Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 SylvanPrincess Feb 20, 2009 23:32:30	edit>i have come across a few different articles talking about the Drow. the main one (and the one i like the most) says that drow get +2 DEX, -2 CON, +2 INT, +2 CHA.seeing as how the only mention ive seen of drow in 3.0 is in the monster manual, is this correct? i dont believe ive seen any other 3.0 racial abilities for them. im just wondering, because this would make my character powerful indeed. does anyone know what the drow is in 3.0? ************************************************************************************ so my group still plays 3.0 DnD, and i have been out of the loop for awhile. i just created this drow fighter/rogue, and would like advise on where to go with it from people who have explored this route before. these are the numbers i have. base numbers without racial +/- str 15 dex 18 con 14 in 13 wis 11 cha 10 thoughts on number placement? should i have my 15 in str? originally i had my 10 there with the thought that id go weapon specialization soon to boost my damage. this way id have my 15 in int. help me? pros and cons? i got very lucky with my 18, and i was going to put it into dex, with the elf +2 to dex pumping it up.from there i was unsure. first off, i am kinda trying to make something similar to kate beckinsale's character in underworld - stealth and hand to hand with two-weapon fighting. because i am a fighter, i started off with an extra feat, taking combat reflexes. my question is, if i want to maximize a critical-striking-twoweapon-fighting-sneak-attacking approach, what should my feat progression be? and what are other abilities i get for being drow? i started off with sneak attack, combat reflexes and weapon finesse, but im not sure if i should replace finesse with something else? eventually i am going to take weapon specialization for the added damage making me wonder if strength is really necessary. what about unarmed combat? i want to know the synergies to make this a powerhouse. thanks for your time! ~kate
#2 unundindur Feb 21, 2009 3:07:43	If you are ok with making some slight changes here is what I suggest: Rogue 3 /Swashbuckler X (from Complete warrior) Take the feat "Daring Outlaw" from Complete Scoundrel to make the combination really nice. If you have fighter levels you gain a free boost if you have "Drow of the Underdark", where a fighter can trade out heavy armor proficiency for rogue-like bonuses. If you want to go for critical hits, you may also look into tome of battle and the tiger claw discipline.
#3 Grumman Feb 21, 2009 3:15:06	Unundindur: She's playing 3.0, not 3.5. Personally, I'd put an even number into intelligence, just because skill points are pretty much the only thing that doesn't increase retroactively. I'd probably put the 15 into CON, 14 into INT, and 13 into STR. It's worth thinking about the Ninja of the Crescent Moon PrC, which has the benefit of increasing your sneak attack and making you more sneaky without losing B.A.B.
#4 unundindur Feb 21, 2009 3:42:39	Unundindur: She's playing 3.0, not 3.5. Personally, I'd put an even number into intelligence, just because skill points are pretty much the only thing that doesn't increase retroactively. I'd probably put the 15 into CON, 14 into INT, and 13 into STR. It's worth thinking about the Ninja of the Crescent Moon PrC, which has the benefit of increasing your sneak attack and making you more sneaky without losing B.A.B. Ops, my bad. In 3.0 I agree with you.
#5 SylvanPrincess Feb 21, 2009 10:59:30	thanks for your input guys, i appreciate it! grumman: 15 in my con with the -2 i'd get for being an elf? unundindur: thanks for your ideas, but i only have the players guide 3.0. i actually bought 4.0, but its hard to train an old dog (our DM). i guess im just asking about my character as a level 1/1, and what i should take immediately to make her crazy. i dont even want to begin to think about prestige classes - unfortunately we'll get to level 4-5-6 and the game will disperse. hopefully this one will be different. i want to take advantage of my 20 dex (ifi put my 18 into dex thats is) and i like combat reflexes A LOT. 5 extra attacks once ive sneak-attacked sounds awesome to me. i want to maximize that avenue of assault. i have 2 fets to star the game with (plus sneak attack), and i took combat reflexes. should i take weapon finesse as my second? or ambidexterity/two-weapon fighting? expertise? i guess i should just think about it longer....
#6 Grumman Feb 21, 2009 12:03:13	grumman: 15 in my con with the -2 i'd get for being an elf? Not unless I misunderstood you. With my suggested arrangement, your stats would be: STR 13 DEX 20 (18+2) CON 13 (15-2) INT 16 (14+2) WIS 11 CHA 12 (10+2) I think you are over-estimating the benefit of Combat Reflexes, as it relies on your enemies being stupid enough to do things that provoke attacks of opportunity, while you are standing in stabbing range.
