Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 xneoshadowx1 Feb 21, 2013 16:37:15	A few weeks ago my DM asked us to pick a class we never have tried before to get us out of our comfort zone and into different things. So looking at Divine classes I felt like making a Cleric due to the prospect of commanding undead i meet and raising undead minions. So i decided to create a Neutral Evil cleric of Nerull with the Death and Evil domains. Now we just leveled up to level 2 and so far I have become increasingly confused and dissuaded with my class choices etc due to a lack of doing anything besides wasting a spell and failing to rebuke some undead. Compared to the Barstool weilding fighter and psyionic we have im starting to wonder if im playing my guy currectly because i want to make a necromancer style Cleric who can summon undead and make undead do his bidding etc. I've just started looking at Libris Mortis to see what stuff is in that book and im wondering if i should have picked a different Diety and Domains, and what spells at level 2 are most useful for me to do and how i should try to look forward to when i progress in my character. I'm also confused with caster levels and if being a level 2 cleric with evil domain if i can cast a level 3 evil cleric spell (due to evil domain giving me a +1 to caster level when using evil spells). Any help or advice anyone could give me about how to expand and optimize my character would be greatly appreciated. Also homebrew/internet classes as well as book of the 9 swords is banned in the campaigne if that has any effects on possible cross class oppurtunities etc. I dont have my character sheet on me atm but i put my best score into wisdom, and divied up next few scores into STR, CHA, and CON and left Dex with a +1 and Intelligence with a 0 mod. playing a Human NE Cleric who so far has yet to state their name to the party (i am known as preacher man) and whos symbol of Nerull looks like a symbol of Wee Jas. Again any help anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated.
#2 StevenO Feb 21, 2013 17:53:24	A few things: 1.  The Evil Domain just increases your CASTER LEVEL and not you spellcasting level.  "Caster level" usually refers to the "level" number you plug into equations regarding your spells.  If you have a spell that deals 1d6 damage per caster level then having +1 caster level would get you +1 die of damage for that spell.  It DOES NOT let you cast higher level spells.  As a 2nd-level cleric you will only be able to cast 1st-level spells. "Level" is a problematic word in DnD because it refer to so many different things.  To make things worse those things are often related in some way so they may match up at times or be completely different at other times.  2.  I'll say I'm not a big fan of either the Evil Domain or the Death domain but of the two Death really sucks assuming you do any multiclassing.  I say this because Death's granted power is not only weak to begin with it is also tied directly to your Cleric level and thus doesn't improve if you multiclass.  At least with the Evil domain the increased caster level always applies.  The other thing I don't really like about them is that most of there spells are already available to a Cleric so you don't gain as much from domain spells. 3.  Often times the optimizers will tell you that you want to get Extended Spell (often from the Planning Domain), Persistent Spell, and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) to make yourself into a super buffer.  The way it works it you can spend turn attempts which are rarely used to turn what it normally a short term but very powerful buff spell into something that will last all day.
#3 draco1119 Feb 21, 2013 18:00:50	2.  I'll say I'm not a big fan of either the Evil Domain or the Death domain but of the two Death really sucks assuming you do any multiclassing.  I say this because Death's granted power is not only weak to begin with it is also tied directly to your Cleric level and thus doesn't improve if you multiclass.  At least with the Evil domain the increased caster level always applies.  The other thing I don't really like about them is that most of there spells are already available to a Cleric so you don't gain as much from domain spells. Death Devotion (Complete Champion Cheatyface) is pretty good, though. 3.  Often times the optimizers will tell you that you want to get Extended Spell (often from the Planning Domain), Persistent Spell, and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) to make yourself into a super buffer.  The way it works it you can spend turn attempts which are rarely used to turn what it normally a short term but very powerful buff spell into something that will last all day.  This is true, but from what I understand, Rebuke attempts are actually worthwhile. As for PrCs: check if your DM will let you go into Prestige Paladin (Unearthed Arcana) and use either Paldin of Tyranny or Paladin of Slaughter (LE or CE, respectively, and also in Unearthed Arcana).  You'll have to shift your alignment by one stage, but that isn't a big deal; Paladin of Tyranny is the better choice of the two.  Then you go into the Bone Knight (Eberron's Five Nations) PrC.
