Can’t Handle Appropriate Encounters
The first thing that needs to be addressed is how the fighter compares to his enemy. The Challenge Rating (CR) is often used as a way to demonstrate why the fighter sucks. The CR system is meant as a way to determine the number of experience points a character should receive. A more appropriate system to use would be Encounter Levels (EL). With this system, a balor is both a CR 20 and an EL of 20. An ancient black dragon is also an EL 20, but is only a CR 19. When you use two or more creatures, you can lower the CRs without affecting the EL. This allows for more interesting combats. Rather than having the party always fight a single opponent, they can now fight 1 to 12 without changing the difficulty of the encounter. Both systems assume a party of four: fighter, cleric, wizard, and rogue.
Can the 20th level fighter handle 10 iron golems, 4 Half-Fiendish Hill Giant Were-Boar Barbarians 2, 1 balor, or 1 old silver dragon? Depends on the build of course, and this holds true for every class, the fighter should not be singled out.
If the DM is only throwing things at the party that 1 or 2 classes can handle with ease, but the rest have to sit and watch, then the DM has failed his players. Page 50 of the DMG gives a list of difficulty factors that will affect how challenging a given encounter will be. It ends with this sentence:
“None of the above factors should necessarily be taken into account when assigning or modifying Challenge Ratings, but you should keep them in mind when designing encounters.”
What this means is the DM should make sure that he doesn’t intentionally or unintentionally favor any class over another. He should be spending time with each encounter making sure that no one is left out.
Poor Saves
The fighter’s number of good/bad saves is equal to 6 of the 11 classes in the PHB. The only difference is that the fighter has no innate way to improve his saves.
51 spells require Fort saves; 30 spells require Ref saves; 120 require Will saves that need to be taken into account. Spells like heal or awaken are not included here.
Looking at the spells per level, we see that the trend for good Fort and Ref saves remains the same. Will drops considerably. There are quite a few spells that can remove anyone from the battle. Most require a Will save. If we look at minimums, the DC is 10 + 1.5 x spell level (round down). If we assume a 40% increase in DCs, any character with a low saving throw needs to worry. At 1st level, a wizard with a 16 Intelligence, Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, the DC for his saves which he has focus will be 15, 13 for the rest. This gives the fighter a 30-40% chance of success. With Iron Will, against the appropriate spells, that improves to 40% to 50%. By level 7, he needs a natural 20 to make those saves. He really needs to stay focused on improving his weaknesses. Just like a wizard would make sure that he doesn’t get hit (hps are one of his weaknesses), the fighter should do the same for his Will saves. Some spells are issues: Sanctuary, Shatter, Suggestion, Bestow Curse, Hold Person, just to name a few low level spells. A fighter that does not take these into consideration deserves what he gets.
Blue bars represent Fort saves, Red bars are Ref, and Yellow bars are for Will saves.
As we go through the monsters, we see that there is a trend for the need for Fort and Ref saves to drop significantly as the party reaches higher levels. We also notice that the Will Power saves increase dramatically. Look at the following chart:
for some reason Excel wants to start the CR at level 2 and go to level 21; just subtract 1 from each level to get the correct numbers
High Level DCs are 25+. Fighters begin with saves of 12/6/6. He can gain +5 with a Cloak of Resistance. He can gain +3 more from bonuses to Dexterity and Wisdom enhancements. He can also gain +2 to +3 more from Inherent bonuses from books. Let’s give him +4 inherent Wisdom. Even starting with 10’s in Constitution, Dexterity, and Wisdom, his saves aren’t too bad. Give him a luckstone and all saves go up +1 more. He can take Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will (17/16/16). Certainly not the best, but workable; these would give him roughly a 50% chance of making the worst saving throws the MM has to throw at the adventurers.
This is where the casters should lend a hand if needed (this is a team effort after all). They can help shore up some of the problems. With spells like Guidance, Greater Heroism, Magic Circle against Evil, and Hero’s Feast, the cleric or wizard can use only a few spells to give him (and potentially the whole team) some decent bonuses to all saves. So with the DCs in the mid 20’s, this gives the fighter an excellent chance to handle those saves.
Some may see this as a cop-out. The fighter has spells cast on him while he doesn’t reciprocate. First, this isn’t a problem. Friends do this for each other. Second, the fighter definitely reciprocates. He may not be able to buff the casters, but he can keep the enemy off of them longer so long as he’s still in play. Every attack coming at the fighter is an attack not going to someone else. Some don’t really see this as a contribution but after watching a football game, this is what the linemen are doing. They don’t get the glory, but they do their best to keep the enemy off the quarterback. While I am discussing what the casters can do for the fighter, I am really discussing what they can do for everyone in the party. Many buffs are appropriate for just about any character.
It seems odd that the fighter would go for the inherent boost to Wisdom over the cleric. However, the fighter should be doing what he can to boost his saves. The cleric will likely want the boost to his Wisdom for the +2 bonus to DCs and the extra spells he will get. In a well-rounded party, the book should go to the fighter. In most games this doesn’t happen. Even in games I run, the book almost always goes to the cleric. People tend to focus their fighters on damage, to hit, and hit points. While these are good things to improve, there are enough ways to do this cheaply. He should argue for the book if it is found. Of course, this also assumes that the DM pits the fighter against numerous opponents that force him to make Will saves. In campaigns where the DM is afraid to attack the party’s weaknesses, this may not be an issue.
One of the things that will make buffs easier to dole out will be for the group to determine roles. Each character should fill a primary and secondary role. If the fighter and cleric are both focused on being the meat-shield, there’s a problem with party resources not being used well. The cleric should not be relegated to buffer (and neither should most classes). The cleric is much more potent when filling the role of cleric rather than fighter. Meat-shield should be more of a secondary role for the cleric even if he worships gods such as Kord or St Cuthbert. The domain choices determine the secondary role for the cleric. A football team made up of running backs could theoretically win games, but the team’s stronger when everyone has a role and they stick to it only leaving that role when necessary.
The objective for the game should be to have fun. This varies from person to person so it’s hard to define exactly what “fun” is. Some people want the battles to last longer. Some want the battles to be over more quickly. A battle that lasts longer brings in more tactical options which make for a very memorable encounter. A battle that lasts longer also brings more chances for character death. One-shotting the enemy is also very memorable. The group needs to determine what works best for them. Once this is determined, the issue of buffs and roles will be much easier to work with.
Poor Skills
Let’s look at the next problem with fighters (blue skills are class skills).
Appraise*: DC 12-20. Several synergy bonuses, a feat, and two items can aid here. Taking 10 a very viable option.
Balance*: DC 10-32. The more common DCs are 10-15. Depending on the situation, he may be able to Take 10 which may be enough (many fighters might still need some help). Aid Another can help out or using a 10-foot pole for can add +2 to +4 circumstance modifiers.
Bluff: There isn't a strong need to Feint in Combat for the Fighter, so he's left to simply lying out of combat.
Climb*: While the DCs can get rather high, rope, pitons, a climbing kit, and his probably high Strength makes Taking 10 perfectly within his grasp (the DC is probably 5-15).
Concentration*: With his decent Constitution, some of these are within his grasp. Most DMs only use this skill for casters; however there can be plenty of other reasons like dealing with getting hit while quaffing a potion.
Craft*: Taking 10 is very easily accomplished with Craft, even at low levels. Craft has its own problems, namely time.
Decipher Script: This should probably be left to other party members or hire someone to decipher the document. However, with a decent enough Intelligence, Skill Focus, and the Diligent feat, the simplest messages might be within the Take 10 reach.
Diplomacy: DCs are from 0-60. Most of the time, the targets of this skill should be started at Indifferent. With a couple ranks, Skill Focus, and a decent Charisma he can Take 10 on improving the attitude. Note that he could also use it to worsen the attitude if he desires.
Disable Device: Not typically the fighter's job (some devices are impossible anyway unless done by a rogue). Nimble Fingers, Skill Focus, and an Intelligence of 14 are all that is needed for the basics.
Disguise*: Only 4 PC classes have Spot as a skill check. Many disguises may not catch anyone's attention. If he only needs to make minor changes, he gets a +5 bonus which can set the DC at 15 for the opposing check. Aid Another can bring this to 17. Note that the only time this check needs to be made is when it matters. The knight who makes himself look like a swashbuckler in a town where no one knows him may not need to worry much.
Escape Artist*: This will be a challenge. Grapples should be okay most of the time. The other checks may have to be bypassed by breaking the binding item. Hopefully the fighter has a good enough Strength to be able to Take 10 or even 20. Feats can make this easier, but usually that is a poor investment.
Forgery: Depending on the circumstances, the fighter could have a better than 50% chance of success. He would need 1 rank just to use the skill. Give him a 12 Intelligence, and he starts at +2 to this check. Deceitful might be a choice for him giving him +2 more. If he really wants to, he can take Skill Focus. He can also set the circumstances to give the opposing check up to a -6 penalty. Well within his grasp for many situations.
Gather Information*: DC 10 to learn about major news items. Taking 10 makes this achievable most of the time. With only 1 rank, he can Take 10 on many checks depending on race and circumstances.
Handle Animal: DC 30 is the highest (unless he wants to rear a wild animal). He needs a +10 to be able to Take 20. Not a problem at all.
Heal*: Most of the DCs are 15. A healer's kit, Self-Sufficient feat, Wisdom 12 and possibly Aid Another make this a Take 10 check. Note that the diseases in the SRD are DC 12-20. 8 of the 10 listed are within the Take 10 with the modifiers listed above. With poisons, nearly all can be overcome by Taking 10 with the modifiers listed above.
Hide: There is an armor check penalty that must be dealt with. The fighter may have a hard time with this check, but it is still possible to hide well. Two feats can give up to a +5 bonus.
Intimidate: This is an opposed check so every point should go here if he wants this skill. While not necessary, it should be maxed if he chooses it at all. Skill Focus may be a good investment if the fighter wants to be really good at this.
Jump: The more points here the better. Taking the Run feat will grant a +4 bonus. Honestly though, if you need to be jumping more than 20 feet, it may be time to ask the wizard for a fly spell. He only needs +10 to be able to jump 20 feet. There are some feats and skill synergies that make this possible.
Knowledge: For many checks, the DC is 10-15. Common knowledge is only a DC 10 so he can Take 10 on this check. If he wants to know more, he'll have to invest like anyone else. Even 1 point gives him the opportunity to hit the higher DCs. He can potentially hit the DC 20 for a tough question. Skill Focus can certainly help.
Move Silently: Moving silently a bit more difficult. Combined with the armor check penalty, moving silently isn’t something the fighter should consider most of the time. However, being an opposed check, it is entirely possible that he can pull this off. This is going to take some investment of feats and reduction in armor.
Open Lock: He needs to invest ranks and possibly a feat or two to make this worth trying. Of course, he can just cut through most obstacles with his high Strength and adamantine weapon.
Perform: With a masterwork instrument and a Charisma of 15, he can Take 10 to earn 1d10 sp daily. There isn't much use for this skill outside of the bard's abilities so it's not a big deal. A fighter who wants to be good at performing for his money should invest ranks, take Skill Focus, and improve his Charisma so he can at least Take 10 with a +10 bonus.
Ride: DC 20 is the highest he will have to worry about unless he also takes Mounted Combat. DC 10 or 15 is more likely. While he won't be able to Take 10 on most of these checks, 5 ranks in Handle Animal and a military saddle grant him a +4 bonus.
Search: He can't search for difficult or magical traps, like everyone except the rogue. He can Take 20 so many uses are within his grasp. If he's in a situation where he can only Take 10, there are some things he can do. He can also use Aid Another to help someone else (or vice versa).
Sleight of Hand: The fighter will probably have to deal with the armor check penalty. He needs at least 1 rank. Depending on what he's trying to hide, he may have a +4 bonus on this check. He shouldn't be using this skill to pick pockets. However it's still opposed so if he wants to gamble, he can try. Synergy and feats can add +4 to +7 to the check. Without training, you can’t succeed on any Sleight of Hand check with a DC higher than 10, except for hiding an object on your body.
Speak Language: Only 1 class has this as a class skill so the fighter is in the same situation as everyone else. The only difference is that characters that rely on high Intelligence may not need to invest many ranks (if any).
Spellcraft*: Most uses are for casters. He can invest some ranks, boost his Intelligence, and take a feat or two to make some of these checks doable. However, he has about as much reason to take this skill as the barbarian or monk.
Spot: Only 4 classes have Hide as a class skill. Those classes should be good at hiding so the fighter is in the same boat as most everyone else. Note that most of the classes with Hide also have Spot as class skills. If it's an issue, take 1 or 2 feats and be an elf granting you a +7 to your Spot checks by level 3. Improve your Wisdom and invest a few ranks.
Swim: DC 20 is the worst. With Full Plate, he's at a -12 and if he has a shield, he suffers another -4. Not a good idea to be swimming in a storm in full plate. He needs to dump a lot into this skill to make it viable at that point. However, DC 10 to 15 are more common. I would allow anyone to Take 10 in Calm Water only.
