Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kyuketsukiouji Jan 30, 2006 18:54:49	Ever since the Sorcerer came out in 3.0e, I've loved the class concept. But, like many, it rapidly became apparent to me that the class was poorly balanced against the Wizard. That's not to say it wasn't a decent class, but it lagged behind its more familiar precursor. Lack of quicken, lack of useful class skills, lack of means to shore up its weaknesses and play its strengths, the Sorcerer was the red-headed stepchild of full caster classes. Though I disliked the very idea of a 3.5 edition, I'd at least hoped they'd fix the Sorcerer to put it on an even footing with the Cleric/Druid/Wizard triad (though even that triad is, I'll admit, very uneven). Alas, when 3.5 came out, at first, only one change had been made to the Sorcerer (spell swap), while the Wizard got even more goodies. It looked like the poor little Sorcerer would continue to be the abandoned waif of the full caster class family. And then, things slowly, subtly began to change. It was hardly noticeable at first, and very often drowned out in a sea of massive changes. It's hardly surprising that people didn't notice the little Sorcerer getting a few crumbs when Clerics were getting 7-course banquets, Divine Metamagic-style, Druids got their cake and then some with Natural Spell, and Wizards laughed all the way to the bank with Spontaneous Metamagic and Metamagic Rods. But, crumb by crumb, the little Sorcerer started to shape up into something pretty decent. It started in the 3.5e Player's Handbook with Use Magic Device. In 3.5 "exclusive skills" became a thing of the past. I'm sure practically no one cared that Animal Empathy stopped being a Druid/Ranger-only skill, but no doubt some people perked up when they realised Use Magic Device was now open to anyone. Our little Sorcerer, with her maxed-out Charisma, was a prime candidate to use the skill to its best effect. Sure, the skill was cross-class, but 1/2 a skill was heck of a lot better than none. Suddenly the little Sorcerer could use every scroll, wand, or trinket out there, for free. The Wizard certainly couldn't do that. Then, the DMG gave a crumb: Staves. Staves, like wands, rods, scrolls and anything else, were never a good thing to use in critical situations (like battle), because they had a fixed DC. But now, staves took the best DC between their own and their user's. Which means for the little Sorcerer, a staff with a few spells that she didn't know was actually a worthwhile addition to her arsenal. Before, if she didn't know Chain Lightning, she was stuck using a really sub-par version out of a stick, but now. she could put her whole power behind it! Sure, the Wizard could do the same, but odds were, if a Wizard wanted Chain Lightning, he'd just find it and scribe it in his book, anyways. There was a dearth of good crumbs for a while, but then, Dragon Magazine 333 introduced another fine gem: Knowstones (and if anyone at Wizards reads this, knowstones need to be in a book, anywhere, now. Not everyone buys Dragon). Ahh, knowstones! A lot of us had made those (I know I did, on the boards here, and Monte on his site). Finally, the little Sorcerer had a way to add to her spells known! That a class could go for years without a way to shore up its major weakness like that was plain meanness. The Wizard had ways to hide his spellbook and restore used up spells for ages (Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer, Leomund's Secret Chest). Clerics and Druids already knew all their spells! A few good knowstones, and the little Sorcerer could magnify her spell list with useful spells (and use money for being a better caster, for once). The little Sorcerer was finally starting to look like a good, solid class. Sure, she wasn't the Cleric, riding around in his shiny Divine Pimpmobile, but she was a reasonable little girl. All she wanted was some love, to feel a bit special. She didn't have to be the hot supermodel everyone was drooling over. She just wanted to be the reliable girl next door. But...she wasn't there yet. Sure, there was Draconic Feats in Complete Arcane, but, let's face it, not everyone wants to be a dragon. I mean, claws, breath weapon...that's not really "magic", is it? Or there was Arcane Preparation, but that really was whoring herself as a Wizard too much. The little Sorcerer wanted to be loved as a Sorcerer, not a Wizard