The evil PC in a good group

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

zombiegleemax

Apr 30, 2004 14:29:09
Why have I made this guide? The reason is that I strongly belief that in an adult group an evil character works well in a group and can be fun for everyone. The big problem is that many players associate evil with PC killing or leaving a trail of bodies. In reality, especially a LE character, evil PCs are easier in a group then the typical CG rogue that keeps stealing some of the belongings of the fellow party members. This guide is a way to let it work and let everyone have his or her fun.

To the GM
You probably think I'm going to say you should freely allow player to come up with evil PCs they like. Wrong!, having a player playing an evil PCs in good groups in your campaign is not for every player, every group and every campaign.

Alignment. This is not meant for this topic alone, more GMs should talk about it before starting a campaign. If you search this board for alignment, you'll notice that for every twelve posters there are thirteen opinions on how a given alignment should and shouldn't act, think and breath. That is because the PHB rules are left vague so they aren't a straightjacket. The BoVD and BoED make matters worse, often contradicting the PHB and each other. That's where you come in. Talk with your players about what alignment (not) means, does and governs. Make sure to reach at least a general understanding.

The player. The first question you should ask yourself is "will this guy's evil PC make the campaign more fun and is this guy really not only out for an ego trip". If you are certain of this, the next question awaits: "Will this guy play a well develop evil PC that is not a cardboard cutout and has enough brains to survive getting to first level". In case of another yes, here is the third question: "Playing an evil PC means rivalry with the GM and fellow good PCs, is the player a good sport in accepting setbacks or even defeat". If you answered "no" on any of these questions say "no" to the player.

The group. As said above, an evil PC is a rival and a colleague to the fellow PC. The rival part can become tricky. It may become a competition to catch the evil PC. Competition brings out the worst in some players, which will have their PCs acting out of character or using meta-game knowledge to catch the evil PC. If you belief this may become the case, say no. A pity you need to punish the player for the bad role-playing of another, but life isn't fair. You’ll be the one to pick up the pieces when things escalate. If the players do enjoy a skillful played evil PC, even or especially, if it manages to mislead the (N)PCs, even if it is theirs, you hit the jackpot.

The campaign. Some campaigns revolve around finding loot, items and money in the name of goodness. That provides an easy hook for evil PCs to tag along. A campaign that resolves about selflessly accomplishing good deeds with "any good deed is its own reward-financing", that may become far more troublesome. In such a case, see if you and the player can come up with a good motivation for the PC. If you can't, don't put him in.

No!!! If you feel doubt by letting the evil PC in your campaign, say that word. Stick with it. Don’t fall for whining, a whiner proves your decision to say "no". If your "no" is unacceptable now, how will the player feel when an NPC, or another player rightfully finds him out and takes the PC to justice. I bet he'll whine about how unfair that is. And forget the "you stifle my creativity" accusation. A player that can't make an interesting non-evil PC has no creativity to stifle. Stop it before it ruins your campaign.

Hang them high D&D is about challenging your players. This usually is done with dungeons. Players that use their brains on the dungeon’s challenges are rewarded. Players that do dumb things, pay the bill for them. For evil PCs the whole world is such a dungeon. In this guide, I will talk often about how every dumb deed an evil PC does, gives the GM a piece of rope to make a noose. Your job is to make a noose. On these boards, I often see GMs that let evil PCs kill in broad daylight, offend kings and gods, burn down cities and not eating their vegetables, without anyone even trying to stop them. These GMs are actually surprised that the evil PCs act evil so indiscreetly. Therefore, build some paladin orders, good temples and other evil-fighting oragnisations. Also design some nasty, overpowered or even legendary NPCs for these organisations. The evil PC will not be at much danger from them at first, but when he gets overconfident, they'll develop an interest in him. Killing the agents of good that hunt him, will alleviate the problem for only so long. He'll move up the priority list and more and stronger agents will be assigned to catch him.

A special remark about places that sell magic items. Ever thought why those places sell the items at twice the price they buy them? That is because they hire powerful muscle and magic to protect their business. If any goon with a few ranks of sleight of hand or a weapon can walk just out with tons of stolen magic goodies, they would be out of business pretty soon. Don't forget cursed items, if a goon puts a sword under your throat and wants a magic item, you just give it to him . In D&D there should be no free lunch. Writing an E on a sheet shouldn't change that. It only raises the stakes.

The evil alignment
People have strange ideas about the evil alignment. First the E in your alignment does not make you a compulsive killer, since such a character doesn't have any choice, he's like the killing tiger: neutral. Sure you will kill if it's advantage to you, but leaving a trail of bodies is not advantageous. Being evil doesn't always mean that you kill for the sake of killing. Killing for profit, love, loyalty, society and so on make you being considered evil in the real world. Why shouldn't that make you evil in D&D. Lastly evil characters can feel love or friendship. Real life bad guys had families, and were often fine parents. Does that mean they didn't love their children or weren't evil? Sometimes evil character can even develop a humane streak, that's when they really become scary.

