Pro:
Innate Casting:
This really is, in my opinion, the most attractive part of the entire class. The Sorcerer is not a wizard, they do not spend hours and hours pouring over dusty tomes of forgotten lore to force magic to work for them, they simply will it to be, and magic bends to fulfill their wishes. They are the raw magical beings of Third Edition, and are ideally suited, flavor wise, for the themed casters. Not the broad generalist Wizard, but a character that is focused in on a theme, be it fire, or lightning, earthquakes, or what-have-you. My all time favorite Sorcerer is a human Sorceress with the theme of storms, wind, and lightning. When done correctly, it doesn't really hurt the Sorcerer to specialize like this, as their limited spells known already force them to be very picky, so they do not lose nearly as much as a wizard by only learning themed magics.
Spontaneous Casting:
This is supposed to be the biggest boon to the class, the single most powerful function, the "Cast anything you know whenever you want it" ability. Again, this is wonderful from a flavor standpoint. You don't have to pick and choose your spells for the day like a Wizard pouring over his spellbook, you simply do it. Really reinforces the feeling that the character is innately magical, and not trying to force magic to do his bidding so much as he is guiding it into the desired effects.
Metamagic:
And then comes Metamagic. Often misunderstood so that some believe it takes an entire round to use metamagic (aka you start casting now, your spell goes off next round), that is not the case. Sorcerers using metamagic are merely having to use a full round action, meaning they are limited to a 5 foot step that round. And while some people still complain that this is too limiting to be worth using, they do not seem to understand that the Sorcerer, like the Wizard, should never have to run for their lives while casting so much as finding the best place on the field and rooting themselves for the fight (unless forced to move). No one ever seems to cry that an Archer character making a full attack is being too limited by a 5' step, and the Sorcerer only has this restriction a minority of the time, while the benefit is incredibly important. The Wizard must prepare his spells at the start of the day, including any metamagic that he/she may wish to use. If the wizard prepares a Silenced Fireball when he really needed a Stilled Fireball, he is left high and dry, whereas the Sorcerer can simply use any metamagic he knows on any spell he knows on the fly. No trying to outguess and metagame what the DM is going to throw at you that day, you just go with the flow.
Weapons:
Yes, the Sorcerer even gets to be a spellcaster with access to usable weapons. The Wizard is limited to essentially a dagger, the quarterstaff, and a light crossbow, whereas the Sorcerer can take any Simple weapon they want, including the most powerful simple weapons like the Spear and the Morningstar, along with maces and anything else that strikes the player's fancy. While the Sorcerer should be staying out of melee at all costs (more on that later), it is often a perfect way of demonstrating the character's personality. Is he or she a graceful spear wielder, or a more brutish maceman? A well played character's personality should and often is reflected in their choice of weapons.
Con:
While the Sorcerer is unique in his concept, the actual mechanics for realizing this concept are flawed.
Not That Innate:
The Sorcerer still requires material components to cast his spells, like a Wizard. After all we are told about how a Sorcerer merely wills magic to happen, and how he doesn't need arcane symbols and artificial crutches to cast, we find out that he does indeed still need artificial means to cast their spells. So while the Sorcerer is a might spontaneous caster, they are still rendered useless when they can't find a pinch of sand or a wad of bat poop. How exactly is this using force of will to cast with again?
Worldliness:
The description of the Sorcerer in the PHB makes it quite clear that they are intended to be worldlier than their Wizard cousins. They are supposed to be more street-smart and better with weapons since they don't spend their time in libraries with moldy tomes. This nets them, mechanically, their proficiency in Simple Weapons. But, its really a useless ability. With a d4 for hitdice and terrible BAB progression, the Sorcerer, like the Wizard, is dead as soon as they enter into melee. Couple this with the penalties the Sorcerer suffers for wearing armor, and you have nothing more than bait for a horrible trap. It makes it appear that the Sorcerer should be able to at least hit something in a fight, but he can't. Even with all of his supposed worldliness and training in weapons, he still can't use them.
Class Skills:
Description says that the Sorcerer is often the diplomat, or that they are good at bluffing their way past obstacles, or gathering information as the faceman of the party. With a naturally high Charisma score, this makes sense on the surface. Good strong personality, high ability bonuses to their checks, all looks good, until you realize that until 3.5, they did not have a single Charisma based class skill. Even post 3.5, they have only 1 class skill based on Charisma, Bluff, whereas the description seems to heavily push Diplomacy. At the very least, one would expect a choice in which Cha skill they received as a class skill similar to the Expert, but no. The Sorcerer has the Wizard skill list minus the Knowledge skills, which makes sense since they are not spending time in libraries. However, these should have been replaced with more "streetsmart" skills to represent some of the things proposed in the description.
Skill Points:
The Sorcerer appears to have been cloned off of the Wizard, and this is where that fact comes back to bite him in the butt. The Wizard is virtually guaranteed to have an Intelligence of at least a 16, or +3 skillpoints per level, sometimes even +4 per level. So even though the Wizard gets by just fine with 2 skillpoints per level, its because his Intelligence offsets the low skills. The Sorcerer, however, will usually be putting their second highest ability into Dexterity to help with their ranged touch attack spells and their armor class. Chances are, the Sorcerer is going to have a more normal Intelligence score, and this creates big problems. A non-human Sorcerer of average Intelligence (aka Int 10) is only going to get 2 skillpoints per level. The Sorcerer, like the Wizard, will need to keep three skills maxed out to be effective, Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), and Concentration. Unless they put a higher score into Intelligence, they are incable of keeping even their core skills up to par. This is similar to a Rogue only getting enough skillpoints to max Open Lock or Disable Device, but not both, when it is their most important skill set. So, even if the Sorcerer did have more Charisma based class skills, they are wholly incapable to take advantage of them without artificially inflating their skillpoints by being a human or sacrificing another stat just to keep up.
Lack of Class Abilities:
To put it simply, the Sorcerer gets all of it's class abilities at level 1. While the Wizards get free metamagic as they level, the Sorcerer gets nothing. For the Wizard, its assumed that the metamagic is an extension on their ongoing research into magic. By extension, one would think that the Sorcerer should also become more adept at their magical ways, even if its just gaining Prestidigitation as a spell-like ability to represent their mastery over magic. But they don't. The Sorcerer has absolutely no reason to stay a Sorcerer, as any PrC that grants full spellcasting progression offers everything the core Sorcerer does and more. They give up absolutely nothing to enter PrC in the form of level dependant abilities, save perhaps their Familiar.
PrC:
To be totally blunt about it, there are no Sorcerer Prestige Classes. At all. There are Wizard PrC that the Sorcerer can take if they work at it, to get in through the back door as it were. When I say no Sorcerer PrC, I mean that there are no PrC a Sorcerer can qualify for without copying the skills and abilities of a Wizard that still give full caster progression (save one, the Candle Caster, which turns them into an alternate scroll scribing wizard clone anyway). The full progression PrC almost always require a Knowledge skill, usually Knowledge (The Planes) to qualify for. There are no core rules that make a skill a class skill, meaning the Sorcerer has to wait until nearly twice as high of a level than a Wizard. If you can go non-core and have access to Faerun, the Cosmopolitan or Education feats can solve the class skill issues. However, again, the Sorcerer does not have the Skillpoints to be able to dump into a Knowledge skill to meet the prereq, even when it is a class skill. In fact, there is only one PrC in all of the books I know of that even has Spontaneous Casting as a prereq, the Dragon Disciple. And while it is very flavorful, it was obviously never intended for a primary caster to take. Minor bonuses to spell levels the character already has, and melee attack abilities make the Dragon Disciple a PrC more geared towards a Fighter X/Sorcerer 1, or for a Monk, or even a Paladin/Sorcerer (for a gold or silver Dragon Disciple).
Conclusion:
While the Sorcerer is just chocked full of flavor, and is a lot of fun to play, WotC seems to have erred on the side of caution a little too much. They cloned the Wizard, but seems they were too afraid of how powerful Spontaneous Casting would be, and totally leeched all the rest of the power out of the class for it.
They are extremely fun to play, but like the Half-Orc, they are underpowered compared to the class they sprang from, and are in desperate need of some new mechanics to set them apart from the Wizard they were derived from. Like the Barbarian is more than a Fighter with anger management issues, the Sorcerer needs more that is uniquely theirs before they will truly live up to their potential. A separate spell list would be a wonderful place to start. As Barbarians are to Fighters, and Druids are to Clerics, so should the Sorcerer compare to the Wizard.
On the other hand, the real problem is that the sorceror as described in the PHB should be a cross between the Sorceror and the Bard. Also both should get Eschew Materials for free.
Also there are only six core arcane PrCs- the Loremaster (which obviously fits the Wiz better than the Sorceror), the Red Wizard (who also fits Wizards better than Sorcerors due to being guild based), the Arcane Trickster (which is no easier for Wizards than Sorcerors), the Eldrich Knight (again fits Sorcerors as well as Wizards), the Mystic Theurge (again, little difference) and the Archmage (again even). We therefore have in core rules two classes that fit the Wizard better than the sorceror mechanically and thematically and four which are even, possibly with a slight edge to the sorceror due to rapid tactical flexibility being a big advantage for both Eldrich Knights and especially Arcane Tricksters (the other two don't care). Outside core you can add skills to your list with various feats so this isn't as much of a problem.
You're still better off than the poor Bard whos only 3.0 PrCs (the Virtuoso and Spelldancer) is far more powerful on a Wizard or Sorceror than it is on a bard and can relatively easily be taken by either (versatile feat or a little cross classing).
Not That Innate:
Sorcerers are innate spellcasters in the sense that they do not learn spells from books or other external sources. Not in any other sense.
Worldliness:
Again worldlier in the sense that they do not spend their time in libraries. The term worldliness is not linked to simple weapons. It is essentially flavor text or personality notes.
As for simple weapons they do come in handy in a number of situations. True strike is one.
Class Skills:
Actually they are good at bluffing. Arcane spellcasters have a very high need to increase their spellcasting stat. The side effect of this increase is a sorcerers competence in social situations.
Skill Points:
Recently I made an NPC who was a sorcerer. I was trying to decide where to put that second high stat. I was thinking dex, that would give him a +2 to ac and a +2 to ranged attacks. Then I realized if I use my number 3 stat I would still have +1 to AC and +1 to ranged attacks. And I would have one extra skill point per level. That’s the trade off.
Lack of Class Abilities:
You know I used to think this too. Then I realized something. Spells are their abilities. Well what about PrCs with a full progression? Well they all have requirements. These requirements typically mean that they cant take skills or feats that they would otherwise take. So qualify for loremaster or take those cool Metamagic feats you want.
Besides wizards get a bonus feat every 5 levels, it is not much of a bonus.
PrC:
First off there are sorcerer PrCs I have seen at least two PrCs that require spontaneous spellcasting.
That being said I think there is a need for more sorcerer PrCs.
Conclusion:
Well you made one good point and 5 bad ones.
Again, very good topic
Kal
I'd also say you missed two important limitations:
No Quickening
The sorcerer can't use the quicken spell feat. While this was not such a big deal in 3.0, as mid-high level sorcerers were always hasted, it is a huge problem for high-level sorcerers in 3.5. A non-epic sorcerer is forever doomed to 1 spell/round, whereas clerics, druids, and wizards can all start knocking out 2/round at 9th level. Even at 9th-10th level it's not such a problem, but once you get past that into 12th-20th level it is. A sorcerer can cast more spells each day but in a 3-5 round combat a well-prepared wizard will generally dominate him.
Terrible Rod Use
Arrrgh! It takes a sorcerer a full-round to use a metamagic rod on a spell, as opposed to a wizard who can do it whenever he wants! Why does the sorcerer, who can effortlessly apply his own metamagic feats on the fly, have so much trouble with these things? Why does the wizard, who needs to carefully memorize the spell exactly as it will be used, have the ability to modify the spells without batting an eye? And, of course, the sorcerer can't use a quickening rod at all.
-Shaftiel
Eschew Materials.
"Worldliness"
True strike, crossbow, protection vs. arrows
"Class skills"
3.5.
"Skill points"
Why does a sorceror who gets his spell knowledge for free need to study spellcraft and knowledge (arcana)? They do him almost no good at all.
"Lack of Class Abilities"
The Fighter doesn't have any "class abilities" either, he just gets more of his specialty than anyone else. Sorcerors cast spells. That's what they do. They get more of them than anyone else.
"PrC's"
Clearly, you haven't read enough books that have PrC's in them.
Eldritch Master (Dragon Magazine) comes immediately to mind.
Originally posted by Ranthanas
You're slightly behind the times on the Prestige Class front. Both the Sorceror and the Bard are starting to get their own PrCs (the Sorceror gets the Exalted Arcanist in the BOED
Just for referance, I wrote this before the BoED was released.
As for people saying there are two or three classes that require spontaneous casting to get into them, could you name them please? And they need to be pre-BoED and pre-Draconomicon, as that is when this article was written. Also, to be blunt, the vast majority of players don't get Dragon. The stuff in Dragon almost never gets republished in a book form the rest of us can read, and anything there is essentially flushed down the toilet as far as those of us without subscriptions are concerned. If they would just release a "Best of Dragon" book with all the crunchy stuff in it from the past year or two, I'd happily buy that, but they don't. But that’s another rant entirely.
In response to the crossbow + true strike response from weapons, the Wizard can do the exact same thing. This does not mean the sorcerer is better at it than the wizard, it just means he's using magic to cover his butt.
For spells being their own class ability, sounds like rubbish to me. Fighters get loads of feats, that’s their class ability. Wizards get metamagic, that’s their stick, while Druids get wildshaping on top of their casting. Bards get a good host of rogue and music abilities on top of their magic, and clerics get spontaneous cures and turn undead on top of their normal casting. The Sorcerer gets.... zilch. They can cast without preparation. That’s it. They get that at level 1. The never get anything else for the rest of their career they can't get just as well from any other full progression PrC. If you think they aren't lacking in class abilities, why does EVERY poster on these boards say to jump into some sort of PrC ASAP? It’s because, aside from the familiar, the sorcerer loses nothing by dumping every level they can into PrC. That sounds like a freaking klaxon to me that they have no class abilities. Even being able to trade spells is linked to spontaneous casting and not to sorcerer levels, so you can't even use that. Fighters only getting feats and not class abilities was mentioned. Well, it still makes them better fighters. Saying that spells getting better for the sorcerer is like saying a fighter's BAB keeps going up, and thats all they need to hit stuff with. Sorcerers never get innately better at the spells they cast, they get no bonuses to their spells above baseline save DCs. At least the wizard gets some metamagic.
Class skills and Cha based skills being good enough with only the normal increases in Cha for casting. So, assuming a Sorcerer with 18 charisma at creation, +5 to that over 20 levels and +5 from magic. That’s a Cha mod of +9. I think everybody can tell that a measly +9 to a skill you use all the time is rather pointless at 20th level, when those that have it as a class skill will have 24 ranks in it by this time, plus their attribute modifier. Its like saying a Rogue can get by with 1 rank in Pick Pocket and just live off their modifier to keep the skill viable at all levels. Upping it to just 4 skillpoints per level is all the class needs to offset the fact they are NOT a wizard clone.
Again, don't get me wrong. I love the sorcerer and I do think they are playable. The point to this is that they are very underpowered compared to any other caster in the game. At low levels they lag behind wizards in what they can cast, and at high levels they get their butts handed to them on a silver platter by everybody using Quickened Spells to double their firepower. They're like Half-Orcs, only worse. Yes, they do what they were designed to do. Yes, they're easier to use. No, they are not balanced in regards to the alternatives, and WotC has made no efforts at all to fix this. The Sorcerer remains a flavor class, anyone wanting power goes to the Wizard or the Uber-Druid. Because, frankly, the only area the Sorcerer expels in is being a walking artillery platform, and they lose out even here to a wizard with Quicken Spell and memorized offensive magic.
As for Vaxalon's comment as to why you would want Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana skill points, they are still very useful for the purpose of trying to identify items, and for counterspelling purposes. Also, even sorcerer PrCs require Knowledge Arcana, my favorite choices currently being Exalted Arcanist, Arcane Devotee. Dragon Disciple and blood magus are nice too, as blood magus gives you the ability to make scrolls and potions without having to take extra feats.
If I were to propose a fix to the Sorcerer, I'd do the following:
1) Give them Eschew Materials at 1st level.
2) Give them Diplomacy and some Knowledge skills as class skills (local, geography, nobility)
3) Allow them to use Quicken Spell.
I'd think that these fairly small changes would make the Sorcerer on par with the Wizard. I'm not too into the whole idea of totally redesigning the class, but small changes could work well.
It seems that a LOT of people are using slightly adapted sorcs. Too many, perhaps.
My DM has also allowed for some slight modifications though I will spare you the details as they are not very different from the ones already mentioned.
Everybody wants his or her character to be as powerful as can be; I think however this is not the case here.
I’m curious if there is going to be an official response since you have formulated thoughts clearly.
(noticed the edit?)
