The 'Sweet Spot' - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

The 'Sweet Spot'

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
true_atlantean
Aug 27, 2007 5:47:14 During the YouTube presentation to pitch 4th edition, one of the developers said tey found the 'sweet spot' of character advancement (his word not mine) to be between 7th and 14th levels.

I'd always considered 5th to be the best level when playing Mages and Clerics(access to 3rd level spells).

Does anyone else see a 'golden period' of character advancement and does this change from the player and DM perspectives?

I thought it might be an interesting topic.
#2
handsome_stranger
Aug 27, 2007 6:51:48 For me, it's always been something like 5-8. The combatants aren't fragile, nor are they godlike, but they've got some staying power. The spellcasters aren't walking wands of sleep anymore, nor are they incinerating planets, but they've got some options. Much lower than that and the characters are too fragile. Much higher than that and the DM has to keep pounding on the same three chinks in their armor.

D20 Fantasy inflated a lot of things. I get the impression Wizbro's third try at inventing a FRPG is going to continue that.
#3
elondir
Aug 27, 2007 8:38:30 My thoughts exactly. The sweet spot for me, using the full 3.5 set and minis, is 5-10. You're not godlike and you're not a wimp. Using a massively simplified version of the rules (essentially OD&D without minis and divination magic) I like 5-40 (yes, 20 levels into epic). I prefer a high-speed, high powered game with about ten encounters per four hours. 3.5 is much too slow for my taste.
#4
zombiegleemax
Aug 27, 2007 12:28:01 I also think that in 2nd and 3rd Edition (do not know others) the most decisive and fun to play levels are between 5 and 10. There is however always a difference when playing different classes. IMO fighters have more fun at low levels than mages, but the reasons should be obvious.
#5
true_atlantean
Aug 28, 2007 5:53:37 The 5-10 range also represents the time that you've grown into your character, are confident in role-playing them and you have a handle on how their personality actually works. Added to that is that you've had enough time to learn the rules and have a plan for advancement.

I've found that most of my campaigns have a 'golden age' during this time and most of the hard adventuring is achieved.

Having said that, I really enjoy (as a DM) levels 1-4 as you watch the players move into a survivalist mode - realising that the game world is a scary place and using their wits to ensure that they are able to see the heady heights of 5th level. There is almost an audible sigh of relief at my table when 5th level is achieved.

Given the amount of xp needed in AD&D (especially if one was a Wizard) 5th level is quite the achievement.
#6
elondir
Aug 28, 2007 8:02:09 The only problem with the power levels above 5th - if you start at 1st - is that they've been in survival mode for a few levels and have learned tactics that can drop anything with minimal damage to themselves. Add that to the real meat of the game, which kicks in at 5th and sometimes I feel was designed for blindly running into monsters, and you end up throwing CR 17's at 11th level characters.

Yeah, back in the day 5th level was a chore to reach and 9th was Herculean. I charted out the number of same-level encounters to reach each level and found a rough bell curve with a small spike around 2nd level, then the main bell curve usually peaking at 10th, then above 15th the xp system's brokenness appears as you need fewer and fewer encounters to level up.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 true_atlantean Aug 27, 2007 5:47:14	During the YouTube presentation to pitch 4th edition, one of the developers said tey found the 'sweet spot' of character advancement (his word not mine) to be between 7th and 14th levels. I'd always considered 5th to be the best level when playing Mages and Clerics(access to 3rd level spells). Does anyone else see a 'golden period' of character advancement and does this change from the player and DM perspectives? I thought it might be an interesting topic.
#2 handsome_stranger Aug 27, 2007 6:51:48	For me, it's always been something like 5-8. The combatants aren't fragile, nor are they godlike, but they've got some staying power. The spellcasters aren't walking wands of sleep anymore, nor are they incinerating planets, but they've got some options. Much lower than that and the characters are too fragile. Much higher than that and the DM has to keep pounding on the same three chinks in their armor. D20 Fantasy inflated a lot of things. I get the impression Wizbro's third try at inventing a FRPG is going to continue that.
#3 elondir Aug 27, 2007 8:38:30	My thoughts exactly. The sweet spot for me, using the full 3.5 set and minis, is 5-10. You're not godlike and you're not a wimp. Using a massively simplified version of the rules (essentially OD&D without minis and divination magic) I like 5-40 (yes, 20 levels into epic). I prefer a high-speed, high powered game with about ten encounters per four hours. 3.5 is much too slow for my taste.
#4 zombiegleemax Aug 27, 2007 12:28:01	I also think that in 2nd and 3rd Edition (do not know others) the most decisive and fun to play levels are between 5 and 10. There is however always a difference when playing different classes. IMO fighters have more fun at low levels than mages, but the reasons should be obvious.
#5 true_atlantean Aug 28, 2007 5:53:37	The 5-10 range also represents the time that you've grown into your character, are confident in role-playing them and you have a handle on how their personality actually works. Added to that is that you've had enough time to learn the rules and have a plan for advancement. I've found that most of my campaigns have a 'golden age' during this time and most of the hard adventuring is achieved. Having said that, I really enjoy (as a DM) levels 1-4 as you watch the players move into a survivalist mode - realising that the game world is a scary place and using their wits to ensure that they are able to see the heady heights of 5th level. There is almost an audible sigh of relief at my table when 5th level is achieved. Given the amount of xp needed in AD&D (especially if one was a Wizard) 5th level is quite the achievement.
#6 elondir Aug 28, 2007 8:02:09	The only problem with the power levels above 5th - if you start at 1st - is that they've been in survival mode for a few levels and have learned tactics that can drop anything with minimal damage to themselves. Add that to the real meat of the game, which kicks in at 5th and sometimes I feel was designed for blindly running into monsters, and you end up throwing CR 17's at 11th level characters. Yeah, back in the day 5th level was a chore to reach and 9th was Herculean. I charted out the number of same-level encounters to reach each level and found a rough bell curve with a small spike around 2nd level, then the main bell curve usually peaking at 10th, then above 15th the xp system's brokenness appears as you need fewer and fewer encounters to level up.