I'd like to say up front though, that it isn't a bad idea. I tried to make a spontaneous divine class myself, but this class is just insane in what it can do. Essentially though, WotC broke its own main rule about spontaneous casting with this class, and really every other spontaneous casting class in the Munchk... err... Miniatures Handbook. The Sorcerer, the only previous spont. caster, was repeatedly said to be balanced because of how powerful of an ability spont casting really was. Repeatedly it was said that the ability to cast what you want, when you want, and to get metamagic on the fly was so powerful, that any extra class abilities would have been too much. Apparently the writers of the MH didn't agree with this, because they introduced several spont casters with class abilities out the yin-yang. This article is going to focus on one of those, the Favored Soul, the very first new base class this book introduced. Now, I am going to try not to give away everything you need to play this class, but I am going to try and do a breakdown on it, so there is going to be a lot of information here for those that insist on trying to leech from it. There shouldn't be enough here to actually reproduce a totally playable class from though, so here's hoping it'll be okay.
First thing you need to know, is that the Favored Soul is essentially the cleric version of a Sorcerer. Some things it shares practically cut and paste from the Sorcerer, such as BAB and spells per day. But that is where the similarities end, and the Favored Soul just starts to beat the Sorcerer like the proverbial red-headed step child.
Saves:
This should be one of your first warnings that something is wrong with the Favored Soul. Look at all the classic core class's Saves. You get one high, sometimes two. The Favored Soul has all three saves high. Yes, by 20th level, the FS's saves are +12/+12/+12. Not even any of the other classes in the MH can touch this.
Proficiencies, Hit Dice, and BAB:
FS gets all the armor and weapon proficiencies of the Cleric, but why? It specifically says that they are outside the normal orders of the churches, so why is it getting the armor and weapon profs taught by these orders? And don't forget the fact that they cast divine spells, so they don't have to worry about spell failure. This isn't too bad though, actually. The cleric has this, and they were trying to make a spontaneous cleric. Same reasoning can go for the fact they get the Cleric's d8 hitdice and BAB. Again, nothing seemingly bad here, but when combined with everything else, its just too much.
Spells:
We've got another big old slice of cheese here.
While the Favored Soul has the same number of spells per day as the Sorcerer, they actually know 17 spells MORE than the sorcerer does, and most of those are high level spells. We're talking 6 spells known of every level but 8th and 9th here people, compared to the Sorcerer knowing 3. Not only is the Favored Soul getting 30% more spells known than the Sorcerer, he's also getting access to Miracle to replicate all the other spells he doesn't know, and can cast it without the penalties a Sorcerer would suffer for Wish and Limited Wish. The Sorcerer must give up the majority of potential spells and really specialize, usually as a walking artillery platform. The Favored Soul doesn't, as their 60 spells know (as opposed to 43 spells known for the Sorcerer) means they pretty much get any spell they want. Did I mention they also get more spells per day than the Sorcerer at lower levels (although the Sorcerer does catch up by the end).
Now supposedly this is supposed to be balanced out by the fact that their casting is tied to two differant ability scores, Charisma and Wisdom, but that’s a straw man at best. Spell casting comes from Charisma, while save DCs come from Wisdom. Excuse me while I cry them a river, but by the time they reach a high enough level to actually cast high lvl spells, you can quite easily boost any ability up to a 19 to get access to all of your spells, then never touch that stat again. Any character that can't get Prime ability up to a 19 by lvl 20 probably doesn't deserve to be adventuring anyway.
Class Abilities:
This is where my biggest gripe is.
I could have swallowed everything above, and seen this as a perfectly well balanced class, that was totally playable. It would be just about identical to the sorcerer with a cleric twist. But they didn't stop there, they piled on the class abilities left and right.
Weapon Focus and Specialization: The Favored Soul gets free Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in their Deity's favored weapon. I can almost see this, as they're closer to being a true avatar of their deity than a normal cleric, but weapon specialization? That has been one of the only real advantages a Fighter had over anybody else, and he still didn't get it for free. After how Andy said that the Sorcerer didn't get Diplomacy as a class skill (which the flavor text clearly says it should) because too many other classes already had it, and they wanted to keep the classes distinct, why the heck are they stealing the Fighter's thunder here? Yes, the FS doesn't get it until a much later level than the Fighter does, but they get it for free as a class ability, where the Fighter still has to buy it with his feats.
Energy Resistance: Wait a minute, nobody else in the game that I've heard of gets anything remotely like this, especially not as a base class ability! The Favored Soul gets an energy resistance of 10 to any element of their choosing, and by 20th level, they get to pick THREE differant elements to apply this to! What the heck is up with this??? There are no drawbacks, no limits, they just get energy resist 10 to half the elements in the game, no questions asked.
Wings: The Favored Soul grows a big pair of freaking mundane wings out of his back, and gets to fly around as a Ex ability at a speed of 60' per round. What? Now I know NOBODY else gets this ability. Closest thing I know of is the Elemental Savant (Air) getting flight of 100' as the capstone ability for the PrC, and the FS is getting it in a base class, and it isn't even the biggest thing they get. Wait a minute, just let me say this again. They grow wings and get to fly around at double their ground speed, with good maneuverability, as a normal class ability, that isn't even their 20th level ability?
Damage Reduction: Now we're just adding insult to injury. The 3.5 Barbarian gets DR of 5/- at lvl 19. The Favored Soul gets DR of 10/(silver/cold iron depending on alignment). On top of everything else, they get twice the bloody damage reduction of a raging barbarian. Again, I have to ask, WHY???
Overall:
Compared to the cleric, the Favored Soul loses domains and the ability to turn undead. They gain flight, damage reduction, and more energy resistances than you can shake a stick at. They are better at spontaneous casting than the Sorcerer, better in combat than the cleric, and have better saves than everybody in the game short of a high charisma paladin.
As I've been writing this, I've come to a realization.
The Favored Soul is not supposed to be a spontaneous cleric, it is a thinly veiled attempt to put an actual god in the campaign under player control. I mean, look at what its got. The FS has a favored weapon, resistances to both magical and physical attacks, the ability to fly at will, is great at making any save, has the third highest hitdice in the game, second highest BAB in the game, and can all around mop the floor single handedly with anything he runs up against.
Compared to the Cleric, this thing is overpowered.
Compared to the Sorcerer, this thing is so crazy freaking broken no DM in their right mind even think about letting it into his game, and should smack the player that asked to try it for being an
That 's in the core rules. And in the Draconomicon the dragon slayer gets energy res 10 to all elements immunity to fear 3/- DR. Two good saves and a bonus feat of lightning reflexes and true strike as a move equivalent action once a day. And it gets half spell progression. This isn't including the anti dragon stuff.
Now neither of these classes are as good as favoured soul. I just wanted to point out that it is possible to get its abilities, albeit only with prestige classes.
The article also takes the abilities gained by the favored soul out of proportion and out of context.
If the information given about the last few abilities is correct, then the Favored Soul will get some chainsawing if I ever consider it. Specifically, High Will save, no free weapon feats, no wings, no energy resistances, no damage resistances, AND low BAB.
It seems to me that the MiniHB people tried to combine a spontaneous divine caster and a prestige class of some kind together in a terrible result.
Originally posted by Serene Selene
The article also takes the abilities gained by the favored soul out of proportion and out of context.
Care to back those up? Like how exactly its possible to even take Damage Reduction AND Energy Resistance to half the elements in the game out of context?
Or the ability to fly as a natural movement (meaning nothing short of cutting his wings off will keep the Favored Soul from flying, given enough room to do so). If anything, the Favored Soul turns the character into a high powered celestrial or a solar, but gives full casting progression at the same time and doesn't change the character's type so they gain the bonuses without the penalties of changing type.
If the Favored Soul had been billed as a Transitive Class into a Celestrial, changed character type to match, and forced a matching alignment onto the character, I might see it as balanced. But as billed, it has way too many powers, and not enough weaknesses.
But please, feel free to compare this to the Sorcerer, the main core spontaneous caster, or The Mystic, the spontaneously casting Cleric from Dragonlance Campaign Setting, or any of the core classes for that matter.
Worst of all the Favored Soul (and most of the other classes from the MH) simply shows one more way that the d20 system (which is a varied, flexible, and efficient system) is sliding into consumer pressure munchinisim from the video game generation.
Originally posted by pascalnz
Now neither of these classes are as good as favoured soul. I just wanted to point out that it is possible to get its abilities, albeit only with prestige classes.
But not while getting full caster progression.
Just the spellcasting is sufficient for an entire class (see the Dragonlance Mystic class, which is actually in line with the idea of a spontaneous divine caster). Just the physical abilities and saves is sufficient for an entire class. But both, in one package?
And with three energy resistances, it makes them very resilient to almost any monster in the game. Just with resistance to Fire and Cold you've ruled out the energy based attacks of most of the monsters in the game, not to mention now being virtually immune to weather hazards (too hot, too cold, doesn't matter, they can't do enough damage per round to hurt you). Take the other resistance in whatever type your DM likes to throw at you, and you're good to go.
While I readily agree with everything you said in your post, the FS is a terribly designed class, I believe that it should be pointed out that the FS is in the Miniatures Handbook. This means, judging from everything else is the book, that it was designed for miniatures games over role-playing campaigns. All of the base classes in the MH, excluding the slim possibility of the Marshal, are obviously intended not for D&D, but for Mini's. The designers even followed this philosophy when designing stuff for the MH, "What could be cooler that a mini that..."
Using the Miniatures rules, the FS would make a great, and balanced, miniature, however it is not designed for RPG's.
I am a bit disappointed with the ranting and the attitude of this post, especially in this forum, and doubly so from a poster I recognize as among the few whose opinion I respect. Furthermore, the FS only gets Med Armor Prof.
The Good and the Bad:
First, let me begin by saying that this class should be balanced against the Cleric only. If you balance the Cleric against the Wizard (or anything else), the Cleric wins by a mile. It is specifically overpowered for mechanical reasons (the need for a healer conflicting with the natural desire to play a non-support-only character leads to a healing character with offensive merit, ie an uber-class). Thus, when I discuss balance it will be with only the Cleric in mind, since the FS will fill a similar role in a party (though not identical, as I will later address).:thumbsdow The Wpn Prof, Focus, and Spec all have to be in the FS's deity's favored weapon. (Thought choosing a deity for domain was bad? How about choosing one for favored weapon?) This is not too big of a mechanical advantage, though the Weapon Spec does steal from the Fighter's flavor. I think the real failure here though isn't stealing flavor, but the loss of it. Those abilities tend to "trap" the player into a specific martial weapon. I have to choose a sub-optimal route if I want to take a different primary weapon. Let's say I'm a FS of Pelor. If I want to be an Undead Bane Mace of Disruption guy, I can. If I want to be a Holy Staff of Healing guy, I have to take a sub-optimal route. Now, I might, but I am still discouraged, and weaker role-players will be compeled not to "waste" this class ability.
Spells/day. More spells per day than Cleric? Check. Roughly as many as Sorcerer? Check. Sorcerer has more than Wizard? Check. FS has more that Clc? Check. Clc has more than Wiz? Check. FS has more than Sorc? NOT CHECK. Yes the FS has a lot of spells per day, but this is not unbalancing (nor was it argued that it was, just being systematic). Spells known. Also balanced. Yes, there are more than a Sor, but compare a Wiz (2 new/LV + $$$) to a Cleric (ALL). It is a rather small mark up after all, and only becomes so at the highest of levels. Also, the FS CANNOT spontaneous Cure/Inflict. That means to be a decent healer you either have to (1) take a Healing spell at most ever level (HP, affliction, or death healing) or (2) devote certian spell levels to healing and reserve those slots for it. Not to mention an Evil FS who wants to have both (to heal both himself and his undead allies) will have to "Know" 2 spells. Turn/Rebuke/Domains (Both spells and Powers). Those are all lost, belonging only to the Cleric. A wonderful move to make the classes distinct. Distinction which the Sorc / Wiz is in serious need of. Domain powers are varried, and balance pretty well against the weapon feats. Don't think those stack up? Compare +1 Att / +2 Dmg with (possibly) a Martial Weapon stack up to 2 Controlled Elemental servants (with the Elemental domains) or the Utter Undead Blasting Power of a Sun / Glory domain combo (which one of the deities in BoED allows). Energy Resistance. I think that this is a good trade off for Turn/Rebuke. If you think your FS are min/maxing by always choosing Fire/Cold/Acid or Electricity, then send some more Energy Admixtured Sonic Fireballs at them. After all, that is what PCs do to thwart ER, so it only makes since that everyone else does as well. After a few Undead encounters you will see how a Cleric makes those easy. (Want to kill a Vampire for good? Heighten Turning Feat or High CH + Sun Domain = Dead Vamp the easy way). Also realize that only the first one will see much play. The second will see some, but the 3rd very little. After all, you can get that kind of protection from a low level spell. At best, you might want to make sure you justify your choices RP not metagame. "My FS of Pelor chooses Fire, because Pelor is a Sun god. No sunburn for me at worship time!!!" of "My FS of Pelor chooses Cold, because the warmth of Pelor burns in my soul!!!" Electricity, Acid, or Sonic might be harder to justify. For a FS of Olidimarra, however, Sonic is appropriate (since Oli is a patron of many Bards). This wouldn't so much be a rule, as a flavor suggestion.:thumbsdow Wings. Clip them. They only come at very high level, and if you in the last five levels of the 20 and you don't have other ways to fly, then it is only because you don't want to. It makes no sense, is abuseable at best, worthless at worst. Definitely a PrC only type of thing. There is no excuse for this ability, and chopping it is the one change I make to the class.
The LV 20 DR. Is it big, yes. Is it pointless, yes. It comes too late to break game balance. It is not like a PrC where the LV10 Apotheosis of the Class might come a character level 15. This is CL 20. At this point, you are almost epic, and most everything is going to fly out the window already, even if you have held it together until this point. If it was incremental and came sooner I would chop it, but it isn't worth it if it is only at level 20. Split Abilities for spellcasting. Wouldn't be an annoyance for a Cleric who needs the CH for Turning and WS for casting, but I found boosting one all the time was necessary for the saves, leaving my other low. That meant my save DC stat was boosted by Items and Levels (since I wanted it as high as possible) and my spell ability was boosted by items alone (since DC means more to me than one or two extra low level spells). That meant that if I was itemless, I was greatly weakened until high levels when I could miracle it up.
My Take:
The class makes a good Thaumaturgist. Curing, Summoning, Protecting, and Buffing with spells, and entering Melee when necessary. (I am presently playing a FS of Wee Jas that way and I am enjoying summoning Monstrous Scorpions all the time from the protection of Sanctuary).
Again, I can not stress enough the pointlessness of those wings and how quickly I removed them from the class in my campaigns. All-in-all though, it really does not overpower any more than the Cleric does, so I allow it.
The Evangelist gets SIX domains. More if you take a level or two of contemplative or another prc that grants additional domains. Those domain powers add up, especially for an evangelist with no devotion. Imagine having the domains luck, fate, travel, fire, celerity, and mysticism. Sure, the Favored Soul might be a bit better in combat, but In terms of spells known and sheer versatility, the Evangelist wins hands down.
Originally posted by Edymnion
Proficiencies, Hit Dice, and BAB:
FS gets all the armor and weapon proficiencies of the Cleric, but why? It specifically says that they are outside the normal orders of the churches, so why is it getting the armor and weapon profs taught by these orders? And don't forget the fact that they cast divine spells, so they don't have to worry about spell failure. This isn't too bad though, actually. The cleric has this, and they were trying to make a spontaneous cleric. Same reasoning can go for the fact they get the Cleric's d8 hitdice and BAB. Again, nothing seemingly bad here, but when combined with everything else, its just too much.[/b]
The Favored Soul doesn't get the all the Armor proficiencies of the Cleric. The Cleric gets Heavy and the Favored Soul doesn't. My question to you is have you play tested this against a Cleric and Sorcerer? If not how can you really know it is over powered? I can give you that it can look look overpowered but isn't that the only way to know?
Didn't you post this in another forum? Anyway, it's like I said before, the secret to playing all the classes balanced is to actually "role-play" not to "roll-play". Besides, we have a favored-one in our party. He's a front-liner that does combat-buffs on himself all the time. Also, the fact is, that the favored one is meant for MASS COMBAT, not regular adventuring. That's why it's in the miniature's handbook.
That does indeed sound more like a race or template than a 20 level class. Personally, I'd cut every class ability except wings (after all, they don't get a familiar), bring the spells back down to the same number a sorcerer should have, and get the saving throws back to 6 Fort/6 Reflex/12 Will. Then maybe it would be balanced.
Saves:
Ok, so they get high saves for all three saves. Powerful? You betcha. Is there any other base class in the MHB that can touch this? Nope. But there is in the PHB. The Monk. Why should the Favored Soul get the same saves as the Monk though? Well, I suppose it's because both are somewhat beings of perfection. Thus, as beings of perfection they should have few flaws. And what better to iron out flaws then to have outstanding base saves?
