3.5 Charisma based primary combatant - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

3.5 Charisma based primary combatant

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jesse_ninja
May 09, 2009 8:08:26 So my friend decided to make a new campaign for us, so far the party is a psuedodragon mystic theurge, an elven ranger and me. I have a character concept but i don't know how to execute this. He is alot like the green lantern Jack T. Chance in that he is destined to be a paladin but he has a past, is really showy and is of questionable ethics.

pretty much all books are allowed, we are starting at level 7. if you guys have any tips on getting SAD for charisma that would be awesome. I am willing to take levels in classes other than paladin before he becomes a paladin
#2
lormador
May 09, 2009 8:14:35 Marshall has some great Charisma stuff, it's good for a dip.

A level of Barbarian will open up Intimidating Rage + Imperious Command, since it requires Charisma 15. Extra Rage can fuel them, and you're melee anyway so.... Paladin of Freedom! Barbarian can net you pounce too.
#3
jesse_ninja
May 09, 2009 10:33:56
Marshall has some great Charisma stuff, it's good for a dip.

A level of Barbarian will open up Intimidating Rage + Imperious Command, since it requires Charisma 15. Extra Rage can fuel them, and you're melee anyway so.... Paladin of Freedom! Barbarian can net you pounce too.

Marshal doesn't get combat buffs from a high charisma, the get check buffs
#4
Wyvernhand
May 09, 2009 13:19:48 I made a build once that was like:

Paladin5/Fighter2/DivineCrusader2/OrdainedChampion4/FistofRaz7

Lots of Cha based smitage between Pal5, OC2, and FoR7, not to mention the ability to take Divine Might (CWarrior) to smack people up with your Cha modifier. Get a Sudden Stunning weapon (DMGII) and disable people with your Cha modifier. Of cource, Awesome Smite from CChampion is a nobrainer since you can tell people to SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP with your cha based smitage. Law Devotion also helps with PAing and uses TU attempts which synergize with Cha. Oh, and Cha based 9th level casting from any one domain + War domain. I suggest Travel as your other domain, though Spell and Magic work nicely.

The Fighter levels are mostly in there to grab bonus feats. Build is pretty feat intensive.
#5
dandu
May 09, 2009 13:28:46 There's always Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist8

Pick up the spell Whirling Blade and a few turning feats and you'll be good to go.
#6
Wyvernhand
May 09, 2009 13:34:18 Or Suel Arcanamach!

Paladin4/Duskblade2/Suel4/AbjurantChamp5/Spellsword1/DragonDisc4 is a solid build. Gets Divine Might, AbjChamp goodness, 20% ASF reduction (Mithril Full Plate if you want), a great CL thanks to AbjChamp5's Martial Caster ability, and a good selection of combat buff spells from Transmutation and Illusion (oh, and Abjuration and Diviniation...). Bite of the Werewolf/bear + Autoquickened Shield and you are ready for melee!
#7
carnivore
May 09, 2009 13:37:39 it depends on how you make the Build.... here are some useful Combat Buffs that Marshals get... and how you can Use them:

Art of War: Bonus on disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts.

Motivate Dexterity: Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks.

either one will work just fine.... depending on the Build.... heres how i would use them with ECL 11:

Dex + Cha based focus

Human
Marshal 1/ Paladin 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master thrower 5

Marshal Aura: Motivate Dexterity
Master thrower Tricks:[indent]
Palm Throw – Each attack with little thrown weapons (i.e., daggers, shuriken, & darts) can be with two of the weapons. Do not apply your Strength modifier to the damage of either.

Trip Shot – On a successful thrown weapon attack, you can make a Trip Attack in addition to the damage. Make a Dexterity check with a +4 bonus opposed by your the opponent’s Strength or Dexterity check (whichever is better). Advantages such as ‘Stability’ apply. Bonus from Feat: Improved Trip do not apply.

Weak Spot – When attacking an opponent of your size or larger, you may make a Ranged Touch Attack (instead of a Normal Ranged Attack), though you may not apply your Strength modifier to the damage. You may only take this trick as a 5th level Master Thrower.[/indent]

since this build can throw 2 weapons with one attack.... it gives a very high number of attacks.... and Trip Shot is a Dex based Check... thus Marshal Aura helps here

assuming 32pt buy... it would look like this:

10 Str(10)
18 Dex(14 +2 lvls + 2 item)
14 Con(14)
14 Int(14)
10 Wis(10)
18 Cha(16 +2 Item)

Dex + Cha to Initiative
Dex to Attack
Dex to Attack
Int to Damage

Trip Attack = (Dex+Cha+4 +4) vs opponent Str or Dex

feats:
JotunBrud(human Bonus)
Skill Focus(Diplomacy)(marshal bonus)
Weapon Finnesse(Swashbuckler bonus)
Quickdraw(Master Thrower bonus)
Imp Crit(Dagger)(Master Thrower bonus)
Snatch Arrows(Master Thrower bonus)
1st lvl: Point Blank Shot
3rd lvl: Precise Shot
6th lvl: Weapon Focus(Dagger)
9th lvl: TWF

BAB +10

full attack with TWF + Imp TWF(Gloves of the Balanced hands(MIC)) + Palm throw=

+9/+9/+9/+9/+4/+4/+4/+4

then Add on additional bonuses from GMW, Haste, etc...

