Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Apr 13, 2005 23:50:39	Fighting Big Battles on a Battlefield You (as the DM) can “fight” the battles on your own time, unless your party is a strike team trying to kill the general that is engaging in the current battle. If not, since your party has no part in a certain part of the war, you can inform your party what has happened during their absence and what has changed and who is winning the war (or battle) so far. Be sure to keep a special map that shows troop positions, sites of battles and little skirmishes. Attacking/Defending If one division advances towards another division all that you have to do is roll an Attack roll (D20) for the advancing division and an opposing Attack roll for the defenders. (It’s kind of like grappling). Who ever has the higher roll, wins the skirmish. At this time roll a D20 to see how many soldiers died on the side that lost and a D10 for how many were lost on the winning side. If any of the sides are reduced to 0 then that side takes the part that they won. If there are any soldiers remaining, it is up to the DM whether they will run or put up a gallant fight in which their roll is decreased by 5+anyother thing that would originally use for a battle. Attack Matrixes If a foot division (foot soldiers) is advancing on a division of mounted soldiers, the Attack roll for the foot soldiers is decreased by 4, due to the mounted soldier’s natural defense for being above the footed soldiers. On the flip side if a division of mounted soldiers attack a division of foot soldiers, the mounted soldiers gain a +4 on their attack roll, while the foot soldiers gain a +1 on their opposing attack roll. Because they are lower than the mounted troops and are able to counter attack their opponents. Spellcasters Spellcasters that cast spells that harm the enemy would go like this: Say a group of 10 spellcasters cast 1 magic missile on each of the enemies divisions. The spells have a 50% chance of hitting the division due to the enemy seeing the missile coming towards them. If the spell hits, it will wipe out half of the division. Clerics Clerics are the medics, so they usually go out after a wave and heal the wounded or after a successful attack, come and heal the wounded. Although individual stats on all the soldiers and generals are not kept, you should know that after any battle more than a few are mortally wounded, a bit more are badly wounded, few are only scrapped and bleeding a little and very little, if no one, suffered no injuries. Exotic Mounts If mounted units are not mounted on horses but on other, more deadly, animal, the mounted troops gain a +1 on their attack roll. If the animal has a breath weapon, it is up to the DM whether the rider will command the animal to use its weapon or not. Ariel Combat If the combatant is attacking troops on the ground, the attacker (in the air) gets a +4 on their roll, while the soldiers on the ground get a +3 on their attack roll due to them seeing the flyer before hand. Soldiers that are on the ground cannot attack Ariel soldiers unless they have bows, crossbows, or are spellcasters.
#2 draco_strang Apr 15, 2005 16:06:11	Your system seems to be a bit contrived. Why not use opposing rolls for the leaders, or just percentile rolls? Oh, and how is the magic missile only going to hit 50% of the time? If you can see your target and they've no special defenses, it automatically hits. You'd do well to take a second look at your system, good sir.
