Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 charisma_is_forbards May 05, 2008 13:37:36	Ok this will be the first time playing a cleric my rolls are 13, 15, 15, 14, 14, 10. Also we are starting at 1st level. I need to find min/max, make the best out of what i can do with this cleric. recommended domains, spells, races(no LA adjustments allowed)equipment when starting and equipment for higher levels, feats, skills to take and not to take, everything that could help out. I need to make this guy a bad ass with all the help that you guys do on these boards I know you will be able to help me accomplish this task. If its any help on other knowledge needed for this character is that we are running the Undermountain super campaign and anything that would help my cleric complete this would be a big help. Looking for all recommendations that would help this first time cleric player become awesome.
#2 Wyvernhand May 05, 2008 14:11:38	What do you want your cleric to do? Do you want to be more of a melee beatstick of a cleric? Thats easy to do with Divine Metamagic: Persist and a handful of cleric only buffs such as Divine Power and Righeous Might. This build is kind of pigeonholed into the role because of the intense feat requirement. My personal favorite cleric is more of a healer/buffer/controller. Take feats and domains that augement your casting, like Divine Spell Power or the Purification or Inquisition Domains. Use spells like Battlemagic Perception in conjuntion with tweaked CL Dispel Magics for reactive counterspelling. Use party buffs such as Recitation and Righeous Wrath of the Faithful to empower your party. Cast all day buffs like Magic Vestiments and Greater Magic Weapon using various CL shananagans to augement your party beyond standard levels. Spend your rounds in combat controling the battlefield with spells like Wall of Stone or curing status ailements with Ruby Ray of Reversal, Heal, or pop off some augemented Mass Cure Light Wounds to recover from a big AoE like a dragon breath. This, I believe, is a far more powerful cleric than the typical DMM:Persist one trick pony cleric. YMMV.
#3 bhale187 May 05, 2008 14:18:21	As Wyvernhand said it depends alot on what role you plan to play in the campaign. Regardless of the path you chose I'd stick one of those 15s in WIS, that will assure you can cast every spell level as it comes to you without depending on magic to keep your WIS up. For starting equipment I'd suggest the heaviest armor you can afford. As you gain wealth invest in pearls of power, these are some of the best money you can spend as a cleric. here's some good info on clerics also cleric handbook
#4 warningfire May 05, 2008 14:24:28	Clerics are pretty good for melee. With exotic weapon proficiency (Jovar). you can be a pretty good melee damage guy and healer. make sure you carry a crossbow around too... ranged spells are very limited for clerics and yeah you tend to heal people alot depleting your spells. Get a wand of cure light wounds when you can. People pretty much rely on you to fix them. I'm a after combat healer kind of guy and it annoys paladins sometimes but that's ok.
#5 charisma_is_forbards May 05, 2008 14:30:29	It looks like i may be doing quite a bit of healing with group i'm in but i will have my fair share of meleeing to do to. Are group consists of two bards a spellscale sorceror, dwarf ranger, myself and then the last member hasn't picked what he is playing yet. Also what does CL stand for and could you possibly reference books that some of these feats, spells and domains are from.
#6 bhale187 May 05, 2008 14:36:42	CL is caster level most of the domains and divine feats are in Complete Divine If you are iterested in being a combat medic type take a look at the Radiant Servant from Complete Divine also.
#7 warningfire May 05, 2008 14:36:43	Spells you always want to have around: hold person, flamestrike, divine power, righteous might, heal, searing light, mass heal. sanctuary helps you run past enemies to get to your dieing buddy. Also wall of stone helps too. cleric 20 and PHB spells and feats only is still pretty powerful. I mean you will rarely find yourself useless. People tend to need healing, stuff can be hit with whatever weapon you choose, yeah you have some ranged spells to fight back against a pesky ranger shooting you from afar, you can always wind walk away from a fight, or bust out a wall. Turn undead is a moot point. most my clerics have a low charisma unless I want to abuse the complete divine persistent metamagic.
