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| #1nachtsiegerAug 06, 2008 1:43:17 | As the topic title says, I'm looking for an 18th level Gestalt Dervish, or to be exact, I'm looking to fill out the second side of the progression. My build as planned so far is "Swashbuckler 3 / Factotum 3 / Dervish 10 / Tempest 4// Fighter 2 /" I'm looking to fill the second side. The race has to be more or less human, ie: no monstrous races, and the half-race template has to keep me looking like a human somewhat, since I really have a thing for playing nothing but humans, although the setting of Eberron probably as a whole won't try to run me out with pitchforks and torches (although to be fair, if I'm 18th level, I can probably dance naked through the streets and I won't have many problems) I'm only looking for good filler levels for the second side's progression, and I'd like to keep the TWF dancer feel. I know that there are probably better TWF builds out there, but honestly, I havne't played 3.5 much and I'd like to give Dervish a whirl (oh me) because it just seems so awesome. Also, I'm trying not to cheese too much since this DM is acepting characters based more on background than crunchy awesome. I was thinking of Scout and Warblade for Skirmish and the INT Synergy/WRT/Cheeseguard Warrior/Boosts and Counters respectively, although I realy have no idea how I'd pull this off or if I even want this at all. I've gone through the Dervish Handbook and ToB for Dummies, both of which have helped and hindered me in various portions. And as a final note, I might or might not have my feats set out for me, so suggestions on feats, or alternate TWF Dervish Builds would be greatly appreciated, and as for books allowed, I'm allowed to pick basically any 3.5e sourcebook or Wizards published web material within reason. Also, equipment suggestions would be grand, the stuff I have is more or less kind of plain in comparison to CharOp and their crazy items from every sourcebook known to 3.5. EDIT: The stats I have to work with are 15, 18, 16, 15, 14, 12. This build is more or less a DEX/INT TWF, thanks to Swashbuckler 3, Factotum 3, and DEX for AC/to hit. I could go elf for that one Corellon or another PrC that gives me DEX to damage, but I have no idea if it stacks with Swashbuckler and I probably don't want to be an elf anyways. |
| #2kurashuAug 06, 2008 1:59:03 | This may be a DM Bookchuck...but, you can't go wrong with Fighter 2/Scout 3/Ranger 13 with swift hunter. |
| #3hsienAug 06, 2008 7:51:03 | Some thoughts: Concur with Scout/Ranger Swift Hunter Although You'd have to check with DM about the level stacking of SH first, as it can be overpowering in Gestalt. I still think it's worthwhile just for the effect it gives to apply Skirmish to Fav Enemies, even if normally immune to Precision Damage. Cloistered Cleric (UA) Knowledge BONUS domain, trade for Knowledge Devotion (CoChamp) Make knowledge checks to get bonuses....hit and damage? I can't recall Travel Domain, either trade in or take feat for Travel Devotion 1/day basically get a move action and still take full attacks, spend TU to get more uses. On of my favorite combo's, party literally killed themselves when they encountered this the first time as they were all max damage focused casters. Take 2 classes that provide evasion, such as Scout and Ranger Use Alt Class feature, CoMage, to trade one evasion for Spell Reflection Equipment: Ring of Entropic Shield 25% miss chance of ranged attacks when you move Panther Mask (MIC) speed bonus Ring/Entropic Shield now gives a 50% miss chance against ranged attacks, because you have speed bonus form another item and you will reflect range spells that miss...basically. |
