Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Talmariel Mar 27, 2004 10:48:07	First, I need to give some credit to Finarin Panjoro for inspiring this article with his excellent post clarifying normal stealth rules. There was an additional idea I wanted to address, more as an addendum to his in-depth post. In my own games, I've desired a mechanic for the ever-popular "stealth kill." In game terms, it's an attack that instantly kills the subject, and the only form of attack in normal combat that fills that role is the coup de grace. The SRD defines a coup de grace as follows: Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
#2 zombiegleemax Mar 31, 2004 0:27:25	This is another one of those black marks that hang over the idea of characters having massive loads of hit points in D&D. You have GOT to have a way to kill someone like this otherwise it's just not realistic. I understand that having crazy hit points coming out of your ass can remind one of final fantasy style epic combat but sometimes, in the interest of realism, you should have a way to just kill someone like this. It sounds like a job for a rogue. Maybe the sneak attack alone should be enough to satisfy? It doesn't seem right. A Ranger with a dirk who can sneak up on you and get the knife to your throat should be just as deadly as a Rogue, a Fighter, or what have you. I'll tell you this much; if I had a nickel for every sleeping guard who's job it was of mine to kill but couldn't QUITE get enough damage to drop them . . . I'd have a hell of a lot of nickels. The added coup de grace house rule just seems like the logical continuation in the spirit of the "taking 10" option that goes along with many skill checks. I'm not going to screw a party over b/c the bard snuck up on the maytag man while he was asleep but couldn't do enough damage to kill him. How the hell do you defend that?
#3 soulmage Apr 01, 2004 12:55:09	It’s awfully powerful. Sounds like it would be better as a prestige class ability, rather than just something everybody could do.
#4 ludovico47 Apr 01, 2004 19:49:15	I don't think you're properly interpreting the meaning of "otherwise at your mercy" in the description of a coup de grace. In order to be able to coup de grace an opponent, you have to basically be in a position to strike them in a vital area without a chance to miss. In order for that to happen, your opponent has to be either completely unaware of his surroundings (unconscious, sleeping, etc.) or totally incapable of affecting them (paralyzed, bound, etc.). If a rogue is picking a lock, he is neither shut off from the outside world, nor is he forced to remain completely motionless. If an opponent is distracted by mundane means (busy reading a book, picking a lock, in a conversation with a person who, for some reason or another, won't tell him there's a man with a dagger behind him), but is still aware of his surroundings and mobile, then all those who get the drop on him get just that: the drop. That's a surprise round, plain and simple. If you want to take advantage of your character's affinity for sneakiness to exact an instantaneous killing strike, you should just look into getting a character with the death attack special ability, like an assassin.
#5 77im Apr 13, 2004 9:28:01	This rule makes sense but I really don't think it's necessary. Let's consider the case of someone reading a book by the fire and a killer sneaking up behind them. 1. If the guy reading the book is a 1st-level ordinary person, most PCs will be able to drop him in one hit anyway, with coup-de-grace on the next round if necessary. 2. If the attacker is a rogue, sneak attack damage takes care of all but the toughest customers, especially full-round two-weapon sneak attack. 3. If the attacker is a fighter-type, a two-handed weapon with power attack and/or a multiple attack routine should deal enough damage to drop the guy. 4. If the attacker is an assassin or a cleric with the death domain or someone else with a cool insta-kill power, then they already have rules support for the "stealth kill." 5. If the guy reading the book is high-level with lots of HP and/or uncanny dodge ... well, such a person is supposed to be very hard to kill. It's not meant to be realistic. This rule helps protect the players as much as their enemies; no one wants to start an encounter by taking 37 points of damage and then making a Fortitude save (DC 47) or die. In summary, there are already options in D&D for the "stealth kill," but like most really cool maneuvers, it is linked to a character ability (in this case, sneak attack, prestige class abilities, or just massive damage + moving silently). By making such a power available to all characters, you undermine the uniqueness of characters who really focus on the stealth kill. -- 77IM
#6 zombiegleemax Apr 13, 2004 13:56:37	Since the vast majority of NPCs have 4 or fewer HP, no PC should ever be at a loss to finish off a foe in a surprise round unless said foe is a powerful monster or character. In that case, not only is it expected that you won't be able to kill a dragon by stabbing it in the back, but it's also extremely anticlimactic if you did. Further, this rule essentially kills more PCs than it's worth. Now Conan the barbarian with 400 HP is vulnerable to every 1st level rogue. Please tell me you won't allow him to get killed while eating his soup just because he didn't see the mugger. That's just sad. And it'll be especially sadder when the whole party falls to that tactic repeatedly because a few monsters heard them coming and stood behind the door.
