I'm playing with a new (to me) group of people, and they don't optimize much. Allowed books are core three and complete, plus PHB2, no psionics. (and no retraining). We are playing the 2nd ed Keep on the Borderlands, DM updated to 3.5.
We already have a fighter 4 (tactical/protecting others), Pally 4, Scout 4(archer), barbarian 1/rogue 3, barbarian 1/favored soul 3, wizard 4 (played by a 13yo), and myself-fighter 4 (archer).
I'm already into fighter 4 lvls, and since I don't want to go fighter 20, I'm thinking about trying a gish but I'm new to arcane casters. Advice welcome, thanks in advance!
Race: Elf
STR 16, DEX 20, CON 14, INT 18, WIS 14, CHA 13
1. Fighter1, point blank shot, precise shot
2. Fighter2, rapid shot
3. Fighter3, weapon focus (bow)
4. Fighter4, weapon specialization (bow)
thinking about
5. Wizard1, should I have a familiar? is it wise to specialize?
6. Wizard2, knowledge devotion (really want this feat)
7. Wizard3
8. Spellsword1, increase INT
9. Spellsword2, practiced spellcaster, and elven spell lore?
10. Spellsword3
11. Mythic Exemplar1 -Ktolemange
12. Mythic Exemplar2, increase INT, ranged weapon mastery
13-20. finish out mythic exemplar, metamagic feats?
I'd end with BAB 15, Base Saves 11/6/14, 7th lvl spells at caster lvl 17, can ignore 15% ASF, and mythic exemplar bonus abilities.
Originally Posted by JosephKell View Post
Order of the Imbued Arrow
Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 3/Eldritch Knight 9/Arcane Archer 2
Hit Dice 2d10 + 4d4 + 3d8 + 9d6 + 2d8; Base Attack Bonus +18/+13/+8/+3; Saves +16/+8/+10; Requires knowledge (arcana) 6, Point Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow).
Wizard Caster 14
Attribute Distribution (before racial modifiers)
25 pt: Str 10, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8
28 pt: Str 10, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 8
32 pt: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8
Rolled: Int, Dex 15+, Con, Wis, Str (weight limits), Cha
Elf or Half-Elf
1 Ftr 1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2 Ftr 1/Wiz 1: Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll
3 Ftr 1/Wiz 2: Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow)
4 Ftr 2/Wiz 2: Far Shot
5 Ftr 2/Wiz 3:
6 Ftr 2/Wiz 4: Rapid Shot
7 Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Sps 1: Ignore ASF 10%, +1 Wiz Caster
8 Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Sps 1/EK 1: Dodge
9 Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Sps 1/EK 1/AA 1: Enhance Arrow +1, Mobility
10 Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Sps 1/EK 1/AA 2: Imbue Arrow
11 Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Sps 1/EK 2/AA 2: +1 Wiz Caster
12 Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Sps 1/EK 3/AA 2: Shot on the Run, +1 Wiz Caster
13 Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Sps 1/EK 4/AA 2: +1 Wiz Caster
14 Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Sps 1/EK 5/AA 2: +1 Wiz Caster
15 Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Sps 1/EK 6/AA 2: Manyshot, +1 Wiz Caster
16 Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Sps 1/EK 7/AA 2: +1 Wiz Caster
17 Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Sps 1/EK 8/AA 2: +1 Wiz Caster
18 Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Sps 1/EK 9/AA 2: Ranged Pin, +1 Wiz Caster
19 Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Sps 2/EK 9/AA 2: Ranged Disarm
20 Ftr 2/Wiz 4/Sps 3/EK 9/AA 2: Ignore ASF 15%, +1 Wiz Caster
With Fighter 4 already under your belt, EK 9 is likely out. Arcane Archer 2 is important for the Imbue Arrows ability; that and 4 Fighter levels puts you as a 14th level Caster at 20th level. DON'T LOSE ANY MORE CASTER LEVELS :P.
