I don't know a way to convince him, so we decided it would be best just to duke it out. The two of us are creating 20th level characters.
The stage will be an arena. I assume of about 100 ft across, or more.
Im here asking you about the optimal build for fighter smashing as a wizard. I can use any of the modules, he is sticking to straight up PHB.
This battle is going to drastically change the way he thinks of the fighter. :D
The question isn't are you going to beat the fighter but rather how do you want to beat the fighter and how badly you want to embarass him. I say beat the fighter at his own game with shapechange and a quickened slow.
If he thinks a fighter is going to beat a wizard then he has no business DMing since he completely does not understand 3rd edition D&D at all, seriously.
The question isn't are you going to beat the fighter but rather how do you want to beat the fighter and how badly you want to embarass him. I say beat the fighter at his own game with shapechange and a quickened slow.
I want to completely **** him.
I want to show him that he is completely wrong in saying a fighter will beat down a wizard with his warhammer.
He swears to Pelor that the fighter's awesome BAB and feats will let him utterly destroy the wizards "Low hit points and AC".
I want to beat him 3 times in a row.
The first time I want to beat him normally, like a caster would.
The second time I want to beat him by letting him attempt to kill me with his hammer, and after a few misses own him.
The third time, just to be sure it's clear, I want to beat him at being a melee fighter.
That is my goal. Mostly I want to do this to him so he will let the fighter types take things from the Tome of Battle, so they can be more balanced with me (wizard).
Im looking for feats+spell selection and order to use things.
Admittedly I have never played a 20th level wizard, but I do recognize their power and the complete suck of the pure PHB fighter by comparison.
Meh, for argument's sake max initiative, Time Stop, Gate a pair of Efreeti, use the one command you're permitted to give them as grant three Wishes (takes less than an hour so no negotiation necessary), and ask him if he genuinely wants to continue after you pulled six Wishes off of one spell... Wishes you don't have to pay more XP for... in core... by RAW...
2nd: Be a Specialist Conjuror and take the alternate class feature from the PHBII that being a conjuror allows you to access. You're now pretty much immune to him. Throw in mage armor, greater mirror image, blur, etc and laugh as he tries to somehow hit you.
3rd: Shapechange. Win.
You should have astral projection in effect, so he is actually fighting your projected image and therefore cannot kill you. Hide your real body with Leomund’s Secret Chest or some other mechanism the fighter cannot overcome. I believe that if your astral projection is brought into an antimagic field it temporarily ceases to exist, which the fighter could use to delay combat, but also makes it impossible for him to hurt you in an antimagic field.
If your astral body is destroyed or suppressed, you will awaken in your hiding place, so have some scrolls of astral projection scribed and some means of getting from the astral plane back to the arena. This makes anything the fighter can do to you a three round delay at most (one round each for astral projection, plane shift, and teleport without error, at the slowest).
Just to press home the usefulness of astral projection in the fight PhaedrusXY linked:
You should have astral projection in effect, so he is actually fighting your projected image and therefore cannot kill you. Hide your real body with Leomund’s Secret Chest or some other mechanism the fighter cannot overcome. I believe that if your astral projection is brought into an antimagic field it temporarily ceases to exist, which the fighter could use to delay combat, but also makes it impossible for him to hurt you in an antimagic field.
If your astral body is destroyed or suppressed, you will awaken in your hiding place, so have some scrolls of astral projection scribed and some means of getting from the astral plane back to the arena. This makes anything the fighter can do to you a three round delay at most (one round each for astral projection, plane shift, and teleport without error, at the slowest).
1) Planar Bind a nightmare (ahead of time preferably).
2) Get it to take you to the Ethereal Plane. Leave some guardian there.
3) Get it to take you back to the Prime with Astral Projection.
4) Repeat step 3 as often as needed.
5) Profit.
Bonus: You don't actually use charges off your real magic items like this.
I’m really looking forward to see what your DM brings to the table. :D
Incidentally, what does it take for a fighter to beat mid to high level wizards?
Real challenge is to beat lvl 20 Wizard with lvl 20 Fighter.
I’m really looking forward to see what your DM brings to the table. :D
Incidentally, what does it take for a fighter to beat mid to high level wizards?
Leadership.
Pump as much as you can UMD and CHA. Doesn't really matter what are your For and Des scores.
With the right items you should be able to cast 9th level spells without any possibility of failing.
In this way the figther *Might* win if he is lucky.
Eitherways it's just proving your point, in D&D (previous to 4th ed.) Magic > all.
The first time I want to beat him normally, like a caster would.
There are so many ways a caster can beat a fighter 'normally' this is kind of a null suggestion. You can always just pump your save DC up and dominate him. Or forcecage him. Or MDJ him. Or Gate in a Pit Fiend. Or time stop and wall of stone him on all sides. Whatever.
The second time I want to beat him by letting him attempt to kill me with his hammer, and after a few misses own him.
Ironguard. Laugh as he swings ineffectively with his metal weapon.
Timestop- Ironguard + Ghostform + Superior Invisibility. Laugh, ethereally and invisibly as he swings ineffectively with his metal weapon (and can't even hit you with his wooden ones) at the entirely wrong square.
The third time, just to be sure it's clear, I want to beat him at being a melee fighter.
Shapechange FTW.
Here are my thoughts:
On your third challenge where you want to beat him in melee, split this into three sections.
Melee-section-the-first: buff and kill him (shapechange, brambles, etc. on a staff)
Melee-section-the-second: have your familiar kill him
Melee-section-the-third: take leadership and have your Fighter 18 kill him through your use of buffs and battlefield control
Also, assume you get no rounds buffing and you'll have to do it real time. You want to win initiative. Optimize that. Consider doing it with just the PHB.
Then make a few characters that are outside of the PHB. Like a Dragonmark / Mark of the Dauntless celerity abuser, a conjurer with abrupt jaunt, an initiate of the seven fold veil, malconvoker, etc.
For the real fight though you can beat him directly via save or lose, beat him with summons, beat him with damage, beat him with enervation ... your pick.
