2 weapon fighting optimization?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

aronson

Jun 15, 2009 16:38:07		I am starting a new campaign soon and i want to fight with 2 weapons. i have part of the build done, and have decided to go fighter/rogue. it looks like this as of now...

Race: Feral Human
Stats: Str 20, Dex 17, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 11
Flaws: Shaky, Inattentive

1st- Rogue (Dodge, Mobility, Exotic weapon Prof. Maul, Weapon focus Maul)
2nd- Fighter (2 weapon Fightin)
3rd- Fighter (oversized 2 weapon fighting, ?)
4th- Rogue (+1 dex)
5th- Fighter
6th- Rogue (spring attack)
7th- Fighter (Imp 2 weapon Fighting)
8th- Tempest (+1 Str)
9th- Tempest (Weapon Specialization Maul)
10- Tempest
11- Tempest
12- Tempest (Melee weapon mastery Bludgening, +1 str)

Wish i could the last few feats a little earlier, but the sneak attack makes 2 weapon fighting more effective. Also, i dont really know where to go from here. My party has a master tranmogrofist in it, so he can take care of front line and i can flank. that also leaves the options open for me. I was just wondering how this looks to everyone and what im missing? Any help will be greatly appreciated.
#2

feloniousela

Jun 15, 2009 18:50:25 		Just have the party mage cast Greater Mighty Wallop on both of your Mauls. Also, more SA is better.
#3

kelb_havoc

Jun 15, 2009 19:14:38 		Just curious, are you taking flaws for those extra feats at first level, and if so which ones?
#4

aluroon

Jun 15, 2009 19:23:49 		Here's some TWF advice. Don't. The only time it is ever viable is when you are rocking the sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish dice. Otherwise two handing or sword and boarding (which I guess is sort of TWF) is infinitely better.
#5

emy

Jun 15, 2009 20:24:01 		You have a little bit of sneak attack in there, but I think you want a good bit more, if you're going TWF. Have you considered Bardy stuff like Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance, and/or regular ol' Inspire Courage? Or perhaps, ensuring that a teammate/cohort of yours has DFI?
#6

xakypshalorn

Jun 15, 2009 20:29:12 		Between a little sneak attack (and more in later levels) and mighty wallop series spells he should do reasonably on the damage (NEVER turn away a fellow party member that shows interest in playing a bard unless the party is overfull of arcanists, just do your best to help him optimize his music. A little suggestion to a fellow player here or there towards playing one never hurts either lol.)

I have to ask though, why mauls? They work well with the mentioned spell, but independently speaking you'd be way better off going Short Sword and Shadow Blade. (Or Drow Combat Knife, Shadow Blade, and Invisible Blade)

Edit: Now that I think about it, you could probably get away with Sai's as an invisible blade, if your DM agrees. Adding those to the mix would let you get Shadow Blade dex based damage, AND have the mighty wallop spells cast on it.
#7

aronson

Jun 15, 2009 20:35:51 		Yes i am taking flaws for the extra feet at lvl 1 (shaky and inattentive).

as for the DONT thing, that is not very helpfull. After tempest my options are open. i was thinking about maybe asassin or ghost faced killer, but i'm trying to keep as close to a full BAB as i can. Also between melee weapon mastery and tempest i can "sword" and board. My sheild would get the benifts of all my Maul feat.


thank you FeloniousEla.
#8

aronson

Jun 15, 2009 20:39:02
I have to ask though, why mauls? They work well with the mentioned spell, but independently speaking you'd be way better off going Short Sword and Shadow Blade. (Or Drow Combat Knife, Shadow Blade, and Invisible Blade)

I took mauls so i could get crushings blows. +1 to hit for every time you have hit them this round.
#9

blightersbane

Jun 15, 2009 21:10:51 		If you have sneak attack, haste, wraithstrike, two wep, imp two wep, greater two fight & improved fient...no armor, no dex your hitting on everything but a 1! this would could be some hella damage!

especially when you have 2 elven thin blades or rapier and imp crit or keen
your going to crit 15-20, once/twice a melee round on average. and like in our campaign if you roll another crit threat on confirmation you add 1 to the crit multiplier and roll again, and sometimes you get 3 or very rarely 4 or more follow thru and all of a sudden you got ginormous damage.


BB
#10

xakypshalorn

Jun 15, 2009 21:20:55 		The problem with that Blightersbane, is that Improved Feint burns your move action. Meaning he may as well be using only one maul and getting more feats to play with if he's planning on improved feint. Two weapon fighting only works on a full attack (I agree, it's lame, but that's how the rules are written.)
#11

SwordDisciple

Jun 15, 2009 21:28:41
Edit: Now that I think about it, you could probably get away with Sai's as an invisible blade, if your DM agrees. Adding those to the mix would let you get Shadow Blade dex based damage, AND have the mighty wallop spells cast on it.

This makes feinting WAY more viable.. But you will need your DM's consent to qualify with Sai.
#12

blightersbane

Jun 15, 2009 22:08:47 		ok fine be that way! add 6 levels of beguiler, swift fient, Ok now were back in action!

