), so he had to move at full speed to accomplish this move in one round.
The rogue’s third move requires a Hide and Move Silently check, but without the speed penalty he took on his second move. If the observer is distracted the rogue may cross the 5 feet of open illuminated ground at a –10 penalty. Using my ruling the rogue can do this simply by waiting until the observer is not looking in his direction, but then the observer does not suffer the -5 penalty to his Spot check for being distracted. In either case the rogue must have at least 5 ranks in Hide to cross the 5 foot square of open illuminated space. Again the rogue may be heard, but the observer suffers a –1 penalty to his Listen and Spot checks for range.
Each round a single Hide and Move Silently check is made at the greatest penalty for any square that the rogue crosses. So on the third move, even though the rogue is in complete darkness for 1 square and shadowy illumination for 2 squares, his roll is made for the open illuminated square. The observer’s Listen check is made for the shortest range which the rogue attains in each round. So for move 2 he suffers no penalty for range because the rogue passes within 10 feet of him.
Special Note on Darkvision: If the observer has darkvision 60 ft then the rogue is incapable of hiding in the normal darkness or the shadowy illumination. He will automatically be spotted by the observer when he moves within 60 feet of him since he does not have cover. Only the magical darkness will conceal him if the observer has darkvision. If the sneaking character were a 13th level ranger and the environment was natural terrain he could use his camoflage ability to hide from an observer with darkvision since camoflage removes his need for cover or concealment.
Undergrowth: Light undergrowth provides concealment which allows hiding. Heavy undergrowth provides a +5 bonus to Hide checks. Concealment is determined by drawing a line from a corner of the observer’s square to any corner of the rogue’s square. If this line passes through a square which provides concealment then the rogue is concealed. Note that if the rogue is IN the square which provides concealment then his observer does not have concealment from him (thus he may sneak attack while hiding with no miss chance). Likewise a rogue may make a melee sneak attack from a square which offers concealment as long as his target is not within a square which offers concealment.
Suggested House Rule: 5 hexes of light undergrowth provide total concealment (50% miss chance), 3 hexes of heavy undergrowth provide total concealment.
Creating an Opportunity to Hide: If you can get out of sight of an observer who has already seen you, you may make a Hide check, but they will have a general idea of where you are (such as if they see you hide behind a pillar). However if the observer is distracted, then you may move from that hiding space in the same manner previously noted, to a new hiding place and they will no longer know where you are. This is useful if you have a comrade engaging the observer in combat (the observer is always considered distracted under such circumstances).
If the rogue uses the Bluff skill to create a diversion to hide (a standard action) and succeeds then the observer does not know the rogue’s hiding place (he didn’t see the rogue go behind the pillar.)
Sniping: There seems to be a lot of confusion over what sniping allows especially if you’re dealing with a ranger or other class with camouflage and hide in plain sight abilities. Here’s a little clarification.
From the SRD Sniping Description: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
A rogue in an open field of short grass cannot hide at all regardless of his Hide skill. From the SRD Hide Skill Description: You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. The rogue does not have cover or concealment and so may not hide at all. The rogue is automatically seen by all observers.
A rogue sniper who has concealment or cover may attempt to re-hide immediately after a sniper attack at a –20 penalty. If he fails to re-hide he may make a Bluff check on the following round (opposed by his observer’s Sense Motive skill) as a standard action to create a diversion to hide. The rogue must move to a new hiding place within 1 foot per rank of Hide that he possesses and succeed at a new Hide check with a –10 penalty. He is then hidden again and may make a new sniper attack if he wishes.
A 13th level ranger can hide in an open field of short grass because of his camouflage ability. From the SRD Camouflage Description: A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment. So the ranger may hide in the open field without cover and concealment while the rogue cannot.
If the 13th level ranger snipes a target he may make an immediate Hide check at a –20 to conceal himself after the shot. If he fails that check he is now observed. From the SRD Hide Skill Description: If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. So once the ranger is observed he may not re-hide even in natural terrain.
A 17th level ranger who fails his check to re-hide (made at a –20 penalty) may make another check the following round using his Hide in Plain Sight ability. From the SRD Hide in Plain Sight Description: While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed. This check is at no additional penalty and he may then move while concealed to a new location. However his opponents will know where he was when he made his snipe attack (because he failed to immediately re-hide with the –20 penalty and was thus revealed). This means that if the ranger’s opponents win initiative the following round they can see him and attack normally. Even if the ranger does win initiative, re-hide, and move, he may still be hit by area effects that target his original location if he did not move far enough away. If the ranger does not move after re-hiding his opponents can attack the square that he occupies but they have a 50% miss chance as though the ranger were invisible.
So it is essential even to a 17th level ranger to make his re-hide check (with –20 penalty) if he wishes to remain an undetected sniper.
Examples of Game Play:
This map illustrates the use of concealment.
1 square = 5 feet, R= rogue, 1,2,3 = observers, green = concealment (undergrowth).
The rogue is concealed in the undergrowth (R). He may make Hide checks to remain undetected as long as he remains within the undergrowth. From this position he may make a melee sneak attack against observer 1. He may make a ranged sneak attack against observer 2 (he is within 30 feet). Observer 3 has concealment from the rogue (due to the intervening undergrowth) and so the rogue may not sneak attack him. However if observer 3 is not attempting to hide the rogue will automatically detect him and may make a normal ranged attack against him with a 20% miss chance.
