-Int 16 (+3)
-4 Ranks of Truespeak
-Skill Focus (Truespeak)
For a total of +10 to his checks.
When trying to use a particular utterance on Targ'at the 3rd level half-orc fighter the DC is 21. He must roll an 11 in order to affect him the first time, 13 the second, 15 the third, and so on.
After going adventuring, he reaches level 20, but loses all of his items in a pyramid scheme. His stats are as follows:
-Int 20 (+5)
-23 ranks of Truespeak
-Skill Focus (Truespeak)
For a total of +31 to his checks.
He bumps into another orc, Targ'at's grandson Vik'tem, who is also a third level half-orc fighter. Ia'tomless cannot fail to affect Vik'tem until he is using a particular utterance for the 11th time that day, and then only on a one.
But Wilder, you say, he get worse at affecting creatures that are his challenge rating. No he doesn't. He actually gets better at affecting creatures of higher level, but the most powerful ones require that he has some help. Yes, it is harder to affect your allies (or yourself) as they level, but that's because they are now tougher creatures. You haven't gotten worse at affecting the creatures around you. You can actually affect those challenge ratings easier and easier. You even need less help in affecting the most powerful creatures.
Truespeak is a skill. That means that at first level you have the potential to affect a CR 20 with enough help. As you level up you need less and less help in doing it. This isn't like traditional spellcasting, this is a skill with multiple uses and each time you take an utterance you gain the ability to use the skill for something else. The Truespeak Difficulty Check for a CR 5 creature is the same when you are at first level as it is when you are twentieth.
Are the DCs high? Yes. Is it outside of expectation that the Truenamer will have an item or two to help with his abilities? About as out there as expecting a fighter to have a magic weapon, or a wizard to have picked up a staff.
So why are the high DCs? Dungeons and Dragons assume that characters are able to purchase items to improve their abilities. It is fair to expect a rogue to hit a DC 45 at 20th level in opening a lock or disarming a trap, but that ability has no real use in combat unlike utterances. If the DC's for Truespeaking were too low a character with level appropriate wealth would be able to reliably affect high level creatures with utterances they have no defense against, over and over again. As it is, a 20th level Truenamer with level appropriate wealth has the ability to affect CR 20 creatures without too much difficulty.
Remember that the effects the Truenamer can hand out mean more at higher levels. A +5 nameless bonus to Saves and DR 5/- means quite a lot to a 20th level fighter, making their job much easier. From the same utterance you can inflict a -5 penalty to saves and AC (no save) to any enemy (or multiple ones because of Speak to the Masses) and can set up for some amazingly powerful combos in the hands of intelligent players. Also, the ability to empower every spell that an ally casts during a 5 round period becomes much more powerful when you're talking about a 20th level caster than you are about even a 15th level one. It makes sense that it should be harder to affect a more powerful creature than a lower level one. That is why powerful creatures have high saving throws, high armor classes, and defenses like Damage Reduction. The nameless bonuses that high level utterances give are extremely attractive, but there has to be some limit to the number of times they can be reliably doled out.
Truenamers do not get weaker as they level up, but their abilities, just as any other skill or attack, requires a bit of help to get those higher numbers. It might seem daunting, but a Truenamer doesn't need that much to stay competitive at high levels. If you don't have any magic items in your game, that's fine. Go ahead and adjust the Truenamer. If you do, let them expect the same opportunities to raise their abilities that the other classes have.
But Wilder, you say, he get worse at affecting creatures that are his challenge rating. No he doesn't. He actually gets better at affecting creatures of higher level, but the most powerful ones require that he has some help. Yes, it is harder to affect your allies (or yourself) as they level, but that's because they are now tougher creatures. You haven't gotten worse at affecting the creatures around you. You can actually affect those challenge ratings easier and easier. You even need less help in affecting the most powerful creatures.
I disagree.
All ones of equal level require help.
Without help:
-Int 20 (+5)
-23 ranks of Truespeak
-Skill Focus (Truespeak)
For a total of +31 to his checks.
To affect equal level CRs DC 55. Unless, you are expecting to fight weaker enemies (how often do you fight level 3's at level 20?) You don't get exp anymore from them according to exp chart. You need to roll 24 on a d20. That is negative 110% chance. I don't know about you but I don't like those odds.
There are ways to produce skill checks that can easily keep up with these DCs, but they require a good deal of optimization, which should not be required to affect creatures of appropriate CR with you class features. You don't have to optimize a fighter's skill check to power attack an equal CR opponent, you don't have to optimize a skill check for a wizard to cast magic missile on an equal CR foe, you shouldn't have to twink a skill check to use truespeak on a creature of your CR.
