2nd Level Divine Spell at 1st level? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 HeirRaktus Oct 27, 2011 11:19:50	I know there are ways to get an arcane spell caster a second level spell at 1st level, but is there any way to do so for a 1st level character to get a 2nd level Divine spell? The way cannot use Taint, nor any material from UA/BoVD/BoED or any setting specific material.
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 27, 2011 11:30:40	Please tell us the whole story. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... There may be ways for specific spells, and depending on what you want, a Krau illumian might do the trick. But I need to know what you're trying to do to be sure.
#3 HeirRaktus Oct 27, 2011 11:35:06	Well, thats pretty much all of the story, lol. DM says we can use any book except the three I listed in my first book and any setting specific material. We can also use Dragon/Dungeon Magazine material as well. If my end goal is the concern... I'm trying to make a character that can qualify for the Walker of the Wastes PrC at level 1 and thus be able to start it at level 2. Walker of the Wastes is a PrC from Sandstorm, pg 89. It requires the feat Heat Endurance as well as the ability to cast at least three spells from the Sand or Thirst domains as Divine spells.
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 27, 2011 12:06:07	Krau will not work that way: the requirements say three separate domain spells, not 2nd level divine spells. There are feats in Dragon that give super theurge flexibility. Combine with Precocious Apprentice and it might work. Another thought is Versatile Spellcasting in Races of the Dragon. You need to cast spontaneously to do it, but clerics already do that with heals or Domain Spontaneity. The feat lets you expend 2 slots of one level to cast a spell you know from the next one. Clerics know all of their spells, so...
#5 HeirRaktus Oct 27, 2011 12:12:41	Krau will not work that way: the requirements say three separate domain spells, not 2nd level divine spells. Not usre what that means... If I take both thirst and sand, I'll have two. Then, through means I'm reaching for here, if I can grab a second level spell I could grab Desicate. Desicate is on the normal cleric spell list while at the same time being in the Sand Domain. Precocious Apprentice wont work as it says Arcane spells and these need to be Divine. I think you might have something with Versatile Spellcasting though. I'll have to see if I can pass that by the DM, as the req is only the ability to cast and not the power to cast it whenever.
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 27, 2011 13:08:08	Krau illumians can cast spells with an augmented spell level. In fact, if they have Improved Sigil (krau), sanctum spell, and Militia (flaws needed), they can enter Eldritch Knight as their second level. Versatile doesn't say you have to be high enough level. You do need the slots and to know the spell. I meant using something like Southern Magician and Precocious Apprentice to cast an arcane spell from those domains as a divine spell. There are probably other theurge feats there that would do the trick. Likewise, you might be able to.cheese it with Anyspell.
#7 HeirRaktus Oct 27, 2011 13:30:25	Well, Southern Magician is from a campaign setting specific book isn't it? So I can't use that... I think, whatever method I use, it needs to be done only using one feat, as the other would have to be Heat Endurance.
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 27, 2011 14:50:50	I keep saying LIKE Southern Magician. Dragon WILL have other (obscene) theurge feats that may allow it. (Theurge = multiple casting classes poured together). See if your DM allows Versatile Caster to let a sorcerer apply Still Spell to his highest level spell known. (The feat is silent about if it works.) If he does, you can use it here, as you give up two 1st level slots to cast a 2nd that you know, and a clerics spells known are the same as his spell list, and that list is augmented by domains.
#9 ikildkenny Oct 27, 2011 15:18:02	actually a silented Spell is still a spell of his original level ... the "classic" trick is to use a favored soul with versatile spellcaster and heighten spell ... make one 2nd lvl spellslot and heighten any of your spells ... on the other hand ... it won't work with your requirements ... since the only way to get 3 spells from the said two domains, you will need "real" 2nd lvl spells ... and there is no trick, that could get you that on lvl 1 ... lvl 2 on the other hand is a different story - you could (as mentioned above) use southerm magician to make you precautious apprentice spell a divine spell ... but that is as elegant as it gets ... my personal recommendation would be to take 3 lvls of cleric regardless ... there is no simpler/nicer/more elegant/more likely to be allowed way to get into walker of the waste ...