rip-off. Then came along Races of the Dragon. "Dragons are Sorcerers", the little red-headed Sorcerer thought. "And Dragons are Cool, with a capital C. I mean, it's "Dungeons and Dragons". You don't get much cooler than being in the name of the game. It's not "Dungeons and Wizards". Maybe there's going to be a few crumbs for me in there!" And lo and behold, there were! The first crumb the little sorcerer stumbled on was the Memento Magica. "Why, that's just like a Pearl of Power, but for me!", the little Sorcerer cried happily, hugging her pretty little extra spell slot per day tight to her ragged dress, "Finally, I won't be upstaged by Wizards who somehow manage to cast more spells each day than me anymore!", she said, tears of joy shimmering in her eyes, now that her greatest advantage over Wizards wouldn't be robbed from her anymore (not even noticing in her excitement that Memento Magica were actually cheaper to make than Pearls of Power). So the little sorcerer rooted about some more. She ducked under a pile of dismembered dragon bits, holding her nose at the smell, and stepped clear away from the pile of feats that made her more a dragon and less herself. She stayed well clear of all the Kobold-crafted traps and widgets, because she certainly wasn't going to be just a Kobold. And then, in a corner, she found another treasure! "Why, that Versatile Spellcaster feat is something I've never seen before!", she said, awed that Wizards had actually made a caster Feat that Wizards couldn't get any use from at all. "Trading off my high slots for lower spells was nice, I guess, but trading low slots for high spells is just wonderful!" The little Sorcerer hugged her new feat close, close, so happy she'd found another thing only she could really use. And she skipped around happily in her ragged little dress, hoping against all hope she'd find another such treasure. And on a shiny pedestal, in a beam of light, she saw it. One thing she'd never, ever dreamed she'd get. She tiptoed near it with bated breath, and looked it all over. "My....this....this lets me....ohh...cast quickened spells!", she said, looking at Accelerate Metamagic with the kind of awe normally reserved for gods, tears streaming down her cheeks. She had found the Holy Grail of Sorcerers. Finally, finally, she would be able to cast two spells a round, just like all the other grown ups! No more of the Wizards and the Druids and the Clerics laughing at her spells taking longer to cast, while they could fire off two (at least) for every one of hers. Finally, she though as she reached towards it with trembling hands, finally, she too would be a real primary caster class! And then, just as her fingers touched it, there was a flash of light, and a roar of flames and the poor little Sorcerer felt the skin and muscles of her hand blister away in a fearsome rush of pain! "DRAGONBLOOD ONLY!", roared a mighty voice. "NO ORDINARY SORCERER WILL GET THIS!" And that's why there's a little red-headed girl, sitting on my lap, with one hand a pile of ashes, while I try my best to console her, and tell her that deep, deep down somewhere, her mommy must love her, even a little bit. But it's getting harder to do. Because, once again, Wizards dropped the ball on Sorcerers. They'd finally started to get it right, and they screwed up the best Sorcerer fix they'd put out so far, by giving it a completely moronic prerequisite. And now all the little red-headed Sorcerer and I can do is sit, and wait, and hope someday they'll get their blinders off and remove the stupid restriction off the best Sorcerer feat they've made so far. Get it right, Wizards! Sorcerers shouldn't have to be dragons to be decent!
#2 mtgoracle_dup Apr 09, 2006 16:25:18	"DRAGONBLOOD ONLY!", roared a mighty voice. "NO ORDINARY SORCERER WILL GET THIS!" That's how I feel about a lot of the feats in Races of the Dragon. Very good stuff for sorcerers, but tied directly to the concept of being dragon-blooded. To me, base classes should contain many suggestions for flavor, but having to be bound a singular concept to compete with other classes is lame. And generally that’s where house ruling comes in.
#3 zombiegleemax Apr 23, 2006 0:12:54	The Draconic Heritage feat (from Races of the Dragon) not only gives you the dragonblood subtype and lots of spiffy bonuses, but it also lets you take several other feats that are quite spiffy. That should solve your problem.
