So far I was thinking Half Drow Paladin of Tyranny2/Sorcerer4/Abjurant Champion 5
Books allowed: Any Forgotten Realms,All Completes(except Champion) Dungeonscape and All Psionics
We are based in Menzoberranzan so any Underdark race will work.
We also get a free feat for our background.
I was looking for some help improving this build and also some good feats.
Any help in this endeavor would be welcome
Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion4
Or something.
As for feats, power attack is very effective with wraithstrike, and so is arcane strike.
Other than those essentials, I like weapon focus, improved initiative, improved toughness. They're nothing spectacular but they work.
Practiced spellcaster is also probably a good idea, given that you have lost two caster levels.
EDIT: Or if you don't like wielding 2 handers and want something different, try taking:
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapon Finesse
Power Attack
Dual wield rapiers and be a dex based gish. Arcane Strike doesn't work with both rapiers, though, so you might not take it and choose to rely on Abjurant Champion's similar ability instead.
It also gives you a multiclass penalty, as neither class is favored for drow, but that may or may not be an issue for you (I know several DM's that ignore it).
If you aren't playing with LA buyback, almost no race with an LA is worth taking as a caster. The loss of caster levels is too much of a pain to overcome (especially in high levels).
If you want to stick with Drow, I personally prefer the following Gish build.
Martial Wizard (or Transmuter) 2/Fighter 1/Drow Paragon 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 4
That gives you a caster level of 9 (same as your build above, except as wiz, you get 5ths), BAB of 9 (one less than above, if it's battle sorcerer), and the same number of base spells/lvl as above (assuming battle sorcerer variant). Plus you get all the benefits of being drow, fewer negs, and no xp penalty.
You could also go human, assuming the LA isn't being ignored, that would give you two extra character levels to play with. The above build would become...
Human Paragon 1/Fighter 1/Martial Wizard (or Transmuter) 2/Human Paragon +2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 1
That's a BAB of 11, Caster level of 10(11), a whole mess of combat feats, and a solid spell selection.
The only feat you need is Combat Casting, but not because it's a good feat (it's a pre-req for AbC).
Beyond that, I like Improved Init, Arcane Strike, and the Cleave tree. If I can get away with it, I'll take EWP-Goliath Greathammer and abuse the hell out of Greater Mighty Wallop for my primary damage.
If you can get away with it as a human, the two Regional feats I like are either Otherworldly (for polymorph abuse and free Darkvision/Martial weapon prof) or Mercantile Background (for equipment cost and WBL abuse). As a drow, I like Magic in the Blood or Mind over Body. (that's all from memory though, make sure you can actually take them)
hence the good pal synergy i could imagine something like this:
Pal2/BSSorc4/AbjurantChamp5
Further advancement would be Spellsword1/EldrichKnight rest
so, what do you get so far?:
BaB10, Casting as lvl 9 sorc with CL10, free weapon focus feat for one weapon, Casting in light armor
things further to consider:
switch your familiar for the divine Companion ACF (Complete Champion)
IMPORTANT!:
Stallwart Sorcerer + Battle Sorcerer:
you loose: 1 spell per day (max 0) + 1 spell known of every level (max 1), 1 spell known of highest level (max 1) --> except for level 3 and level 20 this means, you know one spell less of every level (aka, you do not really loose anything by being stalwart and battle sorc at the same time)
you gain: proficiency with two martial weapons (obsolete, since you have all out of pala) and free weapon focus for one weapon of choice, d8+2 HD (effectively d12 regarding average HP), medium BaB, casting in light armor
Divine Companion: VERY usefull for only a hand full of spellslots per day!
Important feats:
Combat Casting (Prereq for AC), Vers. Spellcaster, Power Attack, Arcane strike (@ lvl 9!)
Important spells:
Enlarge Person, Shield
Wraithstrike
Fly, Haste
Polymorph
At your level you'd lose only 1 caster level but INT matters much more than CHA.