Trip Attack = +16... at range , plus Damage

you can do something similar with a Str + Cha based Build... using Marshal Aura: Art of War

:D
#8
CantripN
May 09, 2009 14:02:07 Personally, I find a simple Bard with optimised Inspire Courage best. Later, go for Sublime Chord.

My own Bard got to +14d6 Sonic damage per hit before the the campaign ended (level 12).

Combine that with Crusader or Warblade, perhaps, using Janus Jones idea, if you prefer, so that you use Song of the White Raven. Aura of Chaos sounds fun when you have so many dies rolling.
#9
carnivore
May 09, 2009 14:05:57 Bard + Marshal is awesome for so many things....exa:

Bard 7/ Marshal 3/ Sublime Chord 2/ Storm Singer 8

can do a lot ....

:D
#10
CantripN
May 09, 2009 14:22:26 I like my Inspire Heroics, myself. That, together with a certain item and Words of Creation can get you tons of Temp. HP, as well as other perks. So you need Bard 9, leaving you but one level, which I used for Warblade, IIRC.

Marshal would've been just as good, though. I simply wanted IHS and WRT.
#11
true_shinken
May 09, 2009 14:24:30 Omg, no one mentioned Bard/Crusader yet? Outrageous!
#12
CantripN
May 09, 2009 14:27:43 Look up :heehee
#13
Senevri
May 10, 2009 4:04:40 ...Thunderlance specialist?
Instead of using
your Strength modifier,
you use the higher of
your Intelligence modifier or Charisma
modifier as a bonus on attack rolls and
damage rolls

Also, 4 square reach.

A little bit of Marshal, a little bit of Crusader, a bit of Bard, Sublime Chord snatches Thunderlance, Arcane Thesis, empower, maximize... oh, and blade of force. Gets 9th spells with the usual "1 level of Jade Phoenix before 11th, 11th is SubChord, rest is Jade Phoenix" trick.

Oh, and Arcane Duelist: 3 levels, Dextrous Attack so so easy to abuse with a base weapon damage of 3d6....

"Master of Tactics" + Clarion Commander, Mmmm.... "Motivate Attack"...

So, Marshal 2/Bard 4/Crusader 1/AbjChamp3/SubChord1/JPM 5/ArcDue3 (19 levels) gets:
- 2x Cha to attack with Thunderlance
- 2x Cha to damage after Clarion Commander is active
- Cha to AC

Loses 4 CL from the SubChord rebuild, though.
Moar MA can progress JPM. JPM is fullbab.
Moar Melee + Casty can progress AbChamp a bit. Probably your best bet.

Now let's see... BAB should be bad... 1+3+1+3+0+5+1 = +14.
Thunderlance deals 3-18 damage, we can drop that to 3-4 and add +14 to our attack.
Total attack bonus: 28+2xCHA
Thunderlance can be wielded in two hands. This means, damage will be 3-4 + 2.5*cha.
(+ 0.5x3d6 with empower.)
Can you say "Power Attack"?
Sample math: Human, starting Cha 18 (we're dumping everything for it, after all)
gets Cha 34 trivially, (tome, +6 item) for +12 bonus.
So, AC 22 right there. +8 bracers, +3 at least, Dex, +5 ring, nets 38 AC. Average 2h AC for 20th.

But, back to the fun stuff: Attack Bonus math becomes +52. Damage math becomes 31-32.
we can 2-h power attack for 14, soooo.... Attack bonus +38, damage 59-60.
It's such a shame... Wait, if we do a radical thing and drop Abchamp and fill in with JPM, we get Diamond Nightmare Blade. Must delay SubChord by 1 level, but since we never finish that anyway, it's doable.
So, same math, but damage goes to 236-240 for DNB. This is only if JPM counts for Swordsage and Warblade despite not having any levels. Otherwise, we're limited to devo + desert, which has, for 13 to 17 ILs...
mm, flashing sun, thicket of blades, inferno blade. IB adds IL to damage for a round,which is nice. Shame we only get three, four attacks. Oh, also Stone Dragon, but there's not much there. Mountain Tombstone is nice, but maybe not accessible.
#14
jameswilliamogle
May 10, 2009 9:53:12 Paladin of Tyranny / Blackguard / Binder / Knight of Sacred Seal / Tenebrous Apostate