Lets see:
Fighter 20 (human)
Str: 14
Dex: 26 (incl. Glove of Dex+6)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Cha: 8
Wis: 24 (incl. Periapt of Wisdom+6)
Feats:
Blooded (1st)
Thug (1st)
Improved Initiative (1st)
Improved Unarmed Strike (2nd)
Lucky Start (re-roll Initiative) (3rd)
Weapon Focus (4th)
Weapon Specialization (6th)
Rapid Stunning (6th)
Stunning Fist (8th)
Weapon Finess (9th)
Freezing the Lifeblood (10th)
Greater Weapon Focus (12th)
... (12th)
Power Attack (14th)
... (15th)
Quick Draw (16th)
Death Blow (18th)
... (18th)
... (20th)
Belt of Battle (+2 Ini)
Eager Armor Spikes +1 (+2 Ini)
Eager Shieldblades +1 (+2 Ini)
Eager "light weapon" of warning +1 (+7 Ini)
Lucky Eager Kistrike "light weapon" +1 (+2 Ini)
Some heavy hammer...
Boots of "bring me to you" (Big stepping, teleport, etc.)
Start of battle:
Roll Initiative: me +31 (with re-roll)
Seems like me moving first.
Somehow I teleport myself to you by meens of "boots".
Then I aktivate my belt of battle, granting me an additional full round action.
1. attack: +31 w/ called "Freezing the Lifeblood" Fort-Save-DC: 27 (I can do this twice!)
Now you are paralysed for 1d4+1 rounds.
I take the big hammer, call "coup de grace" and kill you.
End of battle.
Have a nice day, wizard...
That's tough to beat in an arena situation with no pre-buffs, core only. Otherwise, contingency or moment of prescience should handle that nicely enough. Or Anticipate Teleportation, Greater...
. A sufficient amount of silenced dimension doors would do, but it's still no fun...
...IF the mage can't make the fort save...
...IF you can hit their AC...
...IF you actually beat the init.
Actually, crit immunity probably negates freezing, so (Mithral Buckler of Heavy Fortification) FTW.
Preparation is the other thing: I kill you while you sleep, or prepare spell, or eat the food I poisoned, or...
This contest only can be an arena situation, otherwise it isn`t worth a thought!
I normally play spellcasters, too. And I know that for spellcasters everthing is about preparation! An unprepared caster is a dead caster, that's it! Spellcasters aren't (allways) GOD, even if some of you think so ;)
If the fighter can win the initiative and you are not prepared (the only way to keep the contest fair!), then you lose.
Did you read anything that’s been said about astral projection? The tactic you just described is not capable of killing the wizard. Even assuming your plan went off perfectly, the wizard would wake up on the ethereal plane (or wherever he decided would be good).
You also seem to be completely ignoring contingency. Using the craft contingent spell feat, the wizard could have a time stop set to go off immediately before he is struck by an attack. That’s an item, not a spell too, so unless magic items are disallowed there are no terms for the fight that could disallow it.
I’d like to say for the record that assuming a wizard would not have his buff spells that last all day or longer active is like assuming the fighter has not yet donned his armor.
All the initiative boosts you listed are also available to the wizard. The wizard also has access to insightful divination, a feat which grants him a +10 to initiative. I don’t think I agree with your assertion that you would probably go first.
This astral projection stuff is nice, but it's preparation! Even learning your spells is, but the hour it takes is ok for me I'll eat, clean my armor, take some extra sleeping, slip into my armor and wait for you...
Contingent spell? Wait, it's an item, I can use it too! The moment a spellcaster is within 30 ft. the contingent spell casts "antimagic field". I now just use my fist to paralyse you. Them I kill you.
Celerity? You are flat-footed, you can`t take immediate actions...
Preparation is the other thing: I kill you while you sleep, or prepare spell, or eat the food I poisoned, or...
This contest only can be an arena situation, otherwise it isn`t worth a thought!
I normally play spellcasters, too. And I know that for spellcasters everthing is about preparation! An unprepared caster is a dead caster, that's it! Spellcasters aren't (allways) GOD, even if some of you think so ;)
Uhm... an arena situation by definition requires that both participants be aware of a fight coming and therefore infers that buffs and preparations to kill/survive have been done. Both participants must be ready for combat for this to be a legitimate comparison. This doesn't mean temporary buffs (under 16+ hours), it means everything that a character would have at all times on a heavy adventure.
Oh, and your build is beat by Contingent Time Stop and Revivify.
Contingency + any of a good handful of spells = fighter never gets a meaningful action
Plus the fighter is supposed to be core. Nix half those items and a few of those feats.
Contingency + any of a good handful of spells = fighter never gets a meaningful action
Erm... the Fighter isn't supposed to be core, it's just going to be core. That's simply what the DM is apparently going to do and he'll probably change his mind.
The fighter can beat the hell out of you on the third day of "heavy adventuring", the wizard might not be even able to spice the cooked rat with a prestidigitation, because he casted his last spell a day ago, befor the fighter saved his as, all night long!
...IF the mage can't make the fort save...
...IF you can hit their AC...
...IF you actually beat the init.
Save DC 27 (twice if needed) how good can your Fort-save be without prep.
Your AC, without prep? Show me, want I can't hit.
Ini +31, what can you give me?
I know you all have tricks up your sleeves, lots of, but it is possible for the fighter to win this, so Blackinfernox should think about it. He might not think of a mithril buckler of heavy fortification for his all mighty wizard and end up with brain elsewhere.
This astral projection stuff is nice, but it's preparation! Even learning your spells is, but the hour it takes is ok for me I'll eat, clean my armor, take some extra sleeping, slip into my armor and wait for you...
Astral projection would have been in effect constantly since 17th level at the very least. You call half an hour spent 3 levels ago preparation? You spent more time waiting for your equipment to be crafted more recently.
Why would you think the wizard would spend any time preparing spells that day? If he didn’t cast any yesterday, they all carry over. He could very well have prepared spells once when he reached 20th level and never again after that. He’d still have a full compliment.
Contingent spell? Wait, it's an item, I can use it too! The moment a spellcaster is within 30 ft. the contingent spell casts "antimagic field". I now just use my fist to paralyse you. Them I kill you.
Easily countered by “the moment a fighter is within 40 feet, a contingent time stop goes off.”