#3 gilean_dup Apr 24, 2005 10:51:57	Attacking/Defending If one division advances towards another division all that you have to do is roll an Attack roll (D20) for the advancing division and an opposing Attack roll for the defenders. (It’s kind of like grappling). Who ever has the higher roll, wins the skirmish. At this time roll a D20 to see how many soldiers died on the side that lost and a D10 for how many were lost on the winning side. If any of the sides are reduced to 0 then that side takes the part that they won. If there are any soldiers remaining, it is up to the DM whether they will run or put up a gallant fight in which their roll is decreased by 5+anyother thing that would originally use for a battle. So, soldiers in full plate are equally dangerous compared those in no armor? Damage has no meaning? Attack Matrixes If a foot division (foot soldiers) is advancing on a division of mounted soldiers, the Attack roll for the foot soldiers is decreased by 4, due to the mounted soldier’s natural defense for being above the footed soldiers. On the flip side if a division of mounted soldiers attack a division of foot soldiers, the mounted soldiers gain a +4 on their attack roll, while the foot soldiers gain a +1 on their opposing attack roll. Because they are lower than the mounted troops and are able to counter attack their opponents. Why give bonuses to mounted soldiers? Rules already give them +1 attack (for higher ground) and mounted combat tree if they know what they are doing. Also, under your system, giving boni to both sides of combat is quite pointless. Spellcasters Spellcasters that cast spells that harm the enemy would go like this: Say a group of 10 spellcasters cast 1 magic missile on each of the enemies divisions. The spells have a 50% chance of hitting the division due to the enemy seeing the missile coming towards them. If the spell hits, it will wipe out half of the division. Magic missile hits always. Check the rules. Also, far too much abstraction. Ariel Combat If the combatant is attacking troops on the ground, the attacker (in the air) gets a +4 on their roll, while the soldiers on the ground get a +3 on their attack roll due to them seeing the flyer before hand. Soldiers that are on the ground cannot attack Ariel soldiers unless they have bows, crossbows, or are spellcasters. Aerial is the word to use. Creatures attacked by flying creatures gain +3 to attack because they see opponents before the attack? What about battles on plains? Does everyone gain +3 attack for seeing the opponent? This is far too simplified and just not worth it.
#4 phantom_lord_02 May 02, 2005 20:12:19	Try this one. I've used it in the past, and it seems to work alright. It's a bit more complex, but more worth the effort. Then again, before I post it, I must say that even the simplest of grand battles is very time consuming and tedious, for both players and DMs. I would really suggest having the PCs go against small groups, with reinforcements every so often, and a couple unique/villain types thrown in for good measure; the battle goes according to how they fare. If they survive unscathed, it was a rout; if they barely survive, their army is nearly decimated, but the few remaining enemies fled. It's much easier, and much more exciting. Mass Combat system. By Joe Public (Gastaban). No rights reserved This is based on Mongoose Publishing's Open Mass Combat System, which is published in the Quintessential Fighter. You should also get this book to help fill any gaps that I miss. Feel free to adjust this as you feel it's necessary. Quick Definitions: Unit - A self-contained group of individual creatures. Individual - One member of a unit. Units: All units need to be the same type of creature. If they're different types, this system won't work. Unit Roster: These are the stats for a unit. Race, Class, Hit Dice Unit Size Unit Hit points Initiative Attacks Damage AC Ability Scores Saves Feats Race, Class & Hit Dice: Self explanatory. Unit Size: How many members are in a unit. Unit Hit Points: multiply the average hp (as listed in the monster manual) by the Unit Size. If you don't know the average hp (like, if they're not monsters), then just roll up hp for one of the individuals and multiply that by the unit size. Initiative: Same as individual in unit. Attacks, Damage: Same as individual in unit. AC: Same Ability Scores: Same Saves: Same Feats: Same Unit Combat: Many of these rules are the same as if 2 individuals were fighting each other. Rounds: Same Initiative: Before the first round of unit combat begins, each unit involved makes an initiative check. If the army's general or the unit's leader has the Leadership feat, the unit gets a +2 competence bonus to initiative. Attack Roll: To score a hit that deals damage, a unit must roll the target's armor class or better. melee and range attack rolls are done normally. Damage: Any damage done is done to the entire unit. To calculate damage, follow the instructions below. Melee attack: For every space where a unit is