"A witch?"
"Yes, m'lord."
"And you let her live here? Right in the center of town?"
"Well not 'let' as such, m'lord. See, there was this priest of St. Cuthbert who came into town one day. He told us to never fear, he wasn't going to let no witch live in a town under his protection. Anyway, he walked in bold as brass, and we found half of his head over near the town gate two weeks later. In truth, she's not bad company, m'lord. I understand some of the womenfolk go to her when they've problems that Pelor won't help them with."
"What?"
"Nothing, m'lord."
There is a persistent belief in many DMs that the average commoner1 is ready and willing to grab his sickle and torch and mob the drow/half-dragon/tiefling that just walked into town. I personally believe that in a world where a level three warlock can demolish an entire town at his leisure, the tendency of peasants to mob anything that looks remotely dangerous is not a survival trait. For instance, a drow walking around openly would quickly acquire a pack of watchmen following him around, but the watchmen would not attack until the drow did something obviously hostile. Something scarier, such as a medusa, would simply cause the people around her to break and run as fast as they could. Moreover, a medusa wearing a veil would probably not be run out of town; if there is even a small chance she can be persuaded to leave willingly and peacefully, then cooperation is a better option than trying to get the first swing in.
Now, what happens if our hypothetical civic medusa sets up shop and lives in the town peaceably? If there are no mysterious disappearances and no outbreak of statuary, what then? Some idiots may take it into their heads to try to oust her, but given the slaughter she can inflict, why would the average commoner1, who just wants to live his life in peace, take an interest in attacking her?
And finally, given that there are other, just-as-nasty hazards that like to march into towns and start eating people right off, and that this medusa has shown that she has some interest in this town, isn't it worth it to make her welcome? What if the day you drive her out is the day that orcs show up and start pillaging, and she would have stopped the orcs in defence of her town?
Now, all of this is based on the assumption that certain creatures (like medusas, ogres, and the like) are more interested in living in comfort than butchering commoners and subsequently being hunted down by adventurers. Also, local prejudices factor in heavily; a drow in an elven village will start sprouting arrows, and if the last troll that wandered into a village killed five families before being burned to death with torches and oil, then the next troll that wanders in will probably generate a mob. However, if that same troll walked into a village that hadn't been attacked by trolls recently, held up a sack that clinked like coinage, and said "Which way tavern?", would you be the first to attack it, or would you point it on its way and hope like hell it left when you wered one.
Finally, it can shake up the players to realize that no, the townsfolk aren't under a spell, they really are willing to hand the nearby hag covey a newborn infant every month in return for the protection and power they provide. Selection mechanisms and sociology aside, it can make for a good story if strange-looking buggers don't get attacked every time a group of commoners see them.
Ergo, you are better off trusting a random medusa that walks into town than you are trusting a random elf that walks into town.
1) The human psyche hates and is violent toward that which it does not understand.
2) Mob mentality. If one person starts, and then another, pretty soon everyone gets swept up in it, perhaps not even sure -why- they're doing it, or -what- it is that they're doing.
Logically speaking, you're absolutely correct. It doesn't always make sense to attack a non-hostile monster. But the human mind is -not- always logical. More often than not, a human is a reactionary being, often acting prior to any thought.
Of course, no one ever came, because it was a huge desert. His goal in life was to become a priest in the church. Well written article, the ideas are great!
In a city where the guard is tough enough to handle medusae and such
Where there is an order of soldiers, paladins, monks or clerics of war who make meddling with monsters their job
When rumors start, and the monstrous PC is blamed for everything and anything that goes wrong
When a rabble-rouser among the peasants is offended by the monstrous PC, and wishes revenge
When the PCs' enemies make trouble
...then the monstrous PC is in trouble.
Best to keep a good disguise skill, in my opinion.
You pointed out that no first level commoner will risk his life verse the new drow in town, but why metagame the towns people? No one walks around with their level stamped on their forehead, the guy in platemail may be a paper tiger in a fancy suit (aristocrat lv 1), while the barkeep maybe a retired adventurer (Fighter/Barbarian 4/6). When the monster comes to town commoners don't think, "Well he's a CR 6 so I'd better sit this one out." He thinks, "If I get the blacksmith, he's a war vet, and Bojn the stable hand is the strongest in the village, and some of the militia we can ask this ogre to leave, and hopefully no one will get hurt". So form your mobs if the occasion is right, just have them run like mad when the first few are killed/wounded taken out by spells etc. Think of the motivations first and then act on them, the level differences will only be apparent after steel is drawn.
The situation would be like a huge pile of dried grass, waiting for the spark to start the blaze. All it would take is one racist or arrogant fool to whip the crowd into a frenzy and then there would be blood. You really have to remember that while no poor Commoner1 faced with a troll asking where the tavern is would be brave enough to do more then point the troll in the right direction and wet himself. That same commoner would be more then happy to chase the troll out of town with torches when there are 20 or more other people with him who want to do the same.
So to make my point a little more clear, I think you are right to an extent. The closer to the general population the creature is, the more likely such a creature would be tolerated. The more frightening and strange a creature is the quicker someone will rally people up to chase the monster away.
The thing about a village that gives a newborn to the hags for protection would be much more like an extortion theme then anything else because it would be more likely that they are paying for protection from the hags themselves as much as protection from other outside threats. And for something like that to truly work you really need to plan out the why of it. The logistics, do they pick the baby's from a lottery? Or is there a section of the population that is being used for this fodder. The whole thing can create a huge potential for adventure though. Especially if you are not playing hack and slash style. Because inquisitive PCs will likely know nothing about the hags or the bargain that is going on. Instead they would first notice strange little oddities, and would have to dig to uncover what is going on. Which would likely spark conflict with the town officials since the PCs would likely be seen as a threat to the town's stability if they interfered with the sacrifice. So likely you would have people in charge trying to dissuade the PCs from moving on, It could even develop into a limited combat situation depending on how the PCs act. There would also be the matter of how the Hags view the town. If they view it as their property it is likely that they would move to act against the PCs if they started digging too much. But that is way off on a tangent. As you can see there is a lot of truth to the concept of towns mobbing a frightening creature that enters town but if you are going to have a resident monster in a town then you have to think that the creature has found a way around the mob either by proving its peaceful intend to cowing them into just leaving it alone. So think that out as background information that the PCs may have the chance to uncover.
And when after this the monster wouldn't act aggressive in any way and even help the community in some cases people might come to accept its presence. They would still be wary of it, but as long as it doesn't attack them its fine.
And even when the mob doesn't dissolve, a Troll or Medusa can easily kill the whole male population of a small town. So after the fight you have the woman, the children lots of blood/stone statues and a hurt but still living monster.
Logically speaking, I would think that most humans, especially joe average, would not bear arms against creatures that are much larger and more fearsome than they. If they can muster up a mob, they probably think they stand a chance even against heavy hitters like trolls and might rise up against the otherwise innocuous intruder having no grasp in the mechanics of CR and level ranges.
Why a monster might come to town with benign interests in mind could be a topic of interest, but traditionally most monsters find us meat sacks rather tasty, and thusly in a typical campaign humanoids are going to possess a fear of being a bite-sized snack. Even if the troll were to stop and calmly state that he is simply looking to apprentice in basket weaving, the townsfolk might question this inordinate take in vocation as a crude ruse. The troll would have to make a display of action (or inaction as it were), that it is indeed not looking to slaughter them all.
It depends on the individual monster, standard humanoids like a drow will most likely be killed or chased out if your campaign setting has a history of the drow being nasty baby-eating backstabbing rogues. Fearsome, powerful creatures like trolls, ogres, minotaur, etc will most certainly be feared in a default campaign, but will probably go unmolested as the townsfolk wisely avoid it, keep their doors locked, and do their best to avoid angering it unless they possess the manpower to drive it away. Eventually it could gain their trust and even be a welcomed member of the community, but due to the infrequency of benign monster infringement in your standard backwater village (since most monsters seem to be PCs like myself who just want to play a nonstandard race), monster aversion will probably be at an all time high for years to come.
First, they will use the sum-total of their past experiences with similar creatures. If the town has been attacked by hordes of goblins in the past, the commoner would likely be predisposed to at a minimum distrust and shun the goblin trying to get into town, but even more likely, call the guards fearing that it is a scout for the next invasion.
Secondly, the commoner will likely utilize any personal knowledge thy possess about such a creature. This is something that could vary wildly based on the individual. If the person has heard stories of favorable and unfavorable actions taken by similar creatures, they will likely take a wait-and-see approach, but will most likely neither confront nor willingly interact with the creature in question. When making decisions based on this factor, weight the history of the area with regard to the creature and known (or suspected) actions that similar creatures have had attributed to themselves.
Finally, they will gauge their chances of "getting away" with any action against the creature. If there is low risk of severe consequences, the person is more likely to take some manner of negative action. The biggest factor here is anonymity. It is easy to shout invectives, throw stones, or otherwise harass a creature if you can stand as one in a crown and not be singled out. This would come into effect in any situation where people would naturally gather such as in a tavern or a public meeting.
Another factor to consider is the "reputation" of the creature. If the creature is generally well-known as far as its abilities and temperament, and they are generally considered dangerous, people would tend to steer clear of the creature. If the creature is an unknown in the area and is not subject to any local legends, people would be more apt to take an aggressive stance.
Part of playing a "monster" is that you are, indeed, a monster. The roleplaying challenge comes from being the "other", the thing that does not quite fit, literally "the thing that should not be." If the game world does not react in any meaningful way to you, then you are, for all intents and purposes, a human in a rubber suit.
IMO
Yeah, that could be a very bad case for the goblin. From the guards standpoint, the gobbo has every reason to lie about his intentions, meaning they really have no reason to trust anything he says. Depending on how the goblin handles the situation, he could end up jailed for awhile, beaten, and/or killed.
If they are feeling particularly nice, they may opt for slavery after severe beatings have been doled out.
Secondly, the commoner will likely utilize any personal knowledge thy possess about such a creature. This is something that could vary wildly based on the individual. If the person has heard stories of favorable and unfavorable actions taken by similar creatures, they will likely take a wait-and-see approach, but will most likely neither confront nor willingly interact with the creature in question. When making decisions based on this factor, weight the history of the area with regard to the creature and known (or suspected) actions that similar creatures have had attributed to themselves.
Every instance is going to be highly circumstantial. It depends on the general race of the townsfolk, the region, the local knowledge of the monster's mannerisms. Again, if its something humanoid in size and shape, like a drow, I could easily see a town gathering a mob and running it out of town or killing it. If its something massive that could cleave through droves of pitchfork toting stablehands, they might reconsider their actions. In the latter case, the creature stands a better chance of displaying a friendly attitude since smart folk would be disinclined to anger the beastie.
Finally, they will gauge their chances of "getting away" with any action against the creature. If there is low risk of severe consequences, the person is more likely to take some manner of negative action. The biggest factor here is anonymity. It is easy to shout invectives, throw stones, or otherwise harass a creature if you can stand as one in a crown and not be singled out. This would come into effect in any situation where people would naturally gather such as in a tavern or a public meeting.
I disagree here. Most towns are where they are for a reason, and I don't think the fact that they could all run away would lead them to provoke a large creature in an undue fashion, especially if it seems capable of rending them all with ease. Running away to overpopulate the next town over would be bad, and it would be even harder to try and drop stakes somewhere else and start over again.
Also, if there is a troll giving flowers to kids, I'm not about to stone it while in the middle of a crowd. If that is really an angry troll then it would might just start ripping people apart. Basically, until it starts busting through houses and bathing in the blood of the innocent, I dont think anyone is gonna toss it any flak.
Another factor to consider is the "reputation" of the creature. If the creature is generally well-known as far as its abilities and temperament, and they are generally considered dangerous, people would tend to steer clear of the creature. If the creature is an unknown in the area and is not subject to any local legends, people would be more apt to take an aggressive stance.
A very important point, but also heavily based on circumstance. In most cases, drow are known for their evil society where they eat children and burn things at random. Since they bleed like a human and have less hp on average, in many instances a mob would be able to easily kill him/her, or at the very least chase him out of town and pray he doesn't come back in the night to smite them all.
In the case of trolls, they are known to be less discriminating that goats as to what they will eat, and fresh meats are a high priority. The problem is that a troll is MUCH more violent and aggressive, stronger and more durable. A single troll stands a good chance of wiping out a farming community, and for this reason due to its notoriety in this theoretical township, I doubt many if anyone is going to throw the first stone.
Monstrous PCs can be the same way. While monsters in general are unwelcome, there are specific named exceptions. Just have a suitable reason for why these creatures want to come into towns regularly, and they have been doing so. And if they are violent and antagonistic, they are easier to hunt down... well, easier to locate.
Logically the monsters wouldn't be mobbed unless they provoked an attack themselves. This would be logically sound and fits together with how we want our own legal system to be, "innocent 'til proven guilty" is what we are aiming for in this case. Realistically however, people don't think logically when they believe that their lives are at stake. Gathering the strongest people in town and ambushing the beast hoping to kill it before it can do the same to them.
I am going to follow this debate.
P.S. I still hope that the Sculptor Medusa won't be driven out of town when she gives proof that she uses granite from a nearby mountain for the statues
A human village will not last any time in the typical D&D Universe. A great number of the creatures can simply walk into the village and destroy everything. The reason humanity has always survived is based on the fact that large numbers of humans will be under the same flag and while the village may not care the King certainly will. The 3d level warlock that destroyed the village of Berg finds himself with a 1000 gp bounty on his head for treason against the King.
The best way to prevent an ocean of blood is to make obvious your ability to spill a lake of it. If the Hag moves into the village the King hears about it and sends out troops and kills the Hag so when the other Hags hear about it they think twice about going into any human village. When the ogre village gets too large the King sends forth an army and crushes them. When the dragon bothers the kingdom he expends a large amount of gold and offers a reward, payable on the death of the dragon, to anyone that can kill it. If the average king shows a lack of this trait then monsters move into his borders and destroy his villages.
Also of consideration is how tolerant they are. A CG town will be more accepting than a LN town, I'd wager. Of course, the specific circumstances can override this. I think the townspeople's first reaction would be shock, and maybe a small degree of "what the heck is that?". After that, if the creature proves itself civil, then they might allow it around, but maybe not trust it completely.
A common person would know that a troll is pretty much immune to weapons, it can rip a strong man or even horse in half. That's a pretty formidable combination. In a place with a lot of troll raids (in Greyhawk, a settlement in the Theocracy of the Pale near the Troll Fens) locals will have adapted to the environment. In LG, it is a joke that you can tell the Pale adventurers because they all have cold weather clothing, even in the desert, and they all carry silly amounts of oil flasks. The Prelatal army standard soldier load is 10 flasks, and their heavy infantry have specific troll-killing tactics involving tower shields, bait and run and small amounts of alchemy fire and large amounts of oil. (the archer squads have an easier time).
The average Pale citizen might have oil in the house but wouldn't seriously attempt to battle a troll. That's a task beyond even a mob equipped with fire, the casualties suffered in success wouldn't be worth it. I did have a character though that sold "troll-killer" traps for a few gp a pop, not counting alchemical supplies. Two gallon-jugs of oil with either alchemist fire or torch ignitian systems that work on a trip-wire or when a door is opened...they swing in from two sides and *might* kill a troll in one round if they both hit and the dice are kind. A troll that survives might put out the fire, but he might not open any more doors in that farmstead, even if the trap misfires. These are kind of like home security systems though...people buy them but it is rare that one is tested and rarer that the result is capturing a criminal.
Most cultures have the concept of "a mob can kill this" and "even a mob can't do anything to that." You don't have angry mobs attacking military units unless very seriously provoked. Some things are immune even to a provoked mob. Fighter aircraft and dragons, for example, are kind of similar to non-military individuals. You need military hardware to even have a tiny chance of killing one (the D&D equivalent of a rocket launcher would be a 7+ level save/die scroll with a 1/20 chance of working).