The main thing I don't like is definitely the lack of skill points + social class skills. Sorcerers spend much less time studying than wizards, and should be able to get around the world better with more skills. I'd like to think the sorcerer as a monk - except that the sorcerer looks within for magical perfection, rather than physical perfection. Both aims for a higher spiritual understanding of him/herself.
Oh, and I think you forgot to mention the sorcerer's minute spell selection. Anything above 6th level, you can learn only 3 spells. You lose access to over a dozen spells to be able to cast 2 times more per day spontaneously. I don't mind that so much because it offers the challenge of picking spells that suits you character (hey, it's like compulsory spell specialization :D ), but it IS rather a drag in the long run. Part of the fun in spell casting is choosing which spells to cast. Don't have much choice here now, do we?
Other than that, everything in your essay applies to how I feel.
Originally posted by Edymnion
Just for reference, I wrote this before the BoED was released.
And after the webpage I linked was put up. Either that or it was an extremely long time in the queue. Still, it's one exception.
As for people saying there are two or three classes that require spontaneous casting to get into them, could you name them please?
Dragon Disciple (OK, not a good example), Spellsinger (Theoretically for Bards but very powerful for Sorcs). I think that that's it pre-3.5. On the other hand, why does it need to require impromptu arcane casting to be for the sorc. (OK, so many are for the wizard- but Archmage (to pick a random example) is neutral and the Sorcerer gets more benefit from it (having more slots to burn). I suppose you could call this a Sorcerer class that wizards can take rather than the other way.)
As few PrCs require ability to prepare spells, I'll also offer up the Mindbender as one it's easier and more beneficial for Sorcerers to gain (one of the skills is on their list). Also the Arcane Trickster, the Eldrich Knight, the Spellsword, the Raumathari Battlemage and a few others seem to be neutral with flavour favouring Sorcs at least as much as Wizards.
Yes, they're easier to use.
I'd disagree with that. It is easier to use a sorcerer badly but harder to use one well as so much is in spell selection to cover their versatility.
Why does the wizard and sorcerer have only 2 skill points compared to a thief with 8 or a ranger or druid hanging out in the woods. It just doesn't make any sense especially when they Need arcana, spell craft and concentration to be good at what they do. Not to mention typically useful skills like alchemy, scrying and other knowledge skills generally required for any prestige class.
Personally I use the standard Dogma sorcerer as a typical stay at home "Commoner Sorcerer" and give them the extra commoner skills.
Use player characters as "Expert" sorcerers with 6 skill points plus the choice of the 10 additional skills along with the expert's improved combat table and a D6 for hit points and works a lot better especially with a Master Work Mithril Chain Shirt at low levels.
In the feat department: Toughness works. You give up a Metamagic Feat but the three hit points can make all the difference in whether or not your character survives 1st level.
If you are human I would take the extra feat to become proficient with a martial weapon that deals more damage than the spear or morningstar or gives you an advantage in melee combat. A long spear is a good weapon for a sorcerer. Against medium and smaller opponents it allows you to hit them before they can hit you and if they go to a ranged attack it provokes an attack of opportunity. If they do get in close wearing a spiked gauntlet on your free hand allows you and armed attack without having to draw a weapon.
Daily Spell Pool Access to personally unknown spells, really nice in a pinch, crafting own magic items potions, scrolls or wands. Tome and Blood or Magic of Faerun.
War Wizard of Cormyr offers some nice feats to a sorcerer MOF.
Mixed thoughts on the Harper Mage Prestige class because of all the prereqs. MOF
Raumathari Battlemage is a nice choice.
- Flavorless. As others have already said this class gains no abilities which sets the sorcerer apart from the other classes. Sure, he can cast spells like the wizard. He can cast them without preparing, like the bard.
- Too similar to the wizard. The sorcerer and the wizard are the only core classes which share the same spell list. Also both classes have familiars. The only real differences are the way they prepare spells and the number of spells they know and can cast. The rest is nearly the same except that the wizard has more feats, more skills, but see point 3.
- No support. In every way the wizards gets more support from WotC than the sorcerer. Wizards have some spells sorcerers can't cast, have many PRCs to choose from and with every creation or metamagical feat published they are better of because they have more feats than the sorcerer. Also when they invest some work and money, wizards can emulate every aspect of the sorcerer where he is better than them. More spells? Make scrolls and wands, the wizards have the feats for it. Instant metamagic? Buy or make of the (very cheap) matamagic rods. Spontaneous casting? Have scrolls, leave the spellbook free and relearn when necessary. And what does the sorcerer get? 1 Caster PRC with hard prerequisites and a feat, which allows them to prepare spells, like wizards. Whohoo. Even the Draconomicon has no real "sorcerer only" stuff.
That said, even as narrow as the class is, it still gets a lot of versatility. 40 spells over your career is not as poor as many people think. In a fast paced game with little 'off time' this almost matches the wizard's 2 per level plus starting package. In fact in such a game a wizard is seriously crippled by not having as many spells per day and having to pre-choose those he does get.
In my game I just gave the Wizard a spellbook with a whole pack of first and second level spells, but he can neither afford to scribe them nor has the free time to do so - for now. In time if the party delays their mission to let him do this, the opposition will have that much more time to entrench it's position. Not a major concern for them now, but in a few months game time they will be put into a major time crunch and if they find a spellbook at that time they won't be able to do much with it. At that point in time the sorcerer in the party will just keep on happily gaining in power.
In fact they in essence failed to do what I think they were trying to do - keep the class from being too powerful. They made it blander, but it is still possibly the most powerful magical class in the game. At every level of play that I've her at, a sorcerer has dominated game play both in and out of combat. They just get so many spells per day, and can nearly always rely on having all their power on hand (strip the entire party nude and toss them in a desert and the sorcerer can often shrug and work on her tan while everyone else plays commoner for a bit...).
Personally, I find the sorcerer already gets enough skill points. It's the selection that I find problematic. She should begin with losing Knowledge: arcana and getting Use Magic Device. Their skills should be more charisma focused, and less scholarly. I'd say they still need one more class skill than they have.
Likewise she has enough feats. I would give her some bonus abilities as she leveled, chosen from a list. But I would make sure nothing in that list was a power boost (like a feat usually is). Merely items built to give her flavor. Only the first level item would be an actual bonus feat, and one of its options would be a 'Familiar feat', giving her a familiar. That feat could be taken later instead as one of the normal feats. Another item in that first level list would be 'Eschew Materials' (sp?). So I would replace getting a familiar with getting a bonus feat, and make familiars a feat.
I think all the sorcerer really needs is some flavor options as she levels. Prestige classes, feats, and spells specifically for the sorcerer only. Not ones built for the Wizard that the sorcerer can usually qualify for.
From the outset though, WotC has tried it's best to ignore this class. Everything written is for the Wizard, and sorcerers are left to pick through the scraps. To be fair, most d20 publishers have done the same. I know of only three really good sources for a Sorcerer.
Paizo's Dragon issue 310
Mongoose's Quintessential Sorcerer
Sword Sorcery's Player's Guide to Wizards, Bards, and Sorcerers.
Of these the Mongoose book is best, being a rare case of a Quintessential book that got it all right. It's 3.0, but needs almost no work to bring into 3.5 - I think all you need to do is add bluff to the character sheet in the back, but there may have been something else equally minor. It has all of the desired options [feats, prestige classes, equipment, spells, etc] in many different flavors along with special templates a sorcerer can take instead of leveling, or special abilities she can get by permanently losing a spell slot, and a host of other features.
Once you add this book in, the sorcerer gets all the mechanics flavor that the textual flavor it's had since day one suggested - without being made any more powerful. And that's the mistake WotC made, cutting flavor from the mechanics to solve a perceived power issue.
The Sword and Sorcery Player's Guidebook has a few pages of spell-theming feats (+1 caster level on the list below, but you have to take these spells as your first choices as you level, and similar stuff) and some neat prestige classes, but is mostly flavor text.
So prior to those books coming out, I was disappointed with the support available for Sorcerers, now I'm quite satisfied with what I can do with them, though I still want more publishers to look at them specifically and not just feed them the Wizard's table scraps.
There can be a catch, though if your DM is cruel. The Mage of the Arcane Order doesn’t' gain known spells per level; just spells per day. So the sorcerer might be able to cast those better, but not necessarily know any more spells than when they first went into the class. I dunno, something to pay attention to, but if you're okay with using spellpool to its cap, you should be all right. Depends on the level you go in.
Anyway I thought I'd throw that in there. I find the sorcerer playable right from the pages; as Ran mentioned, they can be difficult to really play correctly but they're easy to use as NPCs and easy to use for beginners.
Originally posted by Joe Gold
Edymnion, one thing you didn't mention is sorcerers getting their spells one level after wizards. What do you think about that?
Well, its a mixed bag really. Yeah, it really sucks when you've got a wizard and a sorcerer in the same party, and the wizard is throwing around spells you can't yet, despite the fact you're the same level. On the up side, when you do get access to the spell, you're doing more damage with it than the wizard was when he first got it. It really only hurts at level 3 when the Wizard jumps ahead of the sorcerer, then things pretty much even out and you go on with life. It just makes it hard to get to second level spells, and we already know that wizards with only first level spells are pretty useless, and the sorcerer is just more-so from limited spells known.
Personally, I think being delayed a level in spell acquisition almost balances out the spontaneous casting on it's own, but that’s just me.
I do agree that gave balance would not be upset if the sorcerer was given Eschew Materials as a first level bonus Feat. I think if I ever find a group to play with I will give Sorcerers Eschew Materials as a Bonus 1st level Feat.
Tabby Cat
Originally posted by Castlmike
Personally I use the standard Dogma sorcerer as a typical stay at home "Commoner Sorcerer" and give them the extra commoner skills.
Use player characters as "Expert" sorcerers with 6 skill points plus the choice of the 10 additional skills along with the expert's improved combat table and a D6 for hit points and works a lot better especially with a Master Work Mithril Chain Shirt at low levels.
When the bard only gets 6 skill points per level plus a fixed skill list, this strikes me as plain silly. Four and a limited list might be plausible.
As for why the sorcerer gets fewer skills than the ranger, to function as a ranger you are training in hide, move silently, spot, listen and survival as a matter of course. You are more focused on the present and less on the arcane.
Oh, and the "Commoner" sorcerer is better known as an adept. This is the skilled guy. (You want more skills then multiclass or go bard).
Originally posted by Edymnion
On the up side, when you do get access to the spell, you're doing more damage with it than the wizard was when he first got it.
But that's only for a short while. Sure, you get to cast it more often, but then the wizards are able to Quicken it - and cast 2 of the same spell per round. Sorcs can't quicken, even though they get to cast more per day. Wizards get to cast more per round and that is far more powerful.
I play a wizard (blood magus actually) in my group, and I'm constantly being shown up by the sorcerer, who's just hitting his good stuff as I'm running out. When the sorcerer is casually throwing lightning bolt or similar at the red dragon we just ran into, I'm kicking myself in the ass for preparing fireballs that day.
Currently I can cast higher level spells, but unless I know I need to prepare for a particular situation I have to take a range of spells, several of which are likely to be useless. Or I could prepare for a particular situation and it could change leaving me with little that would help.
The sorcerer can find situations in which none of her spells help, but in combat she can burn all her slots on useful spells. Recently she was captured but was able to escape, partly because after resting she could cast Magic Missile (and Web after finding a cobweb). I managed to avoid capture, but I would have been unable to regain any spells since they would have taken my spellbook.
Not being able to prepare spells when your book is taken away? Very simple to fix, just take Spell Mastery a time or two. Put things like Magic Missile, Knock, even Teleportation into it, and losing your book won't be such a massive loss.
The Sorcerer does get more spells per day than the wizard, 6 per day vs. the wizard's 4 per day. However, the Wizard starts the game with Scribe Scroll, so he can easily take a couple days off while you're waiting for the Fighter to heal naturally and scribe scrolls of important spells, or craft his own wands, and he's on par with the Sorcerer, if not above him. Sorcerers make lousy magical craftsmen because of their limited spells known (and really, who needs a wand of a spell you can already cast 6 times per day?)
And again, the Wizard can use Quicken Spell for 2 spells per round, which the 3.5 Sorcerer is completely incapable of doing. True, while the sorcerer is better for the long haul, in a single battle, a high level wizard is going to blow the sorcerer out of the water.
And I still think that the Sorcerer either needs more skillpoints per level to make it fair, or that the Wizard needs the restriction that he can only use the skillpoints from his high Int on Knowledge skills. As is, I see very few Wizards using those massive skillpoints (a wizard with int 18 is getting 6 skillpoints per level) for knowledge skills like they're supposed to, unless it’s to qualify for a PrC. I'd really like to see the Wizard players say that there's nothing wrong with the sorcerer when they get a taste of what it's like to never have enough skillpoints just to keep your core stuff maxed out.
Since a metamagiced spell is not a full-round casting, but a full-round action, so i extrapolated it to counts as a move action to use a metamagic feat. so for instance a sorc may use his move to ready empower spell and his attack to cast empowered fireball. or he may use his move to ready quicken spell, cast quickened shield, then use his attack to cast fireball. Basically with metamagic a sorc can do what a wiz can do, minus a move.
normal metamagic:
wiz: cast and move
Sorc: cast
Quicken Spell
wiz cast, cast, and move
Sorc: cast, cast.
For wizards, scrolls can often offset their need to prepare appropriate spells each day. The fact they get scribe scroll as a bonus feat makes this even more useful. So, just like the sorcerer, the wizard can bulk up on fireballs, chain lightning, magic missiles, true strikes, and the like, and leave the analyze dweomers, comprehend languages, and clairaudience/clairvoyance spells to their scroll scribing. Never overlook the versatility of a good library of scrolls, especially if your DM allows you to purchase them at market value!
For sorcerers, scrolls allow them to almost completely ignore utility spells (such as the above mentioned comprehend languages and the like). Again, so long as they have access to scrolls -- usually by purchasing them, or even relying on a friendly party wizard -- they can mostly focus their innate magic on the toasty-good lightning bolts and whatnot without worrying much about not knowing them personally.
So yes... why do so may people disregard the vast usefulness of the humble scroll? As a player who favors both wizard and sorcerer, I never leave home without a Handy Haversack full of 'em!
Quoted from the SRD 3.5.
QUICKEN SPELL [METAMAGIC]
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a free action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special: This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.
Stated in the special section a sorc and a bard can't cast a quicken spell no matter what. Also adding a Meta feat to a spell increases the casting time to a full-round action. Using a Meta feat is technically a free action. Since you just apply it to your spell instantaneously. But doing so increases the casting time of the spell. Your theory does sound reasonable but by the rules it does not work.
However, I think Jackson has the right of this one. Wizards have to carefully conserve magic to make it through an 8-hour day; the sorcerer doesn't have to be anywhere near as careful. Wizards get the metamagic or item creation feats, after all, which they could use to make a wand of fireball if they really need the firepower.
However, something that's really been bugging me since 3.0 is the way magic items cost XP. It's not so much that they DO, it's the way casters spend loads of XP making items and then wind up behind the XP curve. I suppose the idea is that they'll escape while the tanks die, but in my experience everyone tends to go down together. Casters need an XP source, just to keep up! Power Components go a long way toward that, but who wants to take a month off to track down the claw of a remorhaz just to make a wand of fireball?
I say get rid of the familiar for sorcerers. It's a typical wizard stereotype to have a cat or raven.
Second, Sorcerers don't need material components. Period. They use the force of will to guide the magical forces into a spell.
Third, add Diplomacy, and Gather Information as class skills. Only give bluff if the inhabitants of the area the Sorcerer comes from persecute or just plain dislike sorcerers or arcane spell casters. Increase the skill points to 4+Int.
Fourth, give them a reason not to jump into any full spell casting PrC the moment it is available. I've thought about adding virtual spells and free Craft Wondrous Item (the most flexible item creation feat, to retain sorcerer flavor). A virtual spell is gaining knowledge of a spell, but it can only be used for item creation purposes. It puts the sorcerer on par with the wizard on item creation levels.
That should fix a lot.
I agree that the skills & skill points need to be upped. The idea of taking something from the bard & then giving the bard different things has merit. May be too complicated, in the long run though.
I think the main sticking point to the sorcerer is that they basically split the old Magic-User class into 2 classes. This compelled them to keep them nearly identical, just so players converting old 2e characters could do it easily. Doing this, they should have did it fully? Give the sorcerer eschew materials, in place of the wizard's scribe scroll. Give the sorcerer bonus feats, at the same progression as the wizard, but metamagic only with a couple of sorcerer only feats or flavor feats thrown into the choice. Since using one of the many class construction engines to balance classes, I have been doing just that. I haven’t had a balance problem yet. The wizards have always had a scroll or two handy to take care of things they didn’t prepare for, and the sorcerers have always been able to nuke the bad guys when that was needed.
