2-30 Build help please? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

2-30 Build help please?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
lordsurge
Apr 06, 2009 14:23:20 Greetings folks.

One of my 3rd edition D&D games is going to be starting the War Against the Drow campaign soon and I am feeling a bit strapped for interesting character ideas and builds lately. As such, I decided to come here and ask for a bit of assistance.

Essentially what I need is some build suggestions for 2 characters.

One I'll be playing my self, and that's a Bard type. I've seen the Ur-priest/Sublime Chord silliness, and would like to avoid that. I'd like the character to make some sort of sense, but I'm moderately good at making stories for my characters to exist. Ideally a good all-around character that can hold their own and be helpful in both melee and support roles.

The other I'll be making is for a friend of mine who likes simple characters. Simple in the sense that he likes to wade into combat and hit things. No complicated maneuvers or the like please, as simpler is better. Ideally a strong melee tank/damage dealer would be the way to go.

Both characters will be starting at level 2, and will (eventually) progress from 2 to 30 over the course of this campaign. Stat points are 84 points we can distribute freely (Though no Starting stat can have more than 18 points before racial modifiers come into play).

All books are allowed as long as the DM has them, and he has pretty much every book. All of the base races are allowed and I can probably convince the DM to allow me to use a template or two, if they're particularly appealing.

There is also a Unique Legacy item for each character the GM is allowing us to help design. This will of course grow with us as we level up. It'll be related to the character in a useful way. Just something to keep in mind.

Thanks for your time, I'm looking forward to seeing what ideas you folks can help with.
#2
hijaxx
Apr 06, 2009 14:29:32 you friend could stack power attack increasing feats. like, leap attack, battle jump, wielding a 2-handed weapon, and all the others.
if you start at level 2, not many templates are going to fit in, so i suggest going half-orc, and maybe taking 3 levels of paragon.
#3
keithio
Apr 06, 2009 15:14:42 Aw, Sublime Chord isn't silly. C'mon... you know you waaanna.

Levels In Order:
Bard4/Paladin(Freedom)2/Barbarian(Pounce)1/AbjurantChampion3/SublimeChord1/SacredExorcist1/AbjurantChampion2/SublimeChord1/Spellsword1/SacredExorcist3/DragonSlayer|Crusader|Swordsage|Warblade1

Level Summary:
4 Bard
2 Paladin
1 Barbarian
5 AbjurantChampion
2 SublimeChord
4 SacredExorcist
1 Spellsword
1 DragonSlayer|Crusader|Swordsage|Warblade

Come to the dark side of the CO. It's not like DMs don't like it when you take 8 different classes.
#4
lordsurge
Apr 06, 2009 16:17:49 While my DM chooses not to institute a multi-class experience penalty, I've been down the many PRC/Class route before.

I'm not aiming to be the Damage dealing star of this group, as I do that in several of the other campaigns we've got going at the moment and the complaining about how silly and powerful my characters are (Pure fighter Greatsword wielder, and Rogue/Shadow Dancer/Deepwood Sniper/Peerless Archer) gets old after a while.

I actually built a rather mean dual-kukri wielding jumping maniac, but decided not to use it in favor of a Bard style character.

That said, I don't want to be completely useless in combat either.

I was thinking of wielding a Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade and enjoying some Whirling blade type action.

As for the Tank/Damager, I will be stacking feats and class features to maximize damage and survivability, yeah.
#5
dr_rocktopus
Apr 06, 2009 16:25:35 There is one Super-Tanker, and his name is Frenzied Berserker.

5 lion totem (Comp Champ) barbarian/ 10 frenzied berserker
Finish as desired, teflammar shadowlord mixes well, and if you like you can do silly things to avoid death effects. Up to you.

I have a more elegant version around, but this is very simple. You'll take righteous wrath so that you can control yourself while raging. It turns out that the current RAW reading is that you can use RW to control yourself while frenzied as long as you are also raging. Bare bones eagle riding barbarian super-charger.
Valorous lance and spirited charge alone are quadruple damage. Leap attack can be finagled to work but you probably shouldn't push it. Also, leap attack has weird interactions with improved and supreme power attack, that are RAW\RAI tar pits.
#6
lordsurge
Apr 06, 2009 16:47:58 I'd considered Barbarians and Frenzied Berserkers but the player already plays a Barbarian in a different game in which we play together, and some times will choose to try and kill a target which the party is trying to subdue 'just for the Hell of it'.

