1: Frodo never got the chance to buy a +1 sword, and neither did Arthur Pendragon.
2: You want to control what kit the players have by providing Magic Items only in treasure hauls.
3: You think that buying a Magic Item is somehow unrealistic.
I've seen many posts on these boards of ours, and all of those against buying Magic Items seem to be based on one or more of the above points. Even if any of those points held water, and we shall see presently that they do not, it is simply bad DMing to keep your players from equipping their PCs as they please.
40% of an average character's power is based on his Magic Items. Some more, a Fighter without his weapon and armour is essentially dead, a Monk can often get by with very little kit until he meets something with DR. Nevertheless, 40% is a good average figure. However, the Wealth by Level guidelines, which ultimately govern the amount of kit a character should have assume that a character not only has a given value of equipment, but that the equipment in question is actually useful.
There's only so much use a PC can get out of a Helm of Underwater action during an adventure based in the streets of Greyhawk. By the straight wealth rules, that Helm is worth 57'000gp, but what would the PC rather have, that or an 8'000gp Human Bane Longsword?
You see my point. Even if you follow the Wealth by Levels guidelines, it is still important that the PCs have the right kind of equipment. And there are essentially two ways to ensure that. The DM can provide treasure that is custom-made for the PCs:
Fighter: “Hey cool, a +2 Dwarven Double-spear, what are the odds that we'd find the rare exotic weapon in which I have specialised.”
Wizard: “Pretty good, I mean just last week I was wishing I had some Bracers of Armour and then the very next day...”
Or, you can outfit your NPC foes with gear that makes sense for them, and then allow the PCs to trade their loot for the stuff they want.
Now, let's talk about the 'realism' argument against having Magic Item shops. First, there’s the question of where does the supply come from? The obvious answer is Adventurers. They guy who didn't want a Helm of Underwater action is only one Adventurer in a big world. There is certainly someone out there who has a quest that involves going swimming. That's supply and demand then.
Then there's sundry Spellcasters. I don't know how much it costs to build a Cathedral of Pelor, but I do know how much profit the church makes from every Wand of Cure Light Wounds it sells (375gp), and they certainly have a big market (every adventuring party ever). That's supply and demand then.
There's also the Necromancer who needs 28'500gp worth of Black Onyx to fund his army of the undead, 2'000 odd xp and one Helm of Underwater Action later, and he's got a war chest. Meanwhile, the guy who bought it is recovering the Mace of St. Cuthbert from a sunken ship in order to stop him. That's supply and demand.
The point I'm making here is that, not only is it believable to have a trade in Magic Items, it is inconceivable that there would not be such.
And Adventurers are not the only potential customers for such things. No one will ever tell you that the wealthy exclusively buy things that are useful. There's the aristo who has a +5 Elven Thinblade on his hip who hasn't the first clue how to fight, The Merchant who has an Aparatus of Kwallish in his courtyard just because it amuses the kids, and the Court Wizard who's Carpet of Flying is a mere status symbol.
At this point, a lot of people will say that Magic simply should not be sold, that it should be special, rare, something only encountered on Adventures. Well, you're playing the wrong game. Dungeons & Dragons is fundamentally magical in nature. Magic suffuses the game. Every village in the land has an Adept, or a Cleric or Druid, if not living in the village, then within a few miles. Magic is everywhere, everyone has seen it. You want magic to be rare and special but it is not in this game, and if you make it so then you merely deprive your players of something to which they are entitled. Frankly, there should be more magic. There should be magic rings that keep the rain off, magic baths that self-fill and never go cold, magic chess boards that can play against people. And they should all be for sale, to those with the coin.
“But Tolkien never included a Magic Item Shop”
Yes, But Professor Tolkien was writing a book. He had a definite plot and an ending worked out. His characters were always going to win in the end, and if they needed anything, they got it--it just fell out of the sky. (Strider: “Hey, short-arse, I noticed that you were crappy in a fight, so I pulled these barrow-blades out of a plot device, now don't say I never give you anything.”) Besides which Tolkien's world is fundamentally different from D&D in that Magic is rare, wonderful and nebulous in ability. You can try to play D&D like that, but it won't be pretty.
Let's come to the point. Our game, the game I love, is about Great Adventure, mighty heroes and wicked villains, true romance and deathless courage. Epic duels, fantastic voyages, Glory, Greatness and what it is to be Alive! It's not about shopping. So grab your sword, never mind where it comes from, and I'll meet you on the high road to adventure.
3: You think that buying a Magic Item is somehow unrealistic.
Well, there's only one problem with the idea of a magic item shop: experience. Experience is an out of game concept that's required to make magic items, and it's method of acquisition is most often through violent and life threatening methods. Is every merchant who deals in magic items a serial/mass murderer who breaks into the homes of undeveloped races to steal their possessions? You'd need to explain how they got the experience without turning every one of them into adventurers.
Now I would like to say that I think you have presented a solid argument, particularly at the very end. I disagree, however, that D&D has to be the way it is presented in the core rulebooks or that it has to be any one thing or another at all. That, to me, is the beauty of this game: You can make anything you want out of it.
What you have stated here is perfectly logical and reasonable for anyone playing in the core setting. You may have even swayed me towards your view in some small way. However, people can create their own worlds which differ greatly from anything presented in the core rulebooks. When they do so, your argument becomes less valid or even void (though, it could be argued that when such major changes are made it is no longer Dungeons & Dragons as much as it is fantasy roleplaying using the D20 system.)
I think the view you have presented here is logical and mostly reasonable. It seems to be rather restricting to me, though. If we wanted the world to always be a certain way, we could play other games such as World of Warcraft or an Elder Scrolls computer game. In D&D, the players (including the DM) are in control.
I especially liked paragraphs 10-14, by the way. It helps me add realism to the game, putting small magic in rich people’s homes, NPCs buying items, stuff like that.
You make some very good points there, Azezal. I agree that some reasons why DMs do not allow magic to be traded is questionable at best, and downright unfair. However, I would like to make one point which you may wish to take into consideration:
Yes, the church of Pelor will be churning out Wands of Cure Light Wounds by the bucketload because, well, who DOESNT have one? Same with many potions, and indeed +1 longswords and the like. However, I think that it is pushing it too far to think that everything that a player wants a player can get just by going down to the Market District and forking over some cash.
Some items - generally the more expensive and exotic items - will not be found even in the largest cities. Sometimes, there just wont be that +3 dancing flaming keen fullblade that your fighter just has to have. Why? Because its a very specific request.
That is not to say that the fighter will not be able to get it, though. I agree with you main point that DMs should not be restrictive of what people can get. However, that fighter will have to seek out a skilled enough crafter and enchanter to custom-make his weapon, and that will take time. This is how I deal with magic items in my games - common magic items can be found in almost any shop, but for the bigger and better things its far more likely that you will have to deal on request.
Thanks for this post, it’s a very good read
Duncs
Then there's sundry Spellcasters. I don't know how much it costs to build a Cathedral of Pelor, but I do know how much profit the church makes from every Wand of Cure Light Wounds it sells (375gp), and they certainly have a big market (every adventuring party ever). That's supply and demand then.
This is precisely why I make magic items available for purchase. People, as a general rule, are smart when it comes to making money. Their ability to make magic items (or find a way to make them) comes at about the exact same time they realize adventurers carry enough money to buy a small kingdom.
That's to not to say that every item a person could want is available. Mainly "just" items that are guaranteed to sell. Magic weapons and armour are obvious sellers though you might have a difficult time finding that Keen +5 Vicious Greatsword of Speed.
At this point, a lot of people will say that Magic simply should not be sold, that it should be special, rare, something only encountered on Adventures. Well, you're playing the wrong game. Dungeons & Dragons is fundamentally magical in nature. Magic suffuses the game. Every village in the land has an Adept, or a Cleric or Druid, if not living in the village, then within a few miles. Magic is everywhere, everyone has seen it. You want magic to be rare and special but it is not in this game, and if you make it so then you merely deprive your players of something to which they are entitled. Frankly, there should be more magic.
This part bears repeating.
We do not use the RAW for buying stuff for the following reasons:
1. The treasure you find should be exciting and it should be the main source of stuff. Venturing down forgotten passageways is where the excitement is at - and finding stuff is part of that excitement. We feel that wielding the sword that you seized from horde of necklegrubbe the arch fiend has more history and character than the sword you bought from you local branch of Tesco's or Walmart. In short your character using adventure found equipment is more "characterful" and interesting than using magic shop treasure.
2. If most of the stuff you find is regarded as "stuff to be sold" then what it is does not really matter. Only optimised items hold any interest. In short the treasure you find becomes largely a different form of carrying wealth around. You might as well say it is a bunch of platinum pieces or gems or whatever.
3. Character treasure will have a tendency to become identikit. Everyone will have winged boots, all fighters will have animated shields, all bows will be holy, armour hasted etc
4.You do not explore the uses of weird and wonderful items. The periapt of health that saved our sorcerer’s life when his hitpoints went negative - there is all sorts of stuff we have kept and used which if we had used the RAW magic shop rules we would have sold.
5. The "bang per buck" of magic items does vary enormously. I know you agree with this as you argue why it would make sense in the fantasy setting for this items to be around. It makes rather less sense as a game mechanic, a point that wizard developers have made on the WotC website.
However, if these are some of the reasons why you are "wrong", I do not think you are completely wrong. You are right that the fantasy setting is highly magical and it seems logical that magical items would be bought and sold. Character balance does presume characters have access to equipment.
There are some other reasons why treasure buying is useful in game terms. Characters accumulate wealth - so what are they going to do with it once it has been found. In some campaigns buying property, status, information, etc may be beneficial though it will generally not affect the base competences of the characters involved. Magic shop gives an outlet for such wealth.
Also some magic treasure is pretty useless. After you have got your first Myrland's spoon, then any adventure that gives you a second is really not giving anything away at all - unless you can convert it into cash.
The question becomes then - how do you balance out the problems with RAW magic shop with ensuring wealth has value etc.
We came up with a solution which we called "magyck shoppe" that is based around the concept that the characters search out useful stuff to buy. Depending on the level of the character, you get a certain (small) number of rolls on the random treasure charts (power of item found depends on character level as well).
Some useful stuff does come up, but it is rarely optimised. Adventure found treasure remains the main source of our equipment. We also restrict item creation as well. It would be interesting to see what others do.
Controlling items PCs receive is a perfectly legitimate way for a DM to keep their PC balanced, not only in relation to the world they are adventuring in but also in relation to each other. In fact even if magic item shops do exist in a campaign world unless they are stocked with every magic item ever written about ever (in my opinion a bad idea) you will also be controlling the PCs in what they can and cannot buy.