So, if I am an isolated settlement and somebody moves in with the equivalent power of a Tank (troll), fighter plane (dragon) or is the humanoid equivalent of a weapon of mass destruction (Medusa, Beholder), AND they acted nonviolently, then hopefully, yes, I could see them being accepted. Especially if the isolated settlement is such that it is subject to a lot of dangers, where a tank would be darn handy. If they bullied their way in, the response would be to either assassinate them while sleeping or drunk, or to send for help from the overlord or allied city-state or whatever.
The Garret series by Glen Cook does a pretty good job of showing a cosmopolitan city with a large mix of races, some monstrous. Half-ogres are very dumb and have anger-management issues, so cops have to be careful around them. They can't be beat for heavy labor though.
Further, many of these creatures are hated and feared for their preying on mankind for hundreds of years. The relationship between an orc and a human are likely to be like a German and a Russian in 1943.
People are afraid of what they do not understand and hate what they are afraid of. They would not understand the strange rituals of a drow to his gods and therefore feel uncomfortable around him.
I hope I didn't say anything that was already said.
Drizzt tends to get different actions from different cities. Those that feel powerful enough tend to turn him away, sometimes with a threat. There are a few small towns who don't feel powerful enough, and tend to be uneasy the whole time. One of the better distinctions between the two was the use of a city wall. Those cities who are large enough and wealthy enough to have a wall and a gate are powerful enough to turn away those who are unwanted. Those without a wall may hide if the stranger is in any way different- even the barbarian in the party had a few stares because of his size.
There are those who would not directly pick fights, but may indeed trip the offensive creature, or throw a dirt clod from a crowd, that would not normally be considered trouble makers. This is an ideal roleplaying time, as the wrong move can start a mob, while the right move could lessen tention.
To be considered is also the length of time they stay and activity of the non-human. It may be upsetting, but non-provoking for a half-troll to come to the village, get supplies, and leave, but if that same half-troll started building a house, a scapegoat for troubles would suddenly be found.
Back in the Icewind Dale Trilogy, the party encounters a village that has a semi-resident banshee. The banshee's lair is only a few miles outside of town, yet the townsfolk insist the party not harm her. The author's reason for this is explained as the banshee gives the otherwise nameless town a fame, a popularity, a reason for the town to be named.
At the main place the drow stays during the trilogy are seven towns. Despite saving the towns several times and keeping the surrounding countryside clear of monsters, Drizzt is not allowed in the towns, and is often mistrusted, but he is allowed to stay outside the town without being attacked.
In contrast, there is a town he ventures to occupied mainly by a family of approximately CG wizards. While never being threatened his entire stay, Drizzt was very disturbed by the encounter by constant questions from curious wizards. I would extrapolate that so that even in the very intelligent communities where a demihuman could be accepted, the said demihuman would still find life uncomfortable for quite some time. Also problems could arise in even these towns with travelers. A sudden attack from the back or side while the demihuman is getting daily supplies would be a very real possibility from a frequently traveled town.
Also of interest would be the demihuman's traveling companions. If the party is composed of demihumans it would have a much harder time entering any city compared to a party of mainly humans and a single demihuman. If there is a known local hero in the party, it could make the demihuman's entry easier, especially if the said hero volunteered to vouch for its good conduct.
Trying to logically argue whether or not monsters and humans can live in harmony is a bit like arguing whether your fantasy world's sky can be blue or pink. It's a matter of taste.
I read the first 5 or 8 sentences of the first post. I then accidentally stopped on this post, a simple quick of the scroll-mouse, and it was one sentence, and I read so quickly, I just quoted this one.
Exactly.
Whether you deal with a fantasy or real-life, it's just your choice.
Fantasy: Your silly thrikreen can walk around because the next guy on the barstool is hovering about 8" above it and beckoning with it's 7th eyestalk.
Realism: Commoners are stupid and uneducated rabble, and all respect stems from fear. Your dress is better, you can kill them because you are noble; Your armor says you are the kings guard, you can kill them because an attack upon them is an attack upon the king; Your sword says, you can kill them, because swords trump plows. Your race is alien to them? Now lets play around with aliens, supernatural, and even writing or arithmetic!
Ever read the The Wizards Online Community Code of Conduct?
Mix the elements as you will. For some reason, people have been getting angry with me using this sentence: "Your game, your rules".
As if, it might be that I might not agree with the vision they have, so, ... I'm Drizzt Douerdowhoever.
NeueRegel
It's a double-edged sword. Your player is insisting on a PC that will cause half the town to flip out on first viewing, but then that is also usually the player who least wants to roleplay (choosing the monstrous race for its fear-inspiring or battle qualities).
Then, if you don't do enough to play the townsfolk as fearful, you have at least one other player accusing you of ignoring that plot point. But the player in question doesn't want the attention, especially when all the attention from the villagers derails the plot. But, then again, if he isn't trying to attract attention to himself, why is he overpowering in my game?
You can't win, roleplaying-wise, with that sort of thing. That's why, if I had my druthers, I'd ban playing monstrous types from out game completely.
If a monster they cannot handle enters town, odds are they would flee or leave
But we are not talking about Drows and Orcs, things a normally trained human can defeat with a reasonably chance. We are talking about trolls or worse, creatures which are much more powerful than a human. A village trying to attack even one of them will have horrendous losses or will even be destroyed completely. Even someone with less than normal intelligence and wisdom will recognize that those are no creatures which should be attacked except when you have a death wish.
Ehm, didn't you just use the example drow yourself? Or at least drow/half dragon/tiefling at least. All of those are defeatable for even humans, especially when they band together.
Another misconception is that an angry mob is only made of lvl 1 commoners. That's not so. Sure, most may level one but quite a few may be level 3-4-5, and some may be warriors. And that if we rule out the clichéd retired adventurer innkeeper.
Most villages or town have a militia, and many of these are ready to band together and kill whatever troll or ogre is harassing them. And any troll entering a village should expect attack or fleeing commoners, probably both.
Not everybody is 'nice'. In your ideal fantasy world, people *might* willingly accept those that are different, but even in today's modern world, those that are different are often harassed, feared and hated, due to religious and racial differences.
Now let's think about the Middle Ages.
You are a Western European peasant. Let's say that you are English. A person of Jewish origin sets up shop near your home. How do you feel? Let us remember that the Jews were kicked out of England in the Middle Ages because of their differences. They weren't evil, they weren't a threat, just different.
Now put this xenophobic mindset into the commoners of a Dungeons and Dragons world.
An Ogre tries to stay in the barn of the local inn, being too large for the beds. The innkeep allows it, but you, a regular customer at the bar in the inn, may not be as accepting. Why? Because you are ignorant, because you aren't clever, because you are prejudiced, because you are afriad and maybe even because your alignment is 'Neutral' and not 'Good'.
So what do you do? You grab your hatchet and a torch and go round the village, rounding up the militia that helped you beat them kobolds last year. You surprise the beast and kill it, saving your wife, children and beloved sheep.
Remember, people just aren't all nice and accepting. There are a lot of ignorant people out there. Why would a Dungeons and Dragons world be any different when it comes to prejudices?
Now put this xenophobic mindset into the commoners of a Dungeons and Dragons world.
An Ogre tries to stay in the barn of the local inn, being too large for the beds. The innkeep allows it, but you, a regular customer at the bar in the inn, may not be as accepting. Why? Because you are ignorant, because you aren't clever, because you are prejudiced, because you are afriad and maybe even because your alignment is 'Neutral' and not 'Good'.
So what do you do? You grab your hatchet and a torch and go round the village, rounding up the militia that helped you beat them kobolds last year. You surprise the beast and kill it, saving your wife, children and beloved sheep.
Remember, people just aren't all nice and accepting. There are a lot of ignorant people out there. Why would a Dungeons and Dragons world be any different when it comes to prejudices?
This also has holes in it. Why would the militia help him? The troublemaker isn't the one who has to risk his life against an Ogre so unless the whole milita is xenophobic they won't risk their life fighting an Ogre when he stays peaceful.
Also an Ogre is the weakest thing discussed here. Other monsters like a troll or medusa can kill the whole militia. Are people really that xenophobic to take the risk? Such troublemakers tend to pick on someone who is weaker than himself or the group they are in and Ogre, Troll or Medusa certainly isn't. It isn't a question if D&D people are nicer than in the real world. It is a question if those people are stupid enough to attack something they can't defeat or can only defeat with enormous losses.
First, for something directly out of D&D mythology, let us return to Drizzt Do'Urden, founder of more stereotypes than any other single character. Yet, he was, at one point, original, and is still a valid character all the same. In "Sojourn" from the dark elf trilogy, we get the best example of what would Really happen to a monstrous PC. He was turned away. Not just once, not occasionally, Every Single Time. Travelling the Breadth of the Forgotten Realms, not ONE city would allow him to enter. The nicer, more tolerant ones, politely turned him away, explaining it would cause a panic. Yet they were still prepared to do exactly what the less nice ones did should he try to force entry- chase him away with swords in hand.
Even when accompanied by a group of humans (deranged humans who wanted him around so as to allow him to Hurt them (gotta love Ilmater)), he sat outside cities while they did their business, and rejoined them in the wilderness. When did he get allowed into cities? When he was around level 13 to 14, had been adventuring in one area all that time, and had done deeds of epic good. Then, still, he was more often than not turned away. He was only allowed in, typically, as a ploy to capture/ kill him (Luskan), because he was in Disguise (Waterdeep), or because they had not the strength to fight, and he literally scared them into inaction (town with a banshee).
Now, let us examine the real life situation, as a True equivalency. You hear on the news that some inhuman creature is on the loose- even a group of 3 or 4 can take out an entire city, standard knives, bullets, even the heaviest machine guns seem to have little effect. The military is being deployed to fight them, and stories are being broadcast all the time about them killing and eating children, massacres, and worse. As you stand in your local supermarket, you turn to your left and see one. What does he want? You'll never know, you already soiled yourself and ran away as fast as your legs could carry you, screaming all the way. What does everyone else do? Well, Michigan State Riots when their team loses. For that matter, they riot when their team wins. When word gets out that one of the beasts was seen in a City near there, they'd tear the city apart. The military would be informed, and sent in to take it out. If not from the beast, people would die in the rioting caused by MASS PANIC. You'd never know it was asking for the local tavern, who would stop long enough to find out?
The same in D&D, but worse. Their only media is Bards. And bards do not seek to tell the truth, they seek to tell a good story. If someone has lived with the reality of trolls, they know the danger they represent, and know one cannot be allowed to live. They know the implacable evil they represent. If they don't know the reality, they only know the horrible rumors, the whispers too dark to ever let your children hear. No, they would not seek to slay a minotaur PC. They would run like hell, and gather the militia, who would seek to slay the minotaur PC.
Consider, too, this- how the hell did the monstrous PC get into the town or city in the first place? Most have gates of some kind, where the main road goes into city proper. At the very least, the roads are watched. And the militia would never allow it. Assuming there was no guard, or they somehow (Massive DC diplomacy check) convinced the guard of their non-hostile nature, or they simply got around them, people would literally run screaming, locking doors behind them while the militia was summoned.
Only in places where non-standard races were common, such as Waterdeep perhaps, and even that is stretching it, could they even gain entry. Even then, massive amounts of places would refuse to be associated with them, deny them business, and they would suffer a penalty on all social skills with just about everyone.
In the 50's, people were literally killed for their suspected relation to communism. Known communists were run out of towns, denied jobs, made a social outcast in every possible way. And they were still human.
Keep in mind, while individuals may be tolerant, mobs are generally not. Populations as a whole depend on what sort of individuals comprise them, and even 1/100 not being tolerant is highly visible, and harrowing at every turn, as they tend to stand out. In modern US, some African Americans still feel highly discriminated against, not because the general population is racist, but because enough people are to make life more difficult.
Keep in mind, too, that the typical D&D campaign is, generally speaking, NOT like modern culture, where differences are accepted, even welcomed. In D&D, they deal much more with direct, gruesome violence and irredeemable evil. In D&D, a Dwarf might get gouged on the price of their room in a more backwater human community- and a troll, minotaur, or any other monstrous race would be something else entirely. There is no way, in my humble opinion, they would adopt the philosophy of live and let live, except in extremely rare circumstances. They would simply not (and understandably not) have the expectation of it letting them live, and there is no way they would allow it to remain long enough to find out either way, for if it was Not going to, they are all quite dead, and most people can't afford resurrections.
They have resources to draw on- a D&D campaign Shouldn't be set up in city structure so that a 5th level PC can level it, for otherwise, why hasn't the 7th level BBEG done that long ago? There is no reason for them not to immediately draw upon those resources to get that taken care of, and no reason for the town to tolerate your presence, regardless of your intentions, for the unease and panic created among the populace are not evenly weighed with your convenience.
Now, this is not all campaigns. Some campaigns, especially super high fantasy ones, might have minotaur around every corner, gnomes mingling freely in all human communities, and have half orcs among the population as often as Mexicans in Texas. In that case, by all means. The population should be perfectly fine with it. However, in some campaigns, including forgotten realms, this is not the case. And no, they can't hope to kill it themselves, but fear = inaction. If I saw a tank strolling through the streets I'd no more sit idly by than run out and try clubbing it. I'd call the police, make sure they were aware of it, and if they weren't, they'd get the FBI or military in there to take care of it.
They don't have to try to kill you. That's what the militia is there for.
My opinions are my own, and I am not trying in any way to force them on anyone else, please don't hate me for holding them. Also realize, though, that most people won't tolerate a threat to their safety, and that of their livelihood, and family, for long, even under an assurance that threat won't cause them harm, and especially not when there are other options.
One racist COULD spark a riot, but the opposite could easily happen--he makes trouble, and everyone else takes a giant step back, leaving him standing alone against the troll. It depends on how the rest of the people are disposed to feel; if they're already afraid of the monster's presence, they might form a mob; if they're more sanguine about it, he'll find no rabble to rouse. In any case he'll probably get a chance to explain himself, even if that chance is interrupted by a thrown dirt clod.
By the same token, this assumes the monster is frightening; something like a couatl or Antioch's sphinx would inspire more respect that fear, I think. After all, who wouldn't want to have an oracle in town? In the case of a monster who just wants to live its life, you'd probably start out with the monster offering minor aid to those brave enough to ask--for example, the hag that makes up small magical cures and such for villagers in need, or a Good ogre who helps the old widow chop wood.
Aside: A medusa sculptor would take on an extra-creepy aspect if she ended up carving statues in honor of the dead, for use as headstones. Talk about potential for misunderstanding!
You're right, EvilBob, that there'll usually be a landlord involved, but I think it makes sense for a peaceful monster to be allowed to live there after having a talk with the local authority. I think prejudice only goes so far, and it's more likely to be a problem in big cities than small villages because of the anonymity factor. OTOH, a big city might be more used to seeing monsters. In any case, an ogre who shows up at the city gate and adequately explains his business might be allowed in with a military escort. It depends how you want to portray the people, really--how reactionary are they? How fair-minded? A LN town would probably allow anybody to go about their business if they promise to obey the law; you don't want to portray everyone as jerks. How about the nascent mob that's dispersed by the advice of the wise sage?
Of course, part of the fact that RSOs are not mobbed when they move into a neighborhood is that would, of course, be illegal and most of us make an effort to follow the law (except for the speed limit). If your fantasy city is lawful enough, with a strong enough legal code, it may already have written laws from precedence. Perhaps your monstrous PC isn't the first one in town. Issaquah, Washington recently passed an ordinance not allowing RSO to live within 1000 feet of a daycare or school. This is just a precaution. Perhaps your fantasy cities can have rules in place governing where monstrous humanoids can and cannot dwell, shop, drink or whatever. Of course, it always comes to alignments. Is having an evil alignment grounds for being tossed out of town or worse? In a LG or LN city, I would say no. It a CG or CN city, maybe.