#4 wardragon Apr 24, 2006 15:06:37	I do not understand what this fuss over the Dragonblood pre-req is, I really don't. And I shall give you my reasons. First of all; being descended from dragons is the default flavor of the class, just like Clerics default to worshipping gods. Yeah, I know the PHB only hints at it, but the dragon quotient has gradually crept up, so that if you don't specifically say you get your magic from something else, it's because one of your ancestors knocked up (or was knocked up by, more likely) one of the big scalies. Get used to it. My second reason is largely personal bias; I cannot comprehend why anybody wouldn't want to play up the dragon angle. Yeah, I'm a dracophile, I admit it; Races of the Dragon is my holy grail. Third on my list; the restriction really isn't a restriction at all. Like Zemyla said, it only means that, unless you play a dragony race, you have to take Draconic Heritage. Hey, it may not be the greatest feat in the world, but at least it's not Toughness. And nobody says that you have to role-play that particular feat choice; your Sorcerer could just think he's made a breakthrough on metamagic, totally oblivious to the fact that he's tapping into the dragon's blood in his veins. Last but not least, I make mention of that greatest of game-saviors, the almighty HOUSE-RULE. *trumpets* If you feel that strongly about it, either change the feat in your games, or if you're not the DM, whine to him instead of the designers; it's got a better chance of working. Just remove the Dragonblood pre-req, or else change it to "Celestial Heritage," or "Fey Heritage," or "Elemental Heritage," or whatever you want your powers to come from.
#5 kyuketsukiouji Apr 24, 2006 16:13:30	Of course I've houseruled it away, but I shouldn't have to houserule it. Dragonblooded is a miserable prerequisite. Forcing all sorcerers to be descended from dragons is as inane as forcing all rogues to be halflings, or all rangers to be elven. 3rd edition D&D had once and for all done away with race-only class restrictions. Why are we reintroducing this much-hated concept, particularly using an already sub-par class?
#6 danielinthewolvesden Apr 24, 2006 16:58:50	I do not understand what this fuss over the Dragonblood pre-req is, I really don't. And I shall give you my reasons. Third on my list; the restriction really isn't a restriction at all. Like Zemyla said, it only means that, unless you play a dragony race, you have to take Draconic Heritage. Hey, it may not be the greatest feat in the world, but at least it's not Toughness. Last but not least, I make mention of that greatest of game-saviors, the almighty HOUSE-RULE. *trumpets* If you feel that strongly about it, either change the feat in your games, or if you're not the DM, whine to him instead of the designers; it's got a better chance of working. Just remove the Dragonblood pre-req, or else change it to "Celestial Heritage," or "Fey Heritage," or "Elemental Heritage," or whatever you want your powers to come from. Well, I agree and disagree. Yes, taking that feat (and even renaming it to fit your particular Sorc) is just fine. But, it's still a feat, and Sorc don't have all then bonus feats like Wizards do. So, my fix would be: Sorc get one bonus feat at 1st level, from your choice of Eschew materials or Draconic heritage. The Wizard bonus feats can only be used for skill bonus feats or item creations feats, they can not be used for Metamagic. There- a small boost for the Sorc, and a nerf for the 2nd most powerful class- the Wizard. (Druid is #1, Cleric is #3).
#7 Pandaemoni Apr 24, 2006 21:23:20	I do not understand what this fuss over the Dragonblood pre-req is, I really don't. That's great, and it's good for you that you like the flavor of being dragon-blooded. I can see playing a dragon-blooded sorcerer myself, but that is but one concept. I can't see playing and enjoying (say) two, three, five or more dragon-blooded sorcerers. It might be fun once, but it doesn't strike me personally as a sufficiently interesting hook to sustain the class as a whole. Even as a DM, I might roll my eyes at a player who selected something so unoriginal (unless he or she were new to the class). If you love the idea of it, though, and find that it never gets old to you, that is great. Tastes vary. It's true that gamers can just house rule the dragon-blooded nonsense from their games...but they could house rule anything. Who needed a 3.5 edition at all? We could have house ruled the flaws out of 3.0. Does that mean printing the 3.5 edition was a waste of good trees? Though house ruling is always available (many people do in fact give Sorcerers bonus feats or d6 hit dice or any of 1000 other "fixes" by house rule), the unfortunate truth is that it becomes cumbersome to have a vast array of house rules. Once you are at the point of house ruling changes to two or three feats in a newly released book--feats that are only of interest to one particular class, the Sorcerer, no less--I can only imagine the huge number of house rules you'd have to fix perceived balance issues or other silliness in the core rulebooks. As such, people voice their concerns with the RAW, in hopes that things might be altered in the errata or in future supplements. Personally, I hope that WOTC does eventually publish an official feat called "Mage-blooded" that allows for a more interesting array of bloodlines. Such a system could give guidelines for a bloodline without setting the 'permissible' bloodlines in stone (much in the way the Improved Familiar feat lists many possible improved familiars without the list being exhaustive.)