Plus the fighter is supposed to be core. Nix half those items and a few of those feats.
Contingency + any of a good handful of spells = fighter never gets a meaningful action
We need not talk about a PHB fighter (who wouldn#t even have magic items) winning against an "all sources" wizard. That's stupid, isn't it.
Once again: Of cause the wizard beats the fighter, but he might loose under certain circumstances, if he isn't prepared. That's all I'm saying! The initiative monster able to paralyse the wizard is just an example how this might happen.
We need not talk about a PHB fighter (who wouldn#t even have magic items) winning against an "all sources" wizard. That's stupid, isn't it.
Once again: Of cause the wizard beats the fighter, but he might loose under certain circumstances, if he isn't prepared. That's all I'm saying! The initiative monster able to paralyse the wizard is just an example how this might happen.
Except that you're defining this in a way that isn't an arena match. When two gladiators fight or when two participants step willingly into an arena, both are prepared to the extent of what they are capable of. They are armored, geared, and weapons at ready to do combat. Therefore any scenario which involves a Wizard not having full spell slots is inherently not an arena match.
Why does this affect your logic? Because that is the situation. A Fighter and a Wizard without distraction are fully aware they are going to be fighting each other and gear to do so. They step into the arena standing 100 feet apart and do battle. Assumptions of spent spell slots are invalid just as having non-permanent spell effects are also invalid. Twenty-four hour buffs are permitted only for the reason that a caster can go about his or her daily business with them on and are therefore the equivalent of sacrificed spell slots for those effects. If the battle takes place in any manner other than two characters built to take down the other in a no-holds barred match from the initial position of being ready with a hundred foot gap and zero terrain advantage, then the match itself doesn't represent a match between the classes.
You can argue, but the bottom line is this...
The stage will be an arena. I assume of about 100 ft across, or more.
... it's an arena match. Spells are prepared, period. If they are not, then the stage isn't set because this is simply two characters duking it out with no relevance to the outside world.
Astral projection would have been in effect constantly since 17th level at the very least. You call half an hour spent 3 levels ago preparation? You spent more time waiting for your equipment to be crafted more recently.
Thought about the ethereal marauders who took a look at you chest 2 levels ago? Or the Githyanky cutting your silver cord last level?
Why would you think the wizard would spend any time preparing spells that day? If he didn’t cast any yesterday, they all carry over. He could very well have prepared spells once when he reached 20th level and never again after that. He’d still have a full compliment.
Why would you think the wizard had time to prepare spells at any point during the last 400 years?
Easily countered by “the moment a fighter is within 40 feet, a contingent time stop goes off.”
If you know about it...
We need not talk about a PHB fighter (who wouldn#t even have magic items) winning against an "all sources" wizard. That's stupid, isn't it.
Once again: Of cause the wizard beats the fighter, but he might loose under certain circumstances, if he isn't prepared. That's all I'm saying! The initiative monster able to paralyse the wizard is just an example how this might happen.
This is the challenge presented in the first post. Wizard, any sources. Fighter, PHB only.
I'm not making this up, read the first post.
... it's an arena match. Spells are prepared, period. If they are not, then the stage isn't set because this is simply two characters duking it out with no relevance to the outside world.
Then there will be no fun, the fighter will loose that match everytime you start it. This isn't against my logic, just against my sense of humor ;)
Then there will be no fun, the fighter will loose that match everytime you start it. This isn't against my logic, just against my sense of humor ;)
*chuckle* I think that's the point trying to be proved. I think that fact is why the Martial Adept classes really should be allowed in any campaign setting that isn't low-magic (those are fun, too).
Now my sense of humor is a Binder beating a Warlock by summoning the demon who has the Warlock's soul and bartering to get it back which effectively cuts the Warlock off from his power source making him a human again.
This is the challenge presented in the first post. Wizard, any sources. Fighter, PHB only.
I'm not making this up, read the first post.
Ok. I already read it. It's stupid! No need to discuss.
Cast fly, then use stupid evocation magic to bring the fighter down. He has no items, use magic missle to kill him.
1. lvl slots: magic missle
2. lvl slots: magic missle
3. lvl slots: empowered magic missle (one fly!)
4. lvl slots: maximised magic missle
5. lvl slots: quickend magic missle
6. lvl slots: empowered maximised magic missle
7. lvl slots: empowered quickend magic missle
8. lvl slots: maximised quickend magic missle
9. lvl slots: twined quickend magic missle (though Twinspell isn't core)
Maybe you should have wind wall, if he has a bow in addition to his hammer!
Ridiculous!
Thought about the ethereal marauders who took a look at you chest 2 levels ago? Or the Githyanky cutting your silver cord last level?
Sort of like the rust monsters you stumbled across yesterday.
Why would you think the wizard had time to prepare spells at any point during the last 400 years?
The same reason I think the fighter had time to buy equipment.
If you know about it...
All I need is paranoia and a vivid imagination.
Cast fly, then use stupid evocation magic to bring the fighter down. He has no items, use magic missle to kill him.
But what if the fighter has a contingent shape change set to turn him into a creature with magic immunity when he is about to be affected by a spell? Some dispels, disjunctions, and summons might be a good idea.
But what if the fighter has a contingent shape change set to turn him into a creature with magic immunity when he is about to be affected by a spell? Some dispels, disjunctions, and summons might be a good idea.
He's specifying the PHB... and only the PHB.... I mean, you have to use the crafting rules to extrapolate each and every single solitary possible item you can use. On the bright side, Boots of Expeditious Retreat anyone?
Edit: Sorry, that wasn't helpful. Basically without some sort of Contingent Spell or other item from an alternate source, the Fighter's options in a PHB battle amount to stare at the flying Wizard because you can't do anything about it.... Of course, this is assuming you can't hijack the Craft Item rules from the PHB to make something retarded as I already mentioned. I mean, it takes most people about a quarter of a second to consider Anti-Magic Field on an item to make a mobile Anti-Magic Field once those terms are defined, but one AoO later and the Wizard is free to fly away and do exactly what he said again.
Sort of like the rust monsters you stumbled across yesterday.
Well... Now I am poor. You are dead! Who won?