I should also note that this player has a strange habit of getting targetted and succesfully affected by mind controlling NPCs and Monsters.

The build can be complex and bizzarre if need be, but the end result I'd like to be as simple as 'Here's your attack (power[s]), and here's your damage.

I'm thinking a Dwarf Hammer Wielder perhaps. The kind of fellow who has an enormous boulder fall on him, grunts, gets back up and asks if that's the best you've got.
#7
awaken_D_M_golem
Apr 06, 2009 17:01:24 Rogue 1 / Bard 1 , onto Bard +X into Sublime Chord and nothing else.
This build gives you a Trapfinder early, skills and face stuff, late game gets decent Arcane casting.
Enough versatility for the 2 character approach, enough eventual power to not be swamped by Pit Fiends, etc.

Druid 1 / Monk 1 , onto Druid 19+ and nothing else.
This build gives you a Frontliner Tier 1 build, and a Wolf that's better than a Fighter.
All the more to be buffed by the Bard, and some healing and summoning for needed versatility.

Both at Epic can get 2 epic spells, to do whatever you need,

Both Druid and Bard builds are standards in eithers' respective handbook.
Check Surreal's index at the top of the page for more details.

Have fun.
#8
dr_rocktopus
Apr 06, 2009 17:36:31 Wait. Did you say it can be as complicated as needed?
Do you mean that? Because I can hand you a ticking angry time-bomb of a build that is basically indestructible, incorruptible, and infinitely angry.
#9
keithio
Apr 06, 2009 17:41:49 It should be noted that the build I posted has no multiclass EXP penalty at any point as long as the character has favored class (bard) or favored class (any). PRCs do not count towards EXP penalties.

Other than Sublime Chord suggestions, I can really only point you towards

Inspire Courage Optimization and the Bard's Handbook

The highlights of those threads being the Snowflake Wardance feat from Frostburn, the Words of Creation feat from Book of Exalted Deeds and the slippers of battledancing item from the DMG2. Along with the echoblades you mentioned.

...But are you sure you wouldn't rather have level 9 spells, 17 BAB, charisma to damage, charisma to saves... cmon....
#10
lordsurge
Apr 06, 2009 18:10:15 Complication can be fun.

However, I'd rather have a simple sheet to hand the fellow who'll be using it. It makes things easier. Insane Under-the-hood mechanics are fine.

I apologize for being a bit unclear, We'll have 4-6 people in the party, but the roles needed for these two characters (I'll be playing the bard, I'm just building the tanky character for someone else who doesn't quite excel at character creation) were those outlined earlier (We'll have a Cleric, Arcane Caster, and an occasional Rogue).

I will probably take the Sublime chord class for some nice Arcane casting, but I'd like a decent AB and saves to boot. Maybe I will throw some Paladin in there, or Black guard. Evasion isn't too tough to get, or even Mettle.

Would it be worth dipping into Hexblade for the +charisma to spell saves, Decent Will saves, and Full BAB?

I know that build has no penalties as listed, but I mention it in case some folks have a hidden inhibition against builds which would be hampered by said rule.
#11
keithio
Apr 06, 2009 18:26:00 The SC build I posted earlier was pretty darn optimal, but you can have it simpler if you feel like toning yourself down.

Bard7/Paladin(OfFreedom)2/EldritchKnight1/SublclimeChord2/EldritchKnight8

Using only 4 classes instead of 8, but loses out on lots of fun stuff. Still has 17 BAB, 10/10 Sublime Chord casting, CHA to saves.
#12
lordsurge
Apr 06, 2009 20:07:31 The second build seems significantly more reasonable.

I just don't want to be stealing the spotlight from everyone and making the encounters less fun by blowing everything away too easily.

Thanks for the assistance.

What would you recommend from 21-30? Continuing with Bard?

Also, I read up in those threads about Inspire Courage buffing and such, any feat recommendations to go with your build?

I haven't looked through epic builds in a long while so I'm a bit rusty in that aspect.

Since that's mostly settled, about the tank.