#8 lawrence Apr 24, 2006 23:33:50	Wow...to post on such a thread...this is an honor I may have to signature sometime. For all the Sorcerer doesn't quite get it all, they still got a few things. Never forget that. Power comes in two ways: easy, and hard work. The Sorcerer, while only having a limited glory in being able to quicken if its power is of draconic origins, still has the ability to cast several more 9th level spells a day, those magic disk thingies that are power pearl cousins, and while I have never seen a knowstone, they must be that much better for a sorcerer than wizard, right? I found an interesting trick to giving sorcerers spell variety before, but alas, it used the spell preparation feat, and it resorted to the Mage of the Arcane Order. Sad, because in a way it was stepping into a pair of wizardly shoes, but with all those extra spell uses a day, a single slot or two given up for randomly generated spells was nothing to sniff down at. But this has inspired me to look more closely at some of those feats, for they hold a mighty power - with or without dragon blood!
#9 archangel62 Apr 25, 2006 0:31:37	I can sympathize with you in some respects but I do believe that dragons were made as the main focus for the sorcerer class. I'm a major dragon fan myself so I admit that I'm a tad biased. My own view on the whole thing is this, if you want to make a set of substitution levels for different heritages do it, I'm working on that myself with a few other rules built in and it should work out fairly well. That and I think that you might really want to consider where the problem for the sorcerer comes from, it's more that the class lacks anything that really makes it...unique, it can't specialize in a school and it lacks a certain flair, not sure how to deal with it but I think the problem is also that it's difficult to balance it without making the wizard unplayable.
#10 Gemstone Apr 25, 2006 3:58:36	Actually, I've never really understood the hot debate about which is the better class between sorcerer and wizard. To me, it will always be wizard because I simply see them as a much cooler class both to play and to roleplay. Sorcerer simply isn't my style. In fact, I've only seen two wizards during my 4 years as a D&D player, while I've seen at least triple the amount of sorcerers. Sure, sorcerers lack quicken, but to me, they make up with it BIG TIME by having spontaneous casting. To me, spontaneous casting is so worthwhile that it actually pays off, even if they have a limited sets of spells. Sure, the wizard get's a bit cheese on the cake with their bonus feats, I've never really liked the sorcerer as a class because it's a misconstructed class (NO abilities... gotta hate those), but since sorcerers basically own everything else except bards with meta magic, it's not such a big deal to me. Sure, wizards have specializing but to give up 2 SCHOOLS of magic? Riiiight, something I never did because, to me, it's not worth it.