You cannot apply economics to a trade in magic items, while supposing that the main supply of those items is from adventures. the amount of adventures that would be required to even begin to create a healthy market would be so colossal that your current PC would have no more adventures to do because they have all been done (unless you allow quest to be done repeatedly in a World of Warcraft-esq style campaign, that might be what your aiming for, who knows)
treasure gain from adventures is far to random for the static prices supplied in the DMG to mean anything (that is unless you plan on supplying your PCs with a large amount of very similar items, in which case you are controlling what they receive). in your example above the necromancer who wants vast sums of gold to fund his army of the undead will not sell his Helm of Underwater Action for 57000gp simply because it it very unlikely that there is another one in whatever near by market in which he wishes to sell it. if any demand ever comes up for such an item (which really is unlikely in itself) he will squeeze every last cp he can out of anyone who wants to buy it (although it is more likely that he would break into the house of some rich aristocrat, kill him and steal all his cash).
Churches of good deities survive on charitable donations from the rich and poor, giving the promise of going to heaven. Churches of evil deities extract money from the local populace by fear of retribution if you don’t give "generously". Now many Wands of CLW will be made because it costs XP to do so and actually the market is rather small. The wands that are made however can be sold for far more than their stated price in the DMG.
if you wish to have magic item shops throughout your campaign then you can arbitrarily have them spring up everywhere (which is your right as DM) or you have a magic item industry that does supply a regular and consistent supply of magic items. then and only then can you apply free market economics to a magic item trade. i suggest you read wrecans excellent article on such an idea
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=755485
People who flaunt magic items as status symbols will have them stolen by all manner of rogues, spellcasters and guys that are bigger than they. the only people who would be able to hang on to magic items would be high level NPCs who don’t want to buy your stuff because the stuff they have is better.
the rarity of magic items in the game is purely up to the campaign world that the DM is running his campaign in. if your playing a game in Eberron you can expect to have magic stuff coming out of your ears by the time your level 10. However, some campaign world will seek to have magic as a rare and mystical power, used by few and understood by even less. Middle earth is a classic example of a world where every other guy does not have a +1 longsword.
You may play your campaign as you wish but to then turn round and proclaim that everyone else that doesn’t follow your ideas are wrong is ignorant, misguided and leads to play fascism.
Plus, the more popular the item, the less likely it will be in stock for long (assuming adventurers sold those to shop owners at all). Amulets of Natural Armor and stat boosting items should sell faster than that Helm of Underwater Action; yet according to the tables they're not necessarily any more common than the Helm.
Also, it's not just Tolkien. Most high fantasy eschews the "Magical Walmart" concept, except for Harry Potter (judging from the movies, I've never read the books). Magic Item shops give the game more of a "video game" feeling that I dislike, rather than the "high fantasy" feeling that I do like.
All that aside, the real reason your argument (namely, that other people's opinions are "wrong" unless they agree with you) falls a bit short is that you ignore the most important reason of all. Making magic items common to the point of making them available "on demand" makes them less special. Even if, as part of a dragons hoard, you give a player *exactly* the item his character wanted, the reaction becomes "Oh gee, now I guess I don't have to buy it." If you give him something that *isn't* exactly what he wanted, then you might as well just have given him cash equal to half it's base price (and the player's reaction to it will be about that exciting).
This greatly changes the feel of the game, since receiving treasure is suddenly less interesting than the shopping excursion afterwards. It's the equivalent of giving them an ugly sweater as a birthday gift, but including the receipt in the gift box. They may unexcitedly mouth the words, "Oh...umm....great," but they're just being polite. The real excitement will come when they trade it in for something they want more. DMs no more want to receive that sort of reaction from players than parents do from their children on Christmas morning.
The reason for this reaction is simply one of rational player expectations. If the players expect absolutely optimal equipment, with zero risk of being saddled with suboptimal equipment, then the best the DM can do is merely meet that expectation. If you only meet someone's expectations, you can never expect that to thrill them greatly.
If the players expect that their equipment will be "good," but not 100% optimal, they innately realize that there's a risk about "how good." It's easy to generate player excitement in that case, because (assuming a risk averse player, which most people are) the risk-adjusted expectation will always be lower than the actual "good" result. The only time that's not true is when the DM's idea of "good equipment" is substantially less powerful than the individual player's estimation.
(One potential problem, from a "meta-metagame" perspective, is when players approach all campaigns with a baseline assumption that there will be magic item shops, and then you have to disabuse them of that notion in the case of your particular campaign. That itself violates those players' expectations in a negative way and can be a source of tension until their expectations can adjust.)
In the end, it doesn't matter whether you have magic item shops or not. Even if your players do not have "ideal" equipment, neither (most likely) will NPCs, so there is no systemic bias in that regard.
The one real problem, in my mind, is that a lack of magic item shops prejudices warrior classes more than primary spellcasters, since the latter can fill the gap with spells. They might also take item crafting feats, but I find that the XP cost of bigger ticket items is a fairly significant balance on that option, especially if the party is receiving otherwise serviceable (but not absolutely optimal) magic items.
The fix I prefer to avoid unduly prejudicing warrior classes is, when generating items randomly, to favor granting magic weapons and armor as treasure slightly more than any other individual type of item.
I am not suggesting that magic item shops should never exist. I am just saying that I don't like their flavor in my games. Your attempt to convince me to change my opinion hasn't quite hit the mark. Sorry. You're arguments aren't bad, but the salient points are largely just a restatement of the arguments against having a "low magic" game. People who like low magic games aren't "wrong" either.
There should be magic rings that keep the rain off, magic baths that self-fill and never go cold, magic chess boards that can play against people.
I believe Eberron has those, along with magic streetlights that light up when it gets dark (oh, the wonders possible with magic!).
In our homebrew campaign, one of the nobles had a bath with a couple of water elementals who took the shape of - of all things - nubile beauties. Lord knows why. Come to think of it, if you are looking for serious trade in magic items, look no further than "The Book of Erotic Fantasy".
Having said that, there should be an air of - well, of the magical. An option is to make magic items look like what they do. Like the illustrations in the magic item compendium.
As an analogy, visit one of our modern shrines to consumerism: the mall. You'll find stores that specialize in selling basically useless doodads at inflated prices, and specialty stores for most conceivable products.
Well, not really. Do they have a kiosk for someone selling mainframes? No. Because mainframe computers are very expensive, and have a pretty limited market. Most people who want to buy a mainframe either contact the manufacturer directly, or go through a business that sells mainframes in addition to many other products with a broader consumer base.
And while we are talking about Supply and Demand, if the PCs don't see a Helm of Underwater action as being useful where they are, well it probably isn't. Which means that the merchant they're trying to sell it to realizes that he's unlikely to be able to re-sell it here. There just isn't much Demand for that kind of thing out here in the desert. (If you're PCs aren't hoarding every magic item they think is potentially useful in their current environment, you haven't made them paranoid enough.
) So, his plan is to try to sell the Helm to another merchant.Slowly, passing through the hands of many middlemen, that Heml will move closer to the coast. And it's price creeps up every time it changes hands. Which is why the first merchant only paid about 20% of what he figures it will sell for at the coast. (That and the fact that it is tying up a LARGE amount of his cash until he can unload it, and Demand isn't very high around here so it's likely to be a while before he can unload it.)
After all, the local merchant isn't WAL-MART: he isn't part of some international chain of stores and shippers, he's an independent merchant. The fact that this item would sell easily in Riverton is only of interest to him if he is planning on going to Riverton soon, or knows someone who is (or someone from Riverton who will be coming here soon).
So, yes there will be magic items for sale in most sizable settlements. But will there be a shop that sells nothing but magic items? Probably not even in the largest of cities. And the businesses that have magic items for sale (mostly pawn shops or secondhand stores) will not have every item listed in the DMG. Not even every item with a price low enough. And due to Supply and Demand, they are most likely to be out of the stuff that is most obviously useful in the local environment. "Sword of Orc Bane? Sorry, ever since the Orcs started raiding us I can't keep 'em on the shelves. Half the city guard's been in here looking to spend their life savings, and I had to turn most of 'em away. I can add you to the waiting list..."
And if you want a magical Dwarven Axe-Spear (or other rare weapons/item), you're probably going to have to pay somebody to make one for you, because those don't happen randomly very often for you OR for the guys selling their loot to the local shop. (Although you may be able to save a bit of coin by paying for rumors/news of any shop anywhere that has one, then going off on an Adventure to get to that town and buy it.)
So, you don't like the Magic Item shop? I see... Well, I'm sorry, but your opinion is wrong
.
D&D is about customisation, be it in flavour, settings, house rules or even "roleplay" vs "rollplay". If a world requires low magic or less magic items so be it, as long as the players are aware and ok with such a setting. Now don't get me wrong there should be a Magic shop of some kind, somewhere on the planet. But every village?, sorry but I have to disagree. There may be a Cleric watching over a congregation where ever they can find one, but I think he will be more concerned about tending to their needs rather than stocking up on items to sell to passing adventurers. I mean we all know how much time, money, and xp it takes to make items. but these people have work to do in the community, they are not going to spend their spare time and money making a selection of potions they may never need or use.
Lets face it, as adventurers how many of us have gotten to a high level and decided to spend all of our down time mass producing magic items and weapons? Who of us has the money to make a Spare +5 longsword or Full Plate +5 and then go about trying to find some one who can afford it! What wizard, PC or otherwise, is going to randomly go about selling the scrolls of his hard earned spells to people who might potentially turn around and use them against him?
Saying that, there will be, somewhere, a Dwarf smith or Magic researcher who, in their quest to make the perfect weapon or research the perfect spell, who sells lots of lesser items to fund their research or materials. And of course there are the adventurers, who have outgrown or are unable to use some items from their travels, who wish to upgrade to better things. I find that a Magic shop would be more like a Magic Pawn shop, trading the unwanted items from one person to others. A much more profitable enterprise than making them for sale!
Fighter: “Hey cool, a +2 Dwarven Double-spear, what are the odds that we'd find the rare exotic weapon in which I have specialised.”
Wizard: “Pretty good, I mean just last week I was wishing I had some Bracers of Armour and then the very next day...”
Or, you can outfit your NPC foes with gear that makes sense for them, and then allow the PCs to trade their loot for the stuff they want.
Alternatively, your PCs could be proactive about the game and actively seek out the powerful magic items they desire. Want that dire flail of ultimate killing? Researching in the local university reveals it to be in the hands of Gill the Uber-Gnoll, who lives in Very Dark Forest. Exotic +3 weapon found with limited stretch of credulity. Encourage your PCs to enchant weapons rather than discarding them, and you are set for quite a few levels.
I mean, to some extent not everything should be available. After all, if I've got a holy relic of my personal jesus, the best sword in the world, or a runestaff, I'm probably not going to sell it for "market value". The examples you give, after all, are people selling generic not-very-universal items or cheap, recreatable items. I think it would make sense that it's harder to find things like Kickass swords or Bracers of Armor and so forth: why sell your old ones when you can upgrade?
There are a lot of other considerations when it comes to who is selling this stuff, too. In a setting where the majority of the populace are just peasants, or commoners or whatever they're called, it's not like a lot of people know how to identify most magic weapons, so they'll have to hire talent on that, plus they've got to secure the damn thing, and protect themselves from that rare occasion when some big bad ugly dude in rune-crusted and blood-drenched armor and cape sweeps majestically into their shop to retrieve his long lost sword and shield, pawned by a pair of adventurers in exchange for a really awesome Horn of Valhalla or whatever.