Survival*: Most DMs ignore the effects of weather in their games. However, that doesn't mean that all do. A fighter can Take 10, feeding himself every day without any problems. If he wants to feed the party, he will have to do something about it. A 1 or 2 feat investment gives him up to a +5 to his check (making the other uses Take 10 options). A single rank or a Wisdom of 12 makes it so the fighter can feed a party of 4 every day. Tracking can become an option, with many of the DCs within grasp.
Tumble: Only dwarven fighters or lightly armored fighters can use this at all. He can take a couple feats for up to a +5 bonus and he'll need at least 1 rank. Not the best option, but still doable.
Use Magic Device: The DCs are all tough, but still within his grasp. He'll need to invest at least 1 rank. He can take two feats to give him +5. A high Charisma will also be needed. Since this is not a class skill for most classes, he's no better or worse than most other classes.
Use Rope*: One use is an opposed check with a +10 bonus. A silk rope and 1 to 2 feats can give +7 more. This makes every use a Take 10 option with no ranks invested.
* requires no ranks to achieve what’s described.
The key here is to understand how DCs are supposed to be set. For this information, refer to your PHB. You’ll notice that most DCs are in the 10-20 range, well within the Take 10 or Take 20 range for any character.
There are many skills where only 1 person really needs to succeed. For those skills, the character with the best score should be the one making the attempt. Let’s touch on a couple of those skills:
Physical Skills
Most physical skills only require 1 success from the party. Climb, Balance, and Jump all usually only need 1 member of the party to successfully get past the obstacle. Once that happens he can use a rope or other device to aid the rest of the team.
Social Skills
The one with the highest Charisma and most ranks should be attempting this skill. The rest of the party should keep their mouths shut lest they cause problems. This goes for Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate. While sometimes it can help, generally only 1 person needs to succeed.
Utility Skills
These skills only really need 1 person to succeed. Skills such as Craft, Gather Information, and Knowledge only need 1 good success. It really doesn’t matter who succeeded, so long as he succeeded.
I am not referring to any single fighter. Just like not every rogue will have all the skills available to him, the same holds true for the fighter. The character should focus on skills appropriate to his concept. If he has a high Intelligence he not only has more skill points but he gets more out of investing in skills which use Intelligence. If the fighter is focused on Dexterity he should also consider skills that use Dexterity over those where he chose his dump stat.
Can’t fill classic roles
Here are the roles as I see them:
Sword-and-board. Classic shield and sword fighter with heavy armor. He can fill the role of classic knight, hero-for-hire, bodyguard, front-line infantry, or any number of similar roles. Feats to take include Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Combat Expertise, Improved Shield Bash, and Two-Weapon Fighting.
Brawler. The fighter can make a great unarmed combatant. He can be a street brawler, professional wrestler/boxer/martial artist, vigilante, or any other similar role. Feats to consider include Improved Unarmed Combat, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Focus, Improved Weapon Specialization, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Grapple, and Stunning Fist.
Hulking Brute. This fighter prefers two-handed weapons. He likes his weapons and armor big and heavy. This type of fighter is a great choice for thugs, mercenaries, professional gladiators, or similar roles. The key here is that he is focuses on damaging his opponent brutally. Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical are all great choices.
Mounted Warrior. This fighter prefers fighting from a mount. He is usually armed with a lance, longsword, and bow. He is very mobile on the battlefield and can bring the fight to the enemy quickly with some serious damage. He can often fill the role of cavalry, knight, professional soldier, rapid responder, or similar role. Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Mounted Archery, Ride-by Attack, Trample, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Point Blank Shot are perfect choices. He should also consider the Leadership feat to get a more powerful mount.
Artillery. This fighter prefers light armor and ranged weapons. He tends to focus on attacking either from a distance or from a safe, hidden spot. He is precise in his movements and tactics. Rarely does he start firing randomly. He can be an assassin, mercenary, bodyguard (think modern sniper for Secret Service), hunter, or other similar role. All the archery feats and weapon focus tree works here.
Skirmisher. This type of fighter gets in and out of combat quickly. He moves in, hits, and moves out. His attacks are precise and lethal. There is little room for error because he needs light armor for mobility. His weapons tend to have reach and may offer more options like tripping so he can be even more versatile. He works best as part of a unit. The roles great for him would be scout, forward observer, small specialty units (like modern day ranger or special forces), or other similar role. He could also fill in as an advanced unit to determine information about the enemy (SALUTE: Size, Activity, Location, Units, Time, and Equipment) and be able to report back with little problem. He can take Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus tree, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip. Maybe throw in Combat Reflexes for some fun and a reach weapon to round it out.
Skilled Dilettante. Think Errol Flynn, Zorro, or Inigo Montoya. He is flashy. He prefers light-to-no armor and uses light weapons such as the rapier. His primary goal is to woo the ladies and look good while doing it. It's all about style with him. This is a bit harder to pull off, but not impossible. Take feats like Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Disarm, Two-Weapon Defense, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Improved Feint, Spring Attack, Lightning Reflexes, Persuasive, Acrobatic, and Agile.
Man-at-Arms. This fighter is a master of options. The weapon doesn't matter, the person wielding it does. He is a master of tactics. This fighter is a drill sergeant, gladiator, or any other type that would use multiple weapons. He tends not to take Weapon Focus. He prefers small feat chains. He would focus on Combat Expertise tree, Power Attack tree, Point Blank Shot tree, and others. He won’t be able to complete all the trees, but he would have enough to make himself flexible in a variety of situations.
Exotic Warrior. This fighter either prefers unusual/unorthodox styles or prefers the more esoteric weapons. He can be found wielding two weapons, double weapons, climbing on larger opponents, is a mountain warrior preferring uneven terrain, uses exotic armors, or any other non-standard style or gear. This is usually a non-human character but need not be.
I’ve read that Commander is considered an archetype. This is incorrect. The Commander is actually a role that can be played by anyone. Simply taking the Leadership feat puts the character into the Commander role. There are a few other things that could improve that role, but any class or archetype can qualify.
Gear Dependant
The higher levels he attains, the more dependent upon his gear he becomes. This is true of all characters. According to the DMG Page 3, “A character without magic items is like a wizard with only half her spells prepared or a fighter who hasn’t bothered to select all his feats. – he’s simply incomplete.” So it is assumed by the design of the game that the fighter will have gear appropriate to his level.
We need to look at why the fighter “needs” gear more than other classes. He is shoring up weaknesses and improving his strengths. This is not unique to the fighter. The cleric does this by using magical armor, shields, and weapons (so he can save his spells for more useful purposes). The wizard does this by buying more scrolls or crafting items. The rogue needs to improve his skills so they can remain useful even into the high levels. The fighter spends his money more overtly on improvements, but that certainly doesn’t mean other classes aren’t doing the same thing.
Let’s leave Core for just a moment and look at one of the more “broken” builds out there, DMM and nightsticks. Keep in mind that the game is built around 25 point buy. This means that the cleric will probably start with Wisdom and then Charisma for his highest stats. Using the Elite Array, this means 15 and 14 respectively. If he adds +2 to Wisdom and +3 to Charisma, then he will only be at 17 for each. He’s going to want that 19 in Wisdom at a minimum. Let’s make sure he can get his DCs up, bonus spells, and enough turn attempts to make Persistent Spell useful. The dreaded DMM cleric with nightsticks is now dependent upon his gear. He will need to spend 7500 gold just for the nightsticks. Add in ability enhancers (Wisdom, Charisma) and he’s going to be spending 36000 x 2 (periapt and cloak) + 110,000 (tome +4) + 110,000 (tome +4) and we’re at 299,500. That’s about 40% of his money at level 20 and we’ve only bought 5 items. The cleric managed to get his Wisdom and Charisma to 27. If our cleric decides that he wants to emulate a fighter, he’s going to be putting quite a bit of money and effort into this. If he wants to be casting spells like raise dead or true resurrection, it is going to cost even more. Even if the party chips in, 25% of those values still add up.
Wizards are no different. Looking at their spells, they need to spend quite a bit of money just scribing them into their books. 1 page per level, 100gp per page, 100 pages per book, empty book costs 15gp. 19 level 0 spells, 4 1st level spells (assuming 15 starting Intelligence), and as he levels, he could have a total of 19, 6, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4 + 4 more of any level (let’s make them 2, 4, 6, 8 for simplicity). Every spell after this is going to cost. Just by adding one more known spell per level is going to cost 5,130 gold just for scribing the spells. The cost of each spell is also 13,167 for the spells themselves. To scribe 10 spells, one of each level, will cost 18,667. For the flexibility we the wizard is supposed to have with the spells he can cast, he should know 7 spells per level (this is what I’ve been able to gather from the boards, not my opinion). He will need 55,911 gold. While not much, it starts to add up quickly. He’s also going to need and want a high Intelligence. Let’s assume that he only cares about Intelligence. Starting with a 15, let’s give him +6 headband and +4 tome to get him up to 30 Intelligence (he does want his DCs as high as he can set them, this would make the DC 20+ spell level). He’s just spent 201,941, which is 28% of his money. He hasn’t invested in scrolls, wands, staves, or rings of wizardry yet.
The rogue is the same, but I don’t think I need to go into more purchases to show this. Every character needs money to be able to handle the higher level encounters. How they spend that money is up to them, but no character is going to do well without that money.
Feats Don’t Scale
Feats don’t scale, they stack. Power Attack and Combat Expertise do not scale since you need to take a penalty to get a bonus. Scaling means that your abilities improve without you sacrificing anything. Fireball scales. Power Attack does not; it synergizes with other bonuses so gives the illusion of scaling.
The other benefit of feats is that they continuously grant options. While any class can take almost any feat, only the fighter can have 3 or 4 feat trees (or more). He is not limited to 7 feats at 20th level. He has nearly three times as many. Some trees share prerequisites making them good combinations. When leaving Core, this becomes even truer.
Drain on Resources
This is an issue for many players. Buff spells are not really an issue. Most of the spells are low level, spell slots that the cleric or wizard wasn’t going to be relying on in the first place. Most buffs last quite some time. There is no reason why the party should wait for combat before using many of these spells. The party could chip in for a wand or staff that would grant these buffs instead of the casters having to prepare those spells.
Nothing says the fighter should be the only one getting buffs. In fact buffs should go to the most appropriate character. If the fighter is getting Enlarge, the rogue should be getting Blur. The cleric does not need to cast two to three spells on himself to become equal to the warrior (not fighter, but warrior) before buffs when he can instead cast one spell on the fighter and focus more on doing what he needs to do to affect the enemy. Any caster that is taking two to three rounds to become almost as good as someone who is already filling that role is not being played intelligently or wisely. They are in fact being played the exact opposite. For long-term buffs this is different, but in the short term, there is little reason to waste time. Strangely enough, the casters can really only get those two to three rounds when the melee guys are keeping the enemy at bay.
When it comes to reciprocation, it should be noted that everyone is going to view this differently. The fighter that puts his life on the line so the casters can get that extra round of spellcasting has reciprocated. The fighter can easily get into and stay in melee so the rogue can get his sneak attack. Note that while anyone can get into position for flanking, the fighter is suited to staying there and being dangerous.
Healing spells are not really a drain either. Everyone in the party is going to need one at some point. The party is supposed to use resources. Casting spells is supposed to happen. Using wands, scrolls, staffs, etc. is supposed to happen. The fighter can chip in for some of those costs, and should since he is benefiting.
The Fighter is not a Threat
This comes from a few different issues. First is probably a DM issue. If the DM is not making sure everyone has a chance to shine, then he has failed the player(s). If the DM is not using traps and the rogue has ranks in the appropriate skills, what’s at fault: the skills, the rogue, the DM, or the player? The DM has a responsibility to make sure every player and character has appropriate opportunities. The player has a responsibility to take those opportunities or even work on creating his own. This is not DM fiat. DM fiat is actually more of dues ex machina. The DM should be spending time making sure that the party can handle the encounter. He should not be throwing things in just because he wants the party to survive. That’s the party’s problem. The DM has an obligation to his players to provide an adventure they will enjoy. This isn’t a problem with the fighter, but a problem with the DM/player compatibility.
The DM should make sure that he is sending EL appropriate encounters at the party. He should be spending time making sure that those encounters are not going to hinder one class too much or too often. Sending hoards of undead at the party is screwing the rogue. This is the same as sending tons of colossal scorpions at the fighter who focused on Improved Trip. I have seen many players get upset because the DM sent too many rust monsters, too many undead, or too many magic resistant monsters at the party. It’s okay to do this periodically, but it should not be the norm.
If the DM targets the fighter to take him out first and the cleric or wizard takes that opportunity to slay the opponent, why did this happen? If the fighter was not a threat, then the enemy was not played as intelligently as he could have been. If the fighter was just an easy target, then the DM is just being mean. If this happened because that’s how the DM feels fighters should be treated, then the DM is at fault. The enemy should be played according to its Intelligence and Wisdom.
No Class Features
This is untrue. Their class features are Bonus Feats. This is important to note. While almost any feat can be taken by any class, the fighter gets three times as many. When built right, the fighter can have several different combat options and still have a few feats left over for improving saves and/or skills.
