Using Total XP to Determine ECL - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Using Total XP to Determine ECL

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
vharuck
Feb 21, 2005 16:14:56 The current way to estimate the power level of a character is by the ECL. I agree with the level system, as it’s the tried-and-true method. What I don’t agree with is how it omits one simple fact that it could easily make up for: experience points (the slang term being XP). Experience points in D&D are a means to an end. If you acquire so much XP, you are allowed to tack on another level. This system is also the standard, and works very well for simplifying the abstract concept of learning.

However, XP is not just used for gaining levels. Certain powerful spells require payment using the caster’s XP. In return, the caster nets something very powerful and usually permanent. Using the spells Wish and Miracle, a caster can ask for a magical item. This item is permanent and usually good. Also purchasable are boosted statistics. XP is also used by item creation feats, being the offset to the reduced price (crafting the object vs. buying the object) and extreme versatility (searching every town for the closest thing to your dream weapon as opposed to just making it). If a DM allows psionics, then Psychic Chirurgery allows fellow psionic manifesters to add powers to one another’s lists. All of these things (except using Wish and Miracle to increase stats) enhance the character’s level by items.

Now, power by items is supposed to be kept in check by the Suggested Character Wealth Chart in the Dungeon Master’s Guide (DMG). If a character is X level, one’s assets should add up to around Y value in gold (usually below the recommended level, as limited-use items such as scrolls and wands would have been used in the past). But there is a way to not only increase the wealth one has, but also increase the gap between levels: XP costs. With the above-mentioned psionic power, let’s assume that there is a pair of psions. One is a level 17 Human Telepath and the other is a level 17 dwarf Kineticist. Both have an ECL of 17. Now, over the course of their adventuring while level 17, the two use the XP they gain to power Psychic Chirurgery, with the telepath giving the kineticist said power. Now the two can burn XP, ending up having up to double their normal limit of powers, granted that neither of them chose a similar power before level 17. They are still level 17, and therefore still have an ECL of 17, but they are undoubtedly MUCH more powerful as now they have what in effect is 31 uses of the feat Expanded Knowledge.

One answer is that this is a situation in which the DM must step in and limit the use of this power. But how should he limit it? Would it be fair to limit it? Should he ban it outright? I personally say that he should not limit it, but instead revise his way of thinking: ECL is NOT only determined by the level of the character, but by other means as well. When calculating a character’s ECL, it should be based not on their class level at all, but instead on the amount of experience points (along with other non-class factors such as templates, racial HD, and LA’s). For example, if a level 17 elf wizard gains 18,000 XP while he is level 17 and spends it all on spells and feats that require XP costs, he still only has the bare minimum of experience required to be level 17. However, if compared to a human wizard who has just reached level 17, the elf wizard who spent XP is obviously much more powerful. Because of this, I will also take into account the XP that the elf wizard spent when calculating his ECL (since he earned a total of 18,000 XP after becoming 17th level, I would say that his ECL is that of an 18th level character).

This method does not require vast amounts of book-keeping. XP costs are usually few and far between, but some players do enjoy spells and feats that require them. Keeping track of the XP a character has earned (i.e. regardless of XP costs) as well as the current XP the character has (i.e. with XP costs taken out) is very simple. I propose this solution in the hopes that it will prevent characters’ power levels from skewing radically (which may happen in the late game) and in response to the existence of the Artificer base class (which a good portion of is based on Item Creation and XP cost spells). None of the spells or feats with an XP cost should be abused to a point where they must be removed in order to maintain balance, and I would rather see them taken into account when balancing also for what they give to the player (items, stats, etc.) as opposed to only what they take away from the character.
#2
dunelord
Feb 27, 2005 19:00:55 I was thinking about the same thing. After all under the right conditions a caster who is behind on XP can come out ahead (in total XP) of someone who had all their XP.
#3
Phrennzy
Apr 09, 2005 0:19:23 That's pretty smart. I knew I was keeping track of the party's average XP for a reason.
#4
zombiegleemax
Apr 12, 2005 20:18:07 I can certainly see your point about the possible abuse that XP costing spells and feats can be subjected to. But I would suggest that your example of the two psions over-exaggerates the problem. Generally it is the minority of characters in any party that will have access to such abilities, so while the casters may abuse spells to stay at 17th level the barbarians and rogues and paladins so forth will be advancing towards 20th and expecting commensurate challenges. These characters, and casters who are more interested in level benefits than spending XP elsewhere, will act as a CR buffer to minimise the impact such behaviour creates.