#4 piggyknowles Feb 21, 2013 18:11:51	OK, so what I know right now is... 1.  You're a human cleric 2 with the evil domain. 2.  You want to focus on spellcasting and undead. That's a start, but just barely.  What feats have you taken?  What is your other domain?  (Never mind, I see now that it's the Death domain.) What does the rest of your party look like?  (I'm guessing it contains some sort of fighter and some sort of psion - anything else?) To answer your question about caster level, caster level does NOT effect what spells you can cast.  Instead, spells have varying effects based on your caster level.  For example, Protection from Good lasts one minute per caster level.  Ordinarily, as a level 2 cleric, this means two minutes.  But because it is a spell with the [evil] tag, you get a +1 caster level when casting it, so it lasts three minutes for you. Anyhow, getting to your question on spells: It differs depending on domain access, but low level clerics don't have spells that can shut down encounters just yet.  Instead, I'd focus on debuffs (ie, spells that disable enemies or make them less dangerous), battlefield control (right now that means environmental hazards, basically), and maybe some light buffs. Here are some spells you might want to consider: Bless: It seems simple, but a +1 attack for you and all your allies for the combat is pretty solid, and will probably have a greater net effect than most else that you can do right now.  This spell is better the more allies you have; if you've only got one other guy swinging an axe around, it may not be worthwhile. Cause Fear: This is actually a pretty solid save or lose for the level.  Cast it, if they fail they're frightened for 1d4 rounds (which means they've got to do everything they can to flee from you, and if prevented from fleeing, they start cowering and can't take any actions).  If they succeed on their save, they're still shaken, which means a solid -2 across the board. Ice Slick: Frostburn.  Anybody in a decent sized area has to make a balance check or fall prone.  Even if they succeed on their balance check, they only move at half speed, and have to continue making balance checks each round they remain on the ice.  A couple of notes on balance checks.  First, heavily armored characters tend to have TERRIBLE balance checks at these levels (we're talking in the negatives), so this is especially nasty on them.   Second, anyone who makes a balance check without five ranks in balance - not a +5 bonus, but five actual ranks - is flat-footed while they're balancing.  That's most enemies - seriously, flip through the Monster Manual and tell me how many bad guys have five ranks in balance. Obscuring Mist: It's a quick way to gain concealment when needed.  Concealment helps keep you alive.  Especially potent against sneak attackers, since concealment prevents precision damage. Protection from Good: +2 bonus to AC and saves against good enemies is pretty decent at this level.  Blocking contact with summoned critters won't come up much, but it's cool when it does.  But best of all, this suppresses any mental control or possession.  It's the low-level equivalent of Mind Blank, and it's more or less essential against certain enemies. Rhino's Rush: Spell Compendium.  If you do want to charge into the fray, this doubles your damage as a swift action.  It's probably not the best spell for you unless you're built for it, but it's there. Shivering Touch (Lesser): Frostburn.  It's nothing compared to its big brother at third level, but still, 1d6 dex damage can come in handy.  Works well alongside tanglefoot bags and things.  Only really mentioning it for completion's sake, though. Summon Monster I: Not a lot that's great here, but the fiendish monstrous spider isn't too bad.  It can web a medium creature and it's got tremorsense and a weak poison.  If you use it to call any evil creatures it becomes an [evil] spell, so you get +1 caster level, meaning it lasts for three rounds instead of two. Summon Undead I: Libris Mortis.  You can't actually create undead yet, but you can summon one and fake it.  This is an [evil] spell, so you get +1 caster level, meaning it lasts for three rounds instead of two.  Summoning a human warrior skeleton is probably better than most of what you'd summon off the SMI list, although I still prefer the utility of the spider.  ...this isn't an exhaustive list.  Just some general thoughts on low level spells that are worth it.  If I know what feats and domains you have, this might change.  And I can also give you some build advice in general, too. OK, I see now that I totally missed that you have the Death domain.  Sorry.  Well, that's kind of sad - the Death domain looks really cool, but it's actually pretty terrible.  The thing is, domains are how you expand your spell list as a cleric.  Every single spell you get on the Death domain is the same as a spell you ordinarily get at that level, so it doesn't give you anything new or interesting.  And the granted power sounds cool, but it only works on low HP enemies that could probably be killed easier by just attacking them. Check out Complete Champion, and see if you can trade it out for the Death Devotion feat.  This lets you power up your weapon with negative energy, so that it deals negative levels on a hit.  Negative levels are a powerful debuff - and against enemies with only one hit die, they kill.  At your level, Death Devotion can more or less be a save or die. What feats do you have?