Paladin 4/Scout 2/Dragon Devotee 5 and into Unseen Seer after that. Perhaps Paladin 4/Scout 2/Dragon Devotee 4/Unseen Seer 1 is more optimized. Travel Devotion and skirmish them to death. Dragon Devotee + Unseen Seer nets you more skirmish bonus damage than a Scout 20.
Wizard4/Sorcerer1/UltimateMagus6
Taking practiced caster (sorcerer) and advancing sorcerer casting at level 4 casts as a wizard9/sorc6. With practical metamagic(persist), you can persist sorcerer spells of 3rd level or lower at character level 11.
I can't speak for your DM but I have found that in general the less complex the build the more likely it is to get the green light. Thats been my experience. Make it a point to exchange the special mount for something else.
an old standby is of course: Paladin of Tyranny 5/sorc 1/abjurant champion 5
I can't speak for your DM but I have found that in general the less complex the build the more likely it is to get the green light. Thats been my experience. Make it a point to exchange the special mount for something else.
What? This build sucks hard. Sorcadins are Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 or the like. More than two levels of Paladin screws up your casting really hard and with a build like this you simply need to focus on casting. Paladin 5 without anything to rely on (like Scout levels for divine charge/travel devotion goodness) is simply not worth it.
On an off-note, does your name have any reference to ham, pork or pigs by any chance, TS?
And I'd have to say getting another class level, possibly Spellsword (so you actually qualify for Abjurant Champion) would be better than the LA.
I think I'm the only person who likes playing Ultimate Magus gish.
Wizard4/Sorcerer1/UltimateMagus6
Taking practiced caster (sorcerer) and advancing sorcerer casting at level 4 casts as a wizard9/sorc6. With practical metamagic(persist), you can persist sorcerer spells of 3rd level or lower at character level 11.
You aren't the only one, but the build above needs work for gishy goodness...
Beguiler 1/Martial Transmuter 1/Human Paragon 3/Ultimate Magus 4/Incantatrix 2
Is much more solid. No (well, less) MAD, and in one level, you get metamagic effect so you can freely persist the Divine Power you get from Arcane Disciple-Competition and have full BAB along with a 18/8 casting tree (at 20) with CL's of ~24/16. And you don't need to take any of the (generally sucky) draconic feats.
At 20 the build would look more like...
Beguiler 1/Martial Transmuter 1/Human Paragon 3/Ultimate Magus 4/Incantatrix 4/Ultimate Magus +6/Whatever your favorite +1 CL class 1
You aren't the only one, but the build above needs work for gishy goodness...
Beguiler 1/Martial Transmuter 1/Human Paragon 3/Ultimate Magus 4/Incantatrix 2
Is much more solid. No (well, less) MAD, and in one level, you get metamagic effect so you can freely persist the Divine Power you get from Arcane Disciple-Competition and have full BAB along with a 18/8 casting tree (at 20) with CL's of ~24/16. And you don't need to take any of the (generally sucky) draconic feats.
At 20 the build would look more like...
Beguiler 1/Martial Transmuter 1/Human Paragon 3/Ultimate Magus 4/Incantatrix 4/Ultimate Magus +6/Whatever your favorite +1 CL class 1
I was just trying to keep my build simple to point out the general idea.
As far as yours goes, as I recall it doesn't work. I thought Incantatrix got their potent metamagic stuff at levels 7, 8 & 9. So you would need to be:
Beguiler1/Wizard4/UltimateMagus6/Incantatrix9
Or something. 19/5 casting in my example, or 18/6 if preferred. Spontaneous side is too weak for it to be much good. Only get a few (6) free metamagics from UM (quickens if 18/6 is used)... I doubt it's worth it.
A Wizard5/Incantatrix7 could certainly pretend to be a gish though.
EDIT: DARNIT! Was remembering the wrong Incantatrix. Damn their 3rd level ability to hell.
