This is a follow-up to a question that I posted some months ago and here I am, needing your incredible skills again
Setting: core only (no XPH) and a relatively low-magic one at that (i.e. getting magic items will be tricky at best)
Race: Gray Elf, though other elven subraces are under consideration.
Class: Must mainly be a primary caster, probably a wizard. Elven generalist is not out of the question, despite coming from RotW. Cleric is not out of the question either, though in that case Gray Elf sounds rather suboptimal (other Elven subraces are not out of the question though, see above). Druid is out
Stats: rolled very high :D Before racial mods: 16, 16, 15, 15, 14, 14.
Questions:
1. Is there anything better I can do than wizard all the way? Specialization?
2. Given the very high stats I rolled, I feel a distinct urge to multiclass in some way (just a 1-level dip or something along the lines of "I don't want to lose caster levels but I do want to be able to contribute something to the party if I'm out of spells"). For example, do you feel that the benefits of the Eldritch Knight outweigh the loss of 2 CL's?
Thanks in advance,
Durandal 1707
Assuming you can't trade points in one stat for another, I also advise 14/15/16/16/15/14, which after Gray Elf racial mods, becomes 12/17/14/18/15/14.
And in a typical core environment, nothing justifies losing a caster level for a primary caster.
Gray Elf
Ranger 2/ Wizard 6/ Eldritch Knight 10/ Archmage 2
lots of fun.... easy to play, works great in low Magic Campaign... Skills rule in Low Magic Setting
:D
Domains: Travel and Trickery
1- point blank shot
3-rapid shot
6-precise shot
9- quicken spell
12-manyshot
15-far shot
18-skill focus: knowledge (shiny objects)
Two things I forgot to say in the first place: polymorph will be rather restricted as well
Also, we will be beginning at 1st level, so low level survivability would be a good thing... however, not at the cost of optimality! ;)
In a core-only environment, casters are the most powerful characters. I advise Gray Elf Conjurer or Transmuter7/Loremaster6/ArchmageX/LoremasterX/WizardX.
[...]
And in a typical core environment, nothing justifies losing a caster level for a primary caster.
So... yes on the specialization, eh? However, don't the two barred schools hurt a bit?
As for the lost caster level:
Ranger 2/ Wizard 6/ Eldritch Knight 10/ Archmage 2
lots of fun.... easy to play, works great in low Magic Campaign... Skills rule in Low Magic Setting
So... being a spell level (and a half) behind doesn't hinder the build? Or do the benefits from the full BAB/skills/HP's/etc outweigh the cost?
Thanks again
Durandal 1707
PS: As for the cleric archer, is it really effective w/o Zen archery and all the DivM broken goodies? I mean, cleric spells mainly buff Str, not Dex... I fear that a core clerical archer will be falling behind in the damage curve.
Too bad you can't convince your DM to use the Pathfinder version of the wizard class...
PS: As for the cleric archer, is it really effective w/o Zen archery and all the DivM broken goodies? I mean, cleric spells mainly buff Str, not Dex... I fear that a core clerical archer will be falling behind in the damage curve.
You'll still have 18 dex if you put a 16 into dex so I think you'll be fine.
A core cleric archer has plenty of damage boosters:
Quickened divine favor
divine power
greater magic weapon
aid
You'll still have 18 dex if you put a 16 into dex so I think you'll be fine.
A core cleric archer has plenty of damage boosters:
Quickened divine favor
divine power
greater magic weapon
aid
He'd have to change subrace; gray elves get their bonus to INT. 16 DEX 15 WIS, OTOH, is ample in core.
You'll still have 18 dex if you put a 16 into dex so I think you'll be fine.
A core cleric archer has plenty of damage boosters:
Quickened divine favor
divine power
greater magic weapon
aid
Aid doesn't add to damage
And with an archery build, I do lose the magnificent bonuses that righteous might gives to melee types (which to me seems one of the main advantages of Clr in core).Anyway, with an 18 to Dex and a 14 Str (I probably shouldn't be a gray elf for Clr), here's some number crunching for the build you suggested:
Assumptions: PB range and different kinds of composite Longbows so that I always get Max Str bonus w/o penalties.
