Rated 1-10, with "10" being "most powerful" and "1" being "leastepowerful".
*= not enough responses to mean much
D= highly debated - the ranks were widespread
C= consensus – the ranks were often the same
9.4 Druid C
8.6 Wizard C
8.6 Cleric
8.6 Artificer *C
8.1 Psion C
7.7 Wu Jen * C
7.5 Psychic Warrior
7.5 Favoured Soul
7.4 Spirit Shaman D
6.6 Shugenja
6.5 Warmage
6.4 Sorc D
6.2 Warlock
5.9 Rogue
5.8 Barbarian
5.6 Wilder*
5.4 Monk
5.5 Scout
5.2 Ranger C
5.0 Paladin C
4.7 Bard D!!!!!
4.1 Ninja
4.2 Hexblade,
4.0 Marshal
3.8 Spellthief *
3.7 Swashbuckler D
3.5 Fighter
2.4 Samurai C
2.4 Soulknife C
1.5 Healer C
There were some 30 counted replies. Note that I made an arbitrary decision that any class with 6 or less replies wasn't going to be included- but I put them there at the bottom, for those who want to know anyway.
C = A general Consensus
D = Much Debate & Disagreement
* had less than 15 but more than 6 "votes"
10 is the highest or "most fun"- 1 is the least fun to play.
8.2- Warlock*
7.4 Sorceror
7.3 Rogue= C
6.9 Psion*D
7.0 Ninja* C
6.8 Swashbuckler*
6.4 Bard D
6.2 Druid C
6.1 Monk D
6.0 Wizard D
5.9 Warmage*
5.9 Soulknife*
5.9 Cleric
5.6 Barbarian
5.5 Hexblade*
5.5 Psychic Warrior*
5.4 Ranger D
5.2 Paladin D
5.2 Wilder*
5.0 Fighter D
4.1 Samurai D*
3.8 Healer *D!!!!! (most disputed)
6 "votes" or less (thus- not in order)
6.7 Artificer
6.8 Favoured Soul
6.0 Scout
4.5 Marshal
7.0 Shugenga
7.5 Spellthief
5.0 Wu jen
6.6 Spirit Shaman
Some results were interesting. The Favoured Soul, despite being in two books, and the source of several threads which complained how overpowered it is - seems to be played hardly at all.
Warlock was a big surprise at #1. And despite all the complaints, WotC must be doing something right with the much disputed Sorcerer, as it came in #1 among all the PHB classes! Note that the much maligned Bard came in at #7, and actually had the most votes for "most fun= 10"!
People seem to like casters & sneaky guys most.
Again, I want to thank everyone who contributed to either thread.
I mean, one of my favorite characters of all time is a Sorceress themed around thunder, lightning, wind, and storms. Claimed that she's got a trace amount of Air Elemental in her, and only picked spells that fit the theme, even when that meant a sub-optimal build. Absolutely rocks with any kind of themed caster.
Rogue and Psion for pretty much the same reasons. You can make literally ANYTHING out of a Rogue, and the Psion has lots of customizability as well. Except for the Warlock, I gotta pretty much agree with the top-fun rankings.
I mean, one of my favorite characters of all time is a Sorceress themed around thunder, lightning, wind, and storms. Claimed that she's got a trace amount of Air Elemental in her, and only picked spells that fit the theme, even when that meant a sub-optimal build. Absolutely rocks with any kind of themed caster.
.
Cool idea.
There were some "Sorcerer Bloodline feats" in a Dragon magazine some time ago that would somewhat codify this idea.A straight Cleric with the right Domains can take the place of any of the other three members of a party. Same for the Druid. A Wizard has a much harder time doing so.
But I am merely a man, and not a survey...
10 is the highest or "most fun"- 1 is the least fun to play.
5.0 Fighter D
Rated 1-10, with "10" being "most powerful" and "1" being "leastepowerful".
3.5 Fighter
While the list seems to exonerate the sorcerer as being a fun class, the Fighter does remarkably poorly on both lists. It feels underpowered but ending up as the third from the bottom in terms of fun classes and utterly insignificant in terms of power is not a good thing.
10 is the highest or "most fun"- 1 is the least fun to play.
8.2- Warlock*
7.4 Sorceror
7.3 Rogue= C
6.9 Psion*D
7.0 Ninja* C
6.8 Swashbuckler*
6.4 Bard D
6.2 Druid C
I am not surprised at the top of the Most Fun list being the "Bad Boys". These are classes that - by the nature of the class - buck the law, and allow for a very non-lawful approach.
And it's very interesting that most people admit that the actual power of a class doesn't define how much fun it brings the player. It's also very interesting that the 3 most powerful classes are very stereotypical. When players hear the word "Wizard" they immediately think about and old man that holds a staff of arcane power in one hand and a big heavy spellbook in the other hand standing in front of a tower with a raven on it's shoulder. We all have read the same books and seen the same movies. The same can be said about cleric and druid, while both can - with a small amount of creativity - be customized to differentiate the character from others to make it unique, most people have the stereotypical wizard in the back of their head.
All three classes are most effective in specific situations. One does not imagine a wizard that prepared himself for a fight against a white dragon with masses of fire spells is suddenly challenged with two iron golems which are immune to many spells and are actually healed by fire. A cleric as powerful as he can be against outsiders, undead, creatures of opposing alignment can have terrible problems with creatures that can teleport and attack from a greater distance (like sorcerers). Constructs and Druids often have a hard time fighting incorporeal creatures but they can adopt very good to different combat situations which kind of explains why they top the list.
