+2 will save dip for MoS? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

+2 will save dip for MoS?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
oprick
Dec 21, 2008 9:34:07 K's guide suggests hexblade, but they are notoriously suck.

of course, there are several factors which could be used to identify what is 'optimal'. you can go BAB, HP, or special abilities. Im leaning toward the latter, and particularly one which isnt level dependent.

for example, one level of Warlock would give you a d6 EB, and one least invocation usable at will. there are some good utility invocations, including darkness and devil's sight.

stalwart sorcerer (CM) gives a few bonus HP, as well as a free martial weapon proficiency and weapon focus with that weapon.

artificer would grant a few infusions and scribe scroll. the name of the feat escapes me, but the one that increases caster level for multiclassed casters? im not sure if that would increase infusion level or not

druid would get you more divine spells (which you could DMM) as well as an animal companion, which could be a light or heavy horse

the shapeshifter variant (PHB2) would get you a neat animal form

wizard would get you scribe scroll, and a familiar which you can later spellstitch. the immediate magic variant from PHB2 would get you 'sudden shift' 'brief figment' or abrupt jaunt'

of course there are more, but id like to hear everyone's opinions and contributions
#2
ChristopherGroves
Dec 21, 2008 10:14:49 Monk is somewhat traditional.

Another option is Druid or Spirit Shaman ... and advance THOSE classes instead of cleric.
#3
oprick
Dec 21, 2008 10:55:05 thats an interesting approach, but I would prefer to advance cleric casting for 2 reasons.

1: the diversity of spells to choose, as opposed to the limited spirit shaman list, and the necromantic usefulness of cleric spells over druid spells. (desecrate, &c)

2: the improved summoning class feature improves only summon undead, as the spell, and undead summoned by the MoS class ability

favoured soul is an option, but some cleric spells will only be used sporadically, like animate dead and planar ally- a condition which makes it hard to justify the presence of such spells on such a short 'spells known' list. the only advantage I can see is the Charisma based casting, which synergizes well with a high number of turn attempts to fuel DMM. however, since wisdom is still used for save DCs, the favored soul is too MAD to ever really be optimized.
#4
phaedrusxy
Dec 21, 2008 10:59:55 Dread Necromancer is pretty nice. You can heal your permanent undead for free with it, and yourself if you're Undead or take Tomb-Tainted Soul. If you can manage getting Turn Undead from cleric (neutral cleric with a neutral deity, maybe), you can get both Rebuke and Turn Undead, which means twice as many "Turn" attempts to burn on Divine Metamagic.
#5
ChristopherGroves
Dec 21, 2008 11:06:06 Not sure what race you are but there are a few of the Paragon classes w/ a will bonus (human, gnome I think ... maybe others)
#6
kurashu
Dec 21, 2008 11:16:45 I think hexblade is a good choice: d10 HD, full martial weapon profs, +1 BAB. Yeah, it's not über fantasich gut, but it's a good one level dip for that purpose. Another one might be generic warrior: good save will, use your bonus feat to grab up a class feature.
#7
hogarth
Dec 21, 2008 17:17:09
I think hexblade is a good choice: d10 HD, full martial weapon profs, +1 BAB. Yeah, it's not über fantasich gut, but it's a good one level dip for that purpose.

It's not the best full BAB class with a good will save. The crusader (in particular) and the knight are both better, for instance.

For non-full BAB classes, I'd go with Dread Necromancer (neg. energy touch), Beguiler (skills), Warlock (invocation), Human Paragon (skills, bonus feats) or the UA druid variant that gives wis to AC. Or Swordsage.
#8
ronyon
Dec 24, 2008 13:06:56 In my side game I am playing a Binder/Beguiler, with Improved Binding( plus 2 to effective binder level for determining the level of Vestige you can bind) .
The Beguiler part was a big mistake, but that one level of Binder plus the feat is a real winner.The feat is a sticking point, but with it you can bind Malphas, for Birds Eye ieiw, Invisibility,Poisen use and Sudden Strike, all perfect for a sneak style MoS.
We dont use DMM, so Im biased, but this seems like a great value for a feat and a level.
#9
Endarire
Dec 27, 2008 0:15:27 I echo cleric. You get +2 Fort and Will, full armor proficiencies, 2 spiffy domains or devotions (I prefer Travel Devotion and Time Domain) and potentially level 1 spells. You can safely use spell trigger items from the cleric list.

This is probably much better than crusader whose benefits scale less.
#10
tshern
Dec 27, 2008 0:32:44
It's not the best full BAB class with a good will save. The crusader (in particular) and the knight are both better, for instance.

For non-full BAB classes, I'd go with Dread Necromancer (neg. energy touch), Beguiler (skills), Warlock (invocation), Human Paragon (skills, bonus feats) or the UA druid variant that gives wis to AC. Or Swordsage.

If Crusader only and good will save...
#11
hogarth
Dec 27, 2008 12:12:20
If Crusader only and good will save...