Clr1: Point Blank Shot
Clr3: Rapid Shot
Clr6: Precise Shot
Clr9: Quicken Spell
Clr12+: Whatever
Clr1: +5, damage 1d8+3
With 1 round prep time (DF): +6, 1d8+4
Let's say I get a MW bow at lvl 3. I'm also using Rapid Shot now
Clr3: +6/+6, damage 1d8+3
W/prep (DF): +7/+7, damage 1d8+4
Now I can use GMW on my bow to make it +1 for most of the "active" part of the day.
Clr6: +8/+8, damage 1d8+4
W/prep (DF): +10/+10, damage 1d8+6
Finally, access to Quickened DF and Divine Power
Maybe even +2 Dex from an item and a second bow for +5 Str bonus!Clr9: +12/+12/+7, damage 1d8+5
W/prep (DP+QDF): +18/+18/+13, damage 1d8+11
Clr12: +16/+16/+11, damage 1d8+6
W/prep (DP+QDF): +23/+23/+18/+13, damage 1d8+13
Clr15: +18/+18/+13/+8, damage 1d8+6
W/prep (DP+QDF): +27/+27/+22/+17, damage 1d8+14
Clr18: +21/+21/+16/+11, damage 1d8+7
W/prep (DP+QDF): +32/+32/+27/+22/+17, damage 1d8+16
Great attacks, but the damage does seem kind of low. Of course, I recognize that he still has (good!) spells, but he will necessarily be losing on metamagic, item creation etc...
In short, do you feel that this build is better than a straight wizard?
Cheers,
Durandal 1707
So... yes on the specialization, eh? However, don't the two barred schools hurt a bit?
That's what people used to think, but in practice, not so much. Very few people find use for enchantment as a school, for an example, and with a bit of experience, dropping Evocation is usually agreeable... or you might drop Necromancy, for flavor - you can manage without.
Especially at lower levels, one extra slot at each level is huge. In fact, it's often a good call to drop _three_ schools for Focused Specialist.
PS: As for the cleric archer, is it really effective w/o Zen archery and all the DivM broken goodies? I mean, cleric spells mainly buff Str, not Dex... I fear that a core clerical archer will be falling behind in the damage curve.
Really depends. An elf with Elven Chain can do quite well. You do not necessarily need an obscene dex or wis. Divine Power + Divine Favor are core, and with a proper Mighty bow, you can mostly ignore STR and still get a rather nice damage. On a high-powered game it's probably a bit under the power curve, though...
However, when quicken comes to play, and by using stackable boosts, a cleric archer can get rather nice boosts to hit and damage. Remember, most cleric boosts apply to ALL arrows. So with Rapid Shot and Speed bow, you'll have an attack pattern of :
+14/+14/+14/+9/+4.
A free +5 from magic weapon, fighter BAB, +3 from Divine Favor, at least +4 from DEX, and +1 from each bless, aid and prayer comes to +34/+34/+34/+29/+24, and damage should, with a properly mighty bow, have something like +14 to each shot - without elemental enchantments.
In addition, you have majority of your spells remaining, a decent AC and so forth.
It's not uber, but it's competitive, for the most part.
That being said, I still prefer wizards.
Bonuses to attack and damage rolls with your arrows comes from stacking different damage types. Divine favor and prayer give you a luck bonus, aid and bless give you a morale bonus, great magic weapon gives you an enchantment (and the trick with GMW is to get a +1 bow with +9 in special ability enhancement bonus so when you cast the spell you'll have a +5 bow with +9 in special abilities, and divine power gets you +6 to your str. And that's not even stacking the various special abilities like bane, alignment, and elemental damage bonuses.
Clr1: Point Blank Shot
Clr3: Precise Shot
Clr6: Rapid Shot
Clr9: Quicken Spell
Clr12: Improved Initiative
Clr15: Improved Precise Shot
Clr18: Spell Penetration
Craft Wondrous Item is also good for core-only if the game is low-magic but with decent amounts of downtime and cash. I think the important thing to remember is not to pigeon-hole yourself into being just an archer...a cleric has a lot of versatility regardless of feats.
I'd also recommend taking two bows along if you can afford it...a mighty bow for when you've got divine favor active, and a backup bow for when you don't have the strength to wield the good bow.