Now if you look at the classes that have been voted weak--all weaker than bard--share IMO one important weakness - they lack abilities that can be used in a variety of situations. Sure they can use their skills to steal or craft something but everyone can do that. Our top 3 can do quite a number of things outside of combat. They can use their spells to create (a wizard with some time wall of stone and fabricate can easily create the buildings for a small town, a fort or fabricate statues (if he has the needed craft modifier), a cleric and a druid can pull of similar tricks but let's not forget one of the major strengths of wizard, cleric, druid and the artificer: the crafting of magic items. Scribe scroll alone can increase character's versatility greatly let alone craft staff.
Now lets look at the poor unloved fighter, he can train animal (though a ranger of a druid might do this much better - they can speak with them) or he could learn a craft and earn some sp per week with basketweaving. (Of course he can earn more if he takes skill focus: craft: basketweaving.
) And if he has nothing to do he could go into a bar and make a drinking contest. Though if you want to get drunk the sorcerer can get there far quicker, if you want to win a drinking contest barbarians have the upper edge and a cleric or a druid can get it's head clear after it with remove poison if need arises. I don't want to claim that the fighter is a useless class. He is good at fighting if you have many encounters per day against magic resistant foes that are not vulnerable to sneak attack or undead, outsiders, constructs, elementals, incorporeal, have to ability to fly, etc. This might sound a little hard but I guess that is what most people think about the fighter whether it's true of not. BTW, it doesn't surprise that the top 12 are actually casters, because they can accomplish task other non-magical characters can't. The reason why the healer is regarded as the weakest class might be that it's a class that can mostly react on the enemy and is mostly powerless unless someone gets hurt, sick or killed (it does lack the ability to start Armageddon as well. 
)So why aren't the most powerful classes the ones with the most fun to play?
The reason is simple if you look at the top 7 classes--they have few if any restrictions:
No code of conduct
No complicated spell preparation
No need to ask a higher being for your powers
Difficult to catch you off guard - All the classes aren't much weaker if they get caught without their spellbooks, their shiny armor. The opposite is true a rouge who always has a weapon close. Casters usually have blasting spells ready even if you wake them up in the middle of the night. A bard can sing without armor and weapons. And let's not forget the warlocks blast that he can use 24 hours per day.
Which brings us to the things make other seemingly less enjoyable characters:
Limited use -classes like the healer are very useful in certain situations and next to useless in others)
Code of conduct - laws and restrictions that prevent a character from doing things or punish him if he fails to adhere to them restricts the player's freedom of choice. Examples for impossible behavior are: a paladin burns down a town without good reason or lies to the legitimate authority, a cleric starts to act against his god's teachings and doesn't receive spells thereafter, a druid gets punished for burning down a forest or the extermination of a species by losing all of his powers)
Reliance on their equipment (fighters and samurais are essentially useless if they are forced to act without their weapons and armor)
And now the most important:
If you enjoy playing a seemingly weak or useless character like a fighter or adept just ignore what I said or what other might say as long as you (and to a certain part the players you play with) enjoy it.
Power level (unarguably the highest) 9.4
Fun level (eh somewhere in the middle) 6.2
Now what does that say about mechanical power over funtime construction?
Personally I'd rank Fighters an 8 for fun. It's is class that can go in so many different ways. I just wish the flexibility in construction was manifest in the flexibility of play. You can make a fighter do nearly anything, but once you have his settings in place your options seem a lot more limited. It's like each fighter is fun to build, but your always ready to get 'em killed and make another one.
I don't want to claim that the fighter is a useless class. He is good at fighting if you have many encounters per day against magic resistant foes that are not vulnerable to sneak attack or undead, outsiders, constructs, elementals, incorporeal, have to ability to fly, etc.
Fighters lack skills, eh?
That's why my brother and I play the Oriental Adventures Samurai.
Anytime I do anything, as long as it is not a gross violation of my code of honour or against the principles of good in the book of exalted deeds isn't necessarily an act that destroys my class levels. If I can justify the act to myself (I stole my pal's armour while he was paralyzed because I don't have my own with me, the gold was taken to pay to heal me after he took revenge and I destroyed him, etc., etc.) then I have effectively made my character free of guilt and therefore immune to the losing class level idea.
After that I got my hands on a wish at a low level and became a Half-Celestial so fast that my DM was still reeling. Now I can have so much fun because I am immune to almost everything and am so powerful that I am pretty close to having an army of my own. The idea there was to forget all about adventuring because it was too strict and didn't let me utulize the Paladin to it's fullest, I just did what I felt like as long as it was good or justified.
I can understand why most people wouldn't like being a Paladin...I hated it at first. Always out front, taking traps to the face, getting destroyed and then wasting all my healing on my n00bz0r friends. My DM is pretty cool and lets us do what we want, he just kinda referees. I like that because then we can adventure whenever or just waste a session in town, as long as we're advancing our stories it's all cool.
I also think that Paladins should be much higher up on the power list. They are immune to pretty much everything and you can make them be almost as good as a Barbarian if you know what you're doing. I'm better than a Barbarian, but I've got a template so that doesn't count. I can use any type of armour, the bonus feat as a Human helps but I got changed into a Wood Elf so as far as our interpretation went, I keep the feat because it's knowledge and your mind doesn't change. A Paladin with high charisma has more defense than most classes, grab a Ring of Evasion and you are set.