touching the other unit, those individuals in those spaces are able to do the damage. For example, if you have 4 guys in each space, and 2 of your unit's spaces are touching the other unit, then 8 guys are doing damage. So you'd multiply damage done by 8. Range attack: Multiply damage by the attacker's unit size. Unit Hit Points: When unit hit points reaches zero then the unit is wiped out. Attack Options: Charge: A unit not engaged in melee combat may charge any enemy with this option. They get +2 to attack roll, but -2 to AC. when a unit charges, they become mingled with the unit they charged (more on this in the miniatures section.). A unit cannot charge another unit if where is an obstacle blocking any part of the unit. Attack: Either melee or ranged attack. If a unit can make more than one attack, it can do that with this option. Withdraw: If involved in melee combat, a unit may attempt to withdraw. When a unit withdraws, the unit they're in melee with gets an Attack of Opportunity against the unit. A unit cannot "double move" out to avoid an Attack of Opportunity. Movement: Units move as if they were one category slower than normal. This is to simulate that the units are keeping their ranks intact. Example: 30 ft would move 20 ft. 20 ft would move 15 ft. 15 ft would move 10 ft. Wheeling: wheeling a unit means to rotate the way they're facing. Wheeling a unit 45 degrees is half a move action, so the unit can still move half their distance in the direction they're facing. Wheeling a unit 90 degrees takes a movement action. Wheeling a unit between 90 and 180 degrees takes a full round action. Attacks of Opportunity: Attacks of opportunity are only used in unit combat when one unit attempts to withdraw from melee combat with another. Individuals who cast spells within a unit must be dealt with on an individual basis according to the core rules. Other Considerations: any special abilities (such as barbarian rage) are used as a whole by the unit. if any individual in a unit uses a special ability, he is no longer considered part of the group and should be dealt with according to the "individual vs. unit" rules. Feats: Some feats are not used in mass combat. such as sunder etc, as these represent individual abilities, and don't make sense on a large scale basis (all of the units weapons break? umm no) . Feats such as toughness however, are still used. Here's a list of feats allowed in mass combat. Everyone (or at least 90% or more) in the unit must have the feat in order for the unit to use it. Ambidexterity Blind-Fight Ear Shot Endurance Great Fortitude Improved 2 weapon fighting Improved unarmed Strike (if the units decide to punch each other. which i discourage) Iron Will Lightning Reflexes Mounted Archery Point Blank Shot Rapid Shot Ride-By Attack Run Spirited Charge Toughness Two-weapon fighting Weapon Focus Weapon Specialization Individual VS. Unit Combat: Sometimes individuals will attack or be attacked by a unit. Such as a PC wanting to confront a unit, or an individual uses a special ability that transcends him from the ranks of the unit (like an individual polymorphs into a dragon. He is no longer part of that unit.) Individuals in Unit combat will always be considered surrounded by the enemy, unless he can stop that somehow (wall of force for example). Otherwise, the maximum number of enemies will be around the individual at all times, for example, if a medium sized creature is fighting a unit of medium sized creatures, all with 5ft. by 5ft. face, than 8 enemies can attack the individual per round as per the core rules. All attacks on this individual are considered flanking and receive a +2 bonus to attack rolls. If the individual is considered too powerful for any one individual in the unit he's confronting, such as a high-leveled PC charging a unit of level 1 warriors, than the unit will use the Aid Another option as described in the Player's Handbook. If the Aid Another option doesn't work, the unit will attempt to grapple and pin the PC, as they consider the PC just too powerful for conventional attacks. Miniatures: The use of miniatures is essential if you want to use this system. I'm sure you could just cut pieces of paper, but you'll need some sort of visual representation. Graph Size: Each graph square equals 20 ft. sq. you can change this, but you'll have to alter other factors to compensate as this system considers each graph square to equal 20 ft. sq. Unit space: This is how much space a unit takes up. Each miniature represents a certain number of individuals based on the face of each individual. Here's a table of how many individuals fit in each square based on the face of an individual. Face of Individual # in Square 2 1/2 x 2 1/2 64 5x5 16 5x10 8 10x10 4 10x20 2 20x20 1 Any excess men will be represented by another miniature. For example, a unit of 40 human warriors (face: 5x5) will be represented by 3 miniatures. (2 for the 32 men. and another to represent the 8 left over.) Mingling: When a unit charges another, the front row of