The Best Feats Are Useless As He Levels
Let’s take a look at what people refer to here. They are generally referring to any tactic that requires an opposed roll. Looking through the Monster Manual, the highest roll you’ll need worry about is 40 for the purposes of trip and bull rush. For grappling, you’re going to need to worry about 81. For sundering and disarming, 35 is the target number. Note that sundering is also going to need decent damage. Adamantine weapons are nice for this, but even a fighter dealing 30+ points of damage won’t have to worry much most of the time.
Only one creature has a grapple check at +81. All characters will have a hard time dealing with that number. The best answer is to just not deal with the grapples by using any number of tactics including freedom of movement, just not being in a grappling situation, or using ranged or reach weapons.
Better when they prestige/multiclass
This is a very strange argument in the fact that every character (not class, but character) is probably going to be stronger when they multiclass. That is the reason why people multiclass.
Some people leave the fighter for greener pastures as soon as they get what they want out of the class. Doesn’t this hold true for all classes? Who continues to take Wizard to level 20 when he would be better off taking a prestige class? To assume this is a problem unique to the fighter is wrong. Let’s take a look at the importance of multiclassing. A character does not multiclass because he doesn’t like the class he is in. What happens is that he needs more. The barbarian that takes a few levels of fighter so he can get some bonus feats isn’t seen as a problem but the fighter that takes a few levels of barbarian so he can rage is. If the fighter sucks because he must do this, then so does the barbarian. What about fighter/wizards? The wizard does not suck just because he doesn’t have a good enough base attack to fill the role. The wizard does not suck because he doesn’t have enough bonus feats. The wizard is inappropriate as a single classed character to fill that role.
Multiclassing allows a character to pick the features he wants to fill the concept. In most games, characters are not built as static sets of numbers. Most players come up with a concept and try to select the combination of classes that fit that concept.
How Do You Make a Decent Fighter?
The first thing you need to do is come up with a fighting style you would like to specialize in. This should be something you’ll be able to accomplish by level 4 or 5. From there, focus on a few more styles that compliment your specialization. Don’t forget that you will also need to address some of your weaknesses.
Step 1: Check with DM
Talk to the DM about the campaign. What type of campaign is this? The DM says that there is a war going on between the good humanoids and the evil ones. Most of the encounters will be with humanoids, but we should keep in mind that they tend to employ whatever means they can. Good we spoke with the DM first. The first concept we had might have been a dwarven swashbuckler built more for city adventuring and interacting with the ladies.
Step 2: Concept.
We want this fighter to be the stereotypical knight. A little background here would be a good start. This fighter originally wanted to be a paladin, but he can’t seem to keep his anger in check and tends to react to his emotions. Let’s make him Chaotic Good. We should consider his race here also. Knights seem to be more of a human concept so let’s make him human.
Step 3: Plan.
What will he look like at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20? While we know that this will change as the campaign goes on, it’s important to have a plan. Let’s look at some feats that will help us fill that goal.
- Weapon Focus (longsword)
- Weapon Specialization (longsword)
- Weapon Focus (lance)
- Weapon Specialization (lance)
- Greater Weapon Focus (longsword)
- Greater Weapon Focus (lance)
- Greater Weapon Specialization (lance)
- Greater Weapon Specialization (longsword)
- Dodge
- Mounted Combat
- Improved Shield Bash
- Two-Weapon Fighting
- Mobility
- Combat Expertise
- Leadership
- Ride-by Attack
- Spirited Charge
We may have chosen too many feats. We need to remain flexible with our choices. We can’t neglect our skills or saves so let’s make sure that we leave some room for feats to help out there. We can drop Dodge and Mobility. This will leave us with 3 feats to play with later. We can still drop things if we need to.
Let’s go to the skills and see what we need. We know that we’re going to need Ride. That’s going to eat up our skill points. What else should we focus on? Intimidate seems good. So does Jump and Climb. Diplomacy may come in handy. Handle Animal will be a very good choice. We may also want to give him some Knowledge (nobility and royalty). We know that we have at least 3 skill points per level so far. We’re probably going to have to look at some attributes. Our feats and skills are going to need this information.
Step 4: Build
Since this is a 25 point buy character, let’s keep it simple and give him the Elite Array. We know that we need and 13 Intelligence, 15 Dexterity. We’re going to want some good scores in Strength and Constitution. So let’s start with the minimums.
Str: 14
Dex: 15
Con: 12
Int: 13
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
So now we qualify for all of our feats and we can still have some flexibility.
At first level, we have 16 skill points to spend. Let’s start with Climb 4, Knowledge 2, Diplomacy 2, and Handle Animal 4. We really can’t afford a mount yet, so let’s not worry about Ride quite yet.
We will want to take the feats now, so let’s take Weapon Focus (longsword), Two-Weapon Fighting, and Improved Shield Bash.
Level 1
Attack: Longsword +4 (1d8+2) or longsword +2 (1d8+2) and shield +0 (1d6+1)
Saves: Fort +3, Ref: +2, Will +0
Skills: Climb +6 (4r), Diplomacy +1 (2r [cc]), Handle Animal +3 (4r), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +3 (2r [cc])
Let’s move him to level 5. We have an attribute increase to address. Since we have an odd number of points to add up to level 20, we can add to Intelligence first and still add 4 more to Strength later. Let’s do that.
We have 3 more feats to add in. We’re also going to have 8 skill points for levels 2 and 3. Levels 4 and 5, we’ll have 10 points. We can work with this.
We can now afford a mount so let’s put points into Ride. We’re going to max this skill out since we’re going to want to protect our mount. At level 5 that’s 8 ranks. We also need one more point in Handle Animal at a minimum for the synergy bonus. It’s time to put points into Intimidate and Diplomacy now. 5 ranks in Bluff will give us +2 to both skills.
We should take Mounted Combat and Power Attack. Let’s take Improved Initiative (it wasn’t on our list, but that +4 bonus is nice).
We should write up a wish list of gear. Note that we may not get all this gear, but there is very little reason why it should be denied in a standard campaign.
Level 5
Str: 14
Dex: 15
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
Initiative: +6
AC: 19
Attack: Longsword +9 (1d8+3), or lance +8 (1d8+2), or longsword +6 (1d8+2) and shield +4 (1d6+1), or lance +5 (1d8+2) and shield +4 (1d6+1)
Saves: Fort +5, Ref: +3, Will +1
Skills: Bluff +0 (1r [cc]), Climb +2 (4r), Diplomacy +1 (2r [cc]), Handle Animal +7 (8r), Intimidate +1 (2r), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +3 (2r [cc]), Ride +14 (8r)
Feats: Weapon Focus (longsword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Mounted Combat, Improved Initiative, Power Attack.
We can get some gear to improve these numbers a little bit like an appropriate saddle to give +2 to Ride checks. We will probably have either masterwork weapons or magical ones. Let’s give him a +1 longsword and a masterwork lance. He also has masterwork breastplate and heavy steel shield.
Let’s look at level 10.
He should add this to Strength now. Now let’s look at his feats. He gets 5 more feats. He can now take Leadership to get a decent mount. He can have a Leadership score of 10. This gives him a 7th level mount. He could take a Pegasus which should last him a few levels. The mount can continue to grow with the fighter through several levels. For the other 4 feats, let’s give him Weapon Specialization (longsword), Weapon Focus (lance), Spirited Charge, and Iron Will. He also gets 25 more skill points. Let’s continue to max out Ride and see where we want to go from here. He should have a +2 weapon, +1 back up weapon, +2 armor, and a +2 shield. This takes up more than 28,000 gold but he still has plenty to play with. He should consider improving his Constitution to get more hit points.
Here he is at level 10
Str: 15
Dex: 15
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
Initiative: +6
AC: 23
Attack: +1 Longsword +14/+9 (1d8+5), or +2 lance +15/+10 (1d8+4), or longsword +12 (1d8+5) and shield +10 (1d6+1), or lance +13 (1d8+4) and shield +10 (1d6+1)
Saves: Fort +8, Ref: +5, Will +5
Skills: Bluff +4 (5r [cc]), Climb +2 (4r), Diplomacy +9 (6r [cc]), Handle Animal +7 (8r), Intimidate +9 (6r), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +5 (3r [cc]), Ride +19 (13r)
Feats: Weapon Focus (longsword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Mounted Combat, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (lance), Leadership, Weapon Focus (lance), Spirited Charge, Iron Will
When he charges, he deals triple damage with the lance and double damage with other weapons. His mount can also attack. Remember that we haven’t purchased all his gear yet, there is still a decent amount left over.
Our level 10 fighter can handle himself in combat. His skills are useful out of combat. He can fill the role of commander.
Now we’ve hit level 15. We’ve not used all the feats on the list from before. We get 4 more feats and 25 more skill points so let’s see where we stand now. We need to take the Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization feats as well as Combat Expertise to finish our list. Let’s take Weapon Specialization (Lance), Greater Weapon Focus (lance), Greater Weapon Specialization (lance), and let’s also throw in one from outside the list, Skill Focus (Ride). We should switch our Pegasus mount for a griffon at any point from 10th level on.
He should have a +3 primary weapon, +2 back up weapon, +3 armor, +3 shield, saving throw buffs, Strength and Constitution buffs. His mount is now a level 10 mount. We have 200,000 gold to play with. We can spend just over 141,000 to end up with a +2 longsword, +3 lance, +3 breastplate, +3 heavy steel shield, belt of giant strength +6, amulet of health +6, and cloak of resistance +5.
Str: 22
Dex: 15
Con: 18
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
Initiative: +6
AC: 25
Attack: +2 Longsword +24/+19 (1d8+8), or +3 lance +26/+21 (1d8+16), or longsword +22 (1d8+8) and shield +19 (1d6+3), or lance +24 (1d8+13) and shield +19 (1d6+3)
Saves: Fort +15, Ref: +12, Will +12
Skills: Bluff +4 (5r [cc]), Climb +6 (4r), Diplomacy +12 (9r [cc]), Handle Animal +7 (8r), Intimidate +9 (6), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +5 (3r [cc]), Ride +27 (18r), Sense Motive +5 (3r [cc]), Tumble +2 (4r [cc])
Feats: Weapon Focus (longsword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Mounted Combat, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (lance), Leadership, Weapon Specialization (lance), Spirited Charge, Iron Will, Power Attack, Greater Weapon Focus (lance), Greater Weapon Specialization (lance), Skill Focus (Ride)
So our core only fighter can deal with battlefield mobility, can inspire troops, deals a decent amount of damage.
Let’s go to level 20. The two attribute points are going into Constitution rather than Strength as we originally planned. It looks like we can deal enough damage just fine. We get 4 more feats and 20 more skill points. Let’s look at feats first. We can take Negotiator, Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Improved Critical (longsword), and Greater Weapon Specialization (longsword). As for the skills, we know Ride needs more points. Let’s also add 1 more to Diplomacy. This leaves us with 15 points. Let’s put them all into Intimidate.
We should have a +5 primary weapon, +4 back up, +5 armor, and a +5 shield at this point.
Str: 22
Dex: 15
Con: 20
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
Initiative: +6
AC: 29
Attack: +4 Longsword +34/+29/+24/+19 (1d8+12), or +5 lance +35/+30/+25/+20 (1d8+18), or longsword +32 (1d8+12) and shield +23 (1d6+3), or lance +33 (1d8+15) and shield +23 (1d6+3)
Saves: Fort +22, Ref: +13, Will +13
Skills: Bluff +4 (5r [cc]), Climb +6 (4r), Diplomacy +16 (11r [cc]), Handle Animal +7 (8r), Intimidate +19 (18r), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +5 (3r [cc]), Ride +32 (23r), Sense Motive +7 (5r [cc]), Tumble +2 (4r [cc])
Feats: Weapon Focus (longsword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Mounted Combat, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (lance), Leadership, Weapon Specialization (lance), Spirited Charge, Iron Will, Power Attack, Greater Weapon Focus (lance), Greater Weapon Specialization (lance), Skill Focus (Ride), Negotiator, Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Improved Critical (longsword), and Weapon Specialization (longsword)
So there’s our Core-only fighter that can fill the role of mounted warrior, sword-and-board, and commander. So he can handle multiple opponents (two-weapon fighting, shield bashing, and his mount); he can handle single opponents (mounted combat, power attack, charge); he can deal with mobile opponents (mounted combat, flying or grounded); he has about a 50% chance of dealing with Ref and Will saves (we haven’t finished purchasing his gear so this can go higher); and he can lead an army into battle immediately after they’ve been demoralized by significant losses with the command presence of Patton. Expect the character to change as the campaign progresses. There are still things we can do like improve Charisma, get defending weapons, etc. This is just a start.
Conclusion
The fighter can be a significant member of any party when built properly. The fighter can handle himself in any combat and can do just fine outside of combat. He may have some difficult battles, but that would hold true for any character.
If we were to look only at how casters fare, of course the fighter may appear lacking. However, this isn’t a problem unique to the fighter. All non-casting classes will have the same issues. If we only look at how spells work, ignoring how feats and skills work, then we will see many of the same problems again. However, when we realize that the feats are not meant to be consumable resources, we realize that they function quite well. Of course, this all depends on how the DM runs his games. If the DM is only using a few encounters per day, the casters can nova. If the DM is using mostly magical opponents, then he is tilting the balance of the game towards the casters. If the DM is only using anti-magic encounters (not necessarily the spell, but tactics), then he is favoring the non-casters. If the DM runs the characters through a gauntlet without giving them any rest time or allowing the wizards to learn new spells, then he is favoring the non-casters.