The massive ability to twink a skill check within the existing material also creates a duality, wherein the truenamer either cannot affect his foes, or can affect them too easily. For example, a 16th Human Truenamer with 20 int, max ranks, and skill focus has a +27 skill check, he requires a DC 47 check to use truespeak on a CR 16 opponent, a 5% chance of success
An Illumian Marshal1/Truenamer15 with 20 int, 16 charisma, skill focus, the Naen Sigil, Enhanced Power Sigils, Motivate Intelligence, an Item Familiar, max ranks, max item familiar investment, and leadership for a half fey star elf saint Marshal4 cohort has a +60 skill check, and will only fail 10% of the time the 8th time he uses the same utterance on a CR 16 opponent.
That’s the problem, if you don't go out of your way to optimize, you won't keep up with the competition you are expected to face. If you do go out of your way, you'll blow the competition away.
Bottom Line: Poorly Designed Mechanic.
That’s the problem, if you don't go out of your way to optimize, you won't keep up with the competition you are expected to face. If you do go out of your way, you'll blow the competition away.
Bottom Line: Poorly Designed Mechanic.
Agreed. But:
1) Defaulting to too difficult rather than too easy is a necessity.
2) What is the alternative? No matter what you make the formula, anything based on a skill check is going to run precisely into this problem.
If you still wish to devise a system which gets progressively more difficult the more often a Truenamer uses his utterances rather than X/day, what do base it on?
So,
-Int 20 (+5)
-23 ranks of Truespeak
-Skill Focus (Truespeak)
-Headband of Intellegence +8 (+4)
-Item with comp. bonus (+5)
becomes +40 (15 or higher to affect CR 20) with 2 items that fit well within a level 20 budget. I'm not sure (don't have my D&D books on me at the moment), but don't items that give skill bonuses go up to +10? I may be mistaken, but if not, then the truename check would be reasonable (10 or higher) for a 20th level character to affect a CR 20. But then again, I'm not an expert on the subject. I'm probably missing something.
A 20th-level fighter, for example, should be expected to hit a cr20 pit fiend on a fairly regular basis. With a 20 Strength, one feat (weapon focus), and a non-magical greatsword, he's hitting 30% of the time (on first swing) but with a 76% chance he won't overcome the DR and even if he does, he deals a maximum of 3dmg per round to a monster with Regeneration 5. No net effect. A fighter with no gear, and not optimized, can't take on a cr20 monster.
When you add in a couple of other feats, a +5 magic weapon that adds 25% to his attack, and a belt of giant's strength to add 15% to his attack, and these things add to damage as well... he's hitting 70% of the time, and suddenly it's closer to a fair fight. But you have to spend money on gear, and do a small bit of optimizing (i.e. buying feats intelligently, not min-maxing).
A 20th-level Truenamer needs to hit a dc55, according to one poster. With one feat, 20 intel, and max ranks, he gets +31. Add in a +5 skill-pump item, a +4 tome to add to intel, and a +6 circlet for intel, all within the DMG and costing less than 20% of a 20th-level character's gear total, and his check is +41. The odds still aren't great, but that's with minimal optimizing. Make it a custom +10 skill-pump (not unreasonable), and he passes the dc55 check 60% of the time, still with little optimizing. That's only slightly worse than the fighter's to-hit chance above, but if the OP was right about being able to lower an enemy's AC by 5, that's far more devastating to many creatures than a single hit, because it means EVERYONE is 25% more likely to hit.
And of course, you're one level away from Epic Skill Focus.
I see no problem with having to "twink" a skill check instead of an attack bonus, or spell penetration, etc. Bards have to max their perform ranks to get their class benefits, and need to pump their performances with gear to maximize Countersong and Fascinate. Druids effectively can't use their animal companions without having a decent Handle Animal check. Rogues aren't rogues without cracked-through-the-roof skills. It's just as viable a mechanic in the game as the attack bonus.
Again, I haven't gotten my hands on the book yet. I'm just basing this on what you guys have said thus far. What I'm gathering is that the mechanic is subject to horrible potential min-maxing, but is useless if you haven't put some effort and gold into making it work. To me, that sounds like every other mechanic in the game.
The massive ability to twink a skill check within the existing material also creates a duality, wherein the truenamer either cannot affect his foes, or can affect them too easily. For example, a 16th Human Truenamer with 20 int, max ranks, and skill focus has a +27 skill check, he requires a DC 47 check to use truespeak on a CR 16 opponent, a 5% chance of success
An Illumian Marshal1/Truenamer15 with 20 int, 16 charisma, skill focus, the Naen Sigil, Enhanced Power Sigils, Motivate Intelligence, an Item Familiar, max ranks, max item familiar investment, and leadership for a half fey star elf saint Marshal4 cohort has a +60 skill check, and will only fail 10% of the time the 8th time he uses the same utterance on a CR 16 opponent.