#10 Krusk Oct 28, 2011 9:27:47	Ask the DM to just waive that requirement. Its not like getting into that class at level 2 breaks the game in half. It gets a couple of neat things, and then makes you undead. Letting people into it at second level shouldn't be a huge deal.
#11 sirpercival Oct 28, 2011 9:43:21	Or, adapt Precocious Apprentice to be divine. That way you still have to spend a feat, so the DM might be more accepting.
#12 thugsb Oct 29, 2011 9:04:42	I'm in favour of games where you waive all PrCl requirements. If I want a 10th level Holy Liberator, it hardly makes sense I'm Fighter2 Ranger2 Monk2 HL4. That doesn't make me much of a HL - just minority HL. It makes more sense for me to simply be HL10. Why can't all PrCl be like core classes? Obviously there would be a few specific balance issues, but it really wouldn't make a huge amount of difference to the game. And I'm not suggesting all games are like this. But it makes for a different flavoured campaign, and allows some neat combinations.
#13 Tempest_Stormwind Oct 29, 2011 15:31:40	I'm in favour of games where you waive all PrCl requirements. If I want a 10th level Holy Liberator, it hardly makes sense I'm Fighter2 Ranger2 Monk2 HL4. That doesn't make me much of a HL - just minority HL. It makes more sense for me to simply be HL10. Why can't all PrCl be like core classes? Obviously there would be a few specific balance issues, but it really wouldn't make a huge amount of difference to the game. And I'm not suggesting all games are like this. But it makes for a different flavoured campaign, and allows some neat combinations. Words do not exist for how strongly I oppose this. First, not all Holy Liberators need levels in a class named "holy liberator". Second, the mechanical abilities of prestige classes are often too powerful if they were available at the levels you're speaking about. This really WOULD make a huge difference in the balance level of the game, especially where spellcasters are concerned. (Sublime Chord is perhaps the most powerful example I can think of on short notice, but Shadowcraft Mage bears special mention as well.) Third, prestige class benefits are often balanced out by drawbacks. Good luck getting into Fochluchan Lyrist or Magelord without giving up caster levels, for instance. I could go on, but I'd rather not at this point. HeirRakus, the simplest mechanical suggestion here is to ask your DM how Versatile Casting works with Heighten Spell and your highest-level spell slots. (I mistakenly said Still Spell earlier; I meant Heighten. I can't edit things on my phone.) This method is entirely within the rules, and it does not require you to beg him to houserule a patch for you and you alone.
#14 Krusk Nov 01, 2011 10:32:17	Words do not exist for how strongly I oppose this. Thats interesting, I am really in favor of this idea. Maybe not out of the box, but thats why thugsb said "Specific balance issues". I would say that all prestige classes could have their entry requirements thinned out. Id also say that most could have them waived entirely. SRD Alone. Arcane Archer Show Race Elf or half-elf. Base Attack Bonus +6. Feats Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow). Spells Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells. They want to be an arcane archer. They will take those feats anyway provided they are good. Drop the spells requirement. Say "This class doesn't give casting, you have to have some from somewhere first". With all that in mind you still can't get in before 7th level. I'd drop it to bab+4 honestly. Its powers aren't paticulalrly so good you need to wait till 7th level before they are approperoate. 7th level assumes you can jump between multiple books and can get a +1BAB/+1 casting class core you have to wait till 8th. These changes mean you don't have to dumpsterdive around