So... being a spell level (and a half) behind doesn't hinder the build? Or do the benefits from the full BAB/skills/HP's/etc outweigh the cost?
yes i do think the benifits of BAB/Skills/HP/class abilities/Feats DO outweigh the loss of a Spell level (and a half) .....
why to Wizards need to cast spells? .... to be able to handle what is thrown at them, since without spells they are almost useless... this way(my build) they are prepared without needing to cast a Spell
try this:
Gray Elf
Attributes: (16, 16, 15, 15, 14, 14)
12 Str(14 -2 racial)
18 Dex(16 +2 racial)
14 Con(16-2 racial)
18 Int(15 +2 racial+1 @4th)
14 Wis(14)
15 Cha(15)
(boost to Dex @8th, 12th, Boost to Int @ 4th, 16th, 20th)
Ranger 2/ Wizard 6/ Eldritch Knight 10/ Archmage 2
Progression:
Ranger 1 ......................... Track, Point Blank Shot
Ranger 2 ......................... Rapid Shot
Wizard 1 ......................... Scribe Scroll, Weapon Finnesse
Wizard 2
Wizard 3
Wizard 4 ......................... Spell Focus(Transmutation)
Eldritch Knight 1 ............... Quickdraw
Eldritch Knight 2
Eldritch Knight 3 ............... Spell Focus(Conjuration or illusion)
Eldritch Knight 4
Eldritch Knight 5
Eldritch Knight 6 ............... Skill Focus(Spellcraft)
Eldritch Knight 7
Eldritch Knight 8
Eldritch Knight 9 ............... Leadership
Eldritch Knight 10
Wizard 5 ......................... Quicken Spell
Wizard 6 ......................... Improved initiative
Archmage 1
Archmage 2
this is a very useful practical build that will work in any campaign....
@5th lvl
BAB +3
Base saves +4/+4/+3
cast 2nd lvl spells
great HP(compared with Wiz 5)
great Skills
can be effective in Melee, ranged and useful with a few spells
@10th lvl
BAB +8
Base Saves: +8/+5/+5 ...... very good for any character
cast 4th lvl spells(only 1 spell level behind)
still better in the other areas than Wizard
@ 15th
BAB +12
Base Saves: +10/+7/+7 ... almost what a 20th lvl Character will have(better than some)
cast 6th lvl Spells
@20th
BAB +16
Base Saves: +12/+8/+11
cast 9th lvl Spells
:D
I'd switch Rapid Shot and Precise Shot around on the build...the -4 from shooting into melee is a lot more painful at 3rd level than later on, especially once you tack on an additional -2 for each rapid shot.
[...]
Craft Wondrous Item is also good for core-only if the game is low-magic but with decent amounts of downtime and cash. I think the important thing to remember is not to pigeon-hole yourself into being just an archer...a cleric has a lot of versatility regardless of feats.
I'd also recommend taking two bows along if you can afford it...a mighty bow for when you've got divine favor active, and a backup bow for when you don't have the strength to wield the good bow.
Agreed with all of the above. Actually, the whole "just an archer" thing is the reason that I feel kind of iffy about being a clerical archer in core. It's not going to be easy to get magic items (even scrolls), so being able to produce your own is a definitive advantage...
Now, as for carnivore's build:
yes i do think the benifits of BAB/Skills/HP/class abilities/Feats DO outweigh the loss of a Spell level (and a half) .....
why to Wizards need to cast spells? .... to be able to handle what is thrown at them, since without spells they are almost useless... this way(my build) they are prepared without needing to cast a Spell
[...]
Again, thanks for the build! I do like the saves very much, I have to admit ;)
So, on the one hand we have a pure, unmodified wizard build. Good metamagic, spell focuses, item creation... arcane might and all that, but sucks when out of spells.
On the other hand, we have the cleric archer. Better combat ability and full spellcasting, just of a different kind. However, all those archery feats are a bit costly, leaving no room for crafting those pearls of power or those periapts (yes, I anticipate getting even those items to be quite hard).
Finally, in the middle there is the EK build: decent arcane might and decent archery skills. These both fall short of the above classes, but the combo does offer good saves and feats (+some nice extra abilities).
