In contrast, poisons seem to be very inconsistent in their effects, in their pricing, in their acquisition. They are relegated to an obscure corner of the DMG, and only cursorily discussed. In order to cover up these issues, the rules strongly discourage their use by non-evil PCs, declaring their general illegality, and expressly banning paladins from using such items.
I think that poisons have a place in the game, and I don't think it is a place limited to assassins. Poisons in real-life are devastating substances that, if they don't kill you, often debilitate you for the rest of your days. In D&D, such substances would be game-breaking and should be handled as an inflicted disease rather than an alchemical effect.
But D&D poisons are not toxic in the same way as real-life arsenic and cyanide. D&D poisons work like spell-like effects, and thus should be scaled and priced accordingly. With this in mind, I present my variant rules on poisons, which have been play-tested in my campaign and appear to be quite balanced, even in campaign worlds where poisons are considered legal and are widely used. A version of this was previously presented on the What's a DM to Do Board [post=10745044]here[/post].
CONDITIONS
Poisons impose Conditions on the victim who fails a Fortitude save. The Conditions that can be imposed upon a victim include Ability damaged, Ability drained, Blinded, Confused, Cowering, Dazed, Dazzled, Dead, Deafened, Energy drained, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Frightened, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralyzed, Shaken, Sickened, Stunned or Unconscious. A poison may also impose a new Condition on a victim: Asleep and Distracted, detailed below. These Conditions are prioritized into eleven separate condition levels. The higher the condition level, the more the poison will cost.
- Ability damage (non-Constitution), each point of mean damage
- Dazzled, Distracted
- Ability damage (Constitution), each point of mean damage
- Dazed, Fatigued or Shaken
- Ability drain (non-Constitution), each point of maximum damage
- Blinded, Cowering, Deafened, Fascinated or Sickened
- Ability drain (Constitution), each point of maximum damage
- Confused, Exhausted, Frightened, Nauseated or Stunned
- Energy drain, each negative level inflicted at maximum
- Asleep, Panicked, Paralyzed or Unconscious
- Dead (is only ever a secondary effect)
I really like these variant rules though. Gives me some good ideas for my campaign. Very well made wrecan.
I always found poisons to be strange in D&D. What's the DC for drinking bleach? Whatever it is, I'm sure a high level fighter could chug a gallon of it and have a good chance of not even getting sick. Seems highly unrealistic, as in our world, it seems like nobody hardly ever makes their DCs against poisonous substances (Rasputin comes to mind as an exception). Just my thought.
In the real world you can't take two arrows to the chest, fall in a 20 foot pit of spikes, receive a 5,000 volt electric shock, and still be healthy enough to kill a wolf with your bare hands, but it happens all the time in D&D. Compared to that, chugging bleach doesn't sound all that lethal.
I always found poisons to be strange in D&D. What's the DC for drinking bleach?
Since the only way someone could drink bleach is if it were forced upon them (which would require them to be helpless), or if they were committing suicide, I'd rule that to be a coup de grace.
Poison Domain
Granted Power
Poison use: The cleric never risks accidentally poisoning himself when applying poison to a blade.
1-Preserve Poison (see below)
2-Ghoul Touch
3-Stinking Cloud
4-Poison
5-Cloudkill
6-Eyebite (not considered evil-descriptored as a Poison Domain spell)
7-Poison, Mass (see below)
8-Creeping Doom
9-Poison Storm (see below)
Detoxify Area
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 7, Drd 6
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: 15 ft. radius.
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)
This spells renders inert all poisons in an area, whether in a person, creature or object. Poisoned creatures are affected as if by a neutralize poison spell. Upon termination of the spell, or upon leaving the area, poisonous creatures are returned to the potency they possessed before entering the area. A poisoned creature suffers no additional effects from the poison, and any temporary effects are ended, but the spell does not reverse instantaneous effects, such as temporary ability damage, or effects that don’t go away on their own.
Poison, Mass
Necromancy
Level: Clr 7, Drd 6, Poison 7
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You poison targets as if by a poison spell. The poison deals 1d10 points of temporary Constitution damage immediately and another 1d10 points of temporary Constitution damage 1 minute later. Each instance of damage can be negated by a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ your caster level + your Wis modifier).
Poison Storm
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Drd 9, Clr 9, Poison 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: 360-ft.-radius storm cloud
Duration: Concentration (maximum 10 rounds) (D)
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell creates an enormous purple storm cloud. If you do not maintain concentration on the spell after casting it, the spell ends. If you continue to concentrate, the spell generates additional effects in each following round, as noted below. Each effect occurs during your turn.
2nd Round
Fixative poison rains down in the area, dealing 2d6 points of Strength damage (no save). Creatures may attempt a Fortitude save to resist the poison.
3rd Round
In addition to another round of Strength poison, the rain now includes fixative poison that inflicts 2d6 Constitution damage. Separate Fortitude saves must be made for the Strength and Constitution poisons.
4th Round
In addition to another round of Strength and Constitution poison, the cloud itself descends on the area, filling it with an inhalant poison that inflicts 1d4 levels of Energy Drain.