I was thinking Fighter/Weapon Master/Dwarven Defender with his focus being in a reach weapon (Any suggestions? Maybe a huge pole-arm with the Balanced property and monkey grip)
#13
sofawall
Apr 06, 2009 20:23:22 For bards I like Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation with a badge of valour, vest of legends and slippers of battledancing.
#14
keithio
Apr 06, 2009 21:13:44 For your friend I recommend Warlock20, using the Eldritch Glaive invocation from dragon magic, which allows you to make melee full attacks with your eldritch blast, using reach.

Also gets some interesting invocations that hopefully he will find fun.

I think warlock is a very newb-friendly class.
#15
sofawall
Apr 06, 2009 21:16:35 Isn't eldritch glaive touch?

Get some binder, get Naberius for con healing, and get some hellfire going.
#16
lordsurge
Apr 06, 2009 21:45:20 Warlock is a class he's enjoyed playing before, but he has indicated he wanted the role of a fighter in the party. How would said Warlock be in melee combat?

I've only played a Warlock in our 4th edition game so I have no idea as to their general capabilities in 3rd edition.

I'm not familiar with the Dragon Magic book, so I'll have to look into it.

Remember too, that the scope of these builds goes to 30.

I had envisioned Fighter 8 / Weapon Master (Some reach weapon [Perhaps a huge whip?]) 7 / Dwarven Defender 15.
#17
keithio
Apr 06, 2009 21:45:48 Yes, it is touch.

I didn't bother mentioning funkier (IE more optimal) glaivelock builds, for the sake of simplicity.
#18
sofawall
Apr 06, 2009 21:47:37 Reach weapons depend on weider size, not weapon size.

Also, Eldritch Glaive with Hellfire does massive damage. Not as good as a leap attcking shocktrooper frenzied berzerker maxing powerattack, but still quite good.

Oh, and if not using Warlock, I recommend war hulk for the 10 epic levels. +2 str every level and full BAB for epic? Yes please!
#19
casualgatherer
Apr 06, 2009 21:49:07 If you want a less main-stream fighter, try Knight from the PHBII. I've always found them relativly simple and somewhat good, even though there is no support for them past PHBII.
#20
sofawall
Apr 06, 2009 21:52:16 How is hellfire tough? Take a level of binder, get Naberius and fire away!
#21
keithio
Apr 06, 2009 22:04:17 The Warlock 20 has 15 BAB and full attacks as melee touch attacks with reach for 9d6 damage each.

To optimize it and be sketchy RAW (I don't think this is illegal, but it should be if it isn't):
Warlock7/Binder1/Barbarian1/HellfireWarlock1/LegacyChampion10

Has 11 BAB (Still 3 attacks), still does them as melee touch attacks... except they do 22d6 damage each. Also can full attack on a charge, thanks to barbarian. Also probably gets abilities from legacy champion, but to be honest I didn't even bother looking at them =p.

If I ever were to play a glaivelock, I would opt for Warlock1/Cleric4/EldritchDisciple10/ClericPRC5... but cleric casting and invocations sounds like too much for your friend.
#22
sofawall
Apr 06, 2009 22:11:53 What does legacy champion get you? I don't have weapons of legacy.
#23
keithio
Apr 06, 2009 22:18:45 It gets you lots of things, but in particular it gives you 8/10 "Advances class features", which means spellcasting and familiars for wizards, sneak attack for rogues, spellcasting and wild shape and animal companion for druids... Or in this case hellfire blast for hellfire warlock. It gives other things too, but I don't feel like reading it.

Back onto the subject of the bard, I came up with a build you might like more.

Bard8/Virtuoso2/SublimeChord1/Virtuoso8/SublimeChord1

Virtuoso advances bardic music, so this build is for inspire courage optimization alongside 9th level spells from sublime chord.
#24
lordsurge
Apr 06, 2009 22:18:48 22d6 is some pretty hefty damage to be hurling about.

Nice suggestion on the Naberius + Hellfire, I really must do some more reading on possibilities now that we're starting so many new campaigns up almost simultaneously.

As far as Legacy Champion, we're already getting a 'free' item of Legacy each, but two couldn't hurt I suppose (Actually, stacking penalties from 2 of those suckers would add up quick).

Pure classes always have a strange sort of appeal, it's hard to explain.