Sneak Attack Tactic: Since partial concealment does not prevent attacks of opportunity the rogue may take advantage of this to make two attacks during the surprise round. The rogue could try to convince observer 1 to provoke an attack of opportunity. For example, he could use a Sleight of Hand check to drop something at the observer’s feet while remaining undetected. If observer 1 notices and picks up the object (maybe a gem or a gold coin) he will provoke an attack of opportunity from the rogue. The rogue could take the attack of opportunity (a sneak attack) and then make a ranged attack against observer 2 as his surprise action (also a sneak attack). This works best with a weapon like a dagger, which threatens an area and can also be used for ranged attacks (though it could also be accomplished if the rogue has the Quickdraw feat).
This map illustrates the use of cover and stealthy movement.
1 square = 5 feet, O= observer, A-D= rogue’s positions as he moves, black dots= pillars, gray squares= cover.
The rogue begins at position A with cover provided by the wall. If the observer (O) is distracted the rogue may move to position B if he has atleast 10 ranks in Hide (the number of open feet he must cross from A to B). There is a pillar in the square at position B which provides cover allowing the rogue to hide. The rogue makes this Hide check at a –10 penalty, but if the observer is distracted the observer suffers a –5 penalty on his Spot check as well. The observer also suffers a –2 penalty to his Spot check for range.
Using my house rule the rogue can simply wait until the observer is looking in the other direction to move. He can then move to B making a Hide check at –10 however the observer suffers no distraction penalty to his Spot check.
The next round the rogue moves from B to C. He must succeed at the same Hide check as for A to B, however the observer no longer suffers a range penalty to his Spot check. The next round the rogue moves from C to D requiring the same Hide check as for B to C (but requiring 15 ranks in Hide to move two diagonal squares) and allowing him to exit the room undetected. Alternatively the rogue could move the 5 feet toward the observer and make a surprise round sneak attack upon him.
Note that the rogue is also likely to have to succeed at Move Silently checks for each of these rounds as well and that the same penalties will apply to the observer as with the Hide checks (range and distraction).
Conclusion:
In closing I would like to mention that stealthy movement can be a very complicated and risky proposition. It can involve nearly as many skill checks and die rolls as a short combat. The Dungeon Master’s Guide recommends awarding experience points for defeating an enemy. If the enemy is attempting to prevent you from sneaking by them and you succeed in doing so then you have defeated them and should be awarded appropriate experience points. Given the intensity of the contest between sneaker and observer it seems only fair to award experience points accordingly.
I hope you enjoyed my take on this subject. Happy sneaking!
However, there are several errors or omissions you might consider adjusting:
1) I believe your figuring of the ranges with regards to modifiers affecting Spot and Listen checks are off a bit. The "Listen DC Modifier” receives a +1 per 10 feet of distance (3.5 PHB p. 78 as errataed), and the "Spot Modifier" receives a -1 penalty per 10 feet of distance (3.5 PHB p.83). [as a side note: yes, it's strange that technically the distance penalty is added to the Listen DC, but subtracted from a Spot check; however, I agree with your deviation from the text of the PHB by applying the distance modifiers both as a penalty to the Listen and Spot checks]. Anyway, the correct modifiers to distance should be:
Illustration #1 (Round 1): 30' distance = -3 to Spot/Listen
Illustration #1 (Round 2): 10' distance = -1 to Spot/Listen
Illustration #1 (Round 3): 15' distance = -1 to Spot/Listen
Illustration #3 (Round 1, in the open): 30'distance = -3 to Spot
Illustration #3 (Round 1, behind column): 25' distance = -2 Spot/Listen
Illustration #3 (Round 2, in the open): 25' or 15' = -2 or -1 Spot
Illustration #3 (Round 2, behind column): 10' = -1 Spot/Listen
2) It's very important to factor in the Rogue's Speed, and whether each round he is attempting the "normal" 1/2 Speed rate or the faster (but -5 penalized) full Speed rate during each move action (we'll assume out right that he won't Run!). If we assume the Rogue has a Speed of 30' in all the illustrations, then he may--as a move action--move 15' at no penalty (and cover 30' in the full round) or 30' at a -5 penalty (and cover 60' in the full round). The following correction needs to be made:
Illustration #1 (Round 2): the Rogue moves 7 squares (35'); this requires the full Speed rate, and thus creates a -5 penalty.
3) The distances involved in finding cover/concealment against a distracted foe are off, as well. The ranks required per foot are not measured by how many feet of "light" you cross; in fact, the hiding place "has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide" (3.5 PHB p. 76):
Illustration #1 (Round 3): indeed, the Rogue crosses only 1 square of light; however, his "hiding place" is 2 squares (10') away. He needs 10 ranks in Hide, not 5.
Illustration #3 (Round 1): indeed, the Rogue crosses 3 squares of light (remember the diagonal rule...); however, his "hiding place" is 4 squares (20') away. He needs 20 ranks in Hide, not 10.
Illustration #3 (Round 2): indeed, the Rogue crosses two 1 square bits of light; however, in each case, his "hiding places" are 2 squares (10') away. He needs 10 ranks in Hide for each bit; but needs to make two checks (although the fact the 2 squares of light are separated makes adjudicating this maneuver a bit tricky...).
Illustration #3 (Round 3): indeed, the Rogue crosses 3 squares of light (in terms of distance due to diagonals); however, his "hiding place" is 4 squares (20') away. He needs 20 ranks in Hide, not 15.