#5 xneoshadowx1 Feb 21, 2013 18:28:46	I took for Feats combat casting because i've heard its nice for any magic caster when in the middle of combat, and i believe the Turning in completes Divine that would allow me to turn/rebuke 1.5 more undead after adding charisma bonus and such. If need be i believe my DM will allow me to swap a few things since im new at cleric in general so if you have any Feats that would be helpful at 2nd level and then at 3rd lemme know. And yeah i liked Death because of Death touch and wasnt sure if Libris Mortis was banned or not. If you have better domains i should look into i dont mind looking around and such and seeing what i can work out with my DM. I Agree with Cause Fear as a spell as i've seen it work during a bar fight (hence where our fighter got his bar stool). Rest of party = Kenku (little bird creature) Rogue, 2 Rangers one melee one ranged, psion, fighter and we might have one more joining next week if he gets better. I will make sure to take ice slick as a spell next time i get to my character sheet. Also thanks all for explaining combat casting....i was a bit excited to be able to use clutch of orcus at level 2 lol.
#6 piggyknowles Feb 21, 2013 18:42:28	With a party that big, mass buffs like Bless certainly won't go amiss. Anyhow, if you can, see if you can trade out the Death domain.  I would recommend either trading it away for the Death Devotion feat, or seeing if you can swap it out for the Divine Magician class feature from Complete Mage. Divine Magician, in a nutshell, means you lose a domain, but each level you can choose a wizard spell to add to your spell list.  The spell must be Abjuration, Divination or Necromancy.  At level one, I'm always a big fan of Ray of Enfeeblement.  It stays good for a long time, and it can really cripple enemies.  Next level, you've got a couple of good choices.  Kelgore's Grave Mist is a really nice area damage-over-time spell.  Command Undead is a great way to add no-save control over mindless undead, and it doesn't count against your rebuking cap.  Combat Casting really isn't a very good feat, unfortunately, but not too much you can do about it now, unless the DM offers re-training.  You can usually just take a five-foot step to avoid AoOs when casting, and by the middle levels, you can hit the DC for casting defensively guaranteed without needing the Combat Casting feat. Anyhow, for your third level feat, I might go ahead and pick up Fell Animate.  You won't be able to use it until you hit 5th level, and you won't be able to use it that WELL until 6th level, but it's worthwhile.  At fifth level, you can prepare a Fell Animate Inflict Minor Wounds to kill bleeding enemies with, and they rise under your control, without having to spend any money on expensive onyx.  At sixth level, you can take Divine Metamagic (Fell Animate).  Now you can spend four rebuke attempts to apply Fell Animate to any spell you cast.  Go ahead and use it cast Fell Animate on, say, Kelgore's Grave Mist.  Now anything you kill with your damage-over-time grave mist rises as your undead minion.  Way more efficient than prepping an Animate Dead for each one.