The way I see it, an encounter between a small Middle Ages Village and say, a troll, would play out something like this: Serf Bob is out tending the fields. He spots a very large green gangly thing with claws and poor hygiene walking along the game trail near the fields, heading in the direction of the village. Serf Bob has never seen a Troll before. The village is a typical farming community, only about a half day's walk from the village down the trail, which Serf Bob has never been to anyway. Serf Bob realizes that this gangly monstrosity is something that should probably be feared. He ducks down, hoping he hasn't been seen yet, and as quickly as "stealth" permits, tries to make his way to the village faster than the troll, picking up a heavy stick, should the "Thing" catch him on his way there.
When he makes it to the village, he finds that he isn't the only one to have seen the creature. The Church bells are rung in warning, and after a few moments, the troll is seen coming through the last bend of the trail. The gates to the village close, and may the gods have mercy on those who didn't manage to make it in in time. Those trapped outside of the village scatter to the assorted hovels or even to hide among the fields, something which they are very practiced at. If the village and its lord are wealthy, all of the serfs enter the church to pray while the Lord's Men-at-arms deals with the outsider, otherwise, the women and children enter the church, and any male capable of holding a spear is put on the walls.
Now is the point that determines how much bloodshed will occur. Most people wouldn't even want to go up against a troll, regardless of whether or not they know what it is. At this point the leader probably asks what the troll is and what he wants. If the troll states that it wants to come inside the village, he will have to be very persuasive. Anything less than a Declaration of Independence caliber speech will probably result in him being turned away. After the troll is sent away, things are still not ok; after all, the troll IS still out there. More than likely, many militia patrols are sent out (including one to the feudal lord warning of trolls lurking in the local wilderness) before the serfs return home (barring their doors ever more securely hoping the troll doesn't come to devour them in the night).
The Lord will probably have his men-at-arms, or even he himself may, go out, track down the beast, and attempt to slay it in order to "protect" his vassals. Even in the astronomically small chance that the Troll manages to gain entry to the village by non-violent means, his safety is not assured. A dispatch will still probably be sent to the lord to warn him of a troll's presence within his fief. More than likely, without even attempting to learn the circumstances, the lord will view the troll as too large a risk to his main source of income to suffer the troll to live. If he is LG, he would probably consider it to large a risk to his oath of defense. If the troll manages to win the fight, even without killing anyone, he still violently attacked representatives of the crown, which is usually enough to get a writ of outlawry placed upon yourself.
Granted, most adventurers tend to travel in groups, but outside of the oddball adventuring party that has an exotic race or two present (and are often so few and far between as to be considered non-existent), the only people who associate with monsters are those who would do harm to the village anyway, such as bandits, evil wizards, or enemies of the feudal lord.
The Middle Ages were not a cosmopolitan time, and the average serf wasn't about to risk his own life in combat, when the average village of the era had a perfectly good wooden wall (with gates) to keep things like trolls and half dragons out. Cities were rarely any more accepting than this. If the troll had a cart with many identifiable trade goods, he would probably be more welcome in a city, but the village would still probably ask him to move on, but then again, they might send out villagers to conduct trade with the troll before doing so. Goods are goods, who cares where you got them from? All under the armed and watchful eye of the militia. If the troll were to do this many times--and taking a hit to his purse every now and again would certainly help--the village might be willing to let him in, but this would take a long period of time.
I also find all the "racism" arguments really lame. It's not an issue of prejudice. The drow are a known evil group as are trolls, ogres and 'color' dragons. When they are around the more peaceful/civilized types of humanoids tend to die. More then likely if one of these things shows up on the horizon, the town’s first instinct will be to attack. If the thing is accompanied by a couple of humans, most folks are going to assume that the humans are also evil.
How about this as an example that you might be able to relate to: A murderer, a rapist, and a **** all escaped from prison. You don’t know them personally, just heard the reports and descriptions on the radio. There are three men unknown to you standing out front of your home who match the description of the escapees. You don’t have photos so you don’t know for sure. Are you going to ignore them because they haven’t done anything to you yet or call the police?
It really comes down to “it’s your world, its your game” but I find it funny that people are trying to rationalize it. Monsters are just that, monsters. If in your world there are known non-evil versions of monsters then use that as the baseline for people reactions. But the first one to walk out of the dark and try and join civilization is going to have a very, very difficult time of it.
If it proves hostile, they'll try to chase it away, killing it if possible. If the troll massacred five or six people in less than a minute, very possible, they'll probably run away and hopefully come up with a better idea. Such as flaming arrows and thrown torches
If the troll is not hostile, it would still be asked to leave in non tolerant towns. In the more tolerant towns, I'd say its watched by the best and brightest available to the local militia/constabulary.
On an entirely different note, I often add the unusual monster inhabitant to towns. It makes places more unique and helps avoid the clichéd retired adventurer. I even had a Medusa Sorcerer who did sculptors in a town. She made standard sculptures, but she ran a side business in which people who were dieing of a terminal illness or old age could be polymorphed into a younger form of themselves, then petrified for use as their own gravestones. This was carefully monitored by the local government, but the townsfolk enjoyed having such a wondrous reminder of their lost loved ones. Not to mention that the medusa made an excellent deterrent to the local orc tribes.
Some towns are going to be receptive and welcoming. Some will allow a monster in but have nothing to do with them. Some will turn a monster away. Some will chase a monster away and kill it if possible.
Now you have to apply some reason to this. If trolls are a problem in the region trolls are probably going to be chased away and killed if possible. If trolls aren't a problem in the area there's a better chance a random troll will get the wait and see treatment if he tries to enter.
At the same time if a random drow walks into a human town he might be allowed in provided he behaves himself. However, if the same random drow walked into a predominantly elf or half-elf community there's a good chance he won't get to walk out even if the most threatening thing he did was simply be a drow taking a stroll through the town. If you're just a random member of some race don't go walking into a town occupied mostly by a race where every member has helpful attack modifiers against you or where general knowledge of the race says you want be liked. I think these are stats and out of character knowledge that represent things the character would logically know in character.
Of course you should take into account your particular campaign setting. If Half-Orcs are common enough and accepted enough to be a player race you obviously do have orcs walking into town on a regular basis and even settling down and starting a family with some human woman. Otherwise half-orcs would be raised in orc society, and everyone would assume a half-orc is usually a monster too.
That said obviously fame will help. Eventually a monster will be able to at worst sit outside any town while being watched provided some evil member of his race doesn't start impersonating him and ruining his name.
Residency is a different matter. Unless the monster is friends with the king, mayor, or whoever the local authority is or he's repeatedly put his life on the line for the town and local people he's probably always going to be treated as a second class citizen so he'd better be prepared to deal with discrimination and low level insults and humiliation on a regular basis.
One final thing that I think would be reasonable to expect any random monster approaching a town where people aren't already dead set on fighting him is that someone will point out that if the monster actually had bad intentions he wouldn't have peacefully approached the gate in broad daylight and asked for permission to enter.
I think that, with monstrous PCs now being part of the game, one thing has been forgotten: some creatures don't come in the good flavors. Everyone now plays all varieties of monsters as PCs, and these creatures are given anthropomorphic qualities: being played by humans, everyone starts to think they're somewhat human. It's like thinking that lions or dogs or cats or birds think like us. They don't. Likewise, if a creature like a medusa is evil and its gaze turns people to stone, don't come telling me that this creature has had a rough childhood, and now wants to open up a porcelain shop and live her old days drinking tea with the other ladies in the village. The medusa is not human. She changes living creatures to stone by looking at them, and being an evil creature, she likes doing that! That is her nature.
So now, the question is: what if one medusa/troll or whatever normally evil creature comes up in town, but this one specimen is not evil? Well, she'd be treated like her predecessors, because it's a killing machine, unless she can prove without doubt that she's different (see the Drizz't arguments in other posts). Unless the townfolk know nothing of that creature, in which case this entire discussion is meaningless anyway.
So in the end, I do think that any troll/medusa that walks into town to try to live there, will either be mobbed immediately, or will attract the local authority that will do the creature in or, if the creature is obviously not hostile, drive it away.
Sky
I don't think that there are any town in any campaign that could be easily destroyed by a passing ogre or troll. When someone founds a town, they ensure that it is protected. My PCs seem to have this problem thinking that they are the highest level people in the city, and think nothing of starting a tavern brawl, confident that they are facing a bunch of lvl 1 commoners.
Everyone in the DnD world has had some experience with weapons or fighting off monsters, to some extent, so I think that NPCs lvl 5-8 are fairly commonplace in your average city (maybe I just run a high-powered campaign), so I find it hard to believe that a town's protection rest solely on the guards' shoulders. Why would there be mass amounts of lvl1 commoners around when they know that there life lasts only as long as the guards keep the next monster from running loose. They would either train themselves better, or they would help pay for more guards.
Villages and small towns aren't very good protected, it is a wonder that they still stand with all the monsters around. A lone Grey Render can kill a whole village all by himself. A troll might be killed or driven off (if the people know how to kill it) but they will have huge losses and against a band of trolls they again have no chance.
The same response would hold true for a giant, though since giants are less frequently seen in most places, they would draw larger crowds. Meanwhile, a monstrous humanoid or stranger creature waltzing into town would draw a large crowd or, if it is more monstrous than humanoid, send everyone running, screaming from it. Again, frequency of encounter would change how everyone reacted.
The point is, if a large crowd were drawn, it wouldn't take a single racist or bigot, as many people have suggested. Instead, it would take good old Bob Smith, who has three daughters who (he thinks) are all virgins and is in the back of the crowd and has heard stories about what red dragons do to young maidens. Behind everyone else, he'd pick up a rock and throw it at the half-red dragon, and suddenly everyone else thinks "hey, someone threw the first stone, it's ok if I do to!" and bam - instant mob.
Granted, if the half-red responded with a blast of his breath weapon, everyone who survived would probably find somewhere else to be, ambling away at 60ft. per round. For a good example of how this mentality would work, try reading Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett - he presents a realistic, if cynical, view of what would happen if a dragon few into town and incinerated the newly crowned king at the coronation.
One other thing you note, the town's size would determine their reaction. A town with a population of 50 people is much less likely to try and mob the monster than one with a population of 450, while in a metropolis, the average person won't care about the monster as long as it doesn't live on there street. Of course, the larger the town, the stronger (read: more numerous) the guards and the more active (read: more numerous) the priesthood of the various good aligned deities, who might take umbrage to a foul creature walking into town. Also, in a town run by even the most enlightened despot, a monstrous character might be asked to go along with the guard and spend some time in the custody, and this would literally be 'for their own protection.' - if a creature is held by the guard for a couple of weeks, and the guards slowly let everyone know it is there and it has been tested by the clergy of Pelor, who have deemed it harmless, then the townsfolk would be more willing to accept it, although they would still be wary.
Instead of a tank, try to put a more human face on the modern example. A person walks into your town obviously strapped with explosives, or wearing heavy body armor and carrying a powerful rifle. In the case of the medusa or troll these weapons are built into their body so they don't have an option to put them away, but the destructive potential and amount of fear generated would be the same. Would you want to sit in a bar and drink with someone who could kill you with a glance or a flick of his wrist? If he gets out of control, there is nothing you could do to stop him from killing you. You wouldn't want to tick him off, but any allowances made for him would be caused by fear.
To make things worse, the person looks like someone you have seen on the news or heard about on the radio (the modern bard) who is a serial killer, violent bank robber, terrorist, etc. Sure, it's possible that this person won't kill you... but I sure as hell would not stay around and take that chance.
The same in D&D, but worse. Their only media is Bards. And bards do not seek to tell the truth, they seek to tell a good story.
It's insulting for bards ! Don't you think that you can replace the word "bards" by "journalists?"
Look: "Their only media is journalists. And journalists do not seek to tell the truth, they seek to tell a good story (scoop)."
I don't think many things have changed since the middle-age. We, humans, kill for "races" when there's only one race, kill when we decide that a culture is judged too different and enough militarily weak to be attacked, kill by simple instinct of property, and so on…
The fact is that I believe that, even in a world with a lot of intelligent races, friendly or not, there will be humans, and a lot, to have still enough hate to stigmatize other humans for their cultures (nomad for example) or their skin color.
For the example of the monster coming into town, I think that a lot of people will prefer to die trying to destroy "the other" than to live with the idea that "the other" is still living in "their" world. That's sure that they will try any solution before, but the fear always lead to anger and hate.
Anger and hate always lead to stupidity.
I don't think that there are any town in any campaign that could be easily destroyed by a passing ogre or troll.
There are doubtless some, but not all that many. Even a Troll is only AC 16, with 63hp and Regeneration 5. Against weak town militia (mix of Warriors and Commoners/Experts), it's still in serious danger, thanks to simple probability.
Shooting a light crossbow from a window or atop a wall, one of the militiamen has a 1-in-3 chance of hitting for (incl. crits) an average of 5 points of damage. 5-10 militiamen means 2-3 hits per round means the Troll will fall unconscious after about 10 rounds of this, at which point it's not hard to keep hacking at it (CdG) while someone gets the oil. And even a thorp should be able to muster 5-10 men with light crossbows and a protected place for them to shoot from.
Something like a Fire Giant will be much tougher, of course. At AC 23, it'll be hit only on a 20, and its 142hp will require ~30 bolts to kill, making for a total of 600 attacks.
If there are 50 men in the town's militia and they all stay out of the giant's way as best they can, forcing it to kill them at 1 per round, they'll lose about a third of their number before they kill it.
Point is, even the weakest of militia with nothing but mundane simple weapons can present a reasonable defense against many powerful monsters, and the addition of a few cheap magic items in the armoury (bolts that cast Entangle on their impact point or Tanglefoot bags to slow down the monster, Bless items to aid everyone's attacks, oil of Magic Weapon for the bows of the best few archers, buckets of paint for invisible creatures, etc.) makes them that much more capable.
While D&D society isn't as insular or prejudiced as medieval societies were, since we're essentially playing modern-thinking characters in a modern-thinking "pseudo-medieval" world, sheer self-preservation is probably going to see the town's gates slammed shut and the walls bristling with armed men against any obvious threats.
Note, though, that as the size of a city (and hence its diversity) goes up, so does what constitutes an "obvious threat". While a small thorp or hamlet might fear being wiped out by a single Troll, a city of 10,000 people contains enough resources, experience, and powerful people that if a Troll started running amok, it'd be put down fairly quickly, and for that reason there'd be less worry about letting it inside the gates.
Why would there be mass amounts of lvl1 commoners around
Because Commoners are...common. They're the great unwashed masses of (demi)humanity, lacking the talent or training to achieve more. Basically, they're the narrative backdrop that draws a contrast with the greatness of the PCs.
If anything, I'd say a larger city is more likely to turn the monster away than the tiny town. They can actually defend themselves if a confrontation goes wrong, unlike the thorp. It's also important to consider the motivation of the person responding to or negotiating with the monster. If he lets the monster into the town, the blame would surely rest with him if something went wrong. If attempts to turn the monster away, how could he be blamed for a crazed beast assaulting the city watch?
If you (the GM) want to RP odd-looking characters being assumed innocent until proven guilty, that’s certainly okay. It’s your game. If the world is relatively pastoral and peaceful, that would certainly be reasonable. Or, alternately, if like one of my friends, you hew to 'old school' D&D precepts, that everybody but the players is Com1 or War1, and the captain of the guard might be War3 if he was really badass, then certainly these people would be leery of approaching an unknown opponent that might be CR 10 or so.
