First off, this is my first attempt at a spell casting character. My party already has a very violent wizard and a cleric who is even more violent. My exisiting character, his bard buddy, and practically the whole party, is as violent and evil as they get. Therefore, when I decided to make myself a new spell casting character, I decided the apostle of peace will add the most flavour to the party and also because my dm wont let the party have a second arcane spell caster.
This being my first spell caster, I also decided the first 10 levels would all be of the same class to keep things simple. So far I have my eye on classes which use wisdom as their main stat, either a cloistered cleric or the druid variant which loses wildshape in exchange for fast movement and wisdom bonus to AC (both from UA).
So my question is, can a character with the full 10 levels of the apostle of peace be any good? My understanding of spell casting classes is:
-the more spells you can cast and the higher their levels the better.
-the higher your spell caster level, the better.
-wizards and sorcerers are the best, depending who casts first.
From what I have seen however, the apostle of peace:
-Can at most cast one 9th level spell.
-Maximum spell caster level for Apostle spells at level 20 is 15.
-Is not a wizard/sorcerer.
Second, I'd advise getting into the class as soon as possible so as to get the most of its accelerated casting. You can definitely get in before 10th level.
Third, your caster level can be as high as 19 with the Practiced Spellcaster feat.
First of all, an apostle of peace in a very violent party could end up being very very problematic.
Yes. I understand that. That is precisely why I am choosing the apostle of peace.
So I am looking at Baseclass 7/Apostle 10/SomethingElse 3?
I am assuming prestige classes which provide spell advancements wont add anymore spells per day if I already have 10 levels of the apostle of peace?
One option would be Wizard 7 (or Sorcerer) / Apostle 2 / Mystic Theurge 8. Lot of spells.
Another option would be stacking auras/buffs/bardic music somehow to help your party.
Wisdom-to-AC druid sounds like a decent entry as well, or perhaps a 1-lvl dip. Cleric with the right domains could help to with feats to set up for divine metamagic.
Monk 2/ Marshal 3/ Paladin 5/ Apostle of Peace 10
Like 18 for intelligence and wisdom, 8 for everything else?
Monk2/ardent4/Marshall2/Apostle2/Psychic Thurge10
Psychic thurge: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20...
you get:
Wis to AC
Wis based Psyonics and Divine Casting
Powers from 3 chosen Mantles
Divine Caster Level (incl. Practiced Spellcaster) 16 (or 25 in case you count psyonics as "caster levels")
Manifester level 18 (incl. practiced manifester)
9th lvl divine spells and powers
one minor and one major aura
mantle powers
3 important stats (in this order: WIS, CHA, DEX (CON)) and high bonusses out of your vow of poverty
nice will save and ok ref and fort
high ac
just my 2cents
Wizard/sorcerer 7
AoP 2
Mystic theurge 10
Prestige class with arcane spell advancement 1
Will be attempting to take the saint template.
I will get Arcane spellcaster level of 18, divine spell caster level of 16.
It seems to me that sorcerers have somewhat better synergy with the saint template boost to charisma and the AoP having turn undead. On the other hand wizards can learn more spells and get more skills.
Hell, make a Apostel Grey Guard and start making some creative diplomacy
OR ... go all Wis-based Casting + Psyonic:
Monk 2/ Ardent 4/ Marshall 2/ Apostle of Peace 2/ Psychic Thurge 10
Psychic thurge: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20...
you get:
Wis to AC
Wis based Psyonics and Divine Casting
Powers from 3 chosen Mantles
Divine Caster Level (incl. Practiced Spellcaster) 16 (or 25 in case you count psyonics as "caster levels")
Manifester level 18 (incl. practiced manifester)
9th lvl divine spells and powers
one minor and one major aura
mantle powers
3 important stats (in this order: WIS, CHA, DEX (CON)) and high bonusses out of your vow of poverty
nice will save and ok ref and fort
high ac
just my 2cents
very nice... or you might adjust like this:
Monk 2/ Ardent 6/ Marshall 2/ Apostle of Peace 2/ Psychic Thurge 8
since you have 2 levels of AoP casting already... you only need 8 more to max out the Divine Spell casting
gives 14th lvl Manifester before Practiced Manifester
Wouldnt a wizard 7/apostle 2/mystic theurge 8 require some kind of obscene point buy?
Like 18 for intelligence and wisdom, 8 for everything else?