#8 Wyvernhand May 05, 2008 15:06:12	Spells you always want to have around: hold person, flamestrike, divine power, righteous might, heal, searing light, mass heal. sanctuary helps you run past enemies to get to your dieing buddy. Also wall of stone helps too. cleric 20 and PHB spells and feats only is still pretty powerful. I mean you will rarely find yourself useless. People tend to need healing, stuff can be hit with whatever weapon you choose, yeah you have some ranged spells to fight back against a pesky ranger shooting you from afar, you can always wind walk away from a fight, or bust out a wall. Turn undead is a moot point. most my clerics have a low charisma unless I want to abuse the complete divine persistent metamagic. Seriously dude, if you try to do too much as a cleric, you'll find you won't be able to do anything. Your blasts will be less effective because a) they are ineffective and b) you don't have the metamagic to support. You won't melee very well because you'll have to take a bunch of rounds to build your "zilla" up by casting your standard buffs because they aren't persistant. You won't be able to heal as well because you'll have burned most of your spells off trying to either blast or buff for melee and now 3 combats deep in the day you are completely out of spell even to convert to healing. Seriously. Pick a focus, and do it well. Some things synergize well with different focuses. If you really want to melee, look into the the Ordained Champion PrC from Complete Champion. Also, you'll want DMM:Persist and all of its associated feats in order to perform up to the level that a straight class fighter would. If you'd rather blast....roll a sorcerer. If you'd rather play what would be primarily a support/control role similar to a "Batman" or "god" style wizard, cleric is great for it. Also, don't knock turning. It doesn't take that much gear to keep your turning way above your level. If you encounter undead, its so nice to be able to just wave a hand and say NEXT, than it is to sit and dink around with a spring attacking dread wraiths for 3-4 hours of real gaming time. Picking up the spell Turn Anathema from Complete Champion also gives you the wonderful ability to turn creatures with a subtype opposite your alignment. That means that a good cleric could turn evil outsider, an unresistable fear effect that allows your party to completely maul the helpless beasty while your sit back and laugh.
#9 sinfire_titan May 05, 2008 15:18:27	Are Unearthed Arcana and Tome of Battle allowed? If yes, then I may have a very potent build for you. If UA is allowed, then why play a Cleric for Undermountain (which I've read through a few times)? It may be powerful, but in the end you will want a melee character off the bat with spellcasting classes at the end of the road. The following build is if UA is allowed: Human Paladin of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 4 (PH2 variant, or keep your familiar and have it be a second Tank)/Ur-Priest 7/Contemplative 1/War-Priest 1/Ordained Champion 5 Books Needed: PHB, PH2, Complete Divine, Warrior, and Champion, Unearthed Arcana. Recomend you pick up Elder Evils to aleviate feat requirements. No XP penalties, massive amounts of debuffing, 3 domains, 9th level spells, SR 15 (or is it 20?) against Divine spells, Rebuke Undead, and other goodies. Put your two 15s in Wis and Cha. The 14s in Str and Con. 10 Dex and 13 Int, and you are set for life.
#10 reis May 05, 2008 15:29:15	other good builds for a melee cleric are Cleric/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator (tome of battle) or the ever popular cleric/fist of raziel (book of exalted deeds) if you want to be a healer and support/control caster then Radiant Servant is a pretty good way to go as others have stated
#11 Wyvernhand May 05, 2008 15:35:29	Human Paladin of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 4 (PH2 variant, or keep your familiar and have it be a second Tank)/Ur-Priest 7/Contemplative 1/War-Priest 1/Ordained Champion 5 You're also an evil bastard and all the gods hate you. Can you really take Contemplative to go with UrPriest? Or Ordained Champ for that matter? Stealing magic from the gods isn't a good way to make peaceful contact with them or to become the blessed champion of them. In fact, its a good way to make hostile contact...and get you kicked out of every church in the world, evil or not.....
#12 charisma_is_forbards May 05, 2008 15:39:52	Another question i don't have the book in front of me. Where does it say how many spells that a cleric can pray for. I know where it says how many they can cast a day where does it say the number of them that you can pick to have along for the adventure. I am rather noobish on that part of d&d.