But, yes, some settings might have magic shoppes, curio sections, or whatever, but I think that there's a lot of complicated issues with the economics of the magic item trade that you're either not expanding on or not thinking about.
Also, there is the point of the gang in Tolkien just happening to find exactly what they need along the road. Why not just do that? Nothing says you have to find the treasure from killing the monster right there. It could be a reward from someone, it could be an empowerment granted by a wizard, etc.
I think that you're saying it's more up to the teller to make the reward interesting and dynamic rather than simply "Huh, look, what a nifty coinkydink, the item I've been hoping to own is in the dragon's pile" and I agree. I just don't think that "You hang out in the castle market until you find someone who just happens to be selling this item" or abstracting it at all benefits the players, unless they're just tacticaling it, and then, who cares?
Strider: “Hey, short-arse, I noticed that you were crappy in a fight, so I pulled these barrow-blades out of a plot device, now don't say I never give you anything.”
So, you don't like the Magic Item shop? I see... Well, I'm sorry, but your opinion is wrong.
~~it is simply bad DMing to keep your players from equipping their PCs as they please.
I am not wrong. You and I simply have different preferred styles of play is all. In general I do not like the idea of simply buying/selling whatever magic item you like at the local Magic-R-Us Shop. Especially at consistent set prices. With but a few VERY well run exceptions, this style of play has always left a stale taste for me as it drains away some of the wonder involved.
Since this detracts from my enjoyment of the game, I try and avoid playing in campaigns structured that way. And when I DM I don't run that style at all, which must suit my players as they willingly keep playing (and trust me, I'd hear ALL about it if they weren't happy). But I think others in this thread have pretty well covered this point by now though.....
As far as buying/selling magic not being realistic goes, my dislike of the magic shop (as you obviously envision it) does NOT mean that items never get bought/sold or traded in games I run. Nor should it be implied that I run a low-magic game. It just simply doesn't work as the sterile mechanic presented in the modern books. There's a lot more involved in selling off a magical item in one of my campaigns than simply cashing it in for 1/2 GP value.
And other than various potions or maybe some race/region specific stuff (dependant a lot upon proximity - if you're in/near the desert, odds are you'll find more items geared to that environment, if you're dealing with tundra elves...etc.), there's a helluva lot more work in acquiring things. Even more so for very specific things. And some things may simply not ever be available - save for through the most extraordinary means. Why? Because this provides grist for further adventures beyond just the "let's go kill/loot x" scenarios.
"Because Frodo never got to go shopping" Yea, that's nice. JRRT & other authors can write whatever they want/need. They've got a set story in mind & need to have x plot elements in place to make it work. Great. {I} run a pretty free form RPG game. I'll borrow any elements I like from their stories, but overall they don't dictate how I play.
Your claim that I want to limit the kit of my players, and that this makes for bad DMing?
Limiting the kit is NOT bad DMing. Quite the opposite. It's responsible DMing in that it ensures that each game session is both fun and challenging for all sitting at the table.
For as long as I've been playing there's been Monty Haul campaigns. It's usually a degenerate game where too much treasure is given out and the players become way over powered. And it was traditionally the fault of the DM. Nowadays the rules for buying/selling magic items all but hand that game breaking power over to the players! Oh, they might not be able to wield +5 psuedo artifacts immediately, but if you simply stick to exactly what the book says your players can most certainly optimize themselves right into the same old MH mess & crash a good game.
I've been there/done that. I know how to control it and most importantly, I know how to prevent it.
Thus there are a few limits in campaigns I run. Starting with there being no generic magic shops.
As for having them sold second hand because there's no market large enough to support the economy, that's nonsensical. The real world market, for, say, RVs is fairly small. But RVs are really expensive, making each sale 2 things: very profitable and a significant investment. If I'm going to buy an RV, I don't want to buy it from some random car salesman because he sells similar things and RVs by extension. I want to buy from someone who knows what they're talking about and specializes.
I imagine the same would be true for magic items.
The way I see it, the local artificer uses up his craft reserve, for cursed items uses retain essence, and also owns a talisman of transference for commissioned items, to handle the xp costs of magic item creation. I'm betting he also has the Legendary Artisan and Extraordinary Artisan feats. XP can be gained through a variety of means, including diplomacy involved with bartering each item he sells.
Amen. Too many DMs forget (or purposefully ignore) the simple fact that, /gasp, XP is not awarded solely for slaying monsters! Traps, for example, have a Challenge Rating. That number isn't tacked on there just for laughs, folks. Circumventing the trap = XP... or it's supposed to, anyway. A Wizard constantly churning out magic items could very well be gaining the XP to do so by conducting vast amounts of research for the ruler of the kingdom; alternately, he could be sacrificing virgin Orc females sent to him by the Orcish Overlord commissioning his services as he tries to take over the Kingdom of Nextdooria.
Ultimately, this is a DM's decision on how to run his game, but Azezel happens to make a few points that I agree with entirely. I played in a game where, as a Level 12 Rogue, the only Magic Items I had that were actually useful to me were a +2 Mithral Breastplate of Grace and a +1 Adamantine Rapier. Check out the "Wealth by Level" charts sometime, our group was horribly under-equipped. (I probably had the best gear in the party, second only to our Cleric who often doubled as Tank due to migrating players.) A shortage of Magic Items severely cripples players in relation to Encounters "their level" by WotC developer standards. They assume that a Level 12 character will have over 100k gp worth of items, most of which will be static (non-consumable) items.
Do you have to play that way? Of course not. But keep in mind that in most cases, if you under- or over-equip your party, encounters need to be adjusted in some degree as well.
A few of you have more or less said that Azezel should "just run his campaign in Eberron." That might be a convenient answer, but chances are it's probably not to his flavor. I have a campaign starting in a week where I'm using portions of the Eberron rules - including Races, Classes, & DragonShards - but the setting itself doesn't fit the flavor for my "worldly vision."
Will there be "Magic Wal-Marts?" Yes, actually, but unlike Wal-Mart the items do indeed have limited supply and the PC's can expect to pay anywhere from 3x - 5x Market Value shopping at such a place. Why is this? For exactly some of the reasons described above. These places need guards, and guards need to be paid. The shops need to be magically reinforced and fortified, possibly with Spell Sentinel traps that activate only at night - these things aren't any cheaper to make for "Magic-Mart" than they are for the player. Do they take custom orders? Let's put it this way: Try making a custom order at Wal-Mart sometime and you'll have your answer. Those sorts of things will still require the use of sundries shops, black market trade, or requesting the services of an appropriate NPC.
There are many ways to achieve balanced parties and a level of magical trade appropriate to your world. Azezel's remarks are aimed at a proportion of DMs, about 30% by my experience, who DM rather casually and never consider the near-limitless options available for tweaking your world and your campaign. Many people simply don't have the time or energy to devote that much time to a hobby. However, that doesn't change the fact that treating the PCs and a rare handful of NPCs as the only entities that meddle in any respectable level of magic makes D&D more like the stereotypical videogame, not less. If you disagree, by all means go play a few console RPGs and see how often a passing adventurer Resurrects you when you wipe to 'Game Over.' While you're at it, see how often the local Cleric, Druid, or Wizard steps in to protect the town; better yet, see how often the town has such a person. You'd be amazed.
-Geregald
According to page 137 of the 3.5 DMG, a large town will have items for sale less than 3,000 gp; it specifically says:
The gold piece limit (see Table 5-2) is an indicator of the price of the most expensive item available in that community. Nothing that costs more than a community's gp limit is available for purchase int hat community. Anything having a price under that limit is most likely available, whether it be mundane or magical. While exceptions are certainly possible ..., these exceptions are temporary
Anything under the limit is most likely available. That means in a large town, you will be able to find a +1 any weapon you want, almost any 1st level spell in wand form (except probably identify, because of the material component), +1 armor or shields, +1 bracers, you get the picture. A metropolis has a limit of 100,000 gp, and by the time a wizard can cast teleport the players will be guaranteed access to a metropolis.
So, if you're limiting what your players can by beyond what the DMG says, then you are the one playing by house rules, not the OP. If you need a way to have this make sense, then just require some Gather Information checks if you need to track down an item post-haste.
I think that it should actually be easier to make magic items. None of this high cost, one day per item crap. It should be possible for a spellcaster to mass produce rings that keep the rain from landing on you. It should be sold for a gold or two at the local store. Not necessarily a magic store. Honestly, the local clothing store would be best. Even a first level Sorceror could do this and live a decent life.
First of all, I think you need to distinguish between stores that sell magic items and a shop that sells nothing but magic items.
That is an interesting point that I hadn't considered.
From a realism perspective, there are two reasons I can think of why a merchant might specialize in magical items. The first is if they are making magical items. Obviously, if you have a spellcaster running the shop who actually creates items himself, he could stock anything he can personally make, and would be more likely to carry magical cloaks alongside Daern's Instant Fortresses, since he can make both (assuming he has Craft Wondrous Item).
The second reason a shop might focus on magical items is simply cost. Magic items are expensive. I can easily imagine a store that carries them catering to the needs are a very upscale and particular clientèle. Such a store would presumably deal exclusively in "high end" goods (and nothing is more high end than magic items in D&D) and ignore (mostly) the low end, mundane equipment.
As I did note above, I am somewhat skeptical of the ability of such a shop to exist due to the capitalization that would be required to maintain it. It could pretty easily blow the top off the NPC wealth by level table, even if you had many fairly high level investors (let's say 15th, with their 59,000 gold net wealth). Presumably the investors aren't going around in rags so that every silver piece can be invested in the store. It's hard to imagine that a single NPC could run such a shop and keep it well stocked.
(That also gets into the question of why anyone would ever invest in anything in D&D...since there is a "Wealth by Level" table, not a "Wealth by Level unless you invest wisely in a high profit business" table. So, you have to stray into the realm of "houserules" in order to make the capitalization for such a store work, or make every store proprietor epic level (a 30th level NPC has a 570K gold net worth). Those houserules would probably have to ignore the fact that high profits would attract competition into the same business, until those high profits reached "normal" levels.)
The main reason I think many DMs and players prefer the "Magical Walmart" concept is practical rather than realistic, though. First, mundane equipment ceases to be prominently featured after lower levels. Second, more importantly, it's less tedious to pretend there is magical "one stop" shopping, than to force the characters to spend the day wandering from shop to shop, merchant stall to merchant stall, looking for the item they want to buy. Assuming the item is available at all (and the impression Azezel leaves me with is "yes, it is available if you can afford it"), then my guess the RP interaction boils down to something quick and painless, taking maybe a minute, rather than something more complex where you actually interact with multiple shopkeepers.
