Why should we care about another article discussing sorcerers? (Part 2 of 2) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

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#1 Armoured_Priest Apr 21, 2006 22:49:55	This is Part 2 of my article concerning sorcerers, what may be wrong with sorcerer's class design, and based on those issues, what can and shouldn't be done to change the sorcerer to account for them. Part 1 dealt with identifying what the issues with the sorcerer's class design might be. This continuation will now go into some possible suggestions to counter those issues. What should and should not be done to the sorcerer? I am loathe to do anything directly to the sorcerer’s spellcasting for what I believe to be the same reason as the designers. If you do too much he quickly becomes too powerful, and the sorcerer’s ability to cast any spell he knows so long as he has the slots becomes disgustingly superior to traditional preparation casting. On the other hand, something needs to be done about sorcerers and PrClasses. As it stands, it’s fairly tough for a sorcerer to get into a PrClass, but he loses virtually nothing when he finally gets there. The sorcerer stands alone in this aspect. All of the other base classes have little problem getting into a PrClass. At the same time, there needs to be a reason to want to take sorcerer level 20. As it stands there’s barely a reason to go past sorc level 6 (and that’s only for the mechanical benefit of +1 BAB, and all Saves). In essence, I’m attempting to both make sorcerer level 20 a more interesting choice, without overpowering it, as well as bringing sorc more in line with the other classes by easing up on the difficulty to enter PrClasses. What I have done is break down changes into tiers, along with options on how, and what to employ. These tiers are here for both balance and comfort issues. In personal practice tests, even my top tier changes didn’t overpower the sorcerer compared to other classes, but in other people’s campaigns they may, as I can only do some much testing on my own, and within my home group. Note that while you can use each tier by themselves, they were tested as additions on top of each other. For example, if you use Tier 2, you are also meant to be using tiers 1, and 1.5. If you’re using Tier 3, you’re either using tiers 1, 1.5, and 2, or you’re superseding them. Tier 1:
#2 zombiegleemax Apr 27, 2006 20:57:17	Where did the intuitive learner and metamagic mastery feats come from? Thanks, PS: excellent ideas.
#3 tiercel May 16, 2006 0:11:09	Very interesting set of suggestions. I would like to note that the Tier 2, level 19 ability "metamagic mastery" seems a bit off for the purpose of allowing sorcerers to finally access Quicken Spell. (Basically, your best play to do so is to take Quicken Spell as a "dead" feat at 18, and then hope you get to 19 so you can actually use it.) Level 17 might be a little better.... of course, then Sor18 is the Awesome Level, as you get not only 9th level spells but spontaneous Quickening. Undoubtedly, being able to spontaneously Quicken spells is a nice top-end ability. Outside of Quicken, the effects of the Mastery are pretty mild (nice, of course, but not much to write home about), meaning that pretty much every sorcerer will feel like they "have to" take Quicken to get their money's worth out of their top-end class ability. The proposed 7th and 9th level abilities, while certainly kind of nifty, wouldn't tempt me to stay in the class compared to PrC abilities -- certainly not as much as increased skill points/level and bonus Extra Spell feats. At Tier 3, I have to much more seriously evaluate whether the PrC is giving me "bang for my buck" compared to free metamagic/Spell Focus, as well as better hit points AND skills. Honestly, I think the hit points and skills are the strongest impetus to stay in.... giving up the Sor feats is like a Wizard giving up his bonus feats for PrC abilities. +1 hit point (on average) and +2 skill points per level though is something.... I would note that the Tier 3 version of Intuitive Learner seems a bit overkill -- chances are the Sorcerer wouldn't even be able to max up all 6 skills he chooses unless he is a human with Int 14+ or a nonhuman with Int 16+ (!) and only maxes Concentration from the default Sor skill list. Adding more skills to the class list than you can train up seems to indicate they are there so the sorcerer can easily grab a few ranks of this or that to qualify for a PrC -- but I thought this fix was more aimed at making staying in Sorcerer more attractive, not giving more impetus to bail after Sor5 or Sor6.