However, in my games, where gnoll attacks, and undead are reasonably common, anybody that has lived to about age 25 has probably had enough life experience to be at least a Com2. And every five or ten years is another Commoner level. You dont get that old without being able to at least take a hit. So about 1 person in 10 has a character class of some sort (albeit mostly fighter or rogue).
Also, if the NPCs DO live in a place where dragons, ghouls, doppelgangers, mind flayers, liches, leucrotta, ogre magi, and vampires are not only real, they are looking for dinner, they might be a little more suspicious than the produce manager at the Wal Mart. I know if a green hag plopped down in my town and started demanding babies for 'protection', I'd certainly want to be protected from something FIRST. Otherwise little Bobby (who was always so fleet of foot and quick) runs off to the Sheriff, or the large town fifteen miles away, and solicits for adventurers.
Giving that strange creature first hit before you decide they are evil is a pretty bad idea when first hit can consist of an AoE of some sort.
And this all ignores the existence of detect evil and detect lies, or even augury, which the village priest would hopefully be able to learn by the next day. Which should be enough for them not to kill you out of hand.
And in my mind, part of the cost of playing a really odd race (githzerai or half dragon or half troll for example) is that you accept you won’t be embraced everywhere you go. This gives adventurers a really great hook. The same player who thinks 99% of humanity should be monster kibble made a half troll barbarian. He played him for four or five adventures, and then retired him as the hero of the village he had spent those adventures defending. They cheered him as a hero by the end, and built him a house in the village, complete with widow woman to cook for him out of appreciation for avenging her son.
Sense and sensibility should probably take a backseat to what is fun. It is a game, after all
. As long as everyone enjoys it, a little inaccuracy or a little unrealistic tolerance won’t ruin anything.Where it gets interesting is that the party found a staging area from a nearby nation composed of varying savage races. They were a war party, one planning raids and assaults to determine the relative strength of the settlements and then try to overrun them. One of the guys in the party decided to try to help the people by warning them and stating that any creature like this could be a threat. The results were immediate, he did quite well in inciting fear, in several areas large lynch mobs formed and the groups dedicated to protecting these settlements ended up getting bogged down trying to stop the panic and chaos rather than preparing for an invasion, not to mention losing some of the better fighters that these places had due to panicked townspeople.
However if the Troll had a 18 in CHARISMA and a decent INT he might just convince the guard that he is not looking for trouble etc etc, now in a small village this might not apply, but in any town that you talk face to face with someone you would have a fair chance of getting in seeing as your CHA isnt horrible. As for keeping peace while your there, ditto, CHA would def help, you might make sure you avoid trouble or challenges etc, people might just take a liking to you and scold any trouble makers.
Lots of variables but IMHO I do believe Charisma should and would have a huge effect on most cases.
This is a good point. It is especially good with a powerful creature that is not actively evil. If a Red Dragon "adopts" a village and neither pillages it or kills people then it might actually end up as a good thing. Heck, it would be amazing to see the reaction of the party when they wander into a random village and discover the "sheriff" is a red dragon (and that, as a result, the local Orc tribes haven't been all that aggressive lately.)
Blue Dragon makes much more sense than red. It wouldn't be anywhere near a happy town if it was a red dragon. A blue would probably just be very, very strict and harsh. A red would likely abuse his power consistently. Both a red and a blue would also try to squeeze as much out of the town as possible. The blue would do it within the law and the red would do it by threat/tribute.
As for the original advice, I think it is great advice. A drow will likely be able to walk through a non elf settlement without becoming a target. A half dragon would be given a wide berth. (Especially half dragons that carry big nasty weapons.) Other monsters could live in a village. But this is mainly true for neutral monsters. The evil monsters typically hide within a village because they are evil and unwelcome.
It's also a world where the "fantastic" is much more prevalent than normal (real) society. So the villagers have likely had a string of monstrous/scary people come through their town over the years. They're probably still telling stories about the kind half dragon that saved Maryann from the trolls or the wyrmling brass dragon that lives on the outskirts of town and will talk your ear off if you let him.
As for the original advice, I think it is great advice. A drow will likely be able to walk through a non elf settlement without becoming a target. A half dragon would be given a wide berth. (Especially half dragons that carry big nasty weapons.) Other monsters could live in a village. But this is mainly true for neutral monsters. The evil monsters typically hide within a village because they are evil and unwelcome.
In my opinion the opposite would be more likely. A drow walking into a village would very soon become a target of a small mob/city guard because drow are an evil and despicable race (or at least most people believe that). The drow would have a hard time convincing the townsfolk not to attack him.
When a troll or worse walks into a village, the people will still hate it, but unless they have a sizeable force with good weapons no one would be crazy enough to bother the troll as a fight could mean the death of half of the community. People would most likely lock themselves into their homes and maybe select a unlucky person to go out and to try to find out what the troll wants.
The interaction between the troll and the village would be very limited as no one would talk to it (or can talk to it), but by behaving peacefully the troll might be able to convince the people that he means no harm. This of course would take a long time and some creativity to overcome their prejudice, but when the troll walks into the village once a month, grabs some chicken, drops a sack full of trade goods (best worth more than the chickens) and left the people might realize after a while that this troll isn't so bad like other trolls. In conclusion, the obviously stronger the monster is (levels don't count, but fame does) and the weaker the community the more likely it is that the monster won't be attacked.
Scary or monstrous PCs should not be mobbed when they walk into town. Because, if your world is the sort of place where scary or monstrous beings would be mobbed, you should not allow scary or monstrous PCs.
In my opinion the opposite would be more likely. A drow walking into a village would very soon become a target of a small mob/city guard because drow are an evil and despicable race (or at least most people believe that). The drow would have a hard time convincing the townsfolk not to attack him.
When a troll or worse walks into a village, the people will still hate it, but unless they have a sizeable force with good weapons no one would be crazy enough to bother the troll as a fight could mean the death of half of the community. People would most likely lock themselves into their homes and maybe select a unlucky person to go out and to try to find out what the troll wants.
The interaction between the troll and the village would be very limited as no one would talk to it (or can talk to it), but by behaving peacefully the troll might be able to convince the people that he means no harm. This of course would take a long time and some creativity to overcome their prejudice, but when the troll walks into the village once a month, grabs some chicken, drops a sack full of trade goods (best worth more than the chickens) and left the people might realize after a while that this troll isn't so bad like other trolls. In conclusion, the obviously stronger the monster is (levels don't count, but fame does) and the weaker the community the more likely it is that the monster won't be attacked.
I wasn't using drow as an example. (Admittedly, there shouldn't be that many drow PCs because drow are that hated in the D&D worlds.) I was using half dragons, which are usually done on a case by case basis. (Factoring in both community and character into the equation.)
Also, keep in mind that a monstrous PC will walk into most towns with a party to vouch for him. But yes, they will still encounter prejudice. (Dragon Whelp, Scaly Butt, Monster, Obakemono (Japanese for monster), mothers dragging curious children away, watch "escort" through town, shopkeepers refusing to do business with him, etc.)
From what has been posted, even an Exalted Vow Of Poverty drow would be distrusted in the D&D worlds.
Let's say that the troll in question isn't too dumb (int 8) and has better than average wisdom (14 - 16). If it wanted to move into town, it may figure that going after the bandits/goblins/whatever might be a good idea. A troll walking into town may not get mobbed, but people aren't going to like it. A troll walking into town who took care of the local bugbear bandits is probably going to get a bit more consideration.
In short, towns that accept monstrous races will simply out-compete hostile towns, unless the countryside is plagued with a very specific type of monster. (One that can be readily detected, isn't too bright, can be defeated by a town if they get in the first shot, and won't co-operate with the towns.)
A troll devours people for breakfast. A medusa transforms a person into stone with a single look. Both of them are evil-aligned (as in, they want to be mean and harm others for the simple fun of it). How likely is it that townsfolk would accept those walking bombs to remain in their town, really? Only if their lives depend on it. So let's say that, after a short consideration, they believe that they would all be killed if they tried to send those monsters away, then what would they do? They would ask the local authorities to take care of it, i.e. the army or militia or the temple of their local deity. I mean, a medusa or a troll... we're not talking about Joe Blow that looks a bit weird, here. These are *killing machines*!
I do not disagree with what you've said, but it seems that every issue regarding monstrous PCs is entirely dependent on the world they inhabit. It's really up to the DM whether or not these monstrous creatures are evil-aligned; some DMs ignore alignment rules entirely.
Because the real world doesn't include any races or species that are inherently evil, it is hard to discern what type of treatment they should receive in-game. Cougars occasionally attack people in small wooded towns, such as my own. This does not mean that these creatures are evil--they attack out of necessity. It could be argued that no unintelligent creature is capable of evil, since every unintelligent creature on earth is only violent out of imperative (defensive reaction, killing for food, etc.) Pretty much everything an organism does is for a reason. In relation to D&D, this is, of course, just a realistic perspective.
It is very well possible -and likely the norm- for a campaign setting to involve inherently evil creatures, which in essence makes playability a lot easier: Conflict comes about because one group of creatures is evil, while the other is good/neutral/weaker. If a Campaign Setting exists without some sort of an evil force, all dangerous encounters would have to be explained in detail, and be based on clashing cultural views, human-like vices, natural defensive acts, basic need for food, etc.This can either add some flavor to every encounter, or make things tedious. It all boils down to what type of world you want to run. As a side-note, most PCs in certain hack and slash campaigns could easily be described as "killing machines." :P
I do not disagree with what you've said, but it seems that every issue regarding monstrous PCs is entirely dependent on the world they inhabit. It's really up to the DM whether or not these monstrous creatures are evil-aligned; some DMs ignore alignment rules entirely.
Sure, if trolls and medusa are not notoriously evil, then they probably would not get mobbed. My basic assumption is that they are notoriously evil. I mean, a creature that turns you to stone as soon as you look at her, kinda leaves a bad first impression, doesn't it?
I of course agree that a game world can be built where monsters are not necessarily mobbed since they aren’t necessarily evil - but if such is the case, then this premise should be stated at the outset. I was basing my assumptions on the usual alignment and aggressiveness of creatures.
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A very important point, but also heavily based on circumstance. In most cases, drow are known for their evil society where they eat children and burn things at random. Since they bleed like a human and have less hp on average, in many instances a mob would be able to easily kill him/her, or at the very least chase him out of town and pray he doesn't come back in the night to smite them all.
In the case of trolls, they are known to be less discriminating that goats as to what they will eat, and fresh meats are a high priority. The problem is that a troll is MUCH more violent and aggressive, stronger and more durable. A single troll stands a good chance of wiping out a farming community, and for this reason due to its notoriety in this theoretical township, I doubt many if anyone is going to throw the first stone.
And
A common person would know that a troll is pretty much immune to weapons, it can rip a strong man or even horse in half. That's a pretty formidable combination. In a place with a lot of troll raids (in Greyhawk, a settlement in the Theocracy of the Pale near the Troll Fens) locals will have adapted to the environment. In LG, it is a joke that you can tell the Pale adventurers because they all have cold weather clothing, even in the desert, and they all carry silly amounts of oil flasks. The Prelatal army standard soldier load is 10 flasks, and their heavy infantry have specific troll-killing tactics involving tower shields, bait and run and small amounts of alchemy fire and large amounts of oil. (the archer squads have an easier time).
The average Pale citizen might have oil in the house but wouldn't seriously attempt to battle a troll. That's a task beyond even a mob equipped with fire, the casualties suffered in success wouldn't be worth it.
And
But we are not talking about Drows and Orcs, things a normally trained human can defeat with a reasonably chance. We are talking about trolls or worse, creatures which are much more powerful than a human. A village trying to attack even one of them will have horrendous losses or will even be destroyed completely. Even someone with less than normal intelligence and wisdom will recognize that those are no creatures which should be attacked except when you have a death wish.
And
Also an Ogre is the weakest thing discussed here. Other monsters like a troll or medusa can kill the whole militia. Are people really that xenophobic to take the risk? Such troublemakers tend to pick on someone who is weaker than himself or the group they are in and Ogre, Troll or Medusa certainly isn't. It isn't a question if D&D people are nicer than in the real world. It is a question if those people are stupid enough to attack something they can't defeat or can only defeat with enormous losses.
And
And no, they can't hope to kill it themselves,
And
Haole, you fail to take in account that the town is nearly defenseless against the monster. When an evil monster comes to a town the people certainly won't attack because they know fully well that they have no chance to kill it or can only kill it with heavy losses. Attacking is simply not an option. The only options they have is to run, to hide or to negotiate.
In the case of trolls, they are known to be less discriminating that goats as to what they will eat, and fresh meats are a high priority. The problem is that a troll is MUCH more violent and aggressive, stronger and more durable. A single troll stands a good chance of wiping out a farming community, and for this reason due to its notoriety in this theoretical township, I doubt many if anyone is going to throw the first stone.
And
A common person would know that a troll is pretty much immune to weapons, it can rip a strong man or even horse in half. That's a pretty formidable combination. In a place with a lot of troll raids (in Greyhawk, a settlement in the Theocracy of the Pale near the Troll Fens) locals will have adapted to the environment. In LG, it is a joke that you can tell the Pale adventurers because they all have cold weather clothing, even in the desert, and they all carry silly amounts of oil flasks. The Prelatal army standard soldier load is 10 flasks, and their heavy infantry have specific troll-killing tactics involving tower shields, bait and run and small amounts of alchemy fire and large amounts of oil. (the archer squads have an easier time).
The average Pale citizen might have oil in the house but wouldn't seriously attempt to battle a troll. That's a task beyond even a mob equipped with fire, the casualties suffered in success wouldn't be worth it.
And
But we are not talking about Drows and Orcs, things a normally trained human can defeat with a reasonably chance. We are talking about trolls or worse, creatures which are much more powerful than a human. A village trying to attack even one of them will have horrendous losses or will even be destroyed completely. Even someone with less than normal intelligence and wisdom will recognize that those are no creatures which should be attacked except when you have a death wish.
And
Also an Ogre is the weakest thing discussed here. Other monsters like a troll or medusa can kill the whole militia. Are people really that xenophobic to take the risk? Such troublemakers tend to pick on someone who is weaker than himself or the group they are in and Ogre, Troll or Medusa certainly isn't. It isn't a question if D&D people are nicer than in the real world. It is a question if those people are stupid enough to attack something they can't defeat or can only defeat with enormous losses.
And
And no, they can't hope to kill it themselves,
And
Haole, you fail to take in account that the town is nearly defenseless against the monster. When an evil monster comes to a town the people certainly won't attack because they know fully well that they have no chance to kill it or can only kill it with heavy losses. Attacking is simply not an option. The only options they have is to run, to hide or to negotiate.
Sure, if trolls and medusa are not notoriously evil, then they probably would not get mobbed. My basic assumption is that they are notoriously evil. I mean, a creature that turns you to stone as soon as you look at her, kinda leaves a bad first impression, doesn't it?
That depends on if the Medusa wears a veil or has the appropriate feat.
I of course agree that a game world can be built where monsters are not necessarily mobbed since they aren’t necessarily evil - but if such is the case, then this premise should be stated at the outset. I was basing my assumptions on the usual alignment and aggressiveness of creatures.
Even in these cases, a friendly monster can gain a measure of acceptance. The thing to remember is that PHB races are weak. They start at level 1, and they have to do things to learn and gain exp to raise in power (i.e. level). Trolls, medusas, and other monster races start out more powerful simply by being there, and thus, are likely to be far more powerful than anyone in the average town. Consider: the average village probably doesn't have much in the way of defense beyond probably lvl 5 warriors and/or adepts. A troll (an ECL 12 creature) walks into town (with an appropriate "gift" of something causing local trouble), and wants to move into this town. Now, there's going to be a lot of bias, and a lot of hate, but (especially if timed right -- a troll might not be that canny, but a mind flayer would be, say by saving the town from some low level raiders who are easy for it to roast, being ECL 15, but hard for the townsfolk, who have, at best, the lvl 5 warrior on average) the creature probably can gain a foot hold to establish better relations.