Shows what happen when I get too lazy to look things up properly...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 oprick Dec 21, 2008 9:34:07	K's guide suggests hexblade, but they are notoriously suck. of course, there are several factors which could be used to identify what is 'optimal'. you can go BAB, HP, or special abilities. Im leaning toward the latter, and particularly one which isnt level dependent. for example, one level of Warlock would give you a d6 EB, and one least invocation usable at will. there are some good utility invocations, including darkness and devil's sight. stalwart sorcerer (CM) gives a few bonus HP, as well as a free martial weapon proficiency and weapon focus with that weapon. artificer would grant a few infusions and scribe scroll. the name of the feat escapes me, but the one that increases caster level for multiclassed casters? im not sure if that would increase infusion level or not druid would get you more divine spells (which you could DMM) as well as an animal companion, which could be a light or heavy horse the shapeshifter variant (PHB2) would get you a neat animal form wizard would get you scribe scroll, and a familiar which you can later spellstitch. the immediate magic variant from PHB2 would get you 'sudden shift' 'brief figment' or abrupt jaunt' of course there are more, but id like to hear everyone's opinions and contributions
#2 ChristopherGroves Dec 21, 2008 10:14:49	Monk is somewhat traditional. Another option is Druid or Spirit Shaman ... and advance THOSE classes instead of cleric.
#3 oprick Dec 21, 2008 10:55:05	thats an interesting approach, but I would prefer to advance cleric casting for 2 reasons. 1: the diversity of spells to choose, as opposed to the limited spirit shaman list, and the necromantic usefulness of cleric spells over druid spells. (desecrate, &c) 2: the improved summoning class feature improves only summon undead, as the spell, and undead summoned by the MoS class ability favoured soul is an option, but some cleric spells will only be used sporadically, like animate dead and planar ally- a condition which makes it hard to justify the presence of such spells on such a short 'spells known' list. the only advantage I can see is the Charisma based casting, which synergizes well with a high number of turn attempts to fuel DMM. however, since wisdom is still used for save DCs, the favored soul is too MAD to ever really be optimized.
#4 phaedrusxy Dec 21, 2008 10:59:55	Dread Necromancer is pretty nice. You can heal your permanent undead for free with it, and yourself if you're Undead or take Tomb-Tainted Soul. If you can manage getting Turn Undead from cleric (neutral cleric with a neutral deity, maybe), you can get both Rebuke and Turn Undead, which means twice as many "Turn" attempts to burn on Divine Metamagic.
#5 ChristopherGroves Dec 21, 2008 11:06:06	Not sure what race you are but there are a few of the Paragon classes w/ a will bonus (human, gnome I think ... maybe others)
#6 kurashu Dec 21, 2008 11:16:45	I think hexblade is a good choice: d10 HD, full martial weapon profs, +1 BAB. Yeah, it's not über fantasich gut, but it's a good one level dip for that purpose. Another one might be generic warrior: good save will, use your bonus feat to grab up a class feature.
#7 hogarth Dec 21, 2008 17:17:09	I think hexblade is a good choice: d10 HD, full martial weapon profs, +1 BAB. Yeah, it's not über fantasich gut, but it's a good one level dip for that purpose. It's not the best full BAB class with a good will save. The crusader (in particular) and the knight are both better, for instance. For non-full BAB classes, I'd go with Dread Necromancer (neg. energy touch), Beguiler (skills), Warlock (invocation), Human Paragon (skills, bonus feats) or the UA druid variant that gives wis to AC. Or Swordsage.
#8 ronyon Dec 24, 2008 13:06:56	In my side game I am playing a Binder/Beguiler, with Improved Binding( plus 2 to effective binder level for determining the level of Vestige you can bind) . The Beguiler part was a big mistake, but that one level of Binder plus the feat is a real winner.The feat is a sticking point, but with it you can bind Malphas, for Birds Eye ieiw, Invisibility,Poisen use and Sudden Strike, all perfect for a sneak style MoS. We dont use DMM, so Im biased, but this seems like a great value for a feat and a level.
#9 Endarire Dec 27, 2008 0:15:27	I echo cleric. You get +2 Fort and Will, full armor proficiencies, 2 spiffy domains or devotions (I prefer Travel Devotion and Time Domain) and potentially level 1 spells. You can safely use spell trigger items from the cleric list. This is probably much better than crusader whose benefits scale less.
#10 tshern Dec 27, 2008 0:32:44	It's not the best full BAB class with a good will save. The crusader (in particular) and the knight are both better, for instance. For non-full BAB classes, I'd go with Dread Necromancer (neg. energy touch), Beguiler (skills), Warlock (invocation), Human Paragon (skills, bonus feats) or the UA druid variant that gives wis to AC. Or Swordsage. If Crusader only and good will save...
#11 hogarth Dec 27, 2008 12:12:20	If Crusader only and good will save... Shows what happen when I get too lazy to look things up properly...