Hmmmmm... I'll have to think about it a bit more I feel...
Thanks again
Durandal 1707
If you get any magic items to start with pick a useful wand and then you can even re-charge it once you get the feat...
High Elf Cleric20 [Travel & Trickery Domains]
14/18/13/14/16/15
1: Point Blank Shot
3: Precise Shot
6: Craft Wondrous Item
9: Rapid Shot
12: Improved Initiative
15: Manyshot
18: Quicken Spell
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. A wizard should prepare for not having spells left by getting things like tanglefoot bags, scrolls, and party members. Being 3 levels behind the curve in gaining spells is a huge hit to the gut for a Wizard build.
the thing to remember is:
"Setting: core only (no XPH) and a relatively low-magic one at that (i.e. getting magic items will be tricky at best)"
in this setting a Gish Character usually functions better ...
in additon... the Ranger levels also allow the use of additional Magic Items that Wizard does not get:
Wand of Cure Light(Moderate,Serious) Wounds, etc... and Ranger/ & some Druid Spells
without Magic items.... equiped as follows, the gish will be fine:
(9000gp)(Core only)
500gp Masterwork Composite Longbow(+1 Str)
3020gp Adamantine Masterwork Rapier
1100gp Mithral Chain Shirt(+4 Armor, +6 max Dex, No Armor check, 10% ASF)
1015gp Mithral Buckler(+1 ,No Armor check, No ASF)
1500gp 25 Adamantine Arrows
misc: 2 light Warhorses, 2 riding Dogs, 6 Guard dogs.... Trained various tasks and Combat...... also some Daggers and Throwing Axes
given the previous Attributes .... the Gish will have these stats:
12 Str(14 -2 racial)
18 Dex(16 +2 racial)
14 Con(16-2 racial)
18 Int(15 +2 racial+1 @4th)
14 Wis(14)
15 Cha(15)
Ranger 2/ Wizard 3
Track
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Scribe Scroll
Weapon Finnesse
ATTACK abiltiy:
BAB +3 +4 Dex+ 1 Masterwork weapon = +8 Attack
Full attack with Ranged weapon(Bow or Thrown) = +6/+1
Damage:
Rapier 1d6+1 18–20/x2
Composite Longbow Arrows 1d8+1 x3
DEFENSE abillity:
AC 19 = Base 10 +4 Armor +4 Dex +1 Shield
HP 30 (10 Ranger 1st +6.5 +4.5+ 4.5+ 4.5)
Saves:
Base saves +4/+4/+3
Attributes +2/+4/+2
Total Saves = Fort +6/ Ref +8/ Will +5
Skills: (27+9+5+6+6= 53 Skill points)
suggested Skills:
1 rank Craft(Alchemy)
1 rank Decipher Script
5 ranks Handle Animal
1 rank Heal
5 ranks Knowledge (Arcana)
1 rank Knowledge (Architecture and engineering)
5 ranks Knowledge (dungeoneering)
5 ranks Knowledge (geography)
5 ranks Knowledge (nature)
1 rank Knowledge (Nobility and royalty)
1 rank Knowledge (Religion)
1 rank Knowledge (The Planes)
1 rank Profession(herbalist)
5 ranks Search
5 ranks Spellcraft
4 ranks Spot
5 ranks Survival
try to compete with a Core Wizard 5..... this will beat his butt
:D
Actually, the whole self-sufficiency makes me tend primarily towards a Wizard build (clerical archer is nice, but if I delay Quicken or any of the archery feats for one item creation feat, I think it suffers a lot).
The gish build is very nice, thanks carnivore! I just have to work around my fears of losing caster levels ;)
Cheers,
Durandal 1707
What are you Gaining with caster levels?
but if you dont want to go with a Gish build, then ........ the Cleric Archer(ranged specialist) is a great way to go in a Low-Magic campaign... CORE only .... but you dont have to limit yourself to only Bows
but i would do this:
Gray Elf
Cleric 15/ Thaumaturgist 5
12 Str(14 -2 racial)
18 Dex(16 +2 racial)
14 Con(16-2 racial)
16 Int(14 +2 racial)
15 Wis(15)
15 Cha(15)
Cleric 15/ Thaumaturgist 5
12 Str(14 -2 racial)
18 Dex(16 +2 racial)
14 Con(16-2 racial)
16 Int(14 +2 racial)
15 Wis(15)
15 Cha(15)
a better question .... rather than Blindly following percieved "Comandments"(not that you are):
What are you Gaining with caster levels?First off, I'm only talking about the wizard vs gish question.
