1st round dagger kill

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

skyknightj

Apr 20, 2009 14:07:34
What are the absolute best pieces of equipment to buy in order to:

1. Win initiative on the 1st round and catch the enemy flat-footed.
2. Have the good luck of being situated within 30 feet (sneak attack).
3. Throw a ridiculous number of daggers at one enemy, killing them.
4. Grin at the DM as he realizes you just one rounded his villain.

The character in question would be level 20 (with the expected character wealth of 760,000gp), BAB of 17, have Greater two-weapon fighting, Palm Throw, Insightful strike, and sneak attack 8d6 at the very least.

I think most of the money should go into the weapons. Depending on which of my ideas below stack, I would be throwing 28 daggers minimum, probably more. None of them need to be returning since I can retrieve them from the villain's body (they are going to die before teleporting anywhere). Adding enhancements such as Flaming is straightforward, but I prefer Spell Storing and having a level 20 druid friend who is willing to cast Poison a bunch of times. I'm not really sure what weapon additions are the most damaging. The meteoric knife is nice, since you get a flaming, returning, fireball-causing throw 1/day for under 3000gp per dagger.

Only one dagger needs to have the Warning ability for a nice +5 to initiative if I start combat with it in my hand. Gloves of Dex help too of course.

The belt of battle is awesome... an extra full round action 1/day! But I don't know whether this effect stacks with haste or not. Technically it doesn't give you an extra attack, it gives you an extra full-round action. So it's like having two turns.

In a related idea, the Bracers of the Blinding Strike (magic of faerun) in addition to giving you +6 armor and Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, they add an extra attack when you full attack. Does this stack with the belt of battle? If so then we're getting into an obscene number of daggers. Granted I think this item is 3.0 so might be considered unbalanced for 3.5 play, what do you guys think?

I can depend on you guys to make it a truly memorable experience for the unfortunate pincushion.
#2

phaedrusxy

Apr 20, 2009 14:17:23
I think there is a feat that lets you treat daggers as monk weapons (in an Eberron book). That and Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5 gets you two extra attacks at full BAB. Then add GTWF, Rapid Shot, Haste, and Palm Throw with +16 BAB for... 22 attacks in a full attack, without going totally crazy with multi-armed races, etc.

Get a wand chamber and a wand of nerveskitter for +5 to Initiative, and another wand of Sign (cleric spell, SC) for +4 more.

Alternatively, you could go with a psionic-based build and the Tashalatora feat for Greater Flurry and +16 BAB (using Warmind or Slayer). Ardent 3/Monk 2/Slayer 10/Master Thrower 5 with Practiced Manifester (Ardent) would have BAB +18 and 9th level Psionic Powers, and all of the above.


I guess you're mainly looking for equipment suggestions, eh? :P It's going to be prohibitively expensive to enchant that many daggers. I'd suggest just using normal ones, and getting the party casters to slap a (Chained) Greater Magic Weapon, Weapon of Energy, and other weapon enhancing spells on them. See if you can use "throwing daggers", and count them as ammunition so you can hit 50 at once per spell. I seem to remember actual stats for those somewhere, but I forget where...
#3

bitznarf

Apr 20, 2009 14:34:56
You'll want an eager weapon as well. You'll also need to keep an eye on which extra attack abilities stack. Several of them don't stack with Rapid Shot etc. if I recall correctly.
#4

pithica

Apr 20, 2009 15:20:17
It's not as good as Phaedrus's Monk/Shou disciple fury above, but I built a...

Rogue 3/Swashie 7/Invisible Blade 5/Master Thrower 5

...and it felt pretty solid as an NPC. It worked really well as a glass cannon.
#5

gorfnad_the_shiznit

Apr 20, 2009 21:30:23
From another thread I posted to

This is a very simple yet usually effective dagger build
Human
1. Rogue - Craven, Point Blank Shot
2. Rogue
3. Rogue - Precise Shot
4. Swashbuckler -B: Weapon Finesse
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Two Weapon Fighting
7. Fighter - B: Weapon Focus: Dagger
8. Fighter - B: Far Shot
9. Fighter - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Fighter - B: Weapon Specialization Dagger
11. Invisible Blade
12. Invisible Blade - Combat Reflexes
13. Invisible Blade
14. Invisible Blade
15. Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
17. Master Thrower
18. Master Thrower - Rapid Shot
19. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
20. Master Thrower
16 daggers thrown a round or 7 melee attacks with daggers a round, 5d6 +20 sneak attack damage, BAB 19
Flaws will get you Darkstalker and Twin Sword Style at 1st level. Trade Trap Sense for Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape.