So, if a player said, "I need a Cloak of Protection, a +1 Sizing Flaming Burst Ooze-Bane Khopesh sword, a lantern, some oil and new silk rope," I suspect the typical reaction would be "okay, deduct the gold from your character sheet." Since the game isn't "about" shopping, I can't imagine it would be much fun for the player to be told, "Okay, you go to the market and find the lantern and oil, so deduct 2 silver pieces from your character sheet. Now you go to the rope store down by the docks, deduct 10 gold from your sheet. Now you go to a tailor and find the cloak, deduct that gold. Now you go to the weaponsmith, deduct the cost of the sword."
It's easier to boil the interaction down to one store, taking one hour, rather than four stores taking 4 hours. That lets the player get back to smashing his enemies. It may not be particularly realistic, not every playstyle emphasizes realism on every niggling detail (and some not at all—I have heard of games where there were merchants with portable holes full of magic items waiting in the middle of dungeons).
I applaud the original poster. Several others have said that the OP is playing a high magic game, and that they're passing their opinion off as fact. I'll defend them, that what they've stated is true.
According to page 137 of the 3.5 DMG, a large town will have items for sale less than 3,000 gp; it specifically says:
Anything under the limit is most likely available. That means in a large town, you will be able to find a +1 any weapon you want, almost any 1st level spell in wand form (except probably identify, because of the material component), +1 armor or shields, +1 bracers, you get the picture. A metropolis has a limit of 100,000 gp, and by the time a wizard can cast teleport the players will be guaranteed access to a metropolis.
So, if you're limiting what your players can by beyond what the DMG says, then you are the one playing by house rules, not the OP. If you need a way to have this make sense, then just require some Gather Information checks if you need to track down an item post-haste.
While these are good arguments there are a few counters.
First, the language you quote is in a a subheading to the primary heading "Generating Towns." The primary heading indicates that these rules, including the ones you quote, apply when the DM "needs to generate facts about that town quickly." When the DM is designing his own cities from scratch rather than on the fly it's not clear per the RAW that he is bound by the quoted text. There is some indication in the language that the GP limit is supposed to be a rule for all communities (randomly generated or not) in that it says, "...exceptions are temporary; all communities will conform to the norm over time." (emphasis added) Unfortunately, read literally to apply to "all towns" and not just randomly generated ones these rules have two problems.
- (A) The rules seem to forbid high level NPCs from living in, or even visiting smaller communities, because they have "too much" money. The rules absolutely seem to absolutely forbid high level NPCs from ever selling any of their more valuable adventuring equipment to wandering PCs in those towns, no matter how realistic that might seem in a particular case.
- (B) The rules say that "anything" under the GP limit should be available (and absolutely nothing over it, which seems an oddly bright line to draw) with any exceptions to that rule being "temporary." Under that rule, one should be able to go to the Great Desert City of Landlockia and buy a warship (25,000 gp). All large cities and metropolises, no matter how landlocked, must have warships "available," never mind that there's no water to sail them on.
- (C) A similar problem arises when the PCs are personas non grata in a given community. If the PCs are outlaws in a given city, then one might want to conclude as a matter of realism that no one in the city who can identify them would want to doi business with them (especially using the medieval understanding of the term "outlaw" with all the punishments that would bring on anyone selling them goods). Under those circumstances, it might not be so easy for them to buy equipment there, even when it is otherwise "available."
For those reasons, I am not sure whether the intent was for RAW to apply the GP Limits to all cities, or just to randomly generated ones.
Second, and building on points (B) and (C) above, the rules only talk about items being "available." The word "available" does not necessarily mean sitting on a shelf in a shop with its owner intent on selling it instantaneously to the first person who pays the DMG price for it. The word "available" is not the same thing as "immediately available" (just Google the phrase "immediately available funds" and you'll get 1.3 million hits because lawyers know that requiring payment in "available funds" and "immediately available funds" are substantially different standards), let alone does it mean "available for immediate sale."
If you could have the item you want crafted, from scratch, in a given town, then the item is "available" there in the broader sense of that word. Similarly, if the item is hanging over the mayor's mantle as a memento of his adventuring days, the item is there and "available," but you might have to convince the mayor to sell it to you first. There is no hard and fast rule stating how one interprets the word "available" in this context. Under a broader interpretation of "available" all that needs to exist in the town is a capacity to produce the item in question, nothing says it has to be easy to have the item in fact produced and sold to the PCs. Certainly nothing says there needs to be a "store" or "stall" where merchants with pre-crafted magic item await the PCs.
Under the broader interpretation of "available," I note, the "warship" problem from (B) above and the outlaw problem with (C) above disappear. The answer to the warship problem is simply that the warship *is* "available," it's just that "available" in that case means that you could (in theory) have one constructed from scratch on special order, rather than meaning there is a pre-built warship just waiting there for a buyer ("navigable water not included"). As to the outlaw PC problem, sure, the wand of fireballs the player wants is "available" in a certain sense, but no one would make it for or sell it to the infamous mage whose face is on all the wanted posters.
Play an MMO, in many cases you will see people battling a certain enemy for hours on end to get a certain drop, or will go through some event or instance to battle a boss until they drop the desired item. On auction houses people can make a ton of gold simply by farming for items because there are dozens of people out there who want them. Because of this I would have to assume that some sort of magic item economy would come into existence based on crafting costs and other factors. The idea of a mage-mart is more of a dig at those of us who use item shops than anything else. Instead, let's consider that not all of us use one stop shops, for me these shops are a combination of guildhouses, domiciles of retired adventurers or collectors, alchemy labs, mage towers, and several high end merchants who are connected with an elite guild.
I think some DMs dislike magic item shops not out of 'realism' but because they fear players who make up shopping lists and will go out to buy their 'perfect' gear regardless of the treasure. This sort of thing can greatly irritate a DM who spent hours setting up an encounter and all the treasure.
Anything under the limit is most likely available. That means in a large town, you will be able to find a +1 any weapon you want,
I'd say in the event it's too bizarre a base weapon you might need to go to effort to find one.
almost any 1st level spell in wand form (except probably identify, because of the material component), +1 armor or shields, +1 bracers, you get the picture. A metropolis has a limit of 100,000 gp, and by the time a wizard can cast teleport the players will be guaranteed access to a metropolis.
And at that point, you still might need to custom order the bigger items.
Anything under the limit is most likely available. That means in a large town, you will be able to find a +1 any weapon you want, almost any 1st level spell in wand form (except probably identify, because of the material component), +1 armor or shields, +1 bracers, you get the picture.
Funny, and here I thought that "most likely" and "for certain" were different! "Most likely" is open to interpretation. You could see "most likely" as meaning 100% possible. You could see "most likely" as meaning 60% possible. Which means that almost half the items you may want aren't available. It's not that "you will find" something, but that "you may find" something.
There is nothing wrong with selling magic items in any way shape or form. Just like there is nothing wrong with not selling magic items in any way shape or form.
Potions are something everyone will want, so a potion vendor is easy to see. I'm sure any organized group of spellcasters will be able to offer Scrolls and common Wands.
Beyond that though, in my campaigns, I assume all magical items are made on commission. So yes, you can often find someone able to make them in a large community, but it takes time. When you confront the party with the concept that getting an item commissioned takes just as long as it would for a PC to create one (if not longer!) and costs twice as much (if not more!), an interesting thing happens.
My PC's start hoarding items, in hopes of trading them to a crafter (I assumed that a spell that functions like the Artificer ability, converting magic items to xp had to exist for NPC's, if nothing else) so they can get one powerful item. Which they then have to wait an adventure or two to get.
This makes the game a bit more challenging because they've offloaded almost all of their "circumstantial" items, but you should see the look on their faces when they get the item they think is "overpowered" for their level.
And yes, they get to blast something apart, and have a lot of fun doing it, which is what DnD is about.
I do still drop items into the game I think they'd like to have, but I'm less concerned about it. A lot of the treasure they find are somewhat situational, or hard to use. Like when they fought a Drider who had a two-bladed sword (keen +2/keen +2). A Large two-bladed sword, no less.
In a standard campaign, there would be no use for this item. The party is often not Large-sized, plus, this is an exotic weapon. The price tag on it is immense, so no one could buy it.
Only an Artificer or NPC crafter in my games could put it to use, by using it's power to make something of equivalent power, for a price.
So no, I don't see a burgeoning magical economy, not with the DMG price guidelines. But I do see a few dedicated individuals who can provide a service, with strings attached.
This allows characters to get what they want logically, although there is that waiting period to balance it, and let you worry less about what exact types of magical treasure the party finds.
It also quickly stresses how much more useful a PC crafter could be...
IDEA! By using simple supply and demand, we can set up our merchants guild right here! Think about how often you randomly roll an item useless to the party. Once they sell it, post it. Then another DM can say that it's available in his "Magic Shop." I'll tell you what, every merchant would have a ring of animal friendship...
BRILLIANT! You should really start that up, it could be very interesting, and I'd totally take part. Whenever the pcs went to the shop, you could just load up the thread and see whats for sale.
I applaud the original poster. Several others have said that the OP is playing a high magic game, and that they're passing their opinion off as fact. I'll defend them, that what they've stated is true.
According to page 137 of the 3.5 DMG, a large town will have items for sale less than 3,000 gp; it specifically says:
Anything under the limit is most likely available. That means in a large town, you will be able to find a +1 any weapon you want, almost any 1st level spell in wand form (except probably identify, because of the material component), +1 armor or shields, +1 bracers, you get the picture. A metropolis has a limit of 100,000 gp, and by the time a wizard can cast teleport the players will be guaranteed access to a metropolis.
So, if you're limiting what your players can by beyond what the DMG says, then you are the one playing by house rules, not the OP. If you need a way to have this make sense, then just require some Gather Information checks if you need to track down an item post-haste.
Using that rule is exactly what the DM did in the last campaign. Worked fine. If ya wanted some custom device you had to find someplace it could be made and see if someone would do it. There weren't any "magic shops". We'd have to spend some time hunting down rumors and researching sellers, and strangley enough if you wanted a magic weapon you went to a guy made/sold weapons. Need a spell-- Mages Guild or some wizard needs the income. Pawn shops had some interesting things lying about.
IMO you don't find the good stuff just lying around anyway-- you have to make it yourself or take it off a guy wasn't very good at using it. As a DM it's a great way to keep the PCs hungry-- spending into oblivion on keen longswords and whatever else. If there's a particular item you detest as a DM its just unavailable.
The base-line D&D game is high-magic-- and no balance is being tipped getting the PCs to buy gimcracky magic junk they think they need.
If you deviate from that, you deviate from the balance assumptions present within all of the current published D&D works, and you are on your own in figuring out an alternative system to balance those classes that do need magic items to function, and those that do not.
This is why this article has been published in the repository. It conforms with the party line- if you want D&D to function properly as it does out of the box, you shouldn't mess with the fundamental internals.
If you are not interested in playing D&D as it was meant by the designers, then you are not obligated to, and should not expect your method of play to be accomadated to in future supplements until the time comes when you've gathered enough support to make supporting your style of gaming profitable.
Magic shops have always been in D&D and have been a part of D&D since 1st edition. They are not a trope of Tolkien or Pratchett but rather Gygax. Let's not forget that D&D was probably 1/2 of the inspiration of anything fantasy related.