Thanks also for clarifying about reach and wielder size rather than weapon size.
#25
keithio
Apr 06, 2009 22:20:35 Legacy Champion doesn't grant you a weapon, it requires you to have one for entry.
#26
sofawall
Apr 06, 2009 22:24:59 Wow, Legacy Champion is great for short prestige classes, then?
#27
lordsurge
Apr 06, 2009 22:32:35 Silly me for reading what others said rather than digging out the book my self.

Would it extrapolate the chart?

2d6 extra damage every other level would add up to quite a fierce (and broken) damage total rather quickly.
#28
keithio
Apr 06, 2009 22:55:55 The argument is that the text is what matters, and the text says hellfire warlock gets +2d6 damage every class level, so you should in theory be able to continue it.

It's definitely incredibly shady, and can be applied to many PRCs with varyingly broken results. If it was a full BAB class, it would be hilarious. At 3/4 BAB, it doesn't make the CO world explode.

You could use it to get 14 more AC from abjurant champion, to get 18/12 casting from Ultimate Magus and persist 7th level spells, or whatever.

I've never seen a thread where people argue about how RAW it is, I'm sure it must exist though. My rule of thumb is that if you have to argue that it's RAW, it isn't =p.
#29
awaken_D_M_golem
Apr 07, 2009 18:11:44
but he has indicated he wanted the role of a fighter in the party.

I had envisioned Fighter 8 / Weapon Master (Some reach weapon [Perhaps a huge whip?]) 7 / Dwarven Defender 15.

Druid's War Puppy is a better Fighter than the Fighter.
Druid is a better Fighter than the Fighter.
Two for one discount.
And Epic Spells !!

Druid 1 / Monk 1 / Druid 2 to 20 / Fighter 2 for excellent Epic Feats / Cosmic Descryer 7
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/cosmicDescryer.htm

Remember, there's only two of you, you need casting.
#30
dr_rocktopus
Apr 07, 2009 20:51:46 Warblade 20 is better than almost anything involving fighter, but that might require too much thought. Diamond mind would solve his uh.... his... domination issues, so you know, I think it'd be worthwhile.
#31
lordsurge
Apr 11, 2009 14:11:44 Thanks for all the assistance folks.

Any chance of 21-30 suggestions for Bardic classes?