#7 Talmariel Apr 13, 2004 14:33:31	Points all taken. I think BaronVonStevie hit on my aim with this house rule. Part of role-playing, or any story, is the suspension of disbelief. I've had countless situations as a rogue where I was assigned "sneak attack duty," or the 'go-kill-that-guard-quick-and-quiet' role. If my rogue successfully sneaks up on an entirely oblivious person, by all rights, I should kill them. Not only that, my sense of reason within the story says this should be a quick, quiet, painless act, perhaps a swift slit of the throat. Ludovico47 notes some situations in which it would not be reasonable to use this ability, and I concur with them completely. A rogue who's picking a lock has their attention devoted to it primarily, but they are also probably looking around for trouble. That isn't necessarily true, but that becomes a judgment call on the part of the DM. I would agree, though, that the rogue would not be subject to this house rule. As for conversation, it is likely the other person would give warning, and thus foil the attempt (because it would foil the Hide checks to stay unnoticed). The assassin's death attack ability only requires that he or she can perform a sneak attack, which is far more flexible than the house rule I'm presenting. Therefore, I would argue it is well worth a class ability, but I'm looking for something covering a more specific, but very common situation. 77IM, while I agree it is possible, and even probable to kill an unsuspecting, low-level NPC, it is usually described, rules-wise, as a very brutal and messy affair. If it can be done with a straight sneak attack, all the better. However, you suggested multiple attacks in more than one of your examples, which is why I said it becomes brutal and messy. I'm not going to belabor a defense of my ideas; I think it's obvious it isn't for everyone. For those that want a less gritty house rule, which includes myself for certain games, I'd offer to affect this idea through a feat. Stealth Kill You are capable of delivering a killing blow to unsuspecting foes. Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +2, Combat Expertise, sneak attack class ability. Benefit: You can choose to forgo 2d6 points of sneak attack damage to deliver a coup de grace to an unsuspecting foe. An unsuspecting foe is considered any opponent who is distracted (see Listen and Spot skills, pages 78 and 83 of the Player's Handbook), and not anticipating danger of any kind. If the opponent is actively making Spot, Listen, or Search checks for anything particular, they are not subject to this ability. All other rules for a coup de grace apply. Any creature not subject to critical hits is not subject to a coup de grace, and therefore not subject to this feat, either. Normal: You can only deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. This brings the ability entirely into the domain of rogues, or prestige classes with a sneak attack. I required Combat Expertise because I think this idea is reminiscent of Improved Disarm and Improved Trip, and I think a good Intelligence score is a sensible requirement, as it relates to discerning anatomy of the target. The base attack requirement is derived from the Death Blow feat, from Sword & Fist. If the "Complete" book for 3.5 rogues has a revision of the Death Blow feat, I would include that in the prerequisites. I would probably allow it to be used in conjunction, so that this attack becomes a standard action, instead of a full-round one, assuming the feat maintains its original effect. Also, if Death Blow is included, I would revise requirements for Stealth Kill to sync with Death Blow's revised requirements, if they are changed.
#8 zombiegleemax Apr 13, 2004 16:33:04	How does this House Rule undermine a Rogues Sneak Attack ability? Or even the Assassins Death Attack? Wouldn't the DC for the CDG be HIGHER if a Rogue were to Sneak Attack them ontop of his Dagger-Damage? And wouldn't an Assassin induce two Fortitude saves instead of a single by using this ability? (One for the CDG, one for his normal Death Attack ability?) I think so far people have misunderstood just what this House Rule is for. It's for ANYONE who sneaks and doesn't get Sneak Attack as a class ability. I see it as a way to add more flavor.. and potentially kill a few PCs. Which is always a good call. :D
#9 StevenO Apr 13, 2004 21:15:03	For someone to be completely unaware of your presence, I would say you just need to win the opposed rolls for hide and move silenty by 25+ points. Anything less than an outstanding success would give your target the smallest of warning of your presence and ruin you coup de grace. After all, attacking and hiding at the same time gives you a -20 on your hide check. This would make such an attack more likely for a very good sneak and less likely against someone normally very observant.