Your questions:
5. Yes, and yes (Conjuration or Transmutation are the usual choices)
9. Elven Spell Lore is useful but not VITAL; if you like it, you're not hurting the build.
13-20. Metamagic feats are a really solid way to improve your spells' effectiveness, much more useful than a feat for +2 Damage.
If you're forced to work with those, you definitely don't want to lose any more. Your next levels should be Wizard (obviously) and you should enter PrC as soon as possible. You should also avoid losing too much BAB, because that's the only real thing you're getting from your Fighter-levels, so best make the most of it. The simpliest advancement would be:
Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion [CMage] 5/Spellsword [CWar] 1/Sacred Exorcist [CDiv] 8
Now, this would require some trickery - you need to pick Combat Casting on level 6 (obviously, for Abjurant Champion) and you need Dismissal as a castable spell by level 12. This can be achieved with Arcane Disciple [CDiv]: Balance, but as far as I know, it has only been printed in Spell Compendium and some Faerun-books, so you'd have to ask for access (that said, Spell Compendium and Compendiums in general are great sources). You've got the Wisdom for it though.
The other option is Arcane Disciple and the Domain-modifying effect, but I'm not sure where the Domain Modification feat is. You could pay an extra point of BAB by taking a 3rd level of Wizard, thus qualifying for Sacred Exorcist on level 13, ending at Fighter 4/Wizard 3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 7 for 16 BAB, 16th level casting (8th level spells) and a bunch of handy abilities, but frankly losing that extra point of BAB is a pain.
But yeah, you really don't want to lose caster levels to Spellsword & Mystic Exemplar. At most, lose 1 to Eldritch Knight [DMG] as it carries you all the 10 levels, allowing you to make do with just it and Abjurant Champion; I'd prefer the suggested method as it doesn't lose any and still finishes with 17 BAB on level 20. With Practiced Spellcaster [CArc], you'd have Caster Level 20, meaning you could provide your own Greater Magic Weapon, among other things.
Unless you trade Familiar for something (not a bad idea, PHBII offers Abrupt Jaunt for Conjurers, which is a great way to keep your distance as an archer, and to avoid full attacks or even some spells), you should of course get one. But ya, I suggest trading Familiar away for Abrupt Jaunt and thus being a specialist Conjurer. You can afford to ban Evocation and Necromancy - you do attacking with a bow, so offensive spells are mostly of little use to you and the few slots you do want to use for offense are just fine as Conjuration/Transmutation-based offense.
Martial Wizard from SRD is a no-brainer if allowed (it's effectively "Core"), losing the near-useless (for you) Scribe Scroll for an extra Fighter-feat.
And there's always Ye Olde Chameleon, from races of destiny, which while it doesn't qualify you for other classes, is basically great in my opinion. There's a solid handbook on it somewhere around here.
Fighter 1 / Bard 7 / Arcane Archer 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Ruathar 3
Ends up with:
+16 BaB
Bard CL: 17
SC CL: 17
Full sublime chord caster progression (unlike SC 2 / EK 8), so this character gets 9th level spells at lvl 19, not at lvl 20 like most Sublime Chord gishes.
Gets Imbue Arrow.
I want to keep up ranged attacks since I'll only have a couple 3rd lvl spells and I'll run out in his big encounters. Is that a mistake?InnaBinder: I'm not sure about taking Arcane Archer because I have no idea what spells work well with it, any suggestions?
Eldariel: I'm sure this DM wouldn't go for anything that complicated, so I guess bland but effective Eldritch Knight is the way to go. Thanks for pointing out that I need to hold on to the strengths I do get from fighter4.
Dr_Rocktopus: Forgot to say, not only no evil, we actually have to be good. :P
Irwing: um, not really helpful
and I would appreciate spell suggestions that would take advantage of my high dex, or are just awesome. ^_^
seriously, I suggest you drop the idea of an archer gish. You simply don't have the necessary levels to pull it off by level 20, especially because you have a very high INT but bad CHA, so you can't use Sublime Chord.