I looked through the Diamond Mind maneuvers but didn't see a mind immunity granting stance or anything, what did I miss?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lordsurge Apr 06, 2009 14:23:20	Greetings folks. One of my 3rd edition D&D games is going to be starting the War Against the Drow campaign soon and I am feeling a bit strapped for interesting character ideas and builds lately. As such, I decided to come here and ask for a bit of assistance. Essentially what I need is some build suggestions for 2 characters. One I'll be playing my self, and that's a Bard type. I've seen the Ur-priest/Sublime Chord silliness, and would like to avoid that. I'd like the character to make some sort of sense, but I'm moderately good at making stories for my characters to exist. Ideally a good all-around character that can hold their own and be helpful in both melee and support roles. The other I'll be making is for a friend of mine who likes simple characters. Simple in the sense that he likes to wade into combat and hit things. No complicated maneuvers or the like please, as simpler is better. Ideally a strong melee tank/damage dealer would be the way to go. Both characters will be starting at level 2, and will (eventually) progress from 2 to 30 over the course of this campaign. Stat points are 84 points we can distribute freely (Though no Starting stat can have more than 18 points before racial modifiers come into play). All books are allowed as long as the DM has them, and he has pretty much every book. All of the base races are allowed and I can probably convince the DM to allow me to use a template or two, if they're particularly appealing. There is also a Unique Legacy item for each character the GM is allowing us to help design. This will of course grow with us as we level up. It'll be related to the character in a useful way. Just something to keep in mind. Thanks for your time, I'm looking forward to seeing what ideas you folks can help with.
#2 hijaxx Apr 06, 2009 14:29:32	you friend could stack power attack increasing feats. like, leap attack, battle jump, wielding a 2-handed weapon, and all the others. if you start at level 2, not many templates are going to fit in, so i suggest going half-orc, and maybe taking 3 levels of paragon.
#3 keithio Apr 06, 2009 15:14:42	Aw, Sublime Chord isn't silly. C'mon... you know you waaanna. Levels In Order: Bard4/Paladin(Freedom)2/Barbarian(Pounce)1/AbjurantChampion3/SublimeChord1/SacredExorcist1/AbjurantChampion2/SublimeChord1/Spellsword1/SacredExorcist3/DragonSlayer\|Crusader\|Swordsage\|Warblade1 Level Summary: 4 Bard 2 Paladin 1 Barbarian 5 AbjurantChampion 2 SublimeChord 4 SacredExorcist 1 Spellsword 1 DragonSlayer\|Crusader\|Swordsage\|Warblade Come to the dark side of the CO. It's not like DMs don't like it when you take 8 different classes.
#4 lordsurge Apr 06, 2009 16:17:49	While my DM chooses not to institute a multi-class experience penalty, I've been down the many PRC/Class route before. I'm not aiming to be the Damage dealing star of this group, as I do that in several of the other campaigns we've got going at the moment and the complaining about how silly and powerful my characters are (Pure fighter Greatsword wielder, and Rogue/Shadow Dancer/Deepwood Sniper/Peerless Archer) gets old after a while. I actually built a rather mean dual-kukri wielding jumping maniac, but decided not to use it in favor of a Bard style character. That said, I don't want to be completely useless in combat either. I was thinking of wielding a Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade and enjoying some Whirling blade type action. As for the Tank/Damager, I will be stacking feats and class features to maximize damage and survivability, yeah.
#5 dr_rocktopus Apr 06, 2009 16:25:35	There is one Super-Tanker, and his name is Frenzied Berserker. 5 lion totem (Comp Champ) barbarian/ 10 frenzied berserker Finish as desired, teflammar shadowlord mixes well, and if you like you can do silly things to avoid death effects. Up to you. I have a more elegant version around, but this is very simple. You'll take righteous wrath so that you can control yourself while raging. It turns out that the current RAW reading is that you can use RW to control yourself while frenzied as long as you are also raging. Bare bones eagle riding barbarian super-charger. Valorous lance and spirited charge alone are quadruple damage. Leap attack can be finagled to work but you probably shouldn't push it. Also, leap attack has weird interactions with improved and supreme power attack, that are RAW\RAI tar pits.
#6 lordsurge Apr 06, 2009 16:47:58	I'd considered Barbarians and Frenzied Berserkers but the player already plays a Barbarian in a different game in which we play together, and some times will choose to try and kill a target which the party is trying to subdue 'just for the Hell of it'. I should also note that this player has a strange habit of getting targetted and succesfully affected by mind controlling NPCs and Monsters. The build can be complex and bizzarre if need be, but the end result I'd like to be as simple as 'Here's your attack (power[s]), and here's your damage. I'm thinking a Dwarf Hammer Wielder perhaps. The kind of fellow who has an enormous boulder fall on him, grunts, gets back up and asks if that's the best you've got.