That’s the problem, if you don't go out of your way to optimize, you won't keep up with the competition you are expected to face. If you do go out of your way, you'll blow the competition away.
Bottom Line: Poorly Designed Mechanic.
I think luckily that most players fall in the middle between these two extremes.
How many of us actually play itemless characters at 16th level?
You're looking at a +6 Int item (+3 to check), a +10 Skill Item (listed in TOM) which is a 40 check on top of what you have for the stripped Truenamer. Now they need a 7 to affect someone. Much more realistic. (35% fail rate for a no save, looks pretty even for me) Also a very small percentage of total wealth.
I can't remember the last time I actually said 'Item Familiar' in a conversation with a DM and they didn't give me a dirty look.
1) It gets harder and harder to affect fellow party members. This makes most of my buff abilities fairly useless, especially considering the fairly short duration for said abilities.
2) Yes, I realize that they must factor equipment into the mathematical plan for the truenamer. The problem with it is when said items become a necessity. The problem isn't the demon or high CR monsters (After all a DM running a lower magic or lower magic item game is unlikely to throw you against such creatures or will properly adjust CR) The problem becomes again that your buff powers are effectively nulled.
3) The constantly increasing DC per use of an ability makes it hard to be effective longterm with the group. I understand that they were trying to figure out how to properly balance and make logical truenamer powers but the problem instead tends to be muddled. Yes, I can do something cool but I might only effectively get one or two uses of it.
4) Truename research is a crock, I spend huge amounts of money and time. I learn their truename, it adds a measly +2 to the save DC of my utterance and increases the difficulty for use as well. Give me auto-success or something because considering the average cost it's an effectively useless mechanic.
5) The new errata fixed one problem, but it effectively nerfed the one powerful ability. The map powers were great, and they were useful, with the new DC it now makes it less worthwhile to be a truenamer.
Look at it this way: Somewhere in the past, an NPC had to create these magic items, for their own purpose, or for someone else. It might've been handed down, or it might've been taken by a beast, but the point is that under no circumstance a creator of magic items will say to himself: "Somewhere in the future, an adventurer controlled by some external force will need an item that enhances exactly that attribute. Let's make it!" Any sane creator of magic items will not waste his precious experience, or even his soul, as it is said in some places, on a magic item that neither he nor a friend will need. (Please note that I have never actually played Dungeons & Dragons, but I have played written adventures, without dice.)
I think that if a player really wants a magic item, he should find someone with the appropriate item creation feats, and either give him the money to create the money, or otherwise persuade him to create the magic item for you. Of course, if you're a spellcaster, you could do it yourself. You'll experience an experience setback, but if it is as useful as you say it is, it will probably repay itself once the need arises.
As for the original point (finally), I'd say that I'd have to disagree. I don't know the formulae to find out what the Difficulty Class is for a certain Challenge Rating, but a Difficulty Class 55 Truespeak check to affect a Challenge Rating 20 creature is just insane. Let's assume that the Truenamer has the +31 bonus to Truespeak checks, he'll still need a 24 on a d20. Which is, if you haven't figured it out, impossible. You can bring out your argument that the Truenamer won't see another Challenge Rating 20 creature often, but he will, and when he does, he'll be in big trouble.
On a side note, you should also take into account that Truespeech is presented as an ancient skill, from the dawn of everything. This means that very few people will have even a glimpse of knowledge of this skill. I'd say a Difficulty Class 20 Knowledge (arcana) check would be required to even know about the existence of this skill. Then let your characters research it.
(I haven't read Tome of Magic, so anything I've said may have already been discussed. My apologies for not knowing.)