If we really spend some time understanding the game, we can see that the fighter is actually rather balanced. While not perfect (and I would never claim that any class is), it fills its intended function: chassis for any fighter-type the player wants. The only thing that would really make the class better would be some guidelines on how to build the character. Ideally, guidelines shouldn’t be needed for a well built character. There should be some guidelines for all classes, but nothing on the level that I have written here.
I would say that the fighter is a very difficult class to work with when it comes to building it up from 1st to 20th. I think it’s very easy to play, just not build. I would say that casters are the exact opposite. They are very easy to build from 1st to 20th, but not as easy to play. Sometimes more options can cause more problems as you are more likely to make a poor choice that can cause your character’s untimely death. If you select the wrong spells today, you may not survive until tomorrow to fix the problem. This isn’t the best way to balance classes against each other or within the system, but this is how things have been for decades now. Hopefully 4E changes things, we can only wait and see.
However, let me attempt to rebut the section of your post about classic roles. I'll use only the SRD too.
Now, I could say "A fighter can fulfill the role of party healer. Just take ranks in the Heal skill and Craft (Alchemy)". I would be right, but that wouldn't be the most effective option. You seem to be saying a fighter can fulfill certain classic roles, but what you really should be looking at is whether they are an optimal option (or heck, even a good option) for filling that role.
I think your example Fighter would have problems with survivability. I also don't think he has the social or command skills that you claim he does. Changing Indifferent to Helpful is a DC 30 Diplomacy check and even at level 20 your bonus is only +16.
If you use the Rally Check rules in Heroes of Battle, it would be very tough for your example Fighter to rally troops from Panicked to Normal. You'd be rolling D20+3 on a DC 20 or DC 30 check. Not exactly "Patton".
Let's take a look at your archetypes.
Sword-and-board. Classic shield and sword fighter with heavy armor. He can fill the role of classic knight, hero-for-hire, bodyguard, front-line infantry, or any number of similar roles. Feats to take include Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Combat Expertise, Improved Shield Bash, and Two-Weapon Fighting.
A Fighter can do this. The massive number of feats helps. However, what makes two-weapon fighting effective is bonus damage that is not strength-dependent. A sword and board Fighter will need to invest in two separate Weapon Specialization trees if they want to get that and I'm not sure even that would make it worthwhile.
Paladins and Rangers can do this too. The Ranger gets free TWF feats and Favored Enemy. The Paladin gets Smite Evil. Both get nifty spells and better skills.
Brawler. The fighter can make a great unarmed combatant. He can be a street brawler, professional wrestler/boxer/martial artist, vigilante, or any other similar role. Feats to consider include Improved Unarmed Combat, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Weapon Focus, Improved Weapon Specialization, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Grapple, and Stunning Fist.
It's a stretch to say that Fighter can do this without Tumble and Escape Artist as class skills. Monk does it better. Monk also has better saves and better skills. Also, in a SRD only game, you will have a hard time beating DR with your fists.
Hulking Brute. This fighter prefers two-handed weapons. He likes his weapons and armor big and heavy. This type of fighter is a great choice for thugs, mercenaries, professional gladiators, or similar roles. The key here is that he is focuses on damaging his opponent brutally. Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical are all great choices.
Ah, now we're getting somewhere. This is classic Fighter territory and I think a Fighter is viable here. However, the Barbarian will be just as good as you and once again the Barbarian has better skills.
Mounted Warrior. This fighter prefers fighting from a mount. He is usually armed with a lance, longsword, and bow. He is very mobile on the battlefield and can bring the fight to the enemy quickly with some serious damage. He can often fill the role of cavalry, knight, professional soldier, rapid responder, or similar role. Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Mounted Archery, Ride-by Attack, Trample, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Point Blank Shot are perfect choices. He should also consider the Leadership feat to get a more powerful mount.
This is a stretch. Even with Leadership and Mounted Combat your mount will be too fragile at higher levels. Ride takes up many of your meager skill points. You will get shown up by the Paladin, Ranger, and Druid - all three of which have spells and class features that can improve their mount. And all three have more non-combat options than the fighter.
Artillery. This fighter prefers light armor and ranged weapons. He tends to focus on attacking either from a distance or from a safe, hidden spot. He is precise in his movements and tactics. Rarely does he start firing randomly. He can be an assassin, mercenary, bodyguard (think modern sniper for Secret Service), hunter, or other similar role. All the archery feats and weapon focus tree works here.
Perhaps you can attack from a distance, but how exactly are you going to attack from hiding? No Hide and no Move Silently. Surely you'll concede that Rangers and Rogues do this better.
Skirmisher. This type of fighter gets in and out of combat quickly. He moves in, hits, and moves out. His attacks are precise and lethal. There is little room for error because he needs light armor for mobility. His weapons tend to have reach and may offer more options like tripping so he can be even more versatile. He works best as part of a unit. The roles great for him would be scout, forward observer, small specialty units (like modern day ranger or special forces), or other similar role. He could also fill in as an advanced unit to determine information about the enemy (SALUTE: Size, Activity, Location, Units, Time, and Equipment) and be able to report back with little problem. He can take Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus tree, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip. Maybe throw in Combat Reflexes for some fun and a reach weapon to round it out.
You simply don't have the skills to do the job you describe. No Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Search, or Survival. The Rogue and Ranger will do this better than you.
Skilled Dilettante. Think Errol Flynn, Zorro, or Inigo Montoya. He is flashy. He prefers light-to-no armor and uses light weapons such as the rapier. His primary goal is to woo the ladies and look good while doing it. It's all about style with him. This is a bit harder to pull off, but not impossible. Take feats like Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Disarm, Two-Weapon Defense, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility, Improved Feint, Spring Attack, Lightning Reflexes, Persuasive, Acrobatic, and Agile.
An SRD-only Dex-based fighter won't be that effective. You need two-weapon fighting and source of bonus damage that's not strength-based. You can do Weapon Specialization, but that will make it tough to the get those skill and save feats.
Oh, and good luck "wooing the ladies" without Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather Information, or Knowledge (Nobility) as class skills. The Rogue, Ranger, and Bard do this much better than you.
Man-at-Arms. This fighter is a master of options. The weapon doesn't matter, the person wielding it does. He is a master of tactics. This fighter is a drill sergeant, gladiator, or any other type that would use multiple weapons. He tends not to take Weapon Focus. He prefers small feat chains. He would focus on Combat Expertise tree, Power Attack tree, Point Blank Shot tree, and others. He won’t be able to complete all the trees, but he would have enough to make himself flexible in a variety of situations.
This is classic fighter territory and at first you would seem to be on firm ground. However, I suspect that in reality you would be equally ineffective in several areas. Additionally, you're spreading around your magic item cash. Also, different feat chains have different attribute requirements - how exactly are you going to have good STR, DEX, and INT while still maintaining a decent CON? By dumping WIS and CHA. Which means you aren't addressing your will save problem or your lack of social skills.
Exotic Warrior. This fighter either prefers unusual/unorthodox styles or prefers the more esoteric weapons. He can be found wielding two weapons, double weapons, climbing on larger opponents, is a mountain warrior preferring uneven terrain, uses exotic armors, or any other non-standard style or gear. This is usually a non-human character but need not be.
I will give you this one. Fighter 20 can make a fun spiked chain tripper, for example.
I’ve read that Commander is considered an archetype. This is incorrect. The Commander is actually a role that can be played by anyone. Simply taking the Leadership feat puts the character into the Commander role. There are a few other things that could improve that role, but any class or archetype can qualify.
Sure, anybody can take Leadership, but you won't get as much from it as other classes because your CHA probably isn't that great. When people talk about Commanders, they usually mean people that can make their followers more effective. How exactly are you going to do that? You have no bardic music. You have no buff spells.
What's more, you don't have the class skills to be a truly great commander or military leader. No Diplomacy, Knowledge (History), or Sense Motive.
It's true that the Fighter catches a lot of flak, but in my experience there's a reason for it. Take a look at your Fighter at different levels. Remember what spells are available to full casters at those levels. It's true that they have a limited number of those spells, but just as the game "assumes" a 25-point buy it "assumes" four encounters per day. It's true that Fighters have more feats then anyone else, but they don't have many skills or any spells. That means they will never be as versatile or (in my opinion) fun to play as full casters, rogues, or even rangers or paladins.
To the guy above, some comments:
-The more books you add the more complicated things start being. Stuff such as Unearthed Arcana full of alternative rules makes comparisons very hard.
-Ironically, more books actually help the fighter quite a lot. Thanks to his feats the fighter can enter powerful prestige classes quickly and easily. Then, just like spells, there are a lot of powerful feats in splatbooks to improve your fighter. And mounts, magic items, etc, etc.
-The barbarian being stronger than the fighter in 1 to 1 combat is far from truth. A well built pure fighter can actually outdamage the well built pure barbarian.
- I'm not going to go over all of Outsider Subtype's examples but I do agree that most of those roles are subpar and fighter as a class that will allow you to "be most things related to fighting" isn't the class for it, sadly.
What this means is the DM should make sure that he doesn’t intentionally or unintentionally favor any class over another. He should be spending time with each encounter making sure that no one is left out.
- here is the catch. The fighter you provide as an example strikes me as a good design. Granted, its damage won't even scratch a threat that others can deal with, won't be able to avoid being hit anymore than others nor will be able to hold any enemy in place, but we can honestly say: it works. But I mentioned the catch....
Compared to a whole lot of classes (with some obvious exceptions such as the abysmally poor Hexblade), fighter demands vastly more DM attention than other classes. This is not intentionally or unintentionally favoring; let's assume that the DM is good hearted and does his best for everyone as he should. Spending a lot of time thinking about "what will give him a chance to be useful" or "will this wipe him out" is nice, but when it grows into a routine, it's a sign that the game has gone wrong. The game should need minimum DM fiat, at very least in this area.
- The next thing is, as Outsider posted, underwhelming power level of swashbuckler, artillery, skirmisher and such. You can take point blank and roleplay being an archer, but you affect the world through mechanical rules. If your nimble swashbuckler doesn't have any way to avoid hits or a skirmisher is seen by every monster he tries to sneak up on, roleplaying turns into a fallacy because you're lying to yourself and the DM.
The general argument for this is but why should swashbuckler, artillery and skirmisher be useful against Balors (or whatever)? A swashbuckler shouldn't be good in actual advantures etc..
Answer: because D&D is about imagination, and having only two so-so marginally viable roles (the one you posted as example or a big weapon heavy hitter) sucks. It blows big time. Swashbuckler should be an icon of grace who dances on the Balor's sword. There should be as much room left for a skirmishing spear-thrower as for the knight in shining armor, and we know that against anything other classes can face and deal with, these other roles will suck.
Of course, this gets a bit better with more supplements, Completes and PHB2 the most. Maybe still gimped, but better.
However, despite all this flaming on the fighter that I've done, you have a good point in writing all of this, a very good one: You can still be happy with a fighter and do what you're supposed to do reasonably well, provided the DM gives you some cooperation. That's why I think it's a good article and good point and that excessive "OMG you're fighter 20 how could you" cries are often wrong. Keep up the good work.
(2) looking further in the post ... nice graphs, but the spells themselves don't matter: it matters what monsters have (suppose all lvl 20 monsters have the lvl 9 spell with Will save, but there also exist 200 spells with a Fortitude save. As you see, the spell count doesn't matter how many spells there are; only the monsters).
(3) nice comparison about the football team. a team of clerics can easily be overcome by a few early fireballs (CoDzilla's in core are MAD: WIS 19+ for spells, STR or your attacks won't hit, CON for hp, DEX 12 for AC, ...).
also: Will saves? the party booster casts a simple magic circle vs evil ... bye bye dominate person, charm person, and monster variants ...
(4) about skills? fighter has more skills then the sorcerer. the sorcerer needs skills (like concentration, spellcraft, knowledge(arcane)) the fighter needs nothing.
I'm more of the "Lets put the party together, and check the global resources. what does the fighter contribute?" IMO the fighter will be the best meat shield even better then the cleric, because what are the prerequisites for a meat shield?
- he has AC and hp
- at any point of the day (even if the enemy has suprise or higher init)
I disagree that a straight Fighter build is the way to go. But with a judicious use of level-dips, a full BaB, mostly Fighter build can be done in many different ways, even without PrCs.
If half of the energy spent on denigrating Fighters and extolling Fighters as a class were instead concentrated upon the best ways to utilize the great advantages that all of those feats that the class provides, this would be a better message board overall.
Can you have fun with a gimped class? Certainly. Doesn't change the fact that designers said it has been gimped, and that those "flaws" so cunningly reinterpreted are being exorcised in the next edition.
Let's look at it this way: A Druid's animal companion typically has better attributes, better to-hit values, isn't gear dependent, has better saves, receives spells for free, and can fulfill one of the 'doable' fighter roles (Tank, damage dealer,skirmisher) better than a PC can, then there's trouble, especially considering that if the animal had the fighter's gear budget, it would do a much better job. Heck, with the awaken spell, the animal companion would do much better.