I also like to use a Whisper Gnome Warlock when given the chance. I must admit, that is the most fun class I have ever played. You don't have to think about all the spells you have left, you just use them as the situation arises. The trick is you need more foresight than a Wizard because you prepare a handful of spells for the rest of your character's life. It adds excitement when a Warlock shatters a Bearded Devil's glaive or simply shatters the beam on which the Dretch were standing.
I agree on the power rating too, they end up doing a fair amount of damage with constant touch attacks. The main problem is when the player gets smart enough to realize that he can use Devil's Sight with Darkness to make an area where only he can see and everything else is blind. A Whisper Gnome can cast Silence as well to make it almost impossible to find the Warlock.
Monks are more powerful than that, especially if they are given the Vow of Poverty. I'm sick and tired of Monks destroying me in combat with their Improved Disarm and Flurry of Blows. I don't want to fight Pistis Sophia and I fear that she may eat my soul. They also gain immunities to almost everything and eventually become native outsiders. Very powerful, but not too popular because Lawful characters are boring. The Good/Evil axis is of no consequence, but it's hard to play an evil party because their isn't as many cool good monsters to bash. Half the fun is what you fight, am I right?
I despise the Psychic Warrior, I can't play that class for the life of me. Their are a few other things, but it's a sweet list and I love it. I'm going to print it off and show it to everyone at the next session. Hope you take these posts into account too!
Here's my personal list on experience:
Power
----------
10.0 Ranger (Archer- greater manyshot)
9.0 Warmage (powerful sorcerer, wears big armour)
9.0 Druid (must get smart party, preparation makes it tougher)
9.0 Monk (never been, Monks must use their abilities)
8.0 Paladin (high defense class, work on offense)
7.5 Psion (powerful, but needs to get many PP)
7.0 Sorcerer (buy a wand or something, real powerful)
6.5 Rogue (boost AC and go melee - flank)
6.0 Warlock (only one invocation each turn)
5.0 Cleric (don't like to prepare, spontaneous casting bad if evil)
5.0 Scout (pretty strong, but quickly silenced)
4.0 Soulknife (needs to improve faster)
4.0 Barbarian (rage is strong, but not enough options)
3.5 Wilder (needs more powers)
3.0 Bard (jack of all trades, master of none)
2.0 Wizard (preparing spells is boring, good for multiclassing)
2.0 Wu Jen (same as Wizard, different format)
1.0 Spellthief (terrible, too many factors that never seem present)
0.01 Psychic Warrior (be either fighter, or prestige into psionics)
--- Fighter (power depends entirely on player, varies 3-8)
Fun
----------
10.0 Warlock
8.0 Paladin (more fun as Black Guard)
8.0 Warmage (real fun, like an arcane Druid)
8.0 Druid (only DMed as a Druid, but it rocked)
7.5 Monk (never been, told to say 10 by friend =P)
7.0 Rogue (haven't been in long time, remember it was fun)
7.0 Sorcerer (multiclassed as Psion, Cerebremancer prestige)
7.0 Ranger (Melee is fun, archer isn't)
6.5 Psion (best part was psionic feats)
5.0 Cleric (must be skilled player, choose domains carefully)
5.0 Wilder (like a Warlock, without infinite casting)
4.5 Barbarian (Dwarves with mithral armour, need more rage)
4.0 Soulknife (don't play with Rogues, intend to throw)
3.0 Bard (must prestige, also get mithral shirt with Twilight on it)
3.0 Spellthief (was too limited, tired of not being able to steal)
3.0 Fighter (multiclass a MUST, get an Ex Weapon and TWF)
2.5 Scout (too much running around in circles)
2.0 Wizard (not enough SPD)
2.0 Wu Jen (same as Wizard, different format)
0.01 Psychic Warrior (don't be, very boring)
Never Played (or read)
----------
--- Artificer
--- Favoured Soul
--- Spirit Shaman
--- Shugenja
--- Ninja
--- Hexblade
--- Marshal
--- Swashbuckler
--- Healer
--- Samurai
These are certainly two very interesting lists danielinthewolvesden, you really did a good job compiling and presenting it.
And it's very interesting that most people admit that the actual power of a class doesn't define how much fun it brings the player.
If you enjoy playing a seemingly weak or useless character like a fighter or adept just ignore what I said or what other might say as long as you (and to a certain part the players you play with) enjoy it.
Thank you!
Yes, I thought that even when some of the same folks voted, they often voted a class "fun" when they had ranked it middling for "power". Still power helps a class be "fun", especially survival abilities, as dying isn't much fun. :D
I
I also think that Paladins should be much higher up on the power list.
I agree on the power rating too, they end up doing a fair amount of damage with constant touch attacks. The main problem is when the player gets smart enough to realize that he can use Devil's Sight with Darkness to make an area where only he can see and everything else is blind.
I despise the Psychic Warrior, I can't play that class for the life of me.
If enough folks post here, I'll recalculate.
Do note that 3.5 darkness is only concealment.
I agree 100% on Psionics in general. :P
My ratings
Power: 7.3 (or so)
Fun: 9.9 (Simply because of flexibility)
With the Feats, Human Fighters can fix almost any problem.