Ok. I already read it. It's stupid! No need to discuss.
Cast fly, then use stupid evocation magic to bring the fighter down. He has no items, use magic missle to kill him.
1. lvl slots: magic missle
2. lvl slots: magic missle
3. lvl slots: empowered magic missle (one fly!)
4. lvl slots: maximised magic missle
5. lvl slots: quickend magic missle
6. lvl slots: empowered maximised magic missle
7. lvl slots: empowered quickend magic missle
8. lvl slots: maximised quickend magic missle
9. lvl slots: twined quickend magic missle (though Twinspell isn't core)
Maybe you should have wind wall, if he has a bow in addition to his hammer!
Ridiculous!
<3 Oh my, this is awesome!
No need to use gate, I mean just use illusory pit and maddening whispers or Maw of chaos. It's just too easy.
He's specifying the PHB... and only the PHB...
Oops. You know, I’ve read that limitation a few times now, and yet I keep worrying over things the fighter can’t accomplish with just that book.
Well... Now I am poor. You are dead! Who won?
Factoring in clone or contingent true resurrection…
So, the wizard wins, if he can prepare himself! If he can't, he is a dead man! If you cut it down to the basics, a wizard can't do anthing, if he doesn't have time to sleep, prepare spells or the like. Here is the point an fighter (non-spellcaster) comes in. If you allways had the luck, that your DM didn't hit your weakness, far well.
The fighter can beat the hell out of you on the third day of "heavy adventuring", the wizard might not be even able to spice the cooked rat with a prestidigitation, because he casted his last spell a day ago, befor the fighter saved his as, all night long!
Rope Trick. Still, if there's a time constraint, a wizard will eventually be pretty much screwed.
Save DC 27 (twice if needed) how good can your Fort-save be without prep.
well, presuming a base of 14, CON will be 20 to 25. so, +11 from 6 base and +5 con.
Luckstone adds +1, a resistance cloak adds +5, so 17. That's a 50% chance already, but not a sure thing, yet.
However, most Monk skills require the target to be crittable, so a simple expenditure of a mithral buckler of heavy fortification completely negates that.
Your AC, without prep? Show me, want I can't hit.
Lessee, dex would be 20-25, so +5,
Ring +5
Aforementioned buckler +6
Bracers +8
Amulet of Natural Armor +5.
Kinda defensive, but 40(ish) already means it isn't a sure thing you hit. Especially with an unarmed strike. Can't really see an easy way to bump this to 50ish without _any_ buffs running, or spending feats.
Ini +31, what can you give me?
Probably can't match that, within core.
I know you all have tricks up your sleeves, lots of, but it is possible for the fighter to win this, so Blackinfernox should think about it. He might not think of a mithril buckler of heavy fortification for his all mighty wizard and end up with brain elsewhere.
*shrug* REALLY paranoid wizards don't leave their TK spheres unless they have a time stop running.
The only way for the fighter to have a remote chance is if the caster is completely disallowed from casting before a fight that he knows about, which would never happen.
In my experience, fighters and wizards can be equally effective. A lone wizard is a vulnerable wizard despite being 20th level.
Contingency also works (even in core), but you only get one (or two if you put one on your familiar also), so setting the proper trigger condition can be tricky. However, if you're never flat-footed, you can "cheat" and have the Contingency set to trigger when you activate an immediate action spell or magic item. So that way, you can make it go off whenever you want, even interrupting the other guy's turn, without having to guess what trigger condition to use.
However, since this is an arena match, presumably the wizard knows what's going to happen, who he's going to fight, etc. So he can prepare specifically for the fight, and have a Contingency set to go off the moment the match starts. In that case, the fighter is dead, unless you put in stupid restrictions like no permanent/24hr+ buffs, etc, which is basically the same as saying the fighter has to start naked and prone. The wizard's armor and weapons are his spells. If he doesn't get them, the fighter shouldn't get his, either.
Yeah, it's possible to threaten a 20th level wizard, even the most paranoid one, using any threat that the DM can make up. It's not really possible for a fighter 20 to beat a paranoid, well-prepared wizard in an arena match, though, if both are equally well played.
And the specific case mentioned in the OP (non-core wizard vs. core fighter) is just flat ridiculous.
For the contingency trigger, just make it: "Whenever I say the word 'boo.'" You can speak on other people's turns.
But what happens when, during donning his gear for the fight, the wizard replies to an assistant "please retrieve my boots."
Err...vulnerable to spells, monsters, and environmental conditions. Why is that so difficult to understand? At that level of play, a wizard would likely be exploring alternative planes of existence, all which can have significant threats. Wizards only have so many resources available to them, and the threats are limitless.
I've got answers to your examples posed, but the above is not predicated on what a wizard can prepare for versus a DM, the stated challenge is specifically Wizard V Fighter as players, and I'm sorry, unless the Fighter get's extremely lucky, cheats, or the wizard is played by an absolute moron, the fight is absolutely in the Wizard's favor.
But what happens when, during donning his gear for the fight, the wizard replies to an assistant "please retrieve my boots."
Then the assistant hands him his boots. Command words are very specifically described as to how they work, you have to say the EXACT word, not just a word that contains the word, or one that sounds like it.
For the contingency trigger, just make it: "Whenever I say the word 'boo.'" You can speak on other people's turns.
That's more questionably legal than what I suggested. I don't care to get into arguing why. All the crap being discussed in this thread is old and repetitive.
If the fighter can win the initiative and you are not prepared (the only way to keep the contest fair!), then you lose.
Lets see:
Fighter 20 (human)
Str: 14
Dex: 26 (incl. Glove of Dex+6)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Cha: 8
Wis: 24 (incl. Periapt of Wisdom+6)
Feats:
Blooded (1st)
Thug (1st)
Improved Initiative (1st)
Improved Unarmed Strike (2nd)
Lucky Start (re-roll Initiative) (3rd)
Weapon Focus (4th)
Weapon Specialization (6th)
Rapid Stunning (6th)
Stunning Fist (8th)
Weapon Finess (9th)
Freezing the Lifeblood (10th)
Greater Weapon Focus (12th)
... (12th)
Power Attack (14th)
... (15th)
Quick Draw (16th)
Death Blow (18th)
... (18th)
... (20th)
Belt of Battle (+2 Ini)
Eager Armor Spikes +1 (+2 Ini)
Eager Shieldblades +1 (+2 Ini)
Eager "light weapon" of warning +1 (+7 Ini)
Lucky Eager Kistrike "light weapon" +1 (+2 Ini)
Some heavy hammer...