Right now, in my opinion, your best course of action would be taking 2 levels as a Wizard, Combat Casting at level 6 and going Abjurant Champion immediately.
Detailed progression:
1. Fighter | Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Fighter | Rapid Shot
3. Fighter | Weapon Focus
4. Fighter | Weapon Specialization
5. Wizard
6. Wizard | Combat Casting
7. A.Champ
8. A.Champ
9. A.Champ
10. A.Champ
11. A.Champ
12. Eldritch Knight
13. Eldritch Knight
14. Eldritch Knight
15. Eldritch Knight
16. Eldritch Knight
17. Eldritch Knight
18. Eldritch Knight
19. Eldritch Knight
20. Eldritch Knight
Casts as a lvl 15 Wizard (7th level spells), effective CL: 19, because of Martial Arcanist (CL = BaB), all Abjurant Champion goodies.
To sum it up, with this progression you get the best possible BaB and you loose only 1 spellcasting level from now on... and your effective CL is very high.
I don't think it's possible to do anything better with those stats and with 4 levels of fighter. I hope it's optimized enough for you, 'cause it won't get any better.
2 levels of Arcane Archer is a godsend, but you don't have room for that: fitting AA in that progression would mean loosing 2 spellcasting levels, which means ending up with 6th level spells and getting everything 2 levels later, which makes the character effectively unplayable. You have to give up Arcane Archer.
Fighter 4/ Duskblade 8/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Cragtop Archer 3
BAB +20
Caster Level 20th(4th lvl spells)
easy to use
:D
:D
BaB +19 and casting 7th lvl Wizard spells (Int, at Int 18) at CL 19 > BaB +17/+18 and casting 5th level Arcanamach spells (Cha, at Cha 13) at CL 17/18
Another option is Runescarred Berserker, which runs off wisdom but you only need a wis up to 15, and it has an incredible spell-list famous for its screwball qualities. I imagine you're not qualified for Rasheman regional feats though, sadly. But perhaps your GM will wave that req? They make a great specialist version of the gish.
Another option is Runescarred Berserker, which runs off wisdom but you only need a wis up to 15, and it has an incredible spell-list famous for its screwball qualities. I imagine you're not qualified for Rasheman regional feats though, sadly. But perhaps your GM will wave that req? They make a great specialist version of the gish.
Allowed books are core three and complete, plus PHB2, no psionics. (and no retraining).
Plus, it would require a house rule. Besides, I still think Wizards have a better spell list, and while he has the Wis, Int is still his best caster stat by far. Also, RSBs can't cast normally, they have to write the scars, expending XPs, money and a LOT of time. I really don't recommend it.
Suel Arcanamach is a 3/4 BaB class, BaB is +17 for the first character and +18 for the second version... CL is respectively 17 and 18; plus, it ends up with 5th level spells, relying on Cha (which is low for the OP's char, while his Int is very high), and he ends up with a very limited spell choice. Seriously, I suggest that you avoid those :P
BaB +19 and casting 7th lvl Wizard spells (Int, at Int 18) at CL 19 > BaB +17/+18 and casting 5th level Arcanamach spells (Cha, at Cha 13) at CL 17/18
... opps ... wasnt even looking at the OPs stats... good point...
:D
That said, the four levels of fighter really hurt here, because it means you'll have late entry at best to most of the interesting classes. Let me do a twitch of reading. I think we need to basically run through what you want to cast and how. This sounds like a place where if we can get third level spells in a hurry, the swiftblade is perfect for you, since we're past caring about 9ths. I know it's not in the completes, but it's not particularly bad, perhaps you can ask your GM about it specifically?
InnaBinder: I'm not sure about taking Arcane Archer because I have no idea what spells work well with it, any suggestions?
Glitterdust Arrows are made of Win. Shiny, sparkly, blindness-inducing Win.
I do LOVE arcane archer, and you are perfectly positioned for it.