What's the message here? If you don't like the magic shop concept, then go back to the interwebs and find your own method of balancing things. You won't meet (Or CONFORM for you more squeamish types) the standards implied by the use of the "D&D" label and will benefit or suffer from the consequences thereof.
Well, there's only one problem with the idea of a magic item shop: experience. Experience is an out of game concept that's required to make magic items, and it's method of acquisition is most often through violent and life threatening methods. Is every merchant who deals in magic items a serial/mass murderer who breaks into the homes of undeveloped races to steal their possessions? You'd need to explain how they got the experience without turning every one of them into adventurers.
How does someone become that fabled 20th level commoner? They do their job.
You mention that experience's method of aquisition is most often violent and life threatening. What about the other types of gathering experience? There are social sitiuations, there are multiple different challenges in the average joe shmoe's life that are challenging, need to be overcomed, and grant him experience in the field of doing what he's doing. In fact, everything you do gives you an experience. What you take from it is your own, but it's there.
I don't believe that experience is a problem with a magic item shop.
I know that in one of the games I'm playing, the magic item shop that we stop by is run by a retired adventurer for adventurers.
40% of an average character's power is based on his Magic Items. Some more, a Fighter without his weapon and armour is essentially dead, a Monk can often get by with very little kit until he meets something with DR. Nevertheless, 40% is a good average figure. However, the Wealth by Level guidelines, which ultimately govern the amount of kit a character should have assume that a character not only has a given value of equipment, but that the equipment in question is actually useful.
63% of all statistics are made up on the spot. :P
On a more serious note, as you've already noted, each class has different dependancies on magical items. Plus, this will vary even more, depending on the campaign setting. Picking a number like 40% out of the air doesn't really mean anything.
Really, it's up to the DM to make sure that the PCs are equipped properly to deal with the challenges, either through giving out items as he sees fit, or by allowing the PCs to buy them. The DM will know best what power level the PCs should be at for any given challenge. Realistically, the PCs can bypass this anyway with a simple item creation feat or two.
Also, I think a lot of this sentiment comes from older editions. I clearly remember reading in the 2E DMG that magic item shops are a bad idea. This, of course, came from the days before item creation feats, back when magic item creation was a mystery.
Magic shops have always been in D&D and have been a part of D&D since 1st edition. They are not a trope of Tolkien or Pratchett but rather Gygax.
I think that's not what Gygax intended, at least as of the DMG, 1979.
Later on, modules might have had this, but he clearly states (paraphrasing) limit magic, keep players lean and hungry, beware Monty Haul, but don't make it impossible, either.
I certainly remember the D&D arcade games having players go into magic shops and purchasing silver bullets and potions of healing.
Even way back in Dragonlance, Mistress Jenna had her own magic shop.
I think that's not what Gygax intended, at least as of the DMG, 1979.
Later on, modules might have had this, but he clearly states (paraphrasing) limit magic, keep players lean and hungry, beware Monty Haul, but don't make it impossible, either.
Then Gygax ignored his own advice about impossible with a lot of his creations, things that led to the destruction of many a party.
Then Gygax ignored his own advice about impossible with a lot of his creations, things that led to the destruction of many a party.
The 1st edition DMG had a whole section worth of advice on the judicious placement of magic items in-game that warned against over-equipping players, allowing them to become like "Christmas trees decked out with tinsel and ornaments." It also warned DMs that "What is gotten cheaply is often held in contempt." That latter statement is the one thing that makes me regret magic item stores. Some of my players prefer getting gold rather than magic items as treasure, since you don't have to sell the gold for 1/2 value (and there's never any identifying or appraisals to be done with gold). Some part of me can't shake the notion that they should be happy, not disappointed, to find magic items in a hoard, but that's the game these days. Magic items are now something you generally buy, not find. It's like "Dungeons & Dragons & Department Stores."
It is ironic that Gygax's language cautioning moderation in magic item giveaways also includes cautions against "killer dungeons," something for which Gygax is well known. It's also strange that, despite the cautions against giving players access to too much magic, every item has a Sale Price listed right in the DMG. Players could sell magic items just fine in first edition.
The 1st edition DMG had a whole section worth of advice on the judicious placement of magic items in-game that warned against over-equipping players, allowing them to become like "Christmas trees decked out with tinsel and ornaments." It also warned DMs that "What is gotten cheaply is often held in contempt." That latter statement is the one thing that makes me regret magic item stores. Some of my players prefer getting gold rather than magic items as treasure, since you don't have to sell the gold for 1/2 value (and there's never any identifying or appraisals to be done with gold). Some part of me can't shake the notion that they should be happy, not disappointed, to find magic items in a hoard, but that's the game these days. Magic items are now something you generally buy, not find. It's like "Dungeons & Dragons & Department Stores."
It is ironic that Gygax's language cautioning moderation in magic item giveaways also includes cautions against "killer dungeons," something for which Gygax is well known. It's also strange that, despite the cautions against giving players access to too much magic, every item has a Sale Price listed right in the DMG. Players could sell magic items just fine in first edition.
While yes, it can be a bit annoying when the players run off to sell the items placed I also have to point out for the items to exist there has to be either some formal or informal market for the items or they have to be at near artifact rarity. The reason I say this is that unless the DM handcrafts each treasure horde there is going to be equipment that no one wants in it and that they probably won't use. While I can also see that the merchants might not want 1000000 potions of water-breathing I can see them wanting to get a rare item that they could sell or trade.
Much of it is also perspective, I actually like WoW for this reason, most low end magic items (greens) seem rather generic, they are the blade of the (beast) where the beast gives a few attribute bonuses. The blue and higher are the ones with true names and unique effects, I see it similarly in D&D. There are 'off the rack' magic items that can be commonly purchased but they are fairly generic, custom ordered items however will tend to develop a history and power all their own (hence my love of Weapons of Legacy)
Well, there's only one problem with the idea of a magic item shop: experience. Experience is an out of game concept that's required to make magic items, and it's method of acquisition is most often through violent and life threatening methods. Is every merchant who deals in magic items a serial/mass murderer who breaks into the homes of undeveloped races to steal their possessions? You'd need to explain how they got the experience without turning every one of them into adventurers.
The only reason that XP is put in for a cost for creating magic items and casting powerful spells is to try to prevent characters from getting too powerful to easily. The XP penalty to creating magic items is merely a game factor that represents nothing realistic. The money and the time costs are realistic, the XP, no way. Why would making lots of magical items get you farther and farther away from achieving another "level" or expertise in your crafting abilities? Yeah, granted you can't spend so much XP that you loose a level, but if you want to be realistic, the XP costs is just a harness to limit PC's.
IDEA! By using simple supply and demand, we can set up our merchants guild right here! Think about how often you randomly roll an item useless to the party. Once they sell it, post it. Then another DM can say that it's available in his "Magic Shop." I'll tell you what, every merchant would have a ring of animal friendship...
BRILLIANT! You should really start that up, it could be very interesting, and I'd totally take part. Whenever the pcs went to the shop, you could just load up the thread and see whats for sale.
Well, I decided to take up the initiative on this one, and do it myself. Figured I'd post a link here to see if anyone in this thread was also interested in the idea like planetouched and myself.
Delven's Emporium. Online Magic Item Economy
This is a flawed argument. It assumes that the characters cannot be effective at a given level unless they receive exactly the proper items, either through a market system or through DM fiat.
There are other ways to ensure that the characters will be able to meet challenges appropriate to their level.
1. The characters may choose to seek out appropriate items. They need better armor, they ask a sage where it might be found. Or the party wizard. Or the party bard. Or the party cleric. The appropriate PC or NPC rolls a knowledge/lore check to determine where such an item might be.
Option 1 is useful, because it allows the party to determine the adventure and the reward, plus allowing for optimization of equipment. The DM still has the option of putting his own spin on exactly what is available, but the player has input.
The disadvantage of this option is that it can distract from the main arc of an adventure, in that the PCs may decide that hunting for a Vorpal Sword is more important than saving the captured cliche'. Also, the PCs may not wish to help each other, and that may result in party friction.
2. The DM may specifically place treasure that, while not exactly what is needed, serves the purpose equally well. "Well, I was hoping for bracers of armor, but this amulet of natural armor is pretty sweet"
Option 2 is useful, because it allows the DM to shore up any gaps he has noticed in the party's offense or defense, while also allowing for the placement of adventure-specific items that will be needed later on.
The disadvantage of this option is that players get what they need, not what they think they need, and this can cause problems in that the player may feel restricted regarding playing exactly how they want to play. The player may start to feel cheated after a while.
3. The DM rolls random treasure for 13 or so encounters per level, and the PCs make do. "Damn, I was hoping for bracers of armor, but it looks like I'm stuck with this wand of barkskin". Or any of the multitudinous items available to increase AC.
Option 3 is useful in that it enforces creative thinking and makes for unique characters with unique equipment. Characters will value the items they receive that perfectly fit a need, while improvising on the fly to make not-so-useful items perform a needed task.
The disadvantage here is not so much that the player may feel cheated, it is just the roll of the dice, but that there may develop true discrepancies in the power level of the characters. Generally the characters get what they need over time, but certainly not always.
I use all of these options in varying degrees in my campaign. My base rule is that the dice fall where they may. Option 3. Treasure is random, monsters will use what they have if given the opportunity. If I begin to notice the disadvantage of uneven power distribution, I will use option 2 on a couple of treasures to even it out at my discretion. If a player decides that he is willing to quest for a certain item, he knows that option 1 is available to him.
None of these options destroy the satisfaction that a player gets upon acquiring a new item. It's not Monty Haul, and it doesn't prevent players from meeting equivalent challenges.
The items will have a history that the player is a part of. This history-building is one of the primary satisfactions of playing a character over an extended period. When you're at a con annoying someone with your character description, and they ask you how on earth you obtained your +5 Holy Avenger, you aren't stuck saying "Uh... bought it."
That said, purchasing items which appear only on the "minor" lists in the DMG is something I've generally allowed. Who cares about the story behind a low-level disposable item? Still, that option is generally only for parties that are missing a cleric or wizard.
Wizards and Clerics etc. are always free to use item creation feats as they see fit.
When an item is no longer useful, it generally means that a character has outgrown it. Often, this means handing the item down to a henchman or cohort, or caching it against an unfortunate Mordenkainen's Disjunction, sunder, or simple loss of the newer item.
I find that there are few truly useless items in the books. While that Helm of Underwater action may cost a load of money and kink the wealth by level guidelines, there is a reason it costs that much. It's a powerful item. I've found that my players can generally come up with a use for items like this. For instance, if you find a Helm of Underwater action, it's time to charter a ship out to the Keelbreaker Reefs, and go looking for some of the tons of gold that have been sent to the bottom in the hundreds of wrecks that lie at the ocean's floor around these treacherous rocks. Of course, the sahuagin who've been sighted in the area might not like it.
These are just how I deal with treasure in the game, and it's pretty much in line with the suggestions for placing treasure in the DMG.