In larger cities of course there is a militia to handle such things. There the monster would have no chance, but in small villages without trained and equipped soldiers people are very likely to overlook things as long as they stay alive.
1d6 club
1d6 pitchfork (no reach, comparable to a short spear)
1d3 rock (less than what a sling would do, certainly not as much as a greatsword)
1d4 +1 fire torch (weaker club with a bit of fire)
Second, how can all those commoners engage in melee? Even if the pitchforks are ranged weapons only 20 commoners can attack (8 with clubs, 12 with pitchforks). If the pitchforks are no reach weapons this number drops to 8 melee attacks each round.
Third, you ignored all penalties the townsfolk would have do to blocking each others line of sight/giving cover to the troll. You see, the casualties would be much more than in your example.
Also even 6 casualties out of 43 is nearly 14%, or in other words, a huge blow to the overall population. No on would be willing to sacrifice so many people if it isn't necessary, especially not an untrained commoner. Why don't you see people in a bank rushing the lone robber with a gun? Because of fear and this fear is exactly what will keep the commoners from attacking as long as it is unclear if the troll is hostile.
Mob mentality and racism is nearly always directed against something weaker who can't defend itself, not against something stronger who can kill a tenth of the mob easily and might take offense from the racism and start killing.
The interaction between the troll and the village would be very limited as no one would talk to it (or can talk to it), but by behaving peacefully the troll might be able to convince the people that he means no harm. This of course would take a long time and some creativity to overcome their prejudice, but when the troll walks into the village once a month, grabs some chicken, drops a sack full of trade goods (best worth more than the chickens) and left the people might realize after a while that this troll isn't so bad like other trolls. In conclusion, the obviously stronger the monster is (levels don't count, but fame does) and the weaker the community the more likely it is that the monster won't be attacked.
Just note that a chicken costs only 2cp so a troll wouldn't have to drop a sack.
People are definitely afraid of the unknown. They learn from experience and if something is known to be dangerous, they will be afraid of it. But people are also very, very curious. This is part of the reason why people rubberneck. It’s not just people. Monkeys will flee a human or other dangerous creature, but if it doesn't do anything dangerous, they will creep back to investigate.
So, I think a town's reaction (assuming they are not well armed enough to confidently attack on sight) to a troll PC will depend a great deal on what the troll does. Assuming the troll walks calmly into town and doesn't hurt anyone, or act in an aggressive fashion (or what seems aggressive), people will probably lock their doors and hide. But if the troll continues to sit in the town square, minding its own business, they will eventually unlock their doors and peer out. Assuming the troll remains unthreatening (for a troll) they might even get closer to get a good look. If the troll can talk, this is when he can ask where the outhouse is. Depending on the general outlook of the villagers at this point, this might be so astounding that they will actually tell him. Will the character be accepted right away? No. Welcome to stay? No. But peaceful behavior and people's natural curiosity will probably go along way.
Look at it like this. A big, mangy, mean looking dog shows up in your backyard. You go inside the house and call the ASPCA (read: the town guard). But the ASPCA is busy and can't come right away. Meanwhile, the big mean looking dog is sitting out there and wagging its tail. Pretty soon you probably open your door to take a better look at it, and if the dog continues to act friendly, you might throw it an old soup bone.
What if it was something really strange, like a lion? You bolt into your house and lock the door. You definitely call the ASPCA, the cops, and probably the national guard. While you are waiting for help to arrive, the lion sits up on its hind legs and begs. It rolls around on its back. It rubs up against your trees. Now assume help doesn't show up, or, as in some fantasy worlds, help can't handle a lion either. Eventually, if the lion doesn't growl at you, stalk you, eat your housecat, or something unpleasant, you're going to go out there. What choice to you have? It isn't ACTING dangerous and you have things to do. You might yell at it or throw things at it, but if its persistent enough, well . . . Hell, throw the lion a soup bone. Maybe it’s friendly!
Meanwhile, ordinary, productive members of society might think of solving problems with methods that don't involve terms like "great cleave," "smite," "phantasmal killer," or "flanking." Talking about how a group of commoners with clubs and pitchforks, assuming the pitchforks have reach, can surround a troll with 8 of them in 5 foot reach of the troll and 16 of them in 10 foot reach with pitchforks treats commoners as if they were adventurers -- i.e., socially dysfunctional, violence prone, adamantine-clad butchers -- when they aren't. While adventurers are lucky if they can remember the name of the town they're in, these people have lived there their whole lives, and have networks that they know.
If they want a troll to leave, maybe they give him a quest to go retrieve the Silver Grail from the Dungeons of Doom, and tell him, "well, some puny human adventurers almost made it, but you're made of much tougher stuff, so surely you can do it." If the troll doesn't take the bait, maybe they tell him about a well-paying job opportunity in the troll division of the royal army. If the troll starts a bakery, maybe they develop a quiet agreement not to buy from him.
Look at it like this. A big, mangy, mean looking dog shows up in your backyard. You go inside the house and call the ASPCA (read: the town guard). But the ASPCA is busy and can't come right away. Meanwhile, the big mean looking dog is sitting out there and wagging its tail. Pretty soon you probably open your door to take a better look at it, and if the dog continues to act friendly, you might throw it an old soup bone.
Try a Grizzly sitting in your backyard, and you're waiting for the Ranger to arrive. Unless you are an imbecile, no matter how "nice" the grizzly may seem you stay inside. Sure there exists the off chance it could be an escaped Zoo specimen, but winning the lottery on a ticket you find on the ground is more likely. Presuming that you actually live in a region where grizzlies are found. At your time share in Honolulu the chance a grizzly is escaped from some act is much higher than in the backyard of your home five miles Southeast of St Michael Alaska (just outside the Yukon Delta National Wildlife Reserve).
In fact, unless you are playing in Eberron, or some other artificial world where even the peasants in an isolated hamlet are more cosmopolitan than the travelers in an Italian mercantile city, even Elves, Dwarves etc. will face discrimination and even persecution in human villages and towns. Outsiders are viewed as dangerous, different, and undesirable by the vast majority of people throughout the pre-industrial period. Changing that facet of human nature stretches the limits of believability beyond anything I would accept.
Originally posted by OravennasBrother
Try a Grizzly sitting in your backyard, and you're waiting for the Ranger to arrive. Unless you are an imbecile, no matter how "nice" the grizzly may seem you stay inside. Sure there exists the off chance it could be an escaped Zoo specimen, but winning the lottery on a ticket you find on the ground is more likely. Presuming that you actually live in a region where grizzlies are found. At your time share in Honolulu the chance a grizzly is escaped from some act is much higher than in the backyard of your home five miles Southeast of St Michael Alaska (just outside the Yukon Delta National Wildlife Reserve).
Although it might seem to be the sensible thing to stay inside, I would say it would all depend on how long it will take the ranger to arrive, and how unusual the Grizzly's behavior is. (And you're right, how unusual a Grizzly itself is). If the Ranger's aren't showing up for a week, you're going to have to deal with that bear somehow. If the Grizzly is snarling, rampaging around, and generally making a threat of itself, you're going to try and drive it off, or get the neighbors to help you drive it off. if the Grizzly is balancing on a set of boxes and trying to balance a ball on its nose, you might just poke your head out to see what its doing. If its just lying there, making mournful noises, you just might check it out too. People are curious by nature, especially when the danger doesn't seem immediate or when enough time has passed that they aren't as startled and afraid anymore
What happens to the Grizzly, or the Troll, depends on a lot of things:
1) How the 'monster' acts
2) Whether there is anyone around who can easily drive off/kill the 'monster'
3) How much experience the townspeople have with monsters like this one, and how bad that experience is (People may well react better to something they've never seen before than something that is known to eat their children and carry off their women and/or sheep)
4) How the monster looks . . . is it repulsive? Heavily harmed? Dressed in a tutu? Carrying the corpse of Uncle Bob? Balancing a ball on its nose? Repeatedly asking in broken Common where to buy a loaf of bread? Holding out some coins with which to buy a loaf of bread? Helping a kitten out of a tree?
5) The personality and culture of the townsfolk in question: Are they xenophobic? Very tolerant? Pious? (and if so, which faith?) Are they afraid of magic?
6) How likely it is that someone will show up soon to deal with the 'monster'
7) Is anyone with the monster, and how harmless do they look? Do they look like they have it under control? Do THEY look like they will eat your children and steal your sheep?
The point that I was trying to make is that if the 'monster' acts harmless enough, braver souls will probably eventually check it out, just to find out what the hell it's doing. Especially if it doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. Of course, the braver souls might also fashion a improvised bomb out of a bottle of liquor and an old rag . . .
In terms of monstrous PCs, when I have one in my game, I generally take into a account all the factors: How is the PC acting, how are the other PCs acting, what is really unusual about the situation (a troll walking into town in broad daylight, alone, wearing a suit of shiny chainmail and looking confused as opposed to a troll sneaking up at night, wearing skins or nothing at all, carrying a club and snarling), and the character of the town in question.
Monstrous PCs are fun, but they create more work for both the player and the DM. The DM has to think a lot more about how the PC interacts with the world, and the PC, if they want to be accepted, has to think a lot harder about how to act. They might never be welcome, but they can usually avoid being lynched. The price I extract from players who want to play monstrous PCs is roleplaying effort, as well as a promise not to play the character in such a way that it will bring the game to a screeching halt.
.Try a Grizzly sitting in your backyard, and you're waiting for the Ranger to arrive. Unless you are an imbecile, no matter how "nice" the grizzly may seem you stay inside.
Yes, you wouldn't go out. But neither would you try to attack the grizzly unless you have a high powered gun with you.
Back to the fantasy scenario. A village normally has no weapon to drive of a troll and the ranger (= adventurers) is unlikely to arrive anytime soon except by coincidence. So the only options they have is staying inside till the troll leaves or trying to find out if the troll might be harmless.
Outsiders are viewed as dangerous, different, and undesirable by the vast majority of people throughout the pre-industrial period. Changing that facet of human nature stretches the limits of believability beyond anything I would accept.
D&D has one very big difference between the real world; the differences are real. As I alluded to in my earlier example, witch burnings only work when the witch you're burning actually isn't a witch, or at least isn't a witch above fifth level.
It's a prisoner's dilemma situation. If you mob every strange, possibly hostile monster to go into town, you'll end up wasting resources when the orcish hordes or bandit chief shows up. Conversely, if you attempt to placate violent monsters (human or otherwise), you'll just get more violent monsters. According to game theory, at least, the optimal situation for surviving in a D&D world is to treat every incoming monster with cautious politeness, and not to strike the first blow.
Obviously, all of this posits a universe in which half-dragons and minotaurs wandering into towns are at least fairly common. If a monster never shows up in a town, it doesn't matter what the townsfolk think of monsters. Also, in order to get this strong incentive to shift, you actually need to be in a fairly hostile area. A town in an area frequently plagued by monsters may seek to enlist a monster of their own, and even if trolls are horrible beasts, Gra-luk over there's fine folk, as long as you keep him fed, and darn useful when bandits come to the village.
Basically, I argue that, in the D&D-verse, stupid discrimination can get you killed a whole lot more easily than in the real world, and as such is much less likely to take place.
Can anyone tell me the difference?
I am currently playing a halfling who has some reptilian features (his dragon wings being one of those) and is being referred to as "devil-spawn" by a fellow party member. I suffer the misfortune of being discriminated upon for looking like a monster, not only from fellow party members but also from NPCs, I see that as something I have brought upon myself and I actually enjoy it.
Bottomline: Either mob them or don't. Simple as that really.
Now, given that in most D&D worlds there are dozens or even hundreds of intelligent species, these may seem paltry by comparison, but when adventurers are going through a dungeon, they don't stop to ask the cannon-fodder (Orcs, Kobolds, Goblins, Ogres, or what-have-you) "Hey, which way to the Lich's room?" They just go hacking and blasting their way through. By the same token, if a half-dozen heavily-armed Ogres come up to the town wall (an all-Ogre PC party), the town guard isn't gonna think "Great, a team of adventurers!" so much as "We're under attack! Sound the alarm!"
The only problem with animal analogies is that bears and dogs can't communicate, which tends to complicate things. Having a grizzly in your back yard is one thing; having one in your back yard that says, "Hey, want to get a beer?" isn't quite so simple
It's at that point that you would probably assume that there was something highly hallucinogenic in the water.
Onto the main subject I think that it is largely hit or miss, much of it also has to do with how safe the people feel in relation to it. In On the Origin of PCs The comment is made, "You're only doing this because I'm small, if I was a troll and killed all those people you'd be all like 'let him go, we don't want to get him angry'"
The idea being that if something is big enough to smack around the town most people aren't going to try to deal with it or if they do they most likely get squashed. Maybe those few that do are those that will eventually become adventurers. Parleying does work and the party has luckily learned that, it hasn't always worked, (At one point a war troll decided that it wanted to eat the kobold, if they let him they could pass the war trolls unharmed, which made the party decide to rally and protect their friend, survival be damned) but they also realize that trying to battle every single creature can be very dangerous, very worrisome business.
Add to that the odds of a local expert actually HAVING the appropriate knowledge skills, and the odds are that the local townspeople won't know anything about the monsters other than that they should be afraid.
"...if that same troll walked into a village that hadn't been attacked by trolls recently, held up a sack that clinked like coinage, and said "Which way tavern?", would you be the first to attack it, or would you point it on its way and hope like hell it left ... .
Firstly, this quote cracked me up.
Secondly, it depends on the game world.
Thirdly, smelly-rotting-nasty-asss-trollishness would likely not be accepted anywhere. Well most places, anyway.
Fourthly, fantasy worlds must vary by definition.
Fifthly, mixed race villages should be more likely to accept weirdness.
Sixthly, I had to add something to this thread.
Seventhly, everyone individually is brilliant/kind/reasonable etc,--but packs of humans can be hyena-like and I doubt other races of humanoids would be different. But I don't really know what elves or dwarves would be like so I have to eventually come to the conclusion that for D&D races to be different then they have to really be different. Mixed race villages must accept weirdness. Passive trolls or reclusive medusi that don't cause problems would eventually be accepted just as any other foreigner is usually accepted in the real world. Of course, foreigners are usually lined up and shot first (along with teachers and preachers) when the government changes.
All right, so my point is mixed.
Generally speaking, when an army was sent to invade a foreign area but was crushed, the survivors would say there were monsters there. It was better for their honor than saying they were crushed by men with better weapons and tactics! For example, a Viking town that was raided by another army would say they have been attacked by mighty trolls, to save their honor.
But in the D&D world, trolls are not just an invention, they are real creatures. The townsfolk is no longer xenophobic enough to associate strangers to an evil god, they accept everyone. So much, they might even accept a troll in their town!
Village: people will likely grab their families and valuables and head for the hills, unless they know there is a "hero" in the village who has defended them before. In that case, they'll run to get said "hero" and then run home and board up the doors and windows.
Town: likely a militia will form and make some show of arms. An orc wandering into a town (obviously this orc is suicidal) would be met with a party of 15-20 men with pitchforks, chased, and skewered. Mostly people would just flee from a dragon wandering into town, unless the general public has knowledge of said dragon species for some reason (perhaps the dragon fried a bunch of marauding orcs and is now the town's "hero").
City: militia or army will be quickly notified, and monster will be hunted down and exterminated, unless it is very powerful, in which case evacuation plans and proper city defenses would be initiated.