Not in my campaign, you won't
I encourage everyone that thinks of writing the E on the sheet to talk with the GM. You should hammer out a basic understanding what that E means. Before developing such an evil character, ask the GM. If the GM has an attitude of "not in my campaign you don't", drop it. Sure, you may disagree with his decision, but it's his campaign. Remember the GM is the referee. In D&D, like sport, it is often more important a decision is made then the debate whether that decision is 100% right. Respect the GM and his authority. If that isn't enough ground to give the GM a break, read some threads on the board about pathetic excuses for realistic evil character, and the campaigns they wreck. Then you should get a bit of understanding in the reluctance of your GM.

If the group allows you to have fun the evil way, you should also let them have fun. Your GM and group allows you to play the evil character, don't let them regret it. GMs take a lot of trouble to prepare a meal of good plots, it shouldn't become a food fight. PCs trying to kill other PCs, in which the vanquished make new evil PCs, that for some meta-game reason, turns on the PC that killed the old character. That is what turned many GMs and players off.

The realistic evil character
Face it, being evil in D&D, in a non-evil society is difficult. While good character’s only face dangers in dungeons, your enemies are everywhere. Guards, good clerics, paladins and many others will be after your hide. Some evil characters I read about on these boards shouldn't have made it to level one. If your evil stupidity is an option you can't afford. Any GM worth his DMG will tighten the noose around your neck further if you make a mistake. And the worst part is you chose for that when you wrote the E on your sheet. In short as an evil PC you have several recourses. Use them wisely.

Blood. Blood is precious. It sticks to your hands. Dead people can have powerful allies. Paladins will seek out murderers. Clerics make sure dead men do tell tales. In short if you leave a trail of bodies, people will follow it, kill only when it's really worth it. The blood of do-gooders is even worse, if you kill one, their organization often more and better ones to investigate his death.
Your nest. If you killed someone, people will seek a culprit. If you are nearby, people will check you out. Since your party is the people closest people, they are your nest. If you have to spill blood, don't make messy stains in it. Having one or more party wipeouts, in which you miraculously got away with all valuables, will raise eyebrows. On the other hand, when your party's paladin claims you're a wonderful person and it’s unspeakable that they even consider you weren't innocent, you know cooperation is a good thing. It may happen your party gets hired to solve a murder you did. In that case bring out the good framing skills, show them you're worth the E on your sheet.

Innocence In short, make sure people don't put you on the suspect list. Make sure that when people vanish, you are nowhere near. If you are a famous hero, or in a party of them, you are less likely to get in the picture as potential suspect. You should even consider doing lesser good to hide your evil. The forces of good are like a sleeping dragon. When you come it takes a brief look and if it judges you're not after its hoard, it will go back to sleep. The more noise you make, the more alert it will become. You should either avoid making loud noise or make sure someone else looks like the thread to the hoard, stand clear of the breath weapon! When you lay low for a period, it will usually go back to sleep.

Distance When you do something nasty, the forces of good will generally build a group of suspects. The longer you stay, the smaller that protective circle gets. Moving around can be a blessing or a bane. Since you can be away before the group gets to thin it's a blessing. The bane is that smart people may notice that the evil deeds come when you do and vanish when you do. Synchronizing your evil deeds with the coming and going of others can help this. It really helps when the murders started when a group arrived a week after yours and ended when they left.

Tools of evil
Bluff skill This skill is as important as your ability to breath. At some time you will need to mislead those nasty evilfighters to a more appropriate target.
Magic If you’re a spellcaster, magic is both your best friend and enemy. If you're not a spellcaster, it is your worst enemy. The stench of evil will stick to you, ready for a detect evil spell to be sniffed out. An evil non-spellcaster’s first magic item should be a ring of mind-shielding, I don’t need to explain why. You got inherited it from an aunt and auntie Agatha would roll over in her grave if you took her heirloom of. The skill knowledge arcane is also a must have, even cross-class, to know the weapons of your enemies. Just cutting out the tong of your deadly victim make sure that pesky speak with dead spell won't let your victim point his finger at you from beyond the grave. On the same principle you will want to know how invisibility works so do-gooders won’t shadow you. If you’re a spell caster yourself, you posses the evildoers-masterwork-tools. Just read the PHB and look at your spell list, there is some really great stuff out there. Just use modify memory to convince some guy he did your crime and use misdirection to give him what attracts paladin’s to you. One simple hint and justice will be served, but not at your table. Just don’t get overconfident, there are always better spell casters around. Overconfidence is a luxury you cannot afford.
Your brain use it, always! To find you, your enemies are depending on the clues you leave them. Well thought out actions leave unclear clues or clues that send them on a wild goose chase. Actions that aren’t well thought out are their goldmine for your enemies.


The chaotic evil, neutral evil and lawful alignment
There are huge differences between chaotic evil, neutral evil and lawful evil. Let me point them out. The PHB is used as main source here.