- Ancient Black Dragon (AC 38, HP 387, Attack Bonus +40, Fort 23, Ref 17, Will 20, Special Abilities: Insect Plague, DR 15/magic, Plant Growth, Corrupt Water, Darkness, Immune to Acid, Breath Weapon DC 31 DMG 20d4 [AVE 50], Frightful Presence DC 28, Sorcerer Level 11th, SR 25, CR 19)
- Wyrm Black Dragon (AC 39, HP 459, Attack Bonus +42, Fort 26, Ref 19, Will 23, Special Abilities: Insect Plague, DR 20/magic, Plant Growth, Corrupt Water, Darkness, Immune to Acid, Breath Weapon DC 34 DMG 22d4 [AVE 55], Frightful Presence DC 31, Sorcerer Level 13th, SR 26, CR 20)
- Very Old Blue Dragon (AC 37, HP 375, Attack Bonus +39, Fort 23, Ref 17, Will 21, Special Abilities: DR 15/magic, Hallucinatory Terrain, Ventriloquism, Sound Imitation, Immune to Electricity, Create/Destroy Water, Breath Weapon DC 31 DMG 18d8 [AVE 81], Frightful Presence DC 29, Sorcerer Level 11th, SR 25, CR 19)
- Ancient Blue Dragon (AC 38, HP 445, Attack Bonus +41, Fort 25, Ref 18, Will 23, Special Abilities: DR 20/magic, Hallucinatory Terrain, Ventriloquism, Sound Imitation, Immune to Electricity, Create/Destroy Water, Breath Weapon DC 34 DMG 20d8 [AVE 90], Frightful Presence DC 31, Sorcerer Level 13th, SR 27, CR 21)
- Very Old Brass Dragon (AC 35, HP 350, Attack Bonus +36, Fort 22, Ref 16, Will 20, Special Abilities: Immune to Fire, speak with animals, vulnerability to cold, endure elements, suggestion [DC 18], control winds, control weather, DR 15/magic, Create/Destroy Water, Breath Weapon DC 30 DMG 9d6 [AVE 31.5], Frightful Presence DC 28, Sorcerer Level 13th, SR 25, CR 19)
- Ancient Brass Dragon (AC 38, HP 387, Attack Bonus +40, Fort 23, Ref 17, Will 21, Special Abilities: Immune to Fire, speak with animals, vulnerability to cold, endure elements, suggestion [DC 18], control winds, control weather, DR 15/magic, Breath Weapon DC 31 DMG 10d6 [AVE 35], Frightful Presence DC 29, Sorcerer Level 15th, SR 27, CR 20)
- Wyrm Brass Dragon (AC 39, HP 459, Attack Bonus +42, Fort 26, Ref 19, Will 24, Special Abilities: Immune to Fire, speak with animals, vulnerability to cold, endure elements, suggestion [DC 20], control winds, control weather, DR 20/magic, Breath Weapon DC 34 DMG 11d6 [AVE 38.5], Frightful Presence DC 32, Sorcerer Level 17th, SR 28, CR 21)
- Old Bronze Dragon (AC 34, HP 337, Attack Bonus +35, Fort 21, Ref 15, Will 21, Special Abilities: Immune to electricity, water breathing, speak with animals, alternate form, create food and water, fog cloud, detect thoughts, DR 10/magic, Breath Weapon DC 29 DMG 16d6 [AVE 56], Frightful Presence DC 29, Sorcerer Level 11th, SR 25, CR 19)
- Very Old Bronze Dragon (AC 37, HP 375, Attack Bonus +39, Fort 23, Ref 17, Will 23, Special Abilities: Immune to electricity, water breathing, speak with animals, alternate form, create food and water, fog cloud, detect thoughts, DR 15/magic, Breath Weapon DC 29 DMG 18d6 [AVE 63], Frightful Presence DC 31, Sorcerer Level 13th, SR 26, CR 20)
- Old Copper Dragon (AC 29, HP 299, Attack Bonus +33, Fort 20, Ref 15, Will 19, Special Abilities: Immune to acid, spider climb, Stone Shape, transmute rock to mud/mud to rock, DR 10/magic, Breath Weapon DC 28 DMG 16d4 [AVE 40], Frightful Presence DC 27, Sorcerer Level 11th, SR 25, CR 19)
- Very Old Copper Dragon (AC 31, HP 362, Attack Bonus +37, Fort 22, Ref 16, Will 21, Special Abilities: Immune to acid, spider climb, Stone Shape, transmute rock to mud/mud to rock, DR 15/magic, Breath Weapon DC 30 DMG 18d4 [AVE 45], Frightful Presence DC 29, Sorcerer Level 13th, SR 26, CR 19)
- Balor (AC 35, HP 290, Attack Bonus +33, Fort 22, Ref 19, Will 19, Special Abilities: flaming whip, Vorpal sword, death throes, entangle, summon demon, DR 15/cold iron and good, flaming body, immune to electricity, immune to fire, immune to poison, resistance to acid 10, resistance to cold 10, SR 28, telepathy 100ft, At will— blasphemy (DC 25), dominate monster (DC 27), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), insanity (DC 25), power word stun, telekinesis (DC 23), unholy aura (DC 26); 1/day—fire storm (DC 26), implosion (DC 27). [Caster level 20th for all spell-like abilities], true seeing, CR 20)