In any event, great job! I'd like to see you whip up some of your illustrations to go with your Sniping and Hide in Plain Sight explanations.
Finally, I'm typing up a different post for this thread that will contain my thoughts on the much-talked about Hide in Plain Sight; I think it might help "cover" (sorry, had to go there with the pun) other aspects of Hiding that your article touches on. I also think a section (with diagram) should be added that considers the ramifications of Darkvsion.
Kudos
Thank you for your thoughtful replies.
I believe both of your concerns can be addressed in my responses to McBard's excellent post.
With regards to the range modifiers: I treated them as ranges are typically treated in D&D, as increments. So at 10 feet and less there is no range penalty to the check. From 10- 20 feet there is a -1 penalty and at 20-30 feet there is a -2 penalty. Otherwise there is always a range penalty to spot and listen checks (at 1 foot distance there is still a -1 penalty). In other words you never get close enough to make an unpenalized Spot check.
By this measure my range penalty numbers are correct for both illustrations.
Both Spot and Listen suffer a penalty for every 10 feet of range according to their descriptions in the skills section.
With regards to speed:
Illustration #1 (Round 2): the Rogue moves 7 squares (35'); this requires the full Speed rate, and thus creates a -5 penalty.
You are correct I should add a point regarding speed. I was assuming a speed of 30 for the rogue at all times. You are also correct that I miss counted the second move in round 2. I will make an addendum to that. Thanks for the catch.
With regards to movement from hiding place to hiding place:
Illustration #1 (Round 3): indeed, the Rogue crosses only 1 square of light; however, his "hiding place" is 2 squares (10') away. He needs 10 ranks in Hide, not 5.
Actually illustration #1 (round 3) is correct. He needs 5 ranks in hide to move to the new hiding place because the second square that he moves through is only partially illuminated and offers concealment. So he may hide in it. In that case the second hiding place is not behind the wall, but in the shadows just beyond the doorway.
Illustration #3 (Round 1): indeed, the Rogue crosses 3 squares of light (remember the diagonal rule...); however, his "hiding place" is 4 squares (20') away. He needs 20 ranks in Hide, not 10.
This and the other moves in this illustration are actually correct as well. The rogue may hide anywhere that he has cover. He has cover if he is in the same square as a tree (or in this case a pillar). So he only needs to reach the square to be in his next hiding place.
The diagonal rule states that the first diagonal square is counted as 5 feet and the second is counted as 10 feet. So in round one he moves 5 feet straight into his first square, which is in the open. He then moves 5 feet diagonally into the second square, which is open. He then moves 10 feet into the third square which grants cover due to the pillar. As soon as he is within that square he is able to hide again. So only the 10 feet of "open" space (in which he has neither cover nor concealment) count against his ranks in Hide.
It appears that you and I measure ranges/distances slightly differently. You appear to include the square which grants cover as part of the move needed to reach the cover. I do not. By my method he needs 10 ranks to cross to his new hiding place because the pillar square is the new hiding place and it is 10 feet from his previous hiding place.
I didn't make an illustration for the sniping/hide in plain sight explanation because I didn't feel that the actual positions on the map were particularly helpful to the explanation.
Thank you for your thoughtful analysis, others might have had similar concerns.
To simplify the opposed checks involved in stealth, I allow everyone to "take 10" in Move Silently and Spot, including the enemies. This way, when the players enter a new room I ask only for Listen and Spot checks. Creatures in bright areas can only hide if behind cover. Creatures in shadowy areas can hide, but can be spotted. Creatures in dark areas can't be seen, but can be heard. Creatures with low-light vision treat the shadowy areas as bright areas, while creatures with darkvision can see everything (the only way to hide from them is using cover).
1st as someone mentioned, spotter with darkvision. In the first example, does it mean that if the target had 60' darkvision, and the squares on your drawing indicates 5', that the sneaker would be visible all the time? How do you sneak up on someone with darkvision if you don' have the cover?
2nd distance: the -1 penalty on spot and listen (to simplify it) for every 10 feet beyond the first works well in dungeons and such. But in open areas, is there a maximum penalty? Say, if a 1st lvl ranger lies 300' from a group of orcs hiding behind a small bush (say 20% concealment). How much penalty would the orcs get on their spot and listen checks?
This becomes interesting when the ranger tries to use sniping tactics. I assume the orcs don't get a -28 on their spot checks to spot the ranger?
Oh, one more thing would the ranger even need a move silently when not moving?
And how do you solve this when there are multiple spotters? Rolling for 12 orcs can be quite time consuming...
Good Questions.
1. Darkvision: Basically I treat darkvision as being in a constantly illuminated 60 foot area. That means that without cover or concealment other than darkness (such as undergrowth) the rogue would always be clearly visible and automatically seen. He would have no problems on maps two and three because his concealment and cover are provided by things other than darkness.
From the SRD: Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
2. As far as I know there is no maximum range penalty for spot and listen checks. So the orcs would have a -29 penalty to detect a ranger hiding 300 feet away. As a DM, I'd probably just rule that he was undetectable at that range (assuming that the orcs couldn't overcome that penalty even if they rolled a 20 on their check).
Use the rules in the DMG for determining initial encounter distance outside of a dungeon. The initial distance is randomly rolled based on terrain type. The ranger and the orcs cannot see each other over this distance and he may approach without making hide checks until he reaches this distance (the ranger may have been able to spot them earlier from an elevated position or may already know where they are camping). The orcs may attempt to spot him when he reaches that distance, again at half that distance, and again just before the encounter starts (he attacks them, tries to steal something, or sneak past them).