#15 Tempest_Stormwind Nov 01, 2011 14:12:45	Krusk, he said that all the prereqs would be waived and all PrCs treated as base classes, i.e. a 10th level character who is Holy Liberator 10. That is a very different proposition from what you're suggesting, which is simpler prereqs by and large. (I would be inclined to agree with you there in many cases, especially the poorly-designed DMG PrCs by and large.) However, I prefer revising those PrCs, keeping the theme but ditching the mechanics for ones along the same line as late 3.5 PrCs. My own version of the Arcane Archer has been retuned for 6th-level entry as well (i.e. 5 base class levels before taking your first level of AA), although I did alter the class somewhat for a different role. Likewise, my Dwarven Defender is quite a bit more mobile, and designed for 6th-level entry as well. Your approach seems to be the other school of thought - keep the PrCs the same but set the prereqs accordingly. Here's my thoughts on your suggestions: Arcane Archer: Agreed wholeheartedly given the class as we see it. The BAB change certainly fixes ONE dumpster-dive problem while introducing another (see below; it's minimal here though), and your change may actually make it warlock-compatible, which I think is an interesting possibility. (See my note below.) Archmage: Pretty much in agreement here with one caveat: I despise full-casting PrCs but can't think of any reason why an "archmage" shouldn't be one. 5th or 6th level spells would be my choice in an ideal world, where all caster PrCs followed the psionic model (i.e. give up a level of advancement at 1st, at least, to gain all your snazzy class features), but since the majority of caster PrCs are essentially super-gestalts anyway ("Yeah, you keep progressing everything that matters as a wizard AND you gain these cool features too!"), I don't think even 6th is plausible. Granted, the archmage is no Incantrix, but still... Assassin: If you add in a few caveats to how you kill the target, then sure, I can see where you're coming from. A simple example would include "without being detected". (Then again, it's no secret I'm a fan of Assassin's Creed, so perhaps that's my bias showing.) However, it basically amounts to a rogue with spells, which is strictly better than the core rogue, which is why I think it needs SOME prerequisite. Dragon Disciple: Hey, it was useful in a few very select circumstances, so I wouldn't be averse to retaining the Speak Draconic and minimum skill rank requirements just to prevent it from giving obscene ability score bonuses at levels far before you could expect good duration buff spells or +4 ability score gear. Blackguard: I'm not following on "rejigger its spells". Personally, I'd drop the blackguard altogether and just tell players to take levels of Paladin of Tyranny, with a sidebar on falling paladins and paladin redemption to allow for the assorted paladins to switch forms (i.e. when your level 10 paladin falls, instead of taking levels of Blackguard and trading in paladin levels, you'd be a weak-ass paladin for a while until you got an Atonement or something and switched to a 10th level paladin of tyranny). This gives you a way to handle first-level blackguards without even needing to salvage that awful class. Duelist: Sadly, I'm forced to agree in general. Realistically I'd prefer to roll it in with the swashbuckler and try to salvage the archetype from both weaksauce classes that tried it. Dwarven Defender: Aelrynith will take issue with this - in his words, it's the* tank PrC. You don't take it for Defensive Stance, you take it for +5 AC, very good DR/-, Uncanny Dodge, and Trap Sense all in the same class, which also has full base attack, d12 HD, and two good saves (one of which is Will, traditionally a fighter weak spot). That's actually a really good chassis, although it is strictly passive. People see Defensive Stance and get locked up on it, just like they see Frenzy and ignore Supreme Power Attack. Here, it's still too good at low levels, mostly for the DR. That said, see my note on it below. Eldritch Knight: Realistically this class is always used for padding in gish builds while they build up prereqs for something else. Dropping the prereqs would only make it easier at that role, meaning everyone can go Wiz1/EK 5 to qualify for most of the really good classes with minimal CL loss, essentially dropping the core drawback to gishes. (EK actually already can be entered at level 2 (i.e. as your second character level), but doing so is very hard and requires a specific race and flaws, and doesn't get you that much beyond the Battle Sorcerer). I'd usually ditch it in general in favor of duskblades if people want swords and spells at lower levels rather than dropping prereqs as a result. Heirophant: I've seen it used in exactly one circumstance, and that's used pretty much solely for CL boosts. Normally, about 80% of cleric PrCs are never played anyway - I seem to remember someone once got a CO award for using Evangelist in a build, for instance - but that's more a matter of having better options available. I don't think removing prereqs is the way to go here - I think hitting every divine PrC across the board with a psionics-style CL hit would be the best way to go about it. But I digress. Horizon Walker: No, it isn't trash. The horizon walker is deceptively good, albeit overshadowed outside of core. Full base attack, only 1 hp/level less than a fighter, and decent skills should be enough to make anyone take notice, especially because the feat prereq can be bypassed easily with fighter or ranger levels, and some of the PrC abilities (especially Shifting terrain mastery) are still damn good. Your change would move Shifting to character level 5, amongst other things; at-will (with brief cooldown) party-wide Dimension Door is downright gamebreaking at those levels unless you give every basic city anti-teleportation resources. Loremaster: Realistically I would agree with you, especially in light of the Archivist. However, again, I would favor beefing it up over canning the prereqs (if for no other reason than avoiding potential gamebreaking synergies introduced by prereq-free dip-friendly PRCs). It's more a failure of the class to capture the feel of a master of lore mechanically, than a failure of setting appropriate prerequisites for its abilities. Mystic Theurge: You underrate the theurge, I think. Look at the theurge classes that came later that actually got people excited (most notably the Ultimate Magus, but also the Arcane Heirophant). What the theurge needs is synergistic class features, not lower prereqs (which make it ridiculously dip-happy). Shadowdancer: You're dramatically underrating Summon Shadow (getting a 3HD shadow at level 3 is downright devastating - the only reliable low-level defense against an incorporeal, undead foe that cannot be turned is Magic Missile, and low levels is exactly when you don't have a lot of those spells! To say nothing about an incorporeal spy that's sentient and able to speak to you.), not to mention getting rogue special abilities at half the required level. The class should get a slight boost to match the prereqs, not the other way around. (Personally, I'd give it Tome of Battle advancement in Shadow Hand.) Thaumaturgist: I'd keep Spell Focus. See, while it isn't all that useful on its own, it's the cost that makes Augment Summoning less of a no-brainer for summoner characters. Thaumaturgists get Augment Summoning for free. See the point? Removing prereqs just makes these all dip-happy selections that ends up increasing the dumpster-diving problem in the long run, though - unless your defining trait is "To play a blackguard" or something, you're going to shop around to see what works for you. (Case in point: Spellsword 1 in every single gish build. Essentially no prereqs to speak of, and everyone takes one level of it for +1 attack and +1 CL). * My version of the arcane archer is a little different: I give it slight casting advancement, full caster level advancement, Warlock compatibility, and limited martial maneuvers. Despite this, it still plays fundamentally like a mystic archer. I did drop the elf requirement, although elves and half-elves do get a few other subtle benefits throughout the rest of the class. I'll be happy to share it once its finished. I'm working on a masters' thesis right now, so it's hard to find development time. The odd bit is, I didn't read the Pathfinder Arcane Archer until after I'd written it, and we both honed in on more or less the same design space. Check that out for another interesting take on the class.
#16 Krusk Nov 02, 2011 10:37:26	I made that post in all of 15 min, so there are bound to be things I overlooked. Shadowdancer create shadows being a good one. Horizon walker - I really like the class too. All trash in reference to its pre-reqs. Dimension door every couple of rounds seems approperiate for level 5/6/7 ish. In general dropping prereqs is nothing but a power up, because people aren't forced to take crap feats, and wait until they are this tall to get in. Thats where someone puts some specific thought into each one and redefines them. Also Ael disagrees with a lot of what I say, so him loving the DD is no suprise. Blackguard - Rejigger its spells. Basically totally rework them so they are more like a bards. Yes you should just play a paladin of tyranny, but I was going through revising pre-reqs, not saying which of these should be cut in general. (see duelist)