miniatures will mingle with the other, thus sharing a space. This represents that the units are clashing. This means that men in the backrow may be adjacent to the enemy unit, and will add to the damage. This works both ways, since more of the enemy's unit is touching more of yours. Example: (the "&" represents unit-1 miniatures. The "$" represents unit-2 miniatures. the "X" represents mingled parts of a unit.) &&&& &XXX$$ $$$$$ In this diagram, all but the 2 $'s on the right of unit-2 can deal damage to the other unit. Individual death: As individuals in a unit get killed, the miniatures must be removed to compensate the size. Units automatically reform when their individuals are killed. Magic in Mass Combat: Most spells are used exactly as they do in the core rules. ie: a magic missile that does 5 damage, will do 5 damage to the unit. Area of Effect Spells: Spells that cover a range of individuals within a unit, do a ton of damage to the unit. Damage done cannot exceed the number of hp within the area of effect. For example: a flame strike that does 30 damage is cast on a unit of human warriors with 10 hp each. if the flame strike only affects 5 of the individuals, then the hp damage the spell does is 50 hp (it killed all 5 warriors only. so the unit takes 50 hp. 5x10=50) To determine how many individuals are affected, first, draw out the spell area of effect as a diamond shape on the graph paper (diamond shape is used for simplicity as circles are hard to draw. if you got a compass the use that), and count how many miniatures are within the affected area. (A lot of the spell will hit nothing as those squares won't be occupied). if part of the area of effect only affects half of the miniature, then count that miniature as half affected. Now take the number of miniatures affected, and multiply that by the number of individuals represented by each miniature. Example: a fireball with a 40 foot diameter (20 ft radius), is cast on a huge unit of human warriors (face: 5x5). It is able to hit 2 miniatures (as the area of effect affects half of 4 miniatures.). 15 5x5 warriors can is represented by 1 miniature. So multiply 16 by 2 (number of miniatures affect) to get 32. That's the number of men affected by the fireball. Spells that cause affects other than damage (such as bless or bane) only provide their bonus or penalty to a unit if the majority (50% or more) can be affected. Saving Throws: All saving throws are made by the unit as a whole. The End of the Mass Combat: Not all individuals in a unit die. Some run away, and some are simply knocked unconscious or disabled one way or the other. To determine surviving combatants: Roll percentage dice and divide the roll in half. If there's healers, then add 1% per level of healer. 2% for clerics. Take this percentage and multiply it by the starting Unit Size. This is the number of survivors. For the losers of combat. Do the same thing, however, the victors can decide if they want to finish those survivors off. For more information, get Mongoose's Quintessential Fighter. It has rules on Morale and Siege Engines. Sorry for the length.
#5 zombiegleemax May 03, 2005 19:22:59	I think this system has potential. Hope you don't mind if I submit a few suggestions. Attacking/Defending If one division advances towards another division all that you have to do is roll an Attack roll (D20) for the advancing division and an opposing Attack roll for the defenders. (It’s kind of like grappling). Who ever has the higher roll, wins the skirmish. At this time roll a D20 to see how many soldiers died on the side that lost and a D10 for how many were lost on the winning side. Right about here I'd like suggest the following. Consider that instead of the D20 and D10 results determining how many soldiers die let those results determine the amount of units that die in proportion to ECL starting at the weakest units first. Thus if the loser rolls an 18 and his weakest units are of ECL 3 then 6 of his units die. In this way we must rely on the albeit false assumption that every class, creature and so forth is equal providing they have the same ECL (which also takes gear into consideration). I wouldn't introduce attack roll bonuses or penalties based on the types of units facing each other, but rather base them on variables such as the use of flanking, relative army sizes and so forth. This should go down well with players intending to build their own armies as long as they only need to pay their units in proportion to ECL and not much else. As to the issue of armies in vastly different size categories clashing against one another you could attempt to calculate the ECL of each army according to the rules for determining encounter ECLs in the DMG. Perhaps the difference in ECLs could be applied as a bonus to attack rolls for the larger army or you could take the ECL of the Larger army divide it by the ECL of the lesser army then add to that number one fifth of the difference between the two (or anything equally simple or gratuitously complex :D).