If the ranger snipes the orcs he is automatically revealed unless he immediately re-hides at a -20 penalty which sort of evens out they -29 penalty the orcs have. Keep in mind he can only fire once and re-hide (its in the sniping rules). It's debatable over whether the ranger could use manyshot while sniping. I'd probably allow it myself.
If you don't move you don't need a move silently check. Keep in mind that by not moving I mean staying completely still, not just staying in the square you already occupy. You may have to make a move silently check if you try to pick a lock, disable a trap, make an attack, or other potentially noisy activity. Keep in mind that casting a spell with a verbal component requires the use of a strong voice (you can't whisper) and is likely to make you very easy to hear (Listen DC 0 regardless of your move silently check).
With large groups of alert opponents (such as scouts or guards) I typically have them take 10 on spot and listen checks at all times and especially at long range. That way you know that if all the orcs have a spot of +3 the ranger needs a hide check result of 14 or better to remain hidden. If the orcs are not paying attention at all then I assume them to be taking 1 on their check (and the ranger would need a hide result of 5 to remain undetected).
I only roll spot checks for important npcs who are alert (so if one of the orc guards is a ranger himself he might actually roll his spot checks). I also roll the spot checks even for guards who are taking 10 during the surprise round. That way an alert guard has a chance of not being surprised because he's voluntarily never getting a high roll.
Hope that answered all your questions.
Thanks for posting.
Hiding and Spring Attack:
If a rogue is hidden and has the spring attack feat he may move to his target, attack, and then move to a new hiding place within 1 foot per rank of Hide, but at least 10 feet away from the target. The rogue must hide very quickly so he takes a -10 penalty on the check (as with creating a distraction to hide).
A 17th level ranger may likewise use his Hide in Plain Sight ability to do this when in natural terrain. His final hiding place must still be at least 10 feet from the target, but within 1 foot per rank of Hide, and he still suffers the -10 penalty to the check because of the speed with which he must hide.
Since the attack revealed the rogue/ranger the target of the attack and any witnesses are never considered distracted (and thus suffer no penalty to their Spot checks).
Hope that helps.
Originally posted by Finarin Panjoro
A 17th level ranger may likewise use his Hide in Plain Sight ability to do this when in natural terrain. His final hiding place must still be at least 10 feet from the target, but within 1 foot per rank of Hide, and he still suffers the -10 penalty to the check because of the speed with which he must hide.
What hiding place? A 17th level ranger doesn't need a hiding place at all, if he's in a wooded area. This house rule makes the HiPS ability of the ranger completely worthless. I mean 100% absolutely worthless!
If you're in a wooded area, there is automatically going to be cover nearby. Wooded = TREES! So if you have to bother with having a place to hide, and it being at least 10 feet away, and taking a -10 penalty exactly like everyone who doesn't have HiPS, then what exactly is HiPS doing in your games?
The rest of this post is recopied from another thread.
This has been argued to death. I think they can hide with no penalty at all. Hide in Plain Sight is obviously a superior form of using the Hide skill. It allows you to do things that normal characters can't do with it, namely hide while being observed. The Sniping clause was put in the rules for the normally limited character's to be able to re-hide by taking a big penalty, when they technically shouldn't be able to hide at all. Since characters with HiPS don't suffer this limitation, they shouldn't have to take the penalty.
Specific exceptions to the rules supercede the normal rules when they conflict with them. I think this is obviously the case here, as the HiPS description clearly states that a character with that ability can hide while being observed, and puts absolutely no further restrictions on it (besides Shadowdancers having to be near a shadow, or rangers having to be in a wooded area). It doesn't say "Oh, and if they attacked during that round, they have to take a -20 (or -10) to Hide while being observed." No, it just says "They can hide while being observed." Period.
The section about using a distraction to Hide comes immediately before the "Sniping" section, and specifically mentions that the reason you even need to create a distraction is because normally you can't hide at all while being observed.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.
So a character with HiPS, due to the fact that they don't suffer from the limitation of not being able to hide while being observed, can ignore this entire section completely.
Likewise, the entire section on "Sniping" and re-hiding is only there because characters are "automatically revealed" after an attack, and therefore can't normally rehide after attacking because they're "being observed". The "Sniping rule" is an exception to this, and says that they can if they only make 1 attack and take a -20 on their Hide check. Again, characters with HiPS don't suffer from the limitation that "spawned" this "Sniping" exception rule, so they can ignore that section completely, also.
Now, having said that, I can understand that some people may think that HiPS is too powerful if you follow the rules as I've outlined them, and might want to tone it down a bit. But simply applying exactly the same penalties to characters with and without it (-20 for sniping, -10 for hiding after a "distraction") essentially makes the entire ability mostly useless. I think that's going to far. I also think that any such "nerfing" should be clearly prefaced as a house rule, since the official rules do not apply any penalties to hiding while being observed if you have HiPS.
And MY GOD I wish the Sage would tackle this. This has been around FOREVER, and it is never resolved, because HiPS is too vaguely defined.
I've noticed that some people have trouble discerning between cover and concealment, and whether they stack or something like that. I'll give a simple, plain English version here...
Cover means something could literally cover you from an incoming shot or damage effect. Cover is something substantial, whether it be a wall of force or a rock. (Note that hiding behind a wall of force should actually be impossible, since said wall is invisible.)