Not enough Skills? Human. Or Skill focus.
Not enough HP? Toughness
Too low an AC? Combat Expertise
My best character was a fighter. He was a Lvl.3 who I was driving in the direction of the Devoted Defender Prestige Class. His feats were: Ambidexterity, Two weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise, Improved Shield Bash
He used a pair of Spiked Heavy Steel Shields as his weapons. Let's see... I believe, with Full-Plate and the shields, and his 16 dex... he had a...
22 AC, with a max of 26. In English, he was the meatshield. And Fun as heck to play. Then we ran across a rust monster. 'Nuff said.
All in All, the fighter's flexibility allows your imagination to go wild.
Things I want to do
Fighter with a 2-bladed sword (Did it.)
Fighter with Throw anything, a couple bags of holding and many Longswords.
Fighter with Two Sheilds (Did it)
Fighter who used a Grappling Hook as a weapon.
But how about ranking the rest?
The Cowdragon
I'm thinking of playing a hoplite type character in an upcoming campaign. [snip] I want him to do okay in a stand up fight, but really excel at a full on charge!
This is contradictory. Hoplites didn't charge. They were masters of the "stand up fight." Hoplites wore heavy armor (medium compared to a European knight, but heavier than any other soldier of their time) and marched in formation. The closest they ever came to a charge was a swift jog, and this was used against enemies like the Persians, who's power was heavily dependent on archers; a couple hundred heavily armored Hoplites linking shields at a forward/upward angle could easily jog through the fire of a ten times their number of archers at the time and then decimate them and their comparatively lightly armored protectors (this is why the Persian invasions of Greece failed; at one point a group of Spartans actually did win a battle that was roughly 10:1 numerically against them on an open field).
Had they been against English archers from a thousand years later they'd likely have died in droves, but the Persians didn't have the Welsh longbow. Hoplites were tanks; slow, strong, and hard as heck to kill. If in formation, they could stand against a cavalry charge more often than not (mind you that this was centuries before the invention of stirrups, which led to cavalry's supremacy in Europe); even Alexander the Great's legendary horse phalanx, the "Companions," almost always attacked from the sides or rear of enemy formations or into a break in the lines created by Macedonian Hoplites.
An accurate Hoplite character would go for feats like Combat Expertise, Hold the Line, Phalanx Fighting, and Formation Expert. Heavy armor, heavy wood shield, shortspear, and a short sword.
T
An accurate Hoplite character would go for feats like Combat Expertise, Hold the Line, Phalanx Fighting, and Formation Expert. Heavy armor, heavy wood shield, shortspear, and a short sword.
More or less right, but they used a long spear one handed. I'd say in their case, it just made it a martial weapon. They wore Medium armor, the "Breastplate" is almost exactly Hoplite armor.
But other than those two quibbles, correct.
An accurate Hoplite character would go for feats like Combat Expertise, Hold the Line, Phalanx Fighting, and Formation Expert. Heavy armor, heavy wood shield, shortspear, and a short sword.
Gonna use a bunch of those crazy feats from the miniatures handbook. Hurling Charge, Powerful Charge, Weapon Specialization, Phalanxe Fighting, Dash, Leadership(for his private army). Should be a blast. I want him to do okay in a stand up fight, but really excel at a full on charge! Can't wait.
With the Feats, Human Fighters can fix almost any problem.
Not enough Skills? Human. Or Skill focus.
Not enough HP? Toughness
Too low an AC? Combat Expertise
As I said - SO fun to build, but only interesting for one or two blow out games before you get boored with that particular monster of a character.
For Dungeon Masters teams of fighters built in PC style.. mad fun. If you like all that paperwork of course - then again if you didnt you wouldnt be the DM.
(Power/Fun) a "-" means I haven't had enough experience to know how fun.
Druid 10/7
Wizard 8/8
Cleric 8/7
Favoured Soul 6/-
Spirit Shaman 6/-
Warmage 5/3
Sorceror 7/9
Warlock 6/-
Rogue 8/9
Barbarian 9/9
Monk 6/4
Ranger 6/7
Paladin 8/7
Bard 5/10
Ninja 5/4
Hexblade 6/5
Spellthief 5/5
Swashbuckler 3/6
Fighter 5/8
Samurai 4/6
Add in a d8 HD, 3/4 bab, decent weapon and armor proficiency, and some solid (though weaker then druids) special abilities and you have a SOLID class, one of the top 5, if not 3. The ghost form, ghost warrior, Chastise and ward abilities (auto heal when you reach 0? so worth it), as well as an emergency, though limited, True Rez are all solid.
The moral: Don't underestimate classes without giving them the best circumstances (you give the magic-users the best spells and equipment they can access, along with pre-buff time; give the fighter the best feats and equipment he can access too, and no pre-buff time).
I do, in fact. Or Fey blood, or something like that.
I also love the idea of 'blooded' Sorcs. in my campaign world, custom built by me and my gaming crew, the Sorc has become a blooded mage, the bloodlines have most often been dragon blooded or demon blooded. I love the idea of Fey blood though hadn't had that come up yet.
On the thematic builds, I think any class can be very fun if you take the time to do a themed build and one of my favorite characters of all time was a fighter I had built. Background and character detail can totally make or break a characters 'fun level'.