5th through 10th Rounds
The Strength, Constitution and Energy Drain poisons continue unabated. In addition, any creature that breathes will take drowning damage (unless they can breathe poison – water-breathing creatures are affected by drowning).
The poison rain obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target). Speed is reduced by three-quarters.
Ranged attacks within the area of the storm are impossible. Spells cast within the area are disrupted unless the caster succeeds on a Concentration check against a DC equal to the poison storm’s DC + the level of the spell the caster is trying to cast.
Preserve Poison
Level: Adp 1, Asn 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1, Poison 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target or Area: One dose of poison/level
Duration: One week
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
When cast on a dose of poison, this spell prevents the potency of poison from degrading for one week. It also prevents poison that is rendered in inert in sunlight or similar conditions from degrading for the duration of the spell. This spell has no effect on other alchemical materials.
Since the only way someone could drink bleach is if it were forced upon them (which would require them to be helpless), or if they were committing suicide, I'd rule that to be a coup de grace.
Why? The forced drinking of cyanide allows a save DC, so why wouldn't bleach?
Poisons impose Conditions on the victim who fails a Fortitude save.
Sorry, I'm just not quite seeing how the listed conditions are supposed to be applied to the victim who fails a Fortitude save.
Do you just pick one or is there some method?Once per day per cleric level, the character may choose to negate the effects of a poison he has been afflicted with.
Or if that seems a bit much: Instead of negating the poison, you could let the cleric reduce the DC by his cleric level.
Or for something more offensive, you could allow the cleric to increase the DC of any poison he touches to 10 + 1/2 his cleric level + his wisdom modifier 1 per day per cleric level. The character may also expend 1 use of this ability to negate a creature's immunity to a particular poison for 1 round.
Let me start by saying that this is awesome!
Thanks!!
a question about your poison domain. If a character automatically gets the effect of poison use for having 5 ranks in craft(poison), what’s the point in giving the ability Poison Use to a cleric who is likely to put ranks in such a skill anyway?
That's a great point. I agree the domain power needs to be fixed. I don't think it should be defensive. The neutralize poison spell is purposely not in the domain.
Perhaps allow the cleric to will a balanced Dex poison (DC = 10 + cleric level) to coat a melee weapon once per day/level. The poison causes Dex damage equal to the largest die-size (d1, d2, d3, d4, d6, d8, d12, d20) that is not greater than the cleric's level. (Ie, a 9th level cleric could coat a melee weapon with a DC19 d8/d8 Dex poison). This poison dissipates one hour after generation if not used.
That's a great point. I agree the domain power needs to be fixed. I don't think it should be defensive. The neutralize poison spell is purposely not in the domain.
Perhaps allow the cleric to will a balanced Dex poison (DC = 10 + cleric level) to coat a melee weapon once per day/level. The poison causes Dex damage equal to the largest die-size (d1, d2, d3, d4, d6, d8, d12, d20) that is not greater than the cleric's level. (Ie, a 9th level cleric could coat a melee weapon with a DC19 d8/d8 Dex poison). This poison dissipates one hour after generation if not used.
I really like your variant rules, Wrecan. I've always thought that poison is a bit lame in the new edition. What's the point of the evil chancellor poisoning the king if the king only needs to make a DC 13 Fort save? DC 13 is ridiculous for arsenic, the old "heart attack standby". I had an idea or two for your Poison Domain's granted ability.
Skill Focus: Craft Poison. Quick and easy ;) But lacking in flavor.
Master Poisoncrafter (Ex)
This ability grants a(n) (divine/holy/unholy/unnamed) bonus to Craft: Poison equal to class level (or if too much for ya, class level/2, minimum +1) Makes for effective poisoners, but still a little generic.
Or,
Produce Poison (Su)
Once per day per class level, the cleric can create 1 dose of any fixative, toxin or venom with a save DC equal to 10+class level. This poison persists for a number of hours equal to the class level of the cleric.
To create a fixative or venom, the cleric must have a weapon in hand or a container at hand. Ammunition requires one dose per unit.
Toxins require a container (vial, bottle, etc...) or food or drink at hand. To create poison within food or drink, the cleric must pass her hand over the consumables to be effected (thus possibly drawing a Sense Motive or Spellcraft check(with a +2 synergy bonus from Bluff or Perform perhaps?), DC=DC of the poison).
This ability is a standard action that requires a DC 10 concentration check. If the cleric fails the check, that usage of the ability is wasted. This ability is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
Flavorful, but mayhap a bit too complex?
Superior Potence (Ex)
The Save DC of any poison the cleric creates with spell or skill is increased by class level/2. (Minimum +1) Another fairly generic
Poison Immunity (Ex)
This ability grants the cleric immunity to one natural or manufactured poison but not magical poison per class level with a DC of 10+class level.
Martyr's Benevolence (Su)
The cleric can remove others' poison with a touch and transfer it to herself as a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. The cleric must immediately make an initial save against the poison's DC or suffer the effect of the poison.