If we follow the argument that players should be able to teleport to a metropolis at an instant's notice, liquidate whatever they currently own and replace it with exactly the equipment they want, there's no need to place treasure at all. Just distribute exactly 1/13.3rd of the suggested wealth by level abstractly each time the party finishes an equal-level encounter, etc. Or assign gold pieces to experience. Just figure the expected wealth a character is going to have for their entire career, divide it by the total experience they're expected to get, and whenever they get experience, the appropriate amount gold magically appears. This way, the DM doesn't have to roll up treasure, and the players are always playing with exactly the equipment they want. Everybody wins, right?
Under the broader interpretation of "available," I note, the "warship" problem from (B) above and the outlaw problem with (C) above disappear. The answer to the warship problem is simply that the warship *is* "available," it's just that "available" in that case means that you could (in theory) have one constructed from scratch on special order, rather than meaning there is a pre-built warship just waiting there for a buyer ("navigable water not included"). As to the outlaw PC problem, sure, the wand of fireballs the player wants is "available" in a certain sense, but no one would make it for or sell it to the infamous mage whose face is on all the wanted posters.
Entertained as I am by epistemological gambits such as the OP's 'your opinion is wrong' (meaning, one presumes, that what one thought one thought is not, in fact, what one thought) an oxymoron if ever I heard one, I feel that rational argument such as that above profferred by Pandaemoni is not required in this case.
The argument most worth making is simply that for fun. As puts it:
The treasure you find should be exciting and it should be the main source of stuff. Venturing down forgotten passageways is where the excitement is at - and finding stuff is part of that excitement. We feel that wielding the sword that you seized from horde of necklegrubbe the arch fiend has more history and character than the sword you bought from you local branch of Tesco's or Walmart. In short your character using adventure found equipment is more "characterful" and interesting than using magic shop treasure..
Exactly. Ignoring the rhetorical point that by introducing the Strider example the OP uses an argument they claim to eschew, one can observe that Strider at least does not say 'Look here, vertically disadvantaged persons, here are swords that I have purchased for you from Walmart. It matters not which you take, they are identical.'
For the practically minded DM, it is easier to bestow fun upon the party if the lewt is phat. It is obvious that if the phat lewt is in the shoppe, then the DM has deprived herself of a useful source of fun in exchange for handing out power in the shape and shininess players want, all at once. An apothecary may hold a range of potions too basic to be especially interesting; the clerisy may indeed offer scrolls similarly, but anything really good should come as treasures wrested from evil, gifts bestowed by the good, or the hard won rewards of tomb-raiding.
Does no one understand the principle any more, that things that are scarce are more desirable when found? Is not the glimpse of white knickers, or the ripple of a shoulder muscle, more titillating than everything off all at once?
And in robust contrarian argumentative form, I will note too that 'available' refers to a potential, not an outcome.
As for having them sold second hand because there's no market large enough to support the economy, that's nonsensical. The real world market, for, say, RVs is fairly small. But RVs are really expensive, making each sale 2 things: very profitable and a significant investment. If I'm going to buy an RV, I don't want to buy it from some random car salesman because he sells similar things and RVs by extension. I want to buy from someone who knows what they're talking about and specializes.
I imagine the same would be true for magic items.
RV's are a pretty good metaphor, really:
The city I live in has an RV dealership. When I moved here, it was the first time in my life I had seen such a thing, and it's not like I'd never been to a big city.
When I see ads for companies that make RVs, "How to buy" usually involves a trip to their factory. Occasionally, like Ferrari, they will have a list of 3 to 5 dealerships throughout the country, but that's it.
If you want a nifty magic sword, I really do think you're likely to hear something similar: "There's this guy, it's about 1500 miles from here but he's the only one on this side of the mountains, he knows all about those things, and he'll have what you're looking for, or can custom make it."
Or, you could pick up a copy of RV Trader, a publication that survives on the idea that these things are hard enough to come by that folks'll gladly travel to another state to purchase one used.
(The smallish city I grew up near (pop.15,000) had a U-Haul rental place that also did RV repair, and as a result occasionally had a used RV out front for sale. But I never saw them with 2.)
Yep, I think trying to buy a high-end specialized magic item is a lot like buying an RV.
Yes, in terms of economics, people will barter whether or not magic item shops exist. (In fact, here is where the uneducated can get soaked by selling an heirloom +3 longsword as a mere masterwork weapon.) Others have more than adequately pointed out the demand side of the equation; adventurers tend to be loaded with cash will definitely give magic item shops plenty of business. So where's the flaw?
Supply.
This isn't an industry, folks. Products on the shelves of Wal-Mart are mass-produced by industries, so they can respond to variations in demand. Because a medieval world -- even enhanced with magic -- seriously lacks production capacity, mundane quality equipment is hard enough to come by. Magic items would be in even tighter supply; you're at the mercy of whatever you find.
When people make magic items, they do so for a reason. It costs time, money, and life force (XP). To do so for profit is plausible, but who'd bother? The most common use of wealth is to raise one's standard of living, but a mage capable of crafting magic items is perfectly capable of making a living and enhancing one's lifestyle without toiling away long hours making item after item. For the most part, magic items are created by people who intend to use them. As such, perishable magic items (such as a wand of cure light wounds) are obtained by pulling them out of the creator's cold, dead hands. Durable magic items take more time to make. In the rare instance someone makes magic items purely for pride, I'd use Stradivarius as an analogy. Pride equals high quality equals high demand. Stradivarius made hundreds of masterwork instruments in his lifetime, and every single one of them is in very, very high demand.
Long story short, it's entirely possible for magic item shops to exist, but the words "in stock" shouldn't apply. The way I see it, a magic item shop would be similar to a secondhand store (except with sky-high prices and slow inventory turnover). It'd contain dozens to hundreds of magic items, but the selection would be driven by supply, not demand. The store owner doesn't order high-demand items wholesale; s/he can only sell what happens to come in. If you want a +3 sword, you don't just pluck it off a shelf. You'd have to sort through all kinds of gadgets and doohickeys, most of which are marginally magical, damaged, or not what you're looking for. Maybe, if you're lucky enough, you'll find and identify a +3 longsword family heirloom some poor fool sold to the store.
In game terms, the most important skill in a magic item shop isn't Diplomacy; it's Search. Even then, the percentage chance a desired item exists at all should be both random and fixed. If it ain't there, taking 20 on your Search check isn't going to make a difference -- except you've wasted a lot of time. At some point, it's time to say, "I'd rather be adventuring."
No pesky shopping at all. Elven cloaks for everyone! They grow on trees, after all. Rope of Climbing? I think I've got one lying around that you can have. Phial of glowing starlight that repels scary spiders? Sure, not like we have any scary spiders here in elfland, I have no idea why I've been sitting on the darn thing.
Frodo was the hardest to shop for, at 1st level, he already had three equipment slots filled with his mithral shirt, magic sword and magic ring, and then they ran into that old crazy dude who rescued them from a tree, and gave them magic swords, and then went to Rivendell, and got more phat loot, and then on to Galadriel's Magic Emporium (Everything must go! We will not be undersold!)...
Tolkien was *majorly* Monty Haul, compared to standard AD&D.
Also, it's not just Tolkien. Most high fantasy eschews the "Magical Walmart" concept, except for Harry Potter (judging from the movies, I've never read the books). Magic Item shops give the game more of a "video game" feeling that I dislike, rather than the "high fantasy" feeling that I do like.
Actually, apart from the LotR series, Tolkien's world is a high-level high-magic realm. Hell, most of the elves in the Silmarillion have at least Divine Rank 0, and many have higher. By the time LotR comes around, as is noted in the books themselves, magic is LEAVING the world. It's almost gone.
Actually, apart from the LotR series, Tolkien's world is a high-level high-magic realm. Hell, most of the elves in the Silmarillion have at least Divine Rank 0, and many have higher. By the time LotR comes around, as is noted in the books themselves, magic is LEAVING the world. It's almost gone.
My point was more that in the high fantasy series with which I am most familiar (including Tolkien)—however much magic there is (often quite a lot)—that magic items and effects are usually *not* traded in any sort of highly liquid market of the sort the OP seems to prefer. Tolkien had a number of highly powerful creatures and magic rings, for example, but you couldn't buy a magic ring at the nearest major city.
In the books I have ready, magic items tend to be the sorts of things that one finds while questing or that are given to the character either as a reward or as a gift when great challenges loom, not "bought and sold like milk and eggs."
My point was more that in the high fantasy series with which I am most familiar (including Tolkien)—however much magic there is (often quite a lot)—that magic items and effects are usually *not* traded in any sort of highly liquid market of the sort the OP seems to prefer. Tolkien had a number of highly powerful creatures and magic rings, for example, but you couldn't buy a magic ring at the nearest major city.
In the books I have ready, magic items tend to be the sorts of things that one finds while questing or that are given to the character either as a reward or as a gift when great challenges loom, not "bought and sold like milk and eggs."
Yes, but that is because in that world wizards and other magic users are rare. In D&D almost everyone can use magic and everyone who does so can potentially make items using that magic. Unless you are putting a restriction on magic users or how magic items are made there is no reason there would be a limited number of them.
My point was more that in the high fantasy series with which I am most familiar (including Tolkien)—however much magic there is (often quite a lot)—that magic items and effects are usually *not* traded in any sort of highly liquid market of the sort the OP seems to prefer. Tolkien had a number of highly powerful creatures and magic rings, for example, but you couldn't buy a magic ring at the nearest major city.
In the books I have ready, magic items tend to be the sorts of things that one finds while questing or that are given to the character either as a reward or as a gift when great challenges loom, not "bought and sold like milk and eggs."
I can understand your perspective but there is a very simple question, what happens to older items? Are they simply discarded when the new one comes along? If I get a +4 sword of awesome do I then just abandon my +2 sword of decent? Item shops are probably trade dens where adventurers pawn off their old stuff. I do agree that the players shouldn't be getting the most powerful gear from shops but the fact of the matter is that there would realistically be some form or another of brokerage for the items, maybe even collectors, but if players can sell items, why can't they buy them as well?
I can understand your perspective but there is a very simple question, what happens to older items? Are they simply discarded when the new one comes along? If I get a +4 sword of awesome do I then just abandon my +2 sword of decent? Item shops are probably trade dens where adventurers pawn off their old stuff. I do agree that the players shouldn't be getting the most powerful gear from shops but the fact of the matter is that there would realistically be some form or another of brokerage for the items, maybe even collectors, but if players can sell items, why can't they buy them as well?
You could sell it, but the question is "how liquid is the market?"