Elf conjurer5/eldrtich Knight2/Abjurant champion5/eldritch knight 8 (BaB +17, CL 19)
With the feat Otherworldly you gain martial weapon proficiency, so you qualify.
Conjuration is because its the best school, and more importantly; because it gives you "Abrupt Jaunt". You drop necromancy/evocation. If you go specialised conjurer you can also drop enchantment (but it have such flavour I always miss it
)Now onto your exact case
You are a drow, so you don't qualify for Otherworldly, nor for Militia, so first suggestion is to ask you GM to be allowed to take the first one (not a stretch at all given the drows tie to demons).
If this doesn't work out you need to get martial weapon proficiency through a full BaB class. Which class? Barbarian. Its a great level anyway, since you get pounce, whirling frenzy, skills and hp (you take barb level at level 1).
So, Barbarian1/Wizard5/Eldritch Knight2/Abjurant champion5/Eldritch knight7.
BaB +17, CL 18. Another nice thing here is how clean it is. This build h ave dipping potential, but dipping have little practical benefit (spellsword lets you wear armor when you already have greater louminous armor for a nice +13 AC, no reason)
If you want the paladin route, listen to the others ;)
As far as yours goes, as I recall it doesn't work. I thought Incantatrix got their potent metamagic stuff at levels 7, 8 & 9. So you would need to be:
Nope, best ability (besides the one at 10) for Incantatrix comes at class level 3 (which my build gets at Character level 12). Metamagic Effect lets them use any metamaic feat they know 3+Int times a day on any ongoing spell effect with a spellcraft check. You're probably thinking of the 3.0 version of Incantatrix, which was awesome, but massively upgraded in the 3.5 version.
That class ability coupled with Persist Spell is by far the most potent use a class ability available (at least, with an arcane Gish). It allows you to keep up many, if not all, of your available rd/lvl buffs all day, for free.
My build above does in deed work, and work well.
Or something. 19/5 casting in my example, or 18/6 if preferred. Spontaneous side is too weak for it to be much good. Only get a few (6) free metamagics from UM (quickens if 18/6 is used)... I doubt it's worth it.
A Wizard5/Incantatrix7 could certainly pretend to be a gish though.
I think you misunderstand the basic point of the class abilities an ultimate magus has. You're 'weak side' casting isn't there for actual spells (well, maybe some for utility, or to shore up specialization costs), it's to burn for free metamagic with the Augmented Casting class ability.
At 20, my build above can burn a 3rd level beguiler spell to Chain (up to) a 5th level Wizard Spell (like, for example, Spell Theft), or burn a 4th to Quicken, or a 2nd to Empower, or a 1st to Extend (for example), and he's got the slots to do it all day.
Lesser Drow (PGF 191)
+0 LA
Elf minus Low light, weapon profs, plus proficiency with rapier & hand crossbow, plus 60ft darkvision and light blindness. +2 on will saves versus spells.
SLA- 1/day dancing lights, daze
The build
Focused specialist abjurer 2/Samurai 2/Fighter 2/Abjurant champion 5
Focused specialist Abjurer 2, drop evocation, enchantment and either necromancy or illusion, whatever floats your boat. Weasel familiar, as your reflex save is likely sucky, else hummingbird for improved initiative.
Samurai 2 (CW) Gives you weapon prof (Bastard sword) and two weapon fighting with katana and wakazashi.
Fighter 2, with the alternate drow feature from drow of the underdark, giving up heavy armour for dex to damage to flat footed opponents. Two feats are improved toughness and power attack.
Abjurant Champion 5. Stuff.
Gives you caster level 10, BAB 10, access to fourth level spells, and swift extended abjurations, and arcane boost.
Feats
1- Combat casting
3- W Focus (Bastard sword)
6- Combat expertise
9- Arcane strike
This is what I'm using at the moment
Lesser Drow (PGF 191)
+0 LA
Elf minus Low light, weapon profs, plus proficiency with rapier & hand crossbow, plus 60ft darkvision and light blindness. +2 on will saves versus spells.