Baneful Touch (Su)
Baleful Touch
Pestilent Touch
Lethal Touch
Poison Touch (Pick one :D )
The cleric has the option of once (3x, 1+Wis, 3+Wis, or maybe use Con instead of Wis) per day using a poison touch. This poison touch creates a balanced poison as per your example, however the cleric can choose the ability to be effected at the time of creation. This poison touch requires a touch attack or a willing/helpless subject. ;) This ability is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
That turned out to be more than my initial ideas :D Wow.
Preserve Poison
Level: Adp 1, Asn 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1, Poison 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target or Area: One dose of poison/level
Duration: One week
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
When cast on a dose of poison, this spell prevents the potency of poison from degrading for one week. It also prevents poison that is rendered in inert in sunlight or similar conditions from degrading for the duration of the spell. This spell has no effect on other alchemical materials.
Do you think there might be a more mundane way of emulating this? You insinuate that air spoils poison, so perhaps a simple airless bottle could do the trick. Being a vacuum, I'm sure it would be costly to make, but I can just see my PCs trying something like that, seeing how they don't have access to this spell.
Why? The forced drinking of cyanide allows a save DC, so why wouldn't bleach?
Cyanide prevents the body from processing oxygen and giving it to the cells. In other words it impairs the body's natural ability to sustain itself.
Bleach is caustic and causes burns. You don't get a save for total immersion in acid. You don't get a save for ingesting it either.
NEW CONDITIONS
...
Distracted: A distracted character must make an appropriate Concentration check of the higher of DC 15 or DC 10+spell level (if trying to cast a spell), whenever she attempts to take an action that would provoke an Attack of Opportunity if such action were taken while standing in another character's threatened area. This check occurs even if the character is not in someone's threatened area. If the check fails, the action fails. One may never take 10 on any skill check while distracted.
There's already a precedent for your Distracted condition, described in Dragonlance Campaign Setting as an effect of a kender's taunt ability. If you play a kender, the victim of your taunts "is nettled by your taunts and suffers a -1 penalty on his attack rolls and AC until your next action" (DLCS p29). The text uses the word "distracted" in the same context as "nettled" also.
Kender themselves are easily distracted and suffer from lack of focus as a racial feature. This imposes a -4 penalty to Concentration checks.
I think either of these distraction effects (-1 penalty to attack and AC, and/or -4 penalty to Concentration) better represent of a "Distracted" condition than imposing yet another special DC for a concentration check. The advantage of introducing a penalty to attack, AC, and Concentration is that almost any character class would be affected by distraction, not just spellcasters as you propose.
-A
I think either of these distraction effects (-1 penalty to attack and AC, and/or -4 penalty to Concentration) better represent of a "Distracted" condition than imposing yet another special DC for a concentration check. The advantage of introducing a penalty to attack, AC, and Concentration is that almost any character class would be affected by distraction, not just spellcasters as you propose.
My proposal doesn't merely affect spellcasters. Use of a ranged weapon would require Concentration. Heck, moving more than a 5-foot step (without using the withdraw option) would require a Concentration check.
I wanted to impose a Concentration check because I wanted it to specifically affect spellcasting without ultimately crippling it. Your proposal wouldn't affect spellcasters at all, unless they were already making a Concentration check.
I wanted to impose a Concentration check because I wanted it to specifically affect spellcasting without ultimately crippling it. Your proposal wouldn't affect spellcasters at all, unless they were already making a Concentration check.
Prior to ToB, wasn't spellcasting the *only* time Concentration was useful? The problem with this "distracted" state is that it's *very* crippling, to everyone.
I will also increase the Condition Level from 2nd to 4th.
I wanted to impose a Concentration check because I wanted it to specifically affect spellcasting without ultimately crippling it. Your proposal wouldn't affect spellcasters at all, unless they were already making a Concentration check.
Wrong, my proposal assumes that a spellcaster in the "distracted" state is required to make Concentration checks for every spell cast, according to RAW: "You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted ... while engaged in some action [such as] casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell."
I like your idea of the Concentration check DC to be 10+spell level, but I suggested penalizing the check by -4 for consistency with existing precedent for doing so, per the Kender race description. Include a -1 penalty to attack and AC, and you have a "distracted" state consistent with other D&D publications, which affects all classes, not just spellcasters and ranged attackers. -A
A distracted character suffers a -1 on all attack rolls, ability checks, and skill checks. This penalty for concentration is increased to a -5/10, while flatfooted characters suffer a -5/10 penalty on spot and listen checks. (Alternatively any skill used for more than 5 consecutive rounds.)
You make a good point about Concentration checks being harder on barbarians than casters, because barbarians probably didn't take ranks in Concentration. On the other hand, melee fighters probably already have decent Con bonuses. Moreover, melee fighters have decent Fortitude saves, meaning they are less likely to be affected by Distracting Poisons in the first place (and the Con bonus helps on the untrained Concentrate check). In the end, I think it balances out.
The folks who do get most hurt by Distracting Poisons would be rogues. They would not spend many ranks in Concentration and wouldn't have very high Con bonuses. And rogues are often doing many things that might trigger a Concentration check. But rogues often find themselves on the losing end on a poison attack. It's just not something the class is well-equipped to handle.