Other more complicated builds:
Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Monk 2/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 5/ Warblade 2
Rogue 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Monk 2/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 2/ Warblade 6
Rogue 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Monk 2/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 2/ Warblade 1/ Bloodclaw Master 5
Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 4/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 5
Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Monk 2/ Master Thrower 2/ Fixed Invisible Blade (by original author/creator) 10
Rogue 3/ Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master Thrower 2/ Invisible Blade 5/ Whisper Knife 5 (for halflings only)
Rogue 3/ Monk 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 2/ Duelist 5 (Int to AC x3!)
Any of the builds with Monk use either Carmendine Monk or Kung-Fu Genius for Int to AC instead of Wis. All of these builds will throw 16 daggers a round.

Gear of note:
Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM)
Rogue's Vest (MIC)
Gauntlet of Infinite Blades (MIC)

Also here is a thread with some nice dagger builds:
Machine Gun Rogue

Also you could very easily turn this into a Bandoleer of Infinite Daggers by replacing the words arrow(s) with dagger(s) and quiver(s) with bandoleer(s).
Taken from The Lone Drow: Companions of the Hall

Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver.

Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes.

Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb.

#6

Balthanon

Apr 20, 2009 23:30:28
Rogue 7/Warblade 2/Fighter 2/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 3/Bloodclaw Master 2 might work as well, eliminating the need for carrying around a metric ton of daggers.

That should pick up 4d6 sneak attack through Rogue levels, 2d6 more through Martial Study (Assassin's Stance), 17 base attack bonus, no two-weapon fighting penalties, full Str attack on off-hand attacks (not an issue when using palm shot), master thrower tricks, and a total of 6 + 2 + 2 + 1 = 11 attacks base (w/haste). So 22 with palm throw-- equivalent to the monk build, though this one loses two attacks every other round while recovering maneuvers. On the other hand, it does pick up Lightning Ricochet so you can use two full enchanted daggers for your attack routine.

The final total should be something like +16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1 before Dex and enhancement bonuses with each attack doing 1d3 + 6d6 + 20 + Dex.

Adding Daring Outlaw into the mix would require sacrificing either Craven or Shadow Blade, though it would bump up BAB slightly. Probably Shadow Blade actually, since that is melee only now that I look at it. Or alternatively, getting rid of Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and using Gloves of the Balanced Hand for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. That would free up two feats and also allow you to pick up Shadow Stride for a 50 foot move action teleport.

Dagger Thrower Build
Class Build:<br /> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> Level | Class | Feats/Abilities | BAB | HP<br /> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> Level 1: Rogue Point Blank Shot, Craven<br /> Level 2: Rogue <br /> Level 3: Rogue Two-Weapon Fighting<br /> Level 4: Rogue <br /> Level 5: Warblade (3) <br /> Level 6: B. Blade Martial Study (Cloak of Deception)<br /> Level 7: B. Blade <br /> Level 8: B. Blade [Precise Shot]<br /> Level 9: B. Blade (5) Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)<br /> Level 10: Rogue <br /> Level 11: Rogue <br /> Level 12: Rogue Weapon Focus (dagger)<br /> Level 13: Master Thrower [Quick Draw]<br /> Level 14: Master Thrower <br /> Level 15: Master Thrower Improved Two-Weapon Fighting<br /> Level 16: Warblade (9) <br /> Level 17: Fighter [Greater Two-Weapon Fighting]<br /> Level 18: Fighter Shadow Blade, [Rapid Shot]<br /> Level 19: B. Master (11) <br /> Level 20: B. Master <br /> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> Alt 19: Warblade (11) <br /> Alt 20: Warblade<br /> <br /> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#7

sofawall

Apr 20, 2009 23:33:26
Well, for any "massive damage in one round" character, I'm a fan of the Factotum. Iaijutsu Focus, emulate Sneak Attack and extra standard actions. Not optimized, but useful outside of combat/for more than first round.

Maybe throw in Whisper Gnome/Collar of Umbral, sneak around a lot for flat-footed... Yeah. I'm actually playing one of those right now :D

And aren't there daggers that add 2d6 sneak attack?

That is, if you want to spend mad cash on them.
#8

hsien

Apr 21, 2009 7:40:35
Sidenote:
Palm Throw (Master thrower trick) only applies Sneak dice to one of thrown weapons. Per errata, it is a volley similar to manyshot.

I also like MT trick, Deadly Precision, iirc, increases Crit Mutiplier by +1
So daggers are x3 on crit.
#9

Senevri

Apr 21, 2009 9:39:11
One trick pony?
Try this:
TWF,
Rapid Shot,
Haste,
Belt of Battle.
At least 8 spell-storing daggers,
CL 11.