#7 awaken_D_M_golem Apr 06, 2009 17:01:24	Rogue 1 / Bard 1 , onto Bard +X into Sublime Chord and nothing else. This build gives you a Trapfinder early, skills and face stuff, late game gets decent Arcane casting. Enough versatility for the 2 character approach, enough eventual power to not be swamped by Pit Fiends, etc. Druid 1 / Monk 1 , onto Druid 19+ and nothing else. This build gives you a Frontliner Tier 1 build, and a Wolf that's better than a Fighter. All the more to be buffed by the Bard, and some healing and summoning for needed versatility. Both at Epic can get 2 epic spells, to do whatever you need, Both Druid and Bard builds are standards in eithers' respective handbook. Check Surreal's index at the top of the page for more details. Have fun.
#8 dr_rocktopus Apr 06, 2009 17:36:31	Wait. Did you say it can be as complicated as needed? Do you mean that? Because I can hand you a ticking angry time-bomb of a build that is basically indestructible, incorruptible, and infinitely angry.
#9 keithio Apr 06, 2009 17:41:49	It should be noted that the build I posted has no multiclass EXP penalty at any point as long as the character has favored class (bard) or favored class (any). PRCs do not count towards EXP penalties. Other than Sublime Chord suggestions, I can really only point you towards Inspire Courage Optimization and the Bard's Handbook The highlights of those threads being the Snowflake Wardance feat from Frostburn, the Words of Creation feat from Book of Exalted Deeds and the slippers of battledancing item from the DMG2. Along with the echoblades you mentioned. ...But are you sure you wouldn't rather have level 9 spells, 17 BAB, charisma to damage, charisma to saves... cmon....
#10 lordsurge Apr 06, 2009 18:10:15	Complication can be fun. However, I'd rather have a simple sheet to hand the fellow who'll be using it. It makes things easier. Insane Under-the-hood mechanics are fine. I apologize for being a bit unclear, We'll have 4-6 people in the party, but the roles needed for these two characters (I'll be playing the bard, I'm just building the tanky character for someone else who doesn't quite excel at character creation) were those outlined earlier (We'll have a Cleric, Arcane Caster, and an occasional Rogue). I will probably take the Sublime chord class for some nice Arcane casting, but I'd like a decent AB and saves to boot. Maybe I will throw some Paladin in there, or Black guard. Evasion isn't too tough to get, or even Mettle. Would it be worth dipping into Hexblade for the +charisma to spell saves, Decent Will saves, and Full BAB? I know that build has no penalties as listed, but I mention it in case some folks have a hidden inhibition against builds which would be hampered by said rule.
#11 keithio Apr 06, 2009 18:26:00	The SC build I posted earlier was pretty darn optimal, but you can have it simpler if you feel like toning yourself down. Bard7/Paladin(OfFreedom)2/EldritchKnight1/SublclimeChord2/EldritchKnight8 Using only 4 classes instead of 8, but loses out on lots of fun stuff. Still has 17 BAB, 10/10 Sublime Chord casting, CHA to saves.
#12 lordsurge Apr 06, 2009 20:07:31	The second build seems significantly more reasonable. I just don't want to be stealing the spotlight from everyone and making the encounters less fun by blowing everything away too easily. Thanks for the assistance. What would you recommend from 21-30? Continuing with Bard? Also, I read up in those threads about Inspire Courage buffing and such, any feat recommendations to go with your build? I haven't looked through epic builds in a long while so I'm a bit rusty in that aspect. Since that's mostly settled, about the tank. I was thinking Fighter/Weapon Master/Dwarven Defender with his focus being in a reach weapon (Any suggestions? Maybe a huge pole-arm with the Balanced property and monkey grip)
#13 sofawall Apr 06, 2009 20:23:22	For bards I like Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation with a badge of valour, vest of legends and slippers of battledancing.
#14 keithio Apr 06, 2009 21:13:44	For your friend I recommend Warlock20, using the Eldritch Glaive invocation from dragon magic, which allows you to make melee full attacks with your eldritch blast, using reach. Also gets some interesting invocations that hopefully he will find fun. I think warlock is a very newb-friendly class.
#15 sofawall Apr 06, 2009 21:16:35	Isn't eldritch glaive touch? Get some binder, get Naberius for con healing, and get some hellfire going.
#16 lordsurge Apr 06, 2009 21:45:20	Warlock is a class he's enjoyed playing before, but he has indicated he wanted the role of a fighter in the party. How would said Warlock be in melee combat? I've only played a Warlock in our 4th edition game so I have no idea as to their general capabilities in 3rd edition. I'm not familiar with the Dragon Magic book, so I'll have to look into it. Remember too, that the scope of these builds goes to 30. I had envisioned Fighter 8 / Weapon Master (Some reach weapon [Perhaps a huge whip?]) 7 / Dwarven Defender 15.