I guess the DMG also tried to minimize the importance of poisons to avoid a mechanical nightmare: What's toxic to one species is harmless to another. Toxicity is also an issue of dosage. A clear-cut example of both is theobromine. It's a nasty poison that's so toxic it can easily cause cardiac arrhythmias, epileptic seizures, internal bleeding, heart attacks, and even death. . . in dogs. To humans, it's just another ingredient in chocolate.
. . . Now permutate that complexity among the millions of substances, meta-substances, species and meta-species in a D&D world. Who knows if displacer beasts react to mithral? Better yet, let's just not open that can of worms.
All that said, if I introduce poisons to my game, I'll consider using these rules as a base.
I like the rules, and the pricing definitely favors game balance, but I see a gap here. As others here have mentioned bleach, let me just say poison can also not be very expensive.
Except in every other area, that's not how D&D pricing works. For example, magic item components do not vary in price based on their exoticness. A magic item's cost (and thus the cost of its components) is entirely dependent on the power of the magic item.
My proposal is to apply this uniformity to poisons. Why? To prevent just the sort of arbitrage that is discussed. When something is less expensive than it is potent, every player should be using it. It should be everywhere.
Also, I think it bears repeating that D&D poisons work nothing like real world poisons. Take the the obromine you cited. Application of this poison cases nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, increased urination, cardiac arrhythmias, epileptic seizures, internal bleeding, heart attacks, and eventually death.
D&D poisons have no symptoms. They cause ability damage or a single Condition. If anything, real-world poisons operate more like a variation of D&D Disease.
For this reason, I don't think we should use real-world poisons as an analogy to D&D poisons, just as real-world chemistry is an inappropriate analogy to D&D alchemy.
What's toxic to one species is harmless to another.
That's easy. Just as magic items are cheaper when they are limited ot a class, poisons can get a reduction (or possibly a price increase) if they are specific to a race. But for simplicity sake, I would state that all poisons are applicable to all creatures vulnerable to poison unless otherwise stated.
Toxicity is also an issue of dosage.
I acommodate that in my rules:
[INDENT]Creatures also apply their Size modifiers to grappling to any saving throws, as the dosages listed are made for Medium-sized creatures.[/INDENT]
Who knows if displacer beasts react to mithral?
My rules of thumb for making house rules:
Does it increase the fun or just the complexity?
Adding rules for "realism" is, in my opinion, the worst possible reason to add house rules. D&D is, first and foremost, a game. Rules that sacrifice enjoyability or fairness in the name of realism are, imo, poorly designed house rules.
1) Fixatives. Touch attacks are designed to make armor irrelevant. Touching armor is as good as touching a person. However, with fixatives, you need to bypass armor. So a good proposal would be that the attack with a fixative ignores natural armor bonuses, but not armor or shield bonuses.
2) If we're making poisons like spell like effects, adding one more would contribute to realism, and not be out of line with other spell like effects... The cost prohibitive Death effect.
3) 5 ranks of craft poison is well and good for knowing how to apply it, however, that wouldn't necessarily make someone immune to tripping and poisoning themselves in attack... Perhaps make that protection either factor off of the Poison Use class ability, a feat, or base attack?
Except in every other area, that's not how D&D pricing works. For example, magic item components do not vary in price based on their exoticness. A magic item's cost (and thus the cost of its components) is entirely dependent on the power of the magic item.
No, that only applies to magic items, which represent the high end of D&D. Poisons are largely mundane, and if you look at mundane items in the PHB, they're not always consistent. For example, a club (free) and a dagger (2gp) are almost equivalent (simple melee/thrown weapons, one does more damage while the other is keen). A royal outfit costs 200gp when its only advantage is in a narrow range of social situations. Its price, especially compared to other outfits (or armor), is purely due to availability. The PHB generally prices for game balance, but can't always do so for common items.
Similarly, with poisons, basing price on potency makes sense if all else was equal, i.e., all poisons were exotic. Unfortunately, that's often not the case. As mentioned before, wood alcohol is ridiculously easy to make (it's just a distillate, technology available since 1st century AD) and it's one of the nastier poisons out there, since it causes blindness or death and is hard to detect if mixed with any alcoholic beverage. But if you listed wood alcohol in the PHB as prohibitively expensive due to its potency, you'd get a well-deserved brouhaha of objections from the players. It's not the uber-powerful exotic poisons that throw off pricing, but the mundane ones that are as common as lead.
Creatures also apply their Size modifiers to grappling to any saving throws, as the dosages listed are made for Medium-sized creatures.
That's not what I meant when I said, "Toxicity is also an issue of dosage." I mean it's possible to add more or less of a poison to alter its potency. For example, 125ml of methanol is fatal to a human, but the PCs wouldn't give a giant such a properly measured dose. The PCs are more likely to pour a bottle of the stuff into a wine barrel, which throws off any save based on "one dose per victim". Similarly, any target suspected of having a high Fort save (plausible without metagaming since high Fort saves are observable) would be subjected to wild overdoses. Also, certain substances are only toxic at certain dosages. Grain alcohol (ethanol) is the most common example: It's one of the most regularly consumed substances that routinely poisons people to death. If you inject a lethal dose of brandy into a human, a careless investigation would conclude the person drank him/herself to death. Yet you can't inject said lethal dose by just pouring brandy on a weapon. Is it a poison or not? Depends on dosage.