In that case, here's what I see those extra wizard levels doing for me: more and better spells faster.
So, at lvl 5 I can throw that fireball (sorry, couldn't resist the stereotype ;) ) and I can also scribe it in scrolls for when my back is at the wall. And, in higher levels, we might even be talking about the difference between 5th and 7th level spells...
The same is true at every level: I think I feel more comfortable going into battle with more and better spells rather than with the ability to be decent at ranged combat. I feel that at difficult and deadly encounters, a maxed caster level will be much more potent. I dunno... speaking about lvl 5, I'm afraid that everyone will be giving me strange looks if I can only take up arrows against those two trolls coming at us instead of being able to fireball them into submission ;)
Let me ask you this in return (honest question here, I just don't have the experience ;) )in this setting a Gish Character usually functions better
Why is this? I can see the advantage of being good at ranged combat (I'm a bit iffy about melee though...) but the price tag is heavy
Cheers,
Durandal 1707
@5th lvl
Wizard 5 with 18 Int has the following spells:
4 @0-lvl, 4 @1st lvl, 3 @2nd lvl, 2@3rd lvl spells
if you use Fireball as his best spell .... he can do 5d6(ave 17 damage) damage twice Ref save DC 17 for 1/2(average 8 damage)
the Gish i made has this for spells:
4 @0-lvl, 3 @1st lvl, 2 @2nd lvl
but he can fire Arrows all day and do damage that has no Save, No SR ..... or can fight in Melee if needed:
Rapier 1d6+1 18–20/x2
Composite Longbow Arrows 1d8+1 x3 ... +1 damage additional if within 30'
it only take 3 Arrows to equal the Damage output of a Fireball at this level
not only can he dish out the Damage consistently(wizard can only do it 2 times) he can also take some damage before dropping.... he has better HP, AC, Saves
if faced with Trolls.... he can use Scorching ray..... or better yet... use that and Alchemist Fire and Acid
but since Combat is only a SMALL part of the day.... he has skills that make him very useful the rest of the time
:D
The reason I ask is if your a wizard and you don't have anyone up front to protect you, the it doesn't matter if you can throw 1 or 20 fireballs if your dead in the second round, you need HP and AC to live long enough to get the spells off, or better yet to be able to stand toe to toe with creatures, otherwise you will get squished or spend all your actions/rounds/spells just running away the entire combat while the rest of your party is killed, which means you will eventually die...
Where as a gish would be a much better party addition to a group with little to no fighter/meat support.
Though a party with heavy meat/fighter support and clerical support could use more Spell/wizard power and thus I would recommend going straight wizard.
As for crafting magical items, you can never tell how much you will need to, so I always try to wait to decide if I need the feat or not. Obviously in either build you could take craft wonderous item and make your own items. It probably hurts the gish build a bit, but if you are lacking in items you can still take it. Then you could create wands of CLW, or what not as you need.
I definitely think the Gish build gives you much more flexibility down the road, and skills are always useful, but it also depends on the GM style. Some GMs don't use skills a lot. My GM loves skills, I can never have enough skills, even craft skills for down time. Where as some GMs I've played with could use a single skill in an entire session. So a skill heavy character is useless, those I tend to pile all my skill points into a single skill to get them as high as I can. So again depends on your GM. If your not sure, I would rather error on the cautious side than be lacking down the road (4 sessions into a year long game)...
PS: You can always get your character killed and recreate him as the other... Or just ask your GM and tell him you would like to start over. Many GM's will allow this if you feel your character is not working out as you like, but you usually have to do this in the first 3 sessions.