#7 xneoshadowx1 Feb 21, 2013 19:11:16	if he does allow retraining for feats what would suggest i take instead of combat casting? also i found the other feat, Empower Turning. is that good or not? i will deffinatly ask him if i can trade Death for Divine Magician or Death Devotion. Any other pointers or suggestions??
#8 draco1119 Feb 21, 2013 19:20:24	if he does allow retraining for feats what would suggest i take instead of combat casting? Extend Spell also i found the other feat, Empower Turning. is that good or not? No.  Hell no.  Oh Holy-Mary-Mother-of-God no.  Extra turning, yes.  Empower Turning, absolutely not. i will deffinatly ask him if i can trade Death for Divine Magician or Death Devotion. Any other pointers or suggestions?? I was just reading Libris Mortis (also referred to as The Book of Bad Latin) acouple days ago, and I vaguely remember a PrC that does what you're trying to do.  I just forget what it was.
#9 EruditeApe Feb 21, 2013 19:41:33	I was just reading Libris Mortis (also referred to as The Book of Bad Latin) acouple days ago, and I vaguely remember a PrC that does what you're trying to do.  I just forget what it was. It's crap. @OP: Look, you really need to completely rework your build. I suggest asking your DM to redo from th e ground up, a massive retcon, because, I'm sorry, but your build is pretty bad. Now, what you really need in feets is Extend, Persist, and DMM:Persist. Also, get out of Cleric and into PrCs the instant you are capable of doing so, as long as you do not lose caster levels. That is the most important rule. Now, buy a bunch of Nightsticks. Then roflstomp the universe. It's pretty straightforward.
#10 xneoshadowx1 Feb 21, 2013 19:55:21	I was just reading Libris Mortis (also referred to as The Book of Bad Latin) acouple days ago, and I vaguely remember a PrC that does what you're trying to do.  I just forget what it was. It's crap. @OP: Look, you really need to completely rework your build. I suggest asking your DM to redo from th e ground up, a massive retcon, because, I'm sorry, but your build is pretty bad. Now, what you really need in feets is Extend, Persist, and DMM:Persist. Also, get out of Cleric and into PrCs the instant you are capable of doing so, as long as you do not lose caster levels. That is the most important rule. Now, buy a bunch of Nightsticks. Then roflstomp the universe. It's pretty straightforward. What PrC's would you recommend going towards for being an evil legion of undead universe roflstomper?? and as i said my first cleric so theres always room for error and patches lol.
#11 draco1119 Feb 21, 2013 19:56:31	Now, buy a bunch of Nightsticks. To clarify: all you have to do is have in your possession one of these to gain an extra 4 turn/rebuke attempts per day.  It's debatable whether or not they stack.  There's nothing that says they do, but there's nothing explicitly saying they don't, either.  "Bonuses don't stack if they're from the same source" was never specifically applied to turn attempts.  Really, you're better off just using one, rather than being "that guy" whose usual reason is "the rules don't say I can't!"  If you do that, you are likely to be called Steve and beaten with a Holy Folding Chair +5.
#12 xneoshadowx1 Feb 21, 2013 21:30:42	Thanks all for the advice, hopefully i can get the DM to show mercy to let me do a few changes lol. If i have any more questions probably when we might be getting close to PrC time i might ask for opinions and if anyone has any more advice please go ahead and share, the more information the better.
#13 xneoshadowx1 Feb 28, 2013 0:47:54	Update* My DM allowed me to switch my feats and take the Divine Magician class feature! now my only concern is the fact that I have yet to heal anyone in our campaign and the others are getting suspiciouse of me....maybe more because twice i accidently summoned Hell hounds or something close to that due to various reasons. but other words if my character live and doesnt get lynched im gonna see how well i can do with getting to level 6 and starting an undead army at some point.
#14 vortsukoto Feb 28, 2013 1:10:37	Wand of Cure Light Wounds will keep 'em patched up. I've also found that once you persist Vigor spells on people, they don't ask for healing ever again.