Chaotic evil This is a problem alignment in groups. But this is not because of the evil part, the chaotic part is the real culprit. Just look at the negative sides for chaotic: recklessness, resentment towards legitimate authority, arbitrary actions and irresponsibility. In short the C character does not make a reliable party member. The keywords of chaotic are freedom, adaptability and flexibility. In CE, these mean an almost amoral character. Hardly any ethics govern the CE character, the rights of other individuals are there to be violated. This makes CE the hardest alignment to fit in. Why does a character that yearns so much, join a good group that actively fights for the rights the CE character wishes to violate? Therefore it is important to cooperate with the GM to find a reason why. A huge financial reward does only do so much, the character tends to get fed up with the group and decides it isn’t worth it. The best reason I ever saw was the need to cooperate to stop the BBEG from destroying the world, being dead is not an improvement of freedom for a CE character.

Neutral evil The PHB dictates evil as "hurting and oppressing others". Why is such a character evil is the first question. Perhaps the character simply lacks compassion or sees it as weakness. Perhaps it’s willing to break a few eggs for the omelet. The NE character has no hatred against working in parties, but also no special love for it. Once again you should build your character with a reason why he does join a party that takes half measures against orcs or goes out of its way to save a couple of little kids that should have listened to their mommies. A good reason is needed, but it doesn’t need to be as railroaded as the CE's reason.

Lawful evil Lawful’s keywords are trustworthiness, honor, obedience to authority and reliability. How can you combine this with evil? Start with getting the negative keywords: close mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness and lack of adaptability. Close mindedness and judgementalness make for an easy one, the only good orc is a dead orc. Obedience is quickly warped to henchmenism, or better yet: henchcritterism ;) . What about trustworthiness honor and reliability? Those are the words that make the LE character into a great team player. LE characters love company and therefore like parties. They will fit in, even if it means putting their evil ways on holt to better serve the party. On the other hand, they may see their job to do the parties dirty work. If that pesky orc prisoner refuses to tell where the hostages are, it is just a matter of staying behind to guard him. A few moments with your special skills and when the party comes back, you 'had' to kill the fleeing prisoner. But luckily the direction he ran gave you an insight where the hostages might be hidden.

[b]The Evil Character[/b]
I should emphasize the word character. Some player belief that writing an E is enough to be a character.

What is your evil The evil alignment covers a large array of bad deeds. Not all deeds are for all evil characters. An assassin may ruthlessly takes life but doesn't exploit people. Someone who owns a mine, where the workers work in dangerous condition because profit is more important then safety, may be horrified by the thought of actively taking a life. This while ignoring the frequent accidents. Yes, you don't have to be consistent. Also think of circumstances. Someone, who hates orcs, may brutally butcher orc babies but become furious when a human baby suffers any harm. In short, think about the evils your character will and won’t commit and the circumstances.

Why does your character do evil? The worst evil characters I encounter is the one that tortures whenever he can and if you ask why then the answer is because my character is evil. If you're going to make a psychopath, then play a realistic one. Delve into the psyche of your character and work out why he really gets his kicks from torture. Sure, there are in D&D evildoers, such as blackguards that do evil for the sake of evil, but even in this case the question why become a blackguard comes up. In truth, every reason real world people do nasty things, works in D&D. Love, hate, greed, racism, envy, they all work as good as excuses in D&D as they do in the real world. A motivation that works great for LE characters is idealism. The end justifies the means is a great LE slogan, once the orc is extinct and humans are safe, they'll be thankful. Lastly do not forget the dark gods. Characters may serve them out of fear, perverse admiration or the hope for rewards. The service will usually mean doing dark deeds. In short, make sure your character does evil for a reason.

How did your character become evil? Unless you took an 'always evil' race, your character started as a blank sheet. Was your upbringing evil, if not how did you enter the dark path and why. Did it go by slow corruption or was it a plunge. How did you adopt to your new life and your new ethics and how did you part with the old ones.
How justifies your character his/her dark deeds? It is pretty normal to receive an education which tells you hurting others is bad. How does your circumvent that very basic education, or does the character end up guild wrecked. The latter may be pretty dangerous since it can lead to a wish to be caught. The easiest way is to never have had the education. A half orc brought up by evil orcs, has never been taught the concept pity. CE characters may see their conscience as a barrier that limits freedom and should be broken. Few people see themselves as evil so people tend to make up lies to fool themselves. The owners of the mine may fool themselves into thinking that the cutbacks on safety are the only way to keep the mine running and the prevention of poverty in the town. LE tends to use the chain of command as an excuse. If a boss tells a henchman to kill someone, the boss goes free because he didn't kill anyone and the henchman goes free because he is just carrying out orders. Another LE option is the concept of duty, if the price of an orc-free society is a dirty conscience then it’s my honor and duty to live with that conscience. Once again make the dark gods for good options. If you must kill someone or face Hextor’s wrath, then you clearly are a victim and not a killer. Even if you didn't even try to run to a Pelor temple. In short, work that little nagging voice in your character’s mind out.

How do you avoid the servants of good? Most bad cliché characters should have never made it to first level. If you didn’t cover your tracks well, you will get caught. Think of the ways your character prevents himself from getting caught. The owners of the mine put pressure on their personal by stating that word of the bad conditions will lead to the closure of the mine and unemployment. Think of clever ways your character fought the law and won the first battles.

Why work in a group? I handled at in the alignment section but it also should be addressed here.