Concealment means something that obstructs a visual path between you and your opponent, but would not necessarily block a damaging effect. Darkness, for example, is a concealment factor. Darkness is insubstantial but definitely hinders sight.
A wall of force is a perfect example of cover and not concealment because it actually blocks incoming blows but doesn't hide you at all. Concealment would be the opposite: it hides you but doesn't block you from danger. Concealment usually involves a percentage (something like 50%) of missing, and Cover usually involves an AC bonus.
Again, I love this article and please write again for the repository!
I've noticed something regarding Hide in Plain Sight, and would be interested in your take on it:
What do you think the implications are regarding the fact that a Ranger's HiPS is an Extraordinary ability, while a Shadowdancer's is a Supernatural one?
Aside from the "anti-magic" difference, I think many players fail to take into consideration that, according to the 3.5 PHB (p.142), "using a supernatural ability (such as a cleric's turn or rebuke undead ability) is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability's description)." This being the case, it would seem the Sadowdancer's HiPS requires a standard action, as its description (p. 195, 3.5 DMG) does not say otherwise. Moreover, then, the Ranger's as an Extraordinary ability requires no action.
I have a feeling many people would scoff at the suggestion of such a dramatic
difference; however, note that the Shadowdancer's HiPS can essentially be attained at 8th Character Level, while the Ranger's not until 17th. Perhaps this huge difference in attainment rate warrants my suggested close reading of the Supernatural version of HiPS?
PhaedrusXY,
First off I did preface that entire section you quoted by stating that I was straying into house ruling territory and that each person should evaluate my suggestions on their own before implementing them.
Second, you ask what hiding place for the ranger using HiPS? My recommendation was that after making an attack the ranger would have to move at least 10 feet away from the target to hide again using HiPS. So his hiding place would be any square 10 feet from his target that contained natural terrain.
Third, my reading of HiPS is that it lets you hide while observed. It does not say anything about letting you hide immediately after making an attack. HiPS also does not state that it can allow an attacker to attack without revealing himself. Nor does it say that it removes or negates modifiers of any kind to a Hide check.
I believe your interpretation (no penalty at all) to be equally supported by the written rules (which is why I prefaced my statement and my article with numerous notations that I was house ruling or interpreting in several places). However I do not believe that it is in the spirit or intention of the ability nor do I believe it to be a balanced interpretation as it makes HiPS far too powerful. Your interpretation would allow a ranger to make a full round melee attack against an enemy and then use his 5 foot step to Hide at no penalty. He could repeat this every round, even if he remained adjacent to his enemy the entire time (effectively never disengaging the melee). It is effectively better than permanent greater invisibility because you can't counter it with see invisibility or dispel it into not working. I do not believe HiPS is intended to allow this.
But as I said everyone is free to interpret it differently from how I do, I merely offer suggestions.
Will_Hyral,
Thanks very much for the compliment. I'm very gratified that you enjoyed the article.
Your suggestion to reference pages in the 3.5 DMG is a good one unfortunately I can no longer edit my original post so I am unable to add reference pages. I guess my text quoted from the SRD will have to suffice. Thanks also for the clarification of cover and concealment.
McBard,
Glad to hear from you again.
Your question relates to PhaedrusXY's post as well.
I don't have my DMG with me, but I was interested to find that in the combat section of the SRD the table for action types lists BOTH extraordinary and supernatural abilities as STANDARD ACTIONS. The special abilities descriptions in the SRD do not specify the action type for either Ex or Su abilities. So it would appear that either way it is interpreted the Ranger and the Shadowdancer are in the same boat.
Obviously the DMG trumps the SRD, but I'll have to check later.
Assuming that they both work the same way, I recommend using them as normal uses of the Hide skill which makes hiding part of movement. I think the intention of HiPS (both versions) is to allow the Hide Skill to be used at times that it could not normally be used (while observed) and therefore should default to the type of action the Hide skill normally requires.
However if HiPS does take a standard action to use it would certainly resolve the issue which PhaedrusXY and I are debating. It would be impossible to snipe or spring attack and use HiPS in the same round if HiPS requires a standard action.
I'll try to post more on this later after I check my PHB and DMG.
A user on another board provided a quote that seals the deal with HiPS as far as I'm concerned.
From the 3.0 FAQ:
"Though supernatural abilities usually require a standard action to use, a few of them do not. Hide In Plain Sight, for example, works just like any other use of the Hide skill, so you can use it as a Move action or as part of a Move action.
A Monk's supernatural speed works anytime the monk moves. In general, whenever a supernatural ability changes the way one of the user's actions works, it works just like the action it modifies."
This clearly illustrates the intent of the ability which is what I'm most concerned with since I don't think that changed between 3.0 and 3.5.
So Hide in Plain Sight, even the supernatural version, is part of a move action.
If in a combat situation, I allow rogues to hide ONLY if they have cover, and only if they are hidden before the combat starts or can use a bluff check to distract the enemy first.
If they make an attack from cover, they are no longer hidden unless sniping. Also, unless they can get to an area of full cover, they can't hide again because the enemy now knows where they are.
Majoru Oakheart
You bring up a good point and I now realize I should have clarified this a little better.
I should have said an observer who is unaware of the rogue's presence and is engaged in combat with someone else is always considered distracted.
In other words if the rogue is trying to sneak past an observer and that observer is involved in a fight which the rogue is not taking part in, then that observer should be considered distracted with regards to the rogue. It is reasonable to rule that the observers are focusing their attention on their attackers and not on trying to find a hidden rogue.