I just feel that to play a wizard right, you need to have him like a walking Swiss army knife. He should be crafting scrolls & wands out the wazoo. These he uses to, quoting G.I. Jane, "Blow things up." He then prepares utility spells. The sorcerer should know how to do the MOST with the spells he has. Are you facing frost giants? Maximized fireballs. They have resist elements, fire? Then use Energy substitution, acid or sonic. They should be able to apply versatility thru modifications to their spells, using metamagic.
Metamagic makes MORE sense for sorcerers than wizards. I know wizards study magic, but sorcerers live it. They are the ones that would be inventing new ways to exploit their limited spell selection. Wizards have to prepare a metamagic spell ahead of time. Unless they get a heads up, they are more than likely guessing WRONG. Wizards will be the ones that spend all their time making items to over come their limited casting.
To recap my view:
Wizards = A Swiss army knife. A wand, scroll, potion for every situation.
Sorcerer = A magical battery that should be able to modify his limited selection to overcome as many obstacles as possible.
Almost every Arcane PrC requires you to be able to cast spells of level X. For the sorcerer, that's another level (as you said, an empty level) to qualify. Maybe not a big deal when you are building high level characters, but for mere mortals who enjoy starting a campaign at low level and level up every few game sessions, that is a huge drag.
It is nice to see people list the problems with the core sorcerer without referring to them as "crappy" or "useless", as they are neither.
But I think that instead of worrying about the metamagic feats that the wizards get, have sorc. get Enschew Materials and maybe Energy Substitution or Silent/Still Spell as bonus feats. It makes sense that a sorc. Can call magic without doing the chicken dance or clucking some magic words, or change the energy of the spell he's calling when he gets more powerful. They should be able to call magic with a look by the time they get to 20th.
Kill the Familiar and give them Light Armor and one martial weapon prof. They should be able to use a bow or sword without being a damn elf.
Let the sorcerer take Signature Spell once every 5 levels or so for free.
That would give him a little bit more of an edge. Sure, his spell selection would be worse than the Wizard's, but now, he has *more* uses, and they're better.
What I'd like to see is the sorc getting a few bonus feats. With Enchew Materials as a first level bonus, and giving the others when the wizard's get thier bonus feats. Maybe Still/Silent spell or Energy Substitution (your choice.) it would make sense that as a sorc gains power, he wouldn't have to chicken dance a fireball or cluck out some lightning. and slightly warping the magic should be easy for someone so inclined.
I'd like to kill the familiar and add a Light Armor Prof. and one Martial Weapon Prof. too, but that might be pushing it a bit.
As for the spell progression, I see no real reason that the sorcerer shouldn’t get something similar to the bard. That is a 0 on the spells per day chart, to give them access to the spells earlier, but only if they have bonus spells at that level. The chart would then be like this:
Originally posted by Bromabaz Silvertwister
I'd like to kill the familiar and add a Light Armor Prof. and one Martial Weapon Prof. too, but that might be pushing it a bit.
Why does everybody want to get rid of the familiar? With the high Charisma of the Sorcerer, I think it makes MORE sense for them to be closely bonded to another creature than it does for the bookish Wizards.
Personally, I think the class is just fine.
Originally posted by Edymnion
Why does everybody want to get rid of the familiar? With the high Charisma of the Sorcerer, I think it makes MORE sense for them to be closely bonded to another creature than it does for the bookish Wizards.
It's hard to put into words really. Sorcerers shouldn't need familiars. Giving them the same things just seems...wrong. There aren't enough differences between the two classes. I simply wanted to break them apart a bit more.
Wizards gain their powers from books, and twisting magic to their will with pretty words and gestures. I think a graduation for wizards is the ability to form a familiar and bind it to their will.
A sorcerer's training is different, they must learn to channel their internal powers, or be destroyed by it from the inside out. Weapon training can teach discipline, and a reliance on themselves and their abilities can give them a greater control over the magic inside them.
And from a playing standpoint, you have to cut something when you add in more powers, and a familiar seems the thing that a sorcerer needs the least. That's why I wanted to switch them.
Originally posted by Bromabaz Silvertwister
Wizards gain their powers from books, and twisting magic to their will with pretty words and gestures. I think a graduation for wizards is the ability to form a familiar and bind it to their will.
That is actually something that I really didn't like about 3.5 changing. In 3.0, you didn't just magically summon a familiar out of thin air, you had to go out and obtain it the old fashioned way. Most of the standard familiars could be bought on the street from shops, but anything bigger you had to go out and find (which means getting something like a Formian Worker for an Improved Familiar could be an adventure in and of itself).
3.5 just threw roleplaying out the window and said you summoned the familiar out of thin air. Course, 3.5 threw a lot of roleplaying out the window.
Anywho, in 3.0, it made perfect sense for the Sorcerer to have the familiar, because you had to bond with the animal/creature before you could turn it into a familiar, which is the domain of a charismatic sorcerer, not a bookish wizard.
Originally posted by Edymnion
That is actually something that I really didn't like about 3.5 changing. In 3.0, you didn't just magically summon a familiar out of thin air, you had to go out and obtain it the old fashioned way. Most of the standard familiars could be bought on the street from shops, but anything bigger you had to go out and find (which means getting something like a Formian Worker for an Improved Familiar could be an adventure in and of itself).
3.5 just threw roleplaying out the window and said you summoned the familiar out of thin air. Course, 3.5 threw a lot of roleplaying out the window.
Anywho, in 3.0, it made perfect sense for the Sorcerer to have the familiar, because you had to bond with the animal/creature before you could turn it into a familiar, which is the domain of a charismatic sorcerer, not a bookish wizard.
Well, possibly. I've mostly seen the familiar treated not as a charmed pet, but rather a cowed soulless tool for the magic user that called them. I house ruled that they weren't true animals, but created out of pure magic. A week long process that involved carving the animal out of wood, metal, or clay and infusing it with the blood of the wizard who will control it. (Thus the exp. lose when it died.)
A familiar that was once a true animal and then became infused by the sorcerer's innate magic, is something I can see happening.
I can see some changes for the sorcerer class in a campaign world coming up, though :D
I love the idea of more charisma-based skills, and 4+int bonus skill points make perfect sense. Eschew Materials is a definite must, though I'm undecided on Metamagic and further proficiency with weapons and armor. I think the sorcerer should keep the familiar, FWIW. Makes him much more versatile...
As to the griping about the lack of PrCs for the Sorcerer, isn't that up to your DM? I always make my own PrCs *puzzled look*. I know a lot of people use the books as resources, which is a great idea, but they're not the *final* word. If you want more PrCs for the Sorcerer, make them, or talk with your DM, and have him/her make them. The afore-mentioned barbarian-loving son approached me about an Underdark-exploring barbarian PrC, and we worked something out
Of course, this only works if you're not in some sort of official tournament *shrugs*
I'm probably off my rocker, though. Virtually every campaign world I've run has some modifications. Can't have the pesky players doing too much metagame thinking :D
Anyhow, once again, some really good posts in this thread...
To sum up, for those who weren't around then (or don't remember), Channeling, as presented then, was a way for wizards to access any spell in their repertoire at the cost of becoming fatigued when they cast. Essentially, the wizard became limited by his spells draining him rather than simply not having the right spell prepared. Prepared spells were "cheaper" in spell points, but spells were always a bit fatiguing. Now, the higher level the wizard was, the less fatigue he got from casting "low level" spells. There was also a spell point system and the ability to "overcast" if they wanted to, but I'll spare the details. Some of the mechanics survived into the Wheel of Time system, but others have been dropped completely. So, building on what others have said, here's some ideas I've had for sorcerors (ignoring the notion of "re-working" the whole magic system).
1. Switch the Hit Die to a d6. This is a simple flavor differentiation to set them apart from Wizards. It also follows Monte Cook's argument that the d4 is basically "non-viable." And OA Shugenjas are basically sorcerors with a d6 for hit dice. Hell, their spell list is even more "Sorceror-esque" than cleric-esque (except for the healing spells).
2. Add some spells to their spell list and take others away. Let's see a really flavorful "Sorceror" spell list.
3. Scalable spells! These were introduced to Core D&D in the Kalamar Player's Guide. And they make huge amounts of sense for Sorcerors. ALL their spells should be scalable. A 1st or 2nd level version of Mage Hand, for example as a lower power version of Telekinesis. Wheel of Time provides a good model for how to scale some classic D&D spells like Telekinesis/Mage Hand, Control Weather, or Fireball.
4. I'm iffy on familiars. Harry Potter-esque familiars seem more Sorceror-like. The D&D ones seem more "Wizardly." Truthfully, familiars are a "witch thing" but I digress. On the other hand, I think Wizards should use Wands or Staves as spell focuses rather than as batteries of "extra spells"...so maybe I'm just weird...
Now Unearthed Arcana gives lot's of cool variations, some of which I love, others which aggravate me immensely. When I saw that there were variant casting rules I was excited. But the spell point variant had me re-reading and double checking the book a dozen times to find Skip Williams name in the list of authors. The sorcerer, despite the many drawbacks and handicaps that have been pointed out on this board, still had a few advantages. However, the spell point system suddenly weakened them to a point I cannot describe (ok I'm about to, so sue me). At high levels, there is only a difference of one 2 high level spells between the sorcerer and wizard. The sorcerer has just been screwed out of his/her major advantage, sheer firepower. And, the variant essentially turns the wizard into a spontaneous caster also, with the benefit of being able to memorize more spells, and use quicken spell. Ouch.
Now, the second variant was the one I was really excited about. Recharging magic, I always thought that magic should be something that you drew on like breathing, and that you shouldn't have a limit on how often you can cast, just how quickly. Well here it was! Unfortunately, the wizard again became a spontaneous caster with more spells than the sorcerer, and has access to all the metamagic feats. This variation was a little better, because it doesn't allow a wizard to spontaneously decide to add a metamagic feat without memorizing the enhanced spell ahead of time.
Now, I realize that these rules are optional, but I would like to point out that the sorcerer is forgotten. Essentially the variations allow the wizard to be more like the sorcerer, without allowing the sorcerer to be more like the wizard. It would have been nice if maybe the writers had considered a few variant rules for the sorcerer, maybe a couple that gave access to metamagic faster. I've never seen any 'sorcerer only' feats, or anything that really works to enhance the class along with the rest of the core classes.
Personally, I am a big fan of the 'sorcerer house rules' modification. At least I can give the poor guy few mores kill points and class skills, and toss in a few feats to help him out as well.
And if you want a better building block to start the sorc. off on, use the alternate sorcerers found in The Book of Eldritch Might 2.
2 cp.
I too loved the Sorcerer idea, having lost many a spellbook in 2ed.
Other than the Sorcerer being a clone of a wizard with a different spell system (spontaneous), my biggest beef is that the wizard is THEN given extra feats that the sorcerer is not.
I like the Eschew Materials at First level addition. Without it, your not really butt neked spellcasting. Sure, a Sorcerer could take it, but Wizards get Scribe Scroll for free, and that negates the extra spells per day advantage of the Sorcerer.
Regarding Familiars, as a change just for the sake of change, make the familiars a 3rd level thing for Sorcerer (softens blow of not getting 2nd lvl spells). Kind of like Animal Companion for Rangers. And then give them another one, at a double digit lvl, so they could get and improved one or something. You could have a pseudodragon familiar, but the cat that has traveled the world with you is still gonna be cooler. Familiars seem more charisma based, but I always saw Wizards Familiars kind of like their only friends growing up, hahaha. So a Wizard gets one, and a Sorcerer gets more, but with less Familiar powers. Just a thought.
I think 2 skill points is weak for any class, and they all should be moved up 2, but under the current split, it's fine. Sorcerer isn't a skill based class. But... open up the class skills! Bluff is a shady skill, why did they add Bluff but not Diplomacy. Knowledge should be the realm of the Wizard, but give them Gather Information. Intimidate, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Use Magic Device, etc. With 2 skill points and more Class skills to choose from this infuses diversity into the class, a point brought up in this thread. The Intimidating Sorcerer or the Diplomatic Sorcerer? The Sorcerer who can get an innkeeper to tell her his life story or a Sorcerer who can get his spells off in a hurricane?
The Sorcerer has all the wizardly weaknesses from the legacy of the class. I would love to see d6 HD, Reflex a good saving throw, the rogue BaB progression, or something along those lines, because Sorcerers aren't Wizards. But that is a BIG addition to a strong, but not equal, class.
Here's another thought on the feats later on to sort of match the Wizard feats. One idea was a choice at sixth. Take Evasion (yeah, 3rd level arcane spells and evasion, game on!) or something like Imp Toughness (CW,+1hp/lvl). Similar to the way the Ranger can choose between Archery or TWF. Give it to them at sixth level, maybe something else at 12th, and a third at 18th (probably too much though). They get three in a theme rather than the four Wizards get. Again this shoots some diversity into the class. High Con Sorcerer could have a healthy amount of HPs, high Dex Sorcerer could evade a fireball showdown, or a high Int Sorcerer could have skills that are universally useful in DnD.
These are clearly skewed toward my style (reflex a good save and evasion when the fireballs start flying), but you get the idea. Any other ideas for feats at this level and beyond? Giving Sorcerer the same feat bonus as Wizards kind of defeats the purpose of having two different classes.
I think the Spell System is what it is, and the designers weighed all the different combinations, and came up with this. Having a dead level is fine, in the scheme of things. That's a whole 'nother topic though.
No doubt, Sorcerer gets the screw on material in the core books. Scorching Ray just laughs in the face of Sorcerers at third level. There are some nice Sorcerer geared spells in the Dragonomicon (sp?), but I don't think those should be the norm. I would like to see some Sorcerer only spells. And I would also like to see some more splits within the arcane and divine spells, while they are at it. Supplemental material can definitely afford the room to add single class spells. One idea for a balancing spell, Spell Salvo. Rough idea... a fifth level spell that is like the ol' Haste. But, the "other" spell has to be 3 or 4 levels lower or something like that. You cast this spell, then put yourself in Quicken mode. Make the spells at least four levels lower so you can cast a heap of magic missiles in one round. Use it to cast high offensive and good old low level defensive spells. I was thinking the "other" spell needs to be a spell from your daily lot, but maybe the other could be a standard action or whatever. And make this a Sorcerer only spell. It's not a Greater Quicken Rod, but it's at least ten rounds of ol' skool fun.
Make the Sorcerer a little more diverse and balance out the free feats given to wizards. Sorcerer is a cool class, but they didn't go far enough. And they were too busy projecting profits to take a second look for 3.5. Okay, that was a little harsh. :D
(First Post, that's why it was so lonnng.)
My house rules are a direct result of a low wisdom score and a high charisma and bluff score, so please bear that in mind.
This is how I balanced the sorcerer:
First skills. There have been many discussions on sorcerer skills, and how the class description doesn't quite 'fit' the skill choice. I give my sorcerer 4 skill points, and access to all of the 'diplomatic' charisma skills. I think that most players would agree that this is probably the biggest thorn in the sorcerer’s side, and I believe that most players would say that this is more balanced than the original.
However, I also took some skills from the sorcerer. Spellcraft and knowledge arcana. Now before you all start to babble about my idiocy and try to lynch me, let me explain myself. First, the sorcerer is an innate caster, no books and tomes, there fore no knowledge Arcana, and no theories of spellcraft. Because spellcraft is so important though, I have devised a new way to use it. The only other core spontaneous caster is the bard, who gets a neat bardic knowledge ability. I decided to give my sorcerers a sorcerer’s knowledge ability. Add their class level + cha mod, (a synergy bonus from spellcraft) and that's what they use.
Spells:
For one campaign I actually reversed the spellcasting progression of the sorcerer and wizard (cleric and druid too) but I think that the sorcerer should not be penalized like that. For another though, I actually opted to leave the spell progression alone, and instead decided to throw a new twist into the works. I allowed the sorcerer to add their Cha modifier as a bonus to effective caster level, for purposes of determining damage. so a mage got fireball at level five, and the sorcerer didn't. But when the pair reached level six, the mage did 6d6 damage and the sorcerer did 9d6 (+3 cha modifier). Now this turned out to be overpowered, so I instead made the system 1/2 cha bonus, added to effective caster level, for all purposes. It actually balanced quite well, especially at high levels when dealing with spell resistance. Because of the sorcerer’s knowledge ability, the sorcerer was usually a few steps behind the wizard, but adding another 1/2 the cha mod to the check to beat sr made them almost equal.
I also made one more change to the spells, concerning spells known. I decided to use the bonus spells chart, and apply it to spells known as well. Therefore, if a sorcerer gets a bonus spell casting of lvl 3, they also get a bonus spell known. This was my favorite change, because I felt it was the best balanced.
My last change was in class abilities. Many posts on this board have mentioned that the sorcerer should get Eschew materials for free at first lvl. I gave it to the sorcerer, and also at 7th level a house feat, 'eschew focus' (should be fairly self explanatory) and raised the gold piece limit for eschew materials 100 gp. At 17th level, gave the sorcerer 'eschew xp'. These feats are not yet perfectly balanced, so I will recommend that if you like my ideas that you try to balance them yourself.
This is just my take on the weak sorcerer debate, I won't even begin to go into the metamagic argument, but this is how I think the sorcerer should have been done.