You know, we could just go battle-sorcerer, the one with 3/4 bab and d8 hd. I know it gets less in the way of spells, but that could move you into position to qualify for another full bab\full caster progression before two dipping arcane archer at some point.
Opinions? You get hurt on spells known and spells per day, but we're headed straight into the land of specialists anyway, so I think it is not so bad. Variant's from UA, by the by. You can find it on dandwiki.com and since it is OGL, you can probably convince your GM to let it in. I consider it non-offensive, as a GM.
Target spell level should be 6th, which gets us the crucial antimagic field which yes, you can load onto an arrow and completely ruin someone's day. And lawl-glitterdust-lawl! Also, the UA variant doesn't ruin your options or your bab. It's not favored because it's normally a non-optimal choice, but for us it may be well-positioned. How do you feel about sanctum spell cheese?
Also, the "past caring about level 9 spells"-thing isn't something to misunderstand - that means that more than ever, you can't afford to lose caster levels (because level 8 spells still kick level 7's ass, and so on). Losing one level still maintains level 8 spells (character level 15th).
So I guess we need to wait on the OP and see what he wants, neh?
Best Gish Archer ever:
Fighter 1 / Bard 7 / Arcane Archer 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Ruathar 3
Ends up with:
+16 BaB
Bard CL: 17
SC CL: 17
Full sublime chord caster progression (unlike SC 2 / EK 8), so this character gets 9th level spells at lvl 19, not at lvl 20 like most Sublime Chord gishes.
Gets Imbue Arrow.
Best Gish Archer ever:
Bard4/Paladin1/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion2/ArcaneArcher2/SublimeChord1/AbjurantChampion3/SublimeChord1/SacredExorcist4/Paladin1
Ends up with:
+17BaB
Bard CL: 17
SC CL: 17
Still gets imbue arrow, but also picks up other class features. Trades a level of SC for CHA to saves, if this is not desired swap the 1st paladin level to crusader and the 2nd to an arcane advancing class.
And for the OP, I also recommend Ur-Priest or Chameleon. 4 fighter levels seriously gimps you, and your CHA isn't high enough for SC.
Basically, ask your GM if he'll allow a non-evil Ur-Priest, or something along those lines. Whatever is the simplest and most elegant in your eyes is what you should do.
If your group is not huge into optimization you really don't need to go crazier than that. Sure, Fighter 4 leaves you a little gimped compared to the normal gishes thrown around on this board, but I'm positive the above build will be fine in your campaign. You've got 13 year olds and such and a non-optimized group, if you roll in with a completely cheesed out character you're going to end up stealing everyone's thunder anyways. I like the above build, and am willing to bet it will be hella fun.
As for spells, Greater Magic Weapon is obvious, it'll let you load your bow with elemental damage instead of worrying about your enhancement bonus. Spells that help overcome DR are important, as DR can really mess up archers. Find a way to Fly as often as you can. Flying archers are good things. Greater Mirror Image....life saver. Improved Invisibility is great. The "Heart of" spells all loaded on are a pretty nice luxury. Heroics to grab a feat you would like. Teleportation is good for you, as you need to stay away from things. Any swift spells that are useful are nice, since you can still take a full attack after.
Best Gish Archer ever:
Bard4/Paladin1/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion2/ArcaneArcher2/SublimeChord1/AbjurantChampion3/SublimeChord1/UnseenSeer4/Paladin1
Ends up with:
+17BaB
Bard CL: 17
SC CL: 17
Still gets imbue arrow, but also picks up other class features. Trades a level of SC for CHA to saves, if this is not desired swap the 1st paladin level to crusader and the 2nd to an arcane advancing class.
And for the OP, I also recommend Ur-Priest or Chameleon. 4 fighter levels seriously gimps you, and your CHA isn't high enough for SC.
You should add Sacred Exorcist-levels over Unseen Seer and pick up Divine Might for Charisma-empowered arrows.