#13 phaedrusxy May 05, 2008 15:43:58	Two bards? Why? Why in god's name? One bard is good, especially in large-ish party. Two bards is redundant. I'd suggest your party pools its resources and buys a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, and maybe a Wand of Vigor, ASAP. The bard(s) can use the CLW wand. Vigor is in the Spell Compendium and Complete Divine, I think. I'd focus on building your character for melee, and using the Wand of Vigor for out of combat healing. Although starting out, I'd use a ranged weapon as much as possible. 1st level characters are too fragile to risk danger unnecessarily. Playing at 1st level is vastly different than playing at later levels. The main thing you want to do at 1st level is just survive. Hunting dogs are cheap. I'd suggest your party buys a few, and lets them kill stuff and get killed (instead of you) for the first level, while you sit back and fire ranged weapons and/or spells. A mount is also fantastic, but you probably won't be able to afford one starting out, and unless you're a short race, you probably won't be able to take them into the dungeon with you, anyway. You might consider playing a whisper gnome or something, though. Use a shield, and the best armor you can afford. See if you can craft them yourself for 1/2 cost, to spread your starting money thinner. Even with no ranks, you can probably make the craft DCs to make this kind of stuff. The Guideance spell can add +1 to the check, and I think there might be another 1st level cleric spell than can help. By the time you can cast 2nd level cleric spells, skill checks won't be a problem. There are some crazy good skill boosting spells available then. Divine Insight in the Spell Compendium is one that springs to mind. There is also an insane one in one of the web articles that gives +20 or something.
#14 warningfire May 05, 2008 15:45:07	Seriously dude, if you try to do too much as a cleric, you'll find you won't be able to do anything. Your blasts will be less effective because a) they are ineffective and b) you don't have the metamagic to support. You won't melee very well because you'll have to take a bunch of rounds to build your "zilla" up by casting your standard buffs because they aren't persistant. You won't be able to heal as well because you'll have burned most of your spells off trying to either blast or buff for melee and now 3 combats deep in the day you are completely out of spell even to convert to healing. Seriously. Pick a focus, and do it well. Some things synergize well with different focuses. If you really want to melee, look into the the Ordained Champion PrC from Complete Champion. Also, you'll want DMMersist and all of its associated feats in order to perform up to the level that a straight class fighter would. If you'd rather blast....roll a sorcerer. If you'd rather play what would be primarily a support/control role similar to a "Batman" or "god" style wizard, cleric is great for it. 1) Not everyone abuses divine metamagic persistent spell. Some people rule you can't cast a spell above 9th level so persistent divine power is effectively a 10th level spell. I believe there is a 9 page thread about the rules. Not everyone can agree. 2) it takes 2 spells divine power and/or righteous might. wam bam thank you maam you're ready for melee. so you take one or two rounds to prepare. that's what makes you not a fighter. If the fight ends before you engaged well you grossly overestimated your enemy. 3) You don't need metamagic feats or any complete series books to be a good spell caster. Not everyone has access or uses these books. Besides I can't think of many cleric spells I'd like to maximize or empower... I'd just end up worse then a wizard anyway, but that's the tradeoff I get for a bigger HD and BA. 4) it's his first cleric keeping options open is never bad. Clerics are good in alot of situations. If your party is full of paladins and no wizard you probably want to plan a flame strike somewhere along the line. Turn undead is still awesome without a charisma bonus or any feats most people don't run into undead every encounter unless it's an undead campaign. Granted anything that once lived can be undead, but really if your quest from level 1-20 how often will you make use of better turning? ~ feats get a weapon proficiency feat (exotic or martial). Preferably a 2 hander slashing weapon since you already can use bludgeoning and piercing 1 handers and 2 handers. Complete Warrior has improved toughness (you get 1 hp for every level you have) - good at higher levels. I like spontaneous metamagic feats (complete arcane), healing touch (complete divine). If you're evil or nuetral and you rebuke undead... might look into libris mortis or vile for feats. skills concentration spellcraft is good knowledge (religion) is good knowledge (planar) is good if you plan to leave the material plane.