... Archmage (again even).
:/
Sorcerers, having more spells per day, are better for taking the archmage as losing spells per day is not as big a loss.
Also why not just recombine the sorcerer and wizard? Forbid both classes, and replace with a single class that combines them, find and mix something, a combination from the spell caster simplified class (from the simplified classes in unearthed arcana), the wizard, the sorcerer, and maybe even the arcane caster from 2nd ed.
Lets face it, neither the sorcerer or the wizard are worth much anyways, they are the two weakest characters in the game, worse even then the bard, now something in between, that can work.
Also, I think it should be remembered that not ALL of a sorcerer's spells are nukes. With the Energy Substitution feat, Fireball alone can hurt pretty much any spell-vulnerable enemy if you're willing to spend a full round on it. I'd guess you don't really need more than one nuke per spell level, leaving a few slots available for not only the other essentials (Dispel Magic, etc), and any particularly fun or representative spells for your character. A sorcerer's flexibility should be able to make up for a wizard's quickened firepower, I'd think, at least in a firefight situation.
Of course, I've never really played a high-level mage, so my opinion may be moot...
On most occasions when the rules don’t fit the background or story, THEN IT IS THE STORY THAT SHOULD BE CHANGED TO MAKE THEM FIT, NOT THE RULES. There are of course exceptions to it, but if you don’t think that the story and the rules match in the case of the sorcerer, which they don’t, then make a new story as to the reason behind their powers... and then stick to it, why you ask? Because when you actually define the way things work in such a manner, you allow people the option to find a way around it, to "hack the rules of the universe" so to speak... except they don’t, they use it to their advantages, just as we can fly in planes by putting things together, while not having wings, a creative sorcerer or wizard or druid could find an ingenious way of circumventing "problems"
Always remember everything can be done, if you want to do something, check with the other players and the dm and find a way. You think a sorcerer should be able to use quicken? Me too, and he can, because everything is possible, he just cant do it right off the bat.. no, what you will need to do is likely craft a feat for it... a wizard can use a feat where he sacrifices a spell slot to gain a spell like ability that can be cast X amount of times per day, in the caster level that he was when it took it... want to make a sorcerer more versatile? Make a metamagic feat called, hold spell perhaps, where a sorcerer can pre-cast a spell using two spell slots instead of one, and instead of instantly casting it, hold it until he wishes to unleash it, at which case he does as a quickened spell... maybe throw in loosing it if he gets knocked unconscious or something....
Want to do it as a spell? Craft a spell then... Want to make it so your specialized wizard could actually cast forbidden school spells? Make a feat for it, where he looses the extra slot for that level in return for allowing him to get forbidden spells from that level, don’t think that feat makes sense? Neither do I, instead you can make it that he casts a wish spell to do it, or perhaps he "relearns", where he back tracks and learns of the spells he has been missing, he could then take an XP penalty calculated based on his level... perhaps throw in a feat requirement there too. A feat that allows him to go and relearn it.. Or make it a relearning level... the options are endless!
Meanwhile the sorcerer burns a feat on light armor or better yet blows some coins on a spell book and takes Eschew.... take him prisoner? Not for long... a hint of bluff and the people think they have captured a wizard. Not happy with your spell selection from 1st level now that you are 5th? Make a few changes. Definitely not all doom and gloom
Yes, they are quite weak and sucky up until about lvl 5, then they're okay for a while, but by lvl 15 they are dominating the game. And to a lesser extent, so is the Sorcerer, since they are essentially nothing more than a wizard clone as written.
And don’t forget role playing, a sorcerer has no teachers, no mentors, no schools and not books. So you can’t just go to a sorcerer and learn sorcery, a sorcerer is born with a talent, and although he can develop it he is limited by his own mind. A wizard can read about all the ingenious things that all the wizards in times past came up with, and integrate them into his plans for power... If your character learned magic from anyone, then he is a wizard not a sorcerer. And if he is a sorcerer he wouldn’t whine about not being able to memorize spells from a book, if he really cared about it he would have gone and learned wizardry at second level.
A lot of people argue that the sorcerer becomes unbalanced, that it is only stronger then the wizard early on, and later becomes weaker. But that is part of the balance; a sorcerer is in between. A melee fighter is the strongest at the start, soon he is surpassed by the sorcerer who is soon surpassed by the wizard.
That is one weird way of rating the classes against each other, cause the strength of any given class lies in who plays them.
I have changed the Sorcerer a bit, in my games, to compensate for the fact that you are essentially a bloody Wizard clone. This should ensure that the Sorcerer gets his very own unique flavor and style.
1.
They lose the Summon familiar Class Ability.
Why would a worldly person run around with a bloody pet, when he is charismatic enough to pet people.
2.
They gain the Eschew Materials Feat at 1st level.
Spellcasting comes naturally them, and if they had to mess around with materials to cast their first spell, they properly wouldn’t have discovered their spellcasting abilities.
3.
They gain (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at 1st level, and (4 + Int modifier) Skill Points at each additional level.
Their form of Spellcasting doesn’t benefit from a high Intelligence Score, but they are almost as worldly as a Bard, so they pick up knowledge here and there.
4.
They add Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (Local) (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha) to their Class Skills.
Their Worldliness gets them in contact with many different people, and they are very likely to use the trial and error approach when dealing with ways to enhance their spellcasting abilities.
Off cause I have added number 5, because I like the Sorcerer, and don't we all like to powergame, just a little?? :D
5.
They gain a Bonus Feat at 6th, 12th, and 18th level, which must be chosen among the following feats; Alertness, Arcane Strike, Augment Summoning, Combat Casting, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Counterspell, Investigator, Leadership, Magical Aptitude, Negotiator, Persuasive, Spell Focus, or Spell Penetration.
Thou they have quiet powerful spellcasting abilities, they gain the opportunities to improve on the abilities, they rely on to survive. These are not the same feats, or at the same rate, as a Wizard, since their focus is elsewhere.
Scrolls: at low levels they are ok. But at mid to high levels a Wiz just needs to put all his utility spells on scrolls and have a bag of holding and they can do just about anything they want when ever they need.
Rods, wands, staffs: spell cannons, just unholster a rod/wand of X attack spell and you don't need to memorize so many attack spells for a day.
Rings: Lots of great spells can be put onto rings, a few attack spells, some defensive spells some area spells, the only downside being you can only use two at once and changing them out might take you a bit of time.
Wonderus items: great for +stats and any party will love you for lending or selling them some great items that boost their capabilities.
Arms and armor: while this might require a lot more effort then most crafting its highly rewarding for your party and somewhat for yourself to have +equipment and some extra spells on you.
The biggest hit here is that a wizard could make any of these things, give them to a sorcerer and the sorcerer won't even be able to use it because he doesn't know the spell, while a wizard is limited only by the number of spells he can get his greedy hands on.
And while making so many things will hit your exp hard and you'll spend every copper piece you own on making things the exp curve helps to make it so even though your behind you can catch up in levels rather easily, though not on total exp.
Add on making constructs and PERMANANCY, so many spells you can use permanancy with while a sorcerer would just be wasting his known spells trying to do this.
So a high lvl wizard could have any utility spell he knows on a scroll, any attack spell he knows on a rod/wand, memorize his favorite spells with metamagic, and have nice magical bonus's from items. While a sorcerer can take any of the same feats, they don't benifit from them nearly as much.
This makes the wizard rather powerful, and very self sufficient while the sorcerer would have to buy such things to be any where near as powerful, with the limit of only being able to use the few spells he knows, and some campaigns (definitely any I would run) would limit you on the power of items that you can buy.
Even a higher level sorcerer wouldn't be much of a match for a well decked out wizard, so the exp hit isn't all that huge a deal, since you can then take on things that you otherwise would have no chance against.
The only big way that a sorcerer would shine better against such a wizard is when the wizard doesn't get the time to restock his items or somehow loses them. The wizard is a preparation class, they get ready before hand, and with so many options available to them they can arm themselves to the teeth. While a sorcerer is better at working on the fly, but working against a well prepared wizard you'd run out of spells first and that would be all she wrote.
Since wizards get scribe scroll at first level, there is basically no point in a sorcerers career where they are more powerful then a wizard that gets time to prepare(or even equal, though they are closest in power at low levels), and every feat a wizard gets after that makes him that much stronger, even if a sorcerer tries to take the same feats they just can't put them to as much good use.
I'd just like people to be able to see that sorcerers are, in general, weaker then wizards at any level when they both use their spell casting "Style" to best advantage, a wizard prepares, a sorcerer works on the fly. The only way this really balances out in anyway is on the personal game by game level, where if a sorcerer is in a party that doesn't need prep time then you just go out and gain exp, but if they are with other preparation classes, such as cleric, then the power shifts to those that prepare. While anyone would likely agree that being prepared is always more affective then just rushing in, in RL and games, the sorcerer has no way to prepare. Other non preparation classes could at least upgrade weapons and practice their art, melee train in fighting, rogues sneak around and put their skills to good use, etc. Sorcerers can't really prepare in any way, they don't really benefit much from equipment(an up to date bow/crossbow is just about all you need), they need to be out there practicing their skills, and while the other casters that prepare can do so in towns and populated areas; clerics healing and blessing people, wizards reading tomes and doing research, a sorcerer can't really do either, as his powers are very likely to hurt those around him and/or get him into trouble in other ways. So unless your in a full nonprep party the sorcerer is hurting being the only one with nothing to do during preptime, other then RP but you should ALWAYS be doing that and getting exp for your PR talent anyhow.
There’s so much you could do to make the sorcerer a better class, the big question is what fits, and what would be good for balance.
Increasing their skill points per level, might reflect them being social(since they are charismatic) during preptimes, much like a bard. A very simple change.
Giving them some unique progression, like the barbarian gets class abilities for being nonprep compared to a fighter who preps and trains his combat art by learning feats. The sorcerer could get a class ability progression as oposed to the wizard getting feats. This on the other hand is a rather significant change and as I've read on other threads would be difficult at best to settle on any sort of list.
I personally think that sorcerers should be superior in casting and use of metamagic compared to wizards. A typical wizard sits around making things and reading, he usually only goes out when he wants to acquire new spells and such to make more things out of and do more research to become more powerful. A sorcerer on the other hand, is constantly out in the world, talking to people and learning to harness the natural powers within him, he should be able to shape his magic in ways wizards could never think of. Sorcerers use their magic a lot more often then wizards, both because they have more spells per day, and because wizards sit around reading while sorcerers are out practicing their magic. Wizards are more bound to magic as a science, only experimenting after calculating and predicting what effects might do what by researching others attempts at such. On the other hand sorcerers are experimenting with magic nearly every day of their lives, as its part of their very being, it should not only be very dangerous for them, but very potent when they get it right.
Sorcerers shouldn't use any materials as their power comes from within, perhaps with a slight hit to their caster level to help balance with wizards.
Perhaps if sorcerers were more akin to wild wizards from 2e they could have better use of metamagic. If an easy to use system of metamagic failure was used for sorcerers where they cast metamagic at normal speed and have a chance to have the spell backfire in some way dependent upon how much metamagic they use then they would be very powerful in their casting, but have to push their limits to do so. For example, if you got -1/2% chance of backfire per sorcerer level, and each bump up in spell level from a metamagic feat gave you +10% of backfire, then at low levels you could semi-safely add a weak metamagic to a spell, or take your chances with adding more metamagic, on the other hand at higher levels you could safely use low to medium metamagic or test your luck with piling on the enhancers. E.G: A 5th level sorcerer would have -5/-10% spell backfire, if using an enlarged spell you'd have 5/0% backfire, but if you wanted to enlarge and empower a spell you would have 25%/20% of backfire.
I'm thinking with such a system in place that the bump from metamagic wouldn't affect the spell slot, only give you more chance of spell backfire, but this might be too powerfull, unless the %chance of backfire with more then one metamagic was risky even at higher levels OR keep the rules enabling you to use what spells for metamagic the same, just not effect the actual spell slot used, so you couldn't use your highest level of spells for metamagic. Maybe even allow sorcerers to use metamagic they don't know, at double the cost. I think such a system would ensure that sorcerers would be masters of their art, the art of shaping and channeling magic on the fly, while wizards would have their art of preperation and wide use of spells. One of the backfires for a spell could even be XP loss, to make such a use of powerfull metamagic akin to a wizard spending xp and gold to prep. This would also give the sorcerers some veriaty in what they cast, as the same spell could be used several times in a row in different ways.
This would also give everyone a reason to stay sorcerer, though it might hurt a multiclassed sorcerers ability to metamagic a lot at higher levels severly.It might seem a bit complex at first, but its just like making a spellfailure from armor check, it might slow the game down a bit though once you get used to it rolling with a spell would become second nature, also it would give lots of flare to the sorcerer, and lots of people would love that.
Just some food for thought, enjoy.
You cover most of the concerns that people have about the Sorcerer. I thought that Shaftiel's points about no real access to Quicken or metamagic rods is also worth mentioning. Also, Joe Gold's point about the Staggered Spell Levels coming 1 Sorcerer level late. I see that you find the Staggered Spell Levels a palatable "Con", but a Con it still is. The Sorcerer is the only primary spellcaster who cannot access spell levels at the normal class levels. Quicken and Staggering may not be the most important Cons to you, but they are the most important Cons to other players.
Your post is in the permanent "Repository" category. It has a special duty to represent everybody's concerns about the Sorcerer (which it pretty much does anyway).
If you can, re-edit your first post to include "No Quicken", and "Staggered Spell Levels" among the list of Cons.
Also add other Pros and Cons, from other posts, that seem to have a consensus as being important.
The reason I find your post especially universal, being able to represent the voices of every player, is that your list of Cons focuses on what exactly the problems are, without necessarily imposing a personal solution.
Here are a few examples of why I think Wizard is much more powerful then a Sorcerer, especially at higher levels. While Item creation does take exp and money I think it puts wizards leaps above a sorcerer for each Item creation feat they take.
Having played both sorcerer and wizard in two very different campaigns, I have some thoughts on this. I actually think they are far more equal than they look on paper.
Scrolls: at low levels they are ok. But at mid to high levels a Wiz just needs to put all his utility spells on scrolls and have a bag of holding and they can do just about anything they want when ever they need.
Scrolls cost wiz more time, sorc more money. Scrolls take a move action to access, and lots of things can prevent their easy use (not the least being the need for a hand free to hold them). That said, scrolls are a wash because they benefit both classes differently.
For wizards, gives them more slots, gives them a backup if they guessed wrong on what to prepare today.
For sorcerer, fills in the gaps in "spells known". Your theme doesn't allow glitterdust? Put it on a scroll. Many spells (e.g. truestrike) don't benefit from caster level or DC at all and are far better in your pouch on a scroll than in your head. Others (e.g. feather fall) have compelling reasons to be in spells known.
Scrolls help both classes if chosen wisely and used properly. No advantage either class.
Rods, wands, staffs: spell cannons, just unholster a rod/wand of X attack spell and you don't need to memorize so many attack spells for a day.
Wands take up a hand, they're expensive to just drop if you need another hand free for something. Staves are SO expensive nobody uses them till higher levels. But these are more or less like scrolls. The things to put on wands are things where interruption is likely (full round casting spells), things where you might need to recast it over and over (eg mirror image or silence) and things where the economics are better than scrolls (wand of cure light wounds, but only slightly).
A wizard will want different wands than a sorcerer. A wiz, for example, is far more likely to want combat wands like magic missiles or ice storm. A sorc doesn't need that, what he needs is a wand that adds to flexibility, such as summon monster, or which lets him fill in an important spell he is missing, such as Haste...and that he'll want a good supply of with less fuss than with scrolls.
The one place wizards have an advantage are the metamagic rods. A wiz can draw a rod and use it to cast a spell all in one turn. The sorc needs the rod out before he can use it, cause metamagic takes longer.
Advantage Wizard because of the metamagic rods.
Rings: Lots of great spells can be put onto rings, a few attack spells, some defensive spells some area spells, the only downside being you can only use two at once and changing them out might take you a bit of time.
Most arcanists in my experience have better things to do with ring slots than use them for spellstoring.
Wonderus items: great for +stats and any party will love you for lending or selling them some great items that boost their capabilities.
Arms and armor: while this might require a lot more effort then most crafting its highly rewarding for your party and somewhat for yourself to have +equipment and some extra spells on you.
I'm seeing a trend here, "Wizards are better because they get free crafting feats and have a better spell list." Whether or not you can make use of these feats depends on downtime. Which may be denied you by the campaign, or by impatient party members. You also need gold. Xp is usually the least of the three problems.
The assumption is that you will save money vs a sorcerer. Yet actually even paying full price for magic items, sorcererers in my experience seem to have just as much money as crafting wizards. The reason is the spellbook, which is a black pit of a cash sink, especially in campaigns where the main way of getting more spells is buying scrolls.
To break even, the wizard needs downtime. In exchange he gets to tailor make the items he wants most.
The biggest hit here is that a wizard could make any of these things, give them to a sorcerer and the sorcerer won't even be able to use it because he doesn't know the spell, while a wizard is limited only by the number of spells he can get his greedy hands on.