A lethal poison imposes a condition on a failed Fortitude save, and ability damage on a succesful one. This represents that even if you fend off the sleep poison, you still feel sleepy. Nonlethal poisons represent poisoned weapons and animal bites, where it impares your abilities instead of immediately imposing a condition.
3. Dazzled (1d3-1 Dex), Distracted (1d3-1 Wis)
6. Dazed (1d3 Dex), Fatigued (1d3 Str), or Shaken (1d3 Int)
9. Blinded (2d2 Wis), Cowering (2d2 Int), Deafened (2d2 Wis), Fascinated (2d2 Wis), or Sickened (1d3 Con)
12. Confused (1d6+1d8 Int), Exhausted (1d6+1d8 Str), Frightened (1d6+1d8 Int), Nauseated (1d4 Con), or Stunned (1d8+1d8 Dex)
13.5 Energy drain (1d2 Con damage per level drained)
15. Asleep (4d4 Wis), Panicked (4d4 Int), Paralyzed (4d4 Dex) or Unconscious (4d4 Cha)
16.5 Dead (2d4 Con)
1) Size modifiers for various poisons. Whilst certainly realistic, this does unbalance the current way that size is set up. Now we have usually hardy races that happen to be small (such as gnomes) receiving a severe negative for poisons, whilst rendering many of the larger creatures practically immune, due to larger sizes and generally high Fort saves. What this, in essence does, is restrict the use of poisons to largely against PC's. It's likely easier and simpler to state that it just works, and trust in the size bonuses to con to give large creatures all the advantage they should have.
2) Fixatives need a touch attack to hit? Touch attacks were designed for situations where touching someone's armor will hurt just as bad as landing a hit on their bare skin. With Fixatives, this is not the case. Smearing that poison on the armor won't effectively deliver the poison. Likely a more accurate way to do it is to simply reverse brilliant energy. Disregard all bonuses to armor provided by Natural armor, and leave armor and shield bonuses in there. Again, this seems like it's targeted a bit much against the party.
3) All Death poisons are unbalanced, and thus have a double cost? Seems a bit off to me. Perhaps if a short list of balanced effects as a precursor to that secondary death was made that was considered balanced... Examples might include Stunned, Staggered (not necessarily at 0 hp - some spells/psi powers do this), or asleep might be logical precursors to a smooth single effect. Or better yet, leave status effects off of the unbalanced list, and let Caster Level/Effective spell level of the item handle the cost.
4) Further, keep in mind, adding too much power to this idea greatly weakens the concept of casters. If anyone with a few ranks of craft poison and profession (herbalist) can duplicate many spell like effects, you're taking a card away from casters and giving it to many classes.
1) Fixatives. Touch attacks are designed to make armor irrelevant. Touching armor is as good as touching a person. However, with fixatives, you need to bypass armor. So a good proposal would be that the attack with a fixative ignores natural armor bonuses, but not armor or shield bonuses.
That's an good idea. My only issue with that is that sometimes natural armor may represent a hard carapace or shell, which should also repel attacks repelled by armor or shields.
Perhaps fixative attacks do not represent a touch attack at all. Perhaps they should be simple melee attacks that do not need to inflict damage (i.e., bypass DR) in order to cause the Condition.
3) 5 ranks of craft poison is well and good for knowing how to apply it, however, that wouldn't necessarily make someone immune to tripping and poisoning themselves in attack... Perhaps make that protection either factor off of the Poison Use class ability, a feat, or base attack?
I think it makes sense that Craft (poisonmaker) also trains you to use poison safely. After all, we don't ask people wielding weapons in which they are not proficient to roll a d10, with a natural 1 representing they stab themselves.
No, that only applies to magic items, which represent the high end of D&D. Poisons are largely mundane, and if you look at mundane items in the PHB, they're not always consistent.
I think they should be consistent. I am striving for consistency in rules. However, this is not a thread to discuss the inconsistency of mundane item prices.
At any rate, the consistency of magic item components only highlights the irrationality of justifying inconsistent poison prices based on exoticness. What is more exotic than a magic item? If potions are uniformly priced based on potency rather than the exoticness of their ingredients, shouldn't poisons work similarly?
As mentioned before, wood alcohol is ridiculously easy to make
Please stop using real-world poisons as an analogy. This thread is predicated on the observation that real-world poisons work nothing like D&D poisons.
And again, the rules are not based on exoticness. They are based on utility. Even the differences in prices in the mundane items you identify cannot be explained on the basis of exoticness of the materials. Neither clubs nor daggers are made of exotic materials, for example.
I mean it's possible to add more or less of a poison to alter its potency. The PCs are more likely to pour a bottle of the stuff into a wine barrel, which throws off any save based on "one dose per victim".
Which can be represented by multiple doses. A halfling is likely to drink a small dose of poisoned wine. He could ignore his usual size modifier. An ogre is likely to drink a large dose of wine. He may have to make several saves in order to represent the multiple doses consumed.