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Armoured_Priest

Apr 21, 2006 22:49:55

This is Part 2 of my article concerning sorcerers, what may be wrong with sorcerer's class design, and based on those issues, what can and shouldn't be done to change the sorcerer to account for them. Part 1 dealt with identifying what the issues with the sorcerer's class design might be. This continuation will now go into some possible suggestions to counter those issues.

What should and should not be done to the sorcerer? I am loathe to do anything directly to the sorcerer’s spellcasting for what I believe to be the same reason as the designers. If you do too much he quickly becomes too powerful, and the sorcerer’s ability to cast any spell he knows so long as he has the slots becomes disgustingly superior to traditional preparation casting. On the other hand, something needs to be done about sorcerers and PrClasses. As it stands, it’s fairly tough for a sorcerer to get into a PrClass, but he loses virtually nothing when he finally gets there. The sorcerer stands alone in this aspect. All of the other base classes have little problem getting into a PrClass. At the same time, there needs to be a reason to want to take sorcerer level 20. As it stands there’s barely a reason to go past sorc level 6 (and that’s only for the mechanical benefit of +1 BAB, and all Saves). In essence, I’m attempting to both make sorcerer level 20 a more interesting choice, without overpowering it, as well as bringing sorc more in line with the other classes by easing up on the difficulty to enter PrClasses.

What I have done is break down changes into tiers, along with options on how, and what to employ. These tiers are here for both balance and comfort issues. In personal practice tests, even my top tier changes didn’t overpower the sorcerer compared to other classes, but in other people’s campaigns they may, as I can only do some much testing on my own, and within my home group. Note that while you can use each tier by themselves, they were tested as additions on top of each other. For example, if you use Tier 2, you are also meant to be using tiers 1, and 1.5. If you’re using Tier 3, you’re either using tiers 1, 1.5, and 2, or you’re superseding them.

Tier 1:

zombiegleemax

Apr 27, 2006 20:57:17

Where did the intuitive learner and metamagic mastery feats come from?

Thanks,
PS: excellent ideas.

tiercel

May 16, 2006 0:11:09

Very interesting set of suggestions.

I would like to note that the Tier 2, level 19 ability "metamagic mastery" seems a bit off for the purpose of allowing sorcerers to finally access Quicken Spell. (Basically, your best play to do so is to take Quicken Spell as a "dead" feat at 18, and then hope you get to 19 so you can actually use it.) Level 17 might be a little better.... of course, then Sor18 is the Awesome Level, as you get not only 9th level spells but spontaneous Quickening.

Undoubtedly, being able to spontaneously Quicken spells is a nice top-end ability. Outside of Quicken, the effects of the Mastery are pretty mild (nice, of course, but not much to write home about), meaning that pretty much every sorcerer will feel like they "have to" take Quicken to get their money's worth out of their top-end class ability.

The proposed 7th and 9th level abilities, while certainly kind of nifty, wouldn't tempt me to stay in the class compared to PrC abilities -- certainly not as much as increased skill points/level and bonus Extra Spell feats.

At Tier 3, I have to much more seriously evaluate whether the PrC is giving me "bang for my buck" compared to free metamagic/Spell Focus, as well as better hit points AND skills. Honestly, I think the hit points and skills are the strongest impetus to stay in.... giving up the Sor feats is like a Wizard giving up his bonus feats for PrC abilities. +1 hit point (on average) and +2 skill points per level though is something....

I would note that the Tier 3 version of Intuitive Learner seems a bit overkill -- chances are the Sorcerer wouldn't even be able to max up all 6 skills he chooses unless he is a human with Int 14+ or a nonhuman with Int 16+ (!) and only maxes Concentration from the default Sor skill list. Adding more skills to the class list than you can train up seems to indicate they are there so the sorcerer can easily grab a few ranks of this or that to qualify for a PrC -- but I thought this fix was more aimed at making staying in Sorcerer more attractive, not giving more impetus to bail after Sor5 or Sor6.