Proficiencies, Hit Dice, and BAB:
The Favored Soul does not get all the proficiencies of the Cleric as you claim. They have the proficiency in the use of simple weapons, as does the Cleric and Sorcerer, and the addition of their deity's favored weapon. The addition of their deity's favored weapon is indeed quite the boon. However, Clerics with the War domain not only gain proficiency in their deity's favored weapon, but a weapon focus on it as well. A full two levels before the Favored Soul gets weapon focus as a class ability. What's this? They have the same proficiencies if and only if the Cleric has the War domain? Not quite. You see, the cleric has the advantage of the heavy armor proficiency. Why is that such a great deal? Well, because when you've got heavy armor you don't need an outstanding Dexterity bonus to offset the difference with medium armor. Meaning the Favored Soul has to have a higher Dexterity score to compete in combat with a Cleric. So really, they seem to be a spontaneous Cleric, just as the Sorcerer is a spontaneous counterpart to the Wizard, but is worse at combat rather than better. Yes, the Sorcerer is better at combat than the Wizard. Why? Wizards aren't proficient with all the simple weapons and Sorcerers also have bluff as a class skill.
Spells:
Spells per day between the Sorcerer and the Favored Soul are the same. Despite what you may think, that shifts the favor towards the Sorcerer. Why? Compare the Wizard and Cleric spells per day. Clerics get one more spell per spell level per day, other than 0th level of course, due to the domain spell. While the domain spell is rather limited in choice, it is still nonetheless another spell per spell level per day to add to the Cleric's arsenal. Known spells eating away at you? Well, why not cry out that the Cleric is vastly overpowering the Wizard? The Cleric not only knows all spells on his spell list, but doesn't have to pay money for them either. A Wizard theoretically could learn all every spell on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. But the amount of funds it would take is a bit less than 240600 gold and that's if he/she finds friendly wizards to copy the spells from and that's just the spells from the PHB(No I didn't factor in the spells they learn for free, I don't have all the time in the world). Not to mention the amount of space needed to hold all those arcane tomes. Spells known? The Favored Soul doesn't gain much of a foothold over the Sorcerer for spells known when you compare the Cleric to the Wizard. Not to mention the fact that the Sorcerer actually has a wider variety of spells to choose from, allowing for a more flexible caster(not flexible day to day, but more flexible in the options of character development) to better suit a campaign or party. Not to mention that the Wizard/Sorcerer spells are "more powerful" than those of a Cleric. For instance, the Sorcerer may not be able to fly with wings, but certainly may with the spell. Not to mention the ability to fly while under greater invisibility and flinging fireballs every round at a much lower level.
The Favored Soul's casting being tied to two abilities are also very crucial. Sure, it's less of a factor at high levels when one has magical items to "close the gap" with its single ability tied spellcasting competition. But while the Favored Soul is low level, it may not actually survive due to it's fewer spells per day, no access to mid-high level spells, or lower DC due to the fact that they have to spread out their scores. When does this matter? When the abilities are fair. Say, with point buy or using the standard ability scores. The Favored Soul has many choices to consider when they don't have the option of using the 2 16's and 17's they have rolled in character creation.
Class Abilities:
Ok, now onto where you seem to have the biggest problems.
Weapon Focus and Specialization:
The Favored Soul steps into the Fighter's domain with the Specialization. However, a Fighter does practically get it for free, considering the multitude of bonus feats they obtain to use for the feat. Why should this matter so much though? Fighters aren't Fighters because of Weapon Specialization. Fighters have their niche because they are able to adapt and learn several different fighting techniques. And as I had previously pointed out the Weapon Focus can be gained by a Cleric with the War domain. And as you say, these abilities come much later in the game. A point I'd like to say +1 damage isn't as significant.
Energy Resistance:
Yes this is a powerful, class ability. As powerful as the Monk's Diamond Soul? Certainly not, but the Monk's Diamond Soul does come at a later level than the Favored Soul's Energy Resistance. Energy Resistance is helpful, but not every situation is going to make this a determining factor. And the Favored Soul is still vulnerable to the types of energy he/she did not pick.
Wings:
Wings are certainly a boon to the Favored Soul, but it can also be a hindrance. In a campaign where hiding one's identity it can be quite detrimental. Also, the Favored Soul is going to need space to be able to take advantage of those wings, and most hack and slash games are fought in dungeons where one doesn't take full advantage flying. 60 foot move however isn't that huge of a leap. Yes, it's outstanding to be able to move that far without relying on a mount or magical items, but a monk of comparable level could practically fly and have a 10 foot advantage on the Favored Soul. Not to mention flying has its limitations when trying to change directions, a situation that happens all too often on the battlefield.
Damage Reduction:
Favored Souls also get Damage Reduction. More than the Barbarian in fact! That is overpowering. Until you notice that the Barbarian's DR cannot be bypassed. Not only that, but the same DR of a Monk. But the Monk's is harder to bypass than the Favored Soul as it takes magic rather than your easily obtained silver or cold iron weapons.
Overall:
Yes, this class is overpowered. But not by a whole lot. Why? Because it has too many ability scores to maintain to compete with it's competition for not all the benefits the competition reaps when specializing. A casting Favored Soul isn't going to hold a candle to a Cleric or a Sorcerer who doesn't even have to focus most of their good abilities into casting, while the Favored Soul does. The Favored Soul also cannot compete in combat against a similar level Cleric who are both focusing on combat because the Cleric doesn't need a high Dexterity modifier for defensive capabilities while the Favored Soul does. Not to mention the Favored Soul's pitiful fighting prowess compared to a Monk, who has the same HD, BAB, and Base Saves, despite the Favored Soul's ability to supplement their fighting ability with spells(Considering both have limited ability scores to work with).
All in all, it really is up to the DM to include this or not into their campaign. It certainly could be overpowered, but then again, it may not be depending on the DM and playing style of the group.
Right off the bat, I want to point out that I like approx. 90% of the rest of the Mini Handbook, and I would say that of the other 3 base classes the Healer and Warmage are pretty solid and decently balanced (by the way I don’t want to get into a discussion of this here that should be a separate thread). The Marshal has its own problems.
It took me just a few minutes to exclude the Favored Soul from my own campaign.
Just recently a regular player pushed me on allowing an adjusted version, this was our final solution:
Alignment: Any (buy must match deity-the one step rule was silly in my opinion this class is akin to the Chosen of ... from Fearun. You represent a direct conduit to your god you not only have to be the same alignment but we worked out a code of conduct coming close to the paladin's)
Skill: same
Weapon & Armor Prof.- Of note here, Endymion made a minor error here the class is not proficient with Heavy Armor and we left it the same as the base class.
Saves: We dropped the Reflex save back to a clerics (why they thought they needed to give them all 3 saves at good was baffling to me as well).
Left spells as they were I still had some reservations here but by in large I hate messing with creating alternate tables (For my campaign I did require that I choose one of his 3 known spells at each new spell level to signify the God's direct connection in this mortal's life, By the way sometimes Gods in my campaign will deny clerics certain spells at certain times so this does not come out of left field).
For special abilities I left Deity's weapon Focus and Specialization but they were not free feats. I removed one of the energy resistances. Tthey come at 15th and 20th level. I removed Damage Resistance.
Wings comes at 20th level and the character gains outsider status upon attaining this level. (For my own campaign I made it clear that though we have not played an epic campaign yet anyway, 20th level would also mean that the character has become a herald/champion for his god and is retired from active PC status.)
Originally posted by Finley DaDum
First off very nice analysis, Endymion.
Right off the bat, I want to point out that I like approx. 90% of the rest of the Mini Handbook, and I would say that of the other 3 base classes the Healer and Warmage are pretty solid and decently balanced (by the way I don’t want to get into a discussion of this here that should be a separate thread). The Marshal has its own problems.
It took me just a few minutes to exclude the Favored Soul from my own campaign.
Why did you exclude it? Was it played and seemed overpowered? Of did it just look like it?
*gets on the soapbox*
*thinks better of it and steps down and invites Josh Kablack, Oberoni, etc, etc to post their arguments again*
Same story as the other thread we all responded to.
Easy as pie to find something stronger than this class in the PHB: Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer. If using core/splat, even easier to make a level 20 character that is "stronger" with any other base class + PrC.
If you play in a game where people have 18's in more than one stat (or any stat for some games I've been in) then a character of this ilk looks pretty strong. If you play one of the other primary casters in the same game it's stronger. If you're allowed other sources, making something stronger is simple. Kind of like the argument where someone said the Mystic Theurge was overpowered by giving a build with Ur-Priest in it. Interesting how that build does without Ur-Priest or True Necromancer...
we want to make the Favored Soul "pure swiss" we must nerf every other primary caster there is, disallow every prestige class, etc. I've debated this on the other thread from a min-max viewpoint how totally not-strong this is for a caster. Especially one who has to keep two "casting stats" reasonably high and can't just pump one like everybody else and put the other "high" stats into something that's actually going to save you at low levels where one hit will kill your character and will save you at higher levels if you don't have the foresight to get everything just right (buffing).
*shrug*
I do also think that the loss of heavy armor is a really bad thing, there is no way of getting this back beside of losing a casterlevel or a feat.
The loss of two domains is a very bad thing. First of all, regarding the number of spells known, clerics do not only know all clerical spells, they do even know more from their domains. There are quite a few domains that grant access to great wizard spells. The domain-powers are just another point; some of them are really powerful. Travel, for example, gives a huge benefit especially at lower levels when not every guy walks along with freedom of movement. Many of the most important abilities are cut off by this, and a hold cleric is much more in danger then one getting a weak elemental su-ability.
Elemental resistances:
I thought you were joking. It’s one of the earliest and most-used buffs in the game, at the level a FS gets it every cleric and his friend are using elemental resistances or even immunities by buffing. It’s nice to have, but in no way crucial.
Weapon specialization:
I think this one is useless. It’s not the best feat or totally overpowered for them to have, but it does indeed steel from the fighters flavor. Giving it for free would be a point one could change. I don’t think its too bad from a mechanical point of view, compare the +2 to divine favor and most melee-clerics wont even get the difference.
Until here, I am really fine with this class. The high-level abilities are mainly cut off by using a PrC anyhow, and games where things like a PrC (uh) are not common will most likely not integrate the new core classes, imo. There remains a point to say though: There several possibilities to abuse the FS balance with the same mechanism a sorcerer can get more spells: adding a domain via a PrC.
A FS is not a cleric, so one could qualify for the windwalker in F&P without having access to air or travel, but would get access to all the spells. Divine disciple, contemplative, sacred exorcist and a good number of others does grant a domain. It’s discussable whether the FS gets the spells to her list of spells known or if they are just castable in a domain-slot, but in any case a FS would get an additional spell per day via a domain slot, would be the same as a druid taking a domain.
First, these are methods not really used by most players out there, I came over from the min/max-board where the abusive potential of the FS was already taken care of, partly by myself using the ways mentioned above, but without a great echo. Getting people excited on the min/max-board is kind of a good benchmark for a class (with the exception of the MT who was discussed loudly but found not really impressive but in a few special cases), latest examples are the dervish and the swashbuckler.
In my opinion, the favored soul is a well-balanced and good flavored class. One could do minor changes like removing weapon specialization, but that’s most likely up to everybody for his own, some people tend to customize PrCs also and I am perfectly fine with this, but its not becoming the rules just because of an opinion.
I would never go so far to doubt the knowledge about the game mechanics from those who found the favored soul being overpowered but in fact i think that some of those people should reconsider the usefulness of some minor features compared to the power the standard clerical spellcasting gives at this point anyhow.
gs
Funny
Think of it this way: What's the standard route to power in D&D? PrC, PrC, PrC. What happens if you PrC with Favored Soul? You lose all your special class abilities since you can now never freaking get to them. You're unlikely to get anything more than free weapon focus and 1 energy resistance. Really, the first 9 levels are complete crap. Oh, and Knowledge (religion) isn't a class skill for you, so good luck finding a divine PrC you can even qualify for.
You cast more spells per day than a cleric, but that didn't seem to stop the Sorcerer from sucking, did it? Indeed, while the sorcerer casts 2 spells more per level than the wizard, the FS only casts 1 more spell per spell level than a cleric. For this glorious ability, you only know roughly 1/4 of the cleric spells.
Oh, and you have 2 stats for spellcasting. Your Cha determines DC and highest spell level, but Wis determines bonus spells. So you're likely to have one and not the other. Unless you have gold flowing out your ears. It's the same flaw as TWF vs THF.
Wings and DR are entirely irrelevant. At the level you get them, you'll be throwing around 9th level spells. DR 10/silver, DR 10/cold iron, and flight are all available through spells of that level -- and generally from spells of lower level. To say nothing of magic items that are fairly cheap and common at these levels.
Here's the skinny: You lose domain powers and domain spells, 3/4 of your spells known (clerics know all spells), spontaneous healing, heavy armor, and turn undead. You get good reflex saves, and a bunch of back-ended abilities. Oh, and the War domain's power... spread out over 3 levels.
1. Luck.
2. DM cooperation on the topic (so (s)he'd have a chance to increase the difficulty of your encounters accordingly), which you should always have anyway.
3. An 'extreme' alignment. You'd have to agree totally with the deity on the topic. A player would have to RP it well, or loose the attachment.
The end result from me is: Games are broken. Classes aren't. The Dungeon Master may have to flex the game, but he gets so much control over the character that it's okay! The player (pretty much) can't retreat when his/her deity wouldn't!
-B.
After having experienced the FS uberness I and the game master actually sat down and tried to figure out how we could ever challenge the group without the FS striding through without a scratch or to kill every1 besides the FS without making the player feel focused on. This proved to be near impossible. The FS is built around melee, very little healing power, most spells are selected with combat improvement in mind ... and his race is outsider giving him more resistance and the like.
Now this guy can buff up like a madman. He can practically fly around the combat zone using immediate/swift spells -> melee specialists.
Using hos spells is what makes him do more damage than me as a blaster and withstand more damage than our psychic warrior. He is more resistant to anything due to racial/class imps, his armor class is decent by taking fighter feats (cb. expert ). A good situation to illustrate this is when our DM wanted to capture us and strip us naked (some items where too powerful in the group - needed an 'item-reset' ). He created a situation with us being mad underdogs while disabling us with non-lethal damage from rogues/hold monster/etc... The ranger was the first to go down to 2 rogues with spiked chains/saps. Then came the psy fighter having taken down 1 rogue then going down as well to spells/non-lethal. The sors (me) went down by being grappled and constrained/sap'ed (while invis). At this time 3-4 rounds had passed and we were in way over our heads, as was meant.
Now the FS had taken only light damage. Due to his swift spells moving him around and so on he managed to get in melee with a lvl 15 caster early on (our average party lvl = 10). With the group down the wizard summoned the rogues/fighters to his side and they started pounding the FS. It took 6 rogues with sneak attack (all non-lethal still), another lvl 12 wizard and the original lvl 15 wiz 3-4 rounds to take that FS down. In this time the FS managed to take out the lvl 15 wiz and a rogue. Seeing that happen with all his abilities coming into play one by one ticked me off. He can cast the same amount of spells as I can, knows a lot more spells than I do, and can fight! In situations he can blast more effectively than me, fight more consistently than the fighter and heal us afterwards.
Honestly, I think he can take us in a 3v1 if he buffs enough. Normally he only gets a single prot spell (swift actions - so more in the fight) and bull’s strength off before it gets thick.
What can’t he do? He’s not a versatile blaster, but decent, VERY decent with only 2 chosen ranged attack spells. He can fight if buffed. With swift casted spells he can buff midfight; he has armor+hp+resist+weap before being buffed. He has absolutely NO drawback. Two casting ability scores? Diminish that with items ffs - even better ... dis the one. Buff yourself and never need a cast lvl check.
Those who say FS is a decent class take a walk. Compare to sorcerer with normal thinking. Sors takes a beating on using metamagic, has no class abilities WHATSOEVER, cracks like a stick, does not wear armor, has the MOST limited access to spells. In this I don’t mean amount of spells to choose from but the amount you can take. Your high lvl spells is diminished to 1-2 highest lvl known and a slow growth rate. Everything the sors has as drawbacks has an opposite advantage in the FS arsenal.And don’t even dare mention that divine spells are less powerful than arcane. They are just as deadly/effective. Worst of all, it makes creating encounters almost twice as demanding for DM as he has to very inventive to challenge a FS.
Also, Favoured Soul only gets medium armor, clerics get heavy.
Similarly, although energy resistance is easy to get, you don't always have it; and the Resist Energy doesn't last all day whilst surprise encounters, or encounters with enemies that have access to different elements do make it powerful.