#17 keithio Apr 06, 2009 21:45:48	Yes, it is touch. I didn't bother mentioning funkier (IE more optimal) glaivelock builds, for the sake of simplicity.
#18 sofawall Apr 06, 2009 21:47:37	Reach weapons depend on weider size, not weapon size. Also, Eldritch Glaive with Hellfire does massive damage. Not as good as a leap attcking shocktrooper frenzied berzerker maxing powerattack, but still quite good. Oh, and if not using Warlock, I recommend war hulk for the 10 epic levels. +2 str every level and full BAB for epic? Yes please!
#19 casualgatherer Apr 06, 2009 21:49:07	If you want a less main-stream fighter, try Knight from the PHBII. I've always found them relativly simple and somewhat good, even though there is no support for them past PHBII.
#20 sofawall Apr 06, 2009 21:52:16	How is hellfire tough? Take a level of binder, get Naberius and fire away!
#21 keithio Apr 06, 2009 22:04:17	The Warlock 20 has 15 BAB and full attacks as melee touch attacks with reach for 9d6 damage each. To optimize it and be sketchy RAW (I don't think this is illegal, but it should be if it isn't): Warlock7/Binder1/Barbarian1/HellfireWarlock1/LegacyChampion10 Has 11 BAB (Still 3 attacks), still does them as melee touch attacks... except they do 22d6 damage each. Also can full attack on a charge, thanks to barbarian. Also probably gets abilities from legacy champion, but to be honest I didn't even bother looking at them =p. If I ever were to play a glaivelock, I would opt for Warlock1/Cleric4/EldritchDisciple10/ClericPRC5... but cleric casting and invocations sounds like too much for your friend.
#22 sofawall Apr 06, 2009 22:11:53	What does legacy champion get you? I don't have weapons of legacy.
#23 keithio Apr 06, 2009 22:18:45	It gets you lots of things, but in particular it gives you 8/10 "Advances class features", which means spellcasting and familiars for wizards, sneak attack for rogues, spellcasting and wild shape and animal companion for druids... Or in this case hellfire blast for hellfire warlock. It gives other things too, but I don't feel like reading it. Back onto the subject of the bard, I came up with a build you might like more. Bard8/Virtuoso2/SublimeChord1/Virtuoso8/SublimeChord1 Virtuoso advances bardic music, so this build is for inspire courage optimization alongside 9th level spells from sublime chord.
#24 lordsurge Apr 06, 2009 22:18:48	22d6 is some pretty hefty damage to be hurling about. Nice suggestion on the Naberius + Hellfire, I really must do some more reading on possibilities now that we're starting so many new campaigns up almost simultaneously. As far as Legacy Champion, we're already getting a 'free' item of Legacy each, but two couldn't hurt I suppose (Actually, stacking penalties from 2 of those suckers would add up quick). Pure classes always have a strange sort of appeal, it's hard to explain. Thanks also for clarifying about reach and wielder size rather than weapon size.
#25 keithio Apr 06, 2009 22:20:35	Legacy Champion doesn't grant you a weapon, it requires you to have one for entry.
#26 sofawall Apr 06, 2009 22:24:59	Wow, Legacy Champion is great for short prestige classes, then?
#27 lordsurge Apr 06, 2009 22:32:35	Silly me for reading what others said rather than digging out the book my self. Would it extrapolate the chart? 2d6 extra damage every other level would add up to quite a fierce (and broken) damage total rather quickly.
#28 keithio Apr 06, 2009 22:55:55	The argument is that the text is what matters, and the text says hellfire warlock gets +2d6 damage every class level, so you should in theory be able to continue it. It's definitely incredibly shady, and can be applied to many PRCs with varyingly broken results. If it was a full BAB class, it would be hilarious. At 3/4 BAB, it doesn't make the CO world explode. You could use it to get 14 more AC from abjurant champion, to get 18/12 casting from Ultimate Magus and persist 7th level spells, or whatever. I've never seen a thread where people argue about how RAW it is, I'm sure it must exist though. My rule of thumb is that if you have to argue that it's RAW, it isn't =p.
#29 awaken_D_M_golem Apr 07, 2009 18:11:44	but he has indicated he wanted the role of a fighter in the party. I had envisioned Fighter 8 / Weapon Master (Some reach weapon [Perhaps a huge whip?]) 7 / Dwarven Defender 15. Druid's War Puppy is a better Fighter than the Fighter. Druid is a better Fighter than the Fighter. Two for one discount. And Epic Spells !! Druid 1 / Monk 1 / Druid 2 to 20 / Fighter 2 for excellent Epic Feats / Cosmic Descryer 7 http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/cosmicDescryer.htm Remember, there's only two of you, you need casting.
#30 dr_rocktopus Apr 07, 2009 20:51:46	Warblade 20 is better than almost anything involving fighter, but that might require too much thought. Diamond mind would solve his uh.... his... domination issues, so you know, I think it'd be worthwhile.
#31 lordsurge Apr 11, 2009 14:11:44	Thanks for all the assistance folks. Any chance of 21-30 suggestions for Bardic classes? I looked through the Diamond Mind maneuvers but didn't see a mind immunity granting stance or anything, what did I miss?