In a world without eBay, if I were to buy a awesome stereo for my place, then later found and even more awesome stereo, selling the first one might not be so easy. I'd have to locate a buyer willing to meet my price and that might not be as easy as I'd like. You might go to a pawn shop, but let's say you want to sell the pawn shop a +2 sword. Does the pawnbroker really have 4,075+ gold pieces just laying around to pay you for it? Assuming he has at least one-quarter of his total wealth available in liquid form at the moment you walk through the door (which may or may not be true), he has to be at least 9th level to even afford it at that moment. Even assuming he has the cash on hand, would this 9th level character *want* to tie up that much of his wealth in a single, eminently filchable, item? Maybe, maybe not. Looking at those difficulties, suppose he later finds he needs cash in a hurry, whill the pawnbroker be able to find a buyer for the +2 sword in short order? Presumably, he generally waits for buyers to come to him...he may not see a buyer with the 8150+ gold price at which he wants to sell that sword (assuming the one-quarter rule applies to buyers, the buyer would have to be about 12th level under the wealth guidelines for NPCs). He might well have to wait a long time before someone like that enters his shop, let alone some one like that who actually wants the sword. Will the pawnbroker be able to keep thieves at bay long enough to find a buyer?
The high cost limits the number of purchasers (like pawnbroker) who can afford it, and the potential illiquidity of owning the +2 sword rather than having cash on hand and the risk of theft further limit this pool of buyers on the basis of their risk profiles. (That's not to mention the risk that you're tricking him into buying a fake "magic" sword...not every pawnbroker can be a wizard with 100 gp pearls on hand, and, even then, Nystul's Magic Aura can be a ***** if the pawnbroker is unlucky with his Will save).
(Perhaps oddly, the world where I would think selling magic items would be hardest would be Eberron...the prices of even mundane magic items is very high relative to the average NPC level. I can see that they'd have a liquid market for minor magical items, but you'd have to be a figure of very great renown in Eberron in order to be able to even afford a +2 sword...so how liquid could that market really be for those items? Sure, there are a lot of crafters in Eberron (and so a lot more items to be sold), but the increased supply is not accompanied by a concomitant drop in prices that I'd expect to see in a more dynamic economy. I can see how you might "special order" an item and then wait for it to be crafted, but—given the stingy wealth-by-level rules and the "low level" nature of most NPCs in that setting—that an NPC would have a +2 sword sitting on a shelf waiting (hoping!) for a buyer is nearly unthinkable given the large capital investment needed to acquire that sword in the first place and the liquidity risk and other risks any such buyer would be bearing in keeping it in inventory.)
As for what normally happens to older magic items, I can imagine many alternatives. One is that you save it to give it as a reward the next time you need the help of some hireling, cohort or sidekick, like many local rulers I've seen have done in game with the PCs being the recipient of the largess. You could gift them to your followers or family members. You could distribute them to Sam, Merry, Frodo and Pippin when you discover they are unarmed. You could stash them in your "hoard." (Why do other characters keep magic swords in chests in their bases/lairs, but players never do?) You could hang them over the fireplace. I have a football from my college days that I keep as a memento (though surely I could afford a "better" ball).
I certainly can see why a character might well "want" to sell the +2 sword though...not every character wants a hoard, is sentimental, uses hirelings, or even "has friends." A mercenary character might easily think selling the item is the best alternative. "Wanting" to sell something though, doesn't mean there's a readily accessible market for it. Whether there is a market depends on a myriad of factors affecting supply and demand...all subject to the screwy and unrealistic rule that prices are "fixed." In the real world, fixed prices do not bode well for the health and liquidity of the market.
I can understand your perspective but there is a very simple question, what happens to older items? Are they simply discarded when the new one comes along? If I get a +4 sword of awesome do I then just abandon my +2 sword of decent? Item shops are probably trade dens where adventurers pawn off their old stuff. I do agree that the players shouldn't be getting the most powerful gear from shops but the fact of the matter is that there would realistically be some form or another of brokerage for the items, maybe even collectors, but if players can sell items, why can't they buy them as well?
Well, in most high fantasy worlds characters don't encounter enough magic items that they would want to sell them. But then most high fantasy heros go on 1-6 quests that lead up to a finale and their 1-5 magic items are powerful enough to see them through.
In Dungeons & Dragon's this model doesn't quite work because magic items which are powerful enough to be useful at high levels are too powerful at low levels. I've been thinking of introducing items which scale along with the characters as they go up in level. Similar in concept to "Weapons of Legacy" but I think the fact that the WOL require you take a special class is kind of weak.
I try to keep magic kind of low in my world only because logically when magic is in use there is no reason why you can't magically short cut and create almost any modern convenience or futureistic ones. An empowerd maximized level 10 wand of magic missle would actually do more damage then a Star Wars blaster and you don't even have to aim.
I don't see Azezel as wrong in putting forward such logic; i just think that using that logic in my game world opens up an Bag of holding of worms.
Well, in most high fantasy worlds characters don't encounter enough magic items that they would want to sell them . . . In Dungeons & Dragon's this model doesn't quite work because magic items which are powerful enough to be useful at high levels are too powerful at low levels.
I disagree. Magic items provide power -- nothing more, nothing less -- so it's possible to get an equivalent boost from a single powerful item as many lesser ones without disrupting game balance. Basically, the "fairy tale" model works just fine.
I personally use a "quality over quantity" approach when I distribute magic items. I'll scatter lesser items here and there, but I won't hesitate to put a +3 sword in the hands of a 3rd-level fighter. To compensate, I just don't flood the game with evenly distributed trinkets. Overall, a fighter with a +3 weapon and nothing else has no distinct advantage over a fighter with a +1 weapon, +1 armor, +1 shield, +1 amulet of natural armor, +1 ring of protection, gauntlets of ogre power and a pile of other lesser items that provide various benefits outside combat. (As an aside, this is why I don't cap spending limits for character creation above 1st level.) The fighter with the +3 weapon also feels special and will be happy with that weapon for half a campaign, whereas the character loaded with +1 items getting a few +2 items on schedule feels like a '72 Plymouth getting its brake pads replaced.
Instead of having the entire party go through several phases of across-the-board upgrades every few levels, I vary the quality and quantity of items so characters generally have a few "overpowered" items, some yet a chronic shortage of decent ones and a small pile of items they use because they have nothing better. Game balance is preserved and I can steadily introduce powerful items without creating a pile of obsolete magical junk. Some items introduced early in the campaign are used right until the very end; they're just complemented with other items along the way.
Back on subject, this works with my concept of magic item shops. While they do exist, they seldom can provide the characters with what they're looking for, and the characters never have many items they'd part with. The world isn't flooded with evenly distributed magic items, and the wild variation in quality naturally causes useful items to gravitate towards active adventurers before they reach any shopkeeper.
The magic shop raises another sociological point that I think is missed. Magic is like technology and if innovative enough to be useful will filter its way out into social use. What king in their right mind would not have plant growth cast on the farms to increase his taxable base (and since that doesn't even require xp it could be a service in lue of taxes from druids). Then of course you have frictionless carts ( levitate spells). Though super simple these would change the basic fabric of the world. In fact magic would probably quickly overtake technical development. If you came to the point where you had Magic 7-11's (small quick stop magic shops with basic common items that would exist in every town). YOU might as well revive Bard in a Box (stereos) message wands (cell phones). And massive engines for manual task by binding elementals to turbines like wind mills and water mills.
I try to keep magic kind of low in my world only because logically when magic is in use there is no reason why you can't magically short cut and create almost any modern convenience or futuristic ones. An empowered maximized level 10 wand of magic missile would actually do more damage then a Star Wars blaster and you don't even have to aim.
I don't see Azezel as wrong in putting forward such logic; I just think that using that logic in my game world opens up an Bag of holding of worms.
True, but there is also something to be said for reasonably looking at the cost of magic items. Creating wands is no easy or cheap feat. While you might be able to make multiple use sending stones you have walkie-talkies with one mile range. Eberron shows a fairly logical extension of magic as tech, before the fractious last war artificers made the equivalents of streetlights, a mass transit system, even advanced seagoing vessels and airships. However these things were made on the commission of the dragonmarked houses (corporation/cartel) and cost money to ride or were (in the case of the streetlights and other minor conveniences) covered by taxes.
Even in Eberron you can't really buy big items 'off the rack', you can probably purchase minor magic items, maybe even a couple moderate ones, from Cannith or a few of the very high end shops/ traders from Xen'drik. However, anything more than that you need to contact house Cannith, set up a meeting, get on a waiting list, place your order, and then wait the crafting time while paying for the item. And all of that is assuming that they are interested in using their resources.
I should explain something, I do believe in magic item shops but I also agree that the biggest and best stuff shouldn't be coming out of shops. By that same token, however, it is also not incumbent on me to place only items in the treasure horde that the party will use. The MIC points out that DMs almost have to customize treasure to keep it from being sold off left and right, this isn't a side effect of item shops the way some argue it, just a matter of utility. If a party has over 10000 water breathing potions but never have a sea based adventure then maybe they should be able to sell or trade the stuff.
And let's not kid ourselves, each of us has a different interpretation of magic item shops. Some imagine a department store setup in which any item at all can be purchased if you have the coin. I see them more as trade dens and highly secure upscale shops (heavily guarded and you can only get in if you're on the list). In one homebrew campaign someone did try to rob the item shop, broke into the back room and found nothing save a cubic gate which he walked through, next thing he knew he was facing a line of angry dwarves who were guarding a central magic weapon and armor repository for the merchants guild. (this was how magic items moved in this setting, each merchant that was a member of the guild and paid his dues was given a cubic gate that led to a series of vaults, his assistant would enter, give the order and the coin/traded item, and then emerge with the requested item if it existed. If no such item existed within the vaults then the adventurer would be given an equivalent mark of credit for one of the fabrication guilds to produce said item.
#1 How common is magic in your setting? Magic Items don't grow in dungeons. They are made by practitioners of magic, and generally very powerful ones. Some settings, like Lord of the Rings, Dark Sun, or Dying Earth portray the use of magic as a obscure and erudite subject, studied only by very few. In other settings, like Ebberon or Ravnica it is considered a standard profession, even a hobby to some people. Obviously, the greater number of people in a world that can use magic, the greater number that can (and will) create magic items.
Which leads to...
#2 How strong of an economy does the world have? Standard D&D contends that since magical items are so costly and time-consuming to produce, each one is made as a unique item for a specific purpose, or person. This is because standard D&D is based on Tolkien's novels (and those like him), which were set in a medieval world, where craftsman production and putting-out distribution had not yet been replaced with the factory model and widespread trade. Even the "abundant magic" Ebberon does not mass produce magical items of note. A Pot of Flameless Cooking might be easily found in a village market square. A Staff of the Magi probably won't be. In such a model it is easy to see why a wizard would not want to devote 40 years studying magic, only to spend his retirement years making wands of Knock for would-be adventurers.
#3 How realistic is the setting meant to be? All this talk about supply and demand economics has me wondering if some of you are playing a game or writing a term paper. Industry follows necessity. Even in a world laden with enchanted pots, lanterns, plows and carriages, some of the items in the DMG are never going to have broad appeal. Thus they are not going to be made in high quantity, and you're back to the "unique request" model. Why, exactly, would anyone make a Rod of the Viper? If you are making a "realistic" economy for a fantasy world, which is completely doable, then you must ask yourself "who made this items, and how is it used" for every single item you introduce.
However, you must first answer the final question.