??? Sorcerer has the same spell list as wizard, larger list than a specialist wizard. Sorcerer can use everything a wizard can, except items that manipulate prepared spell slots, such as pearl of power.
Wizard's spell list is limited by CASH and availability. My Level 13 illusionist doesn't have haste...because she never found anyone who knew the spell in all that time. She has scrolls not in her spellbook because she hasn't had time or spell ink to scribe them She has a list of crafting projects a mile long that we only hope the current adventure will support over the long winter She's never had a moment's peace from level 1, every single minute of downtime has been spent scribing, trading spells and crafting items.
By contrast my sorceress casually burns scrolls and alchemical substances every adventure and stays further ahead of the curve than my wizard ever did, plus has time to run a business (badly, heh), meddle in politics and leads a much more relaxed life.
Whether or not you can cash in on the wizards crafting advantages is campaign dependent. Whether or not you can make good use of sorcerer's "always ready" advantage is campaign dependent.
Add on making constructs and PERMANANCY, so many spells you can use permanency with while a sorcerer would just be wasting his known spells trying to do this.
Two words that every sorcerer knows. "Limited Wish"
Limited wish + cheap scroll = all the permanent self-only effects you want for the same price as doing it with Permanency.
If you don't mind the extra 300xp, you can dispense with the extra scroll.
Limited wish is also the ultimate in spontaneity. You can draw on damn near ANY low-mid level spell (as you have no forbidden schools, that's L6 wizard/sorc and L5 everybody else, including ranger, bard, etc).
It doesn't have the opportunity cost it has for a wizard, as it doesn't lock down a spell slot. And you'll have extra xp to blow on it, since you aren't crafting anything.
Why anyone wants to make a construct is beyond me, but a sorc could
do it if he wanted. Most only need a few spells known.
So a high lvl wizard could have any utility spell he knows on a scroll, any attack spell he knows on a rod/wand, memorize his favorite spells with metamagic, and have nice magical bonus's from items. While a sorcerer can take any of the same feats, they don't benifit from them nearly as much.
True, sorc doesn't craft much. But he doesn't NEED to.
This makes the wizard rather powerful, and very self sufficient while the sorcerer would have to buy such things to be any where near as powerful, with the limit of only being able to use the few spells he knows, and some campaigns (definitely any I would run) would limit you on the power of items that you can buy.
Fine, you've got 2000 spells in various bits and pieces hidden away in your Haversack.
The sorcerer has the spells he likes most, and he can cast ANY of them as long as he has ONE high level slot free. He can also cast them a dozen times if that's what is needed, without burning a single consumable.
At level 10 my sorcereress can do all of the following with just her spells known. This is not an optimized sorcererss, this is one "themed" for telekinetic style effects.
Keep prestidigitation running all her waking hours if she wants to be clean/dry
Never have to use hands to open a dangerous-looking door
Light whenever we need it wherever we need it
maintain communication with the entire party
repair damage to items.
All the magic missiles you could ever need.
disarm or trip people with reflex saves
Save anybody from a fall even when it isn't her turn
Make people resistant to grapple
Generate 70 man/hours unskilled labor with only 1st level spell slots
Transport 1000lb of stuff PER SPELL SLOT for 10 hours over any terrain
Move same 1000lb per spell slot for 10 minutes vertically
Not just False Life, but able to cast it over and over if she is getting hammered.
Ability to remove any "fog" based spell on demand
Ability to both damage swarms AND clear them away from party members
destroy any number of inanimate objects 100lb or less, including most doors and locks
Dispel magic until it sticks
Ability to generate a dozen or so explosive runes every day without depleting higher level spell slots...and set them off on demand with a 75% success rate
Battlefield control spells based on reflex, fort, will and grapple check
Able to perform most combat maneuvers at long range with reasonable chance of success vs medium and smaller targets.
Hurl 10 greatswords (or other heavy objects, like people) 100' at a target, although granted the attack mod isn't that splended.
Hurl 10d6 worth of acid at someone, or 10d6+10d6 next round fire at minimal cost and using PHB standard equipment.
About the only thing she can NOT do that a similar level mage can usually do is teleport. She's light on the party buff spells too, but her tendency to debuff the enemy makes up for it in general She can do all of this without spending a single penny on magic items.
Now she'd like a few scrolls (glitterdust, see invisible, truestrike, ray of enfeeblement, knock, enlarge, haste) to round out her abilities, but she's pretty ok without them.
Even a higher level sorcerer wouldn't be much of a match for a well decked out wizard, so the exp hit isn't all that huge a deal, since you can then take on things that you otherwise would have no chance against.
Items are generally inferior to cast spells. They give you flexibility but they don't really make you more powerful directly. Unless you can translate those items into power that doesn't take additional actions...the real power of a wizard is in his spellbook, not in his haversack.
The only big way that a sorcerer would shine better against such a wizard is when the wizard doesn't get the time to restock his items or somehow loses them. The wizard is a preparation class, they get ready before hand, and with so many options available to them they can arm themselves to the teeth. While a sorcerer is better at working on the fly, but working against a well prepared wizard you'd run out of spells first and that would be all she wrote.
Or, while the mage is preparing, a sorcerer could, say, be casting explosive runes 12x per day and mine the entire battlefield with them, and spend the battle using dispel magic to both debuff the wizard and set off the runes.
Or he could transport a few thousand gallons of oil. Or fill the entire dungeon with walls of stone. Or fabricate enough weapons and armor to equip his minions then buff them up for the fight. Or sneak in while the wizard is in the middle of preparing and start stealing stuff or just harassing the wizard. What is the wiz gonna do? If he casts spells his crafting is ruined. Or teleport around gathering up all the enemies of the wizard to help him, perhaps backing his "request" with enchantment magic.
Not all sorcerers lack ways of translating time into power. They just do it with their spells...with the fact that they can spend most of their slots on the spells and still not be helpless.
Since wizards get scribe scroll at first level, there is basically no point in a sorcerers career where they are more powerful then a wizard that gets time to prepare(or even equal, though they are closest in power at low levels), and every feat a wizard gets after that makes him that much stronger, even if a sorcerer tries to take the same feats they just can't put them to as much good use.
Only if the wizard prepared perfectly for the challenge. My wizard usually is prepared for yesterday's battle, and winds up with a few spells uncast because they weren't appropriate. I'd say wizards are clearly stronger at level 3. I'm not so sure after that.
I'd just like people to be able to see that sorcerers are, in general, weaker then wizards at any level when they both use their spell casting "Style" to best advantage, a wizard prepares, a sorcerer works on the fly. The only way
You are ignoring the other big power of the sorcerer. No opportunity cost to casting lots of spells, and no real cost to it. Given time, sorcerers can literally move mountains.
Oh, a wizard can too, but he's always a day behind and a few spell slots per day behind, and if anything ELSE happens while he is moving the mountain he's relying on scrolls and wands to stay alive, whereas the sorcerer will always have a few top level slots held out to win a fight with...and with those slots has his entire spell list, metamagic included, on tap.
and games, the sorcerer has no way to prepare. Other non-preparation classes could at least upgrade weapons and practice their art, melee train in fighting, rogues sneak around and put their skills to good use, etc. Sorcerers can't really prepare in any way, they don't really benefit much from equipment (an up to date bow/crossbow is just about all you need), they need to be out there practicing their skills, and while the other casters that prepare can do so in towns and populated areas; clerics healing and blessing people, wizards reading tomes and doing research, a sorcerer can't really do either, as his powers are very likely to hurt those around him and/or get him into trouble in other ways. So unless your in a full non-prep party the sorcerer is hurting being the only one with nothing to do during prep time, other then RP but you should ALWAYS be doing that and getting exp for your PR talent anyhow.
Well, choose one spell that helps you make money, and there is no reason you can't contribute in the downtime.
Unseen servant translates into a LOT of man-hours for doing public works projects. Fabricate is a money machine Even humble Mending is pretty good. Tenser's Disc can transport ALL the loot (that iron door is worth serious cash in metal value alone if you bring it back) A sorcerer with mobility spells can work as a courier, make social contacts, etc. Prestidigitation can clean up the town pretty quick if the sorcerer puts his mind to it. Then there are all the spells that put out fires, shape stone, create things, etc.
If your sorcerer is sitting on his hands while the mage and cleric craft things, he's missing a trick. At a minimum he can help the rogue on his, erhm, scouting missions. But while a sorcerer doesn't NEED equipment he does BENEFIT from it.
Top on the list is anything that sort of adds a spell known (mostly scrolls but wands for the most important/frequently used spells). Items that cast spells n/day are also nice. Charisma boosters, save boosters, hitpoint boosters are always nice. I dunno. I like the eschew materials suggestion (and ditching familiar, especially since CA lets you get a familiar with a feat if you really want it).
I think metamagic rods should work the same for wizards and sorcerers, just like the "sudden" feats do. Which means, yes, metamagic rod quicken should bloody well work.
One more cha class skill--UMD or Diplomacy--that would be nice.
Other than that, I think sorcerers are ok. I think their reputation for being weak on paper is more a function of lack of player imagination than anything else. If you choose your spells known to be a one-trick pony, sorcerers are quite weak. If you choose some good spells that have a variety of applications, while you may not have the BEST spell on your list, you'll have a "pretty good" spell, and you WILL have it available, right now, repeatedly.
A wizard does NOT memorize spells, he prepares them, he spends an hour each morning casting them up to a stopping point. A wizard may during this hour designate spell slots to be "empty", which he could then fill in later. A wizard may "release" a spell, which wastes that slot (so it cannot be refilled until he rests again). And a wizard may stop at any point to fill in a spell slot he left empty, it takes a min of 15 minutes, max 1 hour if he is doing it to all his spells at once.
A sorcerer is a combat animal, a wizard a support one. Wizards must prepare their spells in advance; that makes all the difference. Sure you can have a quickened fireball, for all the help its gonna do to you against a red dragon. The sorcerer can just choose to cast ice magic on the spot against such a foe though. Sorcerers have more spells per day; they are more combat versatile as they don't need any preparation for combat (that is, no need to know who their enemies are), etc. Wizards can cast any utility spell out of combat within 15 minutes as long as they kept a single high level spellslot open. Making scrolls of utility spells is like a cleric preparing cure spells, a noob's mistake! All those scrolls aren't much help in combat as well, as the wizard can only carry so much on his person, and will need to grab the correct one.
Here is a scenario. Tom the sorcerer, and Trevor the wizard go on a dungeon crawl with some dumb fighters (i.e., all melee characters)...
Enter a room. There is a clay golem. Dumb fighters: Me see something... Graaa, charge!
Tom: Alright, most my spells are useless against the bugger, but I thought ahead, and made sure to learn a few unique damaging spells, so I can actually hurt it.
Trevor: Drat, I only prepared fire spells and acid spells, the first its immune too and the second heals it. I am also too low on spells since I only have enough to last one battle a day. I better sit this one out.
After battle they go and try to gather the loot. There is a chest with a complex lock. The rogue cannot open it. The sorcerer never bothered learning knock. Luckily our good wizard is here. He rolls out a mat, and opens up his folding table and lantern, and sits down for 15 minutes preparing knock. He then casts it on the chest, opening it.
This is a realistic scenario, based entirely on the core rules, and in fact, on actual gaming events.
The only time in which a wizard MAY be more effective in combat is when facing a unique opponent that is resilient to almost everything, and of which the wizard knows in advance. In which case the wizard may go and learn the spells that can hurt it (for example, shatter against a lich), and then prepare ONLY those spells, and quicken some. This is only if the wizard is a high enough level to have enough spell slots to do so effectively.
Here are a few examples of why I think Wizard is much more powerful then a Sorcerer, especially at higher levels. While Item creation does take exp and money I think it puts wizards leaps above a sorcerer for each Item creation feat they take.
Item creation takes all of money, experience points, and time. They also take a feat that could otherwise be useful on a day-to-day basis. Such as great fortitude, improved initiative, a metamagic feat, or some other thing. The costs, particularly the experience point and times costs, often prevent the wizard from making heavy use of them during a campaign. Particularly if the amount of time available is low.
The biggest hit here is that a wizard could make any of these things, give them to a sorcerer and the sorcerer won't even be able to use it because he doesn't know the spell, while a wizard is limited only by the number of spells he can get his greedy hands on.
That's not entirely true. A sorcerer could make a lot of the things a wizard could make. Just not the variety of items a wizard could make. For example, My Bard's sixth level feat was craft arms and armor. Soon after, he made himself +2 silent moves/shadow mithral chain shirt and a +2 buckler. He could also could have made a very nifty sword, but he ran out of money. Point is that if a level six bard can make something useful (and hire help or get other party members to aid to fill in the gaps.) Then a sorcerer could make better items. Though my bard can actually benefit from making arms and armor. The sorcerer doesn't benefit nearly as much from any of the item creation feats except staves.
In any case, though the wizard can obviously receive great benefits from crafting items, these still cost money AND xp AND time that the sorcerer doesn't need to spend. The wizard furthermore must still sink money into his spellbook to both expand and especially to protect this spellbook in addition to standard adventuring costs. Much of these costs aren't necessary for a sorcerer. As a result, the wizard, though he has more items than he might otherwise have, is still spending more of his resources to maintain their level of power than a sorcerer requires to maintain theirs on an equal level with each other.
Add on making constructs and PERMANANCY, so many spells you can use permanancy with while a sorcerer would just be wasting his known spells trying to do this.
Permanency costs a boatload of XP and making constructs requires a feat in addition to MUCH harsher costs to create than virtually all standard magic items.
So a high lvl wizard could have any utility spell he knows on a scroll, any attack spell he knows on a rod/wand, memorize his favorite spells with metamagic, and have nice magical bonus's from items.
Any utility? Sure. Not nearly all of them, but several of them, certainly. And at great cost as well.
rods and wands are both sub par places to have attack spells. The DCs and caster levels are both minimal unless a great deal of additional costs are incurred, meaning that you'll either have a lot of mostly weak wands/rods of a certain attack spell or a measly few good ones that'll actually hurt the enemy.
Memorizing? Wizards prepare their spells these days. They don't "memorize" their spells anymore. Preparing spells boosted with metamagic is more often sub par than not, anyhow.
Sorcerers, like all PCs can get items to which they get "nice magical bonuses" from. Wizards are nothing special in that regard and there are only so many items of a kind they need.
While a sorcerer can take any of the same feats, they don't benifit from them nearly as much.
No, they benefit from different feats. Metamagic, for example, is very sub par for wizards in contrast to sorcerers, who use them with much greater efficiency and grace.
This makes the wizard rather powerful, and very self sufficient while the sorcerer would have to buy such things to be any where near as powerful, with the limit of only being able to use the few spells he knows, and some campaigns (definitely any I would run) would limit you on the power of items that you can buy.
But there's no limit to the items a wizard can make? Scrolls they have to buy? Scrolls they can find? Items they even are aware that exist? In most campaigns, the so-called item creation-based wizard that uses their massive item creation capabilities to outpace the sorcerer only really exist in theory or with campaigns that give too much leeway to their PCs in regard to money and time.
More often than not, these wizards' very existence is unfeasible in a reasonably "normal" campaign. "Normal" being determined by how closely the DMG guidelines are followed.
Even a higher level sorcerer wouldn't be much of a match for a well decked out wizard, so the exp hit isn't all that huge a deal, since you can then take on things that you otherwise would have no chance against.
I've never seen an "xp hit" that was ever not a "huge deal." Should this wizard ever die and have to be resurrected, then wizard is then screwed rather hard when they have to accept a level-down and come out two levels behind the rest of the party. Once a PC gets behind in XP like that, it's very hard to catch up.
The only big way that a sorcerer would shine better against such a wizard is when the wizard doesn't get the time to restock his items or somehow loses them. The wizard is a preparation class, they get ready before hand, and with so many options available to them they can arm themselves to the teeth. While a sorcerer is better at working on the fly, but working against a well prepared wizard you'd run out of spells first and that would be all she wrote.
Except that a wizard has fewer preparable spells than a sorcerer does. Again, this wizard is unfeasible in any but a monty-haul campaign. But sorcerers benefit from those as well and wizards still loose out on XP.
Since wizards get scribe scroll at first level, there is basically no point in a sorcerers career where they are more powerful then a wizard that gets time to prepare(or even equal, though they are closest in power at low levels), and every feat a wizard gets after that makes him that much stronger, even if a sorcerer tries to take the same feats they just can't put them to as much good use.
I doubt very much that this has ever been the case. Scrolls have a set caster level and crappy save DC, are one shot, and still costs time, money, and experience points. At lower levels, sorcerers are superior. At all later levels, sorcerers even out in relative power before becoming equal early in mid-levels and remaining so in the remainder of their careers.
I'd just like people to be able to see that sorcerers are, in general, weaker then wizards
I'm not even gonna begin to analyze that giant mess of words. In brevity, they're not, at any level, generally weaker than wizards.They're equal, in general.
I personally think that sorcerers should be superior in casting and use of metamagic compared to wizards.