Boots of "bring me to you" (Big stepping, teleport, etc.)
Start of battle:
Roll Initiative: me +31 (with re-roll)
Seems like me moving first.
Somehow I teleport myself to you by meens of "boots".
Then I aktivate my belt of battle, granting me an additional full round action.
1. attack: +31 w/ called "Freezing the Lifeblood" Fort-Save-DC: 27 (I can do this twice!)
Now you are paralysed for 1d4+1 rounds.
I take the big hammer, call "coup de grace" and kill you.
End of battle.
Have a nice day, wizard...
How about a character that actually has a chance in this challenge. It's an arena fight.
Preparation is the other thing: I kill you while you sleep, or prepare spell, or eat the food I poisoned, or...
This contest only can be an arena situation, otherwise it isn`t worth a thought!
Give me a break and stop fooling. Why the heck would you ever get up to a level 20 Wizard when he is resting? Good luck teleporting to his Genesis (where he only is a single round of your time, flowing time trait rocks) that has been warded with Dimensional lock in its entirety.
This astral projection stuff is nice, but it's preparation! Even learning your spells is, but the hour it takes is ok for me I'll eat, clean my armor, take some extra sleeping, slip into my armor and wait for you...
Again, don't be silly. It's not really preparation if it is always active. You need to rest too and be healed every now and then. I can just as well say the Wizard teleports to you immediately after you have encountered a Balor. And you know what? That would actually be a feasible scenario, since the Wizard can actually know what you are doing.
Contingent spell? Wait, it's an item, I can use it too! The moment a spellcaster is within 30 ft. the contingent spell casts "antimagic field". I now just use my fist to paralyse you. Them I kill you.
Good luck with that. When you are 30ft away from him, your AMF is still 20ft from the guy. Then he kills you.
Then the assistant hands him his boots. Command words are very specifically described as to how they work, you have to say the EXACT word, not just a word that contains the word, or one that sounds like it.
You roll a 1 on your detect sarcasm check. Epic fail!
You roll a 1 on your detect sarcasm check. Epic fail!
Damn...Have I ever mentioned how much I hate text as a vehicle for sarcasm?
Epic Fail.
There is the tiny thing about duel and arena rules. Sure, you can cheat, but most people will agree to the rules. If the agreed rules say no pre-cast buffs, then there are no pre-cast buffs.
People who rely upon 24 hour buffs are just asking to be walked through greater dispelling screens.
Core-only? Empowered, Maximized Enervation. Plus a quickened Tasha's Hideous Laughter afterwards just so you can do the evil overlord laugh... and then defeat him.
The one that I would like to see is the lowest level wizard to fight a level 20 fighter.
For the people arguing about "of course the wizard has all his buff spells precast":
There is the tiny thing about duel and arena rules. Sure, you can cheat, but most people will agree to the rules. If the agreed rules say no pre-cast buffs, then there are no pre-cast buffs.
People who rely upon 24 hour buffs are just asking to be walked through greater dispelling screens.
Core-only? Empowered, Maximized Enervation. Plus a quickened Tasha's Hideous Laughter afterwards just so you can do the evil overlord laugh... and then defeat him.
The one that I would like to see is the lowest level wizard to fight a level 20 fighter.
Lowest level wizard vs. Fighter lv.20 that'd be a challenge! However, I think we should not derail the thread by discussing it. (My prediction: 7.)
...
but we knew that already
Lowest level wizard vs. Fighter lv.20 that'd be a challenge! However, I think we should not derail the thread by discussing it. (My prediction: 7.)
There is alot more variability there from fighter to fighter. If he's not protected against ability damage, a Sudden Maximized Shivering Touch would take out some of them. And at the lower levels, there aren't nearly as many tricks to make sure you go first, so the fighter winning initiative and just PWNING you immediately is alot more of a threat.
At 9th the wizard can cast Lesser Planar Binding to call a Nightmare, and do the Etherealness + Astral Projection trick, if he gets to precast buffs. I think that gives him a decent advantage, since the fighter really can't kill him unless he has a way to Scry, Plane Shift, and Teleport. :P The wizard doesn't have to worry about expending charged items like wands at that point, either. So he can spend a bunch of his his cash on a (partially charged) Staff of Enervation, do the Astral Projection trick, empty it on the fighter, and not lose any charges from the real staff.
Using all sources? 1
...
but we knew that already
Ah Pun-Pun, what can't you do? The fighter could be a Pun-Pun also, though. So that's not really an answer. :P
Using all sources? 1
...
but we knew that already
Please elaborate.
I’m not saying you can do it or not. I genuinely want to know how 1lvl Wizard (all source allowed) will beat 20lvl Fighter (PHB only).
Please elaborate.
I’m not saying you can do it or not. I genuinely want to know how 1lvl Wizard (all source allowed) will beat 20lvl Fighter (PHB only).
High charisma Commoner 1 takes fighter down to dungeon because it "excites" her.. She begins undressing and tells him she wants to seduce her "prisoner"..
Fighter puts on manacles to role-play and Commoner leaves him to starve.
The end.
People who rely upon 24 hour buffs are just asking to be walked through greater dispelling screens.
There are plenty of counters to dispels, but that's kinda beside the point, as, how is the Fighter going to be dispelling? Sure UMD and wands or staffs are possible, but where is he going to get the 20-30 CL needed to even beat a 20th level wizard on a 20?
How do you get 'walked through' a greater dispelling screen?
High charisma Commoner 1 takes fighter down to dungeon because it "excites" her.. She begins undressing and tells him she wants to seduce her "prisoner"..
Fighter puts on manacles to role-play and Commoner leaves him to starve.
The end.
I'm just glad that I'm a roll-player. ;)
Please elaborate.