SLA- 1/day dancing lights, daze
The build
Focused specialist abjurer 2/Samurai 2/Fighter 2/Abjurant champion 5
Focused specialist Abjurer 2, drop evocation, enchantment and either necromancy or illusion, whatever floats your boat. Weasel familiar, as your reflex save is likely sucky, else hummingbird for improved initiative.
Samurai 2 (CW) Gives you weapon prof (Bastard sword) and two weapon fighting with katana and wakazashi.
Fighter 2, with the alternate drow feature from drow of the underdark, giving up heavy armour for dex to damage to flat footed opponents. Two feats are improved two weapon fighting and power attack.
Abjurant Champion 5. Stuff.
Gives you caster level 10, BAB 10, access to fourth level spells, and swift extended abjurations, and arcane boost.
Feats
1- Combat casting
3- W Focus (Bastard sword)
6- Combat expertise
9- Arcane Strike (Sacrifice spells for d4s of extra damage)
Ahhhhh, for the love of God, don't do it! Not that it's legal to begin with (You don't qualify for improved two-weapon fighting).
PouncingBarbarian1/Martial[Conjurer/Transmuter/Generalist]5/EldritchKnight2/AbjurantChampion3 ... (later) +2AbjurantChampion/+7EldritchKnight
Feats: (Assuming you want to wield 2 weapons)
1 two-weapon fighting
2(from wizard) oversized two-weapon fighting
3 power attack
6 combat casting
6(from wizard) weapon finesse
7(from EK) improved two-weapon fighting
9 somatic weaponry
12 great two-weapon fighting
15
18
Feats: (Better)
1 Combat casting
2(from wizard) Power attack
3
6 Leap Attack
6(from wizard)
7(from EK)
9 Arcane Strike
12
15
18
The Ultimate Magus gish idea is new to me, but it sounds like it might just work. I hope to try it myself someday... sigh, there are too many characters I'd like to play. Really any sort of spellcaster that can use Persistent Spell easily will work for this role. A long time ago in a land far far away, I got to play a Tireless Spelldancer.... those were good times.
My own 2 coppers... a lot of confused builds seem to be floating around here and I'd just like to make it completely plain that the optimized Gish wields a two-handed weapon and the Power Attack feat, along with spells like Wraithstrike and True Strike, to hit for a lot of damage. Other feats will be things like Otherworldly, Arcane Strike, Arcane Disciple (Competition), Extend/Persistent Spell, Improved Initiative, Practiced Spellcaster, etc.
You'll notice that all those funky fighter trees and the pile of feats necessary to get decent TWF going on are absent from this list. Those feats exist to make other characters feel better about not having spells. Somehow writing them on the character sheet allows those players to feel better about this. However, you have spells. See? You don't use TWF... you turn into a Hydra, Wraithstrike+Arcane Strike. If you take the TWF chain, over those quality feats I mentioned, may you be swallowed whole by a purple worm, represented on the gaming table by a large colorful sock with plastic eyes glued on.
Also, focused abjurer is a terrible idea. Shield you'll want 3 of, dispels you will not.
But more spells to sacrifice for combat bonuses (on all of the twf attacks)! That said, abjurer or generalist probably work just as well, I just posted what I was using.
Ahhhhh, for the love of God, don't do it! Not that it's legal to begin with (You don't qualify for improved two-weapon fighting).
That's true. Feats need swapping, sorry. But I stand by the build as being solid.
When dealing with Focused specialists, the question you always want to ask yourself is, "Are there at least 3 different spells from this school for each spell level that I'd want to memorize every day?" As a gish, I can easily think of 3 transmutation spells from 1-9 I'd want (if not 4 or 6 in some levels), it's a lot more challenging to say the same about abjuration (certainly not impossible, for me, as I like dispelling, a lot, mind you, but how many different dispels/day will you honestly *need*). In addition, unless you take collegiate wizard, you have to spend one of your 'free spells' every level on an abjuration spell, which isn't exactly optimal.