I would also add that parties of 17th+ level almost always have access to abilities and powers that allow them to far exceed their CR. Many will steamroller any encounter less than their CR+ 2 or 3, and should justly do so given the fact that they have grown into such mighty figures. Challenging encounters at this level are less a case of numerical superiority and more due to factors that CR cannot always accurately represent such as time pressure or hazardous environments or fiendish puzzles or moral dilemmas, so you shouldn't be too worried about casters exceeding their expected power level (This should be a given over level 10 anyway and is the righful pay off for having to skulk behind brawny types for the first 10 levels).

If you are looking to put limit on this sort of behaviour then don't let them know their XP totals, there's no reason for them to know IC so don't tell 'em. They'll get a nasty surprise when the go down a level creating an item and lose the ability to create it in the process, thus failing their creation. Or you could add on a little extra to the XP cost of these abilities each time they use them, 5-10% say, that should allow them the benefit of their hard earned ability while helping to prevent them abusing it too badly. In my view a Wish should not be something one casts every Sunday afternoon while pottering around in the garden shed. That sort of bending reality is bad, reality might decide to stay bendy...
#5
zombiegleemax
Apr 12, 2005 21:30:43 You raise some excellent points; XP can be spent in ways that increase power and prevent leveling.

BUT

There are also plenty of ways to spend XP that do NOT increase power. Easy example: using Wish to cast Resurrection. The caster is out 5,000 XP and has NOTHING to show for it. Ouch! That is a good introduction to LOST levels, from level drain or resurrection. Oops.

So, while your points are certainly valid, I think your proposed solution creates at least nearly as many (and possibly more) problems than it solves. Not to mention the problems with non-XP related wealth. A smart character may well catch a DM error or even accidentally use an unexpected exploit (I've actually seen it happen). Suddenly, they have greatly more wealth than they should, and their total earned XP has not changed. And there's the converse to that as well, where the character has far too little wealth for level.

All of that to say, the system as it exists now is just a guide. Making a system that properly takes everything into account would be FAR more work than it's worth. But if you happen to come up with one, I'd sure appreciate it if you'd share! :D
#6
darien_cr
Apr 13, 2005 12:43:57 You know, I miss something from AD&D. Those kind of things didn't use to take XP, but age, instead. Every time a wizard cast wish he became older (that's why wizards are old), but now the trend is that wizards are young because those spells don't make you older anymore. I was thinking of applying both, XP and age costs, related somehow. Like, every time you lose XP, you become X years older, depending on the amount of XP lost. This makes more logical elves being wizards, because they live more.
#7
zombiegleemax
Apr 14, 2005 8:30:04 But what about situations where a caster uses an ability that costs XP but does not enhance his own power? Using Wish to bring an NPC back to life. Making potions of healing and giving (not selling) them to others. Is that character any more powerful than another who has been awarded the same amount of total XP but has not spent them in this manner and is a level (or more) higher?
#8
zombiegleemax
Apr 14, 2005 11:44:17 My rebuttal: As long as you're not talking about considering a character a higher level than what he truly is for purposes of 'to next level' experience, then this is a perfectly fine idea. Just remember, that power levels and spells were tested by people far more patient and resourceful than us, and the ability to use said XP-'burning' spells are factored into each character's level/ECL, challenge rating, and the challenge rating of the monsters at that same CR, and the abilities and resources of the monsters at that same CR. As a rule, I usually put a time limit or 'recharge time' on using XP spells, to prevent them from being used back to back, like building up 50,000 spare XP and spending a week casting wishes. Remember that your characters are investing part of their spirit, their soul into these spells, not just their knowledge. It's why energy drain attacks drain levels. Using this total XP ECL for the sake of determining the CR of encounters you can throw against them is one thing, and I'd even go so far as to say a character with total XP more than two levels above actual XP should suffer a penalty (calculating XP gained from an encounter as if he were the higher level), remember that that character will only have the XP you give to him.

Also, how do you book keep if the character loses a level from death/level drain? It resets you to halfway between the new level and the next level up. And what about a further miracle by another character to regain the lost experience (roundabout way of doing things, but it works)? It is definitely warranted to remember here that all factors are considered when one levels up, and the ability to create items is offset by the reduction in advancement. The ability to use Psychic Surgery (sorry, I love the 2nd ed version of that power's name, Chirurgery is too many unnecessary letters for the same word), Wish, or Miracle to raise stats, expand powers, or the like, is factored into the level of the power, and the cost involved. If you make these things too easy to come by, then you will suffer as a DM, because they *are* powerful abilities. However, don't make it a quest every time someone casts Wish just because you're afraid of abuse. There's definitely something wrong if someone has the spare XP to throw around and raise abilities, and still be at the same XP level as the group, unless you have one character who's been to every session since the beginning, and others which often miss sessions, in which case, that character is reaping the rewards of attendance and attention.