Why is fighter always considered underpowered? For a wimpy +2 LA from half-ogre (whose strength bonus more than makes up from the lost attack bonus), you can give yourself spiked chain proficiency, 15 foot reach with said chain, improved initiative combat reflexes, improved trip, weapon focus, and weapon specialization in said chain. This fighter is now capable of quite easily taking apart any spellcasters, who, after being tripped, are utterly useless..
Spellcasters can cast while prone.
But yes, the fighter is undervalued in the poll. What is important to note that the poll is for 20 levels. The fighter is one of the best classes in the game for 4 levels (and oddly, the Druid is a crud class for the 1st 4 levels). The Fighter (as your post mentioned) is really best when he goes into a good PrC. I see very very few level 20 fighters being played, but spellcasters do go nicely for 20 levels.
As for Fighter, I love 'em until about 10th level. They really just get better at whatever path they had chosen after that. The other "fun" classes seem to continue broadening their repertoires all the way to 20th level.
Interestingly, the WotC article of a few weeks ago seemed to indicate that internally, they feel cleric is the most powerful class.
As for Fighter, I love 'em until about 10th level. They really just get better at whatever path they had chosen after that. The other "fun" classes seem to continue broadening their repertoires all the way to 20th level.
It's number three in my poll, but only by a nose to the Wizard, they are just about the same. Only the Druid is clearly more powerful, and that's because of one Feat--the one that allows spellcasting while wildshape. The Fighter only needs a few extra branches for his Feat trees, and a couple extra feats.
It's number three in my poll, but only by a nose to the Wizard, they are just about the same. Only the Druid is clearly more powerful, and that's because of one Feat--the one that allows spellcasting while wildshape. The Fighter only needs a few extra branches for his Feat trees, and a couple extra feats.
Are these results still valid given how significantly the Druid was changed post-errata?
Are these results still valid given how significantly the Druid was changed post-errata?
That's still being debated, AFAIK.
7/8 Warlock
8/9 Sorcerer
6/7 Rogue
? Psion
7/8 Ninja
4/6 Swashbuckler
7/7 Bard
10/6 Druid
4/3 Monk
8/9 Wizard
6/8 Warmage
? Soulknife
9/7 Cleric
7/5 Barbarian
6/8 Hexblade
? Psychic Warrior
6/7 Ranger
7/7 Paladin
? Wilder
3/5 Fighter
4/3 Samurai
? Healer
9/5 Artificer
9/9 Favoured Soul
5/6 Scout
? Marshal
? Shugenga
? Spellthief
? Wu jen
? Spirit Shaman
Medlshapers/Tome of Magic casters = 9
Limited Range Spellcasters (Warlock, Warmage, Spellthief)= 8
All Other Classes = 6
Soulknife = 5
Healer = 4
Complete Warrior Samurai = -1 (yes, NEGATIVE one)
I'll be glad to explain how CW Samurai is the most horribly designed class EVER to whomever wishes to know! :D
There's a lot of variety possible, they can be fairly brash and boisterous--and back it up. Besides, I can envision myself as the fighter easier than any other class. IRL, I'm a boxer, so I have an easy time empathizing with the fighters. (Not the monks for me, since there's none of the mysticism.)
Fighters are completely non-magical people making their way in a spellslinger's world, and doing it well.
As for power, in the games I've played, a party ca get by lacking almost anything--except a good fighter. I'd rate the fighter high up there--perhaps an 8.
PS. An unequipped fighter is far better off than an unequipped wizard. Sticks can make fine weapons, and "Improved Unarmed Combat" is always one of my earlier Feats.
Wizards can be very versatile, but have the added benefit of requiring careful planning--the class of choice when I feel like being meticulous.
Broad Range Spellcasters/Manifesters (Clerics, Druids, Psions, Shugenjas, Sorcerors, Wizards, Wu Jen) = 10
Medlshapers/Tome of Magic casters = 9
Limited Range Spellcasters (Warlock, Warmage, Spellthief)= 8
All Other Classes = 6
Soulknife = 5
Healer = 4
Complete Warrior Samurai = -1 (yes, NEGATIVE one)
I'll be glad to explain how CW Samurai is the most horribly designed class EVER to whomever wishes to know! :D
More or less what my poll said. Healer works well in large groups, as I found out.
Anyone?
And if I'm not doing that, I'm researching new spells (finally finished that planar gate) and conducting magical experiments on my citizens. (benevolent of course: now they're all smart!) So for pure fun and things to play around with, wizard gets 10/10 for fun and close to that in power too.
They can pimp so much damage out of wands that it quickly becomes ludicrous with the proper build. While each attack might use an entire wand, its generally enough to just say the target dies, regardless of hitpoints or defenses. And being that they can make and use every last magical item in the game, it’s never a question about them having the right equipment for the job.
With enough preparation, they can literally do anything they want. Basically, they are to the Wizard what the Wizard is to the Sorcerer. Not as easy to play due to having to prepare everything ahead of time, but much stronger overall because of that flexibility.
What is important to note that the poll is for 20 levels. The fighter is one of the best classes in the game for 4 levels (and oddly, the Druid is a crud class for the 1st 4 levels).
Based on this, I would say every major spellcaster save Cleric should start out as a level 1 fighter. There's no reason not to do this with the current system. Perhaps spellcasters should start out stronger and have their progression muted.