I’m not saying you can do it or not. I genuinely want to know how 1lvl Wizard (all source allowed) will beat 20lvl Fighter (PHB only).
I gave the answer in the post above yours. (Pun-Pun) Google it if you don't know what it is.
... it's an arena match. Spells are prepared, period. If they are not, then the stage isn't set because this is simply two characters duking it out with no relevance to the outside world.
This.
Ok. I already read it. It's stupid! No need to discuss.
Well if you think that my post is stupid, sir, I am clearly not asking for your oppinion then.
Well if you think that my post is stupid, sir, I am clearly not asking for your oppinion then.
He's saying it is stupid because there is almost no way the fighter can win, as it is presented. So if anything, it's a slam against your DM, not you. :P
Factoring in clone or contingent true resurrection…
Well then... My BSF can live happily ever after (cause he is stupid;) ). You will have to think and think and think how to trick me next;) . You might get a headache:D So I still can win
PLEASE!!!He's saying it is stupid because there is almost no way the fighter can win, as it is presented. So if anything, it's a slam against your DM, not you. :P
Oh. Well before I read past this, I apologize for my previous post.
I misunderstood :D
Well then... My BSF can live happily ever after (cause he is stupid;) ). You will have to think and think and think how to trick me next;) . You might get a headache:D So I still can win
See below for a reply to my previous nastiness.
;)
Holy smoke, seems my delivery of utter fail has arrived!
The higher they soar, the deeper they fall!;)
How about a character that actually has a chance in this challenge. It's an arena fight.
Build one and let us take part in your all mighty wisdom! The challenge is: Build a 20th lvl fighter, that can beat all those never sleeping giant tortoise shapechanged, paranoid, mad wizards, who think they have a life!
Give me a break and stop fooling. Why the heck would you ever get up to a level 20 Wizard when he is resting? Good luck teleporting to his Genesis (where he only is a single round of your time, flowing time trait rocks) that has been warded with Dimensional lock in its entirety.
Why did you say you don`t rule the world?
Again, don't be silly. It's not really preparation if it is always active. You need to rest too and be healed every now and then. I can just as well say the Wizard teleports to you immediately after you have encountered a Balor. And you know what? That would actually be a feasible scenario, since the Wizard can actually know what you are doing.
Always is permanent, your spells are just recast. And, what I said is: Without preparation the wizard is nothing! That's it! Truth!
Good luck with that. When you are 30ft away from him, your AMF is still 20ft from the guy. Then he kills you.
Yes, but I teleported right behind you...
There are plenty of counters to dispels, but that's kinda beside the point, as, how is the Fighter going to be dispelling? Sure UMD and wands or staffs are possible, but where is he going to get the 20-30 CL needed to even beat a 20th level wizard on a 20?
How do you get 'walked through' a greater dispelling screen?
Oh, that is easy. The arena staff will do it for you. The posting you are refering to told us, that in an arena fight there might be a rule against pre-buffs!
One I would want to have, if I was the fighter.
The situation is: Both are sitting in their lockerrooms, 30 minutes till they walk into the arena.
The wizard (played by player) prepares all his worldshaking spells buffing himself to Nirvana and back.
The fighter (played by DM!) looks at the ring he found last week and murmurs: "I wish he just dies and stays dead, the moment he comes into the arena!"
29 minutes later...
The fighter walks into the arena, on the opposite side the wizard enters, grapping his chest, falling to the ground, dead. All his trick mysteriously failing.
Wish is so silly mighty, if the DM is on your side;)
Oh, that is easy. The arena staff will do it for you. The posting you are refering to told us, that in an arena fight there might be a rule against pre-buffs!
One I would want to have, if I was the fighter.
then one I would want as a Wizard is sheated weapon and armor not donned.
then it's ok
then one I would want as a Wizard is sheated weapon and armor not donned.
then it's ok
If you don`t prepare spells that morning ;) That would be the same! By the way, a fighter needs no armor or weapon to kill you. I would like to see the wizard do the same without spells or equipment ;)
Oh and gimme one last chance: Fighter beats wizard!
The situation is: Both are sitting in their lockerrooms, 30 minutes till they walk into the arena.
The wizard (played by player) prepares all his worldshaking spells buffing himself to Nirvana and back.
The fighter (played by DM!) looks at the ring he found last week and murmurs: "I wish he just dies and stays dead, the moment he comes into the arena!"
29 minutes later...
The fighter walks into the arena, on the opposite side the wizard enters, grapping his chest, falling to the ground, dead. All his trick mysteriously failing.
Wish is so silly mighty, if the DM is on your side;)
You mean he falls over dead, triggers the Contingent Greater Dispel Magic made at a +24 from a Church Inquisitor to dispel all effects targeting him that he wasn't directly responsible for and the Contingent Revivify from the same source thus negating the Wish which has to remain active (therefore eligible to be dispelled) to keep him from returning to life after which the Wizard gets back up only one-tenth the way through his Contingent Spells.
Someone would probably say I'm being a douche about it, but sadly we had someone do that when we were doing a six-man free for all arena match. Coincidently, he won... despite being the first, second, and third to die.
You mean he falls over dead, triggers the Contingent Greater Dispel Magic made at a +34 from a Church Inquisitor to dispel all effects targeting him that he wasn't directly responsible for and the Contingent Revivify from the same source thus negating the Wish which has to remain active (therefore eligible to be dispelled) to keep him from returning to life after which the Wizard gets back up only one-tenth the way through his Contingent Spells.
Someone would probably say I'm being a douche about it, but sadly we had someone do that when we were doing a six-man free for all arena match. Coincidently, he won... despite being the first, second, and third to die.
No, this wouldn't happen, because the wish would have destroyed all possibilities for you to stand up again, because the DM said so ;)
That is purely abitrary, so you can't do anything against it! DM casts: Evil overlord laughter:D :D :D
then one I would want as a Wizard is sheated weapon and armor not donned.
then it's ok
Not much of a problem. In this fight, armor is going to be nothing but a body slot to stack enchantments on.