Honestly, if a class feature is better at doing the fighter's job then a fighter, that means something is wrong. You might be better off assigning your fighter player to be the animal companion and allocate the animal companion the fighter's gear budget!
The gimpedness of the fighter has been publicly acknowledged and is an opinion with the consensus of the majority of players on this website. It doesn't do anyone any good denying it, as many people from many styles of play and years of playtesting have indeed reported that yes, fighters suck.
Looking at statistical weaknesses differently won't change the fact that they are statistical weaknesses; if a fighter can't do job X effectively, he can't do it effectively. Unless you come up with a brilliant new build and play style that magically eliminates these weaknesses, then nothing is going to change other than how people -talk- about the fighter, and frankly that isn't particularly useful at all.
This post is fairly moot when we look at all the design changes and posts about 4e. The designers have already acknowledged how terrible the fighter is compared to other classes, we can hear it in the podcasts and read it on the blogs.
Can you have fun with a gimped class? Certainly. Doesn't change the fact that designers said it has been gimped, and that those "flaws" so cunningly reinterpreted are being exorcised in the next edition.
Let's look at it this way: A Druid's animal companion typically has better attributes, better to-hit values, isn't gear dependent, has better saves, receives spells for free, and can fulfill one of the 'doable' fighter roles (Tank, damage dealer,skirmisher) better than a PC can, then there's trouble, especially considering that if the animal had the fighter's gear budget, it would do a much better job. Heck, with the awaken spell, the animal companion would do much better.
Honestly, if a class feature is better at doing the fighter's job then a fighter, that means something is wrong. You might be better off assigning your fighter player to be the animal companion and allocate the animal companion the fighter's gear budget!
The gimpedness of the fighter has been publicly acknowledged and is an opinion with the consensus of the majority of players on this website. It doesn't do anyone any good denying it, as many people from many styles of play and years of playtesting have indeed reported that yes, fighters suck.
Looking at statistical weaknesses differently won't change the fact that they are statistical weaknesses; if a fighter can't do job X effectively, he can't do it effectively. Unless you come up with a brilliant new build and play style that magically eliminates these weaknesses, then nothing is going to change other than how people -talk- about the fighter, and frankly that isn't particularly useful at all.
This kind of quote system is what irritates Fighter gurus so much. Many blanket statements, without ever having done the math to support them.
A Druid's AC has good physical attributes to make up for its crappy overall combat ability. without stat increasers, the sucky BAB, low hd, and overall lack of combat feats would turn it into a speed bump even faster then it is. It can't do the Fighter's job at all well unless buffed to the moon, and if you buff the Fighter to the moon, well, that only makes people complain the fighter needs buffs.
The AC is very gear dependent...it has to have a Druid with it to be anything approaching viable.
An Awakened AC must become a cohort, like any other intelligent being. It promptly loses all the AC Hd, AC and stat buffs, and now has to take character levels like everything else...meaning that once again, it sucks. Only now it has to start over, and is a magical beast and can't benefit from animal-only buffs. Suck even more.
Every natural advantage the AC has the Fighter can replicate with a Polymorph Self potion into, say, a Firbolg or War Troll. And a Fighter doesn't need to be a four-legged ball of hide the rest of the time, with a 2 Int. He actually, y'know, has fighting feats.
The fighter's problem is his out of combat performance, not his in combat performance. The Druid's AC is a speed bump for most encounters of the proper CR, unless buffed out to the 9's. But ANY creature that is buffed out to the 9's is a grossly overpowered threat. Clerics demonstrate this with their triple buff "Fighter wannabe" combo. Fighters can demonstrate it with a Polymorph and a couple buffs from a friendly mage.
====Aelryinth
Personally, I gave the fighter more feats (from 11th onwards he gets one every level instead of every other level) and tweaked some of the feats so that Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Two-Weapon Fighting all keep getting better.
Complete Warrior did the fighter a lot of favors, not least because of the occult slayer prestige class.
The problem is that the whole "the fighter sucks!/does not!"-debate is based mostly on feelings that are not so easily addressed with facts and rational arguments. I play a fighter, so I like the class. But every once in a while I think I miss out on some of the "specialness" that makes other classes what they are.
Now a fighter does what just about every character ever rolled in DnD does sooner or later - fight. Does it do that better than any other combination of classes/PrCs? Not necessarily better than any other, but better then most.
And that's ok, I think. The cleric that can don his armor and wield a weapon almost as good, or the barbarian that rages and makes brutal assaults does not -in my mind- take anything away from the fighter.
It is all in the expectations. If you come to expect something "more" from every class, then yes the fighter will probably come up short.
There may be some merit to the argument about "dead levels", that gaining a level should mean more then only numerical progression of a few of the basic abilities. After all - that is more or less what separates the PC classes from NPC classes. And the fighter has a few "dead levels".
They are not that many - depending on exactly how you want to count "dead" levels - and they also fall back on what your expectations are to begin with.
The fighters edge on other builds is in the bonus feats. They're his strength while also giving him considerably more flexibility then other classes. The fighter can branch out in several feat-trees while most other builds will have to plan a much more conservative strategy.
Thus what the fighter may seem to be lacking on other builds that, in a secondary role, can fight almost as well as a fighter, is actually made up by the fighters "secondary role" - as a fighter with different make up.
This kind of quote system is what irritates Fighter gurus so much. Many blanket statements, without ever having done the math to support them.
Which is astounding because you know, the math has been done over and over, and self-proclaimed "gurus" like yourself ignore it.
A Druid's AC has good physical attributes to make up for its crappy overall combat ability. without stat increasers, the sucky BAB, low hd, and overall lack of combat feats would turn it into a speed bump even faster then it is. It can't do the Fighter's job at all well unless buffed to the moon, and if you buff the Fighter to the moon, well, that only makes people complain the fighter needs buffs.
The AC is very gear dependent...it has to have a Druid with it to be anything approaching viable.
Sucky BAB? I mean it's 3/4 there, that's average. Unless I guess rogues and monks and swordsages all are sucky BAB too. Low HD? It's typically only 2 behind the player levels, hardly "low." Lack of combat feats? Must suck to be a barbarian, I mean they have the same number of feats as an animal companion.
But let's look at some numbers, SRD only Base, unbuffed, unequipped Animal Companions compared to the presented fighter:
Level 1
But let's look at some numbers, SRD only Base, unbuffed, unequipped Animal Companions compared to the presented fighter:
The Grimace's three cents agrees with the mathematics, but would like to point something out. You omit pieces of information like attack bonus, and weapon damage. These are quite important things to have when comparing an armed human to a large cat. Also, your fighter didn't seem to have any feats! Other than Improved initiative, I'll admit, but irregardless (which means the same thing as regardless, oddly enough), This could have been a comparison between a warrior and an animal companion!
The warrior would even have more hp if he used all of his feats for levels on toughness (improved toughness, or giants toughness aren't core, but w/e)
Which is astounding because you know, the math has been done over and over, and self-proclaimed "gurus" like yourself ignore it.
Oh, I've been on the board for years, and have taken part in many fighter threads, yet never have I seen 'good' math.
(1) your entire posts stats something already known: CoDZilla is better then a default fighter.
So at first level the example fighter is basically equal to the basic animal companion.
(1')Your post forgets that it is still a standard action to direct the riding dog while directing the fighter is a free action.
(1'')And you assume the riding dog already knows all his tricks?
(1''')I'm missing feats? (human fighter gets 3 of them; dog only gets 1)
Boosting is always the solution with you spellcasters ... I feel sad for you people. I hope you never encounter dispelling (and all its variants, dealing damage for each dispelled spell, placing the dispelled spell on the caster, ...) BBEGs, or BBEGs who use natural AMFs -- god forbid that's SOO CHEATING!!! -- or attacking while your spellcasters prepare their spells ...
Frontliners need 1 thing: to be able to guard the frontline, any day, any hour, any situation. A booster animal companion just doesn't meet that criteria IMO.
Originally posted by Previn
Sucky BAB? I mean it's 3/4 there, that's average. Unless I guess rogues and monks and swordsages all are sucky BAB too. Low HD? It's typically only 2 behind the player levels, hardly "low." Lack of combat feats? Must suck to be a barbarian, I mean they have the same number of feats as an animal companion.
But let's look at some numbers, SRD only Base, unbuffed, unequipped Animal Companions compared to the presented fighter:
Yes, 3/4 is a sucky BAB attack bonus.
"Why?" You ask?
Lets look at some challenges. NPC; 20th level of any class. average AC... will say about 28 (+2 dex, +10 armour/shield, +6 items)
On average a 15 BAB will hit this guy with a 10 (that is assuming at least a +10 bonus to attack via stat, weapon, and other; total of +25 to hit) on his first two attacks. The fighter will hit three times. Guys like this rarely pose a challenge though.
Now we'll look at stuff you want to hit, but are unable to.
Ancient Wyrm dragon (40-46 AC, unbuffed)
Your 3/4 BAB will hit this AC on average once; you won't be able to power attack, or anything. Playing shot for shot, as every single 3/4 BAB class has a hit dice that is single digits only means you lose. Who cares if you do 1.5 times what the full BAB guy does for damage per hit; you have to hit in order to make it count.
Full BAB guy hits with 50% of his attacks, doing 1.25 times your damage thanks to his higher hit ratio; and I'm being generous saying your bonus to hit on top of BAB is equal to his. This is rarely the case. The full BAB guy usually will have another +5 on top of yours.
Even against fighter types, you could be looking at a potential 45 AC (+13 armour, +3 stat, +10 items, +9 shield), without any really crazy class abilities, feats, etc... You'd hit him once for every three times he hits you. And since he's got more hit points (unbuffed; buffing them is easy enough though), you're in a totally losing battle here; this barely cost him 2/7th his gold at 20th BTW.
So a 3/4 BAB IS "sucky", cause everything you want to...no, NEED to hit is out of your league.
10th level fighter with a +14 to attack? yeah, if he were an NPC warrior. You're looking at +4 from stat, +2 from weapon, and +1 from skill on average; that puts your long sword at +17/+12; TWF +13/+13/+8/+8.
A fighter can use ranged weapons, reach weapons, etc... giving it the clear advantage against your animals; not to mention tower shields. Fighters aren't stupid; they have other abilities than attack/flee.
See, PCs and NPCs have this thing called gear. They also have this other thing called intelligence, which puts them leaps and bounds ahead of your animal companions.
Besides, not every druid has the riding dog as a companion, and comparing the best a druid can get at level one against the most average of all fighters is really slanting the old graphs in your favor.
D&D is still shedding Gygaxian philosophy, where the fighters are there to watch wizards do awesome things.
Fighters are stuck in the dumb brute category. If you're unhappy with it... Tome of Battle easily replaces fighters. Just strike the class from memory or make the fighter replace warrior on the NPC list.
As for some of the arguments on the validity of fighters:
1) I chose SRD only because I had limited space and time. In a core only environment, the fighter does just fine. The term "optimized" is thrown around quite a bit, incorrectly I might add. Optimized does not mean most powerful ever. It means that you take the type of build you want and make it work to it's maximum effectiveness. This means that a fighter can be optimized to do very well. The example fighter I gave is not optimized and he can hold his own.
2) When I worked out the skills, I used the Take 10/20 rule and the DCs set in the PHB. Anything outside Core means nothing to the discussion at hand. I was trying to show that the fighter can work just fine with his skill points. Would I like to see more skill points, yes. Are they necessary for a decent fighter, no.
3) I can put up a build for each of the archetypes I mentioned. It is important for the player and DM to work together to make sure that the character fits in the campaign. If someone brings a swashbuckler to a dragonslaying campaign, he may find that he has some issues. The player that does not talk to his DM is a fool and a DM that doesn't talk to his players does not give the best game he can.
4) The animal companion/fighter comparison does not show me that the fighter is weak. It shows me two things:
a) The animal companion ability of the druid is actually too strong (this holds for most levels comparing to any non-caster class).
b) It skips other, important things such as gear feats, skills, and proper roleplaying (the dog has only an Intelligence of 2 for example). Remember that the druid needs to share his gear with the companion. Also the druid that focuses on buffing his companion is not focused on healing or other things (limited number of spells/day and all that).
Don't get me wrong, I think the animal companion should be useful. However, if the druid took an animal that was not a companion and buffed it, the EL would actually be higher. This is a flaw with the design of the druid class, not a flaw with the fighter class.
5) The commander role is just that, someone who commands others. One does not need to be a bard, paladin, cleric, or any other class. Commanders are leaders. I have worked with commanders in many walks of life, including military. I can tell you, without a doubt, that a commander does not need to have any of the special abilities mentioned. He doesn't even need a high Charisma (although this certainly does help).
6) Ghostwheel has it right, but not as it applies to fighters (or any other class). Instead, Ghostwheel is right as it applies to characters. I rarely play a single classed character. Instead, I find the concept I want and take a little bit from this class, a little from that class, and I make things work as best I can. I don't think people should limit their character creation to class/race combo. They should instead limit themselves to concept which gives them more options and flexibility. In addition, the character seems more organic, changing a bit as life moves on but staying focused on the goal.