They already are superior in both respects.
Sorcerers shouldn't use any materials as their power comes from within, perhaps with a slight hit to their caster level to help balance with wizards.
This is completely incorrect. The PHB sorcerer gets their power from an innate talent. They learn their spells without studying them. That's it. Their "innate power" is represented in their spontaneous casting of arcane spells. Edsonaoki said it better:
The main argument used in favor of giving Eschew Materials to sorcerer is: "If the sorcerer's magic power comes from inside, why does he ever need material components?"
Simply because spells aren't powered by material components. If that were the case, then why so many spells don't have any material components? The power of them comes from nowhere? Spells are simply powered by spell slots (in the case of sorcerer), or preparation (in case of a wizard).
Material components are just elements necessary to complete the rituals of manipulating magic, just like verbal or somatic components. A sorcerer doesn't cast a fireball just thinking "Fireball", he uses the appropriate gestures, voices and material components to manipulate his inner magic power to cast a fireball.
This is pretty much different of what many people think about sorcerers, imagining them as something like psions, jedi knights, guys from movies that throw beams, or some cartoon superheros.
Giving Eschew Material to sorcerers only makes sense if you also remove the need of verbal and material components, in this case, you are changing the concept of sorcerer from "person with innate spellcasting ability" to "person with innate magic power " (such as a demon)..
And that's why I think Eschew Materials is not appropriate for the current, D&D concept of sorcerer.
Perhaps if sorcerers were more akin to wild wizards from 2e they could have better use of metamagic.
They are better at metamagic. Vastly superior at using metamagic over wizards, with the notable exception of quicken spell.
The problem lies instead with the Wizard--possibly the most powerful class in the game. Instead of "fixing the Sorc" (what is usually meant by that is "boosting the Sorc" :D ) what needs to be done is give the Wizard a mild beating with a nerf-stick.
Note that they already did this a bit with the Cleric. They "errataed" two cleric HtH combat boost spells by seriously down powering them. WoTC needs to do the same with the Wiz. I'd say a good start is "Sudden Feats cannot be taken by Wizards".
Next, a bit of Druid nerfing, and "Bob's your Uncle". :angelhide :evillaugh
Originally posted by taltamir:
After battle they go and try to gather the loot. There is a chest with a complex lock. The rogue cannot open it. The sorcerer never bothered learning knock. Luckily our good wizard is here. He rolls out a mat, and opens up his folding table and lantern, and sits down for 15 minutes preparing knock. He then casts it on the chest, opening it.
Actually, Scorching Ray would do the trick quite nicely on a lock like that. Not to mention the dumb fighter's hammer...
The thing is, the sorc does beat the wizard at combat, but the sorc can be just as resourceful too, if the person playing the sorc gets creative. Many of the "burn" spells the sorc usually ends up taking as his primary spells are effective in other ways too. 'Fireball' can start a bonfire. 'Scorching Ray' can destroy a lock. 'Earthreaver' (if you allow SS) can get you through an annoyingly difficult door. Burning opponents depends on your spell list and choices, which is why the sorcerer is dominant there. 'Utility' spells rely as much on your versatility as a person as they do on your spell list, making the sorc and wiz almost equivalent in that area. So net, the sorc is better.
Wow, is this going to start a fire... :D
I'd say a good start is "Sudden Feats cannot be taken by Wizards".
I'll extend that to say that a good place to start would be to strip everything from a wizard that can be used to emulate the Sorcerer. That means anything that lets them cast spontaneously, and anything that lets them apply metamagic spontaneously needs to specifically prohibit wizards from using them. Say bye bye to things like Sudden Feats, bye bye Metamagic Rods, whole nine yards. They should have to do ALL of their magic manipulation when they prepare their spells. Nothing happens on the fly, nothing.
My last Sorc was something of a mass hypnotist, and with still spell I could do the whole "look into my eyes" routine. I've practically always used the Sorc to make a caster with a theme to their magics, be it elemental disjunction with fireballs and weather control or morphic attacks and assault. The nature of the Sorcs ability generally leads me to make ones that are simply a magically adept persona, their personality extends into the magic they use and is expressed by its use. As you grow in level, lower level spells become a greater part of your day to day activities and higher level spells aid your overall functionality to a group. Generally, don't use the Sorc to mimic a Wizard; make your own person and be something a Wizard never could.
In my ideal the wizard and the sorc should be combined to one class. But, even if not, so what? The difference between the wizard and sorcerer is really in how they work, if you are REALLY bothered by the fact that wizards/sorcerers are more combat effective, then play that one instead. Its not like your character concept is any different. (Both gain power through killing stuff, both wield arcane magic, the only difference is that the DMG describes wizards as generally studious and sorcs as generally worldly. Just be a worldly wizard or a studious sorcerer, its possible).
If you DO want them to be separate unique characters, then you shouldn't go around nerfing or boosting, but modifying. The completely sorcerer fix goes a good way in that direction. They strip the sorcerer of some things, while giving others. (All have eschew materials, and a "theme" to their spells, and if a spell has expansive component/focus cost then they have to pay XP to cast it).
If it's really a problem, talk to your DM to get him to switch the names on the two and ban the one you don't like. Viola, problem solved.
It's true that good spell selection can fix many of these problems, but the way a Sorcerer gets his spells was always a sticking point for me too. Even if the sorcerer is roleplayed to the hilt, he's always going to end up with a hodgepodge of spells that are impossible to explain, and the player shouldn't really have to. However, why governs what kind of spells a Sorcerer should get - if they're playing it by instinct, then spells should fit with a Sorcerer's personality or represent magical ways of defeating problems found in the past (like a magical immune system.) A Sorcerer played this way will probably not have optimum spell selection, then. I'm not sure if this is a real problem, or if I should overlook this small flaw.
But, really, I've just decided that I don't like the way the Sorcerer is designed, even if I rather like the basic flavor. I have opted to use Szatanys Ultimate Sorcerer design, with the exception that Charisma-based skills are included. Diplomacy, ect. seem like the purview of someone who's worldly and naturally charismatic, that moving into a class that focuses on one element of ones charisma would naturally lead to focusing in other Charisma-related endeavors. I mean, really, I just can't see a Sorcerer without the Intimidate skill!
I hope the game designers think about making these changes official, while I allow these changes in the game I DM, as a player my DM does not see these as necessary changes. As a result I have yet to "try out" the class as a player.
I give the Socialite 6HD and 4 skill points.
The Arcane I give bonus Metamagic feats as wizards and allow them to work like they do wizards.
As much as I dislike wizards, sorcerer do get an obscene number of spells per day. Which is great if the sorcerer has fireball and their facing a village of frost giants dying to show them affection. But any DM with an ounce of evil in them (like me
) will not throw them so easy an encounter, however being able to cast 50% more spells in the long run is nothing to over look, whether its casting Mage Armor on yourself and the party monk, or carpet bombing ice trolls with fireballs it all goes a long way. Granted the wizard gets to be a bigger bag of tricks, but it all depends on preparation and that is really the trick of it. You can screw a wizard with random encounters against stuff they're not prepared for or haven't memorized the prerequisite number of spells.Anyway that my 2cp and this rant is steadily getting out my control. But before I go I must confess, :embarrass I still firmly believe that any sorcerer that doesn't take Wish as soon as possible deserves to become the meat snack or prison girlfriend the end up becoming. :D
Even if the sorcerer is roleplayed to the hilt, he's always going to end up with a hodgepodge of spells that are impossible to explain
Maybe it is just the fact that I played superheroes games for 20 years, but I really don't have any trouble coming up with a themed spell mix that fits the style of a sorcerer from level 1-20. (in a supers games, all of your special abilities are tied to one "theme", with training layered on top of it).
My current sorceress mostly has spells that move things around, because other magic is "hard" for her. She can do some cantrip level stuff that doesn't fit the main theme. It turns out that she really doesn't distinguish much between object, creature and magic (dispell magic is "magic missile" for spells, shatter is "magic missile" for objects...and magic missile is "grab the surface of the object and tear"). She can finish spells other people mostly did (e.g., scrolls wands) by finishing the "weave". Eventually she'll be able to tamper with spells others do, once she goes through the boring effort of figuring out how to detect magic.
There's an odd thing with her magic where it is stronger near surfaces (Tenser's Disk is a billion times stronger than mage hand), which will come up when she learns TK equivalents of grease, black tentacles, etc. Levitate will come very late (right before TK proper) because it involves moving heavy weights more than a short distance from surfaces. Her metamagic feats also mingle in nicely...expanding what she can do with these spells beyond what a boring old Wizard can (not as limited by range, shape etc, and right before she gets TK she figures out how to chain her other targeted spells, much as TK can grab multiple objects and hurl them).
I've got probably another half-dozen themed builds in my head that are set when you pick the first few cantrips and L1 spells and grow as the character grows. The spells are a natural outgrowth of experience and practice. Sometimes ingame stuff interferes...my character learned mending and false life after entering a wild magic zone where her magic missiles healed enemies instead of hurting them some of the time. After practicing in there for a while, she figured out a limited way of doing the effect for herself. (it's related to fixing the "weave" on a scroll someone else made...broken objects remember their whole state and she can nudge it along, broken flesh can reweave if she gets it to trigger RIGHT after the injury...yes for her, False Life is "mending with bells and whistles" not turning into a zombie partway)
The exact order and such of spells known and feats is tied to experience but the overall theme of the spells and likely way she ends up is roughly planned at the beginning. Nothing gets in that doesn't fit the theme, and generally any change or drift in the theme has to start at cantrip level and work its way up over time. Olivia sees more typical sorcerers as "dragon style" which is to say "magic missile, color spray, shield, grease, mage armor, glitterdust, web, invisible, fireball, haste" or whatever the flavor of the week is for "spells known oriented around combat effectiveness". It is the same thing as "Kryptonian superpower package" you see in the comics, where for no discernable reason several alien races have super strength, speed, invulnerability, cold breath, heat vision and super-senses. It exists, so it becomes a "theme" in its own right. But there isn't any reason a sorcerer has to go that way unless he just likes it.
According to official WotC doctrine, "Sorcerers are freaky, anti-social weirdoes that make everyone uncomfortable."
For goodness sake people, c'mon! Sorcerers are Charisma beasts! Low-level sorcerers are young, good looking, and fun at parties. Low-level wizards are twitchy old men who jealously guard their spellbooks and spend all their time hunched over scrolls, whether scribing, copying, or studying them. Everyone knows that 99% of the time the BBEG is an evil wizard! Why oh why does WotC insist on making sorcerers these supernatural freaks that no one likes?
Who would you rather hang out with - the good looking, charming young guy who's dependable (and predictable) in a fight, or the freaky old guy who puts so many enchantments on his 500 lb book that there's a good chance you'll blow up if you accidentally touch it? The guy who, upon finding a spell book, says "hey, there's some freaky stuff in here, we can probably sell it for a ton of cash," or the guy who rubs his thin, dry hands together, chuckles evily, and says "Yessssssss... at last, Zathor's Flensing Dismemberment..." The guy who spends his nights drinking at bars or the guy who spends his nights alone in a tower trying to summon He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named?
Please, please, please WotC, let the PLAYERS decide whether they want their sorcerers to be charming or intimidating. Don't make every flavor blurb and sorcerer feat push him towards becoming a terrifying, antisocial, inhuman freak.
-Shaftiel
Hold the spellbook hostage, you know what the wizard can do, you know his limits if you know its contents. Wizards always need cash, they can often be controlled financially. If you have one wizard you trust, he can tell you reliably about the capabilities of another wizard. And, wizards not being charismatic types normally, it's easy to tell when they are lying to you, they don't tend to get massive popular support for a revolution and they aren't capable of "winning" or even keeping up in court intrigues. Finally, wizards double as scholars and sages, aside from their casting abilities. A wizard is also more capable of training your loyal, smart people to be wizards than a sorcerer is, especially if you encourage them to take profession (instructor).
Sorcerers have no such limits. Short of sleep deprivation you can't deprive them of their power. They can lie to you without magic and get away with it. They can gain popularity, upset the status quo, work politics against you and aren't answerable to anyone. They don't really need cash or most other physical incentives, they don't need anything you have to offer. But aside from their magic and social skills they offer little to the realm. A sorcerer can't make more sorcerers via instruction. He isn't a source of knowledge. His talents give him little insight into what enemy spellcasters can do, and they benefit less from organization, libraries and collaboration. So, the Powers that Be can both offer more to a wizard and benefit more from bringing one into the fold. A Sorcerer is a wildcard, a power base all by himself not answerable to the ruling class.
That said, if the ruling class is down on sorcerers, then those who work for them will be suspicious of them. Making nice with a sorcerer could get them in trouble. When they DO make friends and get in trouble, they probably blame their cooperation on the "silver tongue and powerful enchantments" how could I resist?"
The common people? Well it depends how much the rulers hate sorcerers and how hard they've worked to poison the commoner mind against them.
Read up on Europe around the time of the Reformation. The opinions of the ruling class on religion in each state had a profound effect on what the average person professed to believe and how they behaved. Even when within 20 years (as in England after Henry 8th) you go from Anglican to Catholic to Anglican, where it was seriously against the law to believe other than what the king believed (to the point of burning for heresy). The average peasant would be Anglican today, Catholic tomorrow, Anglican again, etc. Diehards on both sides of course resisted.
So, if the government supports sorcerers, they'll be popular and exotic and interesting, much like bards. If the government fears them, they'll likely be somewhat illegal to associate with and thus cause some problems outside of friends/family when they discover you are one. There is a middle ground "licensed sorcerers" similar to in supers games "mutant registration acts".
As to why bards get away with being well liked--they have the FULL set of social skills, plus perform skills which let them tell the stories the way they want. Hard to poison the minds of the people when the storytellers aren't behind you. They also have the restriction of being fairly visible and generally more limited in what kinds of things they can accomplish on their own, so probably aren't perceived as "dangerous" in the same way sorcerers are. It's nice to be able to make up rumors about your class and distribute them (as in "Bards are weak and harmless.")
From Conan the Destroyer (paraphrased):
Barbarian: "Kill him already so we can move on!"
Rogue with thrown weapons skill: "It's bad luck to kill wizards!"
PC wizard and NPC wizard struggling over opening/shutting portal "smirk"
This can be crucial in a duel between spellcasters. In the rules I use for such a combat, the sorcerer's unique abilities and high Charisma come in handy (and yes, additional skill points and class skills would help even further). Here are the rules:
The beginning of a duel between spellcasters can be very much a game of waiting and patience, like a showdown between gunslingers in the Old West. To simulate this, have the combatants make opposed Intimidation checks as they stare each other down (use a Cha check if one has no ranks in Intimidate). The winner gets to add the difference in the opposed checks to his initiative roll.
Once initiative is determined, the first to go has to decide whether to begin blasting right away or to ready an action and try to counterspell his opponent. This can be a gamble if one doesn’t have the same exact spell ready to cast as his opponent, because dispel magic doesn’t always work. There is a way to combat an opponent who always seems to counterspell every spell you throw at him. Let’s call this the Magical Bluff: Make a Bluff check opposed by your opponent’s Sense Motive check modified by the number of his ranks in Spellcraft. You must pretend to cast a spell that you actually know or take a -20 penalty on the check. If your Bluff succeeds, your opponent is convinced that such-and-such a spell is being cast, and might waste a spell trying to counter the Bluff (spells used in counterspelling have no effect if there is nothing to counterspell). The object of these exchanges would be to drain your opponent of spells before you are drained yourself, so that he may be attacked later at will. (The moral here being that the sorcerer is the one most likely to be left with available spells).
Just some things to think about and perhaps cheer the poor, maligned sorcerer...
;)
1. Waste your turn on the CHANCE that the opponent will cast a spell
2. Waste a spell
3. Prepare the right counter
I'd allow anyone to counter a spell if they recognize it during casting.
I think the Eschew Materials makes sense. So far I think the on-the-spot abilities of the sorcerer make up for a lot. Those are the things I'd try out. I don't like making changes any more than I have to.
Though he gets worse spells known than a sorcerer: he gets cool abilities.
Why not give Sorcerer one ability from him so he keeps his spells known?
Wild Surge (+1-6) At level 1 and every 5 levels after can go higher bonus possible increases by 1. Wild surge gives him a Bonus on caster level (for spells etc for that turn) as a free action.
Enervation chance: Fail he gets stunned one round.
1d20 + Sorcerer Level + 1/5 levels (minimum 0)
DC 5 times number gained in caster level. Example level 5 you can gain up to 2 bonus: Dc 10 with a roll of 1d20 + 5 +1. About 55% chance. However it's easier to just gain +1 bonus at that level.
So rather than giving him a bonus using metamagic or Eschew Materials (though I think he deserves it). Make him better at magic since he is attuned with it naturally.
Personally, I think the sorcerer is weak just because it's a lesser clone of the wizard. Raise him to full wizard power and voila! Give him the feats every 5th level, but please limit them to metamagic feats. And reduce the spells per day by 1, so he'll need more CHA. That way, I think it's balanced.