While the list seems to exonerate the sorcerer as being a fun class, the Fighter does remarkably poorly on both lists. It feels underpowered but ending up as the third from the bottom in terms of fun classes and utterly insignificant in terms of power is not a good thing.
There's another thread on this. A fighter does one thing and one thing only - fight. All of the other classes have much more scope for roleplay.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=785729
I do not have any hard data, but it seems like the classes from ToB/BoNS would rank very high if we did a new poll.
Based on this, I would say every major spellcaster save Cleric should start out as a level 1 fighter. There's no reason not to do this with the current system. Perhaps spellcasters should start out stronger and have their progression muted.
Or perhaps a choice of any NPC class, except Adept?
But hardly Warlock, tho, and maybe not Sorc. But certainly 9.4 Druid C
Wizard C
Artificer *C
Psion C
and maybe Cleric.
Druid 7.63
Artificer 7.59
Psion 7.48
Wizard 7.18
Favored Soul 7.14
Warlock 7.13
Cleric 7.12
Spirit Shaman 7.04
Sorceror 6.88
Shugenja 6.80
Rogue 6.56
Psychic Warrior 6.42
Wu Jen 6.20
Warmage 6.19
Wilder 5.81
Scout 5.74
Monk 5.74
Barbarian 5.70
Bard 5.48
Ninja 5.36
Spellthief 5.34
Ranger 5.30
Paladin 5.10
Swashbuckler 5.03
Hexblade 4.81
Marshal 4.24
Fighter 4.18
Soulknife 3.76
Samurai 3.14
Healer 2.39
I have to through this out there, but what was WotC thinking with the Healer class? I’ll admit, I don't have whatever book it's in, and I dont know all the details of the class, but it seems geared more toward your Final Fantasy-style RPGing, or Strategy/RPG games, not tabletop D&D. Really, while its tactically sound to have someone devoted to healing, who ever wants to play a character like that?
I compiled a rather interesting table based of the scores presented, but I cant figure out how to post a table. Anyway, I figured out what the 'best' classes are by multiplying their 'power' score by their 'fun' score and square rooting (I thought it a little more 'scientific' than just averaging), and here's the list:
I have to through this out there, but what was WotC thinking with the Healer class? I’ll admit, I don't have whatever book it's in, and I dont know all the details of the class, but it seems geared more toward your Final Fantasy-style RPGing, or Strategy/RPG games, not tabletop D&D. Really, while its tactically sound to have someone devoted to healing, who ever wants to play a character like that?
Fascinating, and thanks for doing the math!
I have played a Healer (Mini Handbook) through 20 levels. He was widely regarded as "MVP" throughout the campaign. But the Healer is a heal-bot supreme, and has almost zilch offensive powers. If your party really appreciates you taking on that role, then it can be rewarding. My group was mature enough to realize I was "throwing myself on the grenade" and made sure to thank me warmly and make sure I got plenty of cool loot.
I imagine all the Tome classes rating high for fun (they're weird and different and, in the long history of D&D, actually feel a little fresh, for instance), and some will definitely rank reasonably for power as well.
But my other 2 were both archers (in fact I'm still playing one now), and boy did I make my DM's wounder where all that damage was coming from. (I do admit one feat was from the Iron Kingdoms setting called Sharp shooter-I get to add Dex mod to damage with bows I have weapon focus with)...and once I got that feet with far shot and rapid shot, I was unstoppable. I played one up to lv 14, and the other is only level 7 (still playing this one).
Also, one of the strongest characters I ever DM'ed was a vampiric fighter (finished out a ECL 20)...he was immune to everything. He went for the giant sword wielding, great cleaving, whirlwinding, blender of doom. I could send hordes after him, he'd be fine. He never had more fun a character and still years later asks me to DM a little more of that character for him.
Anyway...I just had to stand up for the fighter there. I feel they caught a bad rap for no reason what-so-ever.
PS: if you want to play a fighter who can't be caught off guard, take Improved unarmed strike, and Superior unarmed strike (Tome of Battle - p. 33). Just two feats out of your 17, and you'll be fine no matter what happens.
Druid 9/9
Wizard 7/7
Cleric 10/4
Favoured Soul -/-
Spirit Shaman -/-
Warmage -/-
Sorceror 7/9
Warlock -/-
Rogue 6/9
Barbarian 9/7
Monk 6/8
Ranger 7/8
Paladin 8/6
Bard 6/10
Ninja 6/-
Hexblade -/-
Spellthief 5/4
Swashbuckler 5/-
Fighter 7/6
Samurai 6/4
Hmmm more dashes than i thought I'd have...I'll have to play more weird classes I guess (although I plan to play swashbuckler and ninja very soon).
I definitely have to rank Monk as higher in fun, especially if your DM allows you to "relax" the CoC just a tad, provided I roleplay a reason why, of course. And even if he didn't, what could be more fun than running around four times five times faster than the rest of my party, punching various baddies in the face?
It also helps to be in a party of three rogues, all of which are either Chaotic or Evil. As you can imagine, there's a fair amount of squabbling in my party, and occasionally (Once every other session, or so), there is an attempt made on someone's life. Since I'm the only halfway-sane one (And the Wizard/Ranger is useless as far as mediation, he usually just walks away from inter-party conflict), I end up playing the role of "The Enforcer" in the party. It's really quite a blast.
Then again, all that chaos in one place can't be too good for a monk, so I'm thinking around Epic levels I'll let them take me to the dark side, and multiclass as barbarian.