In 1645, 200 "Shropshire Foot" mutinied through lack of pay and refused to march to besiege Dudley Castle. The commander of the force thought it best to leave them, take the forces he had and start the siege.
The following day the Shropshires decided that they were probably going to all get hung for mutiny so to try and avoid this they set out to catch up with the main force. However they went (for 30 miles) via every pub and inn along the route, thereby completing possibly the longest pub crawl in military history.
On their merry way (about 10 miles in) they stopped to ask a local where the next drinking hole was. He replied something witty along the lines of "why do you want to know" and they shot him.
Point is--you don't need a mob for the locals to act dumb. Possibly being a bit harsh on the local, but he died so couldn't leave HIS side of the story (history being written by the survivors).
Troll: Me troll. Which way [tavern, alehouse or inn]? *Jingles purse*
Commoner: It's right this way [sir or madam], make sure to try the [most expensive item]. You should also stop by my [shop] for a [good or service], they're the best damn [good or service] in [town].
It also works well when your PCs tool up to smash an orc settlement, only to find the orcs trying to flog them the same kit at rock-bottom prices. Or barbarians invading a city, only to end up slightly confused as to why they left with only a stuffed purple donkey and a novelty sombrero.
Money makes the world go round, at least if the world's got dragons in it.
I've used this to some extent in my current campaign. The party has more than once run into a duo of adventurers who stand out completely. One is a thrikreen from far outside the campaign area who is physically incapable of speaking any human tongue (although he understands the local Common). His name is Buzzclick. The other looks like an extremely large, ugly human, but is far too smart and personable to be a half-ogre. The party speculates he might be half annis. He is the spokesperson of the pair and communicates with Buzzclick through a form of drumming (he uses his own breastplate). Individually, either one of them is formidable, but would quickly be run out of just about any town. Together, most people are too intimidated and/or boggled by the incongruous pairing to give them much trouble, although they do tend to find that rooms are scarce or unavailable. They are not friends or enemies of the PCs - more like neutral rivals. They have a reputation among people who keep track of such things of being extremely reliable, tough, and unburdened with scruples about the kinds of jobs they take. They do take care to avoid trouble in town. The party knows they've taken on "good" missions and strongly suspects they've taken on the other sort as well. All the PCs figure that someday they'll probably end up fighting the two, but they also figure they might work alongside them at some point first.
These two are nowhere near typical for my campaign, which is humanocentric to the point that halflings don't exist, most people have seen so few dwarves they're just mistaken for big gnomes, and elves are known but feared almost as much as drow are in other campaigns, albeit for completely different reasons (PC elves would face just the problems that this thread is about). I don't plan on having lots of really strange creatures wandering about. But the Odd Couple do add something. They are not the exception that proves the rule; they are the exception that reminds the players that the rule exists, as otherwise it would be taken for granted.
The only problem with animal analogies is that bears and dogs can't communicate, which tends to complicate things. Having a grizzly in your back yard is one thing; having one in your back yard that says, "Hey, want to get a beer?" isn't quite so simple
Another reason to NOT let strange intelligent creatures into a town. They could well be spies for others of "Their Kind" and hence represent a serious security threat. Sure intelligent creatures can talk, but have you ever heard the term "Fifth Column"?
I'm not making any kind of argument about the goodness or the morality of NPCs letting NPCs of other races live in peace. I'm just saying that the villages who don't will eventually try to run Ront Iron-Roar out of town, and be subsequently pillaged single-handedly, while the villages that accept all races will not only get props from the forces of Goodness, but also may eventually accumulate powerful defenders from the ranks of civilized monsters that are sick of discrimination. People will be good if there's something in it for them, and the alternative is death.
Also, remember that given that a kobold sorceror10 can inflict more ruin on a village than any number of ferocious beasts, and that you can't tell Meepo the kobold expert1 from his big brother Pun-Pun on sight, you'd also expect that after the first few centuries of wizards in non-runic robes, barefoot and seemingly-unarmed high-level monks with begging bowls, and the odd powerful outsider or god hanging around in disguise, villages that throw rotten things at strangers and tell them to clear off or they'll be hanged would find at least one such individual who would make them (briefly) regret it.
And even if they don't, if they try it on the PCs, then they will have found exactly such an individual.
Originally Posted by Objulen
The only problem with animal analogies is that bears and dogs can't communicate, which tends to complicate things. Having a grizzly in your back yard is one thing; having one in your back yard that says, "Hey, want to get a beer?" isn't quite so simple
.
First: We have these in Australia, except they're Polar Bears not Grizzlys, and I'd be surprised it said "Beer" and not "Rum"
Moving on:
I don't think there is a whole lot of new ground I can cover, but I thought this thread was really interesting, and certainly presented a wide range of options for dealing with monstrous races. I think the "average" village, if such a thing exists, would probably just run away and hide in their homes from a monster, and if it insisted on "moving in" would ambush it in it's sleep at the first sign something bad was going to happen.
I think it's possible that the less evil the monster is, the more likely it is to get into trouble. Consider this example. If a medusa (to pick an example not really at random) walks into town and starts petrifying people, most will run away, and the medusa will be left alone with some new statues - no worries.
If the medusa really wants to be friendly, a group might gather to see what's going on. At this point, once accusations and calls to run the beast out of town start, the monster has a problem. If it reacts violently, it ends up in the same situation as above (or dead) and the survivors tell themselves they were right, because the monster turned on them (Mobs never like to accept blame).
If the medusa does nothing, I rather think this will encourage the mob, they'll think the creature is a coward and a pushover, and be more willing to attack it. If the monster is really determined, it might die or run away without inflicting any harm, and this will prove the crowd right. They could take it after all, and they saved their village from the threat.
This all assumes a group of fairly uneducated, untravelled villagers, they probably know what it is, but they have no experience beyond stories told by adventurers that have fought them before. In a more cosmopolitan setting, things would probably be different.
Another reason to NOT let strange intelligent creatures into a town. They could well be spies for others of "Their Kind" and hence represent a serious security threat. Sure intelligent creatures can talk, but have you ever heard the term "Fifth Column"?
That all depends on the paranoia of the community in question, in relation to its ability to actually drive said creature out. It also depends on the creature in question. Most trolls aren't organized or intelligent enough to start a spy network.
Further, if the presence of an intelligent creature is questioned, there are always magical means to determine its motives (not that it will necessarily submit to such scrutiny, but it's an option). This is nothing more than a plot twist -- is the creature really there to help, or live in peace? Or is it part of some sinister plot?
And I think you overestimate the likeliness that there will be a mob. People only create mobs when they either have no choice or are sure to win. But against such a monster even a mob would have no chance. So it is far more likely that the villagers will hide or flee. They certainly won't attack.
• Alignment
• Trade
• Law
• Religion
• Culture
• Politics
Some settings, or DMs, ignore alignment (heck no detect evil, no detect lie, and no talk with the dead make for a mystery). Some settings have city-states of trolls. Killing a merchant troll may be bad for trade. Killing a troll person (if they are considered a person) without provocation would be against the law. There may be a pantheon with a troll god who is like a brother to the local human god. Mayhap the local townsfolk have a troll that plows there fields for room, and board . . . one more would be grand. This troll seeking trade may be one of many that drew the short straw.
Essentially it depends on the setting, and DM.
Also, remember that given that a kobold sorceror10 can inflict more ruin on a village than any number of ferocious beasts, and that you can't tell Meepo the kobold expert1 from his big brother Pun-Pun on sight, you'd also expect that after the first few centuries of wizards in non-runic robes, barefoot and seemingly-unarmed high-level monks with begging bowls, and the odd powerful outsider or god hanging around in disguise, villages that throw rotten things at strangers and tell them to clear off or they'll be hanged would find at least one such individual who would make them (briefly) regret it.
Many of the ancient world hospitality rules (which tended to be some of the strongest ethical rules) had cautionary tales associated with them about some god or other who showed up looking humble and punished those who violated hospitality and rewarded those who showed it.
This is a meme that is very human. In a world where powerful beings travel disguised, being polite to everyone at first is a damn good policy, and will likely become part of the cultural ethos.
"Wait, Gorthon, why are we going to raid these caves infested with ogres? The last town we were in had that ogre blacksmith, should we kill ogres?"
"You're right. I guess we will move on to the bluffs. I heard that there was a Naga that had a tribe of hobgoblins serving it."
"But what if the hobgoblins want to serve it and they are happy there?"
"Fine, I am just going home to become a cooper then."
Sure makes it hard to loot dungeons if you place real world morality on things.
So the answer to why do people mob monsters? Because they see a credible threat to this creature, and they have the power to expel him through violence. If the motive lacks anything but prejudice and ignorance, then a mob will dissolve quickly.
But if the creature proves to be a formidable, unreasonable threat, then the logical wheels will turn, and people will organize to first bargain, and then fight. How do you think revolutions and other armed uprisings occur against established military powers? If there is no way to live but to fight, many people will choose to fight. Of course, if flight or subjugation is an option, that may be the appropriate course of action, depending on the education of the people.
(IE, with most modern industrial nationalist countries, many people have been patriotically trained to fight against foreign invaders.)
Just look at what your party does when they see a lone Goblin or Kobold standing out the front of some cave that they think might have treasure in it. They kill it! As quickly and as quietly as possible. AND THEY'RE LAWFUL GOOD!Now imagine what people back home would do if a Goblin or Kobold rocked up with some cash and said, "Gaebo no hurt, Gaebo your freind, Gaebo want live with you...Gaebo got gold?" (Can you say TWANG! goes the crossbow?)
Ok, first things first, they're not Lawful Good. What is says on their character sheets is irrelevant. If they just kill the green skinned people on site, they're some sort of Evil. Adventurers that put an end to the BBEG's plot of world domination are Good. Those that just kill random intelligent creatures and take their stuff are Evil. Most of them tend towards Neutral. They're just out to become rich and famous.
As for the OP's points, they're really well thought out and I've enjoyed the resulting discussion. If I was the tavern keeper is the hypothetical town, I'd be damn upset if an angry mob attacked my customers. "Have you any idea how much ale a Troll will put back? Stop harassing my customers and interfering with my business, you ignorant swine."
I would be concerned about merchants being unwilling to sell to them; priests being unwilling to heal / cure / raise them; the city guard treating them as "one of the usual suspects"; the fact that social skill checks will likely be at a disadvantage; few people, if anyone, will want to actually rent a room to such a "person"; cities that screen guests at the main gates will often simply not let them IN.
That said, only in the smallest town would an adequate response be a problem. Larger towns and cities in most settings will have a guard captain, high priest and perhaps a few volunteers who will be capable of posing a valid threat to most interlopers. If they could not, the town or city would not long survive.
All that said, one can overcome such obstacles. People can be convinced that you mean no harm, or even that you're a hero. Merchants will usually sell to anyone who is well known for bringing back thousands of gold at a shot from adventuring runs. And so on.
History has taught us one thing which I think the D&D game actually takes into account fairly well. Humans are one of the most adaptable creatures imaginable! We can learn to survive, nay thrive, in even the harshest of environments (natural or society). Therefore a band of humans that tries to coexist with trolls would most likely be eaten by trolls. So I think it's safe to assume that humans would NOT want to live with a troll if they could help it. (I mean look at all those teeth!)
Also I think its plain dumb to assume the troll wouldn't be attacked on sight or shortly after by some individuals. I know that a 1st level commoner should have no chance game wise against a troll nor should a group of them. BUT humans will find a way.
Look at history; shows of force only provoke invention from a diligent commoner. I think every revolution or famous despot has been overthrown despite that it was “impossible.”Unless there is more than one troll, his cause is hopeless. I think 20 men could take him and would do so with nets and ropes, or something. Sure they might lose a few but what are there options? Lose a few now or lose them all over time? Remember all those teeth? That's all I would worry about if I was the town blacksmith, big and strong and I had friends and family looking to me for help. Do I risk myself or do I risk them? No choice at all really for most. The blacksmith picks up his axe convincing two or three guys more, until it snowballs.
Now think about this...from the Troll's point of view. He has only himself to risk. If he takes a lucky hit from a villagers axe or they use fire or whatever he's really really dead. Even a seasoned party of six unprepared adventurers doesn't stand a chance against a mob of 50 adults with weapons. I don't care what the rules say. Only the ones that can fly or teleport are making it out alive.
Whatever you think about that whole mob bit, here's the final most important point: people play the arms race and someone out of a group has to decide to do something. So the troll does something awful, kills twenty men. Better believe a hero or group of heroes will come out of the wood work...I mean that's what this game is all about! Adventurer's skilled and canny enough to beat overwhelming odds. Even once common villagers rising up to fight big bad evil dragons.;)
Course, that's just my opinion.
PS: I agree according to the rules many, many creatures and high level characters can make mincemeat out level 1 commoners. Of course, accepting that as a first level commoner my fate is just to take it from the first BBEG I see is not something I would do.
That might be the start of acceptance; leaving gifts outside the town gate of bushels of nuts, herbs, fruits, wild game, etc, that the 'monster' has gathered, assisting endangered persons (saving someone from drowning, driving off another monster, etc, while not waiting around for praise) or the like are what will get a 'monster' accepted, over time.
As for a party of PCs, the non-freaky members would be smart to tell the half-drow/half-black dragon/dire/pseudonatural/infernal/wereskunk warlock/paladin/ninja/barbarian/OotBI "Gee, Timmy, maybe it'd be better for you to make camp outside of town while we get fresh supplies and gear. We'll sneak you out some lager and chips..."
Now how might a "typical" village fare against, say a troll? To begin, this is a frontier community, or part of an actual kingdom. In the latter case there are several other communities within a mile or three for help. In a frontier community one would expect quite a few hardy frontiersmen (and women) who could readily defeat a troll. Frontier communities also tend to be a bit more security conscious with better palisades and a standing watch. Hence the Troll would fare rather poorly, particularly since their native tongue, RAW, is giant and not understood by a typical villager.
I think that the answer to that is just the same as some of the high tech comparisons that have been made. Because the village has some kind of defense that deals with the dangers of the area. If it is a lumber community in the back hills then maybe 90% of the men are 2-3 level rangers/warriors/archers. If they live in the depths of an organized and safe kingdom, they call upon the knights templar, the clerics, the militia, the nobility, the nearest adventuring party or the metallic dragon they have a pact with down the road. We were talking about 'monstrous' monsters here after all, not the variety that are known and revered.
I suppose that is a little off topic, but I just wanted to point out that this 'average village of 30-90 commoners waving pitch forks' is non-existent in D&D, or rather, the same conditions that created serfs continue to exist and their serf-lord(a 9th level fighter with a retinue) would take care of them. So if anyone agrees with that assessment, could the commoners afford to trust a random troll? It depends on the town, just like we've all gotten done saying.
I do know that in my current campaign setting, a little town I made up called Northaven, 90% of the population can fight 50% of those are barbarians and it's a dueling society so they keep their swords sharp. If a trol wandered in there, met the first man on fair terms and ripped him apart but didn't go on a killing spree and then proceeded to buy lots of mead, I think he'd be pretty darn popular in about nothing flat. Actually, I know he would, I'm the DM ;) If he decided to misbehave, well, that's a lot of enraged barbarians, pun intended.
Things are a bit different at the gate, as you point out. However, given that the average troll can simply scamper over most small-town defensive walls, the issue may well not even come up. This may well be interpreted as a hostile act by the townsfolk, who mob the troll, experience three melee attacks a round, and are ground into paste.
blindcynic: You present interesting ideas. However, I question your logic when applied to a D&D world. I would ask you how many four-year-olds armed with blunted and padded weapons it would take to bring you down (Assuming that you were armed and armored), because a crowd of commoners versus a troll could be couched in those terms. Moreover, I'd ask you how many of those children it would take to defeat a Hind helicopter gunship; this would be analogous to a dragon setting up residence in the town.