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

HeirRaktus

Oct 27, 2011 11:19:50

I know there are ways to get an arcane spell caster a second level spell at 1st level, but is there any way to do so for a 1st level character to get a 2nd level Divine spell?

The way cannot use Taint, nor any material from UA/BoVD/BoED or any setting specific material.

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 27, 2011 11:30:40

Please tell us the whole story.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

There may be ways for specific spells, and depending on what you want, a Krau illumian might do the trick. But I need to know what you're trying to do to be sure.

HeirRaktus

Oct 27, 2011 11:35:06

Well, thats pretty much all of the story, lol. DM says we can use any book except the three I listed in my first book and any setting specific material. We can also use Dragon/Dungeon Magazine material as well.

If my end goal is the concern... I'm trying to make a character that can qualify for the Walker of the Wastes PrC at level 1 and thus be able to start it at level 2. Walker of the Wastes is a PrC from Sandstorm, pg 89. It requires the feat Heat Endurance as well as the ability to cast at least three spells from the Sand or Thirst domains as Divine spells.

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 27, 2011 12:06:07

Krau will not work that way: the requirements say three separate domain spells, not 2nd level divine spells.

There are feats in Dragon that give super theurge flexibility. Combine with Precocious Apprentice and it might work.

Another thought is Versatile Spellcasting in Races of the Dragon. You need to cast spontaneously to do it, but clerics already do that with heals or Domain Spontaneity. The feat lets you expend 2 slots of one level to cast a spell you know from the next one. Clerics know all of their spells, so...

HeirRaktus

Oct 27, 2011 12:12:41

Krau will not work that way: the requirements say three separate domain spells, not 2nd level divine spells.

Not usre what that means... If I take both thirst and sand, I'll have two. Then, through means I'm reaching for here, if I can grab a second level spell I could grab Desicate. Desicate is on the normal cleric spell list while at the same time being in the Sand Domain.

Precocious Apprentice wont work as it says Arcane spells and these need to be Divine. I think you might have something with Versatile Spellcasting though. I'll have to see if I can pass that by the DM, as the req is only the ability to cast and not the power to cast it whenever.

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 27, 2011 13:08:08

Krau illumians can cast spells with an augmented spell level. In fact, if they have Improved Sigil (krau), sanctum spell, and Militia (flaws needed), they can enter Eldritch Knight as their second level.

Versatile doesn't say you have to be high enough level. You do need the slots and to know the spell.

I meant using something like Southern Magician and Precocious Apprentice to cast an arcane spell from those domains as a divine spell. There are probably other theurge feats there that would do the trick.

Likewise, you might be able to.cheese it with Anyspell.

HeirRaktus

Oct 27, 2011 13:30:25

Well, Southern Magician is from a campaign setting specific book isn't it? So I can't use that... I think, whatever method I use, it needs to be done only using one feat, as the other would have to be Heat Endurance.

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 27, 2011 14:50:50

I keep saying LIKE Southern Magician. Dragon WILL have other (obscene) theurge feats that may allow it. (Theurge = multiple casting classes poured together).

See if your DM allows Versatile Caster to let a sorcerer apply Still Spell to his highest level spell known. (The feat is silent about if it works.) If he does, you can use it here, as you give up two 1st level slots to cast a 2nd that you know, and a clerics spells known are the same as his spell list, and that list is augmented by domains.

ikildkenny

Oct 27, 2011 15:18:02

actually a silented Spell is still a spell of his original level ...

the "classic" trick is to use a favored soul with versatile spellcaster and heighten spell ...
make one 2nd lvl spellslot and heighten any of your spells ...

on the other hand ... it won't work with your requirements ...

since the only way to get 3 spells from the said two domains, you will need "real" 2nd lvl spells ... and there is no trick, that could get you that on lvl 1 ...

lvl 2 on the other hand is a different story - you could (as mentioned above) use southerm magician to make you precautious apprentice spell a divine spell ... but that is as elegant as it gets ...

my personal recommendation would be to take 3 lvls of cleric regardless ... there is no simpler/nicer/more elegant/more likely to be allowed way to get into walker of the waste ...