When we had one in our group we also had a fighter, wizard, scout and cleric and the sheer number of spells meant that dominated a he could heal almost as well as the cleric; What cleric really wants to use all his spells for healing? He had the ability to cast his buff spells over and over again to outfight the fighter and had a good choice of weapon (Greatsword, FS of Kord) to go with it. He also out damaged the scout and could outlast the wizard and with a choice of one or two blast spells could sustain magic attacks for as long as the wizard, though of course he could happily mash things in melee...
Possibly if you throw together optimised builds he's not overpowered; but from a total of three games that I've been in with favoured souls there are only two exceptions that are more powerful.
1. Druids (obviously
)2. Clerics when you give them full access to spontaneous Sanctified Cheese from BOED
Those who say FS is a decent class take a walk. Compare to sorcerer with normal thinking. Sors takes a beating on using metamagic, has no class abilities WHATSOEVER, cracks like a stick, does not wear armor, has the MOST limited access to spells. In this I don’t mean amount of spells to choose from but the amount you can take. Your high lvl spells is diminished to 1-2 highest lvl known and a slow growth rate. Everything the sors has as drawbacks has an opposite advantage in the FS arsenal.And don’t even dare mention that divine spells are less powerful than arcane. They are just as deadly/effective. Worst of all, it makes creating encounters almost twice as demanding for DM as he has to very inventive to challenge a FS.
Or the sorcerer is a subpar class, but the only one we can compare as a spontaneous caster. Seriously, the sorcerer isn't that good, so saying the favored soul is better than a bad class is relatively pointless.
I can see how a FS can be overly powerful when designed for pure-combat only as a fighter-type, which is useful in a campaign where characters just fight, but I've never played in one of those so I don't know. Some of the higher level cleric spells are decently powerful, I admit, and I haven't played a FS at high level, so the example above seems plausible. I disagree about cleric spells. Overall the cleric spell list lacks the diversity of the wizard/sorcerer list and most of the lower level spells are 'eh' power wise. There are about 10000000 threads on this topic. I'd rather have rope trick over zone of truth any day ("gee, is the half-fiend lying, let me cast a spell and MAYBE find out.") I will not be "taking a walk," thank you.
The favored soul is a poor choice compared to the spontaneous divine caster option in Unearthed Arcana, and I encouraged a player in our current campaign to take that option instead. If that the UA is better than the FS, and the FS is supposedly broken, then that PC should be broken but she isn't because most cleric spells are better selected for one-day specialized situations rather than long-term use (if you want your character to be more than a two-trick pony, that is).
My main beef is with the OP's comments about what constitutes "proper" class abilities. The perspective offered is rigid, unimaginative, and old-school. Apparently, the OP has never read, say Heroes of Horror, where the Dread Necromancer goes from DR 2 (at 2nd level) to DR 8 (For those who don't know it, the whole point of the class is to become a lich over 20 levels). I've played one for 11 levels and I would never say he's overpowered in practice. And then there's the warlock. Obviously a terrible, stupid class for daring to have PrC-like class abilities
The OP never responded to others' question of whether he's played the class, so I'm guessing not. In terms of balancing power, I thought the idea of the DM picking 1 spell per level to reflect the god's wishes was a very creative idea and I might do this, but the other changes seems based on fear rather than experience with the class. The good news is that this entire thread is pointless (I'm bored this evening) and WotC won't be altering it so those of us who like the class as-is can continue to enjoy it.
Mocking the Miniatures Handbook isn't exactly endearing your position to me either but, meh, my opinion is my opinion. The favored soul is essentially a slight variant on the paladin. The wings, the DR and many other abilities come too late for it to be really amazing the way most would like, also the severe limit on their spell list is also a problem. In most cases they have to pick one design and stick with it the whole way through.
Spontaneous casting is a joke in terms of power, useful but it has enough holes and weaknesses to fly a death star through. There are debates on this constantly; the real problem being that casting classes have many many issues with internal balance alone is worth a thread.
The warmage is an even worse example of this (a fairly weak class looking too strong), but that's for another thread.
Let's look at MAD. A caster favored soul has to focus on four statistics - Constitution and Dexterity for survivability, and Charisma *and* Wisdom for casting. A melee favored soul has to focus on five - strength, as well as the above. In contrast, a fighting cleric needs only Strength, Constitution, and Wisdom (and a caster only the latter two).
A Favored Soul is faced with a stunted BAB progression and a lack of good ability choices. A favored soul gains two combat-progression abilities - Weapon Focus and Weapon Specalization (+1/+2).
With a 28-point buy, a melee [human] favored soul might look something like this:
14 strength
14 dexterity
10 constitution
8 intelligence
16 Charisma
12 Wisdom.
Alternatively, Wild [Wood] Elf may be the best choice -
16 strength
16 dexterity
10 constitution
6 intelligence
16 Cha
12 Wisdom
Let's look at a melee [Deep Dwarf] Cleric in comparison, however.
16 Strength
10 Dexterity
16 Constitution
8 Intelligence
8 Charisma
16 Wisdom
I can tell you which I would rather play - the one with two higher AC (Cleric with full plate), +3 hit points/level, better saves (with the exception of Reflex, which he can soak due to HP) and far better casting - [16 wisdom for Bonus Spells and DCs, as comparison to the Cha/Wis dichotomy for Favored Souls]. In addition, the Cleric gets his spells a level early, and has just as many spells-per-day as a Favored Soul [5+1 vs. 6. They end up being the same], while knowing a heck of a lot more of them.
Everything a Favored Soul can do, a Cleric can do better - except grow wings at 17th level, when he has Domains and therefore Shapechange or similar, and the Favored Soul is stuck with 8th-level spells.
Today, all we see is "CoDzilla smash!" and never hear anything about the Favored Soul.
I don’t know if the OP is still alive, and if yes, if he still thinks that the Favored Soul is broken, but I want to tell him this: Core classes should be good enough to play all the way lvl 20, and not jump to a Prestige Class by lvl 6.
Having great abilities at higher lvls are great to make a class interesting and playable. Does anyone try to play a 20th lvl Sorcerer?
The Favored Soul has no Divine Metamagic.
The Favored Soul doesn't get to play with all the other divine feats because most of them have turning or wildshape prereqs. They also can't take arcane feats because a bunch of them are, well, arcane.
The Favored Soul is not a 24-7 36-Buffs drop-of-a-hat killing machine.
The Cleric is.
(Or I'm playing my Favored Soul all wrong.)
It’s interesting to see this 2 year old thread. I didn’t know that a couple of years a go, the Favored Soul was seen as broken (Maybe in the future, those classes from Tome of Battle neither!).
Today, all we see is "CoDzilla smash!" and never hear anything about the Favored Soul. I don’t know if the OP is still alive, and if yes, if he still thinks that the Favored Soul is broken
Yeah, I'm still here, and yes, I still consider the Favored Soul to be broken and no, I still do not allow it in my games.
but I want to tell him this: Core classes should be good enough to play all the way lvl 20, and not jump to a Prestige Class by lvl 6.
Did I ever say they shouldn't?
Yeah, I'm still here, and yes, I still consider the Favored Soul to be broken and no, I still do not allow it in my games.
Did I ever say they shouldn't?
Ow, yes, you didn’t say that. But, you said that was unfair to see a spontaneous caster with special abilities. The Sorcerer doesn’t. Well, believe me, I’m one of the few that still see the Cleric as an "almost" warrior type, but, as a trade off, he can cast cure spells and that’s a lot!
Maybe it’s because I’m a little "First Edition" player (A Human Fighter IS a human Fighter, and not a Human Fighter 2/Psiwarrior2/Barbarian 4/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Frienzied Berserker 10).
Anyway, what is the biggest problem about the Sorcerer? It’s the fact that is does NOT get any new special abilities after lvl 1. So, EVERYBODY multiclass, because you don’t lose anything!
The game shouldn’t be like that. Someone should be able to play with a sword ans shield Fighter all the way lvl 20 without feeling useless near that "Salad Fruit" that is the "Human Fighter 2/Psiwarrior2/Barbarian 4/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Frienzied Berserker 10".
What I meant was: The Favored Soul get some nice abilities and maybe they are enough to a player to accept playing with him all the way 20. So, to the DM (maybe you), things would go easier, because you won’t see a Cleric 5/ God All Mighty Killer 3/ Everybody’s assassin 3/ Kick A$$ 4 ruining your games.
I mean, what do you prefer, a 20 lvl Favored Soul or that character that a guy made from multiclassing that add his str, dex, int, wis and cha bonus to damage? Truth said, I hate the way Wizards made multiclass in 3rd Edition. There should be more laws about it.
Screaming about sorcerer spontaneous casting strikes me as silly because sorcerers are arcane, and have access to a much better spell list; even with that benefit they're still on the weak side (the value of their spontaneous casting was rather drastically overestimated and even the 3.0E designers admit that much).
Weapon Focus and Specialisation: The FS gets both of these, but at later levels that the Fighter.
The Weapon Focus isn't great, because anyone can take that, Fighter or not, and they get to pick the weapon (the closest a FS can get is picking a deity that has the weapon he wants, which comes with a whole lot of other baggage). It's a free but restricted feat, much worse than the Fighter's Bonus Feat, because Fighter gets to pick whatever feat he likes.
Weapon Spec is better, and IS Fighter only. However, it still isn't going to be giving the Weapon Spec-ed Fighter a run for his money, because many of the deities weapons are crap. A FS of Wee Jas or Obad-Hai isn't exactly going to have the Fighter shaking in his boots at the daggers 1d4+2 or quarterstaff's 1d6+2. Some gods fare better than others, here, with things like the Scythe or Greatsword.
Spontaneous Replacement of Clerics: FS adds a new option as a group healer - but not one anywhere near as good as a cleric. While Cure Light Wounds seems like a good choice for a FS spell to know, it eventually stops being worth anything when 1d8 becomes a drop in the bucket for healing, and the FS can't get rid of it. The Cleric can simply not select the spell - and even still spontaneously cast it!
Then take something less the Restoration trees. Very good spells, but only very situationally useful. Either the FS won't know these spells - in which case when attribute and level drain come up, the group will sit around begging for a cleric who can help them; Or the FS will take them, and spend 99% of his time not casting them and wishing he knew a better spell instead. Cleric has the flexibility to pop it in and pop it out again. The Raise Dead line fits in here as well, along with a whole bunch of other situational Cleric healing.
I like the FS. I like the flavour, the abilities, the whole package. I think it's bordering on a little weak on the power side, but it adds an interesting alternative (not replacement) for the Cleric.
Yeah, I'm still here, and yes, I still consider the Favored Soul to be broken and no, I still do not allow it in my games.
Ok, let's go back over all of this, comparing to core only:
BAB: Average. only 2 classes have as low: Wizard and Sorcerer
Saves: Good. Monks also have full saves, but 2 of 3 is common as well (4 other classes)
Skills: Poor. Bottom of the lot with the rest of the 2+ int classes.
Armor and weapons: Average. Basically match 5 classes for armor, and at the bottom for weapons.
HD: Average (3 classes with d8, 4 with less than d8, 3 with great than d8)
So just at that point we're looking at a completely average class. This means that we need to find the overpoweredness of the class either in spell casting or class abilities.
Starting with class abilities:
2 feat (Weapon weapon focus, Weapon specialization)
3 Energy resistances of 10 at 5th, 10th and 15th level.
Wings at 17th level
And DR or 10/ cold iron or silver based on alignment at 20th level.
Let's compare to a druid:
Wildshape.
Seriously, that's all it takes for a druid to match everything. Weapon focus and specialization? Made up for at 5th with wildshape stats. Wings? Done, at 5th level (12 levels before the Favored Soul), with an 80' fly speed. Energy resistance? Immunity of choice as needed at 16th. DR? 5/- at 16th. Lots of other bonuses? Check.
Heck, at 16th level, you might as well just call the druid an air elemental and then throw the game out the window with your thinking. 100' perfect fly speed, DR 5/-, 18 str, 29 dex, 18 con, immune to critical hits and stunning, 15' reach....
Slap on draconic or exalted wildshape for some real fun.
That leaves spells. The favored soul gets to focus, well, HAS to focus on doing 1 thing since they don't know all the spells, just a subset. The druid can change what they do from day to day, and get spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally spells for very good utility no matter what they choose to do. The druid ends up with a handful of fewer slots, but only has to focus on 1 stat to make the casting good, and can basically ignore physical stats while doing so.
The Favored Soul is not supposed to be a spontaneous cleric, it is a thinly veiled attempt to put an actual god in the campaign under player control. I mean, look at what its got.
I can only point to the druid and laugh when you call the favored soul "a thinly veiled attempt to put an actual god in the campaign under player control." Everything you cite as a problem, the core only druid does quicker and pretty much hands down better.
Edymnion do you allow Clerics or Druids in the game? From a min/max standpoint just using the core rules they're scarier than the Favoured Soul esp the Druid. Add in the splat books and its CoDzilla. Your article was more of a rant but I loved your commoners one BTW.
Screaming about sorcerer spontaneous casting strikes me as silly because sorcerers are arcane, and have access to a much better spell list; even with that benefit they're still on the weak side (the value of their spontaneous casting was rather drastically overestimated and even the 3.0E designers admit that much).
Actually, I have *NEVER* seen them actually admit that the Sorcerer is underpowered, which is the crux of the argument for me. The FS beats the Sorcerer out, hands down, no questions asked, but the designers still claim they are both just fine. They're not. Either one is over powered, or one is under powered, they cannot both be fine as written.
More importantly I'm thinking that Edy might not have read the spells correctly. They don't have access to the entire list, they have known spells just as the sorcerer does. If anything the favored soul is far weaker than a cleric of the same level simply because the cleric will have a greater range of options and abilities at their disposal.
And the cleric *IS* a class the designers have repeatedly said that they intentionally made overpowered in an attempt to get somebody to actually play one.
Comparing the favored soul to a sorcerer forgets one crucial thing: In D&D, arcane spell progression is treated as a bigger plus than divine.
You could argue that’s not just, but for the sake of realistics, you should not really try to compare their spellcasting. A better comparison is the cleric, so lets go down the list of differences:
Cleric: Domain spells, Domain abilities, heavy armor proficiency, turn undead, access to every spell to prepare, access to higher level spells quicker.
Favored soul: Energy resistances, favored weapon, damage reduction, wings, good reflex saves, more spells/day, spontaneous casting.
The simple fact is this: The spontaneous spellcasting and extra spells per day are diminished by a few factors. One is that the difference in spells/day is bridged somewhat by the domain spells a cleric gets. That aside, The cleric can already spontaneously turn all his spells into healing spells of equivalent level, so he need not ever prepare a healing spell. A favored soul's spells known is similarly diminished by the fact that he is most likely expected to be either the main healer or at least A healer, so he has to choose a healing spell for that level, leaving several spells known taken away. A cleric however can take ANY spell he wants as long as he prepares it that day, which is an immense advantage, especially in dealing with diseases and such that can wait a day. Finally, Clerics get one more advantage over the favored soul in spellcasting: Access to the higher level spells a level faster.
Overall I would say the cleric's spellcasting is much more useful and overall better in cases of anything but sheer dungeon crawl where loads of spells per day are needed.
Now on to the other abilities.
Energy resistances: Very nice but remember, the cleric (as well as the favored soul if he wants to) automatically has that area strong anyway since there are more than 1 clerical spells that provide massive energy absorption. The spell being cast is also more dynamic so it can be adjusted for the fight. This is not to say the energy resistances aren’t good, because they are great, but they just aren’t as great for the class style as you would think.
Damage reduction: At level 20? No huge deal. Thats less than 5% of the game unless you play a lot of epic gaming, and its not huge anyway since the majority of things at that level bypass it. And that’s ONLY if you never took ANY prestige classes.
Wings: By that level, if you don’t have access to fly spells or similar anyway, you're an idiot. They are nice, and take the worry out and definitely add points for style, but they don’t BREAK the class at all.
Favored weapon: This is where your choice of deities makes or breaks it. Poor Favored Souls of Wee Jas and Vecna and Boccob. With this a favored soul can become a bit more combat efficient than a cleric, except he doesn’t get heavy armor proficiency. Still, the bonuses are better since that’s 1 feat away. The favored soul can give a fighter a run for its money in combat for a while, except for the fighter gets the advantage of being able to put more focus and stats and his magic items into combat purposes. Still he beats the cleric in straight combat, as long as the deity he has uses a good weapon.
Reflex saves: Advantage, Favored soul. This helps since a cleric/FS usually has a pretty low dex score anyway.
Turn Undead: This little ditty makes clerics feel like gods for a while. Any time you face undead, POW!! Sure the higher level ones are hard to hit, but you still can give undead hordes a real run several times a day. Also, these turn into some nice things when combined with divine metamagic.
Domains: These add some pretty nice abilities, but nothing big, and nothing game breaking. The spells added to the spell lists can be pretty sweet though.