1) Size modifiers for various poisons. Whilst certainly realistic, this does unbalance the current way that size is set up. Now we have usually hardy races that happen to be small (such as gnomes) receiving a severe negative for poisons, whilst rendering many of the larger creatures practically immune, due to larger sizes and generally high Fort saves.
A gnome has a Con bonus, which offsets the size penalty. The problem is that ignoring size renders poisons absurd. A 4,500 pound (Large) mimic can be brought down by the same poison as a 150 lb. (Medium) doppleganger.
trust in the size bonuses to con to give large creatures all the advantage they should have.
I'll consider that. You do make good points. Maybe I had not properly considered the Con adjustments with Size Categories as a sufficient standin for dosages.
All Death poisons are unbalanced, and thus have a double cost? Seems a bit off to me.
It's the only thing that makes sense with the poisoning rules as listed in the DMG. I tried to keep the pricing here as consistent with a majority of listed poisons in the DMG. Personally, I think Con poisons are plenty lethal. We don't need to make save-or-die poisons more accessible.
4) Further, keep in mind, adding too much power to this idea greatly weakens the concept of casters.
I think that bag is opened as soon as a DM allows poisons into his campaign. If you don't want to dilute spellcasters, ban poisons. But what D&D does is try to use flavor to discourage poisons without eliminating them. I am assuming that the DM wants to include poisons. If he does, they should be consistent. If he doesn't then there shouldn't be rules at all.
If anyone with a few ranks of craft poison and profession (herbalist) can duplicate many spell like effects, you're taking a card away from casters and giving it to many classes.
Cost is a major limitation on players. The wealth charts are guidelines for a reason. The pricing here is not going to be overwhelming for DMs who follow the wealth guidelines for PCs and NPCs. For DMs who don't, I imagine they already have problems with NPCs running around loaded up on potions and alchemy.
Let's say you dose a bottle of elven wine with enough poison to poison twelve elven dignitaries who are each expected to down a small glass for a nuptual toast? What if, instead of the wine being drunk by the elves, the high con barbarian grabs it and chugs the whole thing? One saving throw? That hardly seems right. Twelve saving throws? Well, if the barbarian has an insane Fortitude save, he can sit there drinking poisoned wine till the cows come home no worse for the wear, except for the alcohol, which he doesn't get a save against.
What I do is for the first dose, the DC is normal, for the second it's raised by one and so on with each successive dose. Somewhere between his first pinch of arsenic and eating his body weight in the stuff, the barbarian should finally be dead.
As for bleach, lye and so forth, those are all just caustics and do straight HP damage per round of exposure. If you ingest them, you cannot avoid exposure.
ReaderOfPosts,
You make a good point about Concentration checks being harder on barbarians than casters, because barbarians probably didn't take ranks in Concentration. On the other hand, melee fighters probably already have decent Con bonuses. Moreover, melee fighters have decent Fortitude saves, meaning they are less likely to be affected by Distracting Poisons in the first place (and the Con bonus helps on the untrained Concentrate check). In the end, I think it balances out.
True, but at most this is, for most characters, what, a +3 modifier to Concentrate? And it's Cross-class and they tend to have low Int? A Spellcaster, by contrast, is going benefit from having enough Concentrate to regularly reach (15+the highest level spell he can cast), making Distracted largely irrelevant for Spellcasters, and about as crippling as Bestow Curse on warrior-types (~50% chance of acting sounds about right).
I REALLY like what you have done here
Thanks!!
if, for example, i wanted to make a venom w/ DC 20 that did 1d6 Con/1d6 Con how would the math look?
Sure thing.
[list][*]Constitution damage poison has a Condition Level of 3
Totally dig this post. I've built a similar, but not as thorough, poison system as you provided here. Good stuff.
For folks looking to make poison even more potent, you can add reduced effects that occur even if you make the save (but with far more dire repercussions should you fail).
Example
This poison listing:
Insanity mist Inhalant 15 1d4/2d6 Wis
Could be modified to read as follows:
Insanity mist Inhalant 15 1d4 (save for half + Shaken)/2d6 Wis (save for half + Frightened)
You basically allow for a save for damage effect where appropriate and possibly some condition thrown in that hints at what this thing could've done if it really hit you...
Insanity mist Inhalant 15 1d4/2d6 Wis
Could be modified to read as follows:
Insanity mist Inhalant 15 1d4 (save for half + Shaken)/2d6 Wis (save for half + Frightened)
You basically allow for a save for damage effect where appropriate and possibly some condition thrown in that hints at what this thing could've done if it really hit you...
For folks looking to make poison even more potent, you can add reduced effects that occur even if you make the save (but with far more dire repercussions should you fail).
That's an interesting concept. How would you price such a feature?
Keeping the fixative-style poison as a touch attack seems fine to me, but I'd make it more rare (and therefore expensive).
Pricing is based on its utility, not its rarity, just as it is with regard to magic items.
Also, I've used poisons in previous campaigns that had effects that only lasted for the duration of an encounter. This allows you do some short-term crippling stuff to people, only to have them recover once the immediate battle ends...
That's fine, but it really limits the usefulness of delay poison and neutralize poison spells.