Carnivore: I think low magic setting meant that there are not going to be a lot of items around. In that sort of an environment pure casters rock like no tomorrow.
at higher levels ... yes ...... to get to those higher levels it is far more difficult
Gish Builds are very Tough compared to Arcane Casters
But in a CORE only campaign ..... gish are even better ..... additional Source material makes surviving with Wizard 20 easy, but in CORE Only they have to struggle to survive .... unless as Syrkres said they have a Party that can adequately protect them ..... Gish tend to survive no matter what the Party is made up of.
also Gish can prepare Utility type Spells more often since they can use Weapons for Combat.... but the Pure Wizard is expected to prepare heavy Damage spells to Nuke the enemy
as for making Scrolls.... the Gish can do the same thing
if you want a Pure Arcane caster..... try this, its similar to what Endarire posted @ post #2:
Gray Elf
Wizard 7/ Loremaster 10/ Archmage 3
Attributes:
12 Str(14 -2 racial)
18 Dex(16 +2 racial)
14 Con(16-2 racial)
17 Int(15 +2 racial)
14 Wis(14)
15 Cha(15)
Feats:
Scribe Scroll(wizard bonus)
1st lvl: Skill Focus Knowledge(Arcana)
3rd lvl: Extend Spell
5th lvl: Craft Wand
6th lvl: Craft Wondrous item
8th lvl: Skill Focus(Spellcraft)(loremaster secret)
9th lvl: Quicken Spell
12th lvl: Spell Focus(Transmutation)
15th lvl: Spell Focus(Illusion)
18th lvl: Forge Ring or Craft Staff
Loremaster Secrets:
Bonus Feat
bonus 1st lvl spell
bonus 2nd lvl spell
+2 bonus on Fort saves
+2 bonus on Ref saves
Archmage high arcana:
Spell-Like Ability: Disintegrate: 4/day ... cost 9th lvl slot
Spell-Like Ability: Summon Monster 6 4/day ... cost 9th lvl slot
alternate High arcana:
Mastery of Elements
Mastery of Shaping
:D
No one has suggested Druid yet (or Monk 1 / Druid 19).
Strange day.
Wow.
No one has suggested Druid yet (or Monk 1 / Druid 19).
Strange day.
Druid is out
If only druid weren't out... ;)
At this stage I would have to ask what the rest of the party is? This should also play into what type of character you are playing?
Unfortunately, I don't know what the rest of the party is going to be (we are being kept in the dark intentionally, as part of the campaign's theme). So, I would like my character to be as self-sufficient as possible (and that's why I was looking for some ranged combat ability).
However, with all this said and done, I do believe that there will be a pure melee type in the party. That's why I'll start with a wizard build; if there's a fighter, all is good. If there isn't, I'll switch gears pronto and go into carnivore's gish build... I'll be losing some skill points and some hp's by not taking the levels in the correct order but that's ok, I'm willing to take the risk
Now, just a couple of questions:
1. Which metamagic feats do you think are the most useful? Quicken is an obvious choice (for later levels). Then I guess Extend is also good (cheap!
)... but what about Empower? Is it too expensive for core?2. Which schools give you the most mileage for spell focus? Most importantly, is SF worth it by itself or is it simply something people do to get into AM?
Cheers and thanks!
Durandal 1707
Quicken ....... for everything you need(if possible)
Extend ......... for Buffs
Empower ..... for Direct Damage
thats about it
2)Spell Focus for entry into Archmage mainly..... but Transmutation, and Illusion(you can use it for Evocation and Conjuration with Shadow Spells) i have found to be most useful
:D
1)for CORE only .... in this order:
Quicken ....... for everything you need(if possible)
Extend ......... for Buffs
Empower ..... for Direct Damage
thats about it
2)Spell Focus for entry into Archmage mainly..... but Transmutation, and Illusion(you can use it for Evocation and Conjuration with Shadow Spells) i have found to be most useful
:D
You've been most helpful, thanks a lot everyone
Cheers,
Durandal 1707
Feats:
Scribe Scroll(wizard bonus)
1st lvl: Skill Focus Knowledge(Arcana)
3rd lvl: Extend Spell
5th lvl: Craft Wondrous item
6th lvl: Craft Wand
You can also make items for other party members (who will hopefully give you extra GOLD), so you can make even more items for yourself (I charge extra based on XP costs).
Things to help you live longer...