#15 sinfire_titan May 05, 2008 15:45:57	You're also an evil bastard and all the gods hate you. Can you really take Contemplative to go with UrPriest? Or Ordained Champ for that matter? Stealing magic from the gods isn't a good way to make peaceful contact with them or to become the blessed champion of them. In fact, its a good way to make hostile contact...and get you kicked out of every church in the world, evil or not..... Yes, actually. Who says you are stealing from Hextor? You could be stealing from his half-brother. He'd be fine with that. Another question i don't have the book in front of me. Where does it say how many spells that a cleric can pray for. I know where it says how many they can cast a day where does it say the number of them that you can pick to have along for the adventure. I am rather noobish on that part of d&d. You don't have a list of spells known as a Cleric. Effectively, every Cleric spell in existance is one you know, and you can prepare as many or as few as you want (provided you don't exceed your Spells/Day that is).
#16 sinfire_titan May 05, 2008 15:48:00	Two bards? Why? Why in god's name? One bard is good, especially in large-ish party. Two bards is redundant. One for buffing Attack rolls with Inspire Courage. The other one is either a Bard of Death and pumps damage, or an Ultimate Magus combo. Or something like that.
#17 warningfire May 05, 2008 16:24:19	Are group consists of two bards a spellscale sorceror, dwarf ranger, myself and then the last member hasn't picked what he is playing Dwarf cleric of Kord can be kind of fun. It's my longest living character and he started out from level 1 with 3.5 PHB only (nothing was released at the time 3.5 wise). domains luck and strength. So my feats are old school PHB only but yeah WP (Greatsword) - level 1 WF(greatsword) - level 3 Improved toughness - level 6 (complete warrior was one of the first supplements released) Craft Magic Arms And Armor - 9 improved critical (greatsword) - 12 power attack - 15 cleave - 18 my char lived to see 18 and isn't dead yet. Was a rough ride seen barbarians die, paladins die, monks die, and a wizards die. I had crazy stats though at level 1 after dwarf racial I had 18 str, 20 con, 16 dex, 17 wis, 10 int, 8 cha. Every 4 levels I added 1 point to wisdom. I tell you massive hp + heal is the easiest way to not die. At level one I had a crossbow and a greatsword fun times. Later on when I got hold person, searing light, and flame strike... I let go of that crossbow and only regreted it one time... lucky for me the flying harpy only carried 160 cold arrows. Mislead is a life savor. all I know is you need alot of constitution to play a tanking cleric. Helps concentration checks too.
#18 Wyvernhand May 05, 2008 16:28:17	warningfire, you just made my point. All of them. a) I don't like DMM Persist. I don't like Persist period. I do acknowledge that it is the main driver behind the whole CoDzilla idea though. Without it, melee clerics are rather pitiful, IMO. b) How many Divine Powers and Righteous Mights do you keep prepped? In the 2 rounds you spend buffing, I know a handful of fighter mutt builds that can do enough damage to kill off 2-3 things already by the time you've buffed. And that's without Leap Attack or other stacking multipliers. You are also devoting all of your 4th and 5th level slots to do something that any properly built fighter can already do...better. c) Exactly...clerics shouldn't blast. Why on earth would you memorize Flame Strike or Searing Light? About the only 3 good blasts a cleric gets are Holy Smite (only because it has a blind side-effect), Bolt of Glory (no save, d12/level to evil outsiders), and Firestorm (massive area, decent damage, shapeable, and friendly fire friendly). Of those, 2 are only accessable through domains, and the other is a 7th level spell, far out of reach of standard play for a long time. d) if your party is full of fighters and paladins and whatnot, you are better off taking Righteous Wrath of the Faithful in that 5th level slot, instead of Flame Strike. You'll do more damage indirectly vicariously through your melee friends than you will on a DC20 Flame Strike that'll probably get saved against and possibly even evaded. Undead also tend to be the nastiest per CR encounters possible. Their HD scale well, their stat mods are usually amazing, and almost all of them have a nasty negative energy effect, half of which don't have saves. Next time you are getting hit by spring attacking greater shadows doing 1d8 str damage per hit with almost no chance to miss and your cleric can't turn them because he can't get to 9 HD.