Overall: The cleric excels more in beating up undead and the traditional spellcasting role of a cleric, a healer and affliction curer. In the more untraditional roles as an agent of a deity, such as enhancement junky melee combatants, the favored soul works better.
Honestly, I think a favored soul would make an even better NPC than a playing class. Nothing says BBEG like a walking embodiment of Hextor with a flail ready to bash the brains out of a paladin.
I have a hard time believing that any cleric would not want to take a level of favored soul. You gain (3) special abilities - (spells = vigor, resurgence, comp. language) & +2 to all saves.
In any event, Favored Soul is just an example of the class escalation of power that is common. Each new book tries to out do the earlier book until the game becomes totally out of whack (see 2nd edition / 3rd edition) and a whole new edition is needed to rebalance the game.
Actually, I have *NEVER* seen them actually admit that the Sorcerer is underpowered, which is the crux of the argument for me. The FS beats the Sorcerer out, hands down, no questions asked, but the designers still claim they are both just fine. They're not. Either one is over powered, or one is under powered, they cannot both be fine as written.
And the cleric *IS* a class the designers have repeatedly said that they intentionally made overpowered in an attempt to get somebody to actually play one.
So even though it's weaker than the cleric, the diet coke or margarine of cleric, it's overpowered? Care to explain this please when compared to the class that it's being compared to?
To the guy up there who said human fighters must be human fighters, this is not the game for you if your idea is playing over the 8th character level.
It's hard to me to say it's overpowered, when I see even the clerics overpowered. The sorcerer is not as good as a wizard, but the cleric is not as good as a FS. So, compared to the cleric, a FS is overpowered. Then, the FS is broken.
The warmage is broken also. Take two times the Substitute Energy Type feat (acid and sonic), Sudden Accelerate spell feat, combat caster for you lovers of heavy armor, and a few levels of Elemental Savant and you have a killing machine, all in one book.
First, c'mon, heavy armor is not that good...
"Best" medium armor (breastplate): +5 armor, max dex +3 --> max AC gain = +8.
"Best" heavy armor (full plate): +8 armor, max dex +1 --> max AC gain = +9.
At best it's a tradeoff, at worst the medium armor gimps because you can't afford that 16 Dex.
To the guy up there who said human fighters must be human fighters, this is not the game for you if your idea is playing over the 8th character level.
Ever tried playing a core only fighter? You have very interesting and powerful abilities and feats past level 8... wait, you don't. Just like there is no reason for staying sorcerer past level 6, there is no sane reason for staying fighter past level 4 if you allow splatbooks. If you don't allow splats, congratulation that character is stuck in a suboptimal place forever.
It's hard to me to say it's overpowered, when I see even the clerics overpowered. The sorcerer is not as good as a wizard, but the cleric is not as good as a FS. So, compared to the cleric, a FS is overpowered. Then, the FS is broken.
Favored Soul? Stronger than the cleric?
Three words: Divine Metamagic, nightsticks.
The warmage is broken also. Take two times the Substitute Energy Type feat (acid and sonic), Sudden Accelerate spell feat, combat caster for you lovers of heavy armor, and a few levels of Elemental Savant and you have a killing machine, all in one book.
Ok, you've got your major direct energy damage thingy going. I for my part rather have my foresight running, getting the jump on you by virtue of moment of prescience, use a greater metamagic rod of quicken to drop a dimensional lock on you, and then stick you in a windowless forcecage watching you slowly suffocate to death because thanks to your utterly crippled spell list you have no chance of escaping. Congratulations. And that only if I don't decide to kill/cripple/maim you as I desire thanks to the nearly infinite supply of spells I can choose from. Which reminds me... exactly how many of the new spells from the SpC can your warmage use? ;)
Like any other class in any other 3.5 book that has been released, the Favored Soul is only as good as the player makes it. Proper selection of feats, spells, and skills is always what makes the character good or bad. Every class has its own special thing going for it. Some are easier to spot than others, because some of them have it built into the class. Others you have to pay attention to what it says under feat descriptions or skill checks or even spells. Any of the 20 level classes could be very powerful, it all really boils down to how much attention you're willing to pay to what you're turning your character into.
I have sat down with my group many a time and we have all come to the same conclusion: "No matter how bad ass you think your character is, I bet you I could make another one of the same level equivalent that could eat him for breakfast."
Which all that's really saying is that for all their strengths, each class has a very distinct weakness. You just have to spot it and exploit it from time to time.
Now I'm done. Peace out, homies.
First and foremost, giving up turning is a rough trade, while turning undead is a nice perk, being able to use all those turn-attempt-utilizing feats is a big contributor to the cleric's power and not something you can just write off as a minor sacrifice.
Secondly--wings. What's the huge deal? They're NICE, but you get them around the time when other classes can fly with little difficulty. There are already low LA races out there that offer them (including the +0 LA Raptoran in Races of the Wild) and PRCs that grant them with spell progression (like that rainbow one in Complete Divine) or other strong features for non casting classes.
Thirdly, and by FAR most importantly, what's with the whole, “omg, it's as good as a base class with a PRC!” That's the POINT, we need more base classes that motivate the player to stick with them and less that are essentially 5-level starter classes that get dropped the moment a PRC is available.
Again, I've played them (well, two) and DMed several. They're nice, but certainly not 'stronger' than a Cleric or Druid. In fact IMHO they're weaker. An opinion supported by the prevalence of CoDzilla builds on the CO board and a near complete lack of Favored Souls by people wanting to make 'strong' characters.
Congratulations...Wings=relatively inexpensive magic item, 3rd level spell. Also, it is very hard to conceal your identity. Clerics have access to divine feats, domains (Time stop, anyone?), and heavy armor proficiency, in addition to prepped casting. The FS gets crappy bonus feats and energy resistance (same as Damage Reduction).
The Cleric IS overpowered. It is overpowered intentionally, since it is a necessary class for every party. Moreover, the Cleric is made to be easy and fun to play (spellcaster or frontline smasher, and there is never a wrong spell to pick, since anything can heal). When you have a Cleric who heals the party, turns undead, does some buffing, and beats down when needed, and you have a character that no one cares is the most powerful.
Now, you don't have to look far to see people complaining about the abuses possible with the "selfish Cleric." This Cleric buffs himself to the point that he is more violent that the Fighter or Barbarian. The Favored Soul is likewise susceptible to this bad kind of selfish overpowering.
The Cleric has no choice what to do with dead spells: heal. Thus, utility spells that are not needed will always heal, and that means that help for the party is built in (an anti-selfish mechanism). The FS, however, has to be a bit more selfish in spell choice, since a dead spell is NOT an option in a career long decision.
So, while your FS can likely heal the party (since he would be stupid not to take some healing spells), he will NOT be able to heal every malady that comes down the pipe. Moreover, he is not going to be so quick to toss that Bull's Strength spell to heal you when he might be saving that spell for a Shatter.
"Best" medium armor (breastplate): +5 armor, max dex +3 --> max AC gain = +8.
"Best" heavy armor (full plate): +8 armor, max dex +1 --> max AC gain = +9.
At best it's a tradeoff, at worst the medium armor gimps because you can't afford that 16 Dex.
Nah, "best" Med. Armor is Mithrial Full Plate :P. so when all is said and done, the armor point is moot.
On other points, natural, multi resists > spells cause the resists are never used up, can't really be dismissed and are ALWAYS in effect, so no having to spend spell slots to get ‘em up and running.
The weapon stuff, I'm of the opinion that this is only an issue if you follow/are Favored by a god like Kord, one that gets you a big, beefy weapon.
Wings are hardly an issue considering how late they come into play, though as long as you have yer wings and never having to worry about using your ability to fly IS a nice thing.
Spontaneous Replacement of Clerics: FS adds a new option as a group healer - but not one anywhere near as good as a cleric. While Cure Light Wounds seems like a good choice for a FS spell to know, it eventually stops being worth anything when 1d8 becomes a drop in the bucket for healing, and the FS can't get rid of it. The Cleric can simply not select the spell - and even still spontaneously cast it!
A small point--a Favoured Soul can switch out a spell known at most even numbered levels.
1) It's not overpowered, because CoDzilla is even more overpowered! Rawr!
2) It's overpowered, because it doesn't suck as much as just about the only class in the game that has NO class abilities past 1st level, the Sorcerer and is generally regarded as being *insane* to take over any sort of PrC that advances spellcasting...
Arguing the extremes isn't helping.
The Sorcerer, IMO, desperately needs *anything* past 1st level and is underpowered, making it a poor comparison. Of course the Favored Soul is better than the Sorcerer. About the only core casting class that *doesn't* beat the Sorcerer as levels progress is the Adept.
The Cleric and Druid, IMO, are overpowered, and saying that something *isn't* overpowered because it can't break the game as fast as Divine Metamagics + Nightsticks and Exalted / Dragon / Aberration Wildshape is just absurd.
A small point--a Favoured Soul can switch out a spell known at most even numbered levels.
Yup, they do everything the Sorcerer does (except the familiar), get all good saves and get chocked full of class abilities, and get to cast Miracle essentially at will.
A Cleric can buff, melee, and heal, but a Cleric often can't do it all at the same time. Ultimately, to bring a cleric down to Earth, you've got to overwork the guy, particularly by making him engage in his "core" competency - healing injured party members.
(And this is also why Quickened Divine Metamagic is quite possibly the most important feat a Cleric can have nowadays: It gives the Cleric the ability to cast more spells in a given space of time).
A Favoured Soul is little different. If the Favoured Soul is overworked by being forced to heal her party mates instead of buffing or meleeing, then the Favoured Soul becomes a much more reasonable character to deal with in terms of power level. Moreover, a Favoured Soul will never have access to the Cleric's two spells a turn Quickened trickery, further limiting her power.
On the other hand, I have to say that a Favoured Soul buffing herself could be a versatile fighter, though I wouldn't say she'd be a supreme tank.
In a campaign I play in, my Favoured Soul pretty much never has to worry about healing because we have another dedicated healer who can literally bring a dragon from near death to full health in a couple of turns. Thus, I made my Favoured Soul to be far more melee-oriented, with lots of personal buffing spells. Yet, she still finds it hard to beat "true" tanks (i.e. Knights and Barbarians) in face to face combat, and she's actually most successful when she uses her other offensive spells (i.e. Spiritual Weapon) to delay, disable, and weaken her enemies before finishing them off.
Finally, no other class is given as much rope to hang themselves with as the Favoured Soul, except perhaps the Sorcerer. A poorly selected spell list CAN spell doom for a Favoured Soul and her party - in my case if we ever let the dedicated healer die, we're gonna be screwed since all my FS knows for healing is Cure Light Wounds >_>.
Actually, I have *NEVER* seen them actually admit that the Sorcerer is underpowered, which is the crux of the argument for me. The FS beats the Sorcerer out, hands down, no questions asked, but the designers still claim they are both just fine. They're not. Either one is over powered, or one is under powered, they cannot both be fine as written.
Although I happen to like the favored soul in and of itself, I have to agree with Edy's basic premise here. When compared with each other, one has to conclude that either the sorcerer is underpowered or that the favored soul is overpowered.
Comparing the two classes is, however, like comparing apples and oranges. Although both can be categorized as fruits ("spontaneous casters"), they are of different varieties - pome ("arcane") and citrus ("divine") respectively.
It is my understanding that the game's designers view the divine spell list as being inferior to the arcane spell list and thus they felt the favored soul needed "extras" to compensate.
I also understand that the reason the favored soul inexplicably doesn't have "Knowledge (religion)" as a class skill is so that you won't take any PrCs but will instead take the class all the way to 20th level.
What I can't understand, though, is why favored souls do have "Knowledge (arcana)" as a class skill. Can anyone explain that?
- Jonny
Three words: Divine Metamagic, nightsticks.
You know, arguing that the FB is weaker then the cleric because he has no access to some other broken abilities from a splatbook is not the best course of action. When you do not allow Divine Metamagic (which simply are cheese) the cleric has nothing which makes him more powerful than the FB.
While I do feel that the Favored soul is more of how the sorcerer should've been designed, I still thinks its a bit "over the top."
A few theories to explain the situation:
a) they are overpowered as the OP claims, and players are too modest to play one because they don't want to outshine others
b) they are overpowered as the OP claims, but nobody else saw that yet
c) the flavour is not appealing enough, regardless of power level
d) they are in a too obscure sourcebook, so people never think of playing one
e) the OP based his assessment of the class on a few theoretical assumptions that don't hold in actual game play, i.e. he is wrong
- MAD: Favored Souls require Charisma in order to be effective offensive spellcasters and Dexterity in order to have a competitive Armor Class.
- Loss of key class features: Favored souls do not receive turning attempts, domains, or Knowledge (religion), thus cutting them off at the knees from almost all divine-casting Prestige Classes. As mentioned above, PrCs are the true keys to power in modern 3.5, so this is a major setback. In return Souls get some interesting protective features, but I do not believe that anyone can argue with a straight face that these are as good as every divine PrC that is denied to the class.
- Reduced spell access: the strength of divine casters is in versatility. Whatever ails you, be it poison, disease, curse, negative levels, or whatever, there's a cleric spell for that. Even if it's not memorized at the moment, if you can wait a day, it will be there. If Favored Souls want that same versatility, they have precious few spell slots remaining for themselves.
If you think that after all this, FSs are still better than average, that's fine, but I must ask this -- as the designers have said, clerics were made somewhat overpowered in order to make them more attractive. Why does that argument not still hold for a Favored Soul?
Actually, I have *NEVER* seen them actually admit that the Sorcerer is underpowered, which is the crux of the argument for me. The FS beats the Sorcerer out, hands down, no questions asked, but the designers still claim they are both just fine. They're not. Either one is over powered, or one is under powered, they cannot both be fine as written.
I can't agree with you that the Favored Soul is as overpowered as you make it, for reasons stated elsewhere in this thread. Fair enough to say to each his own. However I agree 100% that the Sorcerer and Favored Soul can not be both considered balanced classes. If either is balanced with the core classes, then the other is a ways off.
Frankly, I'd like to see Sorcerer given something to, one, give it a more distinct flavor that a spontaneous Wizard and, two, bump up its power closer to that of the Favored Soul.
d) they are in a too obscure sourcebook, so people never think of playing one
The one problem with this point is that, since the OP originally started this thread, the Favored Soul was reprinted, unchanged, in Complete Divine. That's far less "obscure" a sourcebook than the Miniatures Handbook.
You know, arguing that the FB is weaker then the cleric because he has no access to some other broken abilities from a splatbook is not the best course of action. When you do not allow Divine Metamagic (which simply are cheese) the cleric has nothing which makes him more powerful than the FB.
But you are invoking Oberoni by saying: "If you ignore material A, B, and C, the cleric is not broken". And I seriously hope that "FB" is a typo and does not refer to frenzied berserker. :P
The cleric is stronger than the favored soul. Alone the fact that the cleric could prepare any clerical spell of appropriate level from any supplement ever published, while the favored soul is stuck with having to cherry-pick, thus being forced to specialize and neglect one aspect of the spell list (healing, damaging, buffing, ...) over another.
Again, if you make a cleric with just the PHb and later introduce the SpC, his power gets a huge boost. If you make a favored soul with the PHb and CDiv, and later introduce the SpC, the power gain is not nearly as huge as for the cleric, because many spells are un-switchable already for the character.
Favored Souls lose three very important key features: undead turning, domains, and Knowledge skills.
They gain one key feature, Weapon Specialization. However, they have a late and limited form of the ability, which does not advance into the Greater version. Qualifying for Weapon Mastery is quite a coup, but it is a trick limited to one form of combat, rather than the spectrum of options provided by spells, metamagic, and other abilities that are unique to casters.
Because of the key features lost by the Favored Soul, almost every advanced accessory option that builds upon divine spellcasting is denied to them. The prestige classes that they can qualify for are few and limited, which consequently limits their ability to multiclass to circumvent those limitations. Turning is mathematically provable as a diminishing value, but as a consequence, the Divine feats are particularly potent.
Because of these limitations, a Favored Soul has very little untapped potential. What you see is largely what you get. They have some pleasant abilities, but what they trade away for a fixed set of bonuses is an overwhelming loss of potential. I highly recommend using the Favored Soul class if you want to see your characters stay within safe and predictable lines.
However I agree 100% that the Sorcerer and Favored Soul can not be both considered balanced classes. If either is balanced with the core classes, then the other is a ways off.
Frankly, I'd like to see Sorcerer given something to, one, give it a more distinct flavor that a spontaneous Wizard and, two, bump up its power closer to that of the Favored Soul.
How can you guys say that the sorcerer needs help? With the content that has been added by the Races of the Dragon book and Dragon Magic book, Sorcerers have a strong showing for the premier arcane caster.
Spells like Arcane spellsurge and PrCs like the Dragonheart mage coupled with the dragonblood subtype (which is dirt easy to get now) have boosted Sorcerers to the level of combat monsters. This idea of sorcerers being the red headed step children of arcane casters is just ridiculous. It is “so 3rd edition” of you.