Any redeeming features? this section is optional, but recommended. I always find that characters that are totally evil have a cardboard feeling. Therefore give your character some merits. As stated above, few characters see themselves as evil. Therefore it is likely your character may hate some forms of evil and try to stop them. Some villains excel at being gentlemen who keep their word, even LE blackguards may have this feature. Give your character a weakness for little children or the elderly. Not only does such a feature provide you with common ground with a party, it is very hilarious if your character, how about your evildoing PC getting declared a hero because he rescues some kids.

[i]When it goes wrong [/i]
So you took every precaution and used your wits. Even then there is a chance your groups find out. Ones happen and so do twenties on sense motive tests or someone in your party stumbles upon your schemes. In that case you have three options. The first is to try to fix things. In that case you have a tough job ahead, do it only when you are almost sure you can. The second one is killing the party in their sleep. There are major drawbacks to that. Character wise it is hard to justify. Reliability is a lawful trait, so LE is unlikely to do this. CE is far more likely to do that, but even in that case, you and the party spend lots of good time together. Killing friends is not easy and it ads more blood to your hands. Since you probably have been careless with leaving the clues your party stumbled on, the last thing you may want is to leave some more. Then there is the out of game issue, it is no fun to get your character murdered in its sleep. It is even far less fun for the GM that sees his campaign come to a sudden halt. The third option is the best: leave the group. Say to the GM that your character became unplayable and sneaks out. Your fellow players and GM will be glad you didn't reset the campaign. Write retired on the sheet or give it to the GM as future BBEG. It may be hard to leave such a character, that you have gotten attached to, but it is a price you pay for playing an evil PC in a good group. Take a fresh sheet and build a new character, all good evil things end too early.

[i]Endword[/i]
Every real life person has a dark side to his personality. Sigmund Freud wrote that a sadist should become a surgeon. That way he can cut people and help them instead of harming them. The sad truth is that not everyone is cut out to be a surgeon. Luckily we have D&D. Here we can play out that dark side without hurting anyone. If you can play your evil character in such a way that your fellow gamers enjoy it, you just successfully used your dark side to become an entertainer. Therefore when playing an evil PC, scheme, hurt, kill and enjoy it with your group. Remember it's only a game, enjoy it!
#2

zombiegleemax

May 05, 2004 2:25:45
Brilliant! at last I can play that NE bard realisticly.
#3

lincoln_hills

May 05, 2004 10:37:08
...it is very hilarious if your character, how about your evildoing PC getting declared a hero because he rescues some kids.

NARRATOR: And so, the DAY is SAVED, thanks to... Mojo Jojo?
MOJO: No. I did not save the day.
NARRATOR: But you DID.
MOJO: No.
NARRATOR: But -
MOJO: SILENCE!

Henchcritter's little essay is just about the best advice I've read for the portrayal of an evil character in a non-evil group. I only have two small comments to add:

1) Remember that you are only one of the players. There'll be a temptation to let your machinations, your cut-scenes and your special business take up an unfair amount of campaign time: do your best to resist this temptation. Let the others have their fair share of time and they'll be more tolerant of your "focus hogging".

2) Play your villain with PANACHE. Whether this means a swashbuckler, a James Bond villain, or a caster with a knack for ironic spellcasting (bestow curse and polymorph other can be the source of entertaining evil), you want your character to be so charismatic and engaging that the other players don't want to see his exploits end. (Low Charisma, by the way, is something only Good characters can REALLY afford, because sooner or later their deeds bear witness to their true worth: whereas when YOUR d. bear w. to your t.w., you'll NEED a high Charisma just to avoid being lynched!)
#4

hesparex

May 19, 2004 16:30:25
The problem with playing an Evil character is that the character is evil. The alignment system as it stands within the game isn’t about moral relativism. An evil character would be open season to the more militant good powers. The paladin as soon as the evil is detected would deal with the situation. Would a good cleric's deity allow for the raising of a dead evil character with no ramifications? Every time a good character aids an evil character they are aiding Evil. While I agree that I would trust a LE more than a CG in some circumstances it would actually depend on the situation. A CG starts out with little respect for the law while a LE twists the law to his /her own ends. When the chips were down in a party I would trust the CG with my chars life before I would trust the LE. Evil is Evil and in the end the first goal of Evil is its own advancement if it progresses those goals by betraying the group... well it is evil after all and the party that allows evil to exist amongst them is doing so at their own risk.
#5

zombiegleemax

May 28, 2004 13:14:37
As you said, good actively hunts evil. Therefore anyone who's too conspicuous about his evil way will be hunted. Therefore evil won't show its face and will adopt a facade of neutralness or even goodness.

If an evil person does join your group and has done his homework, how will you find out? Unless you have an initiation ritual where you strip search each potential member to prevent him from carrying some alignment-concealing item, you're not going to. With such an initiation ritual you won't get any evil members in your party, or any non-evil ones.

D&D gods grant most spells, they don't execute them. A god doesn't have any control on how you use them. Sure, if you do something your god really hates, he may not grant you the next batch. The only exceptions are spells like miracle but those aren't used that often.