This does not make the observers flat-footed (in fact they can't be flat-footed as they are already in combat) and means that the rogue can only move 1 foot per rank of Hide without cover/concealment without automatically being seen by them. The rogue still takes a -10 penalty on the Hide check for this move, but the observers would suffer a -5 penalty to Spot for being distracted by the fight they are engaged in.
If the rogue were going to move from a hiding place and sneak attack one of these observers he could only move 1 foot per rank of Hide and would have to succeed at a Hide check with a net -5 penalty. If the guard is more than half his move speed away then he will also take the -5 penalty for full speed movement to this check. Once he has attacked the observers would be aware of his presence and no longer considered distracted with regards to the rogue (in the case that he were to become hidden again).
Furthermore because the observers are not flat-footed (they're already in combat) only the first attack the rogue makes would be a sneak attack. So if he was able to take a 5 foot step (from his hiding place) and make a full attack only the first attack would gain sneak attack damage (as though the rogue were invisible and had become visible after his first attack).
This is as opposed to the same rogue trying to attack when they are not fighting someone else when he would have a net -10 penalty (plus possible speed penalty) to his Hide check. But then the guards would be flat-footed if he attacked.
I stated that the observer would be distracted while fighting because a classic real-world distraction technique is to have someone else make an easily repulsed attack which takes the observers attention away from the area that you want to sneak through.
This is one of the areas where I can be considered to be making a house rule, but I think it is a logical one. However, as always, I recommend you rule it as works best for your game.
I know the thread is a few months old but I hope its still active enough to get a response about a few more questions I have.
First question is about shadow. If it is night and a large tree is casting a long black shadow due to the moonlight, can the shadow be considered as concealment to hide in or just the physical tree?
Similar situation, but the tree is casting a large black shadow caused by a torchlight or firelight. Is the shadowy area considered concealment?
Next is about Darkvision. The texts say we should treat darkvision as normal sight with a 60 foot range. It is black and white. Does this mean that there are NO shadows ever or does it mean that the black shadow being cast by an object and light source could still be used as a source of concealment?
Thanks
First question is about shadow. If it is night and a large tree is casting a long black shadow due to the moonlight, can the shadow be considered as concealment to hide in or just the physical tree?
The shadow is concealment, which can be utilized to hide in.
The tree however, is Cover, which can be utilized to hide.
Similar situation, but the tree is casting a large black shadow caused by a torchlight or firelight. Is the shadowy area considered concealment?
Yes, absolutely.
Next is about Darkvision. The texts say we should treat darkvision as normal sight with a 60 foot range. It is black and white. Does this mean that there are NO shadows ever or does it mean that the black shadow being cast by an object and light source could still be used as a source of concealment?
This quote from the SRD should clear up your questions on the subject of darkvision vs. concealment via shadow. (other types of concealment would still be effective vs darkvison ie: fog, etc...)
SRD 3.5:
Ignoring Concealment: Concealment isn’t always effective. A shadowy area or darkness doesn’t provide any concealment against an opponent with darkvision.
Sneak Attack Tactic: Since partial concealment does not prevent attacks of opportunity the rogue may take advantage of this to make two attacks during the surprise round. The rogue could try to convince observer 1 to provoke an attack of opportunity. For example, he could use a Sleight of Hand check to drop something at the observer’s feet while remaining undetected. If observer 1 notices and picks up the object (maybe a gem or a gold coin) he will provoke an attack of opportunity from the rogue. The rogue could take the attack of opportunity (a sneak attack) and then make a ranged attack against observer 2 as his surprise action (also a sneak attack). This works best with a weapon like a dagger, which threatens an area and can also be used for ranged attacks (though it could also be accomplished if the rogue has the Quickdraw feat).
This seems unreasonable to me. They aren't actually in combat yet. I feel that bending over to pick up a gem or whatnot should merely be a distraction. It shouldn't give a rogue two chances to attack you.
He is flat footed to the rogue, yes. However, I always figure that in order to provoke an attack of opportunity, the combatants must already be up in each others' faces, their swords flashing and flying all over, and then one of them does something that leaves them open to attack. A rogue can leap out and stab somebody, no problem. But I don't see why bending over lets them do it twice.
DMRB,
Erus answered your questions pretty much as I would have.
In another thread you raised an interesting issue relating to the use of cover to hide. I'm going to reprint my opinion on it here as it relates to my article.
I referred you to the rule on trees.
A creature standing in the same square as a tree gains a +2 bonus to Armor Class and a +1 bonus on Reflex saves (these bonuses don’t stack with cover bonuses from other sources).
It would seem this tree provides cover in all directions as long as you occupy the same square it does. I would assume it does not provide cover if you are 5 feet away from it. Since the tree only provides half of a cover bonus I would apply a -5 penalty to any hide check depending on the tree as cover.
This ruling has several additional implications for hiding and stealth. If this tree provides cover in all directions you could literally sneak through the middle of a forest camp in broad daylight by moving from tree to tree. I also suggest that similar objects should provide the same type of cover. This would include things like barrels, pillars, statues, crates, tables, wagons, etc, objects that are small enough or constructed in such a way that you can share their square with them. Sharing their square may restrict your fighting options (if you're under a table, for example). I would rule that you fight as though you've squeezed into a space that is too small for you (and thus receive all relevant penalties) while using restrictive cover. Note that walls should never be allowed to function in this fashion or you might have to start awarding a +2 AC bonus to anyone adjacent to a wall.