Starting at level 14, a base sorcerer (using no PrC) can easily throw 3 spells a round (without using time stop), using only spells available (this can be done with any metamagic feat; no quicken is needed) to him in Phb, Phb II, Races of the Dragon, and Dragon Magic. Wake up, smell the freshly printed books off the press and take a new look at sorcerers. You may find a new powerhouse in your midst.
As for the "overpoweredness" of FS...that is all but laughable. Domains and the access to divine metamagic is worth more than any Wp focus/wp spec, wings, and DR ever could be. Their MAD double casting stat requirements for FSs already put them on the iffy list. A Sorcerer would clean house with any Favored Soul. Period.
You know, arguing that the FB is weaker then the cleric because he has no access to some other broken abilities from a splatbook is not the best course of action. When you do not allow Divine Metamagic (which simply are cheese) the cleric has nothing which makes him more powerful than the FB.
Except that the FS is from a splatbook, the same one that gives Divine Metamagic.
How can you guys say that the sorcerer needs help? With the content that has been added by the Races of the Dragon book and Dragon Magic book, Sorcerers have a strong showing for the premier arcane caster.
Spells like Arcane spellsurge and PrCs like the Dragonheart mage coupled with the dragonblood subtype (which is dirt easy to get now) have boosted Sorcerers to the level of combat monsters. This idea of sorcerers being the red headed step children of arcane casters is just ridiculous. It is “so 3rd edition” of you.
Starting at level 14, a base sorcerer (using no PrC) can easily throw 3 spells a round (without using time stop), using only spells available (this can be done with any metamagic feat; no quicken is needed) to him in Phb, Phb II, Races of the Dragon, and Dragon Magic. Wake up, smell the freshly printed books off the press and take a new look at sorcerers. You may find a new powerhouse in your midst.
A handful of books containing feats, spells, and prestige classes might be fine and dandy for giving Sorcerers the boost they needed, only three years after the Phb 3.5 was released, but it didn't do much for the flavor of the character. There may be class descriptions and fluff to define the Sorcerer as more than a spontaneous casting Wizard, but this isn't reflected very well in the mechanics.
To bring the Sorcerer into their own domain, you need to take feats (spending those you'd normally get for character definition) and PrCs. The Favored Soul can hardly be defined as a spontaneous casting Cleric, and they don't need any feats or PrCs to achieve this.
As is, they are able to either A. buff/fight well, B. Heal well, or C. spell damage well with their spells. That’s a huge sacrifice.
to me, favored souls are more of an attempt to get someone to play a cleric style character to do the healing; the PHB II variant actually does this well. This character is fun to play, good for a party, and not nearly as overpowered as a DMing cleric.
A handful of books containing feats, spells, and prestige classes might be fine and dandy for giving Sorcerers the boost they needed, only three years after the Phb 3.5 was released, but it didn't do much for the flavor of the character. There may be class descriptions and fluff to define the Sorcerer as more than a spontaneous casting Wizard, but this isn't reflected very well in the mechanics.
To bring the Sorcerer into their own domain, you need to take feats (spending those you'd normally get for character definition) and PrCs. The Favored Soul can hardly be defined as a spontaneous casting Cleric, and they don't need any feats or PrCs to achieve this.
What feats? To do what I mentioned, you only have to take one metamagic feat and that can be ANY metamagic feat. Casting three spells per round is the results of Arcane fusion and Arcane spell surge which are spells. I just don't see how you can comment that sorcerers don't have flavor. They are arcane users who are born able to wield magic inherently rather than studying it. This is reflected in the spontaneous casting. Now, these are flavor issues, not mechanics issues. If you have a problem with mechanics, that is another issue.
Other than upgrading a Sorcerer from a d4 to a d6 and maybe tweaking their skill selection, I don't see what more could be done. The only mechanical things I could see done are:
1) granting them some of the "Sudden " feats as bonus feats as they level and,
2) granting them some of the heritage feats (Fey, fiendish, celestial, draconic) to reflect the source of their magic.
Both of these abilities could be reflected by simply giving sorcerers bonus feats at either 1/4/8/12/16/20 or 1/5/10/15/20 and allowing them so select either a "sudden " or heritage feat.
Mechanically, I think sorcerers reflect their flavor and I think these mechanics are competitive with the other arcane casters.
Declaring the favored soul as broken is laughable at best.
So then you admit that the Sorcerer is underpowered? As that is the point. WotC claims that both of them are balanced, and since the Sorcerer is core, it has to be considered the standard. The FS and the Sorc are obviously not balanced against each other. Either the Sorcerer is balanced and the FS is broken (overpowered), or the FS is balanced and the Sorcerer is broken (underpowered). Take your pick, but it can't be both.
The fact that they can't repick spells after resting is a really, really big deal. Lack of Remove Disease, Remove Curse, Restoration and the like is a serious detriment. If an FS chooses to take those kinds of spells then he becomes noticeably weaker and pigeonholed. This weakness is huge in my campaign because the characters don't usually have easy access to those types of spells.
The loss of Turn Undead is huge. MAD is pretty big in the 28 point buy games I play in. Losing Ye Old Magic Shoppe results in MAD being a more serious issue as players can't spot correct deficiencies.
The advantage of more spells per day is minimized in my own campaign, because the number of encounters per day fluctuates radically depending on the story. However, it tends to be less than 4.
All armor you say? Well maybe in the MH, wouldn't know since don't own it. But in CD the CURRENT version it gets light and medium armor, but no heavy armor.
Skills: No knowledge Religion or Planes, preventing the class from being able to consider most divine PrCs before level 13, meaning they won't see the 10th level abilities of those PrCs till EPIC.
NO TURN UNDEAD. This means no divine metamagic feats, which has generated a lot of the "cleric are overpowered" feelings. Also this keeps the favored soul out from even more PrCs since most of the good ones will require turn undead.
NO DOMAINS. The favored soul's spells known list makes up for the domain spells since a equal level cleric compared to a Favored soul would have about the same number of spells per day and potentially the same number of spells known (looking at the highest level spells when gained). Some of the favored soul’s abilities are similar to domain powers, but the favored soul doesn't get the powers of two domains at level one.
Get the ability to fly at level 17. Most people won't see the flying ability and to claim it’s overpowered at 17 is a joke. Wizards get the fly spell at level 5. At level 17 flying is old school. Heck there is a race that gets the ability to fly at 6 HD with limited duration and at will at 10 HD. Plus there are few feat chains that grant dragonblooded, and some planetouched, the ability to fly after two feats. Even cleric can walk on air by level 7.
Energy resistance, 10 to three different energies by level 15. 10-energy resistance. So the Favored soul gets a class ability that mimics a level 2 spell. It’s not going to make or break the game. Might annoy a flaming sword wielding BBEG but that’s it. Cuts a little damage from AoEs, but doesn't make them immune.
Damage reduction at level 20. How many favored souls will see this? Double the barbarians DR you say? Well the DR can be by-passed after all. By the time the favored soul gets it the monsters SHOULD have special material weapons now and then. The barbarian's DR can't be bypassed and by level 20 could have prevented thousands of points of damage.
Saves: One of the few things that sets it apart from other classes and makes up for the fact the class is weak, helping to make it pretty balanced compared to other classes. Since clerics have no reason to go strait cleric, they'll most likely have higher Fort and Will saves for going into a PrC that grants that +2 bonus at level one instead of +1/2 to saves.
Spells. The favored soul requires Charisma and Wisdom for spell casting. One is for DCs and the other is for spells per day and required ability score. What was WotC smoking when they decided this? There is no reason for requiring a class to need two mental stats for spells, it is flat out unneeded. Combined with the fact that spontaneous magic system has been generally agreed to be weaker then the preparing magic system the use of two ability scores is just an insult and proof that WotC has no clue how to balance the classes.
Also complaining that the favored soul get too many spells known as a spontaneous caster requires assuming that spontaneous magic system is balanced to begin with, which I've yet to see anyone prove. If you have a problem with the sorcerer's spells known I advise making a thread about the sorcerer. You may even get more support on your behalf. The extra spells known make up for the lack of domains and the spells known they would have given the favored soul.
Bonus feats: At level 3 and level 12. Really overpowered? Actually this is a decent class feature that makes up for the lost domains powers.
Conclusion: Next time do more research on the favored soul. The only people I've seen that have claimed its overpowered have been people that just look a class over without actually testing it. High level abilities that mimic low level spells are not over powered, or else the monk would be a god, but the ultimate achievement of its abilities have been fooling people into thinking the class is better then it really is.
The abilities are made up for the fact a favored soul won't be multicasting into most divine PrCs. You failed to take that into account. If a Sorcerer goes into a PrC it has only the loss of familiar benefits as an opportunity cost. A favored soul has few choices of PrCs and loses future benefits of the favored soul class if it goes into a PrC. It gains the PrCs benefits at the cost of its own.
The cleric gets all its class abilities at level 1 compared to the favored soul getting them over the course of 20 levels. Heck the favored soul doesn't get any class abilities till level 3. That means starting at level one and progressing through all 20 levels a favored soul would have used their abilities fewer times in addition to having to wait. Delaying an ability makes it less valuable in the whole picture. So that the favored soul gets more class abilities to make up for the fact you have to wait for them.
Don't throw another class under the wagon when your real beef is about the apparent weaknesses of other classes. When you have a problem with your favorite class being weak talk about THAT class don't go on a witch hunt claiming those classes are overpowered because your favorite class got robbed.
The only thing you'll achieve is fooling naive and inexperienced DMs into thinking the class is overpowered compared to other classes when it is in fact not. Everything you have complained about others have complained about and almost every case the person complaining about it has no real experience with the favored soul other then looking at the book. And if looking at something on paper was enough to determine if something was balanced or not then the game would be a lot better then it currently is.
You have every right to not allow a class in your game. I only allow 16 classes myself. I don't allow the other classes because their overpowered, but because their unneeded. I allow in enough to make sure each role has at least 3 classes that can fill that role, and to fill in missing flavor gaps (such as an Anti-paladin base class). As a DM I can control the power of a class. I can take away what is overpowered, add what is needed, and forbid that which is broken. You should try it sometime instead of over reacting to something you know little about.
The favored soul as written is one of the more balanced spellcasting classes in the game. Other Spellcasters lose little or nothing going into PrCs except for maybe a cut in spellcasting level depending on the prc, but even then there are enough full spellcasting PrCs out there that most can avoid it. The favored soul can’t abuse divine feats nor does it get all its class abilities at level one and go “So how soon can I take a PrC?” If you refuse to accept the fact the favored soul is not as overpowered as you believe that is also okay since there are plenty of people out there that refuse to accept their predetermined opinions are wrong too.
I once thought the favored soul was overpowered for every reason you mentioned above, but I decided to play it once and realized I was wrong in almost every single case.
Yeah, I'm still here, and yes, I still consider the Favored Soul to be broken and no, I still do not allow it in my games.
Edy,
I am a bit surprised to see you still taking this stance, after almost 4 years, and tons of playing by the player base, I really never see anyone complaining about the power of the Favored soul, it appears, that is was just a lot of hoopla when it 1st came out, but it never manifested into the complete game breaking monster some people thought it would be.
It just seems clear to me now, and especially after playing one at a few cons, and wishing I was playing a cleric instead, that the favored soul just isn't that great.
You try to compare it to the sorcerer, and I feel that is a poor comparison, since they use vastly different spell lists.
BTW, I am a person that also feels that the sorcerer is underpowered, and have houseruled some flavorful abilities into it, but only when compared to a wizard, I don't compare sorcerer to FS or to wilder for that matter.
Well, sure the FS might edge out the Sorc. But the Sorc is just about the weakest pure spellcasting class. Note that weakest pure spellcasting . It still (at the higher levels mind you) beats out nigh every warrior class.
But the FS is weaker than the cleric, and that has been shown in IRL game after game after game. The lack of Domains and the lack of Turning dooms it. Wings? Do not make me laugh- if you can not get flight by that level, you are playing in a very very low magic game indeed.
Now sure- in a 20th level, one on on arena battle, where the cleric player gets full knowledge of what the opponent is going to be so he can match the right spells, the right domains, and the right self-buff to the opponent- and where the cleric does not have to worry about healing the rest of his party, nor about any battles after, so he can use ALL of his Turns in Divine Metamagic to self-buff, and he gets unlimited time to do so- then darn right, the cleric is one of the most powerful classes in the game. That's nice. So- how many IRL D&D games have we playing in that are "a 20th level, one on one arena battle, where the cleric player gets full knowledge of what the opponent is going to be so he can match the right spells, the right domains, and the right self-buff to the opponent- and where the cleric does not have to worry about healing the rest of his party, nor about any battles after, so he can use ALL of his Turns in Divine Metamagic to self-buff, and he gets unlimited time to do so"?
Not in any game I have seen. In fact, thread after thread in "What's a DM to Do" bemoans that many DMs have a hard time getting anyONE to play a "CoDzilla".
And, that is because in IRL table-top gaming, the Divine caster is stuck mainly in "heal-bot" role, which is not fun at all.So, many DMs have a problem getting players to do a cleric- and thus getting anyone to play a weaker divine caster is going to be darn hard. The FS is very rare, thus.
I suspect by now the OP knows- along with any other experienced player- the poor FS does not need a nerfing, and we can let this thread die.
OK?
The advantage of spontaneous casting is that you can throw way more spells at a problem and don’t have to choose ahead of time, while this is great for a sorcerer as 15 fireballs per day can solve many problems. There are so very very many divine spells that just are not needed to be cast every day, let alone every combat.
Its no skin off the back of a cleric to prepare something like death ward or revivfy or dimensional anchor or word of recall all very useful but rarely will you need 6 of these per day. If it comes down to it the cleric can swap out the non-useful spells for healing.
A favoured soul on the other hand wants to select spells that it will want to cast every single combat or at least every day. A sorcerer needs to do the same, but arcane spells are much more focused on hurting the enemy then divine spells are, meaning spell selection is not an issue.
Also stemming from this is the limits placed on item crafting. By default a cleric has access to every spell on his list, meaning a scroll or wand of any spell is accessible to players with the right feats. This is handy for the same reasons as above. There a many divine spells that are handy in certain circumstances, a favoured soul needs to purchase lots too.
Save DCs (Thanks to no MAD)
Spells Per Day (Thanks to no MAD)
Tanking
PVP (melee or spell battle)
Healing
Summoning/battlefield control
Protection
Utility spells
And he was better at:
Flying all day.
Reflex saves.
And when I was able to take epic feats or PrCs requiring knowledge (Religion) he was unable to do so.
I'd have to say, having thoroughly playtested a party consisting of a druid (without wildshape!), barbarian, cleric, and favored soul for almost 2 years, that the cleric and druid are "better" than favored soul in almost every way.
And there were several occasions when a sorcerer would have been more useful.
As I always say: It's almost impossible to argue which class is strongest when comparing them to each other. The Game isn't built around pvp... It's built around adventuring together in a party. Thus, while some classes are overpowered in PvP, they add little to the party when adventuring.
While I do feel that the Favored soul is more of how the sorcerer should've been designed, I still thinks its a bit "over the top."
Just another small nitpick, as far as I can tell, no one here is arguing "PvP", they're comparing them against each other not in terms of pvp battles but in terms of how they compare in PvE - how they fill their role and do in general adventuring. Which IS a very valid discussion to be having.
FS advantages over the cleric:
1 spell more per day
Better will save
wf at level 3 (if not having war as domain)
ws at level 12
Energy resistance
Dr at high levels
Wings at level 17
Cleric advantages over the FS:
Heavy armor
Can take prestige classes easily
2 domains, meaning domain powers and better spells
Turn undead, both for undead and DMM
Entire cleric spell list
can vary spells for each situation
Lack of DMM, turn undead, and a significantly poorer spell list than a cleric, and almost a complete inability to take prestige classes and divine feats makes the FS pretty much gimped compared to the cleric, especially at high level. Plus the cleric already can spontaneously cast cures, inflicts, or domain spells as class features. In short, the FS is quite gimped.
Yes, the FS doesn't get it until a much later level than the Fighter does, but they get it for free as a class ability, where the Fighter still has to buy it with his feats.
Actually Fighter's do get Weapon Focus or Specialization for free. They just have to choose it instead of say Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, or Point Blank Shot. Basically Fighter's have eleven extra feat choices, the Favored Soul has two extra assigned feats.
Monks have perfect saves, too, by the way.
Lemme 'splain.
If you're playing a Sorcerer to 20 (hell, to 6), then obviously your DM doesn't allow splat books, or you'd be doing something with those levels (via a PrC) instead of just accepting spell and familiar progression like a good little gimpling.
In that circumstance of a Core-Only Campaign, Favoured Soul doesn't even exist, rendering the point moot.