You should add Sacred Exorcist-levels over Unseen Seer and pick up Divine Might for Charisma-empowered arrows.
I totally meant Sacred Exorcist, whoops. I was kinda debating whether to go UNSS3/SE1 or SE4, decided on SE4 but then wrote UNSS4. Thx.
You get the damage bonus (barely useful), you get the Advanced Learning (useful), you get Silent Spell (ok...) and then you get a +1 bonus on CL on all divination spells... but you also loose 1 CL for ALL OTHER arcane spells!!!
I think this kind of tradeoff alone makes it not worthy at all to play this class... it really does more harm than good to you.
Also, that progression gets CHA to saves at level 20... it's something great to carry along the whole campaign, but by that time, I would prefer the additional 7th, 8th and 9th level spell.
Sacred Exorcist is very good, if you ignore the RP requirement or if you can meet it... Unseen Seer and Paladin are basically meh. With this build, you'll be probably playing like a full arcane caster and shooting arrows to clean trash mobs and exploit Imbue Arrow, so pumping up your spellcasting level and CL as most as you can is your first and most important objective... everything else is far less important.
By the way, this whole discussion is not very helpful to the OP, since he's stuck with 4 fighter levels. With that in mind, I'm still recommending
Ftr 4 / Wiz 2 / AC 5 / EK 9
mostly because he said that his DM prefers if he keeps things simple.
I've decided on Fighter 4/ Wizard 3/ Spellsword 1/ Abj. Ch. 5/ Eldritch Knight 7 (maybe EK 5/Arcane Archer 2). BAB 18=CL18. 8th or 7th lvl spells (and can cast 4 lvl 6 spells everyday). Good saves, relatively simple build, but better than fighter 20. ;)
I feel good about class choices, although still accepting advice. go ahead and hijack this, I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd like to see newer ideas.
and cuz i'm curious...to make a better/different/speciality archer gish, how should I have set my original stats (18, 17, 16, 16, 14, 13) either within my book restrictions or with any books
wow, lotsa replies!
I've decided on Fighter 4/ Wizard 3/ Spellsword 1/ Abj. Ch. 5/ Eldritch Knight 7 (maybe EK 5/Arcane Archer 2). BAB 18=CL18. 8th or 7th lvl spells (and can cast 4 lvl 6 spells everyday). Good saves, relatively simple build, but better than fighter 20. ;)
You are taking a wasted level in Wizard 3 unless I'm missing something.
Fighter 4/Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/EK
if you really want to cast in armor go like this:
Fighter 4/Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion +1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion +4/EK
either way it saves you a BAB, which also ups your caster level by 1, which means you can snag an ioun stone and be easily able to cast GMW at full effect. You're also not delaying Abjurant Champion by another level, which is good since it is what makes everything shine.
Go specialist for more spells and the ability to get rid of your familiar for abrupt jaunt or quick shift.
17 Str 18 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 13 Cha would be how I set my stats.
I'd looked at it, but it's no good because it only lets you cast spells equal to your fighter level +1, so 5th level spells in my case.
Considering that you won't get level 6 spells until level 15 at the earliest, I would say it's pretty darn good for your next 11 levels.
Considering that you won't get level 6 spells until level 15 at the earliest, I would say it's pretty darn good for your next 11 levels.
She won't have the proficiencies required for Spellsword if she takes that variant. I was thinking about that too. If EK requires heavy armor proficiency, which I forget if it does, it would also mess with that.
@EricaG: I understand wanting the +8 initiative from a Hummingbird familiar, so I get the 3rd level sub. The Generalist Wizardry thing only gets you 1 bonus spell of yer highest level spells you can cast per day. It's nowhere near as good as a specialist, and nowhere in the same area code as how many extra spells/day a focused specialist gets. The ability to snag abrupt jaunt or quick shift may even be worth losing the familiar double bonus (especially abrupt jaunt). Up to you, but make sure you read over that generalist wizardry thing again.