Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Aug 16, 2005 11:53:49	I've seen a lot of talk about Generic classes recently, not just on these forums but elsewhere on other RPG boards. Some of it spurred by the Unearthed Arcana's Generic Classes, some of it spurred by the Complete series. It's an infinite loop that Generic Classes will be superceeded by Flavoured Classes and then be dumped again for Different Generic Classes. Here's why, though first I'd best give examples. Fighter - Generic Class Can be applied to many different flavours. For example, I can pick up a Greatsword, live in the wild and get angry at people, usually leading to a savage tactical display. Or I can be a Barbarian - Flavoured Class Picks up a Greatsword, lives in the wilds, gets angry at people and uses a simple savagry in combat. The Barbarian will superceed the Fighter for interpreting that style of combat, and if your DM allows you to modify the inbuilt flavour of the Barbarian - it's application will expand. Generic classes usually show up in starting out RPG's and similar games, either because the RPG hasn't really developed what it should be and how it will develop, or because the designers want to build a starting block somewhere. Now if you look at a natural form of Class development, by looking at the trends and patterns of characrter development as balance and game issues become apparent and cause a reptetion of ideas and approaches to a class, you'll see something happen to your Generic Classes. What you should see is that people will take certain classes down certain themes and avenues as they prove to be successful. People will build heavily armoured warriors to stand in the way, Rogues will develop as scouting becomes a good tactic and magic will divide into specialised sets. So what happens when you want to revise your Generic base classes? Well inevitably, someone will have tried to redesign a flavoured class into a specific class that suits their needs, combine that with class paterns and you might try the idea of changing generic classes, so that they suit a specific ideal better. That way people can get more variety out of classes and be more powerful (a near inevitable demand) and specialised. With or without a Multiclassing precendence, people will want to play Hybrids and specialists. So now you start building Generic Bases, the standard deviants and themes meld with generic classes to become Hybrid classes. The problem with Hybrid classes is that they're hard to balance. They're typically counter productive unless they're greater than the sum of their parts, and if they're greater than the sum of their parts - they're potentially overpowered. Why would anyone want to be anything but a Hybrid or a superior specialist? So now we've got a big problem, our Hybrids need to be there, but we need to keep the generics around as well. Why do we need generics? To cover all the hybrids and specialists we don't think of. Otherwise we're stuck with people forced into creating their own hybrids to match the existing hybrids or we have to create new hybrids to cover up gaps and hope they don't obliterate the generics. At this point, we could have a slight problem of expansion. As soon as you start covering the bases with Hybrids and Specialist Classes, you start loosing the value of Generic classes. Why be a Wizard Necromancer, when you can just be a Necromancer Necromancer? Then you have the player base complaining because they can't be bothered with generics because they might as well invent a specialist or Hybrid to suit their needs. This is ignoring the other issues you might have created to suppliment the potentcial inavailability of specialists with things like Prestige Classes and feats to cover anything else that gets stuck in between. So now we're at a point where practically everyone makes specialist or hybrid classes to suit their needs, or complains about the existing Specilaist or Hybrid for being to Specialist or Hybridal (not sure if that's a word). Which means the obvious fix is to make Generic classes, and use whatever else was invented to help meet character requirements to support Generic classes become a Hybrid or Specialist. Which means we've got to make our Specialists more generalist based on how generalised we think those Specialists and Hybrids should be. The process means we strip down the existing specialists, taking the common denominators and completely revamp the system so that it all works together, people use generics, then they use a bunch of customisation options to customise their generic into specialists and hybrids. The thing is, we've got that problem again... Generic classes being superceeded by Hybrids and Specialist classes, because that's what people want to play - their own thing that you didn't think of. And thus the loop is infinite and generates an Multi- directional spiral. Not quite a viscious circle, because it rarely hits base again. You just create a new circle, leave the old one behind and try again. The moral of this story? Let Hybrids and Specialists suffer, it's their own damn fault for wanting to play a backwards character in the first place.
#2 gilean_dup Aug 31, 2005 9:11:55	Well, there is only one generic class in D&D: the fighter. Rogue is pretty near, but the SA is all too specialised an ability to fit into a generic class. Wizards have the book, sorcerers have nothing but familiars (which might be generic to some; to me it is simply inappropriate). A class-based system should have either extremely generic classes (D20 modern) or very specialised ones (Warhammer FRPG, the edition I have seen). Very specialised ones require certain setting, which core D&D sorely lacks. WHFRPG, for example (though not my style, it is not a bad game) has specialised "classes" which fit seamlessly into the setting. If there is no specific setting, we get to the problem you are describing: infinite niche-filling classes. With no particular theme, and no guaranteed compatibility with any setting. In other words, not good.
#3 zombiegleemax Sep 11, 2005 22:48:39	You be your own fighter, mage or thief. But don’t knock others for liking something with some premade creativity, its hard to come up with your own full flavor within the most basic classes. Yes, it’s possible but it takes time and when you juggle life and character making then get people together it takes time. Time I would spend were it not for the fact that I have to complicated players to juggle: A kid from out of town, an actor, a recluse, the recluse’s little brother, and a girl who is constantly moving (but not really). So. I like something with some structure of its own I don’t want to have to look ahead to mix and match classes/feats/spells in order to become the adventuring conjurer I want to be when I can just be a spell-thief at first level.