I can't speak from personal experience, but I don't see how playing a Paladin could ever be fun. LG + Strict CoC = boring.
Artificer 9.5/10
Psion 9/9
Duskblade 8/9
Druid 9.8/7
Wizard 9.6/7
Cleric 9.5/7
Ardent 8/8
Lurk 7/9
Monk 6.5/9
Sorcerer 7/8.5
Beguiler 7/8
Binder 8/7
Swashbuckler 6/9
Warlock 7/8
Ranger 6.5/8
Rogue 6.5/8
Bard 5/9
Knight 6/8
Psychic Warrior 7/7
Wu Jen 7/7
Warmage 6/8
Barbarian 6/7
Marshal 5/8
Fighter = 4/8
Truenamer 5/7
Wilder 7/5
Divine Mind 5/5
Favoured Soul 5/5
Healer 2/8
Hexblade 3/7
Shadowcaster 5/5
Shugenja 5/5
Soulknife 3/5
Paladin 5/1
Spirit Shaman 4/2
Samurai 2/1
Scout N/A
Ninja N/A
Spellthief N/A
Dragon Shaman N/A
10/4 Druid - The Druid is way to much work, but can be unreal when used to full potential.
7/7 Sorcerer - Make it what you want to be class. If you're not having fun, it's your own fault.
8/7 Rogue - Another very customizable class. Very powerful in the right circumstances.
5/6 Ninja - Its ok. A limiting class in its scope.
2/2 Swashbuckler - Very limiting class. I don't like it at all. Go play a fighter.
6/6 Bard - Very underestimated and stereotyped. You can do so much with this class.
4/6 Monk - Full of flavor with various weaknesses.
9/9 Wizard - Very powerful and versatile with not quite the workload of a druid.
6/6 Warmage - Fun and full of flavor.
9/9 Cleric - See wizard, add religious vigor.
5/5 Barbarian - Somewhat limiting.
3/4 Hexblade - Not as fun or versatile as it looks.
5/5 Ranger - Somewhat limiting.
7/6 Paladin - A decent assortment of abilities with the rp power of arrogance!
4/4 Samurai - A little too limiting without abilities to match.
6/8 Fighter - See sorcerer.
7/4 Healer - Can be the most valued member of the party, but you have to want to play the role.
6/7 Favored Souls - Full of flavor and neat tricks.
6/6 Scout - Very fun abilities.
6/6 Marshal - Very fun abilities.
6/8 Dragon Shaman - Fun abilities and flavor.
7/5 Knight - See Healer, add kicking butt.
5/5 Ardent - An interesting is later limiting balance,
Here is what I have played so far:
Druid, Wizard,Cleric, Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman (not long enough), Shugenja (nle), Sorc, Warlock (nle), Rogue, Barbarian, Monk, Scout (nle),
Ranger, Paladin, Bard, Hexblade (nle), Marshal, Fighter, Samurai (nle), Healer,
Beguiler, Dragon Shaman, and Dragonfire Adept.
Ratings for these last three:
Beguiler: 6/7 (Power/fun)
Dragon Shaman: 5/7
DFA: 7/7.
However, I just wanted to throw out that my favorite character I ever played was a NINJA. Granted, this was very interesting Campaign. Our DM was awesome, and wanted something different. SO, really high magic was hard to get hold of, with virtually no stat boosting items, but it all worked into the cool story line. So to make up for that, we had high powered characters with big level Mods.
I played a Whisper Gnome (from races of stone :D) half shadow dragon, and it was amazing. His background was great, and the Ninja fit his personality perfectly. however, ninjas in general takes a certain kind of character, which makes RPing tons of fun. He had about 6 different names, which made for hilarious first encounters with all the different party members (who he met individually). I played this guy all the way to level 32, and created a specialty prestige class for him to fit his fighting style. Thats something really cool about the ninjas, the fighting styles could go lots of different ways, so if you take the time to flesh it out, you can wind up with some really awesome stuff. And of course, if you take that route, your combat power obviously goes up, seeing as you've just customized the entire way you want your character to preform in battle.
So yea, great thread guys!
"Don't be afraid to try something new. Remember, an amateur built the ark while many professionals built he titanic."
I would make it so Fighter can freely multiclass without XP penalties. This makes sense as fighters (or warriors [the Unearthed Arcana version]) would constitute the greatest number of members of the vast majority of races. You can't tell me that in a population of elves, Wizards would outnumber warriors.
In my current group (Party of 6), we have three rogues (CE, NE, CN), a sorcerer (NE), a monk (Myself, LE), and a Wizard/Ranger (LE). Judging on class choice alone, I would have to rank rogues a bit higher on the "Fun" scale than what they already are, and they're pretty high already. Even with three rogues in the same party, each manages to roleplay a distinct personality, and specializes in different things, making each of them marginally more useful in certain situations.
I definitely have to rank Monk as higher in fun, especially if your DM allows you to "relax" the CoC just a tad, provided I roleplay a reason why, of course. And even if he didn't, what could be more fun than running around four times five times faster than the rest of my party, punching various baddies in the face?
It also helps to be in a party of three rogues, all of which are either Chaotic or Evil. As you can imagine, there's a fair amount of squabbling in my party, and occasionally (Once every other session, or so), there is an attempt made on someone's life. Since I'm the only halfway-sane one (And the Wizard/Ranger is useless as far as mediation, he usually just walks away from inter-party conflict), I end up playing the role of "The Enforcer" in the party. It's really quite a blast.