That went way more ranty than I intended. I digress. Yes, a level 17 with the total XP of a level 18 could very well be the same power level as the level 18. But, allowing him to advance as a level 17 isn't giving him an unfair advantage. It's treating him the same as everyone else. Leaving him as a level 18 instead of making him pay the XP is an unfair advantage. And treating him like a level 18 without giving him the perks of one is an unfair disadvantage, in most situations.
#9
dunelord
Apr 26, 2005 6:46:17 I think the real issues comes from the fact that the XP system is set up to catch up lower level PCs with a higher level characters they adventure with this. This means that lower level PCs get higher XP awards which means if you are careful about when spend XP you can end up AHEAD of the PC who never spent the XP.
#10
dunelord
May 01, 2005 6:29:50
That went way more ranty than I intended. I digress. Yes, a level 17 with the total XP of a level 18 could very well be the same power level as the level 18. But, allowing him to advance as a level 17 isn't giving him an unfair advantage. It's treating him the same as everyone else. Leaving him as a level 18 instead of making him pay the XP is an unfair advantage. And treating him like a level 18 without giving him the perks of one is an unfair disadvantage, in most situations.

If someone loses XP for something like dying then, yeah, I can see why that shouldn't be counted against them. I don't see your logic with the rest of this. If someone uses XP to raise their power level to that of someone a level or two higher why shouldn't they be treated as that level for purposes of XP? If you have a +8 intelligence from your race you have a +1LA why wouldn't you from magic? I understand you give up gold and XP BUT if you get the XP back from the fact you have lower level what was really lost? A feat I guess but to me it seems this XP difference should at the VERY least be something more then "Well I am behind this level, no big deal I'll catch up."
#11
vharuck
May 09, 2005 2:54:38 This wasn't meant to gauge how much experience the table says to give out (which DMs can easily and rightfully manipulate), but instead by aiding the DM in creating a decent and fun challenge. Throwing things at a level 15 solo wizard who spent 30k of experience (I don't know, maybe he really likes to craft stuff), the DM will find his monsters are grossly unchallenging and therefore neither fun for the player or the DM.