But! Now let's hop over to Bizarro Universe where your DM is a craaaaaayzay lunatic, and trusts Wizards to provide additional content with a roughly constant level of power (:looloo
. The Favoured Soul is allowed! Hide the children! But hark! When the Favoured Soul goes to find an equal-leveled Sorcerer so as to steal his lunch money, he comes up empty. Of course! In *this* universe, Sorcerer is just a prereq-filler, a maximum of five starting levels suffered through on the way to PrCs with abilities roughly commensurate with those of the Favoured Soul. In this universe, the Favoured Soul is balanced, and the Sorcerer doesn't exist.But if, by some cruel violation of the laws of causality, reality, and DM judgment, a Favoured Soul were to cross over into the Core-Only universe? Yeah. He'd kick the Sorcerer's ass.
To sum up: Sure, the Favoured Soul outmatches the Sorcerer. It's a complete class. The five levels of Sorcerer people take are just a penance they pay to get spontaneous casting with their PrCs. When Sorcerer players are allowed to compete by using splatbooks (the realm the Favoured Soul *comes* from), things even out pretty quick.
That's how it looks to me, anyway.
it is a thinly veiled attempt to put an actual god in the campaign under player control.
the Favored Soul is literally an incarnation of god in the party,
This isn't a cleric but a godling.
Either the Favored Soul needs to be nerfed like nothing in the history of the game has ever been nerfed before,
I mean, this thing even makes the Mystic Theurge look like a pussycat!
I was interested in the main post until I got to this stuff. Imho, this is a lot of silly hyperbole. The Favored Soul is a strong class but nothing near what is suggested here. In game experience tells me the class is useful and strong but does not dominate and does not come anywhere close to these characterizations.
First thing you need to know, is that the Favored Soul is essentially the cleric version of a Sorcerer. Some things it shares practically cut and paste from the Sorcerer, such as BAB and spells per day. But that is where the similarities end, and the Favored Soul just starts to beat the Sorcerer like the proverbial red-headed step child.
I love the sorcerer, it’s one of my favorite classes, but I have to admit that its on the lowest part of the power spectrum for spell casting classes. The Favored Soul is about where the sorcerer Should be, in my opinion.
Saves:
This should be one of your first warnings that something is wrong with the Favored Soul. Look at all the classic core class's Saves. You get one high, sometimes two. The Favored Soul has all three saves high. Yes, by 20th level, the FS's saves are +12/+12/+12. Not even any of the other classes in the MH can touch this.
Except of course for Monks... the other class that resembles outsiders. Seriously, you claim in this article that a FS is supposed to be a walking god- I think its supposed to be a person who becomes an outsider due to their close ties with a god. Three good saves isn’t unheard of, and without evasion, that reflex save is only so good in the end.
Proficiencies, Hit Dice, and BAB:
FS gets all the armor and weapon proficiencies of the Cleric, but why? It specifically says that they are outside the normal orders of the churches, so why is it getting the armor and weapon profs taught by these orders? And don't forget the fact that they cast divine spells, so they don't have to worry about spell failure. This isn't too bad though, actually. The cleric has this, and they were trying to make a spontaneous cleric. Same reasoning can go for the fact they get the Cleric's d8 hitdice and BAB. Again, nothing seemingly bad here, but when combined with everything else, its just too much.
D8 HD might even be a bit much. But the weapon and armor proficiencies of the cleric aren’t to bad at all, as you yourself admit. As for the 3/4 BAB, it’s a little powerful for a full spontaneous caster, but how to nerf that without destroying its combat ability? And yes, FS of a wargod should be able to be used as good second line combatants.
Spells:
We've got another big old slice of cheese here.
While the Favored Soul has the same number of spells per day as the Sorcerer, they actually know 17 spells MORE than the sorcerer does, and most of those are high level spells. We're talking 6 spells known of every level but 8th and 9th here people, compared to the Sorcerer knowing 3. Not only is the Favored Soul getting 30% more spells known than the Sorcerer, he's also getting access to Miracle to replicate all the other spells he doesn't know, and can cast it without the penalties a Sorcerer would suffer for Wish and Limited Wish. The Sorcerer must give up the majority of potential spells and really specialize, usually as a walking artillery platform. The Favored Soul doesn't, as their 60 spells know (as opposed to 43 spells known for the Sorcerer) means they pretty much get any spell they want. Did I mention they also get more spells per day than the Sorcerer at lower levels (although the Sorcerer does catch up by the end).
Now supposedly this is supposed to be balanced out by the fact that their casting is tied to two different ability scores, Charisma and Wisdom, but that’s a straw man at best. Spell casting comes from Charisma, while save DCs come from Wisdom. Excuse me while I cry them a river, but by the time they reach a high enough level to actually cast high lvl spells, you can quite easily boost any ability up to a 19 to get access to all of your spells, then never touch that stat again. Any character that can't get Prime ability up to a 19 by lvl 20 probably doesn't deserve to be adventuring anyway.
I do agree that having two casting stats is not a comparable problem compared to number of spells known. I’ve found that the introduction of "Knowstones" Into my campaign has fixed this to some extent, but there should be some official look at it. Either cut back on the FS spells, or give us more sorcerer spells.
Class Abilities:
This is where my biggest gripe is.
I could have swallowed everything above, and seen this as a perfectly well balanced class, that was totally playable. It would be just about identical to the sorcerer with a cleric twist. But they didn't stop there, they piled on the class abilities left and right.
Thank goodness they gave this class some abilities. It really focuses the class and gives it some flavor! I’ve found that a lot of classes, when they lack this... just end up being a little to generic. So what if you have a few select options, at least now those options can distinguish you. Far to many people will play a cleric of any three or four gods as if they were just a Jehovan cleric of blandness and regularity.
Weapon Focus and Specialization: The Favored Soul gets free Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in their Deity's favored weapon. I can almost see this, as they're closer to being a true avatar of their deity than a normal cleric, but weapon specialization? That has been one of the only real advantages a Fighter had over anybody else, and he still didn't get it for free. After how Andy said that the Sorcerer didn't get Diplomacy as a class skill (which the flavor text clearly says it should) because too many other classes already had it, and they wanted to keep the classes distinct, why the heck are they stealing the Fighter's thunder here? Yes, the FS doesn't get it until a much later level than the Fighter does, but they get it for free as a class ability, where the Fighter still has to buy it with his feats.
You’re going to complain about weapon spec? I’m sorry Edymnion, but I really just cant see as a problem in this case. +2 damage with a single weapon just isn’t enough to gripe about. Its nice, its useful, but its not outstanding. Same problem that feat has for the fighter I must add.
As for what Andy says about the sorcerer, *shrugs* I think her perfectly and absolutely wrong, in many ways. A sorcerer should get a few more skills than he has, and 4+ for his skill points to boot. Its not like his INT is high like a wizards
Energy Resistance: Wait a minute, nobody else in the game that I've heard of gets anything remotely like this, especially not as a base class ability! The Favored Soul gets an energy resistance of 10 to any element of their choosing, and by 20th level, they get to pick THREE different elements to apply this to! What the heck is up with this??? There are no drawbacks, no limits, they just get energy resist 10 to half the elements in the game, no questions asked.
Yep, true enough, its kinda odd for a character class. Of course, it isn’t odd at all if you look at this class as a pseudo outsider class. I’d also point out that ER doesn’t stack from different sources, so that is all they get 10 or whatever they pay for like anyone else. It’s nice, it’s useful, but its not cheese. Even combined with the above, it’s not cheesy yet.
Wings: The Favored Soul grows a big pair of freaking mundane wings out of his back, and gets to fly around as a Ex ability at a speed of 60' per round. What? Now I know NOBODY else gets this ability. Closest thing I know of is the Elemental Savant (Air) getting flight of 100' as the capstone ability for the PrC, and the FS is getting it in a base class, and it isn't even the biggest thing they get. Wait a minute, just let me say this again. They grow wings and get to fly around at double their ground speed, with good maneuverability, as a normal class ability, that isn't even their 20th level ability?
At 17nth level. Do you know how easy it is to fly at 17nth level? My god, fly spells last forever at that point, and its only a third level spell. You can get items for it at prices so relatively low at that level you’ll think your buying a sandwich. Useful? Of course, any tool is useful, but overpowered? No, it comes to late in the game to really truly be an issue.
Damage Reduction: Now we're just adding insult to injury. The 3.5 Barbarian gets DR of 5/- at lvl 19. The Favored Soul gets DR of 10/(silver/cold iron depending on alignment). On top of everything else, they get twice the bloody damage reduction of a raging barbarian. Again, I have to ask, WHY???
Actually, there’s a big difference there. DR/- isn’t overcome by anything. I’d say it’s more akin to the Goliath substitution levels that trades 1 point of DR/- for DR2/Adamantine. Is it a bit powerful? Yeah, I’d probably cut it down to 5, but I think it works well for the class. And as a capstone ability, it works pretty well.
Overall:
Compared to the cleric, the Favored Soul loses domains and the ability to turn undead. They gain flight, damage reduction, and more energy resistances than you can shake a stick at. They are better at spontaneous casting than the Sorcerer, better in combat than the cleric, and have better saves than everybody in the game short of a high charisma paladin.
Better in combat than the cleric? I’ve seen so much DMM Cheese floating around about how uber the cleric is in combat, that I’m afraid I can’t see this as an easy or likely option. I’d definitely want to see some numbers before accepting that claim.
Better spontaneous caster than the sorcerer? Yes, of course, and that only highlights the sorcerer need to be improved in that area.
And once again, don’t forget the monk.
As I've been writing this, I've come to a realization.
The Favored Soul is not supposed to be a spontaneous cleric, it is a thinly veiled attempt to put an actual god in the campaign under player control. I mean, look at what its got. The FS has a favored weapon, resistances to both magical and physical attacks, the ability to fly at will, is great at making any save, has the third highest hitdice in the game, second highest BAB in the game, and can all around mop the floor single handedly with anything he runs up against.
As can a high level cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard, or heck, even about half my fighter builds can take any monster style challenge. And Stop throwing around third highest this and second highest that- there’s a lot of classes "tied" in that position.
The Sorcerer remains the mistreated underdog of the game, while the Favored Soul is literally an incarnation of god in the party, and these two are balanced with each other how? This class is not only pure munchkin cheese, but gets so many abilities that make absolutely no sense until you realize this isn't a cleric but a godling.
Then lets improve the sorcerer instead of flogging the FS for its problems. Why punish the one that got it right instead of point to it and saying "see what you COULD do?"
I want an errata.
Either the Favored Soul needs to be nerfed like nothing in the history of the game has ever been nerfed before, or the Sorcerer needs to be boosted up to the same level. I mean, I've got no problems saying that the Sorcerer's save DCs should be tied to Intelligence. Least then they'd get the skillpoints they deserve.
I mean, this thing even makes the Mystic Theurge look like a pussycat!
No, sorcerer need to improved. Give them FS spells known, Eschew materials as a bonus feat, and a heritage feat or metamagic feat every five levels. That should balance everything up pretty well, but if you really think that isn’t even enough, give em 4+ skills a level and call it good man.
The favored soul isn’t the problem here, the sorcerer is.
2.)Favored Souls do not gain heavy armor proficiency, you are mistaken in believing that they get all the clerics abilities and then some. Many people have stayed they'd prefer to have domains and turning over energy resistance and weapon focus/specialization. Not only that but you mention that their bab and spells per day was a copy and paste of the sorcerer which it obviously isnt as they have medium BAB.
3.) Yes, apparently you have visited one or two threads that showed or discussed the similarities of the Favored Soul to Angels/Devils. However instead of taking that and then rationalizing that with game mechanics in which WotC tried to apply to the Favored Soul without giving the obvious benefits of such a class you rather sit and criticize and complain that it doesn’t meet your subpar understanding of what is and isn’t balanced in comparison between a divine and a arcane spellcaster. Let alone old and as oppose to new. If anything this is so narrow minded it boggles the mind why you wouldn’t call everything outside of the players handbook broken.
4.) Let's look at these abilities the FS gets. 3 Energy resistances all which cap at 10. DR which it obtains at 20th lv, wings which it gains at 17th lv and two weapon specific feats at 3rd and 12th lv? While the premise of having 3 forms of energy resistance might sound overly good when you compare it to the fact that by the time you gain all three of them the potential damage from either type of energy is well over 10. The Wings, at 17th there is no such thing as aerial advantages, enemies should more than likely be capable of a similar ability if not have a effective counter measure for it, and Considering that with the Right Domain a Cleric can cast fly sooner, i feel to see how having wings is advantageous outside of being in a antimagic field. (Like to many mages and clerics willingly walk into those.) The DR is honestly the only ability that’s really awesome however the downside of it is that you don't get it until 20th lv.
Let me point out that the supposedly rule you are claiming WotC had when they made the sorcerer was broken the minute they published 3.0 because in the very same Book you had the 2nd spontaneous caster the BARD who had huge skill points/skill list, component spellcasting up to 6th lv spells which included healing magic as well as various other magic spells from both divine and arcane sources and of course medium BAB 2 good saves, and a butt load of class features that all revolved around music aptitude. Yeah strong argument you bring up here.
The Favored Soul is probably one of the most underestimated 20 lv classes out there, that people either seem to hate because they perceive it as two powerful or because they perceive it as to weak because of its possibly dual stat spellcasting requirement. It isn’t a cleric, it can't cast flamestrike as easily or as effectively as a cleric can, therefore 9/10 Favored Souls don't even have many if any offensive spells. Limiting themselves to a spell-list which reads pretty much like most bards in that they have many utility spells but not many offensive ones.
Outside of new material published in Dragon Magic the options for the FS have been very limited as is and its power is entirely based on the optimizing skill of the player, unlike a Cleric who with many prestige class and feat options is mechanically the most powerful class in the game, yet you sit and compare it to the sorcerer when its in fact you should be comparing it to the cleric along the same lines as how wizard is compared to sorcerer.
However, it does seem a little bit over powered from what I'm reading. But classes aren't really that well balanced in general anyhow, and that's a whole other can of worms that I'm sure has been opened many times.
Honestly though, game balance has never been the most important thing to me, that a class or race has abilities appropriate for its concept is more important to me (though Wizards does seem to try pretty hard to make sure things are balanced, and more often than not come short of doing so). I've played many games in which one character type is simply more powerful than another (at least when it comes to combat situations anyhow), and it's never really bothered me so long as the reasons for it are appropriate concept wise, and not just so players can totally munchkin out (though I suppose that style of game play has its place). So it doesn't bother me too much if one class is a bit more powerful than another.
So then you admit that the Sorcerer is underpowered? As that is the point. WotC claims that both of them are balanced, and since the Sorcerer is core, it has to be considered the standard. The FS and the Sorc are obviously not balanced against each other. Either the Sorcerer is balanced and the FS is broken (overpowered), or the FS is balanced and the Sorcerer is broken (underpowered). Take your pick, but it can't be both.
Some would say that it can be. Having a limited selection or arcane spells is not considered as restrictive as having a limited selection of divine spells. To wit:
The fact that they can't repick spells after resting is a really, really big deal. Lack of Remove Disease, Remove Curse, Restoration and the like is a serious detriment. If an FS chooses to take those kinds of spells then he becomes noticeably weaker and pigeonholed.
Or, from a more authoritative source:
Metagame Analysis: Spontaneous Casting
This option trades versatility—one of the divine spellcaster's strengths—for sheer spellcasting power (much like the difference between sorcerers and wizards). Since the cleric and druid spell lists depend on versatility of effect, particularly defensive or utilitarian spells the spontaneous-casting divine caster is allowed to know more spells per spell level than the sorcerer (by adding domain spells or summon nature's ally spells on the list of spells known). No longer is the divine caster the character who can come up with any effect under the sun; instead, he becomes a much more specialized member of the adventuring group.
Personally, I think both the sorcerer and favored soul are underpowered in respect to their preparing counterparts.
So then you admit that the Sorcerer is underpowered? As that is the point. WotC claims that both of them are balanced, and since the Sorcerer is core, it has to be considered the standard. The FS and the Sorc are obviously not balanced against each other. Either the Sorcerer is balanced and the FS is broken (overpowered), or the FS is balanced and the Sorcerer is broken (underpowered). Take your pick, but it can't be both.
I thought both classes were underpowered in the whole picture. WotC has proven time after time that they are unable to balance the classes in the game. First off what was considered balanced has changed over time. Second with 50+ base classes now, balancing them is going to be a near impossibility.
WotC rarely admits the core classes are unbalanced even when they realize as much. The problem shouldn't be comparing sorcerer to favored soul because you'll just get favored soul envy. The problem is the whole system of spontaneous magic is a joke. It could of replaced the whole magic system as it used to be if they did it right. But they did a hack-job on the whole thing since they didn't want it to replace the older versions. The result is two systems of magic that are not equal. Spontaneous magic could of be an end-all if they gave it the ability to switch spells out for new spells at a greater rate then every other level.