#7 sam_lamander Feb 21, 2009 14:28:37	First of all, I think that, for your first level, you should take a Rogue only level, then multiclass. But that's just because I don't like those "apprentice levels" when you have half a level of Rogue and half a level of whatever. I recommend Rogue for the skill points. As stated before, skill points don't increase retroactively, so you might want to have as much as you can as soon as you can. With a high DEX such as yours, a 2 weapon wielding fighter/rogue should work pretty well. However, for stealth purposes, I would recommend Ranger over Fighter. Same Attack Bonus, but you get Hide and Move Silently as class skills, which is good if you want to be really stealthy. Moreover, a Ranger gets Two Weapon Fighting / Ambidexterity as a free feat as long as they are wearing light armor. Which you would wear anyway, in order not to impair your stealth capabilities and enjoy the full extent of that DEX modifier to your AC. On the other hand, a Fighter gets enough feats for you to pick up Two Weapons Fighting / Ambidexterity (in 3.0, you need both to reduce the TWF penalties as much as you can) pretty fast, and can take the Weapon Specialization feat, adding some damage, while a Ranger can not. For the critical striking part, first, don't forget to pick the Improved Critical feat. In 3.0, it can stack with the effects of the keen edge spell, or the keen magic property. Scimitars and rapiers are nice for that. Kukris have a nice critical range too, but are exotic Besides, the 3.0 Weapon Master prestige class improves critical strikes a lot. The prerequisites for becoming a Weapon Master are: BAB +5 Intimidate : 4 ranks Feats : Weapon Focus (your choice), Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack A drow Rogue / Ranger can take its first level as a Weapon Master at level 16, if I'm not mistaken, if he doesn't take an other feat than those required. A drow Rogue / Fighter can achieve this much faster, depending on how many Rogue levels he would take. I would recommend Rogue 7 / Fighter 6 / Weapon Master 7 with a progression as follow : Show Rog 1 : Ambidexterity Fgt 1 : Weapon Finesse Fgt 2 : Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (rapier) Rog 2 : - Fgt 3 : - Fgt 4 : Dodge, Weapon Specialization (rapier) Rog 3 : - Fgt 5 : - Fgt 6 : Mobility, Spring Attack Rog 4 : - Rog 5 : - Rog 6 : Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack WM 1 : - wM 2 : - WM 3 : Improved Critical (rapier) WM 4 : - WM 5 : - WM 6 : Improved Two Weapon Fighting WM 7 : - Rog 7 : -
#8 Grumman Feb 22, 2009 1:56:45	...Ranger... Two Weapon Fighting... Scimitars... Just as long as s/he isn't Chaotic Good.
#9 sam_lamander Feb 22, 2009 4:39:19	Yeah, I know... Sounds way to much like Drizzt. But, as it happens, with a Drow, Fighter is a better choice for a Two Weapon Fighting weapon master, even though it reduces the max ranks in Hide / Move Silently. And I tend to prefer rapiers over scimitars, even though they're basically the same, as far as game mechanics go.
#10 Grumman Feb 22, 2009 6:34:22	Yeah, I know... Sounds way to much like Drizzt. But, as it happens, with a Drow, Fighter is a better choice for a Two Weapon Fighting weapon master, even though it reduces the max ranks in Hide / Move Silently. That's not a concern, actually. Skill costs are based on which particular class you are advancing, but maximum skill levels are based on whether it is a class skill for any of your classes.
#11 sam_lamander Feb 22, 2009 6:54:34	Ah, yes, silly me. Still, having only 2+INT skill points / level to spend on cross-class skills makes it hard for a Fighter to be as stealthy as a Ranger (did they get 4 or 6+INT in 3.0 ?). With Rogue levels, you can compensate for that, but only at the expense of other possibly useful skills.
#12 SylvanPrincess Feb 22, 2009 9:53:03	thanks for such great advice! i will take everything you all have said into consideration. curious how you have me with a +2 to char and int? this isnt something ive seen before...Now i have. but i dont think i'll be able to receive it. DM more than likely wont allow it. the other thing i really like about fighter rogue is the higher hit die. but i can see your point about creatures immune to crits. still, 11-20 crit is just what im looking for, thanks for pointing that out. this is good info, thanks for the progression chart, its been awhile since i actually tried to plan something out that far in the progression-future... kinda have concerns about standing toe-toe with two weapons. but i guess with dodge and 17-18 AC i should be alright. i was going to take a long range weapon too, i had just a short bow, but maybe 2 hand crossbows would be coo. IDK. i must do some reading now i think
#13 SylvanPrincess Feb 22, 2009 10:06:00	so in the mock progression chart you wrote up for me, is that reflecting starting as only rogue? that the only part im having trouble understanding. can you explain how you have this char leveling up? im actually not too up on my cross/multi-class information. for all intents and purposes - compared to you'all- im a rookie. i have played many campaigns, but never gotten past level 4-5 because the group inevitably falls apart around then...this group has some lasting power. i cant wait to make this character go far. would it be worth taking any levels as a spellcaster? say rogue/sorceress? or rogue/wizard? i kinda like the sorceress as i wouldnt want to spend time preparing my spells. what would the benefits of only rogue/sorceress be? that seems like a cool combo, albeit a little weak hit points wise... thoughts?