| #4eldarielAug 06, 2008 11:12:19 | With those stats (did I tell you they are incredible yet?), you could toss Bard to the other side, take Snowflake Wardance (how fitting - Charisma to hit) and get casting while at it (and Inspire Courage for massive bonuses to everything - Dragonfire Inspiration to Silverbrow Human and you just win). It would actually be fairly awesome; you're shooting yourself in the legs if you don't get casting in a level 18 game, especially gestalt. Although if your DM doesn't ok advancing PrC on both sides, you'll be stuck with mere normal Bard-casting instead of Sublime Chord (Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso X would be sweet), which kinda sucks as you still don't have high level magic. The other option is Warblade: 9th level maneuvers would be an incredible boon (you'll get bored just doing the Dervish Dance all the time; maneuvers would add some variety). Heck, Swordsage would work even though the Wisdom-synergies aren't much for you - you get BAB from your primary side, so the lack of BAB is nay problem and you'd get a large variety of maneuvers including Tiger Claw, Desert Wind, Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand. I'd actually consider taking Swift Hunter in the primary side. You basically just need 5 levels for Improved Skirmish which gets you basically all it's worth. Ranger 2 gets you TWF as a bonus and Scout 4 another bonus. Scout 5 would also give you Evasion. I'd ignore Tempest for now and just finish out Scout, Swashbuckler or Fighter on that side instead. Tempest is just numbers - other classes give you so much more. This would open up the second side to either martial adept (Dervish really combines great with high level maneuvers) or Bard. Duskblade would work too, for mass channeling. If you go Adept, take Bloodclaw Master on the higher levels once you've finished Dervish on the other side - that removes your TWF penalties with just two levels. So, to simplify: Scout 5 (or maybe Scout 3/Martial Rogue 2)/Swashbuckler 1/Dervish 10/Swashbuckler 2 // Ranger 2/(Fighter/Martial Rogue 2)/Adept 12-14/Bloodclaw Master 2 - you should take about 10 Adept-levels, then 2 Bloodclaw Masters and continue Adept (since Bloodclaw Master is limited to Tiger Claw, while whichever Adept-class of yours is far more versatile; thus you should take the higher level maneuvers with freedom instead of being stuf with Bloodclaw Master's choices - to make room on the other side, skip Dervish a bit forward, taking the last Swashbuckler-levels at the same time as the Bloodclaw Master-levels) OR Ranger 2/Scout 3/Martial Rogue 2/Dervish 10/Fighter 1 // Bard 18 (or Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 7 if your DM oks dual PrC progression) Remember that Swashbuckler's Int-damage is precision, so Skirmish with Swift Hunter is almost always better. Also, be either Human, Strongheart Halfling or Silverbrow Human; Strongheart Halfling has the strongest Dex-synergies (you probably should go for Shadow Blade) while Silverbrow Human qualifies for Dragonfire Inspiration and normal Human makes better skill monkey. All depends on the exact numbers you want. OR Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish 10/Fighter 2 // Duskblade 18 (just mass channel damage spells FTW - could use ToB instead of Fighter/Swashbuckler, but that would lead to feat trouble) Feats should be: -TWF, ITWF, GTWF (obv; hopefully your DM is reasonable and combines them to 1 feat - that would save you a lot of gray hair as TWF is bad enough without making it eat up most of your feats) -Expeditious Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise (Expeditious Dodge should be always active for you, even during overland travel; +2 AC is just merry) -Weapon Finesse -Combat Reflexes, Double Hit, Robilar's Gambit, Mage Slayer, Stand Still (if you go down that road; if so, make sure you'll get Enlargened on a regular basis) -Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish -IHA, Stormguard Warrior -Deadly Defense, Flay Foe -Elusive Target (if you can convince your DM to let it work with Expeditious Dodge; you qualify for it for sure though) -Adaptive Style (if Swordsage) -Weapon Specialization - Melee Weapon Mastery (if Warblade) -Snowflake Wardance - Song of the Heart - Dragonfire Inspiration - Words of Creation - possibly Song of the White Raven (to activate it as a Swift Action; get some adept-levels to qualify) |
| #5nachtsiegerAug 07, 2008 20:08:40 | What book is Deadly Defense in? Also, thanks to everyone for the helpful advice, especially Eldariel, I think I'm gonna go with a Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish 10/Factotum 3//Duskblade 18, or something like that. I'll probably switch out Factotum (Only reason I'm taking it is for the INT to basically every Str/Dex skill) for something, I haven't figured out yet, or I'll keep it. In fact, I think I'll just replace Swashbuckler for the Scout/Ranger Swift Hunter. Or not... |