You don't have to have an 18 to be an effective spellcaster... like at all. In fact, I hardly ever actually put an 18 in anything with point buy unless it is obscenely high (like 40+ points, or 36+ on a guy I don't expect to ever get hurt). I'd rather have a decent Con, and other secondary stats, usually, and just go to 16 with my casting stat.
Ok, so far:
Wizard/sorcerer 7
AoP 2
Mystic theurge 10
Prestige class with arcane spell advancement 1
Will be attempting to take the saint template.
I will get Arcane spellcaster level of 18, divine spell caster level of 16.
It seems to me that sorcerers have somewhat better synergy with the saint template boost to charisma and the AoP having turn undead. On the other hand wizards can learn more spells and get more skills.
Hi Clef,
I'm not sure where you are, but I am planning on taking the Apostle of Peace Prestige class, all 10 levels.
I'm currently a 10HD character, and easily the most powerful character in my party, which consists of a Mind Mage, a Sorcerer, a 6 Ninja/2 Rogue/2 Fighter, and a 10 Fighter, all of which have good magic items.
I began to develop this character with the Apostle of Peace Prestige class in mind.
The important things that I stress are not in the spell casting abilities, but in the abilities provided by feats and classes.
I started out a Human 1st level.
My 1st level human feat was Sacred Vow.
My 1st level character feat was Vow of Poverty
My 1st level Vow of Poverty Bonus Feat was Vow of Nonviolence
My 2nd level Vow of Poverty Bonus Feat was Vow of Peace.
As you know in developing your Apostle of Peace, these are requirements. The Vow of Poverty is exceptionally useful in developing your character.
At 6th Level, I added two templates to my character: The Saint template, and the Half-Celestial Template.
I have 6 class levels:
1 Cleric/1 Favored Soul/4 Monk
Next character level, I will be able to take classes again.
I will go 2 levels of Paladin, and then begin my Apostle of Peace levels.
Due to the benefits provided by these feats, templates, and classes, I have an AC of 52, and a total attack bonus of +15, bonus feats from the Vow of Poverty that allow me to do my holy damage as nonlethal (thereby keeping the Vow of Peace), very high saving throws (which will get higher when my Paladin level hits 2 due to divine grace), a high spell resistance, and exceptional spell-like abilities that circumvent expensive material components.
There are two evil members of my party. The Double-Strength Magic Circle Against Evil makes it difficult for my party members to cast spells. My calming aura provided by the Vow of Peace still throws off people with weak will saving throws.
Most importantly though, I think that the Apostle of Peace class is more of a Role-Playing challenge than anything else. My DM knows what I have planned for my character, and insists that I play the character as if I were an Apostle of Peace already, holding me to the ideals of the character.
I guess that my suggestion for you would be to develop your character with templates and feats, rather than class levels of something else.
OR ... go all Wis-based Casting + Psyonic:
Monk 2/ Ardent 4/ Marshall 2/ Apostle of Peace 2/ Psychic Thurge 10
Psychic thurge: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20...
you get:
Wis to AC
Wis based Psyonics and Divine Casting
Powers from 3 chosen Mantles
Divine Caster Level (incl. Practiced Spellcaster) 16 (or 25 in case you count psyonics as "caster levels")
Manifester level 18 (incl. practiced manifester)
9th lvl divine spells and powers
one minor and one major aura
mantle powers
3 important stats (in this order: WIS, CHA, DEX (CON)) and high bonusses out of your vow of poverty
nice will save and ok ref and fort
high ac
just my 2cents
very nice... or you might adjust like this:
Monk 2/ Ardent 6/ Marshall 2/ Apostle of Peace 2/ Psychic Thurge 8
since you have 2 levels of AoP casting already... you only need 8 more to max out the Divine Spell casting
gives 14th lvl Manifester before Practiced Manifester
True ... BUT ... I also have manifesterlvl 14 before Practiced Manifester ... thus Manifester lvl 18 and thus 9th Spells (just like your variant would have) with PM ...
BUT
I get 2 more Casterlvls for the divine side - sure, that is not much but at least it only comes with the cost of one single mantle - that a choice of flavor i guess at this point
Grab Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Intuitive Attack. You'll be adding twice your wis mod to attack rolls, and you'll be adding your strength and wisdom to damage rolls. You get access to 9th level divine spells, and if you want to boost them, you could just take Practiced Caster. Your unarmed damge is 4d8 + Str Mod + Wis Mod + Exalted Bonus + Misc. If you're using a Point Buy, slam everything you can into Wisdom, because it controls just about everything for this character.