This is a simple system used to accurately gauge the power level of the party so that the game can remain challenging and fun.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 vharuck Feb 21, 2005 16:14:56	The current way to estimate the power level of a character is by the ECL. I agree with the level system, as it’s the tried-and-true method. What I don’t agree with is how it omits one simple fact that it could easily make up for: experience points (the slang term being XP). Experience points in D&D are a means to an end. If you acquire so much XP, you are allowed to tack on another level. This system is also the standard, and works very well for simplifying the abstract concept of learning. However, XP is not just used for gaining levels. Certain powerful spells require payment using the caster’s XP. In return, the caster nets something very powerful and usually permanent. Using the spells Wish and Miracle, a caster can ask for a magical item. This item is permanent and usually good. Also purchasable are boosted statistics. XP is also used by item creation feats, being the offset to the reduced price (crafting the object vs. buying the object) and extreme versatility (searching every town for the closest thing to your dream weapon as opposed to just making it). If a DM allows psionics, then Psychic Chirurgery allows fellow psionic manifesters to add powers to one another’s lists. All of these things (except using Wish and Miracle to increase stats) enhance the character’s level by items. Now, power by items is supposed to be kept in check by the Suggested Character Wealth Chart in the Dungeon Master’s Guide (DMG). If a character is X level, one’s assets should add up to around Y value in gold (usually below the recommended level, as limited-use items such as scrolls and wands would have been used in the past). But there is a way to not only increase the wealth one has, but also increase the gap between levels: XP costs. With the above-mentioned psionic power, let’s assume that there is a pair of psions. One is a level 17 Human Telepath and the other is a level 17 dwarf Kineticist. Both have an ECL of 17. Now, over the course of their adventuring while level 17, the two use the XP they gain to power Psychic Chirurgery, with the telepath giving the kineticist said power. Now the two can burn XP, ending up having up to double their normal limit of powers, granted that neither of them chose a similar power before level 17. They are still level 17, and therefore still have an ECL of 17, but they are undoubtedly MUCH more powerful as now they have what in effect is 31 uses of the feat Expanded Knowledge. One answer is that this is a situation in which the DM must step in and limit the use of this power. But how should he limit it? Would it be fair to limit it? Should he ban it outright? I personally say that he should not limit it, but instead revise his way of thinking: ECL is NOT only determined by the level of the character, but by other means as well. When calculating a character’s ECL, it should be based not on their class level at all, but instead on the amount of experience points (along with other non-class factors such as templates, racial HD, and LA’s). For example, if a level 17 elf wizard gains 18,000 XP while he is level 17 and spends it all on spells and feats that require XP costs, he still only has the bare minimum of experience required to be level 17. However, if compared to a human wizard who has just reached level 17, the elf wizard who spent XP is obviously much more powerful. Because of this, I will also take into account the XP that the elf wizard spent when calculating his ECL (since he earned a total of 18,000 XP after becoming 17th level, I would say that his ECL is that of an 18th level character). This method does not require vast amounts of book-keeping. XP costs are usually few and far between, but some players do enjoy spells and feats that require them. Keeping track of the XP a character has earned (i.e. regardless of XP costs) as well as the current XP the character has (i.e. with XP costs taken out) is very simple. I propose this solution in the hopes that it will prevent characters’ power levels from skewing radically (which may happen in the late game) and in response to the existence of the Artificer base class (which a good portion of is based on Item Creation and XP cost spells). None of the spells or feats with an XP cost should be abused to a point where they must be removed in order to maintain balance, and I would rather see them taken into account when balancing also for what they give to the player (items, stats, etc.) as opposed to only what they take away from the character.
#2 dunelord Feb 27, 2005 19:00:55	I was thinking about the same thing. After all under the right conditions a caster who is behind on XP can come out ahead (in total XP) of someone who had all their XP.
#3 Phrennzy Apr 09, 2005 0:19:23	That's pretty smart. I knew I was keeping track of the party's average XP for a reason.
#4 zombiegleemax Apr 12, 2005 20:18:07	I can certainly see your point about the possible abuse that XP costing spells and feats can be subjected to. But I would suggest that your example of the two psions over-exaggerates the problem. Generally it is the minority of characters in any party that will have access to such abilities, so while the casters may abuse spells to stay at 17th level the barbarians and rogues and paladins so forth will be advancing towards 20th and expecting commensurate challenges. These characters, and casters who are more interested in level benefits than spending XP elsewhere, will act as a CR buffer to minimise the impact such behaviour creates. I would also add that parties of 17th+ level almost always have access to abilities and powers that allow them to far exceed their CR. Many will steamroller any encounter less than their CR+ 2 or 3, and should justly do so given the fact that they have grown into such mighty figures. Challenging encounters at this level are less a case of numerical superiority and more due to factors that CR cannot always accurately represent such as time pressure or hazardous environments or fiendish puzzles or moral dilemmas, so you shouldn't be too worried about casters exceeding their expected power level (This should be a given over level 10 anyway and is the righful pay off for having to skulk behind brawny types for the first 10 levels). If you are looking to put limit on this sort of behaviour then don't let them know their XP totals, there's no reason for them to know IC so don't tell 'em. They'll get a nasty surprise when the go down a level creating an item and lose the ability to create it in the process, thus failing their creation. Or you could add on a little extra to the XP cost of these abilities each time they use them, 5-10% say, that should allow them the benefit of their hard earned ability while helping to prevent them abusing it too badly. In my view a Wish should not be something one casts every Sunday afternoon while pottering around in the garden shed. That sort of bending reality is bad, reality might decide to stay bendy...