#10

Krusk

Oct 28, 2011 9:27:47

Ask the DM to just waive that requirement. Its not like getting into that class at level 2 breaks the game in half. It gets a couple of neat things, and then makes you undead. Letting people into it at second level shouldn't be a huge deal.

#11

sirpercival

Oct 28, 2011 9:43:21

Or, adapt Precocious Apprentice to be divine. That way you still have to spend a feat, so the DM might be more accepting.

#12

thugsb

Oct 29, 2011 9:04:42

I'm in favour of games where you waive all PrCl requirements. If I want a 10th level Holy Liberator, it hardly makes sense I'm Fighter2 Ranger2 Monk2 HL4. That doesn't make me much of a HL - just minority HL. It makes more sense for me to simply be HL10. Why can't all PrCl be like core classes?

Obviously there would be a few specific balance issues, but it really wouldn't make a huge amount of difference to the game.

And I'm not suggesting all games are like this. But it makes for a different flavoured campaign, and allows some neat combinations.

#13

Tempest_Stormwind

Oct 29, 2011 15:31:40

I'm in favour of games where you waive all PrCl requirements. If I want a 10th level Holy Liberator, it hardly makes sense I'm Fighter2 Ranger2 Monk2 HL4. That doesn't make me much of a HL - just minority HL. It makes more sense for me to simply be HL10. Why can't all PrCl be like core classes?

Obviously there would be a few specific balance issues, but it really wouldn't make a huge amount of difference to the game.

And I'm not suggesting all games are like this. But it makes for a different flavoured campaign, and allows some neat combinations.

Words do not exist for how strongly I oppose this.

First, not all Holy Liberators need levels in a class named "holy liberator".

Second, the mechanical abilities of prestige classes are often too powerful if they were available at the levels you're speaking about. This really WOULD make a huge difference in the balance level of the game, especially where spellcasters are concerned. (Sublime Chord is perhaps the most powerful example I can think of on short notice, but Shadowcraft Mage bears special mention as well.)

Third, prestige class benefits are often balanced out by drawbacks. Good luck getting into Fochluchan Lyrist or Magelord without giving up caster levels, for instance.

I could go on, but I'd rather not at this point.

HeirRakus, the simplest mechanical suggestion here is to ask your DM how Versatile Casting works with Heighten Spell and your highest-level spell slots. (I mistakenly said Still Spell earlier; I meant Heighten. I can't edit things on my phone.) This method is entirely within the rules, and it does not require you to beg him to houserule a patch for you and you alone.

#14

Krusk

Nov 01, 2011 10:32:17

Words do not exist for how strongly I oppose this.

Thats interesting, I am really in favor of this idea. Maybe not out of the box, but thats why thugsb said "Specific balance issues".

I would say that all prestige classes could have their entry requirements thinned out. Id also say that most could have them waived entirely.

SRD Alone.

Arcane Archer

Show

Race Elf or half-elf.
Base Attack Bonus +6.
Feats Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow or shortbow).
Spells Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells.

They want to be an arcane archer. They will take those feats anyway provided they are good. Drop the spells requirement. Say "This class doesn't give casting, you have to have some from somewhere first". With all that in mind you still can't get in before 7th level. I'd drop it to bab+4 honestly. Its powers aren't paticulalrly so good you need to wait till 7th level before they are approperoate. 7th level assumes you can jump between multiple books and can get a +1BAB/+1 casting class core you have to wait till 8th. These changes mean you don't have to dumpsterdive around

#15

Tempest_Stormwind

Nov 01, 2011 14:12:45

Krusk, he said that all the prereqs would be waived and all PrCs treated as base classes, i.e. a 10th level character who is Holy Liberator 10. That is a very different proposition from what you're suggesting, which is simpler prereqs by and large. (I would be inclined to agree with you there in many cases, especially the poorly-designed DMG PrCs by and large.)