| #6ookamikibaAug 07, 2008 20:27:02 | I've always been partial to the Swashbuckler/Rogue combo with Daring Outlaw... Dervish 10 using Thousand Cuts and tumbling around someone is going to get a huge number of attacks and many of them will deny Dex. (Isn't there some class ability/feat that lets you treat someone whose sqaure you just tumbled through as flat-footed?) If you wanted to be really, really mean you could take the other side as Monk 18...Flurry of Blows using a pair of Kamas and Thousand Cuts? That's ten attacks...wait...three for off-hand...16 attacks, I think...that'll leave a mark. All that's missing is Pounce... |
| #7eldarielAug 07, 2008 20:27:22 | Deadly Defense is in Complete Scoundrel. And I definitely suggest Swift Hunter-approach; they don't help your Criticals that much, but as long as you have the feats, you get extra AC basically always and you can choose two critical immunes you can deal the precision damage to. As long as you can make the feats shut up and sit down (by the way, do use Martial Rogue over Fighter! Duskblade already has full BAB, so you lose nothing by taking Martial Rogue and get 8+int skills/level instead of 2). I'd probably ultimately go: Scout 4/Ranger 2/Martial Rogue 2/Dervish 10//Duskblade 18 This gets you 4 bonus feats (you're a Human of course - two of those feats will be Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish; rest is basically qualifications and utility), full Dervish-progression and nice Duskblade casting to channel into every attack you make. Feats could fall something like: 1st. Expeditious Dodge+Combat Expertise 3rd. Weapon Finesse 4th. Mobility (Scout bonus) 6th. Two-Weapon Fighting (Ranger bonus), Swift Hunter 7th. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (Rogue bonus) 8th. Weapon Focus (Scimitar) (Rogue bonus) 9th. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting 12th. Arcane Strike 15th. Elusive Target 18th. Improved Skirmish Or something along those lines. If your DM is reasonable and combines TWF-feats in one, you could also fit Combat Reflexes/Robilar's Gambit, Improved Trip/Whatever, or similar feats. Your damage should be respectable though. To finish the character off, you'll probably want either two levels in an Adept-class or two levels of Fighter. Adept-class could give you stuff like Thicket of Blades or similar, while Fighter would get you plain two more feats. Your Duskblade-side could either be straight Duskblade, or Duskblade 15/Abjurant Champion 5 (you qualify, and with some level-mixing, you'll be able to take 3 levels of Abjurant Champion in lieu of Dervish-levels, by taking the 4th Scout-level and the 2 Martial Rogue-levels at later points). If you have difficulty working the feats out, here're ones you could take at any point of the progression: Scout: Improved Skirmish Martial Rogue: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting So displace those levels and you'll be fine. |
| #8eldarielAug 07, 2008 20:34:55 | Happens to the best of us. |
| #9eldarielAug 07, 2008 20:34:35 | Unfortunately. |
| #10firedrakekAug 07, 2008 21:52:37 | i dono i'd just go full sword sage on teh other side. or warblade if you want the specific schools but you can pick those up with feats. |
| #11kurashuAug 07, 2008 21:57:03 | Wow, triple post. Also, TWF chain into ONE feat? That'd allow three extra attacks with one feat. Hardly reasonable. Reasonable is letting battle blessing apply to pious templar/blackguard. |
| #12eldarielAug 07, 2008 22:18:45 | Kurashu: 3 attacks that do less than half the normal damage, with your primary attacks' damage halved too. Without investing a feat, the guy using a Two-Handed Weapon is still doing more average damage. How's that not messed up? Here is a small list of problems with Two-Weapon Fighting: -Costs a feat to do with any reasonable chance of success (I don't consider -4/-10 a reasonable chance of hitting an opponent) -Notable penalties (-2 (that is, -10%) to hit on every attack) to hit even with a feat. -Inability to use the primary source of melee damage in the game (Power Attack) without even more feats (Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting). -The same base weapon damage output without extra penalties, or using two different weapons making the effective use of weapon specifics impossible (2xLight Weapon, both hitting, deals the