P.S. in the build you posted, you can't take both Improved TWF and Arcane strike before 12, as the only level you qualify for either of them that you have an open feat is at 9th. That's what he meant by illegal.
Focused Specialist Transmuter or Conjurer work way better than Abjurer, though, and that's the point. It's not that 'more spells=bad', it's that 'more spells you will actually use all the time=way way better'.
When dealing with Focused specialists, the question you always want to ask yourself is, "Are there at least 3 different spells from this school for each spell level that I'd want to memorize every day?" As a gish, I can easily think of 3 transmutation spells from 1-9 I'd want (if not 4 or 6 in some levels), it's a lot more challenging to say the same about abjuration (certainly not impossible, for me, as I like dispelling, a lot, mind you, but how many different dispels/day will you honestly *need*). In addition, unless you take collegiate wizard, you have to spend one of your 'free spells' every level on an abjuration spell, which isn't exactly optimal.
P.S. in the build you posted, you can't take both Improved TWF and Arcane strike before 12, as the only level you qualify for either of them that you have an open feat is at 9th. That's what he meant by illegal.
Yes, I'd forgotten that imp two weapon fighting had a bab prereq. Looked up both the feats just now, adjusted the build accordingly. I've never been much of a fan of the martial casting variants, though, people put funny restrictions on them.
This thread isn't about me, however, and I'll just end by saying that I quite like prot energy situationally as an abjuration third, (and also have a DM silly enough to houserule mage armour/ greater mage armour as an abjuration spell.)
That is all.
Yes, I'd forgotten that imp two weapon fighting had a bab prereq. Looked up both the feats just now, adjusted the build accordingly. I've never been much of a fan of the martial casting variants, though, people put funny restrictions on them.
This thread isn't about me, however, and I'll just end by saying that I quite like prot energy situationally as an abjuration third, (and also have a DM silly enough to houserule mage armour/ greater mage armour as an abjuration spell.)
That is all.
I actually happen to have an 11th level Gish in a long running campaign of mine it's a Hellbred Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 2/Abjurant Champion 5.
It's more of a melee gish than a spellcaster one, but take some of the Devil touched feats (like Devils Stamina and Devil's Flesh) you'll get a natural armor bonus along with HP and fast healing. Besides that Power Attack and a Greatsword are your friends. Spellwise you've got Wraithstrike, Haste, Sadism (BoVD), and Blade of blood to help you out.
The levels in Fighter to me are essential because you can take the Armored Mage alt class feature which allows you to cast in light armor. Another useful alt class feature is Resolute, allows you to half your AB and apply it to your will save as immediate action. Barbarian I took over Paladin because my DM said we already had a Paladin and it would be stepping on his toes. The fast movement, Rage, and Uncanny Dodge are very useful in combat. Tho I'm regretting not going Pounce alt class feature along with Whirling Frenzy but oh well. I chose Sorc over Wiz because as a gish you don't really need a lot of spells known but you do need a lot of spells per day. I also took the Alt class feature Spell Shield (Dungeonscape) allowing you to burn arcane spells to prevent 5x level of the spell in damage, again very useful in combat.
Bard gish
Human
Bard7/Spellthief2/EldritchKnight1/SublimeChord1/EldritchKnight9
25 28 32
Str 10 10 8
Dex 16 16 16
Con 14 14 14
Int 9 8 8
Wis 8 8 8
Cha 14 16 18
1 Two-Weapon Fighting
H Militia
3 Weapon Finesse
6 Snowflake Wardance
9 Master Spellthief
10 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12 Knowledge Devotion
15 Craven
18 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Bard7/Spellthief2/EldritchKnight1/SublimeChord1/EldritchKnight9
25 28 32
Str 10 10 8
Dex 16 16 16
Con 14 14 14
Int 9 8 8
Wis 8 8 8
Cha 14 16 18
1 Two-Weapon Fighting
H Militia
3 Weapon Finesse
6 Snowflake Wardance
9 Master Spellthief
10 Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
12 Knowledge Devotion
15 Craven
18 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Damnit, at first I thought it was True Shinken who was the OP. I hate all the similar avatars around here...