However, I prefer revising those PrCs, keeping the theme but ditching the mechanics for ones along the same line as late 3.5 PrCs. My own version of the Arcane Archer has been retuned for 6th-level entry as well (i.e. 5 base class levels before taking your first level of AA), although I did alter the class somewhat for a different role*. Likewise, my Dwarven Defender is quite a bit more mobile, and designed for 6th-level entry as well**.

Your approach seems to be the other school of thought - keep the PrCs the same but set the prereqs accordingly. Here's my thoughts on your suggestions:

Arcane Archer: Agreed wholeheartedly given the class as we see it. The BAB change certainly fixes ONE dumpster-dive problem while introducing another (see below; it's minimal here though), and your change may actually make it warlock-compatible, which I think is an interesting possibility. (See my note below.)

Archmage: Pretty much in agreement here with one caveat: I despise full-casting PrCs but can't think of any reason why an "archmage" shouldn't be one. 5th or 6th level spells would be my choice in an ideal world, where all caster PrCs followed the psionic model (i.e. give up a level of advancement at 1st, at least, to gain all your snazzy class features), but since the majority of caster PrCs are essentially super-gestalts anyway ("Yeah, you keep progressing everything that matters as a wizard AND you gain these cool features too!"), I don't think even 6th is plausible. Granted, the archmage is no Incantrix, but still...

Assassin: If you add in a few caveats to how you kill the target, then sure, I can see where you're coming from. A simple example would include "without being detected". (Then again, it's no secret I'm a fan of Assassin's Creed, so perhaps that's my bias showing.) However, it basically amounts to a rogue with spells, which is strictly better than the core rogue, which is why I think it needs SOME prerequisite.

Dragon Disciple: Hey, it was useful in a few very select circumstances, so I wouldn't be averse to retaining the Speak Draconic and minimum skill rank requirements just to prevent it from giving obscene ability score bonuses at levels far before you could expect good duration buff spells or +4 ability score gear.

Blackguard: I'm not following on "rejigger its spells". Personally, I'd drop the blackguard altogether and just tell players to take levels of Paladin of Tyranny, with a sidebar on falling paladins and paladin redemption to allow for the assorted paladins to switch forms (i.e. when your level 10 paladin falls, instead of taking levels of Blackguard and trading in paladin levels, you'd be a weak-ass paladin for a while until you got an Atonement or something and switched to a 10th level paladin of tyranny). This gives you a way to handle first-level blackguards without even needing to salvage that awful class.

Duelist: Sadly, I'm forced to agree in general. Realistically I'd prefer to roll it in with the swashbuckler and try to salvage the archetype from both weaksauce classes that tried it.

Dwarven Defender: Aelrynith will take issue with this - in his words, it's the tank PrC. You don't take it for Defensive Stance, you take it for +5 AC, very good DR/-, Uncanny Dodge, and Trap Sense all in the same class, which also has full base attack, d12 HD, and two good saves (one of which is Will, traditionally a fighter weak spot). That's actually a really good chassis, although it is strictly passive. People see Defensive Stance and get locked up on it, just like they see Frenzy and ignore Supreme Power Attack. Here, it's still too good at low levels, mostly for the DR. That said, see my note on it below.

Eldritch Knight: Realistically this class is always used for padding in gish builds while they build up prereqs for something else. Dropping the prereqs would only make it easier at that role, meaning everyone can go Wiz1/EK 5 to qualify for most of the really good classes with minimal CL loss, essentially dropping the core drawback to gishes. (EK actually already can be entered at level 2 (i.e. as your second character level), but doing so is very hard and requires a specific race and flaws, and doesn't get you that much beyond the Battle Sorcerer). I'd usually ditch it in general in favor of duskblades if people want swords and spells at lower levels rather than dropping prereqs as a result.