If you're playing a Sorcerer to 20 (hell, to 6), then obviously your DM doesn't allow splat books, or you'd be doing something with those levels (via a PrC) instead of just accepting spell and familiar progression like a good little gimpling.
Just to interject and make a very valid point. For many players out there (read: non-Munchkins), D&D absolutely isn't a game of just numbers and which combinations of PrCs are the best.
It's about stories and fun and roleplaying a fun character, no matter how "gimped" you think it is. I think it's a ridiculous assertion to say that only noobs play a Sorcerer because it's so simple that's all they can handle.
My wife is brand new to D&D and she plays with so called "weak" classes and regularly mops the floor with the monsters our DM produces. Why? Because she plays the game for fun and does her best. That's what matters, not your opinion on what people should do upon reaching a certain level of proficiency with the game.
Just to interject and make a very valid point. For many players out there (read: non-Munchkins), D&D absolutely isn't a game of just numbers and which combinations of PrCs are the best.
It's about stories and fun and roleplaying a fun character, no matter how "gimped" you think it is. I think it's a ridiculous assertion to say that only noobs play a Sorcerer because it's so simple that's all they can handle.
It's a discussion on class power and balance. Should I have addressed the fluff and roleplayability of the Favoured Soul? Of Sorcerers? Gimme a break, and get the chip off of your shoulder.
I never called anyone a noob. I never equated the playing of a weaker class with any level of player experience. I simply said, in a discussion of class balance and power, that nobody would play a Sorc to 20 if they had better options. Obviously, this is excluding purists who think multiclassing into PrCs somehow degrades their roleplaying experience.
It's called the Stormwind Fallacy. Look it up.
I do also think that the loss of heavy armor is a really bad thing, there is no way of getting this back beside of losing a caster level or a feat.
Does anyone, and I do mean *anyone* wear anything heavier than a mithral shirt? I play Clerics almost exclusively, and I've *never* had (or seen from other players) one in medium or heavy armor, with the exception of 'sea elven scale' back in 2nd Ed. A couple points of AC I can easily replace with a spell, magic item or PrC ability means nothing if I can't get to the wounded / fray with my gimpy 20' movement rate.
I don't even go for the mithral breastplate option, since I see no reason to waste the cash on a measly +1 AC, when it can go into something much more useful.
I'd ditch the high Reflex save, the wings and the weapon specialization. Other than that, I think it's fine. It's basically a spontaneous Cleric that swaps Turn and Domains for Energy Resistance. It's got more 'free toys' than a Sorcerer, but it's not balanced against the Sorcerer, it's balanced against the Cleric, which has more 'free toys' than a Wizard.
The Sorcerer, OTOH, could use a little something. I like the idea of giving them the Wizard bonus feats every five levels, but allowing them to be Heritage feats.
Does anyone, and I do mean *anyone* wear anything heavier than a mithral shirt? I play Clerics almost exclusively, and I've *never* had (or seen from other players) one in medium or heavy armor, with the exception of 'sea elven scale' back in 2nd Ed. A couple points of AC I can easily replace with a spell, magic item or PrC ability means nothing if I can't get to the wounded / fray with my gimpy 20' movement rate.
I don't even go for the mithral breastplate option, since I see no reason to waste the cash on a measly +1 AC, when it can go into something much more useful.
I'd ditch the high Reflex save, the wings and the weapon specialization. Other than that, I think it's fine. It's basically a spontaneous Cleric that swaps Turn and Domains for Energy Resistance. It's got more 'free toys' than a Sorcerer, but it's not balanced against the Sorcerer, it's balanced against the Cleric, which has more 'free toys' than a Wizard.
The Sorcerer, OTOH, could use a little something. I like the idea of giving them the Wizard bonus feats every five levels, but allowing them to be Heritage feats.
1.) It's 3 points of AC THAT YOU ARE NOT REPLACING WITH A SPELL. You see there is no spell that just makes up for a 3 point difference between Fullplate and Breastplate or let me be more pointed, Magic Vestment only adds a Enhancement bonus, and all the other AC buffing spells are usually of a specific type, but it doesn’t change your armor from breastplate to full plate.
2.) Yes, yes I know quiet a few people who wear fullplate again its a +8 to AC and for a cleric to be able to wear it means she gets twice the AC bonus a wizard does from his best AC Spell. This means the Clerics AC is very good for get go if they are wearing this armor. Now add in the fact they can use Shields as well, and have a good assortment of AC buffing spells, Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, ect and yes you'll quickly notice that the +3 from fullplate over breastplate is very noticeable. Is fullplate the best thing in the world, no if you have more than a +12 dex but most clerics don't care to have a +14 dex and up because they know they have the option of wearing good armor and spells to beef up their AC.
Even if a Cleric didn’t want to wear fullplate there is a new option out there in dragon magic that is only for people whose classes naturally give them proficiency with heavy armor, its basically you grow scaly armor for free out of your skin and by 20th lv you have a +12 to AC and Resistance 20 to all elemental forms of attacks excluding sonic I believe. How many other 9th lv spell slinging spellcasters gain use this option? None other than the cleric. Not to mention you're obviously gimping the option of fullplate since, you know you can make it out of mithril just like that shirt you favor, which would allow you to move at your normal speed but not use the run option.
Right and you would ditch the features of the class because you much rather it be a gimped spontaneous casting cleric as oppose to a full fledge class of its own account, right that makes so much more sense, wait IS THAT the very same reason people hated the Sorcerer when it was originally created, a feat-less spontaneous casting clone of wizards. Listen, anyone who HAS DMed a favored soul or played one from 1st-20th lv really needs to stop trying to make suggestions for a class that is neither overpowered or underpowered.
Does anyone, and I do mean *anyone* wear anything heavier than a mithral shirt? I play Clerics almost exclusively, and I've *never* had (or seen from other players) one in medium or heavy armor, with the exception of 'sea elven scale' back in 2nd Ed.
To answer your slightly tangental question - yes. With one exception (who died early in his career) every cleric I have played or NPC'd wears full plate (in battle anyway - settled clerics have a chain shirt for normal duties and full plate for war). My fighters also take full plate ASAP.
Its not just me being weird either. I'm currently running a game containing a cleric and a paladin in full plate (now mithril, but they sprent several levels in normal full plate before they could afford mithril). My past games have involved full-plated clerics far more often than light-armoured clerics (although breastplates have proven popular, both normal and mithril), and any fighter not based on dexterity has also been full-plated as soon as resources allow.
A couple points of AC I can easily replace with a spell, magic item or PrC ability means nothing if I can't get to the wounded / fray with my gimpy 20' movement rate.
That would be four points (full plate +8, chain shirt +4) for 1400 gold. Far more cost effective than getting it from rings, enchantments, amulets and other things. Bear in mind my cleric can cast the same spells yours can cast and end up 4 points ahead at the end.
Low speed is generally not an issue in dungeon-type games. You start the encounter right behind your friends, and at most lose out on a single round spent catching up. Usually (rooms less than 40 foot deep, enemies who want to melee with you, or places where you can't melee anyway so everyone uses ranged) you don't even lose that. If there are dwarves, halflings or gnomes in your party, you aren't the only one with the speed issue anyhow (and they aren't getting a big AC out of being slow). If you are outside - try horses!
Alternatively, try using the money you save on expensive AC boosts to get boots of striding and springing. Oh look, 30 foot movement rate! (if you want x4 run too, try being a dwarf) Or get reach spell, or use flame strike/deific vengeance when you can't get into the fray. Spell compendium has some ranged healing in it, also (and all the mass cures are ranged).
I won't even get into mithril full plate (my favourite armor), because the thread is about the favoured soul and that one is a trick a favoured soul can use as easily as a cleric, so is irrelevant to the topic.
The point is that at low level 4 points more AC can save your life far more often than a slower speed fails to save someone else’s, and at high levels there are many ways to overcome the speed issue (the aforesaid boots costing a mere 5,500, cheaper than any magic item combo I can think of which will raises your chain shirt AC by 4 points (you could cast magic vestment, but so can full plate guy).
So anyway, your experience is certainly not typical if mine is anything to go by, and my rationale above suggests that isn't because me and all my players are fools. Full plate is an optimal choice for clerics, as indeed it is for any fighter with dex 12 or less. (I've even seen a rogue-fighter wearing full plate, but that was an exceptional set of circumstances).
Favored soul gets more spells known then a sorcerer, but has to devote several of his spells known to healing, and draws from an inferior spell list (Wizard list > Cleric list). He knows far, far fewer spells then a Cleric, who knows his entire list, and thus the balance of Wizard -> Sorcerer = Cleric -> Favored Soul is balanced in this regard. And remember that the Favored Soul also suffers the bane of the sorcerer's existence: delayed spell level progression.
The Favored Soul lacks the traits that make a cleric overpowered: Turn/Rebuke (for ridiculous divine feats a la Divine Metamagic), Domains (not for the mildly useful domain powers, but for access to several of the most powerful Wizard spells), & full spell list access (making every new splatbook with cleric spells that your DM allows an outright and automatic power boost).
Also, the cleric only needs two good abilities (Con & Wis), while the Favored Soul needs four (Dex, Con, Wis, and Cha). By burning a feat, the Favored Soul can drop that back to three, but then he's down a feat.
These together are major marks against the Favored Soul, by comparison to Clerics. In his favor, the Favored Soul gets all good saves (although, due to MADness, only reflex is likely to actually be much higher then a cleric), and some all-the-time energy resistance. This is a nice trade, and cushions the blow from losing all the cleric boosts. However, you’re still less powerful then a cleric. None of that is equal to Divine Feats, high level wizard spells, or access to your full spell list, however, nor does it make up for the multiple ability dependency.
What's that, you say? The Favored Soul also has weapon focus, weapon specialization, wings, and damage reduction? Those are all fluff abilities, and don't matter. Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization aren't good for the fighter, who can choose any weapon he wants, rather then being restricted to a deities favored weapon. With the new Melee Weapon Mastery feat they become somewhat better, as the Favored Soul can burn a feat after getting Specialization to net +2 to hit and +4 to damage with their favored weapon, with is almost a big enough boost to matter, although a cleric can have better boosts active all day with divine metamagic persist. And even so, Melee Weapon Mastery is only worth it's feat slot, not more then that. So what Favored Souls are really getting from these feats is the chance at an equivalent exchange. It's not a real powerup, and in the end is just a fluff ability to encourage favored weapon use.
Next up is Wings. You get these at, what, 17th level? Anyone who wants to fly is flying by 17th level. If you can't just cast it for a full day like a cleric or wizard or sorcerer, or have access to a flying mount, then you can easily afford boots or capes of flying or what have you. If you wanted to fly, you could have easily been flying all the time from like 10th level on, no matter what class you are. Abusable? I don't see how. An actual boost to power? Not at all. A fluffy addition for a character that is more or less turning into an angel, devil, or demon? Sure. It's a fluff ability, and I don't begrudge it.
Finally, damage reduction. Yes, it's more then that of a Barbarian, but it's also easily surpassable, while a barbarian's is not surpassable. And you get it at level 20, when the game is basically over. It's basically the last bit of your fluff transformation into an angel or demon, and doesn't have any significance in game (since it doesn't come until the game is over, and is easily bypassed at that level). So it's just a fluff ability.
So in the end, a favored soul is a Cleric who trades full spell list access, access to powerful wizard spells, and the ability to take Divine feats including Divine Metamagic for a better reflex save, some decent energy resistance, some fluff abilities, with delayed spell level progression and a heaping bowl of madness to destroy any semblance of balance remaining.
As a practical matter: Replacing Cleric with Favored Soul entirely is a good way to slightly de-power divine casting in your campaigns. Only slightly, a Favored Soul is still a full caster, and thus one of the most powerful classes in the game (right up there with sorcerer and Spirit Shaman), but a mild nerf is still a nerf.
Invocations that let you fly for 24 hours at speed equal to land with good maneuverability at level six. So can the humble Warlock, when I think about it.
Dragonfire Adepts can also get energy resistance at the same level, and you choose the energy type daily, which is much cooler. Pious Templar gets Deity Weapon Spec at 3rd, which could give it to an 8th level character, and they scoop up Damage Reduction, Smite, and Mettle along the way...
BEHIND THE CURTAIN: SPONTANEOUS CASTING
This option trades versatility — one of the divine spellcaster's strengths — for sheer spellcasting power (much like the difference between sorcerers and wizards). Since the cleric and druid spell lists depend on versatility of effect, particularly defensive or utilitarian spells the spontaneous-casting divine caster is allowed to know more spells per spell level than the sorcerer (by adding domain spells or summon nature's ally spells on the list of spells known). No longer is the divine caster the character who can come up with any effect under the sun; instead, he becomes a much more specialized member of the adventuring group.
Emphasis mine
This shows us what the Designers were and are thinking - because the Cleric relies more on versatility, a spontaneous casting version would receive more spells known than a Sorcerer.
The Favored Soul is not pure Swiss as the OP puts it. The class is underpowered in the extreme and is often relegated, at least in my experience, to a Self Buffing Tank than an Ultra Powerful Can-Do-Anything Role like the Cleric typically takes.
Their reaction to any new class is -it is overpowered! As DMs they tend to ban all PrCs. The fact that even utter nerfs such as the Mystic Theurge and the Favored Soul can be considered overpowered illustrates the point harshly.
That being said, without the Druid and Cleric, the Favored Soul would do fine. Drop the wings though. At the level when the core-only Wizard gets Gate and Shapechange, wings is giving Linus the Favored Soul a rock.
Yes like I said before there is nothing broken about a class whose purpose is to be the back up healer.
I'm not exact sure what you mean Umbral. Why drop the wings?
Wings happen at level 17, when most other full-casters get 9th level spells. By that time, pretty much anyone who wants to fly should be able to. Giving them to the Favored Soul at the same time as the other casters get the BFGs is...pointing out his shortcomings in a not very sensitive way.
"You get Miracle, you get Shapechange, you get Gate...you there, you get something that would have been good at level 6, and everyone has got by now. Well, I'm just pointing out how badly you suck compared to your buddy the Cleric."
Mechanically, if PrCs are available at all, most divine PrCs seem to offer more to the Favored Soul than sticking with his own progression. If he does stay till level 17, he should get something better.
I've always encouraged those who didn't like the fact that the wings or the DR didn't come into play until the end of the class to then space out the benefits of both abilities over the 20 levels until they equal what would have been obtained at the levels in which they originally would have gotten the abilities in full.
Like the DR being obtained 1 point every 2 levels starting at 2nd.
And the wings' flying speed being spread out over the course of 17 levels starting at around 5th lvl.
Challenge #1. Picking spells. A cleric has access to a huge number of spells, but really, a lot of them, while cool, aren't crucial to his role. You have seven major functions to consider. These would be:
- Healing (hit point restoration)
- Healing, part 2 (ability score restoration)
- Healing, Part 3 (Negative condition removal; things like poison, disease, blindness, and the ever-dreaded negative levels)
- Buffing (Usually STR, AC, attack bonuses, and saving throws. Yes, I know there's more, but that's the bulk of it)
- Damage dealing, in this case mostly single-target elimination
- Summoning
- Traditional Combat (As in, smacking things with a melee weapon or shooting them with a ranged weapon)
Let's assume an undead-light campaign, or a player that simply uses his spontaneous casting of cure spells to damage undead creatures rather than grousing over the fact that he has no turning ability.
Furthermore, Instead of trying to go level-by-level, I'm just going to go with a fully-realized level 20 FS. I'm also going to use 32 point buy.
Poster bias note: I tend to both run and play games in a somewhat covert ops-y manner, so you might not agree with some of my spell choices. Rest assured, however, that I am not intentionally shooting myself in the foot at any point during this process. For the purposes of this exercise, I am going to assume that the deity that this character worships has a REALLY good favored weapon: the spiked chain. I am also drawing on my entire library of WotC 3.5 material for this exercise (Most of the material will likely come from PHB, PHBII, BoED, Spell Compendium, and Complete Champion) I am assuming an alignment of NG so I can use BoED spells.
0-level spells known: Summon Holy Symbol, Light, Create Water, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Amanuensis, Mending, Detect Poison, Cure Minor Wounds
Reasoning Notes: Amanuensis is in there in case you need to copy down important ritual phrases, battle plans, or other pertinent information and you're in a hurry. Summon Holy Symbol is in there because one shatter spell ruins a normal divine caster's day by removing their divine focus. The Cure minor wounds spell really should have the name "lesser stabilize" instead in my book, because that's what it's most useful for.
1st-level spells known: Bless, Blade of Blood, Nightshield, Invest light Protection, Nightshield
Reasoning notes: Because our spell selection is so limited, I'm trying to pick spells that have more than one function. I picked Invest Light Protection instead of cure light wounds because, while it cures less in the way of hit points, it grants a point of DR/evil. Nightshield grants a bonus on saves AND stops magic missile spells. Blade of blood is a wickedly-effective combat spell, and bless is one of the workhorse buff spells that I'd never want to be without.