#6 zombiegleemax May 03, 2005 21:45:28	Sometimes warfare is a bit more tactical. The Greeks used to line up a bunch of soldier with 15 foot spears. With all the men side by side they'd initiate a forward push. However if they were flanked or in close quarters they'd drop like flies, which is how the Greeks lost to the Romans. Basically armor, weapons, strategy, magic arsenal, mounts, and race should all be taken into account. You won't expect to see an army of kobolds losing on home territory. Simply because they have well placed traps and good arcane arsenal. How do you take into account fireballs, dispel magic, and the like? What if the Kobolds convinced a dragon to reside amongst them for times like these? Far more needs to be taken into account.
#7 kevtar May 04, 2005 6:56:03	There's a nice little piece of freeware out on the 'Net called Mass Combat that does a nice job. However, it does take a little bit of time to learn how to use the software. I've fiddled-with-it, but haven't gotten it down pat yet.
#8 zombiegleemax May 04, 2005 16:47:56	I concur, your system needs work. I see that this is part 1. Perhaps some of these things are addressed in the latter parts. Your basic idea of grouping the armies into groups. However I think that you went a little to far by making attacks like a grapple check. There already exists a good system for attacking. It works fine for single people. There is no reason that it can't be extrapolated out to large groups. There are going to be problems that need to be resolved but I think that using the normal combat system as a starting point, large scale combat D&D style should be creatable.
#9 zombiegleemax May 04, 2005 17:50:40	If its got to a huge war and you haven't already determined the winner, your players are pretty out of control. You don't take AC into consideration anywhere, nor the amount of HP each person has. An easy way to deal with large (but not gigantic) encounters is to use the "unit" template. Essentially it combines 20 creatures into 1, with the same AC, 20 times the HP, 20 times the attacks etc. remove one every time 1/20th of the wholes HP is lost. However I have not playtested this method, apart from in one battle on a ship which was disrupted by a druid casting repel wood in the middle of the wooden boat.
#10 lord_gwydion May 05, 2005 1:28:52	Spellcasters Spellcasters that cast spells that harm the enemy would go like this: Say a group of 10 spellcasters cast 1 magic missile on each of the enemies divisions. The spells have a 50% chance of hitting the division due to the enemy seeing the missile coming towards them. If the spell hits, it will wipe out half of the division. Could you explain this a little more? Aside from the 50% miss chance on a spell that never misses (as others have already pointed out), according to this rule, or at least your example: 10 L1 Wizards are part of an army of 100 men. They are fighting an army of 200 men. The 10 Wizards each cast magic missile, for a total of 10 missiles that do 1d4+1 damage at the 200 enemies. Somehow, those 10 missiles that aren't even guaranteed to kill all of the 10 enemy soldiers they hit, kill half of the enemy force? 100 men down from 10 magic missiles? That's pretty ludicrous. Increase the enemy army to 1000 men, or 50,000. Suddenly, 10 first level spells are killing hundreds or thousands of men? I don't think so. I think the first idea you suggest (have the DM decide which force wins rather than playing it out) is the best idea. If the players want to be generals, have them make appropriate skill checks to organize and inspire their troops (Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate?), another to plan their tactics (Profession: General? Knowledge: History?), and then use these rolls to determine modifiers to the opposed "army" roll.
#11 the_one_true_shea_dup May 05, 2005 10:52:46	I have a pointed and a round question: What are the modifiers to be applied to the attack roll made by the division? Are the aerial attack bonuses applied to the division rolls? Attack matrixes too? The call on the consequences of magic in combat, I simply disagree with on a number of levels. Rounded: war II ? I'm curious where this going, never give up patous!