#10 zombiegleemax Apr 13, 2004 22:25:55	I've always maintained that the laws of physics and biology in the world of D&D are different from those in the real world. One only needs to take a look at the number of "extraordinary" - i.e. non-magical - abilities that break the laws of physics to see that. (Examples include uncanny dodge, regeneration, the Resist Energy feat from Masters of the Wild, and any number of epic feats.) People in D&D, even low level ones, are capable of things, without using magic, that are beyond the limits of what is humanly possible in the real world. This is, of course, more obvious at high levels, where fighters and barbarians can, literally, survive brief immersion in lava, and regularly limp away from falls at terminal velocity. Thus I have concluded that it's okay for D&D characters to be different from real-world humans. As a result, I've come up with a theory that explains the rules, with regards to AC and the coup de grace rules. Everybody with a Wisdom score of 1 or higher has a sixth sense for danger. That's the only explanation that makes sense to me. It explains why attacking a helpless target gives you +4 to hit and drops their Dex modifier to -5, while attacking somebody who's unaware of your presence gives you +2 to hit and drops their Dex modifier to 0. If your target didn't react to your attack at all, he'd be as easy to hit as if he were asleep or paralysed, right? And no, random movement from the target walking around doesn't explain that, because even somebody who's sitting down reading a book isn't counted as helpless. It isn't a very good sixth sense, because you still lose your Dex bonus down to 0. But you aren't as bad off as if you were helpless. Thus, when you get attacked unexpectedly, you still must have some idea of how to react. I could set up a thought experiment involving a sniper and run some explicit numbers, but I think you get the idea - an attack on an unaware target has a certain chance to be dodged. This idea is also borne out by the rules for Reflex saves. The book explicitly states that you keep your ability to make Reflex saves regardless of being flat-footed or unaware of the attack, as long as you're free to move (not bound, paralyzed or tightly enclosed). How is this possible without some kind of danger sense? Sure, this idea isn't realistic. But it fits with the rules. The rules aren't realistic. But they are heroic, and I'm a big fan of heroism. No hero deserved to be taken down by one shot from a sniper, or gutted by an invisible stalker in the bath.
#11 zombiegleemax Apr 13, 2004 22:54:31	I think WoTC deals with this issue better in its two other D20 settings: D20 Modern and Star Wars. In Star Wars, everything but the last 20 or so "HP" (Wound Points) are considered near misses or glancing blows (and these come off your Vitality Points, which go up each level to indicate increased experience). If you don't want to think about it as doing 50 damage to the guy (and him STILL surviving the massive damage) and him laughing it off, then think of it as "the well-trained sentinel sees your reflection in a mirror, and manages to move just enough so that the blow does not strike fully home" and dock HP accordingly. He still dies at -10, but you have a more realistic kill. If he's hardy enough to save against the 30-40 average damage from a full 10d6 sneak attack (more if you get initiative the first round), then he deserves to live. Or, go with D20 Modern's system and drastically reduce the massive damage threshold. Of course, the D20 Modern way the humans (Con 10-18) would quickly get wiped out by the dragons (Con 40).
#12 OrcLord Apr 14, 2004 0:32:25	I think there is merit to the ability, but the "must be at your mercy" condition is does not imply that he simply unaware of your presence. I think Ludo was going in the right direction when he said: "In order to be able to coup de grace an opponent, you have to basically be in a position to strike them in a vital area without a chance to miss." Someone who is bobbing and weaving in combat against another foe would be very difficult to "coup de grace", as would someone simply picking apples. I would consider a target that is not moving to be at your mercy. (Such as a guard standing prone, or someone stargazing). Your target needs to be nearly or completely motionless. You are intending to strike a vital area and every millimeter counts -- as a millimeter could be the difference between hitting an organ, or hitting bone.