I have changed the Sorcerer a bit, in my games, to compensate for the fact that you are essentially a bloody Wizard clone. This should ensure that the Sorcerer gets his very own unique flavor and style.
1.
They lose the Summon Familiar Class ability.
Why would a worldly person run around with a bloody pet, when he is charismatic enough to pet people.
2.
They gain the Eschew Materials Feat at 1st level.
Spellcasting comes naturally them, and if they had to mess around with materials to cast their first spell, they properly wouldn’t have discovered their spellcasting abilities.
3.
They gain (4 + Int modifier) x 4 Skill Points at 1st level, and (4 + Int modifier) Skill Points at each additional level.
Their form of Spellcasting doesn’t benefit from a high Intelligence Score, but they are almost as worldly as a Bard, so they pick up knowledge here and there.
4.
They add Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (Local) (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha) to their Class Skills.
Their Worldliness gets them in contact with many different people, and they are very likely to use the trial and error approach when dealing with ways to enhance their spellcasting abilities.
Off cause I have added number 5, because I like the Sorcerer, and don't we all like to powergame, just a little? :D
5.
They gain a Bonus Feat at 6th, 12th, and 18th level, which must be chosen among the following feats; Alertness, Arcane Strike, Augment Summoning, Combat Casting, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Counterspell, Investigator, Leadership, Magical Aptitude, Negotiator, Persuasive, Spell Focus, or Spell Penetration.
Though they have quite powerful spellcasting abilities, they gain the opportunities to improve on the abilities, they rely on to survive. These are not the same feats, or at the same rate, as a Wizard, since their focus is elsewhere.
On 1.
I totally agree. For those who argue the sorcerer is charismatic and is more likely to have a familiar, take a look at the druid and the ranger. Charisma is probably around the least useful skill to those two classes (depending on the build), yet they walk around with a very happy animal companion. For the wizard his familiar should be an intimate friend, someone who he can trust. For a sorcerer the ones he can trust are his friends, the actual humanoid beings he has enchanted with his wit and personality, and who came to like him.
On 2. and 3.
Right on target, those are two very flavorful options. I think these two should be an auto-include in any "rogue" sorcerer build, as they are nowhere overpowered but oh so flavorful!
On 4.
It's hard to decide for me which skills to include in the sorcerer's skill list. I do think the core list is way to limited, they only have 6 (!!!) class skills, that's the least in the game! Even fighters have 7 class skills. It seems to me that for a "worldly" class they haven't seen much of it! I think my final list would include:
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int) plus any two Charisma based skills of your choice.
Sense Motive nicely rounds out the "social skills" side of the sorcerer in combination with the two charisma based skills.
On 5.
This is where I disagree. There should be a feature that doesn't unbalance the sorcerer, but makes him unique in a less obvious way than bonus feats (which is after all the same general advancement a wizard gets). Two ways to diversify the sorcerer spring to mind:
5a.
The Complete Arcane (correct me if I'm wrong) introduces swift spells. Casting a swift spell is essentially a free action, but you can only cast a single swift spell per round. Oh, and casting swift spells doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Anyway, you can go two ways with this. The first way involves making spells that last shorter but also are very quick to cast and lower in level. An example would be Swift Bull's Strength, which would be a 1st-level spell that increases your Strength by +4 for one round. The second way involves upgrading spells to make them really devious. An example would be Swift Improved Invisibility, which would be, say, a 6th-level spell that allows you to attack on the turn you became invisible.
This is a very flavorful way to set the sorcerer spell list apart from the wizard spell list.
5b.
The second way I thought up myself. Like the ranger has favored enemies, the sorcerer could have favored spells. The rules text would read something like this (assuming you'd place the ability at 2nd level and every 4 levels thereafter):
At 2nd level the sorcerer may choose one spell he knows. Due to his intimate use of this spell the sorcerer gets a +1 bonus to caster level when casting the chosen spell. Likewise he receives a +1 bonus to the DC of the spell.
At 6th level and every six levels thereafter (10th, 14th, and 18th level), the sorcerer may choose an additional spell known. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus on one any one favored spell (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by 1.
This would also be a perfectly flavorful way to show the sorcerer's aptitude with spellcasting. Although I don't know how powerful this is, it should not be too much of a problem I think. I like it being given out at 2nd level and every four thereafter because it enables you to choose a spell of a newly acquired spell level. Maybe it should be 2nd, 8th, 14th, and 20th level though, which leaves the nice threshold. This ability might even dampen the loss of quickened spell to some extend.
On a side note.
I don't think meddling with the feat quickened spell itself is such a good idea. Also, making adding a metamagic feat a move action would prohibit spellcasters to add more than one metamagic feat to spell... No more silenced, stilled spells? Nah, I don't reckon that's a good idea!
You missed out on the spells per day. The sorcerer gets a heck of a lot more. Plus the wizard has to carry a book around which is a draw back for the wizard. If you want to be combat oriented the sorcerer is the better choice. Basically he buffs himself up with those hour per level spells. Nice he can use more weapons if you wish to do that (it's actually a pretty good idea against other casters). Who cares if you get a move action or not when using a metamagic feat? It's not that big of a deal.
The sorcerer is pretty much as written, except every three levels and 1st level he gets an ability called Spell Affinity. With this, he chooses a Subtype of spell (Fire, Teleportation, Mind-Affecting, what-have-you). Whenever he casts a spell of this type, he gains a +1 bonus to caster level.
At 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter, he gains Greater Affinity from one of the schools with which he has affinity. This grants him a +2 bonus to caster level.
At 10th and 20th, he gains Master Affinity, which is a +3.
Its fairly equal to the wilder's wild surge, except the wilder's surge is higher and the sorcerer never has a chance to mess up. For those of you who think its too powerful, I also added a Spell Fatigue ability, which is when he uses up the last spell slot of a given level, he has to make a Fort save (DC 15 + spell level) or become fatigued.
I love my sorcerer, MoTAO allows him to get diplomacy and spellpool and knowledge skills and languages. It makes him think he's a wizard, basically.
I think people are forgetting that versatility is often substituted for raw power e.g. the bard. The sorcerer is very effective in a party. How many wizards "waste" a spell slot on a whispering wind spell? Most spellcasters memorize direct dam, aoe damage, prot, and other generalized, combat only spells. How often does a spell caster say in a dungeon or remote setting, "I sure wish I had (fill in the spell here)?" Also, the freedom from spell books is seriously underrated. That's because most adventures don't sweat the small stuff. Would you rather be a sorcerer or wizard when taken prisoner; or must leave your items at the city gates or with guards (remember crafty Gandold?) The sorcerer has the most stand-alone power in the game and should be considered a special character. I am partial because as a player and DM, I got sick of PCs fudging spell lists because the wizard is simply too limited. The Wizard probably will be phased out as most non-D&D products already did, as it's a very restrictive system.
I think you're forgetting that almost any wizard will specialize. This will leave the wizard only one spell per day behind the sorcerer, with, half of the time anyway, access to a higher spell level at that! Also, with just 15 minutes of concentration, any wizard can substitute a spell already memorized with one from his spell book (or any other source). This still leaves us with the quickened spell syndrome and the level lag... You're right about spellbooks though, even if a good DM should always give a wizard the opportunity to gain a spellbook back without too much expenses, the possibility is there... As always, there are multiple protection/cloak devices for spellbooks though, just scroll through the complete arcane for a few ideas!
Firstly I agree with the Eschew Materials thing but I'd like to point out a few things about it. RisingZan mentioned early on that Eschew Materials would make a spell a full round action, this is not the case. Eschew materials is actually a general feat, not a metamagic feat, so the problem of spontaneous casting isn't in fact a problem.
I'd also agree that sorcerers are severely short of skills, and removing Spellcraft from the skill list and making it a class feature which improves every level would be a good thing (just like was done with the the animal empathy skill becoming the ranger's wild empathy skill in the move from 3.0 to 3.5).
Onto the topic of sorcerers being antisocial freaks. If there were organized mage guilds then they could definitely see people like sorcerers being a real threat to their power. Being able to use magic and bypassing the master-apprentice setting means that every sorcerer is a free agent and totally unaccountable to an organization. Clerics are accountable to their church and god, wizards need other wizards just to learn spells from (sure, you can invent them yourself, but that's not very efficient) Druids are accountable to either a god or nature and bards aren't exactly the most potent spell casters around. But sorcerers look very much like a wizard to your average peasant. They can both wiggle their fingers, mutter some gibberish and burninate your fields and hovel, just like that! If I were a wizard I'd feel a bit nervous around an innate caster like a sorcerer, and if a powerful mage guild pulled strings then sorcerers could find themselves outlawed very fast.
Other than that it makes absolutely NO sense for sorcerers to be the outcasts they are described as.
Don't ignore the Mage of the Arcane Order (Tome & Blood). Sorcerers can not only qualify for that PrC, but they can also benefit from the spellpool like a crazy son of a gun. Suddenly spells they don't know are known. Sure it's limited per day, but sorcerers benefit because they get to repay the spell cost easier. (Note that there are a couple differences between the T&B PrC and the MOF one... more or less, it just depends which world you're playing in, etc.)QUOTE]
Something I've noticed just recently is that Mage of the Arcane Order gives a Sorcerer access to all Knowledge Skills. MoAO is a great "gateway" for a Sorcerer to qualify for other PrCs that require Know: Religion or Planes! I can't think of too many core PrCs that a Sorcerer can easily qualify for that grant access to all knowledge skills.
This alone is worth the one throw-away feat, not to mention access to Spellpool! If you still can't bring yourself to waste a precious feat on Cooperative Spell, remember MoAO gets a free metamagic feat at second level! And while Arcane Preparation isn't always a great choice it DOES grant access to Quicken Spell which really is a boon, especially at later levels.
Aaron
Firstly I agree with the Eschew Materials thing but I'd like to point out a few things about it. RisingZan mentioned early on that Eschew Materials would make a spell a full round action, this is not the case. Eschew materials is actually a general feat, not a metamagic feat, so the problem of spontaneous casting isn't in fact a problem.
It should be noted that this thread started in 2003. Not sure on the exact date, but 3.5 was either not released yet, or was still brand new, and nobody would willingly admit to using it. 3.0 Eschew Materials was a Metamagic feat, meaning it would indeed give you a full round casting time. The class has changed a bit since this was written. Not much, but enough that everyone should remember that discussion early on was using 3.0 rules only.
Sorcerers aren't bad for what they do. They're not quite as versatile, but they require a more clever player to take full advantage of a sorcerer.
Wizards and specialist wizards are fairly easy. You can pick and choose your spells (as your DM allows it), and can have fairly easy access to anything you can tote with you, as well as better item creation potential.
Familiars and animal companions have always been a bit of a sore spot to me. I don't see why they are a given class ability. I think they should be optional (available as a feat). I always give my players the option to switch out familiar or animal companion ability for a relevant feat that fits the character concept. No major problems or complaints so far. In fact, wizard published a flaw a while back for sorcerers, 'loner' or something like that which is in effect the same thing except that you can never gain a familiar/animal companion.
The biggest problem I see with the sorcerers is that they were poorly planned out. They strike me as a variant spellcaster over a core class. Kind of like a specialized wizard taken to an extreme. Every other class 'loses something' when they take a PrC, now the relative value of this is up to debate, but unless the PrC reduces the caster progression, there is no reason for a sorcerer to not take a PrC. That strikes me as a bit off. Of course part of this stems from the fact that most spellcasting PrCs aren't balanced. The gain usually outweighs the loss, in some cases by an extreme margin. Most of the 'balanced' PrCs for arcane casters are deemed 'too weak' or 'unplayable'.
When I got the Complete Arcane and saw the warlock, my first thought was 'this is what the sorcerer should have been. The only thing I would add to the Warlock would be some more invocations. Something along an elemental twist for good measure.
20d4 + CON HD
15 Skill choices
2 Class features (Familiar/ Scribe Scroll)
Draconic language
7 Feats
4 bonus feats
44 spells cast per day
Potentially Infinite spell selection
20th Level Sorcerer CHA 19
20d4 + CON HD
6 Skill Choices
1 Class feature (Familiar)
7 Feats
64 spells cast per day
43 spells known
Spontaneous Casting
As a base of minimum requirements to attain 20th level the spellcasters have the minimum attributes for miscellaneous example. Granted 20 extra spells per day is absolutely nothing to sneeze at it. It is all the other stuff that leaves the sorcerer out in the cold. If a sorcerer is only going to be a Fireball hurling scorched earth machine then those bonus spells work out fine, however with the wizards primary attribute not only effecting the spellcasting ability but also the sheer number of skill points they acquire. Never mind the potential ability to specialize, which does limit 2 schools from them, and/or Spell Mastery which means they still need to prepare their spells they just don’t need a spellbook to do so.
The sorcerer gets the same HD, the same animal sidekick still needs to use material components, they are outclassed by their limited number of skills the overall number of feats they can acquire, level progression to gain new spells, and lacking sheer incentive to even remain a sorcerer. All for the ability to cast A LOT though limited number of spells per day with no preparation, yet magic is supposed to come naturally to the sorcerer, not a learned and studied Art like it is for the wizard.
The wizard is however limited by the spellbook, both their need for it and the fact that technically it is considered part of the wealth (though I’ve yet to have met a DM that considered it, myself included, too much of a hassle to keep track of). Their primary strength lies in preparation and the knowledge before hand of what’s going to happen, otherwise the can run into the same problem as a sorcerer. If a wizard prepare for ice trolls but ends up fighting fire giants then he’s effectively screwed versus if the sorcerer has a fire damage spell and an ice damage spell in their arsenal.
As I said before 20 extra spontaneously cast spells is absolutely nothing to be dismissed but other than that 1 trick pony there is no incentive to stay with a sorcerer for 20 levels it’s a class of diminishing returns as is. Giving them Eschew Materials and a couple more skills, is not severely unbalancing act.
Now if its MORE then just roleplay and actually entails bonuses.... well first of all, a draconic heritage means he could be a dragon disciple. If its more then that then he has a bloodline, follow bloodline rules in unearthed arcana.
Let's never forget the age-old adage that a wizard is nothing if the sorcerer sets the spellbook on fire the night before. That right there is a great advantage over the poor wizard.
The biggest problem I see with the sorcerers is that they were poorly planned out. They strike me as a variant spellcaster over a core class. Kind of like a specialized wizard taken to an extreme. Every other class 'loses something' when they take a PrC, now the relative value of this is up to debate, but unless the PrC reduces the caster progression, there is no reason for a sorcerer to not take a PrC. That strikes me as a bit off. Of course part of this stems from the fact that most spellcasting PrCs aren't balanced. The gain usually outweighs the loss, in some cases by an extreme margin. Most of the 'balanced' PrCs for arcane casters are deemed 'too weak' or 'unplayable'.
Amen Brother!
This is the issue, that is often not acknowledged by 98% of the D&D playing community - Any character with more than 6 Sorcerer levels is poorly designed, because you lose NOTHING to move to a PrC.
What the sorcerer class needs is a REASON to entice a character to STAY a sorcerer. Class abilities that improve as you go up levels is the only thing I can see helping.
I personally allow sorcerers to choose one of the following, based on the colour of their Draconic Heritage:
1. Energy resistance (that scales with level) based off of their Draconic Heritage (1 point per 2 levels).
OR
2. Focus in one school of magic, (a natural predilection for Transmutation for instance) that scales with level (+1 Caster level in school per 5 levels).
OR
3. a magical "favoured enemy" similar to Rangers, that goes up +2 every 5 levels (fey, aberrations, etc).
OR
4. A progression to becoming an outsider, similar to a Monk or Druid, though slightly weaker.
Each of these four options speaks to the nature of the magic within the sorcerer... Why do they have this spark?
I agree with giving them eschew materials, as a free feat at level one in place of the Familiar...
BUT, if we add one of these things, we nerf the wizard in relative terms... The sorcerer's primary stat, Cha, is a darn powerful stat, considering a single level dip in Paladin dramatically helps saves, and there's dozens of PrC's that rely heavily on Charisma - Thus the Wizard isn't that much better off with Intelligence. Thus, I see the solution to balancing the (new and improved) sorcerer lies in Buffing the Wizard slightly.
For me, I allow the Wizard to cast spells out of his spellbook, at ten times the casting time - that forbids them cracking open the spellbook in the middle of combat, but he retains flexibility in non-combat situations, allowing the Wizard to memorize combat useful spells. Also, I allow the Wizard to reduce the XP necessary to craft items by up to 50% if they get other characters to share the XP burden - for instance, having a Fighter assist in crafting a magic sword by pumping the bellows, hammering steel, etc.
Lastly, I like Wynter's idea, and I think that I will make Sorcerers outlaws in my campaign world. In some societies where Wizards run the show, if one is found to be a sorcerer, they will be immediately put to death...
L8er
evilgenius
Wizards will always come out on top.
No, they won't.
What the sorcerer class needs is a REASON to entice a character to STAY a sorcerer. Class abilities that improve as you go up levels is the only thing I can see helping.