#12 zombiegleemax May 06, 2005 19:41:53	Fighting Big Battles on a Battlefield Attacking/Defending If one division advances towards another division all that you have to do is roll an Attack roll (D20) for the advancing division and an opposing Attack roll for the defenders. (It’s kind of like grappling). Who ever has the higher roll, wins the skirmish. At this time roll a D20 to see how many soldiers died on the side that lost and a D10 for how many were lost on the winning side. If any of the sides are reduced to 0 then that side takes the part that they won. If there are any soldiers remaining, it is up to the DM whether they will run or put up a gallant fight in which their roll is decreased by 5+anyother thing that would originally use for a battle. Under this system, the weapons, armor, and morale are completely ignored. A unit of longbow men would cut apart a unit of heavy cav in real life, but in this system, their superior armor penetration, damage, range, and rate of fire are ignored. Attack Matrixes If a foot division (foot soldiers) is advancing on a division of mounted soldiers, the Attack roll for the foot soldiers is decreased by 4, due to the mounted soldier’s natural defense for being above the footed soldiers. On the flip side if a division of mounted soldiers attack a division of foot soldiers, the mounted soldiers gain a +4 on their attack roll, while the foot soldiers gain a +1 on their opposing attack roll. Because they are lower than the mounted troops and are able to counter attack their opponents. See above comments. Being lower is bad, a minus, not a plus. Clerics Clerics are the medics, so they usually go out after a wave and heal the wounded or after a successful attack, come and heal the wounded. Although individual stats on all the soldiers and generals are not kept, you should know that after any battle more than a few are mortally wounded, a bit more are badly wounded, few are only scrapped and bleeding a little and very little, if no one, suffered no injuries. You've got it backwards. Only a few are mortally wounded, more are badly, even more are a little cut up but okay, and a lot suffer no injuries. Ariel Combat If the combatant is attacking troops on the ground, the attacker (in the air) gets a +4 on their roll, while the soldiers on the ground get a +3 on their attack roll due to them seeing the flyer before hand. Soldiers that are on the ground cannot attack Ariel soldiers unless they have bows, crossbows, or are spellcasters. Seeing somebody before hand shouldn't give you a bonus, it should remove a penalty.
#13 zombiegleemax May 07, 2005 13:41:22	1) There is no reason why the DM can't invent the outcome of battle, unless the PCs are closely involved in it. You could base the battle on actual historical battles. 2) In truth, simply rolling massive amounts of D20s for attacking units is far easier than inventing an abstracted and complex system, especially if you have a program that will roll the dice for you. There is a program on my graphing calculator called "Probability Simulator," for example, that will roll D20s fifty at a time. It will also roll any of the other polyhedral dice, except the d12 (which is unfortunate), meaning that it can also be used for damage rolls. I'm sure there is a better computer program out there, though. If you don't want to roll for damage, you could assume half dead and half wounded. (In real life this ratio depends on a number of things. A soldier in heavy armor is less likely to be killed outright than an unarmored or lightly armored one. This is a fact that is ignored in the D&D game. The guy in heavy armor is less likely to be hit (higher AC), but once he is hit, he still takes as much damage as the unarmored guy. Good medics can reduce the number the number of deaths). All you need to do is conduct melee or ranged combat as you normally do. Assume that the combat is simultaneous--only remove casualties after both sides have attacked--unless there is a reason why one side would be able to attack first. Simultaneous combat is preferable because in "real life," soldiers would not make initiative checks as a unit as a whole, but individually. Since making huge numbers of initiative checks makes things needlessly complex, it is better to assume that the two sides attack each other at roughly the same time. I'd also like to mention that a very important aspect of warfare is morale. Your average conscript is not going to fight to the death if things start to look bad. Once a unit takes a certain amount of casualties, they are likely to rout. The "Chainmail" rules supplement for 1st edition had an interesting system for determining morale. It was based on the number of "morale points" that each soldier contributed to the total morale check. At the end of each round, if there was a large difference between the morale points of two units in melee combat, the losing side would retreat or run away. There was no roll involved in the morale check. Alternatively, you might do morale checks like will saving throws.
#14 arquinsiel May 09, 2005 6:04:06	I see what you're trying to do but it might be better to work out some system of "unit ratings" which can be combined in different ways to get an overall "division rating." Have a formula which details how said units interact, input the numbers and away you go. Do this multiple times along the line and eventually you'll have a flowing battle. All you have to do then is RP the bits the PCs are involved in.