#11 archangel62 Apr 26, 2006 0:52:26	I suppose I should add that I usually use the specialist mage rules out of Unearthed Arcana, it gives more flavor and it makes more thematic sense in my opinion. As for Sorcerer, I've played wizard and sorcerer, and the wizard usually always does better because of my playstyle. I much prefer doing a battlefield controller summoner/lockdown type of character who has caused several enemies to surrender rather than get mauled by my summoned beasties while they were pinned into rows with wall of force. The sorcerers ability to spontaneously cast is cool, and therein lies the rub. If you make it too good then you have that lovely problem of the wizard really not being worth it. The wizard and sorcerer are similar but their key difference comes out more in the supplements than in the core. The wizard has more skill points than a sorcerer because INT is their prime stat and thus if they had more they could end up with more skill points than the designers intended. The supplements add in a bunch of cool metamagic feats and prestige classes, but almost all of them depend VERY heavily on a wizard who can prep and tactically work out their spells. This might actually be the key, the wizard is easier to use tactically than the sorcerer. The wizard doesn't get to cast on the fly, but they can sit down and work out a plan, if they know that they're fighting a Dragon then they could search out spells specifically for fighting Dragons and prepare them, the same sort of thing for any kind of major enemy. The wizard can have a set list of spells but if they want to start working out tactics they can pretty much bring whatever the party needs. The wizard can learn every spell in existence, this might not look that unbalancing or powerful except when you consider the fact of utility. Some spells I take can be used in the place of a few smaller spells, or a combination of certain spells with the party abilities can work out well. Also the wizard can trade with friendlies or work with a guild to pick up some new scrolls. A wizard who can sit down with the spell compendium and say "This is my spellbook with the PHB" is incredibly powerful, if for no other reason than the fact that they can tailor themselves to any situation. The sorcerer can cast a lot more, but that also neglects to factor in things like misfires, the wrong spell for the situation, or having to burn though 5 or six slots (or however many spellpoints if you use those rules instead) because the spell that they have isn't the right tool but it's the best that they have available. Tactical feats that deal with spellcasting, like what was found in Races of the Dragon, seem to mirror my own thoughts on this. The idea seems to be that the sorcerer has an almost unlimited number of spell slots, not the case, and wasted slots can hurt a lot more when you get near the end and are totally burned out while the Wizard plays battlefield pinball.
#12 kyuketsukiouji Apr 26, 2006 12:16:52	I'm not going to disagree that spontaneous spellcasting is a powerful advantage. However, it's not so powerful as to properly balance all the advantages the Wizard gets over the sorcerer. In particular, the ability to use Quicken normally, 5 bonus feats, and faster spell gain rate all add up to a pretty large advantage, that we're supposed to think balances spontaneous casting? That's far too much to be balanced, no? Not only that, but now, if you want to undo another advantage, you need to spend two feats (to use quicken). So, basically, WotC is saying that spontaneous spellcasting is worth 7 feats and 1 spell level progression. Given that fact, how does anyone explain the Favoured Soul, who gets spontaneous casting and special abilities? How does that match the Sorcerer's 7 feat deficit? Mechanical concerns aside, forcing people to be dragonblooded to take Accelerate Metamagic is just plain poor flavor. There are no Base classes in the Core rules that have any racial connection. Not only that, but dragons, by default, still have to take more time casting spells with metamagic feats, so there's no connection there either. I find it hideously poor form to force all sorcerers into the "blood of whatever" mold, in any case. Every other Base class out there is open to absolutely anyone, and that's good, since you can make any kind of campaign world without having to worry about racial considerations....except for the sorcerer? What if there are no dragons in your campaign? Or outsiders? You've just added yet another houserule to the list, and completely unnecessarily. Core rules Base Classes should not be dependant on farfetched explanations for their abilities, and Accelerate Metamagic is sufficiently critical to spontaneous spellcasters that the feat should be available to any of them (and I'm not just talking about the sorcerers, here. There are other spontaneous caster classes that benefit immensely from the feat.) Accelerate Metamagic is one of the core tools a discriminating Sorcerer would want, and should be open to anyone, irrespective of origin. Saying "you can get it by taking dragonblooded" is both poor favor (2 feats just to do something Wizards do by default, and better), and poor flavor (normal people should be able to be Sorcerers too).
#13 zombiegleemax May 01, 2006 0:30:41	I'm also quite annoyed by that dragonblood subtype requirement. Feats are precious enough for a sorcerer without having to use TWO of them just so you can spontaneously quicken (and that doesn't include the feat spent on getting quicken itself). Or, I could be a Kobold sorcerer and not burn up the feat slot. Except I'd be a kobold--and still have that whole tied to dragons thing, which I wasn't really looking for. However, I think the major fix that sorcerers need won't happen without a revision--they need some reason (ANY reason) to not go into a PrC as soon as possible. 3.5 changed many classes so they wouldn't be so frontloaded (Ranger especially, but also the Paladin as well as others) but did nothing to fix the Sorcerer. If you're a sorcerer, you should try to get into a full casting PrC as quickly as possible, because you'll get SOMETHING out of it, as compared to the nothing you'll get from Sorcerer. (So your familiar gets slightly better. Whoopty-doo.)