*Ahem* [points to sig]
I think the most critical problem, and the one that you can't logic out of existence, is that a Sorcerer has no business ever having the phrase "Sor 11" on his character sheet. Every sorcerer who lives should be in a PRC by 11th level, because there is NO REASON NOT TO. You lose NOTHING for getting into a PRC that gives full casting AND class features.
A sorcerer needs to have some class features, like the 5 bonus feats wizards get, to give players a reason to stay in their primary class.
A d6 and a few extra skill points go a long way towards that. Add a couple class features (bonus feats, for example) and you have a good reason not to turn into a PRC as soon as you possibly can.
This thread seems to have wandered a little. If you read Edymnion's original post, he nowhere complains that Sorcs have too little raw power. His complaints are more related to flavor.
I think the most critical problem, and the one that you can't logic out of existence, is that a Sorcerer has no business ever having the phrase "Sor 11" on his character sheet. Every sorcerer who lives should be in a PRC by 11th level, because there is NO REASON NOT TO. You lose NOTHING for getting into a PRC that gives full casting AND class features.
A sorcerer needs to have some class features, like the 5 bonus feats wizards get, to give players a reason to stay in their primary class.
A d6 and a few extra skill points go a long way towards that. Add a couple class features (bonus feats, for example) and you have a good reason not to turn into a PRC as soon as you possibly can.
Now, now, your familiar won't increase if you go PrC But other than the Familiar, no reason to stay a Sorcerer only.
I guess Wizards of the Coast thinks Familiar are that darn good!
Seriously though, I haven't seen a single person who actually thought having a familiar was a GOOD idea. Even if they were absolutely free, people would rather let it go to waste then risk all that a familiar entails. It is usually DM controlled, it is too weak in combat (half of your hp.. and you have a D4), it has got obscene penalties if it dies, and it doesn't even give any worthwhile benefits anymore. (Oh wow, a +2 to a skill if its in a mile radius... Oh and it can deliver a touch attack while risking its gruesome death... SIGN ME UP!)
Most arcane PRCs have KN skill and feat requirements. By level 6, a wizard tends to have an advantage in both categories. So while the sorcerer LOSES less by PRC-ing AFTER he joins the PRC, he loses more BEFORE he joins...by taking feats/skills/etc even spells known that didn't advance his character.
After all, the only thing you lose as a wizard is familiar progression and one feat every 5 levels. That's 1-2 feats less than the sorcerer loses, yes, but the wizard had more feats to begin with, and more skill points to play with. This is especially true if the sorc had to take arcane preparation to get into the PRC. Not everyone believes sorcerers need quicken spell so it is a truly wasted feat.
I, too, think the Sorcerer has always needed a little something. While not terribly underpowered (The capacity to throw multiple attack spells constantly comes to mind), ever since I played one, I felt terribly handicapped. A good story, a good roleplaying experience, but all I was ever used for was a walking artillery piece.
In the game that I run, I tend to use Szatany's Sorcerer variant for a straight Sorcerer, but with the addition of Bluff, Intimidate, and Gather Information to represent what I consider obvious skills a blatantly charismatic-from-birth-uses force of will/charisma to warp reality character would have. (If he uses force of will to cast Fireball, but can't channel that into, somehow, being intimidating as a trained skill, well, I'm confused.)
Also, I may have bumped up their skills per level to 4+ too. They need it, especially in my games where skills are useful for everyone, "face" or not.
I think a player of mine is currently using the Battle Sorcerer, and plays about equal time to the Academy Student Wizard in the group.
These are the changes that I'm planning on adding into the campaign that I'm starting up in a few weeks. This is more-or-less a rough draft, and I'm going to be getting some feedback on it from some of the players in our group, as well as our current GM, and I may tweak it from where it stand now.
Modifications to the Sorcerer:
- Hit Die: d6
- Skills: +2 per level (+8 @ lvl 1)
- Class Skills: Remove Bluff. Add Intimidate OR Diplomacy OR Bluff, AND one charisma based skill of choice (can include either of the two skills not chosen previously).
- Spells per Day: At lvl 3 and every 2 levels there after (5, 7, etc...) gain 0 spells per day of one level higher then the highest castable. (ie. at lvl 3 they have 0 2nd level spells per day) no spells of this level are known, but if the sorcerer has bonus spells due to a high ability score then they can be used to apply metamagic feats to spells. This also allows the sorcerer to qualify for prestige classes at the same time as the wizard.
- Spell Effects: Every time the Sorcerer casts a spell, it is accompanied by some other effect. This can be anything from glowing light radiating from the casters eyes, to a mysterious wind blowing the casters hair and clothes about. This effect cannot be hidden or turned off in any way. The player is free to come up with any effect, subject to the approval of the DM. The effects have no impact on anything other then an obvious sign that the sorcerer is casting a spell. The display is stronger the higher level spell that's being cast (ie. for a 1st level spell, the sorcerers hair may blow about a little, despite the lack of wind. For a 9th level spell it will appear to others that the sorcerer is standing in the heart of a small tornado).
- Common Misconception: For one reason or another the common people don't have a lot of respect for sorcerers. Many commoners believe that sorcerers gain their powers from supernatural sorcerer, either demons, or dragons, or angels, or something completely different, depending on who you talk to. This, combined with the obvious display of power the sorcerers manifest when casting a spell, means that the common folk may respect or fear the sorcerer, but they rarely call them friend.
- Summon Familiar: The sorcerer no longer automatically begins with the ability to summon a familiar (though the ability to summon a familiar can still be gained through taking a feat from Complete Arcane)
- Bonus Feats:
- - lvl 1: Eschew Materials
- - lvl 5: Silent Spell
- - lvl 10: Still Spell
- - lvl 15: Energy Substitution (you do not require the 5 ranks in spellcraft to take gain this bonus feat)
- - lvl 20: Any Metamagic Feat (you must still meet the prerequisites of it)
I've read this before, but it turned up on the top of the list, so I thought I'd finally put my two cents in.
I, too, think the Sorcerer has always needed a little something. While not terribly underpowered (The capacity to throw multiple attack spells constantly comes to mind), ever since I played one, I felt terribly handicapped. A good story, a good roleplaying experience, but all I was ever used for was a walking artillery piece.
What you are describing is a warmage, not a sorcerer. A sorcerer can (and often does) end up like that...all attack spells, no flexibility.
But you actually have enough spells known to have several forms of attack, 1-2 utility, 1-2 mobility and 1-2 defensive spells all by level 6. In level 1-5 you can fill out your gaps with scrolls, assuming they can be purchased, for very cheap..just as a wizard can fill out his lack of spell slots with scrolls for only slightly less cost in money but larger cost in time.
This sorcerer is going to feel ineffective a lot of the time (L6). I did not quite cripple him by eliminating read magic, but it shows what can go wrong with a sorcerer build. None of these are really bad spells, they all have their uses, and some are very good. But they don't synergize or grant any flexibility, and not one has any use outside of a combat, offensive action, other than two cantrips.
L0 Ray of Frost, Acid Splash, Daze, Disrupt Undead, Touch of Fatigue, Resistance, Read Magic
L1 magic missile, color spray, ray of enfeeblement, shocking grasp
L2 glitterdust, searing ray
L3 fireball
Compare to this list, which keeps a couple of the best attack spells but mixes in a lot more options:
L0 Prestidigitation, Acid Splash, Detect Magic, mage hand, Ghost Sound,
Dancing Lights, Read Magic (for a Gnome, swap the 3 cantrips gnomes get for detect poison, open/close and mending)
L1 magic missile, silent image, grease, charm person
L2 glitterdust, false life
L3 Fireball
Magic missile, glitterdust and fireball remain key offensive spells, because all 3 are very powerful for their level. False Life is probably the single best defensive buff for a sorcerer, if you only choose one. Casts well before combat, gives you the hitpoints of a fighter (or at least cleric) and you can cast it again if the temp hitpoints go away for a "heal yourself sorta" capability. Grease can be used for the usual offensive trip/disarm options but as readied action can disrupt a charge (if they can't make both a reflex save or accelerated balance check) AND can help protect a party member from a grapple or help escape artist exits from entangle or web. charm person is great on a character that can cast it until it sticks, especially a high cha character that can convince charmed guys to go a bit against their nature. Best out of combat, cast repeatedly on thugs who are ko'ed and then woken up with just their new best friend around to spill their secrets.
Silent image is very flexible, in and out of combat. Its big downside is your need to concentrate, but it is still worth a slot.
Your cantrips now provide some utility options, spotting magical traps or loot, remotely manipulating objects, making illusory noises (or enhancing your silent images) etc.
The big lack in this spell mix is mobility. That should be fixed up level 7, with fly (or if you have access to Complete Adventurer) sudden fly. A bit more battlefield control than Grease is also nice.
Your feats can also expand capabilities a lot, metamagic in particular. Like the stunning effect of Color spray or tripping effect of grease but hate its low save DC? Get heigten spell (true of all the good low level save or XXX spells)
Have lots of direct damage spells like magic missile or fireball? Empower is a great level 9 feat.
Lots of short range ray spells? Aside from the archery feats (point blank and precise), enlarge spell might get more use out of them, especially if you want to layer on more metamagic like empower that will prevent you from closing the range.
Your ability to make use of metamagic is much higher than a prepared caster, in spite of the full round casting time.
WotC made the sorcerer a wizard clone but then decided that they would much rather have a caster/fighter mix instead a full caster but it was too late to change it. So WotC is now stuck with a primary caster they don't want (which explains the lack of support for sorcerers) and try to remodel the sorcerer to a caster/fighter by making all new stuff for him pointing in that direction.
Possibilities?
1. (Already mentioned) Make them into street-smart folks, with more skill points and more class skills.
2. Make them better at melee - give them cleric BAB progression and d6 hp.
3. Give them a unique ability that relates to their special relationship with magic, perhaps:
a) SR that grows with level
b) Every few levels, let them transfer a spell they use a lot into a supernatural ability that they can use 1 (2? 3? level-dependent?) times/day (e.g. 0 level spell at level 3, 1st level spell at level 6, ... all up to a 5th level one at level 18). You could cap the level at 3 and allow feats to be added for the extra levels or something. You could do it every 5 levels instead, that might be more balanced.
c) Something like 'absorb spell energy' might be interesting (refill an empty slot by absorbing a spell cast at you, requiring a spellcraft check) - have the ability level indexed
I think all of the above have at least a little flavour and would make switching into a PrC cost something. I think just giving bonus feats makes takes them too close to being a wizard, and is too generic at any rate.
And yeah - I already always give them eschew materials. It just goes with the concept.
Whilst they lack the specialisation factor of Wizards (which Sorcs did better anyway). They regain it in their unrestricted elemental focuses. Combine it with spell secrets (which are far more potent than some metamagics) and you've got a far more flexible and dependable Wizard. They have some great spells on offer, their spellbook isn't really a spellbook, they have unique spells to boot and their taboo's are far more interesting.
Sure Wizards can still function, crafting items you were going to buy anyway, knowing things you didn't need to know, specialising in things you didn't need, but really - Wu-jen is far more balanced.
Eschew materials at 1st,
Give them the other charisma based class skills
Skills 2 per level + instead of using Int use Cha, but the Cha bonuses must be used on your charisma based skills
At 5th level you get use choose 1 of your 1st levels spells 2 per day as a supernatural ability
At 10th level you get to choose 1 of your 2nd levels spells 2 per day as a supernatural ability
At 15th level you get to choose 1 of your 3rd levels spells 2 per day as a supernatural ability
At 20th level you get to choose 1 of your 4th levels spells 2 per day as a supernatural ability
At levels 10, 15 and 20 you get an extra 1 spell per day on your bonus super natural abilities
(So at 20th level you get 5 1st, 4 2nd, 3 3rd and 2 4th level spells)
Also at 12th throw in something like greater eschew materials (you don't need to use materials 100gp or under)
1.) Bonus to Gather Information - Having lots of followers in many different places allows you to know more about what's going on in the world.
2.) Bonus to Diplomacy - Your followers can tell other people what a great person you are. Having a good reputation makes people treat you better.
3.) Bonus to Intimidate - Your followers can tell other people what a terrible person you are. Having a really, really bad reputation can make people fear you.
4.) Access to rare and powerful items - One or more of your followers might have black market contacts. Or maybe they heard this legend about a powerful sword encased in stone which only the true king can take.
Another thing, how do sorcerers learn the somatic, material, focus, and verbal components for their spells? Do they discover it by accident, or do they simply "know" what the components are? Do sorcerers know the names of their spells?
Can they be taught by other sorcerers? The Player's Handbook suggests that older, more experienced sorcerers can help new sorcerers understand their powers. What exactly does this mean? Could this be a "misery loves company" thing, or can the older sorcerer actually teach the younger one how to cast a spell?
And if they can be taught how to cast certain spells, can they learn any spell, or are they limited by what magic they have in their blood? In the Wheel of Time, channelers (sorcerers) could be taught how to channel (cast) certain weaves (spells), but not all channelers can learn all weaves. Some can't heal no matter how hard they practice. Some can heal without being taught how.
Are there any D&D novels that have a sorcerer as a main or major character? And no, please don't mention any of those T.H. Lain books...
Another thing, how do sorcerers learn the somatic, material, focus, and verbal components for their spells? Do they discover it by accident, or do they simply "know" what the components are? Do sorcerers know the names of their spells?
If we go purely by the flavor text of the sorcerer, the sorcerer learns their spells through their own intuition. Essentially, they figure out, on their own, how to do the same thing that a wizard would learn in a school with a teacher.
Their knowledge of spells is intuitive, not taught such as in the more schooled manner of wizards.
Can they be taught by other sorcerers?
Yes. Sorcerers can be taught just like anyone else.
The Player's Handbook suggests that older, more experienced sorcerers can help new sorcerers understand their powers. What exactly does this mean?
It means exactly what it says. Sorcerers don't start knowing how to cast all of their spells.
A more experienced sorcerer can teach a younger sorcerer the things the younger sorcerer would otherwise have to figure out on their own.
Could this be a "misery loves company" thing, or can the older sorcerer actually teach the younger one how to cast a spell?
An older sorcerer can teach a younger sorcerer how to cast a spell, yes.
And if they can be taught how to cast certain spells, can they learn any spell, or are they limited by what magic they have in their blood?
Sorcerers don't have "magic in their blood." They're not warlocks (complete arcane.)
They learn spells in a similar manner as wizards. What's different is that they don't have to be taught as wizards do and they don't cast spells in the same manner.
In the Wheel of Time, channelers (sorcerers) could be taught how to channel (cast) certain weaves (spells), but not all channelers can learn all weaves. Some can't heal no matter how hard they practice. Some can heal without being taught how.
That's a campaign-specific sorcerer that has no bearing on the more generic D&D sorcerer. Basically, WoT has their version of the sorcerer, just as any other campaign setting has a version of the D&D classes. Therefore, WoT has no bearing.
Are there any D&D novels that have a sorcerer as a main or major character? And no, please don't mention any of those T.H. Lain books...
The only sorcerers that come immediately to mind is the Simbul (Forgotten Realms) and Hennet. I'm not keen on a lot of D&D novels, so I don't know what specific ones to look for, but I know of a series of books that do feature the core D&D iconics (including Hennet, the iconic sorcerer) and there are a lot of FR books, I'm sure, that involve the Simbul.
1. Choosing your spells. While it is well and good to do what is fun and natural, think about how you can do something fun and natural that also covers something you can not already do. Teach them about offense, defense, mobility and utility, and let their own intuitive sense of magic find the right spell mix to cover all the bases.
2. The power of metamagic. While you can't predict how a sorcerer will grow in power, it seems reasonable that a mentor might say "You know, you have been complaining about how your assortment of ray spells always seems to be just out of range. There isn't any reason why you can't make them longer for a little more power. Just push harder (which might lead to picking up enlarge spell in a few levels." A sorcerer's spells will indicate beneficial metamagics, and beneficial metamagics might suggest new spells to learn. "Nice ray of enfeeblement. You know there is a way to make it even more powerful, by pushing more energy in. But not everyone can do it."
3. Basic survival stuff. Don't stand around to be full-attacked. Mobility and having them unable to hit you (blink/displacement/mirror image, etc) works better than simulating armor most of the time. Disguising yourself to look like something other than a sorcerer might keep you alive when ambushed. Have a plan if you are grappled. Have a plan if you are tripped. Have a plan if you are silenced.
4. Equipment suggestions, to cover weaknesses in spells known and to encourage basic stuff like. "Jane, you are a beginning sorcereress. You managed to get 500gp from the kobold lair, that's great. Don't buy a masterwork crossbow. Instead buy some potions of cure light wounds and twelve level 1 scrolls of spells you don't have, to give you both more endurance in combat spellcasting, and more options. Someday you will grow out of the need for quite as many scrolls, but that won't happen until you know many more spells."
It is similar to how a comedian is mentored - the experienced guy can't just pass on his own jokes, but he can teach the new guy a lot about how to succeed in the business, how to read a crowd, what to do if heckled, etc.