LE characters are trustworthy CG can be reckless. You may wake up to see the CG character firmly asleep during his guard shift. Expect an answer like "what are you nagging about, we're a long way from that orc village". When you remind everyone agreed on the guard schedule, an answer like "I just said yes to end your nagging, I find my night's rest more important then your paranoia and since I'm well rested, alive and breathing I was right".
#6

zombiegleemax

May 30, 2004 18:13:50
I feel that I must bring up the point that most players will not know how to play an evil character, whether in game or meta-game.

I believe that greater emphasis should be put on the fact that evil characters often make it less fun for other players as well. When all the attention is put on what the evil character is doing to be evil, that draws attention away from the other non-evil players.

Besides, its kind of unrealistic of an evil character to save the children. The fact is that evil should be evil. They should do things that make other people want to hate them. Otherwise, it might be safer just to play a neutral character with a bad-streak.
#7

zombiegleemax

Jun 04, 2004 8:04:19
If you don't mind, I'd like to cut and paste that and make players read that before they try and coerce me to play an evil character in my campaigns (there's always one person that wants to put an E on the sheet...).

I would also toss out there as something to be considered when it comes to evil characters, is the fact that even evil characters are not necessarily going to like other evil characters. An evil character cannot operate (or should not be allowed to operate IMO) with impunity even when they are adventuring within an evil society. In other words, let’s say we have an evil society, and there is an evil character perpetrating "crimes" within that society. Now of course, since its an evil society, and most often might makes right in such a society, evil things can and will happen frequently, and many or most of the inhabitants of such a society would view murder, theft, or whatever as legitimate means of advancing one's own agenda. But usually these methods will be employed in such a way so that they are not caught doing them to avoid possible retaliation from relatives or allies of those who they are committing such acts against, or to hide their political or social maneuverings from their rivals.

This means that an evil character cannot operate with impunity in such a society, because the other evil beings in that society also have their own selfish agendas. They may well come to see a character that is committing murder, theft, ****, pillage, etc., as a threat or rival to their own power, to the order or purpose of the evil society as a whole, or as a possible source for trouble for their own careers or financial status.

They might be jealous of the character's reputation as a hard case, or want to keep the character from building up a new thief or assassin guild in town to rival their own crime organization. Members of an evil cult or religion might view a character who worships their god as a potential rival for the attention of their god, and seek to eliminate the character not only to prevent the character from gaining favor with their god but also as a means for them to prove they were stronger and gain favor themselves in the eyes of their god. Evil magic users might covet the weapons or magic items that the character possesses and seek to take the magic items from the character. Evil lords or knights may view an evil character as a political rival, or perhaps simply want to test themselves in combat against the character as a means to prove who is tougher and thus who should be subservient to whom.

While members of an evil society might well view murder, assassination, theft, spying, etc. as legitimate means of moving up the social or political power ladder, they will generally use such means as discretely as possible to avoid tipping their hands to their rivals. Thus, if a PC evil character is doing things that are blatantly obvious, whatever serves as law within an evil society may well view such a character as dangerous because they have broken the unwritten rule of the society, i.e., Don't Get Caught!

So essentially, it would seem to me that evil characters don't just have the "goody-goodies" within the campaign to fear and/or avoid, but also the other evil NPC's and monsters that are roaming around may well dislike the character for their own evil reasons....
#8

wolfhawk

Jun 08, 2004 22:40:39
One major factor in deciding whether to allow an evil player in a group is to decide whether you will allow the players to play out the character in character and take whatever consequences are natural for that situation. Sometimes, this will even mean the death of the party.

As an example, in one campaign I played, the GM at character creation encouraged us to play anything, good or evil. I decided to play a highly intelligent chaotic evil cleric since I had never played an evil character before. Throughout the low level, I made sure I obeyed the laws of the area and behaved in a "civilized manner". I also stayed out of the way of the Paladin's detect evil. I few things happened (like stealing) when there were absolutely no witnesses, but I kept the stuff very minor so no one would suspect. Eventually, I gained the spell undetectable alignment , which listed me as good the one time anyone cast know alignment. This convinced the remaining party that I was good, and they never questioned it again. Finally, after many years, the great adventuring party rescued an extra-planar creature (the first member of a new race that the GM wanted to bring into the world). We defeated a blue dragon to escape, leaving the party virtually crippled. There was less than 10 HP spread across the 5 characters and rescued NPC total. Further, the party had previously and publicly agreed to a contract with a survivor benefits clause that gave the survivors all of the equipment of any dead PC's. My evil cleric had made it through the battle untouched and with most of his spells unused. The logical, in character, thing to do at this point was to finish off the party and take my newfound dragon hoard to add to the treasure. I therefore cast flame strike as the party waited for me to heal them (choosing not to make any save against their known healer). The GM decided that suddenly, none of my spells or magic items worked anymore. I then tried to surprise club the Paladin (who had 4 of the remaining hit points) and was told that a divine aura destroyed my weapon and magically held me while the party escaped.

The players, after finding out all of what I had done, and how I had fooled them, agreed that their characters should have had complete trust in me, and that even if the good Deities wanted to help their characters, my character's evil deity should have been able to counter that by interfering as well. The game soon dissolved due to a lack of free will for characters.