On an off-note, does your name have any reference to ham, pork or pigs by any chance, TS?
And I'd have to say getting another class level, possibly Spellsword (so you actually qualify for Abjurant Champion) would be better than the LA.
Ham? O.o Actually Shinken is a japanese word that could be written with lots of different kanji therefore having lots of different meanings. Those similar avatars always do confuse me too ^^
Still working on my feats though I was thinking of Arcane Strike and maybe a trip build. By the way unfortunetly the dm banned most forms of polymorph spells so that took away alot my ideas.
Anyways Thanks for all the help so far!
What? Wizard/Duskblade? From a CO perspective I must ask why... When you already have wizard 4, what does duskblade give you that wizard would not?
Arcane channeling, obviously. Not really worth it for 3 lost levels, but then again I've played wizard gish with Swashbuckler3, so I can't talk.
You only need two wizard levels (wiz 6), and thus only lose 1 BaB, and get reasonable saves, and no loss of CL. At that point you are free to do whatever, be it take a level of Barbarian (to get pounce), go into eldritch knight or something else.
.If this is allowed then I suggest going Warblade1/wizard 4/Abj champ 1/JPM 10/abj Champ 4.
This is pretty solid and I would love to try this out some time
.WOW! out of all the replies I am like SHOCKED! no one ever mentioned or even tried to ask if Tome of battle was allowed
If this is allowed then I suggest going Warblade1/wizard 4/Abj champ 1/JPM 10/abj Champ 4.
This is pretty solid and I would love to try this out some time
That wouldn't be doable since Abjurant Champion needs a +5 BAB, Warblade 1/Wizard 4 only gives you a +3 BAB. Sorry.
That wouldn't be doable since Abjurant Champion needs a +5 BAB, Warblade 1/Wizard 4 only gives you a +3 BAB. Sorry.
And even if it was legal you'd want the JPM to be after the AC anyways. Better maneuvers etc.
Here's a better one:
Bard4/Crusader1/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion2/EldritchKnight1/JadePhoenixMage1/SublimeChord1/AbjurantChampion3/SublimeChord1/EldritchKnight1/JadePhoenixMage4
or
Bard4/Crusader1/Spellsword1/Spellthief1/JadePhoenixMage3/SublimeChord2/Dragonslayer1/JadePhoenixMage7
or
Wizard6/JadePhoenixMage2/AbjurantChampion4/JadePhoenixMage8
That wouldn't be doable since Abjurant Champion needs a +5 BAB, Warblade 1/Wizard 4 only gives you a +3 BAB. Sorry.
MAN!, you must be a weird one, because I never mentioned doing it in that exact order, did I ? Uhh Noooooooooooo *shakes head*
Warblade 1, Wizard 4, JPM 2, then progress however you want. DER DE DER.
MAN!, you must be a weird one, because I never mentioned doing it in that exact order, did I ? Uhh Noooooooooooo *shakes head*
Warblade 1, Wizard 4, JPM 2, then progress however you want. DER DE DER.
Well generally you post the class in order you would take it.... you back to the short bus now
MAN!, you must be a weird one, because I never mentioned doing it in that exact order, did I ? Uhh Noooooooooooo *shakes head*
Warblade 1, Wizard 4, JPM 2, then progress however you want. DER DE DER.
And that one doesn't qualify for JPM, due to requiring 9 ranks in concentrate when at level 5 you can only have 8.
Your build is illegal.