Then again, all that chaos in one place can't be too good for a monk, so I'm thinking around Epic levels I'll let them take me to the dark side, and multiclass as barbarian.
I can't speak from personal experience, but I don't see how playing a Paladin could ever be fun. LG + Strict CoC = boring.
Hehe, it's really ironic you mention that. I glanced at your party composition and thought "Ugh...my god, that had to be the most horrible and stereotypical party EVER". I personally can't bear to play evil characters, and I have to work hard to play chaotic ones. Causing Harm, looting, and being selfish just gets so old, so fast to me. Perhaps a fun one-shot diversion, but I could never do it in a full campaign.
Paladin is perhaps one of my favorite classes, at least with the right DM. I once had a guy who let me play my paladin however I liked, and wouldn't even dream of calling me on an action as long as I could manage a vague justification. I've never played a Paladin under him again. It was too boring, there was never any moral challenges or even any point to alignments under him.
I feel it is kind of interesting how people can get two VASTLY different feels off the strictness of classes. I ADORE codes of conduct, as they present ample roleplaying opportunity, and yet to a lot of people it is a large turn off.
Bard- 6.0
Cleric- 9.3
Druid-10.0
Fighter- 2.1
Monk- 4.3
Paladin-5.0
Ranger-5.6
Rogue-6.5
Sorcerer- 7.5
Wizard-8.6
CLASS Pow Fun
Druid C 9 9
Artificer *C ?
Psion C 10 4
Wizard C 7 7
Cleric 8 8
Warlock 7 7
Favoured Soul 7 9
Spirit Shaman ?
Sorcerer 5 6
Shugenja ?
Rogue 4 8
Psychic Warrior ?
Wu Jen ?
Warmage 7 4
Monk 3 7
Scout 6 5
Barbarian 3 6
Spellthief ?
Bard 1 6
Ninja ?
Wilder 2 6
Ranger 6 5
Swashbuckler 6 7
Paladin 7 8
Hexblade 6 9
Marshal ?
Fighter 4 1
Soulknife ?
Samurai ?
Healer ?
Some quick comments (i'm talking about monoclassing - multiclassing is not an issue in such a poll i feel) :
* fighter : i'm talking about a melee character from a non broken race (don't talk me about half ogre, goliath or archer). Only interest is in multiclassing after 2 or 4 levels.
* bard : nearly useless in a fight, but does all the social interaction... bad for team play.
* psion : go nova too powerful, and after a few fights player wants to go home, being out of fuel for the coming encounters... (really happened !).
* rogue : too efficient when sneaking but too low saves making him fall when targeted after a good strike. Nice outside of a fight. Only interest is in multiclassing for a few levels.
* paladin / cleric / favored soul : having a deity generaly makes it easier to begin shaping the character, its background, its roleplay.
Nice thread !
Wizard 7
Cleric 5(clerics are cheap, but their healing abilities are awesome)
Artificer 6
Psion 10
Wu Jen 4
Psychic Warrior 9.5
Favoured Soul 6.5
Spirit Shaman 7
Shugenja 6.5
Warmage 7
Sorc 8
Warlock 8
Rogue 6
Barbarian 10
Wilder 6
Monk 10(at epic levels)
Scout 8
Ranger 9, against their favored enemies, 7 otherwise
Paladin 7
Bard 4
Ninja 6
Hexblade 4
Marshal 4
Spellthief
Swashbuckler 5
Fighter 8.5
Samurai 8
Soulknife 7
Healer 7
I am a melee guy so I had to give the melee characters the better score. though I did play as a druid for my first chacater, it was half bad, though I always forgot to prepare right type of spells(healing).
Why is the Spirit Shaman so low on the power scale? I will concede that it is weaker over all then the Druid and Cleric, but by pure spellcasting, Spirit Shaman is the most powerful class. It has ALL the advantages of Preparation and Spontaneous casting and none of the weaknesses. All in all, there raw spellcating ability is flat out the best.
Well, that is unless you take into account that the Spirit Shaman only retrieves 1 spell of their highest level, giving them less flexibility than a druid memorizing only one spell in all his/her highest slots (since s/he can also use those slots to cast summom natures ally).
This is much like the Sorcerer, but unlike the Sorcerer, this also applies to your lower level spells. In fact, at most levels, the Spirit Shaman will have a total of 4 unique spells of his/her 3 highest levels (which are generally the ones that count). And you can never gain more than 3 unique spells pr. level, which can become even less if you want to use metamagic feats.
As a Spirit Shaman, you can easily end up wishing for more spells 'known' (retrieved) instead of the ability to switch them on a daily basis, to help you deal with encounters requiring more unique spells, or wish to have vancian casting to memorize those spells that are only useful 1-2 times a day (which you often can't afford with the lowe number of spells retrieved).
Of course, it largely depends on your DM, skills, campaign, and personal preference, but I will say that the Spirit Shaman can as easily (if not more) give you the worst of both worlds, instead of the best, due the extremely low number of unique spells pr. day.
Btw. Good job danielinthewolvesden, I hope to give my opinions as soon as I have them all figured out
My second-favorite is the Wizard. A 9. Lots of options on where to go and getting creative with the spells is a blasty-blast.