It should be noted that I do not think the fighter is the end-all-be-all of classes. In fact, I don't play them often at all. I just don't think they are as bad as people claim. Too often people grip with their emotions and can't put their claims to any real test. Previn brought out some numbers. From one point of view, he is correct. From another, he is way off base. One thing to note is that the fighter beats out his companion. The fighter is not yet buffed much (and nothing has come from the party at all). If the fighter gets the same/similar buffs as the companion, the fighter will once again move ahead in the numbers. Also note that the fighter is more flexible since he is humanoid. This allows him to use a wider variety of gear and can use skills the companion can never use (almost any social skill).
The purpose of the article was not to argue with others on how the fighter compares to other classes (that's for the Class Board). The purpose was to show that the fighter is not as bad off as others claim and to dismiss some of the myths (there are quite a few, like the one about skills and not being able to handle high DCs for saves). In addition, it was to show how to build a fighter, at least the way I would build one.
You omit pieces of information like attack bonus, and weapon damage. These are quite important things to have when comparing an armed human to a large cat. Also, your fighter didn't seem to have any feats! Other than Improved initiative, I'll admit, but irregardless (which means the same thing as regardless, oddly enough), This could have been a comparison between a warrior and an animal companion!
I HIGHLY suggest you re-read then since I took the presented fighter DIRECTLY from Bob's listing with feats and equipment intact. I also did list attack bonuses and weapon damage explicitly.
(1) your entire posts stats something already known: CoDZilla is better then a default fighter.
Incorrect. I never bring the druid into the equation. I don't use spell or buff or equipment in the comparison for the animal companion.
(1')Your post forgets that it is still a standard action to direct the riding dog while directing the fighter is a free action.
Which is incorrect since a druid can direct the companion as a free action. See the Link EX ability in the druid entry.
(1'')And you assume the riding dog already knows all his tricks?
I suggest you read the Bonus tricks section under the druid animal companion listing since "These bonus tricks don’t require any training time or Handle Animal checks, and they don’t count against the normal limit of tricks known by the animal. The druid selects these bonus tricks, and once selected, they can’t be changed."
(1''')I'm missing feats? (human fighter gets 3 of them; dog only gets 1)
No feats are missing, I used Bob's fighter example exactly. Whatever feats Bob's fighter has, the example fighter has. Whatever feats the base companion has, the example companion has.
Boosting is always the solution with you spellcasters ... I feel sad for you people. I hope you never encounter dispelling (and all its variants, dealing damage for each dispelled spell, placing the dispelled spell on the caster, ...) BBEGs, or BBEGs who use natural AMFs -- god forbid that's SOO CHEATING!!! -- or attacking while your spellcasters prepare their spells ...
Boosters? Who boosted anything? The comparison companions don't have anything extra on the companion. In fact I welcome the AMF since that almost invariably puts the animal companions above the fighter in raw combat ability. Anymore fallacies?
4) The animal companion/fighter comparison does not show me that the fighter is weak. It shows me two things:
a) The animal companion ability of the druid is actually too strong (this holds for most levels comparing to any non-caster class).
b) It skips other, important things such as gear feats, skills, and proper roleplaying (the dog has only an Intelligence of 2 for example). Remember that the druid needs to share his gear with the companion. Also the druid that focuses on buffing his companion is not focused on healing or other things (limited number of spells/day and all that).
Don't get me wrong, I think the animal companion should be useful. However, if the druid took an animal that was not a companion and buffed it, the EL would actually be higher. This is a flaw with the design of the druid class, not a flaw with the fighter class.
You seem to be the only one who understood the comparison.
I agree with A.
As for B, I do have some issues with it. The companion has it's own set of skills and feats in addition to the druids, and I am taking the fighter feats into consideration (your exact feat selection in fact). Gearwise, depends. It's not any more of a disadvantage to gear up the companion than it is a mount, and no one balks at that. In fact a druid could use said companion as a mount,.
Buffing wise, it's not a great expenditure of resources, a single spell every few fights, if that. Buffing the AC would mostly be an issue at lower levels (due to limited spells per day) where they don't really needs buffs.
The biggest draw back is indeed the low INT. But there are intelligent animal companions available for druids (elementals, Displacer Beasts, Unicorns etc), and odd things like casting a +4 int spell on the companion.
One thing I would add is that the fighter typically has the benefit of being medium sized while the druid companions typically are large or bigger. It really comes down to what the role you're trying to fill is when you take the fighter and animal companion.
In this particular case I'm not arguing for animal companions to replace fighters but against the constant fallacy that the animal companion is strictly inferior to the fighter in melee combat roles, which is very clearly not the case.
Previn brought out some numbers. From one point of view, he is correct. From another, he is way off base. One thing to note is that the fighter beats out his companion. The fighter is not yet buffed much (and nothing has come from the party at all). If the fighter gets the same/similar buffs as the companion, the fighter will once again move ahead in the numbers. Also note that the fighter is more flexible since he is humanoid. This allows him to use a wider variety of gear and can use skills the companion can never use (almost any social skill).
Ah, I missed this part in my response. Guess I'll have to sling another out real quick.
Bob, the presented animal companion as no buffs in any form and no gear in any form. The big buff that the companion is likely to get (animal growth) is not applicable to the fighter. Yes, the basic, unbuffed, unequipped animal companion is slightly underperforming compared to the fighter in this example.
As for the gear part, again it depends on the companion. An ape would be capable of using the same equipment. An air elemental companion would be able to use any humanoid equipment.
As for social skills, the animal companion is part of the druid class. The druid should be more than capable of taking care of the social aspect should they so choose, assuming they don't pick a companion that is capable of social interaction (which do exists).
Again, choice of roles is going to determine what companion you choose and how effective it is. Same as for a fighter.
The main problem is that all the best buffs can't be given to your allies, only to yourself/animal companion. And you have to count the buff as part of the spellcaster's power, not the fighter's.
That said, when you attempt to build the above four using fighter class (as in, majority of fighter class) you won't be good at your job, even remotely good. I won't even go into lack of options and general disinterest/lack of motivation compared to other classes. And when fighter fails at producing a scout or brawler who is useful to the party, the motivation to play one is gone. The failure to produce an exotic weapon master is to be blamed on weapons rather than any class though.
So for me, fighter can represent some things, but nowhere near the diversity that it claims, nor is it in any right the "general purpose fighting man" as the class says. But now that it is being relatively fixed with newer books (and hopefully new edition too) I couldn't care less.
p.s. To the debate above: doesn't the druid direct his companion as a free action while it is a move action for all other classes?
p.s. To the debate above: doesn't the druid direct his companion as a free action while it is a move action for all other classes?
Link(ex). A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action, or push it as a move action, even if she doesn’t have any ranks in the Handle Animal skill.
And in the weeks it take to teach the pet every trick in the book (handle is for tricks it knows, push is for skills it doesn't know), the fighter will go and earn himself a level of 4 or 5 ...
And why not compare the animal companion to a good fighter build?
Show
feats:
- weapon focus, spec, greater focus, greater spec and melee weapon mastery, weapon supremacy
- Combat focus, Combat Vigor and Combat stability,
- heavy armour specialization,
- power attack, cleave, leap attack, improved bull rush, shock trooper,
- endurance and steadfast determination
- some diversity feat like blind fighting, or leadership, ...
- leadership would be nice if we still got a feat (from human for example)
items:
- a nice +5 heavy fortification mithral full plate and gloves of dex, to get a +3 dex modifier (together with heavy armor specialisation, this gives AC +13 armor, +3 dex and DR 2/-)
- an adamantine +5 wounding ghost touch scythe, locked gauntlets,
- animated +5 shield,
- belt of gaint strength+6, amulet of health +6, having read a book+5 STR and a book +5 con
- helm of teleportation, winged boots, a ioun stone +1 insight bonus to AC,
- ring of protection +5, cloak of resistance +5
- a ioun stone +2 INT would also be nice
- weapon focus, spec, greater focus, greater spec and melee weapon mastery, weapon supremacy
- Combat focus, Combat Vigor and Combat stability,
- heavy armour specialization,
- power attack, cleave, leap attack, improved bull rush, shock trooper,
- endurance and steadfast determination
- some diversity feat like blind fighting, or leadership, ...
- leadership would be nice if we still got a feat (from human for example)
items:
- a nice +5 heavy fortification mithral full plate and gloves of dex, to get a +3 dex modifier (together with heavy armor specialisation, this gives AC +13 armor, +3 dex and DR 2/-)
- an adamantine +5 wounding ghost touch scythe, locked gauntlets,
- animated +5 shield,
- belt of gaint strength+6, amulet of health +6, having read a book+5 STR and a book +5 con
- helm of teleportation, winged boots, a ioun stone +1 insight bonus to AC,
- ring of protection +5, cloak of resistance +5
- a ioun stone +2 INT would also be nice
And in the weeks it take to teach the pet every trick in the book (handle is for tricks it knows, push is for skills it doesn't know), the fighter will go and earn himself a level of 4 or 5 ...
Because there is never downtime between adventures? Because depending on the companion you don't need to even teach it tricks? Druids can have intelligent companions through a variety of methods.
And why not compare the animal companion to a good fighter build?
And why not compare a good animal companion to a good fighter build?
items:
- a nice +5 heavy fortification mithral full plate and gloves of dex, to get a +3 dex modifier (together with heavy armor specialisation, this gives AC +13 armor, +3 dex and DR 2/-)
- an adamantine +5 wounding ghost touch scythe, locked gauntlets,
- animated +5 shield,
- belt of gaint strength+6, amulet of health +6, having read a book+5 STR and a book +5 con
- helm of teleportation, winged boots, a ioun stone +1 insight bonus to AC,
- ring of protection +5, cloak of resistance +5
- a ioun stone +2 INT would also be nice
Gold Spent: (760,00 for a 20th character)
+5 tome x2 = 274,000
+6 stat item x3 = 108,000 (382,000 basically half a 20th character's gold already)
+5 animate Shield = 49,000+ (431,000)
+5 fortification heavy mithirl full plate = 110,650+ (541,650)
+5 adamantine wounding ghost touch scythe, 203,318+ gp (744,968)
ioun stone +1 insight bonus to AC 5,000 (749,968)
And oops, you're out of money, unable to afford anything else on your list.
If you'd like to actually stat out (use the elite array) a "good" fighter build with correct wealth per level and state what it is doing in combat, I'll be more than happy to build a druid companion that matches or exceeds it without any buff spells. Probably for a pittance of the cost as well.
Note that the druid needs to stay within 5 ft of the animal companion, or the spells wear off; also note that at high level, you WILL encounter smart enemies, that notice a fully buffed and equipped animal companion, and a lesser equipped druid behind him (even wildshape only gives you +10 bonus on Disguise checks)
Don't make assumptions you clearly can't back up or support. First the above examples have no gear and no spells, so this entire statement is strawman argument. Second, I doubt you can tell simply by looking who has the more valuable gear. Third, I doubt most people can tell buffs just by looking. Fourth, I suggest you look up the Companion Spellbound feat, and finally I ask what you do about the druid riding his companion?
- reach and kill the druid or maze the druid, will not only stop the spells, but also leave an animal companion without anyone to direct it (illusion or enchantment time ...).
(one could also opt for bull rush or awesome slam the druid, or grappling move ... )
Assuming that the companion wasn't already directed (in which case it wouldn't stop anyways) you're still going to have to deal with it. Also assuming that the companion isn't intelligent and able to act without having the druid have to direct it. So at the very least that's more than the mazed/dead fighter. The fact that you also assume the druid is not a melee powerhouse via wildshape which every druid has and can do equally well is almost ludicrous in and of itself.
I could really go on for pages and pages about your assumptions (bull rush the druid wildshaped into a dire polar bear/huge elemental! That will work! Ooooh! Grapple it, because that's going to work even better! :rolleyes
but there's not a lot of reason to right now since the holes are pretty obvious.Second, I doubt you can tell simply by looking who has the more valuable gear. Third, I doubt most people can tell buffs just by looking.
Spot vs. Disguise check. I recon most druids have little ranks in disguise; while most monsters have ranks in spot ... with only a +10 on disguise from wildshape, most enemies can see nicely which is a real bear, and which is the polymorphed/wildshaped character
I could really go on for pages and pages about your assumptions (bull rush the druid wildshaped into a dire polar bear/huge elemental! That will work! Ooooh! Grapple it, because that's going to work even better! :rolleyes
Actually, adding a small note: a fighter suddenly became much better at grappling, since weapon supremacy: it makes it possible for him to use his main weapon in a grapple (and instead of rolling opposing grapple checks, he uses the -4 to hit option ... ).
And About Grapple
The druid's (huge elemental you say? (since I don't find the dire polar bear) )
- medium BAB,
- huge size (which only gives+8)
- enhanced strength, (33 for earth elementals, boost by item I presume = +14 mod)
Doesn't make a huge difference, for some fighters (as example, the fighter I generally use for all my examples: the one from my sig in fighter vs barbarian thread (note that this build only fills in the bonus feats of the fighter; not the feats received at lvl 1,3,6,9,...) ):
- high BAB (5 higher then the druid at lvl 20)
- Combat stability gives him +8 on grapple/bull rush
- good strength (19 (standard array +4 from level), +6 item +5 book) = +10 mod)
which gives the fighter a +1 advantage at lvl 20
And this isn't even a fighter specialized on grappling (without the impr grapple feat, ...) ... and medium size (think goliath, half-ogre or enlarge person ...)