BB
#13

cragghunter

Jun 15, 2009 23:21:52 		I don't know if this is against your character concept
but have you considered building a Dervish here is the link to the handbook
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=629013.
#14

Endarire

Jun 15, 2009 23:48:47 		Cloistered Cleric1 for Travel Devotion. WhirlPounce Barbarian1. Swordsage1 at L9 gets you Assassin Stance for +2d6 SA.
#15

xakypshalorn

Jun 16, 2009 0:29:27 		No it doesn't lol, first stance learned has to be a level 1 stance.
#16

dandu

Jun 16, 2009 0:36:08 		Pretty much all your feats are traps.
#17

xakypshalorn

Jun 16, 2009 0:44:04 		OH SNAP!!! Dandu's right. Oversized two weapon fighting??? If you need to take that to use the mauls then they aren't worth the benefit.
#18

emy

Jun 16, 2009 1:50:05
Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Which books are allowed? Is dragon magazine allowed?

I assume you're starting at level 12. Is this correct?
#19

xakypshalorn

Jun 16, 2009 2:21:42 		Even if it's not, perhaps you could identify the dragon magazine piece you were considering for it? I'm really curious now lol.
#20

emy

Jun 16, 2009 2:54:07 		I wasn't think of anything specific, since I don't know that much about TWFing, but it would probably end up something like:

Silverbrow Human Bard 4/Martial Chaos Monk 2/Whatever 14

(chaos monk variant, combined with the martial monk variant)
for the martial chaos monk feats: Weapon Supremacy (Dagger) and Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting

normal feats:
flaw(shaky): Extra Music
human: Dragonfire Inspiration
1: Extra Music
3: Snowflake Wardance
6: Song of the Heart? Ascetic Mage?

just boost inspire courage as much as possible and use Dragonfire Inspiration, Inspire Courage, and Snowflake Wardance all at the same time. (I believe you can use two songs simultaneously with a Harmonizing weapon. If not, perhaps Warchanter 5, or using DFI at the same time as Dread Pirate's Rally the Crew / I think there's a bard/pirate thread around here somewhere)

Slippers of Battledancing could replace Snowflake Wardance, and do it better, if the bard pumps Use Psionic Device, and gets a Psicrown of the Evader. The Psicrown would let the bard move with a move action (triggering the Slippers) and still get a full attack.
#21

sofawall

Jun 16, 2009 3:50:48
(chaos monk variant, combined with the martial monk variant)
for the martial chaos monk feats: Weapon Supremacy (Dagger) and Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting

Wait, what? Perfect Two-Weapon fighting? Isn't that an Epic feat?
#22

lormador

Jun 16, 2009 7:03:30 		Couldn't we just mace it up, instead of using mauls? Saves feats and opens Lightning Mace.
#23

emy

Jun 16, 2009 10:57:30
Wait, what? Perfect Two-Weapon fighting? Isn't that an Epic feat?

Yeah, and Weapon Supremacy requires Fighter 18 and a whole bunch of other feats...

but they're both fighter bonus feats.

Martial Monk lets the monk choose their monk bonus feats from the fighter bonus feat list. Since the ability doesn't change, just the feat options, they still have the ability to ignore prerequisites.

I forget where I originally read this trick; I think it was Tsuyo's.
#24

aronson

Jun 16, 2009 17:38:45
I don't know if this is against your character concept
but have you considered building a Dervish here is the link to the handbook
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=629013.

I was originally going to go dervish but i realized that since i am feral i get pounce. This makes dervish a little lack luster, except for the scimitar thing. which is just a feat anway (oversized 2 wpn fighting).


Which books are allowed? Is dragon magazine allowed?

i wish we could use dragon however we have no access to it, so that is not a viable option for this build.
#25

aronson

Jun 16, 2009 17:44:48
I don't know if this is against your character concept
but have you considered building a Dervish here is the link to the handbook
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=629013.

I was originally going to go dervish but i realized that since i am feral i get pounce. This makes dervish a little lack luster, except for the scimitar thing. which is just a feat anway (oversized 2 wpn fighting).


Which books are allowed? Is dragon magazine allowed?

i wish we could use dragon however we have no access to it, so that is not a viable option for this build.
#26

cragghunter

Jun 17, 2009 9:34:40
I was originally going to go dervish but i realized that since i am feral i get pounce. This makes dervish a little lack luster, except for the scimitar thing. which is just a feat anway (oversized 2 wpn fighting).




i wish we could use dragon however we have no access to it, so that is not a viable option for this build.

Weird I didn't post your second quote Emy did .

I think you need to go back and read the dervish handbook it is a lot better than you thank you can have both pounce and dervish dance that gives you two effective forms of delivery of 2wpn attacks .
Also you don't have to use scimitars when dancing it is just a perquisite for the PRC
#27

sofawall

Jun 17, 2009 12:17:28
Martial Monk lets the monk choose their monk bonus feats from the fighter bonus feat list. Since the ability doesn't change, just the feat options, they still have the ability to ignore prerequisites.

I forget where I originally read this trick; I think it was Tsuyo's.

Wow. Just... Wow.

Insanity.
#28

blightersbane

Jun 17, 2009 12:31:26 		its in crystalkeep, classes, as a Monk varient

Blightersbane
#29

aronson

Jun 17, 2009 14:24:29
I think you need to go back and read the dervish handbook it is a lot better than you thank you can have both pounce and dervish dance that gives you two effective forms of delivery of 2wpn attacks .
Also you don't have to use scimitars when dancing it is just a perquisite for the PRC

thanks for showing me that, there is alot of good stuff in there. + movement + mastery +dance +thousand cuts 1/day. thats actually 3 though, tempest give 2 weapon spring also. lacks sneak attack but i may alternate with rogue or asassin.