The GM and group must be able to deal with the idea that evil may sometimes prevail , at least for a little while. If the answer is no, don't allow evil characters.
#9

votan

Jun 14, 2004 22:35:24
Originally posted by wolfhawk
One major factor in deciding whether to allow an evil player in a group is to decide whether you will allow the players to play out the character in character and take whatever consequences are natural for that situation. Sometimes, this will even mean the death of the party.

A good example of a cleverly played evil character and a reminder that evil does not equal stupid. I am surprised that the players never did figure it out as sooner or later there would be hints. But to act the way that you did makes perfect sense for a chaotic evil looking for the main chance.
#10

zombiegleemax

Jun 22, 2004 12:37:40
wolfhawk that is probably one of the worst cases of deus ex machina I've seen on the boards. He should have declared the campaign at an end and set up your cleric as the BBEG for the next campaign.
#11

mindcrusher

Jun 23, 2004 10:37:53
That’s exactly why I find playing evil characters so much more rewarding because you have to "THINK" more than you do when you play good characters, I DM kinda played the way Henchcritter explain but he definitely favored good characters, So I had to play Neutral characters to survive his world because everybody was looking for an excuse to get my character, but I think you have captured the essence of what it is to play an evil character in D&D. GREAT JOB!!!
#12

crandor

Jun 24, 2004 19:39:45
If you're playing an evil character in the kind of worlds described above, either you're a combat beast that's hard to track (unlikely), you're dead (more likely), or you some decent bluff/diplomacy (bingo). Meaning that if you get caught in your Paladin's detect evil, you can act surprised, say someone must have cast shifting alignment on you, and use it as an excuse to invest in a ring of mind-shielding, no questions asked.

Or at least that's my justification for ignoring your comments about good and evil being actual energy types and good hunting evil merely for its perception of the world and whatnot. Alignment is about your choices and motivations, what drives you and why. This drives me to question the classification of a compulsive killer as neutral; a compulsion is a suggestion, and he, theoretically, always has a choice.

However, not all evil characters play the field against itself like that. Some just wouldn't be able to resist, for example, taking a coup de grace on a sleeping guard for his +1 longsword and masterwork dagger, even when there's a possibility of being discovered. Some may even kill just for the fun of it; it's not as outlandish as you may think. Keeping such a character alive would be interesting work, to say the least. If your party is very interested in, say, loyalty, it could even be the source of ongoing campaign experiences. If they aren't, you have a nice PvP for a little while until someone is forced to make a new character.

I would also like to point out that the actual letter you put down for alignment matters very little; it's just a quick-guide for the character you've already designed. If your character doesn't run around killing everyone he sees or plot to manipulate the economy to put competitors out of business, he can still be evil if his motivations for whatever actions or inactions he does take are malevolent.

Finally, while it's true that many players don't know how to play an evil character effectively, they'll never learn unless you let them try. As the DM, I'm pretty sure that you will actually be there while the character is played...I hope that assumption is safe...so you should be able to give...pointers...subtle, such as parading a hundred guards around all over the place to make it clear that your player should be at least a little bit careful if he feels like getting to second level. Alternatively, you could give him out-of-game pointers...actually, go with that one. Talk with him, ask him if his character cares whether guards notice him, etc.
#13

zombiegleemax

Jun 29, 2004 23:30:48
Originally posted by wolfhawk
One major factor in deciding whether to allow an evil player in a group is to decide whether you will allow the players to play out the character in character and take whatever consequences are natural for that situation. Sometimes, this will even mean the death of the party.

Great role-playing on your part. But did you ever stop to think that perhaps your actions would have ruined everyone else's fun in the process? I personally hate being fragged by a fellow party member, and I can't be the only one out there.
#14

k.o.e.g

Jul 01, 2004 17:13:24
If I may add a small bit to this:

Money
If you're going to be evil, the best friend you could ever have is the jangle in your pocket, and, chances are, with that E, you'll have a good deal more than most people, and if you don't, you have no morals, frame a rich noble in a murder, turn him in, collect the reward and live in his former estate with his former gold.

So you have your mounds of money, now what? If you have a problem, throw money at it until it floats away on the stench of cold, hard cash. Many of your government officials can be bought, that Ring of Mind Shielding just went on discount(Or kill the guy and take it, what do you care, Earn that E!), there’s a spellcaster you can hire to modify that particularly steadfast paladin's memory. Strapped for cash? Pay a hobo ten GP to kill a man, then kill him, gather the evidence, and claim your 100GP reward, don't forget to pick the 10 GP off of the hobo, though.

Remember, the more mud there is, the better the boots are going to have to be to keep out of it. Don't write checks you can't cash.
#15

zombiegleemax

Jul 05, 2004 18:14:23
If you are indeed chaotic evil, does this mean that you cannot have friends? Sure, you would kill innocent bystanders if it suited you, but would you kill your allies? The people who made sure that you got away clean of the dragon (as wolfhawk said) and probably saved your skin hundreds of other times?