same damage as a single Two-Handed Weapon (compare Short Swords to Greatsword; two Short Swords deal 2d6, Greatsword 2d6, otherwise they're identical)) -Multi-Attribute Dependancy without even more feats (you need Dex 19 to finish the Two-Weapon Fighting chain and your attacks are derived off Str, so without two 17s at least, and a race with Str and Dex-boost, you'll be stuck spreading your level boosts to Dex and Str) -Inability to actually do even a normal Standard Action's worth of attacks after moving before the levels where you'd normally even need Pounce without even more feats. -Even after spending three feats, you'll never get the effective of 4 iteratives (because one hit from a two-handed weapon deals the same damage as a hit from a one-handed weapon + a light weapon, Two-Handed Fighter gets 4 iteratives at BAB +16, while Two-Weapon Fighter gets the effective or mere 3.5 as he'll never get a 4th attack with the second weapon) -Double the price for buying magic weapons (or well, having to buy two instead of one). Can you please tell me how getting all those problems is worth 3 feats? Instead, you could just not invest a feat, fight Two-Handed (picking Power Attack of course) and avoid them all. How do you rationally defend having Two-Weapon Fight cost a feat when it's worse in almost every way imaginable without going to extreme lengths and taking a ton of other feats and actual class levels to mitigate the problems? What part of not making a player pay 3 feats to get all those problems is not reasonable? |
| #13kurashuAug 07, 2008 23:23:03 | TWF is great for sneak attack/skirmish. Extra dice stack up over stuff like 1.5xSTR + 2-for-1 PA. Assuming 15 BAB and +10d6 SA (which is about a third of what is capable) with TWF, ITWF and GTWF. Attacks at 13/13/8/8/3/3. That's six attacks with an average of 35 added on. 35 times 6 equals out to 210. Now, maxing sneak attack out to +33d6+20 isn't hard. That's 135 added on to each attack. That's an extra 810 damage (assuming 15 BAB) right there. Before weapon damage, strength and what ever other attributes you can add on are applied. That's an average of 810 damage regardless of if you're tiny or huge. That'll put the hurt on anything. As for the lack of 2-for-1 PA and 1.5xSTR, I can live with it. And with the little bonuses to hit, there are ways to overcome it. Wraithstrike, true strike, greater invisibility, et cetera. If you're going for a bigstick type guy, yes Power Attack is better. But if you're a bigstick type guy, you probably didn't consider rogue in the first place. |
| #14eldarielAug 07, 2008 23:41:04 | TWF is great for sneak attack/skirmish. Extra dice stack up over stuff like 1.5xSTR + 2-for-1 PA. Yes, yes, TWF does work for characters with lots of sources of extra damage. That means you've spent basically all your levels towards the goal though, so it's definitely ok for a feat to actually make those levels worth your while. Having to spend 3 feats to make those levels worth your while is still retarded. And that's pretty much a sole character archetype where TWF is even takeable, and it's still behind a Charger in damage (and that's before addressing the issues of triggering Sneak Attack and hitting with them all - no, Wraithstrike isn't generally available as an item that would really be usable, True Strike only applies to a single attack and Greater Invisibility is completely trivial on higher levels). Nothing would be broken by making TWF one feat - it would only make TWFers a bit less featstarved. They'd still be behind THFers, but at least a bit less, and characters like Two-Weapon Controllers would actually be doable instead of falling to the feat-cost overload. Also, Rogues could actually pick up useful feats instead of having to burn all theirs on TWF-tree, which would also be "good" in my book, not "OMG THE WORLD IS FALLING!!!!1111". Seriously, even if we build a Charger to actually deal damage, all we need is Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper and Leap Attack. To reach similar results, a TWFer needs to be able to fulfill certain circumstances and take ~20 class levels. What part of that is fair? |
| #15tshernAug 08, 2008 3:53:49 | Though taking TWF and then grabbing Gloves of the Balanced hand nets you ITWF. I suppose you can live without the last attack or just use the item to qualify for GTWF... |