#13 zombiegleemax Apr 14, 2004 1:35:44	Talmariel: I like the idea of the feat much better than simply the ability for all characters to use this type of CDG attack. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the idea that an invisible attacker could go nuts using this ability however. Would a character be considered unaware of an invisible opponent? Suppose the battle begins and a character on one side chugs a potion of invisibility. Although the characters on the other side would know that an extra, invisible opponent exists, would they truly be aware of that opponent? They would be unable to see the opponent, and with the action of battle may quickly loose track of the fact that this invisible attacker is even present at all. This circumstance seems to make the ability overpowered. BaronVonStevie, in the situation you describe, with the sleeping guard, wouldn't your character get a CDG anyway because the guard is helpless (he's sleeping, which is listed under CDG as a condition for which it applies) BaronVon ehhh... what can I say, I like the name :D BvS
#14 krelios Apr 14, 2004 15:02:37	Sure, this idea isn't realistic. But it fits with the rules. The rules aren't realistic. But they are heroic, and I'm a big fan of heroism. No hero deserved to be taken down by one shot from a sniper, or gutted by an invisible stalker in the bath. That sums it up pretty well. For those who enjoy the ultra-heroic aspect of D&D I think you'll agree with Seeker. I tend to like games where a player is always vulnerable to someone holding a knife at their throat or from one good arrow shot from a goblin, but that's my preference and I wouldn't discourage anyone who disagrees. That's probably why I like the mechanic for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay as much as I like the flavor of D&D.
#15 zombiegleemax Apr 15, 2004 9:38:48	I'd like to add that the target should be flatfooted. Now although you may say "Well if he's unaware he is flatfooted." But a character with the uncanny dodge ability is exempt from being caught flatfooted. Thus I think those rules should apply here.
#16 zombiegleemax Apr 16, 2004 7:56:00	Let me just say right off the bat that I like this idea a lot. It brings an element of fear into high level PC who felt that Spot and Listen weren't important enough. However, I think I've found a flaw in the mechanics. In order for the target to remain 'at your mercy' for a surprise coup de grace to work the action has to be done quick. You can not perform a Full Round action (coup de grace) in a surprise round. From the SRD: The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs. Thus, if you could find a way to do a coup de grace as a standard action (Gladiator PrC from Sword and Fist?) then this would work. Otherwise the target would become aware of you half way through your attack and no longer be 'at your mercy.'
#17 Talmariel Apr 16, 2004 13:15:48	My my, I'm honored by the presence of not one, but two barons! :D Shleppinstein, while an invisible attacker does deny your Dex bonus to AC, it does not put you at complete unawares, and therefore does not make you subject to this. I leave this to the domain of sneak attack damage. A character anticipating combat will be on their toes, alert, and likely moving somewhat. If they are aware of the presence of an invisible attacker, they are likely pacing about, turning in place, etc., and therefore foiling such a concentrated attack as a coup de grace. As a third alternative, and one I'll likely create another post for, I option called shots to my players at the start of any game. I treat it like attacking an object, usually with a -2 or -4 penalty to the attack roll. Striking a vital area (centermass, head, etc.) allows a successful hit to be treated as an automatically confirmed critical, resolved as normal. This is more potent in d20 Modern, or in D&D games where the lower massive damage threshold is used, because a critical hit almost always presents the threat of an instantly lethal blow (reducing you to -1 hit points). If it becomes a major factor in combat, I also include an Improved Called Shot feat, which negates the attack of opportunity, but not the penalty, because I feel it would be unbalanced. I would also consider a feat that would increase the critical hit multiplier when a critical hit is scored from a called shot, but such a feat would have relatively steep requirements. I'll create another post shortly to address that concept more fully.
#18 zombiegleemax Apr 21, 2004 12:47:04	In the d20 guide to the Deadlands game there is a rule very similar to this called "Gettin' the Drop". Basically it says the same thing, expanding on the Coup de Grace rules.
#19 archtyrant_terevoth Apr 25, 2004 23:07:29	If you want to improve the surprise attack, I'd allow all characters to utilize the assassin's death attack ability at a DC Of 10+ 1/2 character level + int modifier. A death attack does what you want it to do, increases the likelihood of killing minor opponents, and requires you take the guy completely by surprise (due to the 3 round charging up time for the attack). A CdG is far too powerful for someone to be haphazardly dealing out. The problem with a CdG is that you could kill anyone. I mean seriously a 5th level rogue could take out a 20th level fighter simply because he got him by surprise. I really don't think you want to shift the power gap that much. CdGs weren't meant for casual surprise attacks. They are literally an executioner swinging an axe for some kind on the chopping block, or slitting the throat of a held target. The only CdG rule I've considered instituting is the ability to CdG someone you've pinned with a successful grapple check, but this is mostly because to pin them in the first place, you've got to have beaten them grappling anyway.