#19 warningfire May 05, 2008 16:41:15	when traveling with heavy melee... trolls and hydras aren't the problem. Harpys are. they fly and have high ac. GL HF. True air walk is great. True retreating and looking for cover is great too (but a harpy isn't dumb they ambush you in the open where there is no cover). After your little air walk. blowing something away sounds like a good option to me. In this case he is traveling with heavy casters. Might have to supplement as a fighter. One round to go divine power and step up isn't going to hurt. 3/4s BA just means you don't hit as much and d8 compared to d10... that's only a couple of hp you know if you take average 4-5 vs 5-6 it's 1 hp every other level. improved toughness feat makes up for it. You might not be the best melee combatant around... but you'll still be a formidable foe and to top things off you can heal. Same thing when traveling with a bunch of fighters... you might want to plan battle field control, dispel, and ranged damage. Won't beat a wizard but you'll still kick ass and heal which wizards can't do. A cleric is good melee and good ranged damage dealer (may not be awesome), but you get the luxery of preparing your spells for either circumstance. All your spells can be heals (except at sixth level you start planning the spell "heal").
#20 nubman76 May 05, 2008 19:24:22	What books are the Divine Metamagic: Persist and others in?
#21 bhale187 May 05, 2008 20:40:53	What books are the Divine Metamagic: Persist and others in? CL is caster level most of the domains and divine feats are in Complete Divine It's in there too
#22 charisma_is_forbards May 13, 2008 16:10:59	Ok I think about playing a Minotaur Cleric. Its the minotaur from the dragonlance campaign setting. And it has no level adjustment. So I think I'm going to be melee oriented what would good be good domains to pick for a melee based cleric. Any help/ideas to optimize this bad boy will help out alot. Thanks
#23 Wyvernhand May 13, 2008 17:21:19	If you really want to go melee cleric, the best advice I can give in good consicousness is to go Ordained Champion (CC). Do not be tempted to the dark side that is DMM:Persist. Ordained Champ give you a nasty smite, some decent combat abilities, and at 3rd level, it quickens all of your War Domain spells. That means you get Quickened Divine Power as only a 4th level spell. This cuts your "hulk up" time down to pretty much as single round to get both Divine Power and Righteous Might up. Divine Favor is ok, but the round would be better spent hitting stuff till it stops moving. OC is very flavor heavy towards Heironious, but if you are playing in Dragonlance, Kiri Jolith would be pretty fitting. His image is that of a bull (great for a "bull man"), and he is venerated primarily by the Knights of Solomnia, and most specifically the Knights of the Sword, I believe. Its been a while since I read a lot of Dragonlance. Kaz the Minotaur, the only Minotaur Knight of Solomnia, was a chosen of Kiri Jolith IIRC. For feats, Power Attack is great. Holy Warrior(CC) at some point is another good one for stacking damage. Get a nice 2handed weapon and go to town. Early levels are gonna be ok, because of the massive +str you get from Minotaur, and mid-late levels will be decent because of the fact that you are a freakin cleric. Good luck and have fun!
#24 joemama1512 May 14, 2008 14:36:48	I think divine metamagic is ok, as long as you don't get ridiculous with it. Go cleric, get a nightstick for +4 turn attempts. Reliquary holy symbol for up to 3 more. Domains: preperation gives extend spell for free. undeath gives extra turning for free, but Id pick a domain with a nice ability like Pride or Luck. So you can get DMM:persist pretty early on and use it for say 1 spell... something like Prayer or Recitation can buff your whole party, which makes people like you more. If you start doing a lot of cheeze and extended persisting multiple spells then it becomes unruly. But with 1 spell, it is not too unreasonable. See this thread for more info: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=407298
#25 operation_shoestring May 14, 2008 14:50:17	Two bards? Why? Why in god's name? One bard is good, especially in large-ish party. Two bards is redundant. Not true. Bards can serve many kinds of roles. Heck, in a large party you can have 1 bard Inspire Courage and the other do Dragonfire Inspiration for a massive buff to melee combatants. Bards have 4 areas of possible excellency: Melee, Skills, Casting, and Music. A bard typically has to focus on just Two of those, leaving plenty of room for 2 bards in a party.