| #16hsienAug 08, 2008 7:07:42 | Not that familiar with it but ToB, Swordsage Desert Wind style mixes well with Dervish, iirc. Scimitar is one of their style weapons and there are some interesting movement based manuevers/stances. |
| #17firedrakekAug 08, 2008 15:35:48 | Not that familiar with it but ToB, Swordsage Desert Wind style mixes well with Dervish, iirc. shadow hand aswell as does some tiger's claw and a few diamond mind. really i recommend Swordsage. bonus on initiative, maneuvers... there is even a variant that let's you take spells as maneuvers, talk your GM into haste and your golden. |
| #18eldarielAug 08, 2008 18:55:00 | Don't forget though, Duskblade gets a 13th level ability to Full Attack Channel. That means adding spell damage to every attack you make; combine that with One Thousand Cuts for incredible pain. The combination of Full Attack Channel/Dervish (something you can't pull off in normal game and that kicks royal butt) is the primary reason I suggested it in the first place. Oh yeah, and Arcane Strike + Dervish with spell levels to burn is INSANE. You're looking at something like: 1d6+Dervish Dance+Str+4d6 Skirmish+5d4 Arcane Strike+5d6 Spell (with +5 to hit) damage for every hit. And that's without using your free Quicken to cast a boost spell - just Arcane Channel + Arcane Strike + Improved Skirmish Full Attack If you can find ways to add some more efficient damage spells to the mix, all the better (e.g. Vampiric Touch - 10d6 damage to each attack, and gain temporary hitpoints equal to half damage dealt). Stuff you could use to gain the extra spells include Arcane Disciple (with Wisdom to match), Sand Shaper and a variety of other PrCs, along with potentially some lineage feats. |
| #19ookamikibaAug 08, 2008 19:53:17 | I'm partial to using a reach weapon and the Cleave chain to cause serious problems for multiple enimies. The thing that should be remembered about a reach weapon is that you can Dervish Dance around someone without ever moving backwards, ever entering a threatened square and always moving five feet...a glaive works fine for this purpose, being both slashing and reach. Ftr 2/Human Paragon 1/Rogue 15//Swashbuckler 6/Dervish 10/Swash Buckler +2 Daring Outlaw...sneak attack as a 23rd level Rogue. Or... for only one side: Ftr 2/Human Paragon 1/Rogue 3/Feat Rogue 12 The thing about this is, with Daring Outlaw...your Feat Rogue levels provide Sneak Attack damage. This gives you 18th level Sneak Attack to go along with your Dervish Dancing. Or you could just go: Ftr 2/Monk 16 Dual wield kamas for effect and enjoy an obscene number of attacks with Thousand Cuts (though I still like using the builds where you can use a reach weapon to avoid ever entering a Medium-sized opponent's threatened square) |
| #20eldarielAug 08, 2008 20:11:04 | If you want to use Cleave, Dual Wielding only really offers you one option (which kicks ass) - Kusari-Gama [DMG Pg. 144]. A Light Reach Weapon, which allows tripping and can be used against adjacent too. Exotic Weapon, but definitely worth it. Not much of a Crit-weapon though, so kiss the usual Crit Hound Dervish bye-bye if going for it. Still, if I wanted to Cleave people to death, it would be my weapon of choice (imagine all the extra attacks people falling from the channels would cause - get Enlarged and things get really awesome; Kusari-Gama is even a Light Weapon). |
| #21ookamikibaAug 08, 2008 20:39:45 | If you want to use Cleave, Dual Wielding only really offers you one option (which kicks ass) - Kusari-Gama [DMG Pg. 144]. A Light Reach Weapon, which allows tripping and can be used against adjacent too. Exotic Weapon, but definitely worth it. Not much of a Crit-weapon though, so kiss the usual Crit Hound Dervish bye-bye if going for it. Still, if I wanted to Cleave people to death, it would be my weapon of choice (imagine all the extra attacks people falling from the channels would cause - get Enlarged and things get really awesome; Kusari-Gama is even a Light Weapon). Nice. I lean towards the straight forwards glaive and just power attack the heck out of the target... Either way, though, anything that happens to cross this Dervish is going to find a whirlwind of blades dancing around it without entering a threatened square. Reach is awesome! Plus, the Dervish can move between Cleaves:D |