#5 zombiegleemax Apr 12, 2005 21:30:43	You raise some excellent points; XP can be spent in ways that increase power and prevent leveling. BUT There are also plenty of ways to spend XP that do NOT increase power. Easy example: using Wish to cast Resurrection. The caster is out 5,000 XP and has NOTHING to show for it. Ouch! That is a good introduction to LOST levels, from level drain or resurrection. Oops. So, while your points are certainly valid, I think your proposed solution creates at least nearly as many (and possibly more) problems than it solves. Not to mention the problems with non-XP related wealth. A smart character may well catch a DM error or even accidentally use an unexpected exploit (I've actually seen it happen). Suddenly, they have greatly more wealth than they should, and their total earned XP has not changed. And there's the converse to that as well, where the character has far too little wealth for level. All of that to say, the system as it exists now is just a guide. Making a system that properly takes everything into account would be FAR more work than it's worth. But if you happen to come up with one, I'd sure appreciate it if you'd share! :D
#6 darien_cr Apr 13, 2005 12:43:57	You know, I miss something from AD&D. Those kind of things didn't use to take XP, but age, instead. Every time a wizard cast wish he became older (that's why wizards are old), but now the trend is that wizards are young because those spells don't make you older anymore. I was thinking of applying both, XP and age costs, related somehow. Like, every time you lose XP, you become X years older, depending on the amount of XP lost. This makes more logical elves being wizards, because they live more.
#7 zombiegleemax Apr 14, 2005 8:30:04	But what about situations where a caster uses an ability that costs XP but does not enhance his own power? Using Wish to bring an NPC back to life. Making potions of healing and giving (not selling) them to others. Is that character any more powerful than another who has been awarded the same amount of total XP but has not spent them in this manner and is a level (or more) higher?
#8 zombiegleemax Apr 14, 2005 11:44:17	My rebuttal: As long as you're not talking about considering a character a higher level than what he truly is for purposes of 'to next level' experience, then this is a perfectly fine idea. Just remember, that power levels and spells were tested by people far more patient and resourceful than us, and the ability to use said XP-'burning' spells are factored into each character's level/ECL, challenge rating, and the challenge rating of the monsters at that same CR, and the abilities and resources of the monsters at that same CR. As a rule, I usually put a time limit or 'recharge time' on using XP spells, to prevent them from being used back to back, like building up 50,000 spare XP and spending a week casting wishes. Remember that your characters are investing part of their spirit, their soul into these spells, not just their knowledge. It's why energy drain attacks drain levels. Using this total XP ECL for the sake of determining the CR of encounters you can throw against them is one thing, and I'd even go so far as to say a character with total XP more than two levels above actual XP should suffer a penalty (calculating XP gained from an encounter as if he were the higher level), remember that that character will only have the XP you give to him. Also, how do you book keep if the character loses a level from death/level drain? It resets you to halfway between the new level and the next level up. And what about a further miracle by another character to regain the lost experience (roundabout way of doing things, but it works)? It is definitely warranted to remember here that all factors are considered when one levels up, and the ability to create items is offset by the reduction in advancement. The ability to use Psychic Surgery (sorry, I love the 2nd ed version of that power's name, Chirurgery is too many unnecessary letters for the same word), Wish, or Miracle to raise stats, expand powers, or the like, is factored into the level of the power, and the cost involved. If you make these things too easy to come by, then you will suffer as a DM, because they are powerful abilities. However, don't make it a quest every time someone casts Wish just because you're afraid of abuse. There's definitely something wrong if someone has the spare XP to throw around and raise abilities, and still be at the same XP level as the group, unless you have one character who's been to every session since the beginning, and others which often miss sessions, in which case, that character is reaping the rewards of attendance and attention. That went way more ranty than I intended. I digress. Yes, a level 17 with the total XP of a level 18 could very well be the same power level as the level 18. But, allowing him to advance as a level 17 isn't giving him an unfair advantage. It's treating him the same as everyone else. Leaving him as a level 18 instead of making him pay the XP is an unfair advantage. And treating him like a level 18 without giving him the perks of one is an unfair disadvantage, in most situations.
#9 dunelord Apr 26, 2005 6:46:17	I think the real issues comes from the fact that the XP system is set up to catch up lower level PCs with a higher level characters they adventure with this. This means that lower level PCs get higher XP awards which means if you are careful about when spend XP you can end up AHEAD of the PC who never spent the XP.
#10 dunelord May 01, 2005 6:29:50	That went way more ranty than I intended. I digress. Yes, a level 17 with the total XP of a level 18 could very well be the same power level as the level 18. But, allowing him to advance as a level 17 isn't giving him an unfair advantage. It's treating him the same as everyone else. Leaving him as a level 18 instead of making him pay the XP is an unfair advantage. And treating him like a level 18 without giving him the perks of one is an unfair disadvantage, in most situations. If someone loses XP for something like dying then, yeah, I can see why that shouldn't be counted against them. I don't see your logic with the rest of this. If someone uses XP to raise their power level to that of someone a level or two higher why shouldn't they be treated as that level for purposes of XP? If you have a +8 intelligence from your race you have a +1LA why wouldn't you from magic? I understand you give up gold and XP BUT if you get the XP back from the fact you have lower level what was really lost? A feat I guess but to me it seems this XP difference should at the VERY least be something more then "Well I am behind this level, no big deal I'll catch up."
#11 vharuck May 09, 2005 2:54:38	This wasn't meant to gauge how much experience the table says to give out (which DMs can easily and rightfully manipulate), but instead by aiding the DM in creating a decent and fun challenge. Throwing things at a level 15 solo wizard who spent 30k of experience (I don't know, maybe he really likes to craft stuff), the DM will find his monsters are grossly unchallenging and therefore neither fun for the player or the DM. This is a simple system used to accurately gauge the power level of the party so that the game can remain challenging and fun.