4# How willing am I to subvert my first three answers in order to make the game thrilling and enjoyable for my players? I just said D&D is a game. Magic items are one part of that game- a part that makes the game more exciting. If you PC's are getting their rumps returned to them in a bucket every time they enter the "Penultimate Elemental Temple of Doomy Darkness", you will soon find your worldbuilding efforts have been reduced to a stroll in your own imagination. If the characters need stuff, then give it to them. So what if its contrived. They'll stop questioning why the village curio shop had a Flametongue Greateaxe the moment they use said axe to chop a troll's head off.
In Dungeons & Dragon's this model doesn't quite work because magic items which are powerful enough to be useful at high levels are too powerful at low levels. I've been thinking of introducing items which scale along with the characters as they go up in level. Similar in concept to "Weapons of Legacy" but I think the fact that the WOL require you take a special class is kind of weak.
I've sort of handled this by using scaling along with character improvement along the lines of (I Believe) the Ancestral Weapon feat or something similar.
I let the PC improve their weapon (say their "grandfather's sword") by osmosis or what have you, and they use the gold they have as treasure in other manners (by making contributions or large payments for something or other in the campaign world).
That way, the PC gets a sword their player wants o use and does it through a way tied to the story, with a roleplaying challenge to design the tie-in and the requisite payment of treasure to something.
The way I see it, an adventurer simply outgrows their community after a while. The local wizard can't keep up with their demands, and they branch out or special order as has been said by others here. Or make their own stuff, which again requires resources they don't have ready access to; how many small towns have a 1000 gp gem just kicking around for instance?
A treasure haul or a huge metropolis, or a reward from a friendly NPC seem to me the best ways to give PC's powerful magic, or as has already been said, a slow acquisition of lesser magics and valuables for future trade.
There is a lot to be said for not being able to buy a Holy Avenger or such, but I see no reason there can't be an occasional NPC selling minor magics. If any of you have ever played Planscape:Torment, I thought the magic items distributed were well placed- numerous due to the nature of the city, very useful, but impossible to keep around because of their utility and the fact they were largely one-use items. On the other hand, playing through Baldur's Gate (PS2) and the sequel I thought it was incredibly goofy after a while how much crap you ended up having and just selling because there was so bloody much junl that while not bad, was overshadowed by what you'd already acquired. Kicking apart chests containing +4 weapons with four abilities had me laughing out loud and leaving it all on the dungeon floor.
1 : unless they are skilled at magic most shopkeepers won't be able to judge correctly the magic properties of the magic items. This would open a be can of worms for the sorcerer/bard and/or thief with bluff skills. --> "this here my fellow trader is a can full of magical beans. And just for you I'll trade them for that wonderful masterwork full plate armor. Of course this can provide plot hooks as players would be hunted down or the opposite if they got stripped of 57,000 for an underwater helm.
2 : in most big cities the mages guild will surely restrict magic items creation providing a counter to a magic flood on the market. And they would also probably dislike competition unless they actually got a part of the revenu as taxes or guild fees, etc.
Personally, i allow magic items trades at the usual 40%-60%(so players think twice about just selling there "junk" ) exchange rate so players do think.
I do agree that at some point there are just so many +1 longsword you can carry without crumbling to the ground and that at some point the players WILL want to trade them for something better.
As far as experience for the magic items come from(can't remember the poster who talked about it) well if you give players experience from RP or quest or campaign or training, why wouldn't the wizards in the guilds or the clerics in the temple also gain some xp from religious rituals or magical studies, for creating new spells from bartering with the adventurers who come to trade, etc... At some Eberron as also introduced a great class for item creation which is an artificer (well before Eberron i think some people also introduced it as a PRC which is the version i use cause i believe that an artificer should have some basic magic knowledge before jumping into all that item creations stuff).
At least I will agree though everyone has their own preferences and that "each is own" is also always my personal favorite phrase when entering this kind of debate. This thread entered a slippery road with its title and should have been titled "DMs talks on campaign magic item creation, this have while providing some insight on the ins and outs of magic items trades would have kept people whose preferences differ from arguing on ... well ... preferences.
good day
You could sell it, but the question is "how liquid is the market?"
In a world without eBay, if I were to buy a awesome stereo for my place, then later found and even more awesome stereo, selling the first one might not be so easy. I'd have to locate a buyer willing to meet my price and that might not be as easy as I'd like. You might go to a pawn shop, but let's say you want to sell the pawn shop a +2 sword. Does the pawnbroker really have 4,075+ gold pieces just laying around to pay you for it?
You're comparing 2 entirely different things: a stereo is (relatively) cheap. A +2 sword is not. A more accurate analogy might be:
You just bought a totally sweet new Maclaren. Now what to do with your Lexus, which still has low mileage and is in all respects 'like new'? You can sell it yourself, but you're going to have a hard time of it: people don't like buying secondhand cars for more than a couple grand. So you take it to a dealership, which let's you trade it in for a fair-ish price.
Magic items that cost much more than a few hundred gp (which it isn't unreasonable for a merchant or artisan to have on hand) are specialty items, like luxury cars: they are certainly available, but you need to go somewhere that focuses on buying and selling such items. Cheaper items (and cheaper cars) are still sort of specialized, but less so. For example, there are at least 20 car dealerships within 20 miles of my home, but of those, only 4 sell luxury cars: a Hummer dealership, a BMW dealership, a Jaguar dealership and a Porsche dealership. The other 16 sell cheaper cars (Dodge, Chrysler, Ford, etc).
There IS a large and prospering market for very very expensive items, like luxury cars and magic items, but those in the market were likely wealthy before they entered in the first place; the magic item salesman probably has thousands of gp stashed away for slow months.
Then there's sundry Spellcasters. I don't know how much it costs to build a Cathedral of Pelor, but I do know how much profit the church makes from every Wand of Cure Light Wounds it sells (375gp), and they certainly have a big market (every adventuring party ever). That's supply and demand then.
So they're using divine power to make a quick buck? Hardly sounds good. What about the peasant who cuts himself on a scythe or blacksmith who burns his hand. 375GP for a CLW? Sure they may sell them to adventurers who go looking for trouble but they may also just ask them to help the peasants, help build the temple or pray to Pelor and study his strictures.
Also by burning XP making potions en masse they're not advancing as clerics of Pelor.
The magic mart makes little sense for divine magic IMO.
The idea of adventurers trading in magic items makes some sense if you have a lot of adventurers. But I'd imagine if you want a magic mart, it'd be a lot like the art market - with wildly variable prices.
The argument that to find useful magic items the DM has to is always totally unlikely is not true since the party may actually go LOOKING for items they need. The old fantasy chestnut where a certain item is needed to beat old Evilsocks and a band quests to find that item comes to mind.
You're comparing 2 entirely different things: a stereo is (relatively) cheap. A +2 sword is not. A more accurate analogy might be:
You just bought a totally sweet new Maclaren. Now what to do with your Lexus, which still has low mileage and is in all respects 'like new'? You can sell it yourself, but you're going to have a hard time of it: people don't like buying secondhand cars for more than a couple grand. So you take it to a dealership, which let's you trade it in for a fair-ish price.
Magic items that cost much more than a few hundred gp (which it isn't unreasonable for a merchant or artisan to have on hand) are specialty items, like luxury cars: they are certainly available, but you need to go somewhere that focuses on buying and selling such items. Cheaper items (and cheaper cars) are still sort of specialized, but less so. For example, there are at least 20 car dealerships within 20 miles of my home, but of those, only 4 sell luxury cars: a Hummer dealership, a BMW dealership, a Jaguar dealership and a Porsche dealership. The other 16 sell cheaper cars (Dodge, Chrysler, Ford, etc).
There IS a large and prospering market for very very expensive items, like luxury cars and magic items, but those in the market were likely wealthy before they entered in the first place; the magic item salesman probably has thousands of gp stashed away for slow months.
First, I asked the question "Is the market liquid?", then I made my analogy. I was not answering the question ("The market is illiquid"), I was merely giving an example of an illiquid market and how it might apply in the context of magic items.
I might also take issue with your analogy by pointing out there while there is a liquid secondary market for cars in the real world (even expensive ones), that is not true with respect to every item of similar worth (though the internet is mitigating that to some extent). Internet aside, Art, for example and as someone noted, has generally had a notoriously illiquid market (with the exception of jewelry). Real estate, antiques, race horses, there is no rule that says markets for expensive items have any more liquidity than markets for less expensive ones.
The question is whether the liquidity exists.
I do agree that it is possible that, in some worlds, a liquid market might form for magic items, but there are some curious features of D&D that make me wonder.
First, "magic item" is too broad a term. I would imagine that liquid markets would be more likely to develop for certain kinds of items than others, where the risk of acquiring a non-performing asset would be less. Weapons and armor might well fall into that category, since if someone wants to buy a +2 mace from you, he might well settle for the +1 morningstar that you have in stock. If some rogue wants a +1 studded leather, he might also consider the +1 chain shirt in a pinch. On the other hand, if you pick up the helm of underwater action...good luck finding a buyer. You need to wait for the gods to lead that one man who wants the helm of underwater action and has that much money to spend.
The relatively higher level of fungibility amongst weapons and amongst types of armor make them relatively attractive as inventory goes. On the other hand, wondrous items, rods, rings and staves are all over the place in terms of their functionality. (Though you might have a cross-category market for items with particular traits, like say items that help you travel, where the boots of springing and striding might be right next to the rings of free action).
Second, if you take the NPC wealth by level chart from the MIC seriously, no single NPC could ever hope to fund such a store except with respect to low end items. Liquidity means having cash on hand and payable. Maybe NPCs shop owners all have sizable revolvers they can call on (which wouldn't impact their "wealth" since every time they draw on the revolver, gaining cash, they'd also create an offsetting liability, the loan they then have to repay), or maybe the store owners all are part of of some extensive partnership or corporate structure, combining the wealth of many NPCs--but the cash has to come from somewhere. The most likely explanation I suppose is that all store owners are very high level...possibly even epic.
It seems to me the most likely way to sell most magic items would be "at auction." Of course the rules do not support such a thing, what with the fixed pricing of everything, but it auctions are very efficient ways of connecting buyers with items that might not be in regular demand. Plus, it solves the store owner liquidity problem. The auctioneer doesn't buy the item from the seller, he just advertises that it is for sale and then takes a commission if it sells (and perhaps a fee to list it in the first place). If an adventurer finds the helm of underwater action in a dungeon somewhere, the auctioneer doesn't have to worry about paying the many thousands of gold (thus tying up capital) only to watch it sit on his shelf collecting dust. If it doesn't sell, he collects his listing fee from the seller, then hands the helm back to him or her.
(In addition to the "all prices are fixed" issue, it's also true that running a game world with such auctions would be a logistical pain, so I'm not advocating it. The pain though, is much like the issue of what a conventional store owner might have in stock at any moment. The real birth of the MageMart, imo, is not the economic reality of it, it's just that it is too much of a hassle to randomly determine what items a given store owner has. Of course, economic reality has no true home in D&D, because D&D has both fixed prices and inherently clear markets.)