Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bronzebeard Oct 06, 2008 4:16:07	Welcome to all you CoPtiers who entered to take a look at my post. I must tell you, before we begin, that as I finished writing the way too long post yesterday night - the boards whisked it away to unknown lands. Way too frustrated with all the work that went kaplooi, I hope that writing this new post I haven't missed anything. If I did, feel free to ask for clarification. On to the trouble at hand: I'm starting a new character at an already active campaign. The DM style is unknown to me and I haven't yet asked him as for any house rules and such. I'd ask him. But we're on hiatus now. The group is composed of four players already. Each have one of the main roles (I think there is warrior and wizard). So, I, after taking a long look at the bard abilities and such, decided that I should play as one of those (I never given more than a glance toward that guy. So I guess it's about time). I really like the Swiss army knife feel of the bard. With his skills, debuffs, buffs and not too crappy attack bonus you can actually find something to do any round. Bard 2 (lunch point for the campaign). Race likely be Human. Obvious reasons. Maybe I'll take the Draconic Creature template RotD. Ability boost seems rather nice. Bardic Knack PHB II coupled with Jack of All Trades CV is very attractive (better than bardic knowledge). I'll do the trade of Hymn of Fortification CC as suggested in the bard handbook. Melodic Casting CM & Nymph's Kiss BoED as also suggested. I'd love to get a flying familiar later on with the Obtain Familiar CA and even greater his effect with Companion spell-link feat. One feat that could describe the feel I'm trying to get is Lyric Spell CV. A tad bit pricy but the versatility it grants. By now everything sounds good, no? what advice am I looking for? Well, my dilemma is should I invest in dexterety or should I pump out strenght? Effectivly, this would change the way I'm playing him. On the one hand, by highering the dex I get to act earlier (Init), get higher armor and be best at combat from a far point (always a good point to be). Alternativly, having better strenght will get me a cunning swashbuckler that along with eldritch-knight, einhander feat and arcane duelist dip (Cha to AC!) would be better than the average joe. errr... or something. Don't know. What's your advice?
#2 gorfnad_the_shiznit Oct 06, 2008 16:22:27	Dragonfire Inspiration from Dragon Magic may be worth looking into. Also the spell Undersong so you don't have to rely on concentration as much. Remember that Dex is your friend. Str based bards are kinda wonky to build. If you have a build in mind we might be able to tweak it. Also have you looked into ToB?
#3 bronzebeard Oct 06, 2008 19:22:38	The undersong spell is sorta what the Melodic Casting feat does. I think. I also recall something about harmonizing weapon. Dragon Inspiration is good. Especially if I take the draconic templated. I'll have to check that further. I'll also have to check how can I use it along with attack action (otherwise, I'll just stand there singing +fire damage - which is pretty, but not very fun). Why dex is my friend? And why the Str is wonky? could you elaborat on the pros and cons? I guess something can be builded with Snowflake Wardance, Arcane strike and others. Dunno. As for ToB. Well, we never did implemented the new classes and martial spells (just too much to track) but if theres a alternate something or a General feat that recommend than please do.
#4 gorfnad_the_shiznit Oct 06, 2008 21:12:07	Considering bards only get light armor proficiency (unless you take battlecaster feat) and a lot of the bard skills are Dex based then you may want to consider to have high Dex, that and if you add in Swashbuckler you get weapon finesse for free so you might as well take advantage of that. An good Str score is always nice for damage however not necessary with most bard builds since you'll have abilities and spells to optimize damage output. Do you have a sample build in mind?
#5 bronzebeard Oct 07, 2008 4:26:16	Nope. Just floating around, seeing where I can get this. I don't need to choose today so I got the time to spare and see where can I take this Character Weapon will, indeed, help with some MAD issues but taking the swashbuckler class as a means to gain seems suboptimal since you lose both bardic abilities and spellcastings which works against what I'm intending.
#6 yawar Oct 07, 2008 17:27:42	Considered taking Music of the heart and Words of Creation and using the spell inspirational boost. That way you can give a a nice +8 to to hit and to damage at lvl9 you add a +6 due to inspire greatness. With those boost you can deal obcene amounts of damage with darts, daggers, rapiers or even you may pick up a bow and start shooting shooting your enemies your non-proficiency is overshadowed by your +14.
#7 bronzebeard Oct 08, 2008 8:08:16	I am unfamiliar with Music of the heart. Maybe I missed it somehow... And if I'm not mistaken then Words of Creation have the disadvantage of subdual damage. I think. Also, I don't think that I can sing and shoot at the same round. I'll have to check that, thought I quit positive that both are standard actions. My build (at least basically) is somewhere around this: Race: Human (maybe with dracon template - I need to clear that up with the DM). Class: emm... start with bard 2 as I said so earlier. I'll use the bard knack alternate. 1st> Jack of All Trades, Nymph's Kiss 3rd> Probably Obtain Familiar Somewhere I'll need melodic casting and I think I'll take a flaw. Dunno. I looked at the lyric thaumaturge PrC and the Sublime Chord. (I also looked at seeker of the song but frankly, it seems as if it's taking away too much and leaving you gasping for air - abilities). Both seems nice. They both boost spell casting - which is the best ability. How do you think that each one of them can be used to maximized effect? But my first questions stand still: How would you make any of the following without severely eliminating your bardic music and spellcasting (otherwise you can just pick up a fighter, barbarian or Tripper-Chain-Gunner-Omgoz I waxed this guyz lolz. Seriously, it's no fun): A bard with good strenght score (14+)? A bard with a good dex score (14+)? A melee oriented bard? A shooter bard (or range, or I stand far 'cauze I don't want to get hurt and I'l sing, emo type :P )?