#14 neopopulas May 01, 2006 20:14:10	All excellent points, and I too am one that does not always enjoy the dragon-blooded side. I have played a sorcerer with the 'dragon feel' to it, I went all the way, energy subbed everything to fire and took just about all the draconic heritage feats, it was cool, but it was addition flavor\ and should never be core to the class. It would be like saying all Fighters were soldiers, or brawlers, or swordsmen, as opposed to a class that can take any feel, of any culture, of any race. Elven fencers, dwarven axemen, half-orc hammer fighters, they have a huge range of options, and that’s what you need in a core class. A core class - unlike a PrC - is supposed to be a template, and skeleton of mechanics and rules for you to build a character around. For one of the base classes to have 'dragon' hovering over their heads is, well, its annoying, and a little aggravating, what if I don't want to be a dragon? what if I want my magic to be celestial (also, if you remember, hinted at in the PHB) what if I want it to be simply drawn from the ether by the force of my will (which is, I believe, how it's stated, more or less - which of course brings up the question of, if the sorcerer 'manipulated the raw stuff of magic by force of will' why his main spellcasting stat is Charisma instead of Wisdom, though we all know its because there weren’t enough classes using charisma and already enough using wisdom, ugh). As I said, i've played the dragon angle, and its fun, but i'd also like to play the 'raw force of nature, molding magic to my will' sorcerer too, can't I do that? No, because unless I take draconic feats, I can't get the cool sorcerer-y feats and abilities. And sure, I could say 'well, its not draconic, its something else, its X' but then, I still have to spend a feat to buy it, right? Or more than two, it wouldn’t be so bad, right? Oh, wait, no, I forgot that I don't get any more feats. As has been said, the sorcerer isn’t going to be 'fixed' without a complete overhaul, and they won't do that on the fly, so it’s unlikely to happen in the near future. Though, my one main concern with the sorcerer is not its hitpoints (even if they are suppose to be 'more rugged and worldly) its not the poor skills or points (see above) its not the fewer spells known (i can handle that) its the feat, and the spell progression. I've mentioned it to people before, some agree, and some just say 'but then, its just a spontaneous wizard!'. Which is would be, it would have the same power as a wizard, to an extend, it would have fewer spells, but it would get the same levels, and not be gimped back for no apparent reason. It would be able to take PrCs in a timely fashion, same as the wizard. But it wouldn’t be 'just the same' because fewer spells know demand that you focus, it depends specialization, and it demands flavor. And this, is there two (maybe three) new supplements come into play. Frostburn, Sandstorm and maybe Lords of Madness. As I said, I've played a draconic sorcerer, and its fun, but I've also played an Ice sorcerer, several feats, and a ton of spells from Frostburn can make a very flavorful character, the fewer spells known force you to specialize, and this makes you unique. The same is true for Sandstorm - the only problem is that to do so, you must burn many feats for it, more feats would allow the sorcerer to specialize to a greater degree, and become even more unique. The amount of spell and feat combinations, to create a 'sorcerer template' is almost endless, travel, ice, fire, lightning, summoning, everything is open to them then, and they may not even want to jump a PrC as soon as they can - though probably a level behind the wizard who does it anyway - because they are getting feats, feats that they want so they can customize even more. As an aside, for the familiar, like material components (beside foci and the like) should not be an issue for Sorcerers, sorcerers, logically, should never, ever have material components - or somatic, or any, for that matter - Can you picture the chance that a sorcerer would just happen upon the ability to cast Fireball, just happen to have the right bits of trash in his hands, waving in just the right way? No, its ludicrous, but its mechanically needed for balance, I suppose. Familiars, are the same, I would leave it open that they CAN get them - there is a feat in one of the Complete series, Adventure or Arcane - that allows you to obtain a familiar 'as per a caster' which is fine for them to take, if they want it. But a sorcerer doesn’t need one, nor does it usually fit the 'self made, raw magic, force of will' caster type, but if they want it, they can get it.