IMO druids should think twice about thinking they are safe from grappling ...
Spot vs. Disguise check. I recon most druids have little ranks in disguise; while most monsters have ranks in spot ... with only a +10 on disguise from wildshape, most enemies can see nicely which is a real bear, and which is the polymorphed/wildshaped character
Then I highly suggest you read Spot since it does no such thing as you are describing:
Spot (Wis)
Check
The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.
A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it.
Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise, and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying.
Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant).
I reiterate once again, you cannot tell just by looking the value of gear, nor to detect wildshape (which is not a disguise).
Actually, adding a small note: a fighter suddenly became much better at grappling, since weapon supremacy: it makes it possible for him to use his main weapon in a grapple (and instead of rolling opposing grapple checks, he uses the -4 to hit option ... ).
Actually, no it doesn't make him better at grappling, it makes him better when he is grappled.
And About Grapple
The druid's (huge elemental you say? (since I don't find the dire polar bear) )
Try reading the PHB2 druid section, which will point you to frostburn where the Dire Polar Bear is.
- medium BAB,
- huge size (which only gives+8)
- enhanced strength, (33 for earth elementals, boost by item I presume = +14 mod)
Doesn't make a huge difference, for some fighters (as example, the fighter I generally use for all my examples: the one from my sig in fighter vs barbarian thread (note that this build only fills in the bonus feats of the fighter; not the feats received at lvl 1,3,6,9,...) ):
- high BAB (5 higher then the druid at lvl 20)
- Combat stability gives him +8 on grapple/bull rush
- good strength (19 (standard array +4 from level), +6 item +5 book) = +10 mod)
which gives the fighter a +1 advantage at lvl 20
And this isn't even a fighter specialized on grappling (without the impr grapple feat, ...) ... and medium size (think goliath, half-ogre or enlarge person ...)
(one could also opt for bull rush or awesome slam the druid, or grappling move ... )
You said that grappling the druid was a good idea. You suddenly completely reversed your position to us grappling you, which I never suggested (It is most of the time simpler, quicker and easier to just kill the target than waste time with grappling).
But let's go on for thoroughness on the original statement that you should grapple the companion (and by extension the druid)....
Basic companions with no feats or items will have the following:
Air Elemental: Flight, Whirlwind Form (impossible to grapple it), 15' reach and Combat Reflexes to back it up with 10 AoO and a +24 to the grapple check anyways.
Earth Elemental: Stays in the ground (Earth Glide), where you can't reach it anyways and a +29 on the grapple check.
Dire Polar Bear: 10' reach and +35 to grapple checks.
Let's see how well your fighter feats serve you, assuming a base of 16 str, +5 levels, +11 (tome/item) = +12 str mod.
Your fighter will have (given his feats and equipment) a +32 on offensive grappling, and a +40 for opposed grapple checks.
Your chance to start, and maintain a grapple on any of the above listed companions is pathetic, almost literally being a dice roll. Though you can beat the Air Elemental (but only sometimes), it can immediately change into a whirilwind and your grapple was suddenly a very stupid thing to do. The Earth Elemental stays in the ground anyways, only coming out when forced, which you clearly can't do, and even if you could it's a toss up if you could grapple it (roll d20+3, did you beat the companions d20 roll?). Same for the Dire Polar Bear, except that while it can't avoid the grapple it's even harder to beat in order to grapple it since it's the one with the bonus, not you.
Of course all of these companions have no gear or buffs. The druid, naked and with no buffs will have an additional +3 to all the grapple mod listed above( Air=+27, Earth=+32, Polar Bear=+38). I could go on, but I think it's pretty clear where it will end up.
IMO druids should think twice about thinking they are safe from grappling ...
Grappling them is a pot shot at best (assuming you can even get to or grapple them re:elemental forms, and pure idiocy at worst.
Spot vs. Disguise check. I recon most druids have little ranks in disguise; while most monsters have ranks in spot ... with only a +10 on disguise from wildshape, most enemies can see nicely which is a real bear, and which is the polymorphed/wildshaped characterActually, adding a small note: a fighter suddenly became much better at grappling, since weapon supremacy: it makes it possible for him to use his main weapon in a grapple (and instead of rolling opposing grapple checks, he uses the -4 to hit option ... ).
And About Grapple
The druid's (huge elemental you say? (since I don't find the dire polar bear) )
- medium BAB,
- huge size (which only gives+8)
- enhanced strength, (33 for earth elementals, boost by item I presume = +14 mod)
Doesn't make a huge difference, for some fighters (as example, the fighter I generally use for all my examples: the one from my sig in fighter vs barbarian thread (note that this build only fills in the bonus feats of the fighter; not the feats received at lvl 1,3,6,9,...) ):
- high BAB (5 higher then the druid at lvl 20)
- Combat stability gives him +8 on grapple/bull rush
- good strength (19 (standard array +4 from level), +6 item +5 book) = +10 mod)
which gives the fighter a +1 advantage at lvl 20
And this isn't even a fighter specialized on grappling (without the impr grapple feat, ...) ... and medium size (think goliath, half-ogre or enlarge person ...)
IMO druids should think twice about thinking they are safe from grappling ...
Correct on most parts. The druid isn't going to be able to appear as a normal bear to most watchers. He acts wrong, probably has 'off' fur patterns, etc...he's not going to be just another elemental/bear.
This all of course is putting down the fact that any fighter that wants to grapple will have Improved Grapple, for a +4 bonus, and will, at that level, be enlarged, if not outright polymorphed by the party wizard or a potion of poly self, for anywhere from +6 to +20 on the check, depending on how new stats play out, and he'll suddenly develop reach. He'll also have Close-Quarters fighting for when the enemy wants to grapple, which guarantees he only grapples when HE wants to, and which generates more dmg. Robilar's Gambit alone will make any full attacking Druid or AC cry.
Earth elemental form is the worst one for a druid to take. They will constantly have the temptation to earth glide, which sticks them inside the ground and takes them completely out of the battle, unable to do something (they have to emerge to cast spells and fight).
Air Elemental form is kind of nice, since you are effectively a gas, but while in whirlwind the Elemental can't attack, and doesn't get it's huge number of AoO's, and it's reach means nothing. Out of whirlwind, without the ability to capitalize on all those AoO's with feats that generate more of them, the Air Elem's reach is meaningless, and it probably can't hit the fighter at that level, anyway.
Fire and Water elemental are, of course, non-issues, and Dire Animal Companions that are not buffed to the moon are meat on the plate for a fighter in his standard array of gear....and when buffed to the moon are meat for a similarly buffed fighter.
A Druid uses his spells to try and gain the base advantages of a melee class for himself and his animal companion (Th, Dmg, High AC). The Fighter uses gold to selectively take the best spellcasting abilities (Enlarge, Polymorphing, etc) to buff his own skills beyond what either can match.
It's all a shooting match.
Any druid or AC stuck in close combat for a fighter's full attack option deserves what happens to them.
====Aelryinth
Actually, no it doesn't make him better at grappling, it makes him better when he is grappled.
This may not be the best place to bring this up, but doesn't escaping from a grapple count as a grapple check made against you? Therefor, wouldn't combat Stability assist in maintaining a grapple once it's been initiated (regardless of who initiated it). With the addition of weapon sup, this fighter's clutches can be a very dangerous place to be.
You said that grappling the druid was a good idea. You suddenly completely reversed your position to us grappling you, which I never suggested (It is most of the time simpler, quicker and easier to just kill the target than waste time with grappling).
Actually, every companion you used in the comparison to fighters above had improved grab, and relied on that (or charging) to get rake damage. So actually, you did, in a way, suggest you doing the grapples, well, your companion anyways.
But let's go on for thoroughness on the original statement that you should grapple the companion (and by extension the druid)....
Basic companions with no feats or items will have the following:
Did you mean basic druid forms, or are you talking different companions then mentioned above (not calling you out on anything, Just trying to clarify. it's a different fighter you're comparing it to after all, so making you stick to the other companions isn't fair. Though I am curious, if these are companions, how do these companions compare to the fighter in the HP/AC/Damage departments? Or do they give up a lot in those regards to be safe from the grapples?)
Air Elemental: Flight, Whirlwind Form (impossible to grapple it), 15' reach and Combat Reflexes to back it up with 10 AoO and a +24 to the grapple check anyways.
Earth Elemental: Stays in the ground (Earth Glide), where you can't reach it anyways and a +29 on the grapple check.
Dire Polar Bear: 10' reach and +35 to grapple checks.
Let's see how well your fighter feats serve you, assuming a base of 16 str, +5 levels, +11 (tome/item) = +12 str mod.
Your fighter will have (given his feats and equipment) a +32 on offensive grappling, and a +40 for opposed grapple checks.
Your chance to start, and maintain a grapple on any of the above listed companions is pathetic, almost literally being a dice roll. Though you can beat the Air Elemental (but only sometimes), it can immediately change into a whirilwind and your grapple was suddenly a very stupid thing to do. The Earth Elemental stays in the ground anyways, only coming out when forced, which you clearly can't do, and even if you could it's a toss up if you could grapple it (roll d20+3, did you beat the companions d20 roll?). Same for the Dire Polar Bear, except that while it can't avoid the grapple it's even harder to beat in order to grapple it since it's the one with the bonus, not you.
As mentioned above, as far as I'm aware, he actually has that +40 to maintain the grapple, but only has +32 to do anything in the grapple on his turn, but if he has Weapon Sup, he'll only need to roll grapple checks to resist the opposing escape attempt, and can full attack on his turn. This will be hell for that polar bear, who will likely initiate the grapple itself, then find itself at a surprising disadvantage when attempting to escape (+5 is not huge, but still surprising considering).
The air elemental's whirlwind makes grappling difficult, it's actually decent against a grappler (except its damage output at high levels is dismal, certainly not "replace fighter" worthy).
Earth elemental's earth glide will help it (for awhile) prevent getting grappled in the first place, but once it is, it needs to make opposed grapple checks to move (including gliding), at which point it is at a -11 disadvantage, which is fairly significant.
All that said, I thought this was about the companion replacing the fighter? not them fighting against each other. That said (given my understanding of combat stability and the inclusion of weapon Sup), the fighter appears to be a superior grappler in comparison to the companion in these cases, as to how it fairs in the other departments, I suspect (given the rather dismal damage of elementals), the fighter comes out on top in damage, the rest /shrug.
Of course all of these companions have no gear or buffs. The druid, naked and with no buffs will have an additional +3 to all the grapple mod listed above( Air=+27, Earth=+32, Polar Bear=+38). I could go on, but I think it's pretty clear where it will end up.
Again, not sure if you're talking about elemental companions or wild shaped form druids (or both?)?
Grappling them is a pot shot at best (assuming you can even get to or grapple them re:elemental forms, and pure idiocy at worst.
This is talking tactics in a void. No consideration for terrain, group factors or other tricks. It's also talking arena style comparison.
With all that said, It bothers me people always come back to the druid to try and put the fighter down. It's acknowledged by many that the druid is overpowered. It can put virtually any class to shame in a comparison (including clerics, depending on the level of optimization you choose to use). So really, what does comparing fighters to a broken class prove about the fighter?
I reiterate once again, you cannot tell just by looking the value of gear, nor to detect wildshape (which is not a disguise).
Then I highly suggest you read Wildshape again: why does it give you +10 on disguise checks?
Air Elemental: Flight, Whirlwind Form (impossible to grapple it), 15' reach and Combat Reflexes to back it up with 10 AoO and a +24 to the grapple check anyways.
- Whirlwind form: (from SRD: An elemental in whirlwind form cannot make slam attacks and does not threaten the area around it. ), so it can't grapple either, since it can't make an initial touch attack ...
- And Combat Reflexes still only gives 1 AoO per round against 1
- +24 grapple doesn't do much against the +38 of the fighter ...
Earth Elemental: Stays in the ground (Earth Glide), where you can't reach it anyways and a +29 on the grapple check.
And using earth glide, it also loses its line of sight to the opponents; and it loses all gear, and still no match for a fighter's +38 grapple check grapple.
Your chance to start, and maintain a grapple on any of the above listed companions is pathetic, almost literally being a dice roll. Though you can beat the Air Elemental (but only sometimes), it can immediately change into a whirilwind and your grapple was suddenly a very stupid thing to do. The Earth Elemental stays in the ground anyways, only coming out when forced, which you clearly can't do, and even if you could it's a toss up if you could grapple it (roll d20+3, did you beat the companions d20 roll?). Same for the Dire Polar Bear, except that while it can't avoid the grapple it's even harder to beat in order to grapple it since it's the one with the bonus, not you.
- Starting a whirlwind while grappling? Please direct me to 'things to do while in a grapple: using a supernatural ability' ? the SRD states: Activate a Magic Item, Attack Your Opponent, Cast a Spell, Damage Your Opponent, Draw a Light Weapon, Escape from Grapple, Move, Retrieve a Spell Component, Pin Your Opponent, Break Another’s Pin and Use Opponent’s Weapon.