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jesse_ninja May 09, 2009 8:08:26	So my friend decided to make a new campaign for us, so far the party is a psuedodragon mystic theurge, an elven ranger and me. I have a character concept but i don't know how to execute this. He is alot like the green lantern Jack T. Chance in that he is destined to be a paladin but he has a past, is really showy and is of questionable ethics. pretty much all books are allowed, we are starting at level 7. if you guys have any tips on getting SAD for charisma that would be awesome. I am willing to take levels in classes other than paladin before he becomes a paladin
#2 lormador May 09, 2009 8:14:35	Marshall has some great Charisma stuff, it's good for a dip. A level of Barbarian will open up Intimidating Rage + Imperious Command, since it requires Charisma 15. Extra Rage can fuel them, and you're melee anyway so.... Paladin of Freedom! Barbarian can net you pounce too.
#3 jesse_ninja May 09, 2009 10:33:56	Marshall has some great Charisma stuff, it's good for a dip. A level of Barbarian will open up Intimidating Rage + Imperious Command, since it requires Charisma 15. Extra Rage can fuel them, and you're melee anyway so.... Paladin of Freedom! Barbarian can net you pounce too. Marshal doesn't get combat buffs from a high charisma, the get check buffs
#4 Wyvernhand May 09, 2009 13:19:48	I made a build once that was like: Paladin5/Fighter2/DivineCrusader2/OrdainedChampion4/FistofRaz7 Lots of Cha based smitage between Pal5, OC2, and FoR7, not to mention the ability to take Divine Might (CWarrior) to smack people up with your Cha modifier. Get a Sudden Stunning weapon (DMGII) and disable people with your Cha modifier. Of cource, Awesome Smite from CChampion is a nobrainer since you can tell people to SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP with your cha based smitage. Law Devotion also helps with PAing and uses TU attempts which synergize with Cha. Oh, and Cha based 9th level casting from any one domain + War domain. I suggest Travel as your other domain, though Spell and Magic work nicely. The Fighter levels are mostly in there to grab bonus feats. Build is pretty feat intensive.
#5 dandu May 09, 2009 13:28:46	There's always Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist8 Pick up the spell Whirling Blade and a few turning feats and you'll be good to go.
#6 Wyvernhand May 09, 2009 13:34:18	Or Suel Arcanamach! Paladin4/Duskblade2/Suel4/AbjurantChamp5/Spellsword1/DragonDisc4 is a solid build. Gets Divine Might, AbjChamp goodness, 20% ASF reduction (Mithril Full Plate if you want), a great CL thanks to AbjChamp5's Martial Caster ability, and a good selection of combat buff spells from Transmutation and Illusion (oh, and Abjuration and Diviniation...). Bite of the Werewolf/bear + Autoquickened Shield and you are ready for melee!
#7 carnivore May 09, 2009 13:37:39	it depends on how you make the Build.... here are some useful Combat Buffs that Marshals get... and how you can Use them: Art of War: Bonus on disarm, trip, bull rush, and sunder attempts. Motivate Dexterity: Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks. either one will work just fine.... depending on the Build.... heres how i would use them with ECL 11: Dex + Cha based focus Human Marshal 1/ Paladin 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master thrower 5 Marshal Aura: Motivate Dexterity Master thrower Tricks:[indent] Palm Throw – Each attack with little thrown weapons (i.e., daggers, shuriken, & darts) can be with two of the weapons. Do not apply your Strength modifier to the damage of either. Trip Shot – On a successful thrown weapon attack, you can make a Trip Attack in addition to the damage. Make a Dexterity check with a +4 bonus opposed by your the opponent’s Strength or Dexterity check (whichever is better). Advantages such as ‘Stability’ apply. Bonus from Feat: Improved Trip do not apply. Weak Spot – When attacking an opponent of your size or larger, you may make a Ranged Touch Attack (instead of a Normal Ranged Attack), though you may not apply your Strength modifier to the damage. You may only take this trick as a 5th level Master Thrower.