- Pit Fiend (AC 40, HP 225, Attack Bonus +30, Fort 19, Ref 19, Will 21, Special Abilities: Constrict, fear aura [Will DC 27], improved grab, summon devil, bite causes disease [Fort DC 27], DR 15/good and silver, immune to fire and poison, resistance to acid and cold 10, regeneration 5, see in darkness [including magical], At will—blasphemy (DC 25), create undead, fireball (DC 21), greater dispel magic, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), invisibility, magic circle against good, mass hold monster (DC 27), persistent image (DC 23), power word stun, unholy aura (DC 26); 1/day—meteor swarm (DC 27) [Caster level 18th for all spell-like abilities], 1x/year wish as the spell (caster level 20th), SR 32, telepathy 100ft, CR 20)
- Mature Gold Dragon (AC 33, HP 325, Attack Bonus +36, Fort 21, Ref 15, Will 20, Special Abilities: Alternate form, immune to fire, vulnerability to cold, water breathing, bless, luck bonus, DR 10/magic, Breath Weapon DC 29 DMG 14d10 [AVE 77], Frightful Presence DC 28, Sorcerer Level 9th, SR 25, CR 19)
- Old Gold Dragon (AC 34, HP 391, Attack Bonus +39, Fort 23, Ref 16, Will 23, Special Abilities: Alternate form, immune to fire, vulnerability to cold, water breathing, bless, luck bonus, geas/quest, detect gems, DR 10/magic, Breath Weapon DC 31 DMG 16d10 [AVE 88], Frightful Presence DC 31, Sorcerer Level 11th, SR 27, CR 21)
- Very Old Green Dragon (AC 36, HP 362, Attack Bonus +38, Fort 22, Ref 16, Will 20, Special Abilities: Immune to acid, water breathing, suggestion [Will DC 17], Plant Growth, DR 15/magic, Breath Weapon DC 30 DMG 18d6 [AVE 63], Frightful Presence DC 28, Sorcerer Level 11th, SR 25, CR 19)
- Ancient Green Dragon (AC 37, HP 432, Attack Bonus +40, Fort 25, Ref 18, Will 23, Special Abilities: Immune to acid, water breathing, suggestion [Will DC 17], Plant Growth, DR 15/magic, dominate person [Will DC 20], Breath Weapon DC 33 DMG 20d6 [AVE 70], Frightful Presence DC 31, Sorcerer Level 13th, SR 27, CR 21)
- Old Red Dragon (AC 33, HP 378, Attack Bonus +36, Fort 23, Ref 16, Will 21, Special Abilities: Immune to fire, vulnerability to cold, locate object, suggestion [Will DC 18], DR 10/magic, Breath Weapon DC 31 DMG 16d10 [AVE 88], Frightful Presence DC 29, Sorcerer Level 11th, SR 24, CR 20)
- Very Old Red Dragon (AC 36, HP 449, Attack Bonus +40, Fort 25, Ref 17, Will 23, Special Abilities: Immune to fire, vulnerability to cold, locate object, suggestion [Will DC 18], DR 15/magic, Breath Weapon DC 33 DMG 18d10 [AVE 99], Frightful Presence DC 31, Sorcerer Level 13th, SR 26, CR 21)
- Old Silver Dragon (AC 35, HP 350, Attack Bonus +36, Fort 22, Ref 16, Will 22, Special Abilities: Alternate form, immune to acid and cold, cloudwalking, vulnerability to fire, feather fall, fog cloud, control winds, DR 10/magic, Breath Weapon DC 30 DMG 16d8 [AVE 72], Frightful Presence DC 30, Sorcerer Level 11th, SR 26, CR 20)
- Old Silver Dragon (AC 38, HP 387, Attack Bonus +40, Fort 23, Ref 17, Will 24, Special Abilities: Alternate form, immune to acid and cold, cloudwalking, vulnerability to fire, feather fall, fog cloud, control winds, DR 15/magic, Breath Weapon DC 31 DMG 18d8 [AVE 81], Frightful Presence DC 32, Sorcerer Level 13th, SR 27, CR 21)
- Tarrasque (AC 35, HP 858, Attack Bonus +57, Fort 38, Ref 29, Will 20, Special Abilities: Augmented critical, frightful presence [Will DC 36], improved grab, rush, swallow whole, carapace, DR 15/epic, immune to fire, immune to poison, immune to disease, immune to energy drain, immune to ability damage, regeneration 40, scent, SR 32, CR 20)
- Titan (AC 38, HP 370, Attack Bonus +37, Fort 26, Ref 13, Will 21, Special Abilities: Oversized-weapon, At will—chain lightning (DC 23), charm monster (DC 21), cure critical wounds (DC 21), fire storm (DC 24), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC 22), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC 22); 3/day—etherealness, word of chaos (DC 22), summon nature’s ally IX; 1/day—gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC 26); good or neutral alignment: At will—daylight, holy smite (DC 21), remove curse (DC 21); 1/day—greater restoration; evil alignment: At will—bestow curse (DC 21), deeper darkness, unholy blight (DC 21); 1/day—crushing hand (DC 26) [Caster level 20th for all spell-like abilities], CR 21)
- Wrym White Dragon (AC 38, HP 445, Attack Bonus +41, Fort 25, Ref 18, Will 20, Special Abilities: Icewalking, immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire, fog cloud, gust of wind, freezing fog, wall of ice, DR 20/magic, Breath Weapon DC 33 DMG 11d6 [AVE 38.5], Frightful Presence DC 29, Sorcerer Level 11th, SR 25, CR 19)