#14 sam_lamander Feb 22, 2009 18:43:29	curious how you have me with a +2 to char and int? this isnt something ive seen before...Now i have. but i dont think i'll be able to receive it. DM more than likely wont allow it. Drows in 3.0 always have +2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CON. However, males get a -2 CHA, and females get a +2 CHA. In 3.5, all drows get the +2 CHA. Don't forget you also get those special abilities : Drow Traits in 3.0 Drow Traits (Ex): These are in addition to the basic elf traits, except where noted here. Drow do not get the usual elven weapon proficiencies. Spell resistance 11 + class level. +2 racial bonus to Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities. Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day-dancing lights, darkness, and faerie fire. These abilities are as the spells cast by a sorcerer of the drow’s character level. Darkvision up to 120 feet. This replaces elven low-light vision. Light Blindness (Ex): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. In addition, they suffer a -1 circumstance penalty to all attack rolls, saves, and checks while operating in bright light.
#15 SylvanPrincess Feb 22, 2009 19:56:18	wow, once again, great information. i thought this thread had floated down into the 2nd or 3rd page, but there it was, page 1! thanks for the follow-up Sam.this unconfuses me a bit because i was thinking i could be rogue/fighter to start. i thought there was the ability to dual class somewhere, spitting your experience evenly through your classes. hmm... whatever, this is great! i cant wait to be a whirling ballerina of death! of course if someone were to call me character a ballerina..... the specifics are: albino drow, violet eyes, dyed black hair. i kinda want to be a runaway princess/bastard princess some kind,caring (i know there arent many, but im thinking an obi-wan kenobi sorta mentor) drow spirited away before i could be killed for imperfection. or something dress all in black, actually i drew a pic, ill post it some time maybe in the other forum about backgrounds. face is almost covered all the way to hide my pale skin.and i have goggles :D (think WW2 bomber goggles) a friend of min was trying to tell me that when im in the sunlight i lose all magic associated with the drow. is that true? this guy sometimes over-elaborates (fibs). wher is the information about 3.0 drow racial traits from? id like to show it to my DM and see what he thinks. would blindfighting be something to consider? if im trapped without my cool oakley goggles i borrowed from vin diesel in pitch black?
#16 Grumman Feb 23, 2009 3:01:00	a friend of min was trying to tell me that when im in the sunlight i lose all magic associated with the drow. is that true? this guy sometimes over-elaborates (fibs). The drow do make some magic items that stop working if exposed to sunlight (or removed from the radiation of the Underdark, I can't remember which), but they are not limited to these items. wher is the information about 3.0 drow racial traits from? id like to show it to my DM and see what he thinks. The 3.0 SRD would probably be the place to look, or the 3.0 Monster Manual if you've got it.
#17 sam_lamander Feb 23, 2009 8:13:54	I found what I posted about drows at Open Gaming Foundation, in the Monsters (E) file, under the Elf entry. This should match what is in the Monster Manual 3.0. Though they don't specify racial modifiers to ability scores, they do specify the usual ability scores: Typical ability scores for males are Str 10, Dex 13, Con 8, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 9. Typical scores for females are Str 10, Dex 13, Con 8, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 13. If I remember the rules for making a "monster" race into a PC race correctly, you should end up with what we posted. Moreover, I remember there being an entry in the Dungeon Master's Guide 3.0 stating those exact racial ability modifiers, somewhere around racial subtypes. The rules as written don't say drows lose their spell-like abilities when in the sunlight, in general. However, Grumman is right : magic items that are specific to drows tend to stop working, if not completely destroyed, when exposed to the sunlight. Besides, you GM might have other house rules regarding drows, but if he allows you to play a drow, he probably doesn't want to make it impossible for you to play it. As for blind-fight, I think this could be an option, yes. However, blind fight only removes the penalties for things that are combat related, when you close your eyes in combat. Whether this is enough for this feat to be worth taking is your call, though.
#18 SylvanPrincess Feb 23, 2009 10:33:00	and here is the first version of Nayarya 1.0 im going the rout (almost) that you laid out for me. dont think ill be able to get the additional +2int, +2char, but ima surely try! i thank everyone for their comments an helpful tidbits!
#19 true_shinken Feb 23, 2009 13:45:12	I think she is a bit, ya know, pale for a drow.
#20 SylvanPrincess Feb 23, 2009 18:54:13	I think she is a bit, ya know, pale for a drow. thanks for the observation. i guess you didnt read the part about her being albino... hence why she was taken away before anything happened to her, and why she is true neutral, and not evil.