Store Scorching Ray spells in the daggers,
96d6 fire+8d4+normal damage.

Now, there are many ways to tweak this further:
- combust has better bang for the buck,
- actually possessing Sneak Attack helps. About 5d6 or something should do.
- Metamagick'd spell still counts as a spell of it's original level, so twin emp combust.
#10

true_shinken

Apr 21, 2009 10:59:06
Organrippers FTW
#11

skyknightj

Apr 22, 2009 11:50:45
Thanks for the input guys.

Gorfnad, that is pretty much the build I was thinking of except replace the fighter levels with rogue as I am also trying to be the party's skill monkey.

It seems like a combination of Haste, Belt of Battle, and spell storing daggers will make for the most damage. By my math we're looking at damage that exceeds 1000 in a single round. Most humanoid targets can't survive that kind of assault, and even undead/constructs with immunity to sneak attack and insightful strike are going to be hurting. The DM would try to counter this kind of build with a creature that has 10+ DR (it applies to each dagger unfortunately) and immune to crits/fire etc. Also remember the individual dagger has to do at least 1 point after DR to trigger its spell. So this kind of attack will be foiled sometimes.

Senevri, scorching ray seems like a good option for a stored spell, but I'm not sure it's allowed. The RAW state: "A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon." For spells that have a touch attack, this is no problem. But what about rays? Would I then have to make a ranged/melee touch attack for each ray that shoots from the dagger... even though I just stabbed them with it? Or would most people rule that each ray from the spell automatically hits? If my dagger attack is a crit, does that make each of the rays a crit? Something about this seems wrong. Plus all the examples for stored spells in the DMG are touch spells. However you point out the "Combust" spell from the spell compendium, which is a 1d8/level fire touch attack. That seems pretty wicked, if I can persuade the evoker in my party to learn it. Another problem with *throwing* a spell storing dagger is that the spell storing enhancement is only available for melee weapons, so I'm not sure if the designers intended the ability to be used at range. The RAW says you can choose to activate, or not activate, the stored spell as a free action on any hit. But if I'm no longer physically holding the dagger, how can I trigger the spell at all? Is this just a mental command? I just don't want to be perceived as breaking any rules written or implied. What say you rules lawyers?
#12

dr_rocktopus

Apr 22, 2009 13:27:18
I'm not a rules-lawyer, I'm a rules-samurai!

Forgive me if I draw and strike, but RAI it is intended to work.
#13

sofawall

Apr 22, 2009 15:07:20
Factotum gets, what, 10 inspiration points? Spend all your feats on Font of Inspiration (7 HD + 2 flaws + 1 Human) gives 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+10 Insiration points, or 65 inspiration points. That's 65d6 on one attack per encounter.

Even better though, in my opinion, is this: 8 Factotum/8 Iaijutsu Master/4 Fighter. You need at least 30 Int (for Font of Inspiration) (18+5 Tome+6 Item+1 HD) and you get 60 Inspiration points, or 20 extra standard actions per encounter. Assuming you have a 32 Cha (17+5 Tome+6 Item+4 HD), tough with a 32 point buy (leaves almost no points for dex or con) and Skill Focus for your bonus feat, you can get:

Each standard action gives: (1d10 Katana+6d6 Iaijutsu Focus+66)*2 for One Strike, Two Cuts, and that's on a roll of 1 for your Iaijutsu Focus. Burn all Inspiration points and assume average rolls, (and keep Quick Drawing and dropping katanas) you'll do 42d10+252d6+2772, or average of 3885+63*Str Mod (using katana two handed).

Oh, and all that's assuming you get a surprise round, so point some points in Hide/Move Silently, pick up a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis for HiPS and more sneaky mods, you'll kill stuff dead. Even so, however, your initiative will be Dex+Int+Cha+4, so you should go first anyway.

Oh, the only thing is, you won't be using daggers. :D


EDIT: Fighter instead of rogue means we lose 4d6 sneak attack, but frees up the HD feats for more Fonts of Inspiration. MOAR DAMAGE! (New damage total added up. Almost 1000 higher :D)
#14

grayman19

Apr 22, 2009 19:12:05
Do I smell calamari?
Really, the anthropomorphic squid is the king of throwing builds. Look him up
#15

dr_rocktopus

Apr 22, 2009 19:21:13
No. Just...

Look, squidmen are all fine and good, but will you be the one to walk him? Will you remember to feed him? A squidman is a big responsibility!

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