#20 outsider_subtype Apr 26, 2004 10:46:53	As a house rule, this might make some sense for DMs who want a gritty atmosphere. However, I think that it causes a significant power shift towards classes that receive Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Spot as class skills. It feels unfair to expose fighters to such a coup de grace when the rules prohibit them from putting an effective number of ranks in Spot and Listen. A possible solution might be making Spot and Listen class skills for all classes, but that further muddies the class balance waters.
#21 Talmariel Apr 28, 2004 15:29:40	It only really poses a danger to characters with low Spot and Listen checks who aren't attentive. Even if a character is actively trying to detect danger, they aren't subject to this rule. Unless the character takes specific action otherwise, such as a Wizard preparing his spells, I generally assume they're looking around, even casually, which thwarts any attempts to use this coup de grace variant. It rewards caution more than high skills, although a character with high Spot and Listen is going to be more able to not pay direct attention to their environment without fear of being killed instantly, because regardless of inattention, they'll probably still detect an assailant using Move Silently and Hide as they approach. That sets up the ever-classic scenes where the target gives no sign of noticing the attack until the last minute, when the assailant enters melee range.
#22 zombiegleemax May 01, 2004 14:46:29	This is my opinion, but this seems to take away what makes the Rogue and the Assassin special. Take sneak attack from a rogue and give it to everyone, and you have a non-magical, non-singing bard for all intents and purposes, and giving a death blow to everyone robs the assassin PrC entirely of its signature ability. This is, of course, entirely from a mechanical perspective, not factoring in "roleplay" value for these classes. That being said, if I were attempting to do what you are, I would merely open up the Assassin's "Death Attack" as a feat that any class that has access to Sneak Attack may take, possibly restricting it to higher levels, but that's dependant upon how fatal of a game I would be running with this modification. My 2 cents.
#23 burning_blood May 26, 2004 21:42:15	Someone mentioned d20 Star Wars earlier. Under "Helpless Defenders" (p. 163 of the Revised Core Rulebook), in addition to the familiar text from the D&D rules, you'll find this line: "You can sometimes approach a target who is unaware of your presence, get adjacent to him, and treat him as helpless. If the target is in combat or some other tense situation... then that target can't be considered unaware." So this would seem to support the idea of a "stealth kill", while at the same time limiting its use to non-combat situations - such as sneaking up on a guard. Although any character can perform it, rogues and assassins would still be better at this sort of thing because of their special abilities and selection of skills.
#24 zombiegleemax May 30, 2004 10:00:22	The D&D rules don't really support the notion of getting any bonuses against someone who doesn't know you're there, unless you're a rogue or assassin. However, I believe that allowing a coup de grace would be excessively powerful, so my alternative would be the following: Someone who is unaware of your presence and who is not expecting danger (which rules out anyone in combat) is not helpless, but is considered unaware. When you attack an unaware target, your first hit is an automatic critical threat. (Not a critical hit, just a threat.) This gives a significant advantage to you when you get the drop on someone, while staying away from the "instant death" capability of a coup de grace.
#25 wolfhawk Jun 08, 2004 23:00:15	To be "otherwise helpless", I would think that a being would have to be in a state of decreased mobility. A realistic example of this would be the actions of the modern sniper who can essentially "coup-de-grace" with a bullet. These individuals are trained, however to wait for a moment when the target is not moving. People in melee combat in particular, are notorious for sudden changes in direction. The auto-hit auto-crit ability is totally unrealistic in such cases. I agree that a rogue should have the full benefit of a sneak attack in such cases, but the instant kill of a coup-de-grace is rather overpowered. I would suggest waiting for a momentary pause by the victim represented by a die roll. If the victim makes that fateful pause, then let the sneak attack be a coup-de-grace. If the victim is otherwise too involved in the fight, force an attack roll since it gives the victim a chance to unexpectedly move out of the way. If you want to, you can make the "moving but unaware" category for coup-de-grace have the auto-crit but not the auto-hit. This can be especially bad if for those with fumble rules. In this case, a fumble could very likely kill off a friendly PC. Also, patterned movement is somewhat predictable. Guards marching a standard patrol between two points will perform that fatal pause at each end of the patrol path, so I recommend that at those points, the unaware victim is considered truly helpless.