No, this wouldn't happen, because the wish would have destroyed all possibilities for you to stand up again, because the DM said so ;)
That is purely abitrary, so you can't do anything against it! DM casts: Evil overlord laughter:D :D :D
*chuckle* And the player casts... The Rules! You can't screw the rules, you don't have green hair! Yeah... bad internet reference, but I think it's funny.
Anyway, because it's an arena match, the DM must be impartial and stringently follow all rules or loosely follow to the same extent. Thus the point of seeing which will win in combat. B) Hopefully the DM will allow ToB stuff once it's done so the melee characters have more to work with.
Build one and let us take part in your all mighty wisdom! The challenge is: Build a 20th lvl fighter, that can beat all those never sleeping giant tortoise shapechanged, paranoid, mad wizards, who think they have a life!
Barring TO, I can't, which was my entire point.
Why did you say you don`t rule the world?
Why would a level 20 Wizard not have a Genesis of his own? Its benefits are so immense that there, simply put, is no point not having one.
Always is permanent, your spells are just recast. And, what I said is: Without preparation the wizard is nothing! That's it! Truth!
A Wizard can have all the buffs he needs on at all times, literally at all times. Frankly, Shapechange and Contingency are all he needs (though having a Weapon of legacy with the Cunning ability can easily contribute to the overkill) and those can be kept on at all times. Contingency lasts for days and Shapechange's duration is easy to prolong. Caster level 20, then use Rainbow falls to triple the duration and then use a rod to extend it. That's already 1200 minutes, which equals to 20 hours. Use Spell enhancer or Ioun stone, or UMD Beads of karma. Alternatively, prepare two Shapechanges. Moment of prescience is a decent way of gaining +25 to initiative as well, so even if the Wizard needs to roll for initiative against you, he will win.
Initiative score could be: 25 (Moment of prescience)+2 (Eager)+5 (Nerveskitter)+2 (Bracer's of the hunter)+2 (Belt of battle) = 36 without dexterity modifier or stacking Eager enchantments.
Yes, but I teleported right behind you...
Through his Extended Greater Anticipate teleport?
Also, why the heck should the Fighter have any preparation, such as acquisition of magic weapons, curing his old wounds and having any magical items at all?
Sorry Mr. Fighter, did you say you had 27 str, and 23 dex, con, int, wis, AND cha??
That really is quite impressive, perhaps you'll need a 3rd level one spell. Think you might need a little time to get this massive load of spells out? Okay...umm...fly? How far did you say you can throw that battle axe? Oooh, you have a bow eh? I think I got a spell somewhere in this bag for you....deflect arrows was it? downdraft below you extended?Look, fighter1-8>wizard 1-8, fighter 9+
No, this wouldn't happen, because the wish would have destroyed all possibilities for you to stand up again, because the DM said so ;)
That is purely abitrary, so you can't do anything against it! DM casts: Evil overlord laughter:D :D :D
Does the ignore function still work? Obvious troll is obvious.
Read my lips: A wizard without preparation is nothing! You always talk of this wizard having precast everything, but in an real arena fight he might not be allowed to have any spells precast. Permanent or not, they will be dispeled, all of the, then you go in, then you roll initiative, then the fighter goes first, the you might have lost.
The Core Collesium nerfs casters, and so did another arena I used to play in (Rustmonster). Both of them started characters at 1st level. The casters still owned everything, for the most part. Yes, the fighter types sometimes won, but everyone realized that the casters won more often overall, and were more powerful. That's why they had to nerf them. This is at levels 1-3. At the higher levels, it only gets worse.
Oh, and they always started out with no buffs at all about 100 feet apart. There were obstacles in the way on most Rustmonster arenas, so that you couldn't just charge and kill the guy in the first round. That's about all it took for the casters to have the advantage. The only chance fighter types have is if they win initiative, the caster has no buffs cast, and the fighter has a clear line of charge and can outright kill the caster with it. At the higher levels, this just isn't realistic at all because all smart casters walk around 24/7 buffed with some kind of "get out of jail free" card(s).
I don't have the link handy, but a month or so ago I left a thread called debuffzards. Basically a wizard that will drop 26 of your fighter's strength with level 1 spells in 1 round. No tricks, just ray of enfeeblement. I actually used a sorcerer, but its the same difference, should be able to drop about 22 of any attribute you prepare a spell for. No pre-cast spells, or preperation other then 2 level one spells, one quickened I think.
Sorry Mr. Fighter, did you say you had 27 str, and 23 dex, con, int, wis, AND cha??
Look, fighter1-8>wizard 1-8, fighter 9+
Uh... ToB is the only thing that comes to mind to beat that build.... Iron Heart Surge. Pick an effect. It's over. No save or check.
Does the ignore function still work? Obvious troll is obvious.
This. This entire thread is Epic Fail. By the way, Wishing someone dead would allow a save of DC 19 + Int or Cha, so the save DC is likely made of Suck and Fail since it's a BSF casting it. Good job wasting 5k XP on nothing though.
The Fighter is that guy you only let on the team because you feel sorry for him. Sometimes you might make an arrangement with the other team to let him score a touchdown, but really he's just looking busy and deluding himself if he thinks he's doing something meaningful.
Now, raise your hand if you know such a guy.
If you think such a guy could match up to say... Marshall Faulk keep your hand raised.
This thread is about That Guy vs Marshall Faulk.
Discuss.
:D ;) :P :embarrass 
Maybe then you understand my posting!
By the way: Some people should read page 4 of the player's handbook and the last sentence before "Character Creation" on page 6.
Look at the reason
This entire thread is Epic Fail.
Haha, it was not my intention to cause such a ruckus.
My bad
First- He'll probably call shinanigins on you using Summoned creatures saying: "They beat me, not you." (Sad yes, but I've seen it happen).
Secondly- you should try and only use Core stuff- core spells, core feats, core classes,
If you use wizard stuff from other splat books that's a good way to get that stuff banned and having the DM believe "Splat books are broken".
Lastly, You should also stick to one wizard build and allow him to rebuild (if he chooses) every round.
Just my 2 cents. Your not just trying to beat him, your trying to prove a point. Just trying make sure you get it across.
Edit: Just re-read the first post about the fighter going phb only.. wow. Also Leadership probably falls under the same idea as summoned creatures.