I think not. You see, unless you are the over the top bad guy, the one who steals children's toys, binds them up, then tortures their parents to death with said toy while the child is watching, you would still know that the people who have kept you alive all that time will continue to do so if you heal and don't kill them. No matter how much money involved, any self respecting evil person will value his own life over anything else.Anything. That is the essence of evil.
#16

slivvy_gaidin

Jul 08, 2004 21:45:05
Then again, Henchcritter did just point out that not all evil characters get their kicks by slaughtering townfuls of innocent people, or by burining down childcare centres. Most evil people in real life are evil only in some aspects, like the stingy and cost-cutting mine owner who would never consider actively taking someone's life. Besides, if evil is evil is evil, then would not a neutral character with a bad streak also be mechanically labeled as evil?

Henchcritter, this is a godsend. I'm DMing a game right now with a party half filled with evil characters. So far we haven't had any annoying incedences of "Chaotic Stupid", or any such similar alignments, but I think that it partly comes from the fact that I've got them all in a dungeon (they started there with no equipment), and they need each other to get out. I'm worried about what will happen when they do escape the dungeon- both hoping that they don't just randomly start killing each other, but also hoping that they will take the time to flesh out their characters, and make them unique in their personality and evilness.
I gave them a short talk on evil, but you have explained it in so much more detail than I considered.
I am going to print your post out and force them to read it.
#17

zombiegleemax

Jul 18, 2004 14:53:45
This is very good, I can relate very well. I DM for a group that includes: LG Dwarf Paladin, CG Human Fighter, CN Human Rogue, and a LE Half-Elf Sorceress.

The Dwarf and the Human come in much conflict with the Sorceress. The only thing that keeps the group together is the fact that the Sorceress is LE. She views her comrades as family and treats them so.

It's a very tough situation...
#18

arquinsiel

Aug 09, 2004 10:10:39
Good job henchcritter, it's pretty much how I saw things but with some nice clarifications and a few points I hadn't considered.
#19

zombiegleemax

Aug 13, 2004 19:37:33
Why evil characters want to join good parties...

...they won't get stabbed in the back in the middle of the night by a good party member.

...they have the perfect cover for any nefarious activities, and may even get put in charge of investigating their own activities.

...they will be trusted as long as they stay hidden, and sentimentality will probably allow them to go free if they are exposed.

Excellent primer on evil characters, good for DMs to look at as well. I should come up with a good redeeming features for some of our BBEGs. I wouldn't mind playing a variation on our evil bard villain as a PC is some other campaign.
#20

zombiegleemax

Sep 01, 2004 23:53:09
I had a campaign that included a NE Druid and a LG Paladin. Not only did they have a conflict in Good and Evil, but the law of man and the law of nature.

One situation had the party help out in repairing the walls of a small village but they were using wooden barricades and the druid refused and began to hinder the villagers and the rest of the party but casting entangle and a few other spells. She eventually turned to death threats because she saw there lack of respect for nature to unnerving. The mayor of village decided to call a meeting to solve the wall problem without offending the Druid.

Meanwhile a small group of villagers were not interested in stopping the building of the wall and continued felling trees. The druid slew the adults and hung a boy by his feet from a tall tree as a stern act to prove she was serious. The town found the boy half dead and decided to continue chopping trees and attack the druid if she was seen again. The druid ran into the village and cast repel stone and metal and destroyed most of the village. The paladin fought the druid nearly to death and the druid fell to her knees and begged for forgiveness. The druid could not stand the destruction of nature and the paladin could not tolerate the destruction of civilization.

Man vs Nature is just as big as Good vs Evil The campaign ended with both characters forfeiting their sheets.
#21

okaynowa

Sep 03, 2004 6:34:06
An outstanding and well-argued essay, Henchcritter.

It puts me to thinking how a party could interact with evil-aligned characters in some manner other than "smite first, ask questions never."

The CE character would probably be pretty fun to know, at first-- uninhibited, outgoing, game to try everything... in short, a great party animal. After a couple adventures, however, you start to see their other side: the wild mood swings, the rage, the irresponsibility, the selfishness. The CE character is good to meet, bad to know.

A NE character might fit the mold of the quiet type-- you know, the one they never suspect. They assist when asked, but never volunteer. They know the rule of law, but would never vote or judge. They work quietly, steadily, avoiding notice and ruthlessly silencing anyone who penetrates their veil. The NE character is hard to meet, and hard to know.

The LE character might seem at first to be petty, stubborn, and snobbish. They seem to delight in enforcing the rules-- mostly for their own benefit, but often just for the fun of putting others in their place. However, their investment in The System means they're bound to abide by it (as long as anyone is looking). Beyond their tyranny, the LE character can also prove rational, honest (to a point), and willing to keep their word. You wouldn't want one as a neighbor, but you'd definitely want one defending you in court (assuming you can afford the fees for their services). The LE character is unpleasant to meet, but useful to know.
#22

zombiegleemax

Sep 20, 2004 10:52:20
Why evil characters want to join good parties...

...they won't get stabbed in the back in the middle of the night by a good party member.

One of the clichés I would counter far more powerful if I had to rewrite my original piece again, is the cliché that evil means killing your buddies at night for their goods.