How would you price such a feature?
No change in price in my campaign. Hard to say how you'd price it in another campaign (to keep it in similar lines to other effects).
You have a number of condition categories that are essentially ramped in intensity:
- Sickened -> Nauseated
- Dazed -> Stunned
- Fatigued -> Exhausted
- Ability Damaged -> Ability Drained
- Shaken -> Frightened -> Panicked
- Dazzled -> Blinded
You'd assign a cost to each level as appropriate...just like you mentioned in your op.
Pricing is based on its utility, not its rarity, just as it is with regard to magic items.
I price everything based on existing precedent and assume that more powerful things tend to be more rare. So...I agree with your statement.
That's fine, but it really limits the usefulness of delay poison and neutralize poison spells.
Based on the descriptions of those two spells, this rule shouldn't make these spells any less effective.
The big advantage to making the effects only last for an encounter is that you can get more potent effects at a lower cost (since the durations are far more limited). For anything that has a duration reduced in such a manner, I'd probably just have the terminal effect apply...
Just look at most other real life poisons.
As I wrote in my OP, poisons in D&D are nothing like real-world poisons. At all. In any way. They are a unique mechanic all their own. They've never resembled such real-world poisons in any edition.
If you want real-world poison effects, apply the rules for disease.
You'd assign a cost to each level as appropriate...
You know, I really like this concept.
I might rule it this way:
Lingering Poisons: Some poisons are so potent that they can cause lesser conditions even with a successful save. If a character successfully saves against the initial effect of a lingering poison by less than 10 more than needed, a lesser related condition will be imposed. This condition will terminate at the end of the minute. If a character successfully saves against the terminal effect of a lingering poison by less than 10 more than needed, the lesser relate condition will be imposed for a duration, treating the poison's DC as 10 higher.
If a character fails against the terminal effect, then the lesser related effect will be imposed on the character upon the expiration of the lingering effect, and will last as long as the lingering effect lasted (if the lesser related effect is Ability Damage, the effect will last for one hour per point damaged).
Lingering poisons cost 50% more than their non-lingering counterparts.
Making negative levels automatically disappear on an hourly basis drastically decreases the severity of this condition (especially for high level adventurers). Thus, it should not be a level 9 condition.
To balance touch attacks to apply fixative poisons with other special combat maneuvers, this action should provoke an AoO unless the proper feat is taken.
Lastly, as expensive as poisons are, their decay rate could stand to be a bit slower. I'm not going to pay 500 gp for a one-use item that becomes useless in less than a month.
In other comments. Applying pricing based off of potency of the poison is probably the best option, but the members that have commented regarding "exotic/availability" have a point. Funnily enough that point is moot in regards to your "baseline prices" the poisons should have baseline values based on their effects, then if you as a DM want that poison (or set of poisons) to be more available or less available in an area .. just do it. It has been a long standing tradition of mine to have discount bags (sashes, belts, caps, gloves, and boots) of holding available at you nearest Halfling shire. Cloaks of Elven Kind... half price at the Elven City etc etc etc.
Maybe spontaneously casting poison spells?
Is it just me or would malyss root paste cost 300 gp instead of 360 gp if the damage was 2d4/2d4 instead of 1/1?
Malyss root paste is currently 1 Dex/2d4 Dex. The reason why it's so expensive is because it is "unbalanced".
If the damage was 1 Dex/1 Dex it would only cost 60 gp/dose (and be unhelpful)
If the damage was 2d4 Dex/2d4 Dex it would cost 300 gp/dose.
Sometimes I think that 1 Dex was supposed to be a drain, not damage. If that were true, it should cost 600 gp/dose (1 Dex drain/2d4 Dex damage)
I've found that the immediate damage/one minute later thing is pretty unrealistic. Most poisons do not have an immediate effect, and many take a long time to manifest. Just look at the recent poisoning of former soviet KGB agent Alexander Litvinenko with polonium 210. He certainly did not stand up and say "Hey! I failed my save! That'll be twelve constitution damage!". He took weeks to even be affected. And that's just an extreme example. Just look at most other real life poisons.
Maybe you could have a new category of poisons, though for the life of me I can't remember what it's called (with the amount of mystery novels I read, I should though). It has a ridiculously-low initial damage, or maybe none at all, just a vague sensation of -- something. The real (secondary) damage occurs later, spread out over time. The victim might get an extra save, and might not. The damage is gradual; let's say for sake of simplicity, in my example, that it's 7 con, in a week (possibly rather silly, but the math's easier). First day they lose 1 con, next day another 1 con, etc.
Just thinking, maybe something that's REALLY gradual (like say, spread out over a few months), the victim should have to make a WIS check to notice the problem, and even then they might not know where it's from.
Feel free to ignore this if it doesn't make sense, as I haven't read over the poisons section in ages.
I would give a -2 circumstance bonus to saving throws vs poison for each subsequent dose of the same poison, and you could do the same if someone figured out how to give multiple doses in one go.