- Great Wrym White Dragon (AC 41, HP 522, Attack Bonus +45, Fort 28, Ref 20, Will 24, Special Abilities: Icewalking, immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire, fog cloud, gust of wind, freezing fog, wall of ice, control weather, DR 20/magic, Breath Weapon DC 36 DMG 12d6 [AVE 42], Frightful Presence DC 32, Sorcerer Level 13th, SR 27, CR 21)
Warriors will need a magic weapon to affect almost any creature on this list. The ACs range from 29 to 40. Even if the fighter is a half-orc who started with a 20 in strength and placed all 5 points into Strength, his total attack bonus is +23. Using feats and tactics, he could improve that by +10. This would mean that he would need anything from -4 to a 7 on his primary attack. Subsequent attacks would be 1 to 12, 6 to 17, and 11 to 22. Of course, he isn’t doing much damage and will need to get past a lot of damage reduction and deal with regeneration in a couple cases. Even those creatures that don’t have any DR or regeneration have hit points that far exceed those of the party.
Casters will need to deal with saves that are as high as +38. Assuming the best he will have is a 25 in his primary stat, the DCs for his spells will be 22. He can get this up a little higher with feats and class abilities, but his opponents will still be making their saves more than half of the time. To even kill the tarrasque you will need a wish spell.
Taking a look at the special abilities of these creatures, making those saving throws will be difficult at best. While rogues probably have the best chance of survival with improved evasion, they still need to deal with DCs that they can fail more than half of the time.
Looking at the attacks from these creatures (I only looked at the primary attack, but secondary attacks aren’t much different), they will hit every time. The creatures have +30 to +57 to hit. A fighter with full-plate and a heavy steel shield will be hit every time. Since he doesn’t have any magical items, fighting defensively and using combat expertise will make hitting the beast almost impossible.
If I gave each creature treasure to use according to its listing in the DMG, they become nearly unstoppable. The dragons will not only have an incredible amount of wealth to boost themselves with, they also have quite a few spells at their disposal.
You will also note that I didn't even get into the feats or skills of any of these creatures. Some, like the dragons, are customizable. This would make even more dangerous to the party.
Every class needs items to survive. They will all need magic items. Thinking that the truenamer is any different is really unrealistic. I can’t think of any class that would be able to defeat any of these creatures without equipment appropriate to their class and level.
In addition, anyone who is against optimizing or min/maxing is being rather pretentious. I highly doubt you’d play a wizard with a 9 Intelligence or a Fighter with a 3 Strength and no armor. You would build a character that has a chance of survival. You’ll choose spells that enhance your caster. You’ll choose gear that is appropriate to your character concept. So you won’t take weapon focus (dagger) and then only wield a greatsword because that would be retarded. You won’t play a rogue in full plate mail. Everyone optimizes and min/maxes to a point. If you aren’t, then you are either lying or just being stupid. There should be role-playing reasons why you are making the choices you are making, but you should be making choices that improve, not weaken your character (this is what optimizing and min/maxing does).
I doubt anyone can show me how to defeat any of these creatures without optimizing their characters in some way or min/maxing.
You require items to do at level 20 what you could do more easily at level 1. The system is broken, and poorly designed, no matter how much you want to spin that it isn’t.
That's D&D, Cap'n Jack. Did you read the post about how useless an itemless fighter is? The Druid and Cleric have enough buffs that they can somewhat go itemless, and the monk as a class can generally be decent without items... but even those classes, WITH the Vow of Poverty feat, don't quite keep up with the Joneses. D&D includes items and magic items as a matter of course. Take them out, and you're playing an extreme variant. The Truenamer needs items just as much as any other class does.
Sure, strip a Truenamer of all items and he is seriously reduced in power. Vow of Poverty isn't optimal with a Truenamer. So what? Wizards and sorcerers aren't optimal with vow of poverty either.