Marros,
You have a valid point and it actually occurred to me when I made that suggestion. But here's why I didn't go with it. By that line of reasoning an invisible enemy could never take an attack of opportunity. If you're engaged in combat and an undetected enemy is next to you and you take a provoking action, by the rules as written, you do provoke an AoO even though you aren't actively exchanging blows with them. Since I ruled earlier in the article that being hidden essentially receives the same benefits as being invisible I felt this was consistent with my prior interpretations.
It can certainly be argued the other way though. The rules state that an AoO is provoked "as you divert your attention from the battle". But since no battle is taking place its reasonable to conclude that no AoO's can be provoked. I would rule that by tricking them into provoking an AoO you're making them even more vulnerable to attack then normal, hence the extra attack. It seems reasonable to me that it's easier to attack someone who's distracted, bent over, off balance, or occupied doing something, than someone upright, unengaged, and fully mobile.
For both of these points let me reiterate what I say in the article, this is just how I reasoned it out. Feel free to disagree and play it as works best for you and your party.
Furthermore because the observers are not flat-footed (they're already in combat) only the first attack the rogue makes would be a sneak attack. So if he was able to take a 5 foot step (from his hiding place) and make a full attack only the first attack would gain sneak attack damage (as though the rogue were invisible and had become visible after his first attack).
Actually it does not matter that combat has already started. The observer and his opponent will not get the flat footedness due to the Rogue. So the Rogue will hit the observer (with him flatfooted) as a sneak attacker. Also the way you might look at it is opponent might set up the position for flanking even though he is not aware of it yet.
For a final clarity what is the 'official' rule on using HIPS? I am making a Rogue 7 ASN 8 IB 5 and I will get HIPS at some point. If I spring attack an opponent then move 5-10 ft away, I could essentially not use the left over movement to just hide while I am not moving couldn't I? Would you say that one with HIPS could hide another's shadow but not their own?
2. As far as I know there is no maximum range penalty for spot and listen checks. So the orcs would have a -29 penalty to detect a ranger hiding 300 feet away. As a DM, I'd probably just rule that he was undetectable at that range (assuming that the orcs couldn't overcome that penalty even if they rolled a 20 on their check).
I looked at that previously too - but upon closer reading I noticed that the -1/10' is only valid when determining distance for encounters - never else. So spotting the sniper 300' away that shot at you gets no negative modifiers.
I would rule that it is valid if someone undetected is hiding, since what I think the -1/10' is supposed to cover is how you have to pay attention to everything when you don't know squat about from which way the threat might come, while the other uses of spot are purely reactive and in those cases you will be looking in the right direction and focus your eyes correctly and thus be using your full spot.
That's MHO at least
I looked at that previously too - but upon closer reading I noticed that the -1/10' is only valid when determining distance for encounters - never else. So spotting the sniper 300' away that shot at you gets no negative modifiers.
You are correct, but see below.
I would rule that it is valid if someone undetected is hiding, since what I think the -1/10' is supposed to cover is how you have to pay attention to everything when you don't know squat about from which way the threat might come, while the other uses of spot are purely reactive and in those cases you will be looking in the right direction and focus your eyes correctly and thus be using your full spot.
Well, by nature, if you're making a spot check, you don't know where the target is. If you have an inkling, for example, you saw somebody dart into a room, so he's PROBABLY somewhere in that room. You should get a circumstance bonus (+2 or +4) at the DM's option. But I think the case you're talking about -- not really needing to locate a direction, just see them in their hiding place -- is what the -20 penalty for sniping IS.
You're right that the -1 per 10 feet is technically only for starting encounters, but I would tend to use that any time you're making a spot check. It's much easier to see somebody hiding in a bush that's at your feet than to see somebody who's hiding in a bush fifty feet away, so it's only logical to apply the range penalty to spot checks, just like you put on listen checks.
The official ruling on HiPS and re-hiding is in the Main FAQ on page 12 and 13. Your assassin could move from hidden toward the target, attack the target with a -20 penalty to the Hide check to remain hidden while attacking, then move again making another (unpenalized) Hide check to disappear from view, as long as he was within 10' of shadow the entire time. He would effectively never be seen using this technique.
Using spring attack he can either move away from the target or move 10 feet around the target (staying adjacent to him the whole time since he provokes no AoOs for movement) in which case he could end his move hidden and adjacent to his target.
Zytx,
Wow. I never realized that before, but it appears from the text that you are correct. Spot checks are only penalized for distance when used to determine initial encounter distance. That changes the numbers in several of the examples I originally posted.
Note however that Listen checks are always affected by distance.
Note on the original post: I have been unable to re-post the images which accompanied the original text because I can no longer edit the original post. Sorry if that makes things confusing.
You're right that the -1 per 10 feet is technically only for starting encounters, but I would tend to use that any time you're making a spot check. It's much easier to see somebody hiding in a bush that's at your feet than to see somebody who's hiding in a bush fifty feet away, so it's only logical to apply the range penalty to spot checks, just like you put on listen checks.
I did apply them, until I got my players out in the fields or across other great expanses of ground.
The first time I noticed that this way of reading the rules was broken was when I had a sniper shooting at them 600' away. By your rules (and how I read them then) he would get +60 to hide, -20 for sniping and hiding = +40 to hide, which basically amounts to undefeatable invisibility.