Hey, what about the other thread ?!
Which one? There's about 9,000 others to choose from. :P
Uh... ToB is the only thing that comes to mind to beat that build.... Iron Heart Surge. Pick an effect. It's over. No save or check.
only 2 problems with that. 1) its multiple spells, you'd have to recover it and use it twice each round to prevent that, not to mention if the wiz goes for the fighter's low int score, he can't even use it, if he drops dex or strength, they're on the floor, round wasted standing up, so they do it again
2)wasn't this core wizards/fighters only? Doesn't matter though, as stated above
Ok the DM requested that we use core books only. Im fine with that, as it is his rule in our campaign as well and will only further prove my point.
Also, I have 685k gp to spend on magic items, what do you suggest I get and for what purpse?
If you can also list price of the items. Core only please, as per his rule.
And what spells aside from gate, contingency, time stop, fly, and polymorph do you suggest?
Update.
Ok the DM requested that we use core books only. Im fine with that, as it is his rule in our campaign as well and will only further prove my point.
Also, I have 685k gp to spend on magic items, what do you suggest I get and for what purpse?
If you can also list price of the items. Core only please, as per his rule.
And what spells aside from gate, contingency, time stop, fly, and polymorph do you suggest?
Will he permit Item Creation rules? If so it opens up a lot of options... especially for a Wizard. In the meantime, just do a Bag of Suffering for comedic value. Shove twenty of every alchemical item in a Bag of Holding then turn it inside out over him. He'll eventually roll a few 1's after the Stonecutting Acid eats through the ground forcing him to take 20d6 falling damage. *chuckle*
I'm kidding about the Bag of Suffering, BTW. It's funny, but impractical.
What winternacht is saying is that a fighter 20 is capable of defeating a commoner 20. Good job fighter.
You mean a Commoner 20 with a good Will save. ;)
Update.
Ok the DM requested that we use core books only. Im fine with that, as it is his rule in our campaign as well and will only further prove my point.
Also, I have 685k gp to spend on magic items, what do you suggest I get and for what purpse?
If you can also list price of the items. Core only please, as per his rule.
And what spells aside from gate, contingency, time stop, fly, and polymorph do you suggest?
Maximize Init, DEX, INT and saves.
If the fighter isn't prepared, Maximized Empowered Enervation + Quickened Enervation means you're facing a, perhaps 10th level fighter who can't make their saving throw... but that's outside of time stop.
Outside that, take your pick, Gate in Balors, Solars or Dragons, use Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Sphere(reverse gravity doesn't affect inside the sphere, so if you make the sphere above the fighter, cast reverse gravity on the spot, means he'll be bouncing up and down, 'til he fails a save. Flight negates this, though.), or the earlier turtling up trick, or Forcecage+Cloudkill (kills anything alive and not poison immune.)
Simply starting with a Disjunction wipes out all of the fighter's gear, too.
Maximize Init, DEX, INT and saves.
If the fighter isn't prepared, Maximized Empowered Enervation + Quickened Enervation means you're facing a, perhaps 10th level fighter who can't make their saving throw... but that's outside of time stop.
Outside that, take your pick, Gate in Balors, Solars or Dragons, use Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Sphere(reverse gravity doesn't affect inside the sphere, so if you make the sphere above the fighter, cast reverse gravity on the spot, means he'll be bouncing up and down, 'til he fails a save. Flight negates this, though.), or the earlier turtling up trick, or Forcecage+Cloudkill (kills anything alive and not poison immune.)
Simply starting with a Disjunction wipes out all of the fighter's gear, too.
Such a DM will probably insist on playing the called creatures himself and have them do stupid things like ignore the task, attack in melee, or whatever.
Such a DM will probably insist on playing the called creatures himself and have them do stupid things like ignore the task, attack in melee, or whatever.
Anything that takes less than twenty rounds requires no negotiation of any kind and all commands must be obeyed. :D Thus the two Efreeti who grant 3 wishes in 4 rounds each actually being possible, though broken. Not to mention that a 20th level scroll with a 9th level spell is 4500 GP (Caster Level * Spell Level * 25) and XP can be compensated at 5 GP per XP giving the Scroll of Gate at 20th level a cost of 9500 GP and Time Stop only 4500 GP. This is in addition to the fact that any Magic Item under 10000 GP can be wished for leaving an infinite loop of Time Stops, Gates, and Wishes possible for exactly 1000 XP according to the Core rule books.
But for a serious suggestion, use the Scroll formula to supplement your spells per day and save your preparations for any Metamagic you might have/need. Polymorph is still a kick in the pants for him and if you get your UMD check up you can Divine Power yourself to stand toe to toe with him.
Edit: Sorry, I've probably killed the Efreeti/wish cycle by now. I just want to emphasize that that ridiculous load of bullocks is entirely Core.
Update.
Ok the DM requested that we use core books only. Im fine with that, as it is his rule in our campaign as well and will only further prove my point.
Also, I have 685k gp to spend on magic items, what do you suggest I get and for what purpse?
If you can also list price of the items. Core only please, as per his rule.
And what spells aside from gate, contingency, time stop, fly, and polymorph do you suggest?
Not polymorph. Shapechange. Also, Prismatic Sphere is pretty nasty. Did you read the link I provided on the first page?
I have a strategy I was working up for JobieJones' thread, but due to rules added later, it probably won't work. So I'll just leave it here for you.
1) Make sure you go first. A contingency should work for this. Use it to Plane Shift to the Ethereal.
2) When your turn comes, Shapechange into a Choker, and use your second standard action to cast a Maximized (via Greater Magic Rod) Time Stop.
Use your 5 free rounds of two standard actions + 1 swift action each to do the following:
2a) Plane Shift back to the material, and Teleport back to the fighter.
2b) Put a Forcecage around the fighter (barred version). Open a gate to a lava pit in the elemental Plane of Fire above the force cage, so that lava will pour down on top of him.
2c) Shapechange into a beholder, and aim your antimagic cone at the fighter.
2d-e) Chit chat with your familiar, call your mom, etc.
3) Watch the fighter be burned to death, suffocated, and buried under tons of molten lava while stuck inside a Forecage in an AMF.