As far as small or large creatures are concerned, it would depend a lot on circumstances. For an ingested poison, multiple doses should have a real effect. The same dose that would affect a medium creature ought to affect a small creature as if it were a double-sized dose, while it might take four doses to affect a large creature in the same way as a single dose to a medium creature. For a blade venom, one might argue that a small creature is exposed to proportionately less of the venom smeared on the blade, so the effect remains roughly equivalent. Same for contact poison.
Poisoning seems to me to be a situation that requires a lot of ad-hoc modifiers on the part of the DM. And many poisons should have a minor effect even if the victim *does* make his saving throw. The above system seems rather complicated to me, but the DMG poisons are far too tame.
Cheers, --- Wheldrake
Dosage is an important issue. What happens when that giant spider bites you a second time? Or a third? Is the save DC the same?
I would leave it the same. There's always a temptation, when determining any circumstance modifiers, to create them for everything that could possibly affect the outcome. But the d20 system is not intended to be so finely tuned. I think a large-sized dose of poison is simply two medium sized doses combined together. So drinking a large-sized dose of poison merely requires two simultaneous saves. I think that accommodates the increased risk from dosage fine.
As far as small or large creatures are concerned, it would depend a lot on circumstances.
Well, there was discussion about this earlier. In the end, I think that the Con modifiers for Size already deal with the affect of a Medium dosage on a Tiny creature.
Poisoning seems to me to be a situation that requires a lot of ad-hoc modifiers on the part of the DM.
I think that is a temptation born of a desire to convert D&D poisons into real life poisons, and I don't think that is going to be a useful endeavor.
Good questions!
Malyss root paste is currently 1 Dex/2d4 Dex. The reason why it's so expensive is because it is "unbalanced".
If the damage was 1 Dex/1 Dex it would only cost 60 gp/dose (and be unhelpful)
If the damage was 2d4 Dex/2d4 Dex it would cost 300 gp/dose.
Sometimes I think that 1 Dex was supposed to be a drain, not damage. If that were true, it should cost 600 gp/dose (1 Dex drain/2d4 Dex damage)
I know why it's so expensive. I'm just questioning if your system is balanced, considering a stronger poison has a cost reduction.
I know why it's so expensive. I'm just questioning if your system is balanced, considering a stronger poison has a cost reduction.
I think the reason for making expensive poisons more expensive is because they tend to make people poorly allocate their resources.
If you get poisoned and fail a save, but only take 1 point of Ability damage, you might not bother with antivenom, neutralize poison or other resources, figuring your worst case scenario is another point of Ability Damage. And then wham! You lose 2d6 Dex.
Conversely, if you get his with 2d6 Dex, you might waste a potion of neutralize poison, thinking you've got another 2d6 Dex damage on the horizon, when, in fact, you'll only get another point of damage.
So making it more expensive offsets the temptation to use cheap unbalanced poisons to force people to waste defenses before you hit them with the expensive balanced poisons down the road.
Addressing the question of cheap poisons like wood alcohol, it might be an idea to permit a special modifier of "common poison", whereby the cost is significantly reduced but the effects can be recognized and neutralized by an easy Heal check. This would probably be restricted to a fairly low ceiling of condition level and potency, and to ingested and inhaled poisons. Beyond "realism" (it's not terribly realistic, after all) this has the benefit of opening poisons to poor/low-level characters - it's a common enough trope to have weaker heroes sneak poison into the ogre's meal, but poisons are generally too expensive to permit this in D&D. (Also, this gives some value back to Heal, which is rarely of use with even a low-level divine caster around.)
It would also be nice to have some method of delayed onset for the terminal phase.. the way to go would probably be price modifiers tiered by time category (up to ten minutes, ten minutes to an hour, an hour to six hours, six hours to a day) but I'm not sure just what modifiers to apply.
All in all I think you have a great system. However, one thing sticks out at me both because I would personally find it annoying and because it is inconsistent with your "add fun, not complexity" method. The sore spot in question? The weekly decay of poisons.
What does this possibly do to enhance the playing experience? Magic items do not normally lose strength over time--certainly not once per week. If you are trying to make poison effects consistent with magic item effects, a time-sensitive save DC certainly doesn't help.
Additionally, as pointed out above, it really robs the item of usefulness (and fun). The best poisons (like the best scrolls) are expensive, powerful, one-use items. That means their "niche" is as holdout items. You know... that single dose of venom you've had on your character sheet for months that you don't pull out until the verge of a TPK. If poisons decay weekly, they don't fulfill their niche and they certainly aren't worth the prices you are assigning.
Plus, the rule is complicated. I'm sure there are players somewhere in the world who can remember to change the save DC of their items once every in-game week, and DMs who are okay with reminding them, but I've never met the one nor the other. I would suggest the following change:
Poisons stored properly (usually in a tinted, sealed glass vial) can retain their potency a long time, and are just as deadly when used years later as they were when first bottled.
Dated Poisons: In exchange for a price reduction, most poisons can be purchased with an expiration date. These unstable variants are prepared quickly, without proper filtering. They perform just like the stable version of the poison, but two weeks after their date of manufacture they become useless (if somewhat foul-tasting) liquids, unable to harm even a fly.
Just a thought. Alternately, the Dated Poison's save DC could simply be cut in half at the two-week mark, and not decay further after that.
AP