Now, even the mighty may be brought down by the most humble, with courage and planning and metric tons of luck. But, in the D&D world, by definition the ones who pull this off are the heroes, and most towns are not populated by heroes. Put simply, only a bare fraction of the 1st-level NPCs of the world will think in terms of endangering themselves greatly now to avoid a possible future threat; look at the fact that totalitarian regimes do in fact survive, and that the people have a bad habit of not engaging in gun play with the police when they come to take them away in the middle of the night.
Ardan The Avenger: If it's not evil for the PCs to show up in the orcish camp and start laying about them, then it shouldn't be similarly evil for a monstrous PC to level a town or two, provided the town swings first. Indeed, my very thesis is that while civic monstrous creatures exist, they almost certainly aren't very nice people, and will cheerfully butcher a human town just as those humans would cheerfully descend on a handful of goblins.
Monsters could earn acceptance slowly, yes, or they could demand it, with spoken or unspoken threats to demolish the town if they don't get it. I claim that after a few generations of this, the level 1 PCs that think like blindcynic will have not left behind descendants (or even graves, in many cases), and most folk will simply accept that if a troll shows up in town and demands goats, you give him the goats, and are damned grateful that he's eating the goats and not your neighbors.
OravennasBrother: Force escalation does not help the commoners much at all; there is every chance that the monster at your gates has class levels as well. Moreover, I think that you are greatly overstating the chance of a number of commoners to defeat a troll. Do consider that if the troll simply attacks until he kills a commoner or two, retreats, and then attacks again in a minute or two after he is healed, then he can very quickly demolish a town's worth of guardians. Also consider that knowledge of its weaknesses requires either combat experience with it, or someone with knowledge checks handy. Given the sudden appearance of a troll where none is expected, it is entirely possible that no one will know what to make of it, other than the fact that it is large and looks extremely dangerous. Given that, and given that most folk are not willing to throw their lives away for what might well be no reason, I maintain that, given realistic population dynamics, a creature that presents a large, obvious threat and that the villagers do not know that they can defeat will simply have its way with any village it chooses to enter.
Until the heroes show up, that is.
I Mix the elements as you will. For some reason, people have been getting angry with me using this sentence: "Your game, your rules".
NeueRegel
How true, as it goes it’s a game, you play it as you see it needs be played. If the characters and DM see the need or the like for having a monster character get "mobbed" then so be it. If it interferes with the game, hey no mobbing. Play it as it need/wants to be played so its fun for all.
While most towns are small establishments with their own rules, larger towns that are part of kingdoms bear flags. A red flag indicates that the town is not open to just anyone, humans only. A trade town would have a green flag, indicating a general acceptance and every humanoid is at least treated somewhat equally. I see this issue coming up frequently in a campaign, but not really with Trolls, Medusas etc. More human like adversaries though, like Drow and even Gnolls. They would logically maybe want to do trade with a town, however a red flag would turn them away before it’s even an issue.
Also, another point. Let's say that a couple of the villagers are considered heroes and rile up their buddies. Chances are they get killed first and that will be a huge blow to the town's confidence. Big Jeb the blacksmith, the strongest man in town is probably only a 3rd level expert and when the troll chews him up out of self defense, the rest of them aren't going to feel so brave anymore.
The village probably could call in local adventurers, but this may be a step towards peace. The town ranger has seen the troll coming, had a deer with it and determined it means no harm. The mysterious wizard in his tower will probably ask the obvious question of "who attacked first?" and ignore their pleas when it becomes obvious the villagers were the initiators of violence.
Even the local fighter, a soldier on leave has probably fought alongside a troll mercenary or two when serving in an army and can smooth things over.
People either flee or fight when surprised by a fearsome creature. Even if it tries to befriend them it only takes one person with a bias or one person too afraid to listen to cause a problem.
This is one of those cases where you have to recognize that a typical D&D world is going to work a bit differently than the real world. D&D societies are facing the undeniable fact that there are a lot of strange creatures out there, often with substantial capabilities, and are adapted to that fact. This is something which real-world human behavior never had to contend with, which means that real-world behavior is a poor model to base D&D reactions on.
Nevermind monsters, real-world peasant mobs would've been a lot less inclined to try to mob "witches" if those "witches" could lob Fireballs back at them, too. Or even Magic Missiles; the whole idea of the mob is that the odds are so much on your side that the victim can't hope to mount a defense, which isn't true when you're dealing with magic, monsters, or just someone who is so amazingly skilled that he can cut you all down in seconds (which many D&D-world characters can).
In the case of most D&D locales, the townsfolk are probably going to be trying to figure out how to deal with the creature *without* escalating the situation, because escalating the situation *will* get some of them killed even if they think they can win eventually. That's not going to be perceived as worth it unless they're already under direct attack or it's obvious that the creature is about to attack and kill those people anyway.
It's a double-edged sword. Your player is insisting on a PC that will cause half the town to flip out on first viewing, but then that is also usually the player who least wants to roleplay (choosing the monstrous race for its fear-inspiring or battle qualities).
True. As a DM, you should warn every player that is about to make a monstrous PC that he is at a great disadvantage in any social situation. The "game balance" only takes combat ability into account, there are no freebies in return for playing a character that makes shops lower their shutters and kings put out a ransom. There are a few monster races that face these problems to a lesser extend, though, such as the hound archon.
As a player, you should be aware of this before making your choice of race.
That said, playing a monster can be advantageous. After all, a drow has much more freedom if the campaign is mainly staged in drow cities.
So, if I am an isolated settlement and somebody moves in with the equivalent power of a Tank (troll), fighter plane (dragon) or is the humanoid equivalent of a weapon of mass destruction (Medusa, Beholder), AND they acted nonviolently, then hopefully, yes, I could see them being accepted. Especially if the isolated settlement is such that it is subject to a lot of dangers, where a tank would be darn handy.
Okay, this reasoning has been all over this argument but it seems completely backwards. The idea that a human-equivalent monster (drow, etc.) would be killed and a stronger monster left alone is not at all realistic.
If a drow comes into town with hands up, no visible weapons, obviously making a peace gesture the people will hear him/her out (because she does not look that different from humans and even less different from the friendly elves who live nearby). The _freak-out_ factor is less, so they will be more patient (albeit cautious) in dealing with the drow.
With an ogre or dragon or something, however, this is a totally inhuman creature. Ogres are too stupid and too huge to compare to humans even though they look vaguely similar. And dragons have wide reputations as beasts. If something that looks more beast than human comes near town, people will immediately react. They might not thing they can take it, and opt to get guards/army/adventurers instead, but they'll call on some force to obliterate it no questions asked--and probably stay away from it in the mean time.
So I'd say that a human-comparable creature (in looks AND personality) could maybe hope to fit in, while a medusa or something would not.
AP
Not that it doesn't help to have some normal-looking fellows to explain why is there a monster walking in the streets of their town\city\village. :D
Normal have no problems, the stuff with no level adj. and are very common.
Animalistic ones are ones with no real big powers and are easy to understand how it might happen, these would be a kobold with normal friends and the anthro animals from SS. They usually take very little penalties.
Monster is the typical troll walking into a town that hates them thing. These guys are not PCs in our game most of the time and usually only come with a poly spell in effect. :D
If Aflack the Gobbo or Orc decides to take a stroll through the local village then in about 10 seconds a mob and/or the town militia will be kicking the ever living crap out of him.
If Urathros the Drow walks in then drow have a reputation for being really evil and having "Black Sorcery!". Thus, Urathros might not be harmed at first, as people watched in fear. So Urathros would be safe...for about 20 minutes. Once people realize that he has no "Fell Magick" with which to fry them or turn them into newts, then they are going to want to remove this drow from their homes, and low-level drow aren't all that tough. All of a sudden Urathros goes from walking around, looking for a tavern to lying face down in the dirt with 20 pitchforks in his face.
Now, if Biff the Minotaur walks into town, in all likelihood everyone's going to drop everything and run for the town guards and then for safety. Now, depending on how tough the guards are they might (if they're tough) enough, try arrest said minotaur. However, if they are low-level, then they'll probably just follow Biff around, with their weapons drawn, trying to look threatening and intimidating. If Biff stays in the town for a few days and proves to be nonviolent, then that escort of guards will slowly lessen, and you'll get a few angry bigots insulting Biff and telling him to leave their village. Eventually though, if Biff stays long enough, they might become accustomed to him.
Now if Anathrotanaxus the Balor decides to do a little antiquing in the local village, then suddenly that village will become depopulated rather quickly...then the paladins will come rolling in.
However, if Gabriel the Astral Deva walks in then he faces an entirely new problem: a mob will run up to, all asking to be healed or saved or to be blessed or have their babies healed etc. etc.
Okay, this reasoning has been all over this argument but it seems completely backwards. The idea that a human-equivalent monster (drow, etc.) would be killed and a stronger monster left alone is not at all realistic.
If a drow comes into town with hands up, no visible weapons, obviously making a peace gesture the people will hear him/her out (because she does not look that different from humans and even less different from the friendly elves who live nearby). The _freak-out_ factor is less, so they will be more patient (albeit cautious) in dealing with the drow.
With an ogre or dragon or something, however, this is a totally inhuman creature. Ogres are too stupid and too huge to compare to humans even though they look vaguely similar. And dragons have wide reputations as beasts. If something that looks more beast than human comes near town, people will immediately react. They might not thing they can take it, and opt to get guards/army/adventurers instead, but they'll call on some force to obliterate it no questions asked--and probably stay away from it in the mean time.
So I'd say that a human-comparable creature (in looks AND personality) could maybe hope to fit in, while a medusa or something would not.
It is indeed standard human behavior to fear and mistrust those different from ourselves. It is also standard human behavior to fold like a dried pansy when confronted with an obviously-superior force. Every day in the real world, people are mugged, or oppressed by authoritarian governments. They could stand up, risk their lives, and en masse, put an end to their oppressors.
But they don't. When you're looking down the barrel of a loaded gun, you do what the man with the gun says. In D&D, this means that if a monster with the obvious capacity for lethal force is interacting with you in something approximating civility, then you thank the gods that this particular troll wants to buy some chickens instead of just eating you and your entire farm and give him the chickens.
Moreover, if town A is willing to accept all manner of beasts, on the grounds that if that troll decides to start a fight, getting in the first (or the first dozen) attacks won't matter, and town B is continually being partially-destroyed by frustrated monstrous characters that actually want to conduct trade, then a cabal of druids will eventually simply cull town B out of frustration. People only oppress those who they can get away with.
Incidentally, a group of kobolds who hire a group of LG adventurers to exterminate a human village that refuses to live in peace with the kobolds and has slain every emissary and diplomat the PCs send would be an amusing adventure.
Lord_Destron: In two words or less: class levels. Any village to try this on a seasoned adventurer just got pillaged, burnt, or eaten. Mind you, that CE orc barbarian 12 probably doesn't need an excuse, but that CN half-orc ftr12 does. Even a vanishingly small percentage of monstrous adventurers (in the context of the world) can have an enormous impact on a world's population; consider that one group of monstrous PCs that casually sacks every town that attacks them first and leaves those towns who leave them alone will, in just one pass across a region, select for those communities that don't start fights they don't have to. Even one such monster every 100 years or so would be enough to noticeably weight the odds of survival in the path of don't-start-fights.
After all, if there's a troll, and a troublemaker, and you've decided to engage in violence, why not just kill the troublemaker? At the very least, you've probably encouraged the troll to eat you last.
In summary, people claiming that folk will put themselves in the direct risk of massive physical harm in the name of either discrimination or even long-term self-preservation are the ones being unrealistic.
Alright, the way I see it, the reaction of the townspeople depends quite a bit on the monster.
If Aflack the Gobbo or Orc decides to take a stroll through the local village then in about 10 seconds a mob and/or the town militia will be kicking the ever living crap out of him.
If Urathros the Drow walks in then drow have a reputation for being really evil and having "Black Sorcery!". Thus, Urathros might not be harmed at first, as people watched in fear. So Urathros would be safe...for about 20 minutes. Once people realize that he has no "Fell Magick" with which to fry them or turn them into newts, then they are going to want to remove this drow from their homes, and low-level drow aren't all that tough. All of a sudden Urathros goes from walking around, looking for a tavern to lying face down in the dirt with 20 pitchforks in his face.
Now, if Biff the Minotaur walks into town, in all likelihood everyone's going to drop everything and run for the town guards and then for safety. Now, depending on how tough the guards are they might (if they're tough) enough, try arrest said minotaur. However, if they are low-level, then they'll probably just follow Biff around, with their weapons drawn, trying to look threatening and intimidating. If Biff stays in the town for a few days and proves to be nonviolent, then that escort of guards will slowly lessen, and you'll get a few angry bigots insulting Biff and telling him to leave their village. Eventually though, if Biff stays long enough, they might become accustomed to him.
Now if Anathrotanaxus the Balor decides to do a little antiquing in the local village, then suddenly that village will become depopulated rather quickly...then the paladins will come rolling in.
However, if Gabriel the Astral Deva walks in then he faces an entirely new problem: a mob will run up to, all asking to be healed or saved or to be blessed or have their babies healed etc. etc.
This is probably the most accurate setup for this that I can find. It also doesn't help that some classes have bad or dangerous reputations. Binders and Warlocks both share the distinction of "Your Class is evil get out before we burn you alive!"
And honestly I sort of see those problems as self feeding as well. I mean Biff the Orc comes into a town as a teenager and gets the crap kicked out of him by some local toughs. He limps back home and grows bitter, he now seeks to become powerful. Builds himself up and gets a group of warriors, struts into town and shows them how it feels to be afraid and hurt... and thus the circle of hatred, death, and why most of these problems are the direct result of idiocy.
As a DM I don't allow monstrous PCs for this very reason. If I allowed say a troll character, and then I have the people in a town not lynch him or what have you because they treat all races with some form of respect (and not just out of fear) then hat now puts a whole new spin on dungeon delving.
That's not necessarily a bad thing. I would argue that it's probably a very, very good thing."Wait, Gorthon, why are we going to raid these caves infested with ogres? The last town we were in had that ogre blacksmith, should we kill ogres?"
A community of ogres living in a cave, eking out a living but not serving as a menace to anyone? I would think that a group of adventurers going into their caves and clearing them out simply because they're ogres is no better than a group of ogres coming and raiding a human village and killing them simply because they're humans.
It might be worth asking what the ogres are doing. An ogre blacksmith living in a human town is no different than any other townsperson, and an ogre bandit raiding outlying villages is no different than any other bandit, and a bunch of ogres minding their own business should not be exterminated simply because they're "monsters." We like to call that "ethnic cleansing," and I think if your "adventures" are dependent on ethnic cleansing being morally OK, you might want to rethink a few things.It is indeed standard human behavior to fear and mistrust those different from ourselves. It is also standard human behavior to fold like a dried pansy when confronted with an obviously-superior force. Every day in the real world, people are mugged, or oppressed by authoritarian governments. They could stand up, risk their lives, and en masse, put an end to their oppressors.
But they don't. When you're looking down the barrel of a loaded gun, you do what the man with the gun says. In D&D, this means that if a monster with the obvious capacity for lethal force is interacting with you in something approximating civility, then you thank the gods that this particular troll wants to buy some chickens instead of just eating you and your entire farm and give him the chickens.
Exactly. One might also point out that wealth is a factor here. People primarily discriminate against two kinds of people: people who are racially or ethnically different from themselves and are too poor to be worth doing business with, and people who are racially or ethnically different from themselves and are richer than they are and are perceived to be hoarding all the money.
If a stranger comes into town with money or goods for trade, you put up with his strange appearance and heathen beliefs, because money talks.
Similarly, if the orcs come rolling into town looking to spend some cash, the good townsfolk hold their noses and make snide comments behind their backs, but they take the money.