- An earth elemental that stays underground is not a challenge: since the earth elemental can't see the opponent either.
- Dire Polar bear ... it wouldn't surprise me if the critter has improved grapple. Either way, while in grapple it receives full attacks of the fighter with only a -4 penalty (see grapple: Attack Your Opponent), in combination with weapon supremacy. I reckon it won't want to stay in grapple for long. Can a dire polar bear do something else then attack or grapple?
Of course all of these companions have no gear or buffs. The druid, naked and with no buffs will have an additional +3 to all the grapple mod listed above( Air=+27, Earth=+32, Polar Bear=+38). I could go on, but I think it's pretty clear where it will end up.
Yep: whirlwind unable to use, earth glide no line of sight nor items; polar dire bear (doesn't that creature have improved grapple?)
Grappling them is a pot shot at best (assuming you can even get to or grapple them re:elemental forms, and pure idiocy at worst.
I'm still missing proof of that: the fighter build I proposed hasn't used its level feats (1,3,6,...) (impr grapple, ... ); and isn't powerplayed or built for grapple.
(Try
- fighter 18/barbarian 1/frenzied berserker 1
- cool template (loth touched, stone template, ...) or a large race
- template/prestige class specifically for grappling.)
I could, and I'm sure you could too, and it is this distinction that puts the Fighter into the "best fighter" category.
This distinction at it's base is the indicator of why the fighter is good. Remember, a fighter can shoot to death a companion without ever being attacked (barring certain companions). He has more combative versatility, despite taking a weapon focused path. He can be good at several combat styles if he chooses, or he might forgo one or two of these combat paths for mastery of a weapon.
The point is the fighter will be better than others at most other aspects of combat where those other classes will be pegged to one focused path. Your druid might be a master grappler, but my fighter will be no slouch at grappling, and he'll have mastery of the bow as well. can't grapple at range, which is what this guy could be specialized in keeping you at to attack.
The fighter in this situation though? He'll have the ability to turtle completely, providing immunity to that one style of fighting. Counters for everything, and the fighter will have more.
Druids' advantage is spells, not the fighter's area of expertise.
I do feel that there are some things that should be done to make the fighter a stronger class. I just don't think it is as bad as people claim. In fact, I would say that some of the other classes are too powerful (the druid and cleric both come immediately to mind). All the classes improve as we move away from Core (my article was Core centered). The problem with a few classes is that they improve based on what the player owns rather than what the character can own. Both clerics and druids (and to a lesser extent, paladins and rangers) get more power as the player spends his own money while most of the other classes need to wait for the character to save up his cash. Most classes don't have this advantage, and in fact this is a significant disadvantage because now the character needs to be able to be retrained possibly more than once per level.
This may not be the best place to bring this up, but doesn't escaping from a grapple count as a grapple check made against you? Therefor, wouldn't combat Stability assist in maintaining a grapple once it's been initiated (regardless of who initiated it). With the addition of weapon sup, this fighter's clutches can be a very dangerous place to be.
Escape from Grapple
You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).
Combat Stability
....
You gain a +4 bonus on checks to resist bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun and trip attempts made against you.
Actually, every companion you used in the comparison to fighters above had improved grab, and relied on that (or charging) to get rake damage. So actually, you did, in a way, suggest you doing the grapples, well, your companion anyways.
They get their rakes on a pounce attack with no grappling needed.
Did you mean basic druid forms, or are you talking different companions then mentioned above (not calling you out on anything, Just trying to clarify.
Basic companions with no feats or items will have the following:
it's a different fighter you're comparing it to after all, so making you stick to the other companions isn't fair. Though I am curious, if these are companions, how do these companions compare to the fighter in the HP/AC/Damage departments? Or do they give up a lot in those regards to be safe from the grapples?)
They don't give up anything. As for the HP/AC/Damage, I can't compare when there is nothing to compare to. I see no fighter builds short of Bob's.
As mentioned above, as far as I'm aware, he actually has that +40 to maintain the grapple, but only has +32 to do anything in the grapple on his turn, but if he has Weapon Sup, he'll only need to roll grapple checks to resist the opposing escape attempt, and can full attack on his turn. This will be hell for that polar bear, who will likely initiate the grapple itself, then find itself at a surprising disadvantage when attempting to escape (+5 is not huge, but still surprising considering).
Did you even read what you posted? " This will be hell for that polar bear, who will likely initiate the grapple itself, then find itself at a surprising disadvantage when attempting to escape...."
Besides which I've already said multiple times that the companions are more likely to simply kill the fighter than grapple. You're starting up another strawman argument that I should be grappling, which I've very, very clearly never tried to do, and have turned down as the best thing to do.
You also need to read Combat Stability. And the size difference prevents the medium sized fighter from grappling with them anyways (hence the reference to them being huge originally).
The air elemental's whirlwind makes grappling difficult, it's actually decent against a grappler (except its damage output at high levels is dismal, certainly not "replace fighter" worthy).
It's still equipment and buffless. I could easily tweak it out to be a very nasty damage dealer. As is, it's 3x as fast as the fighter, and has 15' reach along with fly-by attack and spring attack, the fighter can never ever hurt it if it just stays 15' in the air. As for replacing the fighter? Heck yes I'd take a decked out air elemental over the fighter for a spring attack/fly-by attack role.
Earth elemental's earth glide will help it (for awhile) prevent getting grappled in the first place, but once it is, it needs to make opposed grapple checks to move (including gliding), at which point it is at a -11 disadvantage, which is fairly significant.
A medium creature can't grapple it. It also would be almost impossible (actually completely impossible) for the scyth fighter to deal with it at all short of massive blindingly amazing luck.
All that said, I thought this was about the companion replacing the fighter? not them fighting against each other. That said (given my understanding of combat stability and the inclusion of weapon Sup), the fighter appears to be a superior grappler in comparison to the companion in these cases, as to how it fairs in the other departments, I suspect (given the rather dismal damage of elementals), the fighter comes out on top in damage, the rest /shrug.
Well, yes, in some situations, the Fighter, with lots feats for grappling and tons of gear, can be better than the ungeared, unbuffed companions, sometimes. As presented? Heck no.
Can the companion replace the fighter? Well, if I had an actual, stated out fighter to compare against, I'm pretty sure I could match or exceed it with a companion.
How convenient of you to have not posted anything like that to actually compare with, and then agree with your own conclusion.
This is talking tactics in a void. No consideration for terrain, group factors or other tricks. It's also talking arena style comparison.
It's the cleanest most accurate way to compare. Put the fighter in a situation, and the companion in the same situation, and basically nothing will change.
With all that said, It bothers me people always come back to the druid to try and put the fighter down. It's acknowledged by many that the druid is overpowered. It can put virtually any class to shame in a comparison (including clerics, depending on the level of optimization you choose to use). So really, what does comparing fighters to a broken class prove about the fighter?
The fact that we're not comparing to the druid, but the druid's animal companion. I'm saying I can take a CR 12ish creature and replace the fighter with it for much less funds than the fighter takes, and get the druid as a bonus on top of that.
Then I highly suggest you read Wildshape again: why does it give you +10 on disguise checks?
Wild Shape (Su)
At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.
Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.
The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.
A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)
A druid can use this ability more times per day at 6th, 7th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level, as noted on Table: The Druid. In addition, she gains the ability to take the shape of a Large animal at 8th level, a Tiny animal at 11th level, and a Huge animal at 15th level.
The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level.
At 12th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a plant creature with the same size restrictions as for animal forms. (A druid can’t use this ability to take the form of a plant that isn’t a creature.)
At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type.
At 18th level, a druid becomes able to assume elemental form twice per day, and at 20th level she can do so three times per day. At 20th level, a druid may use this wild shape ability to change into a Huge elemental.
Simple, it doesn't. I'll also point out that it is not mentioned in the Disguise text either.
Snipping of grappling stuff...
How about the point I was originally making before getting sidetracked:
Grappling has size limits. You can grab a creature of any size, but you cannot establish or maintain a hold on a creature that is two or more size categories bigger than you. For example, if you're a Medium creature, you can establish a hold only on a creature of Large size or smaller. Huge or bigger creatures are too big for you to grapple.
And
Grappling Requirements
The rules don't go into much detail about when you're capable of making grapple attacks. Common sense, however, suggests that because it involves grabbing and holding a foe, you need at least one hand free to do it.
Creatures that lack manipulative appendages can make grapple attacks if they have body parts they can wrap around foes or some means of clamping down on a target. For example, a snake can grapple by biting and wrapping its body around a foe.
So you can't use your 2 handed weapon while doing a grapple, you can't grapple the Dire Polar Bear, or the Air elemental, or the Earth Elemental.
Yep: whirlwind unable to use, earth glide no line of sight nor items; polar dire bear (doesn't that creature have improved grapple?)I'm still missing proof of that: the fighter build I proposed hasn't used its level feats (1,3,6,...) (impr grapple, ... ); and isn't powerplayed or built for grapple.
(Try
- fighter 18/barbarian 1/frenzied berserker 1
- cool template (loth touched, stone template, ...) or a large race
- template/prestige class specifically for grappling.)
1) You can't grapple the elemental. Further debate on this is for another time
2) Earth glide doesn't cause you to lose gear.
3) You don't know anything about the dire polar bear having never read it, and can't grapple it anyways.
4) Your proposed fighter uses 18 feats without Leadership. That's EVERY FEAT LEVEL ONES INCLUDED.
Anything else you want to make up in your little fantasy land?
Here's a question then Previn; could you build a fighter that could best a druid and his companion in combat (barring spells)?
Could I? Maybe. Just about anything I can think of to do with a fighter, I can do with a companion, if I poured the same funds into it, I'm relatively positive I could always make equivalent ones.
I could, and I'm sure you could too, and it is this distinction that puts the Fighter into the "best fighter" category.
Look at what you just did. You "guessed" that the fighter could "best" the druid and his companion (if you took away the spells) and then agreed with yourself with no proof what so ever, and now your going to go on and on about how this shows something for the next 2 paragraphs.
This distinction at it's base is the indicator of why the fighter is good. Remember, a fighter can shoot to death a companion without ever being attacked (barring certain companions). He has more combative versatility, despite taking a weapon focused path. He can be good at several combat styles if he chooses, or he might forgo one or two of these combat paths for mastery of a weapon.
Go go captain assumption. Why don't you post a fighter so we can do an actual comparison rather than the hand waving and self agreement you're doing now?
The point is the fighter will be better than others at most other aspects of combat where those other classes will be pegged to one focused path. Your druid might be a master grappler, but my fighter will be no slouch at grappling, and he'll have mastery of the bow as well. can't grapple at range, which is what this guy could be specialized in keeping you at to attack.
The fighter in this situation though? He'll have the ability to turtle completely, providing immunity to that one style of fighting. Counters for everything, and the fighter will have more.
Druids' advantage is spells, not the fighter's area of expertise.
Druid as a huge Air Elemental is a superb spring attacker with the mobility to back it up. Next fight he changes into a Dire Polar Bear and functions as a grappler, later he changes into an earth elemental and now he's a power attacking monster.
Of course you could head over to the optimization boards and post a fighter build and ask for a comparable druid and see where it goes....
All this back on forth is all fine and dandy, but none of it actually addresses what I brought up in the original post: the fighter is not as bad off as people claim. The fighter can hold his own in combat (which he is meant to do). The fighter can handle himself out of combat (my sample fighter used quite a few cross class skills just fine). The sample fighter used only a small portion of his available gear to accomplish all of this. The fighter is not worthless. It is not meant for everyone (just like spellcasters are not meant for everyone).
I agree. In a basic game with average players and typical encounters, the fighter is a fine class. It's still underpowered, but that's not apparent as people aren't trying to break the game, and in general aren't trying to hit that DC60 spell, or 80 attacks a round.
I do feel that there are some things that should be done to make the fighter a stronger class. I just don't think it is as bad as people claim.
This is something I often run into. I call the fighter one of the bottom 3 classes. At the same time, I also know a commoner can take down a balor in 1 round. Where you feel the fighter falls powerwise doesn't always mean much. It's playable (indeed anything is) and as long as your having fun, does it really matter?
In fact, I would say that some of the other classes are too powerful (the druid and cleric both come immediately to mind). All the classes improve as we move away from Core (my article was Core centered). The problem with a few classes is that they improve based on what the player owns rather than what the character can own. Both clerics and druids (and to a lesser extent, paladins and rangers) get more power as the player spends his own money while most of the other classes need to wait for the character to save up his cash. Most classes don't have this advantage, and in fact this is a significant disadvantage because now the character needs to be able to be retrained possibly more than once per level.
A typical riding dog cannot climb a tree and fire arrows at goblins.
Many of the builds I see are often pitted in arena like combat. Try taking the builds through some actual published adventures. Red Hand of Doom and Age of Worms are often ones I like to look at.
AS far as outside of combat is concerned there are many options a fighter has. Since a fighter may be interested in the Combat expertise feat treat he may pick up Jack-of-All-Trades from Complete Adventure. This opens huge abilities to the fighter and even if some else has a better modifier at least he can use Aid Another.