The only thing that is "wrong" with the Truenamer is how useless Personal Truenames are. When you learn the personal truename of someone you should be their master, enslaving them for the rest of their natural lives and owning their soul
Instead you get... +2 to save DCs but increase the required skill check by 2? Unless you intend to specialize in utterances allowing saves, then it's not worth it.
Perhaps a prestige class specializing in actually using the personal truename of enemies to completely and utterly kick their behinds?
Just my 2 coppers,
Need_A_Life
That you can get magic items to help out is irrelevant. That they are cheap is also irrelevant. That they are required cannot be ignored.
Magic weapons and armor are just as "required" for fighters, unless they just LIKE bouncing off of DR. Why should this be different? Whether it's a melee attack or a skill check, it's still the character's meat-and-potatoes stat, so it needs the edge that gear provides to stay competitive, just like a fighter NEEDS a magic weapon to get through DR.
I doubt the DMG would suggest that 20th-level PCs have 760,000gp worth of unnecessary trinkets. Gear is designed to be integral to a character's effectiveness. It is required by virtually any character if that character wishes to be on par with the monsters they're facing, whether you're spending that money on a vorpal sword, ruby dust for forcecage, or skill-pumping gear. Unless you're using Vow of Poverty, gear is always assumed to be "required" for a competitive PC.
By comparison, while most Wizards and Sorcerers will pump everything they have into their spellcasting, they don't need to for decent results. A wizard can just as easily pump his gold into much-needed defensive items and backup scrolls, wands and staffs. A True Namer really has to throw everything they have into Truenaming to retain any sort of equal pegging. It becomes less pronounced if you allow custom items (such as the fabled +30 item), but it is still there.
Without help:
-Int 20 (+5)
-23 ranks of Truespeak
-Skill Focus (Truespeak)
For a total of +31 to his checks.
This is the equivalent of a naked fighter with Weapon Focus (Longsword) as a feat. Of course it'll be inadequate! Put some clothes on and get your weapon before you go fight!
Look at truespeech again. Your entire life depends on how many ranks you have in Truespeak. Why do you only have 20 int? Why do you have no items boosting Truepeak whatsoever?
Why are you complaining that this guy isn't good when you're deliberately gimping him?
At 20th level, you should have tons of extra modifiers to Truespeak. Where's your Compentence bonus item? Your Morale bonus item? Your Luck bonus item?
Realistically, your Truenamer should have
-23 ranks of Truespeak
-Int 30 (20 Base + 4 Inherent +6 Enhancement) (+10)
-Skill Focus (Truespeak) (+2)
-+10 Competence item (Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue)
-+1 Luck item (Stone of Good Luck)
-+2 Morale item (Potion of Good Hope)
-+5 unnamed bonus (Utterance of Universal Aptitude)
For a total of +53 to his checks, and I'm barely trying here. I haven't cracked open a book other than the DMG or the Tome of Magic open. There are plenty of bonuses I'm not using (Insight, Sacred, Alchemical...), and I'm only using standard DMG spells and items. Against a CD 20 encounter, that's a success on a 2 or better, which is quite easy to get. Not only that, but since you can use utterances against things other than your target itself.
I could, for instance use Quicken Speak Stone to Mud (DC45) to turn the ground into ooze, then Reverse a Greater Seek The Sky on a CR 20 Dragon (DC 55), leaving our poor dragon mired up to the neck in mud.
Now, let's look at what we get in return for this skill-point dependency:
- Save DCs scale by level. Every utterance is at max level all the time.
- SR checks are scalable, or able to be eliminated completely. You can make every utterance SR:No for a cheap +5 DC.
- No hard limits to the number of utterances per day.
- Spontanous use of utterances.
All of which are excellent things to have.
So, no. Truenamers aren't weak -at all-.
Because while the Fighter needs a magic weapon and magic armor, he doesn't need a specific weapon or armor. Sure, if he took EWP he'll want the right kind of weapon, but even then he can be flexible on what magic properties it has. For most, it's even less of an issue:
A +3 Flaming Longsword instead a +1 Speed Scimitar? No problem. A +10 to Spellcraft item instead of a +10 to Truenaming item? Useless.
And since a large number of people use weapons, and a smaller but still significant number are rich enough to afford magic ones, it is not unusual to find someone who can sell you a magic weapon in the larger cities, or you could always take one from a defeated foe. Unless truenamers are a significant presence IYC, you'll be hard pressed to find any Truenaming boosting items lying around or for sale. Better hope that there's an Artificer in the party!
In short, the problem is not the cost of skill boosting items (pretty cheap, actually), but rather their limited availability.
Here’s why : it was based on a skill. COMBAT AND SPELLS IN D&D ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE SKILL-BASED.