#8 Senevri Oct 08, 2008 8:29:09	Also, I don't think that I can sing and shoot at the same round. I'll have to check that, thought I quit positive that both are standard actions. starting a Bardic Music effect is a STD. action. keeping it going is free, AFAIK. However, there are feats which modify the situation. (Melodic Casting for spells, Song of the White Raven, I think, for initiators, at least.)
#9 bronzebeard Oct 27, 2008 8:50:19	Song of the White Raven Well... unfourtunatly, as I already stated, I will not incooperate abilities from the ToB (or arcanum, or whatever). emmm... my DM just told me that everything of my choice is cool but taking a familiar. So, I am not able to have one. boo hoo. Maybe I'll try to persuade him otherwise... I'll be taking the draconic tamplate. It's seems a waste to not to. I'm pondering as to which feats should I take. For 1st level I have Melodic Casting, Jack of all trades and Nymph's Kiss as the three most helpful. The latter of them seems the weakest but by delaying it till next time (3rd level) I'm skipping on 2 skill points. =< And I'm still wondering as to Str vs. Dex Things like weapon finesse weight the scales towards being dexterous but then I won't have a much of a dmg output and by taking arcane duelist I can have sufficient AC to stand my ground in melee but I'll be using a 2H weapon which will make the finesse thing obsulite. On the third hand, 2 leves dip into the arcane duelist will lower bardic abilities, namely Bardic Music and Spellcasting. AAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHH. I dunno what to do...
#10 yawar Oct 27, 2008 9:19:06	Music of the heart is a feat from the dragonlance campaing setting, it adds a +1 to every bardic music effect. With that feat and words of creation you give +6d10 +(6*CON) as temporary hit points and take 9d4 subdual damage. Average damage: 22,5 + 7,5(if you inspire courage) = 30 Average Temporary hit points: 33 + 6*CON As you can see the damage from words of creation is overcompensated, and even a commoner would give a decent fight with +14 to attack and damage and 30 bonus hit points. Humbly yours, Yawar Fiesta
#11 Wyvernhand Oct 27, 2008 12:48:13	If I was you, I'd go with Dragonfire Inspiration and Melodic Casting at level 1, and Song of the Heart (ECS) at 3. This gives you +1 to your IC. I don't really like Words of Creation, more because of the roleplaying requirements of being Exhalted, than the little bit of damage you take. That's just me though. At level 2, you'll be rocking a +2 bard song if you take Inspirational Boost as your 1st level spell. At level 3, you'll have a +3. As far as str/dex goes, if you stick with standard IC, you can take PA and a 2hander and max str and put up some nice numbers. You can also do it at range with the Bard spell Whirling Blade. If you go dex, use a 1hander, or 2 light weapons with TWF and use DFI. That'll give you the best damage output. Does draconic let you pick your heritage? A dragon like Battle Dragon or Pyroclastic Dragon will give you sonic damage in place of fire, which is less often resisted.
#12 Blade2718 Oct 27, 2008 21:15:29	Music [color=red]SONG[/color] of the heart is a feat from the dragonlance EBERRON campaing setting, it adds a +1 to every bardic music effect. Fixed it for you. Dragonfire Inspiration does not let you choose your heritage unless you're Dragonblood subtype (and/or Dragon type, not sure about this part). DFI is okay at lower levels since practically nothing at that point resists fire, but after 6th level, it starts to lose its luster.
#13 Wyvernhand Oct 27, 2008 22:29:58	I was refering to the fact that he was taking the draconic template. Wouldn't that make you dragonblooded? I don't think I've seen it, but if it has that option, definitely take it.
#14 empirate Oct 29, 2008 12:29:25	As builds go, I like what I'd call the "magical bard". Starts out as a normal bard with an emphasis on utility and buff spellcasting and goes to increase this emphasis more and more the longer the campaign goes. I also like the concept of strict neutrality with a going-where-the-wind-blows, no-obligations-sir, can-you-make-that-worth-my-while? personality. Here goes: Human, alignment N (reasoning: Human is obvious. Mindbender goodness with Mindsight and Doomspeak make up for lost exalted feats, so N alignment is more than just OK) Levels in order: Bard 5/Mindbender 1/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 6/Fatespinner 4. (reasoning: I don't like lost caster levels, so no Virtuoso. LT is good filler until SC can be taken, even adds some spellcasting flexibility. SC is taken up to 6 for Song of Timelessness, an often overlooked ability which I like a lot. Fatespinner 4 is the perfect rounding-out class, especially paired with the Doomspeak feat. Order can also be changed to SC1-2, Fatespinner4, SC3-6. Or you can replace SC3-6 with anything that strikes your fancy) Abilities: Cha>Int>Con>Dex>Wis>Str (reasoning: we need a lot of skillpoints and HP. Cha is a no-brainer for a primary caster, which is what this character becomes later on). Feats: Melodic Casting [Human Bonus] (generally great for Bards, saves on skillpoints), Extra Music [1] (very useful at early levels, good for Lyric Spell later on), Versatile Performer [3] (lets you take advantage of different masterwork instruments in Complete Adventurer, helps if your favorite lute gets broken), Mindsight [6] (you now have Telepathy from Mindbender 1, might as well take advantage of it!) Lyric Spell [9] (versatility is key, spellcasting is versatility), Doomspeak [12] (ultra-powerful debuff; we can't get exalted feats but we can get this!) Open Feat [15] Open Feat [18] For the open Feats, consider Rapid Metamagic and Quicken Spell. Extra Spell might also be worth it. Not must-haves, though. Versatile Performer is not necessarily optimized, but makes for a bit of added versatility and a more rounded-out character. Consider other feats instead, though.