#26 zombiegleemax Jun 19, 2004 16:32:54	Originally posted by Ricky Someone who is unaware of your presence and who is not expecting danger (which rules out anyone in combat) is not helpless, but is considered unaware. When you attack an unaware target, your first hit is an automatic critical threat. (Not a critical hit, just a threat.) Yea I really like this idea the best. As it would likely easily kill any commoner, but the more formidable foes wouldn't go down. The only problem with this rule is that it makes it much easier and more rewarding to kill someone with a battleaxe, or similar heavy, hard to wield weapons. This doesn't really make much sense. The system would have to be revised a little so that it rewarded daggers and swords as it would be easier to accomplish. It would also mean more rouges would start using these weapons instead of there favored weapons. Sorry this is so badly worded, but I am having a difficult time expressing this. Well it still works, it just makes those weapons unbalanced under these circumstances, as it completely negates the use of a sword over an axe (more chances for critical, compared to more damage when you actually critical) and similar type weapons. If anyone can find a fix for this small problem, that would be great. It makes sense for the fighter with the spear who quickly thrusts it through the unsuspecting guard's back (I mean how else would you manage to do a sneak attack with a spear) to do more damage then the rogue with the dagger slitting the guard's throat. Well not really, but you see what I mean. Ok sorry for the entire rambling of this post, but I really like the rule, and am not too sure if we should change it a bit. So my final conclusion = I have no idea.
#27 crandor Jun 21, 2004 20:53:28	If they're moving at all, there's no way you should get a cdg. If you sneak up on a guard, however, and he's standing stock-still by a door and doesn't know you're there, any DM who hasn't already been giving you cdg's is just plain dumb. And so are auto-crits without auto-hits. If you almost didn't hit the guy at all, how are you going to write off hitting him in the right spot? If you must allow something for "moving but unaware", take the suggestion I saw somewhere above here and give an auto-hit but not and auto-crit (aka critical threat). However, I like the idea of keeping the fort save or die in this situation; picture the rock in the scorpion king picking the guy up by his neck with a bow in that one cave place. If you're gonna try for a low-pressure critical threat, go for the neck (or similar body region)(implying a chance of instant death). There are already enough bonuses for attacking someone who doesn't know you're there (it's called flat-footed, people); just leave well-enough alone. If this situation arises enough for it to be an issue, you're already a rogue, so shut up and take what you've got, which is considerable.
#28 worldconquerer Jun 24, 2004 18:15:49	There are few rules in D&D dealing with cutting throats, slitting wrists, decapitations, or other attacks that would kill an opponent with no chance of survival. I'm completely with Talmarial here.
#29 zombiegleemax Jul 03, 2004 21:55:07	Way too overpowered. I'm sorry, its just too overpowered. A CDG is basically an attack from which death is inevitable, with a Fort save DC 10 + Dmg Dealt (which is always immense, considering you always get a critical hit). And I believe someone said that this ability is harder to do, more strict, than the Death Attack of the Assassin. Not true. To do a Death Attack, you have to study your victim for 3 full round actions, doing Nothing in these 3 rounds. That includes moving, etc. And also, the Fort save isn't nearly as high as the Fort save of a CDG. To get access to the ability to end an opponents life by a single, precise stab, you have to forgo levels in other classes to get a prestige class with the Death Attack. This variation belittles the significance of that loss. Okay, I'll give you this: it is unrealistic to suppose that anyone is incapable of slashing the next of someone who is unaware of them, and thus killing them. BUT , that’s what the Sneak Attack is for. A rogue's finesse allows them to know where vital parts are, so when an opponent's DEX mod is nonexistent (they aren't trying to dodge), they get a load more of damage. And whoever said the thing about taking a -20 to Hide when attacking, I totally agree. Its a rule. That is a rule because not every person in the world is adept at being stealthy, let alone trying to slide a metal blade to within a millimeter of someone's neck without them realizing it until its too late. Not everyone can do that---in fact, very few can. Not even Fighters or Barbarians, I would say---they are much more furious in battle, dealing damage from simply hitting: their damage does not come from precision and planning. So, this is my reasoning. A fighter, who has trained his whole life with fighting with the Bastard Sword (Lets assume he's a lvl 10 fighter.) He takes off his platemail, so that he will be more quiet. He approaches his victim, who has their back turned, reading a