#15 cadfan May 09, 2005 18:41:15	I just got Heroes of Battle, and I've been wondering about the same issues. They advise just ignoring the dice for large groups of NPCs, like legions numbering in the thousands, and just declaring what the outcome will be sans player involvement, then give a system for how the players can change it. But they don't seem to think there's a problem with a battle that involves the PCs, 20 odd soldiers on the PC's side, and 30 soldiers on the enemy side. That's still a lot of dice. What I may do, is just work out in advance what the average ratios ought to be. Like lets say its orcs versus humans, all standard level 1 warriors. The orcs have a strength advantage of +2, but lets say the humans have better armor, also of +2. Their weapons are about equal. Other than that, there really aren't any relevant differences, and that's a pretty balanced set of enemies. I might make it so that every round of combat, for every 5 people on one side, one person on the other side is wounded out of action. So, if 20 orcs and 20 humans fight, after one round there will be 16 orcs and 16 humans. From there I can give charge bonuses, probably by improving the ratio for the charging side, and I can easily see how the PCs can alter the battle. If they break away from fighting the troll shocktroopers for only a moment to aid their allies by killing 6 orcs, that can give the humans a numerical advantage and tip the battle in their favor. Stronger enemies on one side can tip the ratio, as can better leaders, or whatever. Maybe the humans are all hardened veterans (level 2 warriors), so they kill one orc for every 4 humans instead of every 5. That gives me a basic framework for figuring these things out. It's all a bit ad hoc, but rolling dice on 40 combatants is just insane. I'm not even intending to keep track of hp for 40 combatants at once. But unless someone else figures out a better system, this is what I'll probably do in my upcoming campaign.
#16 zombiegleemax May 09, 2005 23:25:39	Hmm, actually I have been having the problems with war in my games for ages. I think this system is the easiest way to solve it. Actually, what about using a modified swarm based combat system?
#17 zombiegleemax May 15, 2005 20:47:43	I can see how your system has some merit. The only problem is that it is too simple. The whole point of D&D is that anything is possible. This sounds like it could work for a video game but not so much for D&D. Then again, I really wouldn't want to attempt to start something like this. Keep tweaking, maybe you'll find a good one.
#18 zombiegleemax May 17, 2005 15:48:05	I see lots of "easy" abstract mass combat for D&D, but really all it boils down to is who does the DM want to win the war or battle-- so a years long campaign isn't thrashed by players that're Hannibal-wannabes. It also would seem a mass combat system is already available, that being the one we're already using. Possibly I'm oversimplifying, but using a fighter or critter or whatever to act as a template for an army or unit of troops seems workable. Just say this Fighter lvl 3 is the baddies and that Fighter level 4 is the good guys, the Fighters each representing a unit of men equal in number to the HP of the Fighter. Have them duke it out, HP loss is KiAs or wounded and outta action, unit reduced to zero is no more as a cohesive force. You could have whatever scale of army you like, just modify the units HD or level according to how green or elite you want it. Just a kernel of yet another mass combat resolution system.
#19 zombiegleemax May 22, 2005 21:17:38	I like the implementation of ratios, but it would be easiest if these ratios were determined by Hit Dice and combat conditions alone. I know earlier I spoke only of ECL, but when you consider things like succubi who's ECLs are higher than their number of hit dice and combat situations such as a phalanx flanked there are apparent necessary changes that need to be made to my original proposal. To modify Cadfan's Idea I propose that one force can kill 1/5 its own hitdice of the opposite force in whatever time period is thought to be reasonable. This is increased to 1/4 if the force in question is flanking the opposite force or if the force in question is composed of ranged attackers attacking at range. The ratio is reduced to 1/6 if the force in question is being flanked or is composed of ranged attackers now engaged in melee. Further more the denominators of these ratios can be increased or decreased one more step depending on if the leadership is good or bad.