Heirophant: I've seen it used in exactly one circumstance, and that's used pretty much solely for CL boosts. Normally, about 80% of cleric PrCs are never played anyway - I seem to remember someone once got a CO award for using Evangelist in a build, for instance - but that's more a matter of having better options available. I don't think removing prereqs is the way to go here - I think hitting every divine PrC across the board with a psionics-style CL hit would be the best way to go about it. But I digress.

Horizon Walker: No, it isn't trash. The horizon walker is deceptively good, albeit overshadowed outside of core. Full base attack, only 1 hp/level less than a fighter, and decent skills should be enough to make anyone take notice, especially because the feat prereq can be bypassed easily with fighter or ranger levels, and some of the PrC abilities (especially Shifting terrain mastery) are still damn good. Your change would move Shifting to character level 5, amongst other things; at-will (with brief cooldown) party-wide Dimension Door is downright gamebreaking at those levels unless you give every basic city anti-teleportation resources.

Loremaster: Realistically I would agree with you, especially in light of the Archivist. However, again, I would favor beefing it up over canning the prereqs (if for no other reason than avoiding potential gamebreaking synergies introduced by prereq-free dip-friendly PRCs). It's more a failure of the class to capture the feel of a master of lore mechanically, than a failure of setting appropriate prerequisites for its abilities.

Mystic Theurge: You underrate the theurge, I think. Look at the theurge classes that came later that actually got people excited (most notably the Ultimate Magus, but also the Arcane Heirophant). What the theurge needs is synergistic class features, not lower prereqs (which make it ridiculously dip-happy).

Shadowdancer: You're dramatically underrating Summon Shadow (getting a 3HD shadow at level 3 is downright devastating - the only reliable low-level defense against an incorporeal, undead foe that cannot be turned is Magic Missile, and low levels is exactly when you don't have a lot of those spells! To say nothing about an incorporeal spy that's sentient and able to speak to you.), not to mention getting rogue special abilities at half the required level. The class should get a slight boost to match the prereqs, not the other way around. (Personally, I'd give it Tome of Battle advancement in Shadow Hand.)

Thaumaturgist: I'd keep Spell Focus. See, while it isn't all that useful on its own, it's the cost that makes Augment Summoning less of a no-brainer for summoner characters. Thaumaturgists get Augment Summoning for free. See the point?

Removing prereqs just makes these all dip-happy selections that ends up increasing the dumpster-diving problem in the long run, though - unless your defining trait is "To play a blackguard" or something, you're going to shop around to see what works for you. (Case in point: Spellsword 1 in every single gish build. Essentially no prereqs to speak of, and everyone takes one level of it for +1 attack and +1 CL).

My version of the arcane archer is a little different: I give it slight casting advancement, full caster level advancement, Warlock compatibility, and limited martial maneuvers. Despite this, it still plays fundamentally like a mystic archer. I did drop the elf requirement, although elves and half-elves do get a few other subtle benefits throughout the rest of the class.

I'll be happy to share it once its finished. I'm working on a masters' thesis right now, so it's hard to find development time.

The odd bit is, I didn't read the Pathfinder Arcane Archer until after I'd written it, and we both honed in on more or less the same design space. Check that out for another interesting take on the class.

#16

Krusk

Nov 02, 2011 10:37:26

I made that post in all of 15 min, so there are bound to be things I overlooked. Shadowdancer create shadows being a good one.

Horizon walker - I really like the class too. All trash in reference to its pre-reqs. Dimension door every couple of rounds seems approperiate for level 5/6/7 ish.

In general dropping prereqs is nothing but a power up, because people aren't forced to take crap feats, and wait until they are this tall to get in. Thats where someone puts some specific thought into each one and redefines them.

Also Ael disagrees with a lot of what I say, so him loving the DD is no suprise.

Blackguard - Rejigger its spells. Basically totally rework them so they are more like a bards. Yes you should just play a paladin of tyranny, but I was going through revising pre-reqs, not saying which of these should be cut in general. (see duelist)