book. Here’s where my opinion comes in. The fighter would hit the person, WOULD HIT THE PERSON almost without a doubt (flat footed), and would deal a crapload of damage, simply for being a fighter with a bastard sword, hitting someone. If this didn't kill the person, oh well. The fighter is NOT trained in precision-kills. He probably left a massive, gaping, bloody wound in the person, but he didn't slide his bastard sword into his heart and kill him. And I'm giving the fighter too much credit. He probably has no ranks in Move Silently, considering its not a class skill, and his Dex, even if its really high, probably only gives a +4 or +5 mod. Though he can certainly move a lot more silently than the average citizen, he cannot get to within a hair's breadth of a person without them knowing. And even if he managed that, he is untrained in precise stabs, and doesn't know where vital organs are. However, an Assassin, a SPECIALIZED PRESTIGE CLASS, probably has massive bonuses in Move Silently and Hide. The Assassin gets about 5 ft away, and studies the target for 3 full rounds. 3 full rounds, to know the way the person is shifting slightly. 3 full rounds to study the way the person is breathing. If the Assassin (or even a Rogue) stabbed this person, Sneak Attack damage alone would probably end the person's life, representing a precise blow on an immobile opponent. But the Assassin goes a step farther, STUDYING his opponent, making SURE that there are no errors (once again, this is overboard, because sneak attack damage would probably kill any normal person, or even a strong person for that matter). He stabs with the Death Attack. The person either drops dead, or succeeds on his Fort Save (extremely low chance for a commoner)---in which the Assassin, in his 3 rounds of study (about 18 seconds), slipped up and slid his dagger into the body, just missing the heart. The hit was still probably utterly deadly, with Sneak Attack damage and all, and if the target is even conscious (which is amazing), surely they are within a thread of their life. Anyways, all I'm saying is that most anyone trained in fighting (like a fighter) could slash someone, aware or not, and easily inflict a critical wound, EASILY kill. BUT--a Coup De Gras represents undeniable death---and no matter how unrealistic you might think it is to not be able to inflict this kind of death, it makes some sense. And once again, the massive damage a melee class spews out anyways represents their ability to kill, whether their opponent is aware of them or not---Death Attack represents their ability to kill with precision WHEN the opponent is unaware. A coup de gras wouldn't work in the situation you describe. I imagine it like this: A clumsy fighter, without armor, somehow manages to sneak up to his target, and they don't realize he's there. He stabs his sword into them--but they are not Helpless, and as the blade goes in they react, turning about or whatnot-- and the attack is not fatal, because they are not HELPLESS. Honestly, they aren't. What does the word helpless mean to you? To me, I imagine someone as HELPLESS when they are completely immobile: paralyzed, sleeping, when chance of failure is nonexistent. NONEXISTANT. That’s what a coup de gras represents. No matter how slim the chances, a commoner who is conscious and mobile, has a chance of surviving an attack---------even if it’s dealt by an assassin. ..../end rant.
#30 zombiegleemax Jul 10, 2004 17:40:07	Originally posted by jetmaster007 Yea I really like this idea the best. As it would likely easily kill any commoner, but the more formidable foes wouldn't go down. The only problem with this rule is that it makes it much easier and more rewarding to kill someone with a battleaxe, or similar heavy, hard to wield weapons. This doesn't really make much sense. I understand your point, but the thing to realize is that the battleaxe would be more effective if your opponent was not aware of you. The distinction is that a dagger (for instance) makes it easier to hide, because it's small and requires little movement compared to a huge battleaxe who has to swing it in a wide arc. However, if the guy with the battleaxe remains unnoticed, then the axe will be much more effective.
#31 Skikka Jul 13, 2004 7:21:08	Well, people sometimes have near death encounters. However, a commoner will almost never survive a CdG. From the SRD "Coup de grace [Full][AoO: Yes] Description: A character can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. A character can also use a bow or crossbow, provided the character is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. If the target survives the damage, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Its overkill, but a rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace. A character can't deliver a coup de grace against an opponent that is immune to critical hits, such as a golem. " 10 + Damage Dealt will likely be more than a commoner can make. Note as well that the Sneak Attack counts towards damage dealt. And attacks that drop someone to below zero HP but don't kill them will result in them dying in less than a minute.