First, when people play D&D they often forget what they role-play. When people think about their party, they often think about the GM, who isn't that good but he's the only one around. The player who plays the bard is a fool, the cleric's player preaches more out of character then in and the fighter's player is Mr. know-it-all. People often mix their character's view of the character's fellow party members, with their views of their fellow players.

But how do character think about it. Think about this. If it wasn't for that cleric, your wounds wouldn't be healed and those undead would stand a better chance. Without the sorcerer's fireball the horde of little monsters would quickly overrun you. The fighter's can stand in front of monsters that can quickly knock you down. The barb is ferocious in close combat fighting like nobody else. The rogue's quick rapier can wipe out monsters with uncanny precision before those monster can inflict their punishment on you, and he's is all that stands between you and those pesky traps. When there is a problem, that wizard tends to get a solution out of his weird book. In short, your character knows he's dependant on the party to cover his back. Since you don't go into dangerous situations with a reliable and capable people to cover your back, and you keep going back into them with the same bunch of people, you must simply trust your party members. Of there was any doubt about their loyalty or competence, or they have any about yours, you get an ineffective party that breaks up. Even more far-reaching is the fact that your character will owe it's life to some of it's fellow party members as do some of the members to your character. Those depts and the mutual trusts should create a band that only the most chaotic (yes, chaotic, not necessarily evil)characters break.

Secondly being trustworthy is on the law-chaos axis, not the good-evil-axis. Nothing in the PHB alignment description prevents a CG character from stealing from or deceiving the party as long as nobody gets hurt or oppressed. Sure, stealing the last crumb of bread from a starving man is evil but nobody in the party will starve if you keep the valuable gem for yourself. A LE character is however bound by honor and trustworthiness. Stealing from party members is not something a LE is inclined to, let alone kill them. The whole do something against the party thing is chaotic and not a hallmark of evil.

Then what if you killed the party and looted the bodies. Especially if the party is high level it brings on many problems. A paladin has an order which (s)he is important to. A cleric has a church, a bard is in close contact with other bards. A barbarian has a tribe, a monk a school, a wizard a college, or rogue has a thief’s guild. In short, you get a lot of organizations that become potential enemies. And since you have been seen with the characters, guess where such an origination will start it's routine investigation. They will examine your statement in detail and may have excess to powerful divination magic. Any hole in your story or clue of their demise you carry and the will tighten the investigation. Even worse, the organizations may pool recourses and you may end up with one alliance that wants your head on a silver plate.

And those price items your fellow party menbers carried. The term hot loot springs to mind. If Josh the Merciful's holy avenger resurfaces on a market, his order has a chance to find it. Even worse, his order may offer a nice reward on clues where it is and if fences weren't greedy they wouldn't be involved with fencing loot. Once they find an item, they may start to trace it back to you. Keeping the item is also a bad option. It may make investigators a bit more suspicious. The best thing may be to dig a hole and bury the items but why kill a party for items you can't sell and can't keep?

Lastly, also evil people aren't blind to the value of cooperation. In real life most evil in became dangerous because it cooperated. The term organized crime hints at cooperation. Also in D&D, evil wouldn't be any dangerous if it didn't cooperate. Just throw a bag of platinum pieces, and return to find that the evilguys have killed each other and defeat the weakened survivor to retrieve the pieces.


Sorry to hammer at your post Cathon, with which I mostly agree. But I want "the evil PC always turn on the party cliché" and the "evil can't love cliché", although that last one wasn't in your post, to become extinct. The party member that turns on his party is the domain of chaotic aliment and not of the evil alignment. But foremost it is the domain of players that are interested in a competitive ego trip instead of realistic characters. Sure, characters that kill the group may exist but they should be ultra rare and not a cliché.

You also forget the main reason why evil characters join good parties, the party's goal. A character that hates orcs and want to see all orcs killed in a gruesome way, whether they are armed with axes, chant hymns to Gruumsh and carry the heads of their latest victims or they are 'armed' with plows, chant hymns to Pelor and carry their babies around. Such an evil character will gladly join a party that defends a town against orcs. Sure, the guy will have to deal that the party doesn't kill orc prisoners but that is a small price to save the town from the orc menace. A character of mine, a LE Chinese necromancer with mobties faithfully joined a good aligned party because her boss Hoe Lang (corny Dutch joke) ordered her to. Since the BBEG wanted to kill everybody on the world for Nerull's greater glory, Hoe Lang wanted him stopped and my character obeyed blindly. Besides, my character was very happy being alive. It ended my character got killed to save the world. Luckily she was restored from the dead.

Hench IMAGE(http://cgi.ncrv.nl/cgi/ncrv/stand/images/smiles/regen2.gif)
#23

hiei_the_assassin

Sep 29, 2004 21:17:04
As you said, good actively hunts evil.

What about the Evil character who has been wronged by other evils and hunts them? This is the strange premise behind a certain Ur-priest I'm building. He was wronged by his dark god and now seeks to annihilate every last believer in said god. He makes an interesting point in the campaign as a strategic character, who knows how evil works. He brings more to the table than any paladin of cleric would concerning the "darker" activities.