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In general, I'm strongly in favor of normalizing intelligent "monsters" as PCs, removing the alignment restrictions and guidelines on different species, providing more balanced looks at different species, and otherwise treating orcs, goblins, and kobolds the same way that elves, dwarves, and halflings are treated. I think that the legacy of Tolkien's racism should be thoroughly repudiated by D&D, and official settings and rules should not be structured in such a way that "elves=good/orcs=evil."
This is probably the most accurate setup for this that I can find. It also doesn't help that some classes have bad or dangerous reputations. Binders and Warlocks both share the distinction of "Your Class is evil get out before we burn you alive!"
"Really? With what class abilities?"
"Uh...we have torches...and pitchforks...and there are a lot of us..."
"Ah, yes. And you're all standing near such wonderfully flammable rude dwellings."
*town goes fwoosh*
As I said, the towns that do this sort of thing sow the seeds of their own destruction, as long as there are at least some warlocks/ogres/orcs/drow/trolls/medusae/etc. that are willing to act like civilized folk.
Now, if you have decided, in the context of your worlds, that all trolls are ravening beasts, all ogres are dumb brutes, and so forth, then my thesis does not apply. Indeed, many people do enjoy exactly such settings, where you can safely hack apart the orc encampment because they all have green skin and tusks and you don't. However, once you bring into play the idea of monsters with class levels, that go around and adventure (and are in fact PCs, which was the original point of my discussion), then it simply does not make any sense for powerful, dangerous foreigners to be met with violent bigotry.
And honestly I sort of see those problems as self feeding as well. I mean Biff the Orc comes into a town as a teenager and gets the crap kicked out of him by some local toughs. He limps back home and grows bitter, he now seeks to become powerful. Builds himself up and gets a group of warriors, struts into town and shows them how it feels to be afraid and hurt... and thus the circle of hatred, death, and why most of these problems are the direct result of idiocy.
Indeed. All things considered, dumb thugs must reproduce by spores, a la WH40K orks; it's clear that they can't possibly be breeding fast enough to keep up with their massive fatality rate.
Also, I would point out that this is yet more justification for enforced equitable treatment; towns that foster local toughs beating up on anyone new and different will either lose their toughs to an adventurer, or their lives en masse to anyone who decides that the toughs speak for the village.
Here: let me throw a base scenario at you all. I'm assuming that many of you have worked retail of some sort in the course of your lives. Now, let's say that you, in the real world, are minding your coffee shop, when a squad of men, dressed in black, unlabeled riot gear and laden with automatic weapons, shotguns, and grenades burst in. You can see two tanks pulling up into the parking lot outside, and you hear an assault helicopter disturbingly low overhead. They're clearly armed and equipped to lay out some serious violence very soon. And then, the biggest one, who is clearly the leader and is carrying the biggest guns, casually leans on the counter and angrily demands, "Hello. I'd like a double-latte with soy milk and a cookie." What do you do?
You could scream 'Help! Police!'. After all, these folk are breaking several important laws. But, odds are you won't. Odds are you will ring up their order as best you can, because if there is any chance of keeping these armed people acting like normal customers, you'll take it, because you can handle customers (even oddly dressed and equipped ones), but you cannot handle explosive death.
Again, to summarize, most people will not react with violence when engaging in said violence will result in painful death, and co-operation will result in survival and possibly profitable exchange. Those people that do react so will not survive to breed another generation of stupidly-aggressive people.
Everything you just said, all of it, I agree with because its true. Unfortunately, this includes the examples you've given here of racial intolerance such as,
...a drow in an elven village will start sprouting arrows,
In reality, the average human instinct more often overcomes the intelligence, and bad things happen. As I said, I agree with what you say in ways beyond gaming. To be honest, I don’t like certain types of people. Just to make it straight, I’m not speaking ethnically or racially or physically. But I don’t grab a pitchfork or scythe and go chasing after them. I don’t know, really, who they are or what their like, to say nothing of what they are capable of. The average person doesn’t think about it this way though.
We fear what we don’t understand
I don’t know who originally said this, but its true. We become weaker than it by succumbing to this fear and are therefore made to feel threatened. This is a natural instinct for all creatures. And the natural reaction is to do away with that which threatens you.
But we can also find unknown things exotic and wondrous. Even beautiful. It is the conditioning of a person that decides their fearful triggers and mechanisms. I see little 12 year old girls holding and petting butterflies because they are attracted to their beautiful colors and designs, but when one lands on me, I’m the one screaming like a little girl. There is very little that frightens me to that extent, but arthropods and pseudopods are the worst. I find them alien and almost demonic in appearance.
So, in conclusion, I see it as acceptable for a group of adventurers of differing racial background to get stares or even be threatened (or at least for one single character) in most places you go just because someone, due to these threatened/threatening feelings, feels the need to lash out at that which is different. That which they feels threatens them. In other words, there’s always going to be that one guy (or girl).
Enough Pratchett-izing the human spirit! His books are funny, but in themselves, entirely neglect the power of the human spirit. If we feel it's a threat, someone will get up and fight. There will always be someone.
It is indeed standard human behavior to fear and mistrust those different from ourselves. It is also standard human behavior to fold like a dried pansy when confronted with an obviously-superior force. Every day in the real world, people are mugged, or oppressed by authoritarian governments. They could stand up, risk their lives, and en masse, put an end to their oppressors.
But they don't. When you're looking down the barrel of a loaded gun, you do what the man with the gun says.
As a DM I don't allow monstrous PCs for this very reason. If I allowed say a troll character, and then I have the people in a town not lynch him or what have you because they treat all races with some form of respect (and not just out of fear) then hat now puts a whole new spin on dungeon delving.
That's not necessarily a bad thing. I would argue that it's probably a very, very good thing."Wait, Gorthon, why are we going to raid these caves infested with ogres? The last town we were in had that ogre blacksmith, should we kill ogres?"
A community of ogres living in a cave, eking out a living but not serving as a menace to anyone? I would think that a group of adventurers going into their caves and clearing them out simply because they're ogres is no better than a group of ogres coming and raiding a human village and killing them simply because they're humans.
It might be worth asking what the ogres are doing. An ogre blacksmith living in a human town is no different than any other townsperson, and an ogre bandit raiding outlying villages is no different than any other bandit, and a bunch of ogres minding their own business should not be exterminated simply because they're "monsters." We like to call that "ethnic cleansing," and I think if your "adventures" are dependent on ethnic cleansing being morally OK, you might want to rethink a few things.
In general, I'm strongly in favor of normalizing intelligent "monsters" as PCs, removing the alignment restrictions and guidelines on different species, providing more balanced looks at different species, and otherwise treating orcs, goblins, and kobolds the same way that elves, dwarves, and halflings are treated. I think that the legacy of Tolkien's racism should be thoroughly repudiated by D&D, and official settings and rules should not be structured in such a way that "elves=good/orcs=evil."
You call it ethnic cleansing; I call it adventuring. So you would say that the adventure Keep on the Borderlands was a massacre as PCs go in and wipe out the denizens for little more than their treasure?
My world has hobgoblins. On continent A they hold small regions under their control and are constantly "at war" with the humans that surround them. Adventurers go in all the time and kill them to remove the threat. No one sees this as a problem.
On continent B they have a sizable and well ordered kingdom under their control. They trade with neighbors rather than attack them and they are seen as a less savory yet tolerable presence. Hobgoblin from Continent B goes to continent A and travels, he is soon killed by the locals. Is this a moral crime? Not in their reality. Just like if the reverse happened and a Hobgoblin from A traveled to B. He would be very surprised by the amount of non-abuse he was receiving.
If adventures hunt it than it shouldn't be a PC race in my opinion as it poses too many problems. The day my PCs say "Hey wait, we invaded the gibbering mouthers home, who cares if you see a mound of treasure over there, we are the bad guys here." is the day I stop DMing.
Is this a moral crime?
Yes, it is.
If adventures hunt it than it shouldn't be a PC race in my opinion as it poses too many problems. The day my PCs say "Hey wait, we invaded the gibbering mouthers home, who cares if you see a mound of treasure over there, we are the bad guys here." is the day I stop DMing.
How does it pose too many problems? Are there no evil or villainous humans in your games? Are all elves uncorruptable? Are no halflings involved in any cutthroat thieves’ guilds? Are there never any warring human kingdoms? If your answer to any of these questions is no, then tell me what makes the other sentient races any different?
Yes, hobgoblins have a strong warlike tradition where one proves themselves on the battlefield and ambition is encouraged. This causes them to come into conflict with most other races... but wait a minute, there are human societies just like this too. So why are hobgoblins any different? I mean really, why are they different? The truth is, they aren't, even the books themselves agree, it's why they are given LA and why they don't have always next to their alignment.
Also I'd be bored to heck in a game where morality didn't matter and such conflicts didn't exist. The second I'm in a game where I'm playing a good person and my "good" allies butcher an entire village of sentient beings for their treasure and the DM is ok with this, I'd stop playing with that DM.
War IS brutal, but if there's one thing history has taught me, it is rarely if ever good, and there are two sides to every conflict. People fight in wars out of necessity unless they are misguided. A true hero knows and understands the brutality that is war, and seeks to end it with as few deaths as possible on either side and find a peaceful resolution.
Those who gleefully kill their enemies because they are green skinned, killing them to their last, never allowing for, and never attempt to find a peaceful resolution to stop the conflict before it's too late to save either side may possibly be a "war hero" to one side, but is a horrible butcher on the other side and to morality as a whole. It is acceptable in most societies because few if any societies are really good. They are neutral and want to protect their own, to hell with anyone who threatens them. However, D&D morality is not based on the acceptance of society but is separate from it.
Such an act IS NOT good, and it's the true heroes that realize this, and if things ever get so bad that they are somehow left with no choice but to massacre an entire village, the actually good heroes will have many restless nights feeling guilty about what they've done, whether they had a choice or not. They be beating themselves up, replaying it over and over in their minds, and wondering, always wondering, "was there another way, is there anything else I could have done?" It is something they will have to live with for the rest of their lives.
Most people in games play neutral games with either good, neutral, lawful or chaotic tendencies, as I don't get the feeling most PCs actually care about those they find it necessary to kill. If you enjoy killing you are probably evil, if you understand the necessity of it and are not bothered by it you are probably neutral. If you regret that it's sometimes necessary, and feel bad about the times it becomes necessary to kill, you are probably good.
I'm sorry, but I just cannot stand playing in a game where this is not the case. Yes, these things happen, yes they are accepted by the general D&D society, no they are not good.
If adventures hunt it than it shouldn't be a PC race in my opinion as it poses too many problems.
What about human bandits?
Now if Anathrotanaxus the Balor decides to do a little antiquing in the local village, then suddenly that village will become depopulated rather quickly...then the paladins will come rolling in.
Aw, nuts... and here I was planning that my next character would be a cornugon (horned devil).
What about human bandits?
Easy. No bandit PCs ;)
This is probably the most accurate setup for this that I can find. It also doesn't help that some classes have bad or dangerous reputations. Binders and Warlocks both share the distinction of "Your Class is evil get out before we burn you alive!"
But how do you tell someone's character class by looking at their face? A group of PCs in one game I played in decided that it was to their advantage to look as interchangeable as possible. Everybody put on long, hooded brown robes. Now, is that hooded, robed person a warrior, a sneak, an arcane caster, a divine caster, or something unusual? All you can see is that he's about 5'8", humanoid, and wearing big, bulky robes with a hood over his face. He could be a human, an elf, a tiefling, an aasimar, or any number of other things. He could even be a level 20 paladin/monk with a vow of poverty. You could look closer, and maybe make out that one of the figures is wearing armor under his robes, but that still only narrows it down to warrior or divine caster, and the unarmored guy could be a kindly ascetic monk or ruthless necromancer.
Odds are you will ring up their order as best you can, because if there is any chance of keeping these armed people acting like normal customers, you'll take it, because you can handle customers (even oddly dressed and equipped ones), but you cannot handle explosive death.
Brilliant. I couldn't have put it better myself. And in a world with adventurers, where both oddly dressed/equipped customers and explosive death are more common than in our world, this is exactly what most shopkeepers would do. Especially weapon/armorsmiths and innkeepers, who the characters are most likely to visit, would be used to strange people.However, it all depends on the town, and also the campaign. In most campaigns, all trolls are slobbering, violent monstrosities. But in a campaign with a troll PC, this is likely untrue, and most intelligent people would know this. Have the NPC make a Knowledge(no s*** Sherlock) check. :P
Easy. No bandit PCs ;)
The question raised was about race, not profession, so that statement is completely irrelevant.
I have to disagree with most of the posters, though. It seems many of those that have posted about fearing those that are different are thinking with a real-world mindset. Yes, if I saw an orc (even unarmed) in Times Square, I would probably need a change of pants. However, if I was in a world with dragons and liches and beholders, and saw the same unarmed orc, I think I'd react a little more rationally.
Unless he had "VoP" tattooed on his arm.
But how do you tell someone's character class by looking at their face? A group of PCs in one game I played in decided that it was to their advantage to look as interchangeable as possible. Everybody put on long, hooded brown robes. Now, is that hooded, robed person a warrior, a sneak, an arcane caster, a divine caster, or something unusual? All you can see is that he's about 5'8", humanoid, and wearing big, bulky robes with a hood over his face. He could be a human, an elf, a tiefling, an aasimar, or any number of other things. He could even be a level 20 paladin/monk with a vow of poverty. You could look closer, and maybe make out that one of the figures is wearing armor under his robes, but that still only narrows it down to warrior or divine caster, and the unarmored guy could be a kindly ascetic monk or ruthless necromancer.
True, in one campaign I ran the guys were on a bounty run to get a group of hobgoblins that had been looting and pillaging. The binder was a karsite, another group had a paladin who noticed something was off about him. Paladin started following him and saw him use a couple binder abilities. After that the party, especially the binder, had to avoid a fair share of angry mobs.
For warlocks, it has more to do with the fact that they are generally charismatic and thus draw attention. Also, the average warlock tends to attract a lot of attention as well.
What about human bandits?
Easy. No bandit PCs ;)
Arent bandits a type of rogue?
Arent bandits a type of rogue?
Presumably, there's a separate subspecies of humanoid that say things like "Hand over your valuables! And we're going to be having some time with the young lady!" and gesture at the party's monk. Likewise, there are subspecies that say things like "My legions of the undying will destroy you!" and "Nothing can surpass the might of my army of easily-killable humanoids!", because humans, as a player race, could never say any of the above comments.
Of course, this leads one to the worrying conclusion that if there are some bad humans, and it's justified to adventure against them and not against the rest, are there only some bad orcs, goblins, trolls, etc? Could there be a village of hobgoblins that are keeping up their martial lore to deal with repeated troll attacks, and simply don't have the manpower to engage in random and frivolous raiding that will likely bring down far more retribution than loot?
In any world with monstrous PCs, sure. On the other hand, the more tightly D&D tries to become a world of rigid, no-thought-required black-and-white morality, the harder it is to get any dungeon-delving at all done.
When I brought this up with a friend, he just shrugged and said "Heroic Fantasy. You have to be able to kill things because they're bad."
And the sad thing is, he's really right. Eberron and d20 modern are specifically different because they're NOT like that. D&D is Heroic Fantasy. By the way it goes, the townspeople should run in fear from any caster ("He will casteth a spelleth on us alleth! Th!"), bow in the holy sanctity of a divine class, and then separate the rest into Noble Knight Upon High, Savage Barbarian From The Northlands, and Dexterous Thief Ready to Steal All Our Goods.
And also, to be fair, commoners never go through this situation. Either they're under attack from a threat suitable to the party's level shortly before the party arrives, are wiped out without a further note, or live their lives contentedly peaceful.