I will continue giving the -1/10' for people who are hiding without attracting attention to themselves, since that can be considered part of the 'encounter distance and surprise' part of an encounter, or a 'non-reactive' use, but if the hider does something to attract attention (attacks, makes noise high enough to be heard or something else) will be 'located' and can be spotted without negative distance modifiers.
But in the example with a sniper 600' away I might still give a circumstance penalty for distance, but in the range of -2 to -4, not -60. Still, YMMV.
Note on the original post: I have been unable to re-post the images which accompanied the original text because I can no longer edit the original post. Sorry if that makes things confusing.
Return to your picserver.org and replace the originally referenced images with corrected version w/the same names. This will allow new images to be displayed without requiring you to edit the post.
In more relative matters: Neat! I never the noticed the "only for encounters" line either. Good spot check Ztyx! Though that may actually have been decipher script ;) However I think that distance should always be factored for spot checks.
Im also nearsighted.A house rule: An observer automatically spots any character without cover or concealment at a distance of 10ft per total spot modifier. Past that range even without cover or concealment require spot checks. Why?
'Cause I also use a "detect and target" mitigater to the success. Get within 10 of the base DC (above or below) and you have "detected" the other character. Beat the DC by 10 and you have targeted. Detection is all that is necessary for general "he is over there" "he went that way" kinda stuff. The autodetect rule makes it almost impossible to fail to target someone who is standing right next to you (unless the have HiPS) but adds an additional frustration to archers and spellcasters (he is right there.. but I can't quite put my finger on him!).
I have gotten some flak for screwing with the DC like that but after I found the CoCo! I also found these lovely articles by Skip Williams "There not there (p2)" covers a similar if not exactly the same concept particularly when dealing with invisible opponents.
On a related note, At the CoCo they have this weird rule that allows you to treat any cover within 1ft per rank in hide as cover. Yesm, "If you have 15 ranks of hide, then you can hide anywhere within 15ft of a source of cover." I personally think that’s a misread of the rules, but it does seem that so are my precious distance modifiers... drat!
Basically, it means that the targets either have to hunker down and hope that the arrows are only occasional and miss or send a group out (probably under cover so that they're not under fire on the way) to find the sniper. That doesn't seem too unreasonable to me.
I did apply them, until I got my players out in the fields or across other great expanses of ground.
The first time I noticed that this way of reading the rules was broken was when I had a sniper shooting at them 600' away. By your rules (and how I read them then) he would get +60 to hide, -20 for sniping and hiding = +40 to hide, which basically amounts to undefeatable invisibility.
I will continue giving the -1/10' for people who are hiding without attracting attention to themselves, since that can be considered part of the 'encounter distance and surprise' part of an encounter, or a 'non-reactive' use, but if the hider does something to attract attention (attacks, makes noise high enough to be heard or something else) will be 'located' and can be spotted without negative distance modifiers.
But in the example with a sniper 600' away I might still give a circumstance penalty for distance, but in the range of -2 to -4, not -60. Still, YMMV.
I did apply them, until I got my players out in the fields or across other great expanses of ground.
The first time I noticed that this way of reading the rules was broken was when I had a sniper shooting at them 600' away. By your rules (and how I read them then) he would get +60 to hide, -20 for sniping and hiding = +40 to hide, which basically amounts to undefeatable invisibility.
Well, I have to say... so what? Six hundred feet away -- that's two football fields. Obviously you can see somebody at that range, but...
First, note that you don't make spot checks when somebody isn't hiding. So a flat, empty field with somebody 600 feet away doesn't even come into it. He has to have cover or concealment to hide behind. Assuming there's, oh... tall grass, or something, he could get concealment and hide.
Now we have somebody hiding two hundred yards away and shooting at you. Do you know which direction the fire is coming from? Sure. Do you know exactly what five foot square the shooter is in? No, and that's where the spot check comes in. But that doesn't mean the party stands around looking stupid while arrows rain down on them. If they have any brains, they'll try to do something about it. This suggests three paths:
1) Charge the position. Take some fire while running towards him, thus reducing the spot penalty by 6 to 12 every turn (depending on whether they're running or walking).
2) Take cover. The sniper has the same penalties on spot checks. If they can get some concealment or cover to make a hide check with, they can effectively negate the sniper with his own tactic.
3) Get some altitude. If you get higher, you can often negate the cover/concealment that's allowing hide checks. Seeing over the cover may well put him in the open, thus foregoing the need to succeed on a check.
And that doesn't even take into account using a spyglass or similar equipment to reduce the spot penalties.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
The bolded text is mainly what I want to focus on. Does it mean that you do not need cover or concealment? One of my DMs is saying I still need some type of cover or concealment, and that the ability's only benefit is hiding while being observed, just like the Rangers ability. But, Rangers also get Camouflage, which negates the cover/concealment requirement of hiding. Yet, Rangers description of their ability is different, in that is doesn't have the clause that I bolded. I think they would've made the descriptions the same, if the SD version wasn't meant to be just like the Ranger's version with Camouflage combined. Why else would they tack on the extra statement?
Wizards hasn't clarified this yet, IMO. I'm still wondering if I need to take the Cloak Dance feat or not, so I can provide myself with concealment, no matter where I am. Then again, I may take this feat anyway, as it's just way too cool for a Rogue/SD not to have!
I've never heard anyone question this before so I'm a little surprised that your DM is. Usually the debate is over what constitutes shadow (is complete darkness shadow or not? etc).