2nd-level spells known: Cloud of knives, Elation, Lesser Restoration, Shatter, Close Wounds, Silence
Reasoning notes: Again, since we're low on choices, I went with spells with more than one use. Shatter is good for denying warriors their weapons and divine caster their foci, Elation is a nice, comprehensive buff that even increases allies' speed, and silence can be used either to plague enemy spellcasters or aid in stealth. Cloud of knives is a nice attack spell, because you can use it either in its normal form or make the knives silvered by using a silver dagger, allowing you to bypass the DR of, among other things, vampires and lycanthropes. Lesser Restoration is a workhorse spell. I picked close wounds over cure moderate wounds because the ability to use it RIGHT NOW is much more useful to a spontaneous caster than one who prepares spells.
3rd-level spells known: Invisibility Purge, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Summon Monster III, Holy Storm, Weapon of the Deity
Reasoning notes: This was a tough level to pick spells for. Removing curses & disease are essential, so I felt I had to get those in there. Summon Monster III is the first level where you really get something useful; a hippogriff, which you can use as a flying mount. Holy storm is an awesome attack spell, and weapon of the deity isn't bad either. Invisibility purge is something you just DON'T want to be caught without. I didn't pick up a hit point restorer this levels because we already have two.
4th-level spells known: Divine Power, Spell Vulnerability, Neutralize Poison, Freedom of Movement, Restoration, Tongues
Reasoning notes: Again, no cure spell, but we now can talk with anyone, remove negative levels, stop poison, lower spell resistance, and one of the best combat buffs in the game. Nothing exciting in this spell level, but lots of good, utilitarian magic.
5th-level spells known: Invest Heavy Protection, Revivify, Scrying, True Seeing, Flame Strike, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Reasoning notes: Revivify is a better choice than raise dead for a spontaneous caster played by a smart and conscientious player. Just make sure you have those diamonds on hand. I'd recommend wearing a nonmagical pendant with 1000gp worth of diamonds in it. Invest heavy protection is in there for a defense buff and for healing a larger amount of hit points, scrying, true seeing, and flame strike are workhorses, and righteous wrath is a nice group combat buff.
6th-level spells known: Heal, Harm, Greater Dispel Magic, Vigorous Circle, Spiritual Guardian, Undeath to Death
Reasoning notes: The best single-target heal, one of the best single-target attack spells, greater dispel, a solid group heal, a dual-purpose summoning-type spell, and the means to deal with groups of undead without turning.
7th-level spells known: Righteous Smite, Holy Star, Summon Monster VII, Shield of the Archons, Regenerate, Control Weather
Reasoning notes:Summon monster VII summons an Avoral. Those are REALLY pesky foes, what with being able to fly and cast magic missile at will. Holy Star and Shield of the Archons are dual-purpose spells, regenerate and control weather are workhorse PHB spells, and Righteous smite blows evil stuff to smithereens.
8th-level spells known: Lion's Roar, Antimagic Field, Earthquake, Dimensional Lock, Greater Planar Ally
Reasoning notes:Lion's roar damages enemies and buffs allies at the same time, the rest should be obvious.
9th-level spells known: Gate, Miracle, Mass Heal, True Resurrection
Reasoning notes: Should be obvious
Challenge #2: Race and point buy. Since we're a little behind the cleric already, I dispensed with the usual human and went straight for the lesser aasimar. The bonus to our paired casting stats will be a boon here, and it works thematically as well.
Race: lesser aasimar
ability scores, pre-racial adjustments:
STR 12 [4] DEX 10 [2] CON 10 [2] INT 12 [4] WIS 16 [10] CHA 16 [10]
After: STR 12 DEX 10 CON 10 INT 12 WIS 18 CHA 18
Challenge #3: Picking feats. With no undead turning, feat selection gets a little tougher. Here's what I came up with:
Feat progression (lots of reserve feats. Reserve feats work well with spontaneous casters):
1: Nymph's Kiss (we need the skill points, and the other bonuses are also nice.)
3: Zen Archery (Being able to use wisdom to make ranged attacks? Not too shabby. Good for some of those ranged spells that require attack rolls, too.)
6: Touch of Healing (We're low on cure spells; this'll keep us from blazing through spell slots too fast.)
9: Augment Healing (Since we chose some less-potent but more-versatile healing spells, this helps close the gap)
12: Summon Elemental (this takes pressure off the spell slots again, and allows you to give rogues and the like flanking buddies without sacrificing spells per day)
15: Fiery Burst (Again, since your spells are precious and because even one uncast spell of any level serves as a key for any reserve feat that can be tied to any spell of that level, we're picking a lot of these. This one will likely be keyed off of flame strike, letting you pitch a 5d6 blast of fire at will as long as you've got at least 1 5th-level spell left for the day.)
18: Improved Flying (if you're going to have a fly speed, may as well increase your maneuverability a step)
Skill trick:
Healing Hands
Notable gear: Belt of magnificence +6 (the MADman's friend), +5 mithral full plate, +5 holy adamantine spiked chain
Final analysis:
This would certainly be a FUN character to play, and I can't deny that being able to cast close wounds and revivify spontaneously instead of as prepped spells increases their utility quite a bit. However, a large percentage of the material used in this build was released after the favored soul. Furthermore, I'm unconvinced, even carefully optimized, that the favored soul above would be as effective as a cleric of a similar level, especially one with a decent prestige class. (And by "decent" I mean something like Sacred Exorcist, not something cheesy like dweomerkeeper.) There were a lot of times as I was picking spells that I had to let something crucial, or at least very nice to have, fall by the wayside. I wasn't able to spare a known spell for any cure spells above 0 because the list was so tightly restricted. I really, truly don't think the FS is better than the cleric, though to get back to my first statement, I'm now convinced that it would at least be enjoyable to play.
I love playing this class.
Out
Improved Flying should be Improved Flight, though. It's in Races of the Wild and Complete Adventurer. (And a couple of older, 3.0 books, too.)
I honestly don't see how gaining energy resistance, the one thing that is ranted upon so much, as a class feature can be unbalancing. It's an equivalent of a 2nd level spell, for (Heironeous)'s sake! Wings are terribly late and the DR/silver is nice but it's at lvl 20. At that level either you're being hit so hard that it doesn't matter or everything bypasses it, plus it's 5% of the game. Plus it can be gained via several spells, one of which is a 5th level Player's Handbook cleric spell. Oh wait.
No domains, no turning, some of the most powerful class features in the game. Oh wait. I said that already.
I'll just quote someone above who said something about raging paranoia of people who are afraid of every new source and pick on everything as "overpowered" whether to appear clever or really indulge one's fear. The Favored Soul is not out to get you.
In fact, I find it sad and hope that you will take a pointer from my opinion, which is that I wonder how a respected and insightful poster with many redeeming qualities acknowledged board-wise managed to not only write this hateful article, let alone stand defending it for that much time afterwards.
p.s. Sorcerer is an example of terrible class design - strong, maybe 6th most powerful class in the game, but with no class features, few options, little customization and no reason to remain a sorcerer past lvl 6. Class features, hey! Look at new classes (PHB2, ToB, etc.) and their capstone abilities for an example.
I think the favoured soul would be around the 5th most powerful class behind the Cleric, Druid, Psion and Wizard and the Sorcerer would probably be 6th. Access to level 6+ spells turns out to be a more powerful class ability than feats or class features.
According to the Consensus,
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=369436
The Sorc ranks 11th, the FS ranks 8th.
The Druid, Wizard, Cleric, Artificer and Psion are the "Big Five".
malisteen's post has many good points. Too many folks yell "broken" without actually seeing one played (or better yet, playing one). Having done both, I can tell you that the FS is IMHO slightly overrated in the Consensus above. I would say it ranks = to the Sorc at higher levels.
Timespike: That is not a bad build, but every FS I have seen has a healing spell at every level- IF they are the only divine caster in the party, that is. If you are building a FS @ 20th, you can do without healing spells at every level (as you rely on higher level spells like Heal) but if you actually play from level 1, you will need healing at nigh every level.
We are talking about Dungeons and Dragons, there is no such thing as over the top. In a world where a tree hugger can turn into a toucan and old guy with a stick can cause earthquakes, a person who eventually grows feathered or bat-like wings is hardly unbelievable or nonsense.
Timespike: That is not a bad build, but every FS I have seen has a healing spell at every level- IF they are the only divine caster in the party, that is. If you are building a FS @ 20th, you can do without healing spells at every level (as you rely on higher level spells like Heal) but if you actually play from level 1, you will need healing at nigh every level.
Not true, have you forgotten that you can 1.) replace spells as you go up in level, which you most likely will do if your play a Favored Soul. 2.) You can always use higher level spell slots to fuel lower level spells, and with one feat from Races of the Dragon can uses lower level spell slots to fuel higher level ones. The number of times you can cast heal spells is more than enough to get you through a campaign I know this for a fact because I've done it quiet a few times, and its not always about your own personal spell power when it comes to curing the party wands, staves, and scrolls are all things a Favored Soul can use and most likely will find in a campaign where he is the primary healer. I hate it when people make it sound like DnD is this game where you don't get anything and you have to play with some restrictive amount of resources that come from your own power and not secondary sources.
In short the favored soul nor the cleric can cover all healing with their spells slots alone, especially the cleric because if he didn't prepare it that day, then your in trouble. The Favored Soul might not have the spell, but is more than likely to cover himself by having a scroll to do something he himself might not be able to do at his current level or ever. I know I don't take remove blindness or deafness, paralysis and a lot of the other remove/neutralize spells because I can take Panacea eventually and it does all that in one spell. I don't grab lesser restoration knowing that I'm gonna eventually take Restoration as my primary restoration, or if I do I replace it by the time I get Restoration.
1. Give them cleric/druid save progression (good Fort, bad Ref, good Will) instead of having all three saves as good saves.
2. Clip the Wings.
3. Make their spells known equal to the sorcerer's spells known.
IMO getting Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in their deity's favored weapon more or less balances out with not being able to turn/rebuke undead. I don't have too much of a problem with their energy resistances and the 20th level DR. By the time a FS reaches level 20, having 3 energy resistances at 10 and DR 10 to silver or cold iron probably won't make much difference.
What I might change about the FS:
1. Give them cleric/druid save progression (good Fort, bad Ref, good Will) instead of having all three saves as good saves.
2. Clip the Wings.
3. Make their spells known equal to the sorcerer's spells known.
IMO getting Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in their deity's favored weapon more or less balances out with not being able to turn/rebuke undead. I don't have too much of a problem with their energy resistances and the 20th level DR. By the time a FS reaches level 20, having 3 energy resistances at 10 and DR 10 to silver or cold iron probably won't make much difference.
You would benefit from reading the Unearthed Arcana's reasoning behind divine spellcasters having more spells known than their arcane versions. The basic premise is that a divine spellcaster has to know more spells so that they can do their primary function as the party support magic caster, you can't do that if you only know 3 to 4 spells from a given level.
Stripping the Favored Soul of class features so that its even more less desirable than a cleric is not balancing it out. I'm sorry but everything you just suggested sounds like you want to make a cleric with the war domain. 3 resistances and DR? Seriously, how do you compare 4 class features and 2 free or 3 free feats as actually being something worth spending 20 levels on?
I don't understand you people, where does it say only the monk can have 3 good saves? When you actually stop with the knee jerk reactions and just look comparatively, you'd see that the few unique features the FS gets along with his class benefits, are on equal comparison with any other divine spellcaster save the shugenja, but WotC pretty much admitted they didn't take that class seriously. There are two parts to every class, class features (everything you get that isn't BAB, Saves, Skill Points, Weapon and Armor Proficencies, and Hit Dice) and then there are Class Benefits (BAB, Saves, Skill Points, Hit Dice, Proficiences)
in a comparison the class benefits between the FS and the Cleric are the exact same except the Favored Soul gave up Heavy armor Proficiencies for a better Reflex Save. In terms of class features it works the same way, the cleric got 2 Domains and the turn/rebuke undead ability. That means the cleric actually got 2 powers or feats from the 2 domains, and 18 spells added to his spell list, so thats actually 4 class features (1 for each power granted by the domain, and 1 for each 9 spells added to the clerics spell list.), and then the mother of all stupidness Turning, which in recent years has become the fuel for some of the dumbest feats ever to grace DnD, Divine Feats. anyway thats another 1, so you have 5 class features all obtained at first 1 for a cleric, by increase in power as you level up either as a cleric or a full divine spellcaster.
Now where as the Favored Soul gains 2 bonus feats (similar to the 2 granted powers of two domains in some cases,) 3 energy resistance which in practicality counts as 1 class feature since its the three of them together that makes it a considerable ability, having energy resistance 10 fire only means might find it useful where as having 2 additional ones means that you have more bases covered but not everything yet still considerable. This not to mention the fact that its only 10 points, never to increase or decrease, considering on average a 10th lvl fireball will deal 30 points of damage and 15 on a save its not that powerful but definitely useful when you have 3 different ones. wings and DR these 2 count as two different features and i wont bother to argue their usefulness or reasoning. That brings it up to 5 class features just like the cleric.
What is a Favored Soul? A Favored Soul is a manifestation of a deities influence or dogma/beliefs through a living host. (Basically his beliefs made manifest through a innate connection to a living creature.) What does this sound like in comparison? A Angel or Devil no? Yes, so its no surprise that they gain energy resistance, wings and DR based on their alignment, its very much in align with the perceived notions of angels and devils/demons. It's a shame they didn't just make them out right transcend at 20th lvl, but that would be asking to much.. (*looks over at the Druid.*)
Anyway, I hope I enlightened the nay sayers, and threw a little fire under the people over and design and development at WotC's DnD department. The Favored Soul was more balanced than the cleric at the time of the Complete Divine release, and pretty much at the time of the Favored Soul's original release in the Miniatures Handbook. I can say this because the Favored Soul's spells are actually restricted the buff/healer/misc but not likely the offensive spells which clerics gain access to either through domains or other prc. The favored soul thus keeps true to the notion of helping the party instead of trying to be the do all character that ranges from healing (rarely buffing anyone other than himself.) offensive spell slinger.
If you wanna tweek something, tweek the cleric, remove domains that borough from other classes spell list lower the damage on cleric spells that deal damage offensively, like flame strike, blade barrier and harm ect ect ect.
Their problem is that they are already so totally dominated by the other class doing their job, the Cleric.
They lag the Cleric so badly in the power stakes, making them weaker is sort of like taking the Sorcerer, and saying "We know you lag the wizard badly, so we'll reduce your spell progression even further to fix that" It is making the problem worse!
I think there is really two ways to fix them:
1) Dump the Cleric and Druid. The FS does not compare too badly to the more sane classes out there. As the only source of Cleric spells he'll do fine. Bit overshadowed by the Spirit Shaman, but playable.
2) Make them equal to the Cleric. Divine Grace at level 3ish, to prevent dipping for it, and allowing them to pick spells of all the divine non-domain lists (Spells appearing at different levels uses Cleric list for base) Should give them things the cleric don't have, something that is not the case now.
And yes, that does make them overpowered, but about equal to the cleric. Still lags a druid.
In the years since the OP, actual play in hundreds of campaigns as reported on these boards, in cons, etc have shown that...
Mechanically, the FS is not overpowered.
Anyone who wants to play it will play something else if power is an issue. That reads "brutally underpowered" to me.
Honestly, I think pretty much EVERYONE would trade the wings, the energy resistances, and the weapon focus/spec for access to ONE good domain. Just the spells. OR to turn undead.
I think it says a lot when dumping all the abilities people argue are overpowered look like a good trade for just one of the abilities of his competitor.
I also got to say...it looks like the opening post has a bit of a "thing" about spontaneous casting. Comparing the FS solely to the Sorcerer on the basis that they are both spontaneous casters doesn't seem reasonable.
2. Clip the Wings.
Ok seriously people, the are little more than flavor by 17th level when you get them.
Let's look at the core only points when types of flight become available with a quick (but not comprehensive) list of ways of getting flying:
Druid via Wildshape at 5th level or via animal companion (varying level but way below 17th), Cleric, Wizard and Sorcerer via spells at 5th level, Druid via spells at 7th level, Paladin at 6th level via Special Mount, Ranger via Animal Companion (varying level but way below 17th).
Spells:
Fly (3rd level spell)
Airwalk, Polymorph Spell (4th level spells)
Wind Walk (7th level spell)
Animal Shapes, Polymorph Any Object (8th level spell)
Shapechange (9th level spell)
Items:
Winged Boots (16,000)
Broom of Flying (17,000)
Carpet of Flying (20,000, 35,000 and 60,000)
Cloak of the Bat (26,000)
Wings of Flying (54,000)
The wings aren't even remotely powerful, and are barely useful by the time you get them. You've also had at least 10 other options open for you to get fight sooner as a Favored Soul, and probably in a better form.