- Cloaks of Protection
- Boots of Flying/striding
- Gloves of Deterity
And if your GM allows custom items(non DMG), you can really get creative, putting your spells into items. For example making a Orb of Fire Balls 1/day (3x5x2000)/(5/1) = 30,000 / 5 = 6,000 base (3,000 mats, 240xp, 6 days crafting). (WAND would cost 5,625 but only usable 50 times). The Orb you could later further enchant to usable 2/day or more, etc as you get more money/Xp/etc.
Then down the road you can add you can start adding other spells to the Ord (though costs a bit more, or create other neat items).
PS: I would probably never take Craft Wand.
I'd only go Wizard 7/Loremaster 10/Archmage 3 if going Epic - otherwise, I find Wizard 7/Loremaster 8/Archmage 5 gives better returns. Archmage 4-5 generally buys you Spell-Like Ability (extra 9th level slot)/Spell Power (obviously awesome) and Mastery of Counterspelling/Arcane Fire/Mastery of Elements (out of those, I tend to prefer Mastery of Counterspelling, although Mastery of Elements has some use - Arcane Fire has too high costs for the returns).
Vs that, Loremaster offers Analyze Dweomer/Legend Lore (yawn) and a Secret (probably +2 to Reflex/+4 to a skill at this point - 1st and 2nd level slots are already abundant anyways, the Pearls are cheap too, 3 HP is worthless, and the bonuses to attack and AC are miniscule). Spell Power/Spell-Like Ability are both way better than the last secret and True Lore, and while the last ability from Archmage is kinda meh, so is the Secret from Loremaster.
For my Secrets as Loremaster, I usually pick:
-Instant Mastery: UMD
-+2 Fort
-Feat (you're only using it for Archmage prerequisites anyways)
-+2 Will
EDIT: Oh yeah, in Core-only, I'd consider being a Diviner. You get to give up only Evocation (Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Bigby's, Wall of Force, Contingency, Enchantment (Sleep, Charm Person, Heroism, Hold Monster, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Symbols, Power Words, Confusion) or Necromancy (False Life, Enervation, Create Undead, Finger of Death, Clone, Astral Projection). I'd go with Evocation, since those are effectively all replicable via. the Illusion-spell "Greater Shadow Evocation" and almost as good.
Contingency is arguable through those means (mostly, it's a matter of whether you can intentionally believe in your own Shadow Spell), and the real clenching stone, but I wouldn't be willing to give up the early game Sleep, the simple Will SoDs, the Screw The Bard-Heroisms, and the one true no-save Lose in Otto's. Then again, those spells are practically all Mind Affecting, so their efficiency depends much on how many opponents are affected by Mind-spells.
Note how Divination tends to have at least one good spell per level in Core, and since you don't have Spontaneous Divination, you'd really want to have one prepared per day anyways. Here's what I'd prepare:
1. True Strike
2. See Invisibility
3. Tongues (if not Wanded), otherwise Clairvoyance
4. Detect Scrying
5. Contact Other Plane (Rary's should be Permanencied on the party)
6. Quickened True Strike/True Seeing
7. Greater Arcane Sight
8. Moment of Prescience
9. Foresight
Of course, the exact choices depend on what you've got prepared otherwise. That said, Moment of Prescience, Foresight, Contact Other Plane, See Invisibility, True Strike, Tongues and Greater Arcane Sight are all spells you'd want to use constantly anyways. True Seeing has a material component, so it may be better to keep around as a scroll.
EDIT#2: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that Red Wizard is the most powerful of the DMG PrCs. It simply comes with so much flavor baggage that it's a drag to use. Still, Red Wizard + Leadership = brutal (CL 40 for level 20 spells in no time). Then again, Anything + Leadership = brutal so meh (in fact, optimized Core-party would be all taking Leadership on level 6 and raising Charisma to maximize their Cohort).
Also, Thaumaturgist is a handy class, if a tad difficult to enter for a Wizard (since you need some way to cast a level 4 Cleric-spell - of course, in Core your best chance is Mystic Theurge or jumping through few hoops such as stating you use Limited Wish to replicate it). It does grant an extra Contingency, an extra Cohort and some improvements to Summons and Planar Ally, so it definitely pays the dividends if you get in (and the entry requirement is already an Archmage-prereq anyways).