[/indent] since this build can throw 2 weapons with one attack.... it gives a very high number of attacks.... and Trip Shot is a Dex based Check... thus Marshal Aura helps here assuming 32pt buy... it would look like this: 10 Str(10) 18 Dex(14 +2 lvls + 2 item) 14 Con(14) 14 Int(14) 10 Wis(10) 18 Cha(16 +2 Item) Dex + Cha to Initiative Dex to Attack Dex to Attack Int to Damage Trip Attack = (Dex+Cha+4 +4) vs opponent Str or Dex feats: JotunBrud(human Bonus) Skill Focus(Diplomacy)(marshal bonus) Weapon Finnesse(Swashbuckler bonus) Quickdraw(Master Thrower bonus) Imp Crit(Dagger)(Master Thrower bonus) Snatch Arrows(Master Thrower bonus) 1st lvl: Point Blank Shot 3rd lvl: Precise Shot 6th lvl: Weapon Focus(Dagger) 9th lvl: TWF BAB +10 full attack with TWF + Imp TWF(Gloves of the Balanced hands(MIC)) + Palm throw= +9/+9/+9/+9/+4/+4/+4/+4 then Add on additional bonuses from GMW, Haste, etc... Trip Attack = +16... at range , plus Damage you can do something similar with a Str + Cha based Build... using Marshal Aura: Art of War :D
#8 CantripN May 09, 2009 14:02:07	Personally, I find a simple Bard with optimised Inspire Courage best. Later, go for Sublime Chord. My own Bard got to +14d6 Sonic damage per hit before the the campaign ended (level 12). Combine that with Crusader or Warblade, perhaps, using Janus Jones idea, if you prefer, so that you use Song of the White Raven. Aura of Chaos sounds fun when you have so many dies rolling.
#9 carnivore May 09, 2009 14:05:57	Bard + Marshal is awesome for so many things....exa: Bard 7/ Marshal 3/ Sublime Chord 2/ Storm Singer 8 can do a lot .... :D
#10 CantripN May 09, 2009 14:22:26	I like my Inspire Heroics, myself. That, together with a certain item and Words of Creation can get you tons of Temp. HP, as well as other perks. So you need Bard 9, leaving you but one level, which I used for Warblade, IIRC. Marshal would've been just as good, though. I simply wanted IHS and WRT.
#11 true_shinken May 09, 2009 14:24:30	Omg, no one mentioned Bard/Crusader yet? Outrageous!
#12 CantripN May 09, 2009 14:27:43	Look up :heehee
#13 Senevri May 10, 2009 4:04:40	...Thunderlance specialist? Instead of using your Strength modifier, you use the higher of your Intelligence modifier or Charisma modifier as a bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls Also, 4 square reach. A little bit of Marshal, a little bit of Crusader, a bit of Bard, Sublime Chord snatches Thunderlance, Arcane Thesis, empower, maximize... oh, and blade of force. Gets 9th spells with the usual "1 level of Jade Phoenix before 11th, 11th is SubChord, rest is Jade Phoenix" trick. Oh, and Arcane Duelist: 3 levels, Dextrous Attack so so easy to abuse with a base weapon damage of 3d6.... "Master of Tactics" + Clarion Commander, Mmmm.... "Motivate Attack"... So, Marshal 2/Bard 4/Crusader 1/AbjChamp3/SubChord1/JPM 5/ArcDue3 (19 levels) gets: - 2x Cha to attack with Thunderlance - 2x Cha to damage after Clarion Commander is active - Cha to AC Loses 4 CL from the SubChord rebuild, though. Moar MA can progress JPM. JPM is fullbab. Moar Melee + Casty can progress AbChamp a bit. Probably your best bet. Now let's see... BAB should be bad... 1+3+1+3+0+5+1 = +14. Thunderlance deals 3-18 damage, we can drop that to 3-4 and add +14 to our attack. Total attack bonus: 28+2xCHA Thunderlance can be wielded in two hands. This means, damage will be 3-4 + 2.5*cha. (+ 0.5x3d6 with empower.) Can you say "Power Attack"? Sample math: Human, starting Cha 18 (we're dumping everything for it, after all) gets Cha 34 trivially, (tome, +6 item) for +12 bonus. So, AC 22 right there. +8 bracers, +3 at least, Dex, +5 ring, nets 38 AC. Average 2h AC for 20th. But, back to the fun stuff: Attack Bonus math becomes +52. Damage math becomes 31-32. we can 2-h power attack for 14, soooo.... Attack bonus +38, damage 59-60. It's such a shame... Wait, if we do a radical thing and drop Abchamp and fill in with JPM, we get Diamond Nightmare Blade. Must delay SubChord by 1 level, but since we never finish that anyway, it's doable. So, same math, but damage goes to 236-240 for DNB. This is only if JPM counts for Swordsage and Warblade despite not having any levels. Otherwise, we're limited to devo + desert, which has, for 13 to 17 ILs... mm, flashing sun, thicket of blades, inferno blade. IB adds IL to damage for a round,which is nice. Shame we only get three, four attacks. Oh, also Stone Dragon, but there's not much there. Mountain Tombstone is nice, but maybe not accessible.
#14 jameswilliamogle May 10, 2009 9:53:12	Paladin of Tyranny / Blackguard / Binder / Knight of Sacred Seal / Tenebrous Apostate