For an alternate, powerful boost, forget the Protector of Shiba and generic warrior, cut out two levels of Monk, and snag 4 levels of Paladin. Grab Ascetic Knight and Serenity. This'll boost your saves, and your Turns per Day, so you can focus on DMM Persist.
True ... BUT ... I also have manifesterlvl 14 before Practiced Manifester ... thus Manifester lvl 18 and thus 9th Spells (just like your variant would have) with PM ...
BUT
I get 2 more Casterlvls for the divine side - sure, that is not much but at least it only comes with the cost of one single mantle - that a choice of flavor i guess at this point
the point i was making was this ...... Apostle of Peace only has 10 levels, thus for Maximum spell casting capacity, you only need 10 levels.... i.e. Apostle of Peace 2/ Psychic Theurge 8 .... going Apostle of Peace 2/ Psychic Theurge 10 does not give you anything except +2 CL, spells per day remain the same ..... it would be better to simply take Practiced Caster(Apostle of Peace)
Bind a Blood Golem for more cheese.
I forget the details, but a bunch of the spells become much more tasty.
ymmv
Combination soulbinding 18 (up to 3 max level vestiges), full divine casting and VoPov there should give plenty of fun combinations. It's bad in the "keeping it simple" department though, but fun and flavourful.
There are entire threads out there on the interwebs that discuss this - you CAN own and use a spell component pouce (arcane casters) you CANNOT own OR use a holy symbol (DIVINE FOCUS). Why? Vow of Poverty (which is cracktastically required for this DIVINE SPELLCASTING class).
My personal view is that VOP shouldn't be a prerequisite to this class, and even the class text ITSELF is betraying "As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor)." - Note according to VOP doing this will instantly and irretractibly break the vow and thereby destroy your prerequisites for even getting INTO the PRC - meaning you don't qualify for the PRC anymore and then lose all of those abilities as well as all of your exalted feats (AKA your other vows that you recieved through Vow of Poverty).
So, assuming you don't fall for the trick of "Use magic items, vow of poverty guy!" then you're in for a treat - with the exception of the Cure line of spells, nearly every Cleric spell requires a Divine Focus, or a Material Component. Merely holding the component isn't the issue - it is the use of any item that is prohibited.
As taken from VOP: "To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material posessions, with the following exceptions:" And in that exception list is NOT a holy symbol. You can't even use a friggan wooden spoon.
What this means is, for the Apostle of Peace, you have to look through the spell list that is granted to you and remember to never cast the ones that require... anything... to cast. By the way, this includes the Raise Dead line of spells.
This only further confuses the crap out of me as the Apostle of Peace has turn undead - which outright requires a Cleric (or Paladin) to brandish their holy symbol in some manner, thereby making use of it.
1)feat from Faiths of Eberron..... World Focus(IIRC)... allows you to cast spells without Holy Symbol
2)PrC ..... from Secrets of Xendrick(IIRC) ....Landforged Walker... his body becomes his holy symbol
but in most situations it is reasonable for a mature DM to allow a VOP character to keep his holy Symbol(provided its not a magic item) if it is simple and hand made
While any DM can circumvent any rule s/he wishes at any time for any reason or completely arbitrarily, rules as written (and there were no changes to this in the BOED Errata to this) states that you can't use a Holy symbol.
the is a Spell that can allow a Druid to Turn Undead, and it requires NO holy Symbol ......... if the PrC has a Class Ability that gives it the power to Turn Undead, but the Pre-Reqs have a Feat that precludes the use of the Class Ability.... it would be reasonable to simply allow the character to do it, since that is why the Class Ability exists for the PrC in the first place ... it would be a Reasonable Circumstance where an exception would be made
The AoP does get access to his portion of the treasure values, to have it dispersed as he wishes; presumeably milk-sop Good with a capital G. Material Components can be given back to the AoP so that he can cast spells for the good of the blah blah fluff text. The deity can yank the divine spells at anytime if the AoP ain't AoP enough.
**
I had an idea about an Intelligent Item Holy Symbol providing the 10 Ranks of skill X, as an early entry tactic. Then the AoP would (obviously) keep the holy symbol, while still ditching everything else. Never bothered with it. Might need Warforged + Fusion + PAO + sillyness etc ... throw in a bit of Ur-Priest to get a ~doubters version (wink).