#15 NineInchNall May 03, 2006 18:46:01	For one of the base classes to have 'dragon' hovering over their heads is, well, its annoying, and a little aggravating, what if I don't want to be a dragon? what if I want my magic to be celestial (also, if you remember, hinted at in the PHB) what if I want it to be simply drawn from the ether by the force of my will (which is, I believe, how it's stated, more or less - which of course brings up the question of, if the sorcerer 'manipulated the raw stuff of magic by force of will' why his main spellcasting stat is Charisma instead of Wisdom, though we all know its because there weren’t enough classes using charisma and already enough using wisdom, ugh). What if you don't want to be a dragon descended Sorcerer? What if you want to play a celestial or fiend descended Sorcerer? Well, has Cleric-- I mean Wizards of the Coast got the answer for you: Fiendish Codex 1-4, due out in hardcover in June, August, October, and December! We all know this is why they write such prereqs into things. This is why we get psionic versions of existing classes, feats, and spells. *shrug* House rule the dragonblood requirement away. It's a poor requirement that shouldn't be there in the first place, but WotC has to make its money somehow.
#16 zombiegleemax May 28, 2006 6:38:33	I am a little confused on how the quicken metamagic feat seems to often be the deciding factor for the wizard. The spell takes up a slot 4 levels higher, in the wizards already poorer selection of daily spells. In a campaign where the DM has only one encounter a day, then sure, the wizard is better, but the Sorcerer holds up in the long run. Still, I do think the Sorcerer needs some flavor beyond spell selection. Eschew materials is good, and maybe some kind of spell trick or spell secret. Maybe at a certain level, he gets the ability to apply a certain metamagic feat to his spells without increasing the casting time X amount of times per day (though still not quicken). Or he gets a spell flair, to indicate the wildness with which a sorcerer makes his spells that gives him a bonus when someone is trying to discern his spell to dispel it. If a sorcerer is truly hankering for a regularly timed metamagic feat, then take the prepare spells feat. I think that's really the best solution.
#17 bowensilverclaw1986 Jun 17, 2006 6:23:19	If you don't mind not having fluffy the familiar at your side, how about looking at PH2? The Metamagic Specialist alternative sorcerer class feature lets you cast metamagic spells without increasing their casting time. This feature replaces the familiar class feature, so you don't get a fuzzball. But you won't have to burn any feats or go with the "my great-grandmother got knocked up by a dragon" theme (although I personally don't mind playing a dragonblooded sorcerer ;) ). Maybe this can be seen as a slight fix to your problem? Greetings, Bowen Silverclaw
#18 aelryinth Jun 19, 2006 19:44:05	I am a little confused on how the quicken metamagic feat seems to often be the deciding factor for the wizard. The spell takes up a slot 4 levels higher, in the wizards already poorer selection of daily spells. In a campaign where the DM has only one encounter a day, then sure, the wizard is better, but the Sorcerer holds up in the long run. Still, I do think the Sorcerer needs some flavor beyond spell selection. Eschew materials is good, and maybe some kind of spell trick or spell secret. Maybe at a certain level, he gets the ability to apply a certain metamagic feat to his spells without increasing the casting time X amount of times per day (though still not quicken). Or he gets a spell flair, to indicate the wildness with which a sorcerer makes his spells that gives him a bonus when someone is trying to discern his spell to dispel it. If a sorcerer is truly hankering for a regularly timed metamagic feat, then take the prepare spells feat. I think that's really the best solution. A quickened spell is the wizardly equivalent of a 'full attack'. In short, you are bringing the power RIGHT NOW, trying to deal as big a hit as soon as you can to cut down on the enemy or eliminate him entirely. This can mean the difference of a spell duel dragging on or being over with in one round. For sorcerers, it has the above meaning, PLUS it allows the sorcerer to do something they might not often get to do...use all their spell slots. Sorcerers typically have spell slots to burn...metamagicked spells, esp Quicken, that allow them to burn more then one slot a round, make use of this power and bring more of their strength, their spell slots, into play. ==Aelryinth