Given the number of factors that can contribute to an overall skill modifier, and the fact that a character's overall skill modifier does not scale linearly with its level, an exponentially scaling DC is a poor choice to balance this fact.
Here’s what needs to be done: eliminate the truespeak skill. Replace the need for a skill check with a 'truespeaker' level check, DC 10 + target's hitdice (or caster level for magic items). This works exactly the same way as a caster level check, it just uses truenamer and truespeech PrC levels rather than caster levels. Any character using truespeech without levels in these classes uses 1/2 their character level for truespeaker level checks, and a multiclass truespeaker uses eithere their truespeaker levels or 1/2 their character levels, whichever is highest. Truenamers have spellcraft as a class skill, and spellcraft is used to identify spoken utterances in the manner truespeak normally would.
There is no '+10 to truespeech checks' item. AFAIK nothing can improve a character's effective caster level beyond their character level (except for the purposes of overcoming SR) so this mechanic will scale perfectly linear by level.
Truespeaker is a focused class. That's OK! The mechanic is just fine as well as even when you are beating the monster's DC easily you will notice that there are no instant kill spells or ones that do damage equal to your level in one round. This keeps them from overshadowing the other players while still contributing to the group every time.
All classes will suck without their stuff as they get higher in levels. It is how the game is designed. Even monks will be sub par and they maybe do the best. So let's let this argument go, please.
I do agree that knowing a personal truename does not seem to help much as most utterances have no save anyway. I might need to houserule something on that. My thought is that knowing a target's true name lowers the DC of a truespeak check by 1 for every 5 ranks of truespeak you have. I'm not sure on that though.
BTW. I found an artificer spell/infusion last night that is first level and increases any skill check by +1 and +1 more for every two additional caster levels and lasts for 10 minutes per caster level. That's a 20 level caster wand for 15,000 and a +10 bonus for about three and a half hours. Whoopee!
That's D&D, Cap'n Jack. Did you read the post about how useless an itemless fighter is? The Druid and Cleric have enough buffs that they can somewhat go itemless, and the monk as a class can generally be decent without items... but even those classes, WITH the Vow of Poverty feat, don't quite keep up with the Joneses. D&D includes items and magic items as a matter of course. Take them out, and you're playing an extreme variant. The Truenamer needs items just as much as any other class does.
Wrong. A fighter still hits on a 20. A namer doesn’t successfully cast on a 20. The intelligent way to design truename DC's is as they did for the map lexicons. A DC, +X/level of the utterance. This makes easier utterances... drumroll... easier to use. It rids the system of the inconsistent fluff of "more important people are harder to affect", and lets the namer get BETTER at using his weaker abilities as he levels.
The other problem is that skill boosters are cheaper than weapon "plusses". So there’s a thin line between the namer having difficulty hitting his mark, and it never failing. The skill itself needs to accept a VERY limited amount of boosts, or the system falls flat again. The difference between a namer with an item familiar and without is massive. It is yet another problem with a skill based system.
Magic weapons and armor are just as "required" for fighters, unless they just LIKE bouncing off of DR. Why should this be different? Whether it's a melee attack or a skill check, it's still the character's meat-and-potatoes stat, so it needs the edge that gear provides to stay competitive, just like a fighter NEEDS a magic weapon to get through DR.
We arent talking about a fighter needing a weapon to overcome a foe's DR. He had the same problems at level 1. The namer didn’t. It was ridiculously simple to invoke a basic word on himself when he was 1st level. As he goes up in level, he loses the ability to do what he could do. You're comparing apples and oranges.
A better comparison would be the paladin's mount requiring a higher ride check to do the same riding feat as he goes up in level.
The reason why is equally stupid. The universe "notices" powerful entities more? Why is that based on CR again? You have the king of a nation, he's 3rd level. And thus easier to affect than a summoned celestial Lion? WHY? Isn’t he more important? The lion isn’t even REAL. In x rounds, the universe will STOP noticing the stupid thing as it ceases to exist.
If I dump an earthquake in the middle of a field, it’s the same DC. What’s the DC for dropping an earthquake in the middle of some centuries old standing stones of great significance? Oh... the same DC. But I thought the universe paid attention or something...
Wanna shatter a chunk of rock? One DC. Wanna shatter Michaelangelo's David? Same DC.
It’s badly written fluff supporting bad written rules. A better way that solves all problems is to do what the did for the perfected map lexicon. Make each lexicon have a base DC, and have it increase by X amount per level of the utterance. This would make it easier for high level namers to use low level utterances, keep them able to do what they could do at low levels (actually they get better at dropping low level utterances, which makes sense), and removes the contradiction on importance. They could have fixed this, but they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.