Been a while since I played anything and got roped up in a core only game. I need some assistance optimizing and with build suggestions. We have a sorcerer who will probably go more evocation than anything, a thief/wizard (only stealth related magic), a melee cleric, a ranger, and myself. I WILL be doing mystic theurge, but the build is still up for debate on whether to go all 10 levels, etc.
We will be starting at 1st level, so if possible lets try to optimize it from 1-20 (not sure how long the game will go on)
So far my thoughts are:
Race: Gnome (for roleplay reasons, can change it but this is preferred race)
Levels: 3 diviner/3 cleric/10 theurge/4 archmage.
Diviner for the extra slot (can give up ench or evoc or necro), archmage for possibly the arcane reach (which if I remember correctly does not specify arcane only spells, unlike the master of elements or whatnot), maybe a spell like ability or counterspell/shaping. Possible domains, trickery and magic?
I am having trouble deciding how to focus the feats in this build. I also am not sure what sort of niche I want to fill with magic, or go for a more generalist can-do-anything approach. IE illusions, summoning, damage, etc. If you need more info let me know, please, and thanks a ton for the help. I am so rusty it hurts inside.
Perhaps a Booster type character to buff your allies would be the best use of this build. Since you will cast spells as a level 13 Cleric (lv6 spells) you're free to select the buff spells that your partys main healer cannot.
Likewise, once you hit ECL20, you'll have access to lv9 Arcane spells so perhaps working this part of your character into Battlefield Control would spare your party Sorceror's limited spells known and allow him to focus on blasting.
Just some ideas, really but with a class combination like this it's really down to your spell choice as to how powerful it gets.
Feat-wise?
Combat casting is always useful if you get ambushed alot though you will be staying back for the most part and causing havok among the enemy ranks.
Metamagic Feats such as Extend and Widen Spell can also be useful for that build (let the Sorceror go for the Empower/Maximize damage amplifiers).
Lightning Reflexes may well save your life later on - it's only +2 but all of Cleric, Wizard and Mystic Theurge have poor Reflex Save progression so unless you have a very high dex, that will be a weakness you may want to consider.
At higher levels creatures you fight will have Spell Resistance so the Spell Penetration tree would come into play (SR relies on Caster level - your caster levels at level 20 will be 13/17 for cleric/wizard respectively - slightly lower then a single classed character of the same level).
If you could post your main attributes here so we can see them and how you intend to spend your points, we can try working up from there.
Hope that helps some. Someone will be by shortly to dismiss all I say as bad optimizing... :D
Stats, let me see if I can recall them, we rolled them earlier this week with the DM.
STR 10 (8 if gnome)
DEX 14
CON 10 (12 if gnome)
INT 17
WIS 17
CHA 15
I can swap the numbers around (but they must stay the same obviously), but that is what I have so far.
Feats... I am a huge non-fan of combat casting. Skill focus gives one less at +3 but for ALL concentration rolls, not just casting defensively, if I wanted to go that route.
I was kind of interested in improved counterspelling, since I will have so many spells between cleric and wizard (by the way it's 7th level cleric spells, not 6th, with a 13 caster level, at 16th level). I also thought about grabbing Craft wonderous item since I doubt the sorcerer will be taking it, and I can make both cleric and wizard items. I also like the metamagic feats, and have thought about going for extend.
Still not sure about the build though, but with Core only, there is not a lot to do other than 3/3 wiz/clr to get into theurge.
I could do 4 levels of thaumaturgist instead of archmage, but not sure how worth it it is to have the cheaper ally spell. the extended summon and feat are good if I do summons, but is it really worth the 4 levels, especially later in the game?
Is there a particular way to make the character a fairly good summoner, or illusionist, as far as optimizing? Obviously I can cast those (and a lot of other stuff) and be done with it, but is there any optimization potential in that respect?
If going Archmage, what abilities are recommended? I definitely like arcane reach, 30ft if not 60, so I can help heal or use touch debuffs/buffs without getting in close to anyone.
*Edit: And yes, it was a good stat roll, wasn't it?
So, with theurge levels, I would have 13th level casting in one and 17th level casting in another (or more if taking spell power from archmage)... and both have undead and/or summoning spells available... any way to optimize that?
(and of course, I mean optimize insofar as we can optimize this core build... obviously it's not going to be uber strong but I would like to optimize it as MUCH as possible. I will edit the OP to include a level build as it gets fleshed out)
Edit:
I have decided to go with a summoner type of modus operandi. I will be using summon spells, animate dead, create undead, swarm spells, etc to create minions, and also taking the leadership feat. Any help with getting this as tricked out as possible would be appreciated
If you have access to the Complete Divine web enhacement, replace the Archmage levels with Dweomerkeeper ones. Yes, archmage has pretty kick@$$ abilities, but DwK allows that constant access to undead/summoning spells in the form of mantle of spells, which allow you to change any arcane or divine spell into the preset spell a la cleric spontanious casting. Add to it that it gets Arcane sight at 2nd and the ability to turn a spell into a supernatural effect at fourth, and you're golden. You just need an item creation and metamagic feat, have created a magic item (be it permanent or temp.), and pretty much the prereq.'s of M.T. Only boosts 1 casting class though.
Other than that, grab the summoning Reserve Magic feat from Complete Mage for more summoning fun.
That's all I can think of for now, I'll try to think of some more ideas later.
New-Shadow, thanks for the advice! I will pass those books on but I am going to bet on a 100% chance of no non-core material allowed. In such a case, do you have any other suggestions? I will post a level progression later that we can alter as needed.
Edit: Rusty, so could someone refresh my memory if archmage spell power ability would apply to both of my caster levels or just one? If so, 3 of those would net me 6 more caster levels for undead HD total.
Generally, the best archmage abilities are:
Spell Power
Spell like ability (give up one spell for two of higher level? yes, please!)
Reach Spell
Elemental Interchange for damage spells (if you are a blaster)
Master Counterspeller (counter their spell + send it back at them = 2:1 actions!)
==Aelryinth
2 cleric 1 Domain: Air (command air elementals) , Trickery (bluff skill)
3 diviner 2 Feat (Augment Summoning)
4 cleric 2
5 diviner 3
6 cleric 3 Feat (Craft Wonderous Item)
7 mystic theurge 1 Dual Spellcaster Progression
8 mystic theurge 2
9 mystic theurge 3 Feat (Leadership)
10 mystic theurge 4
11 mystic theurge 5
12 mystic theurge 6 Feat (Spell Focus:Necromancy or Illusion?)
13 mystic theurge 7
14 mystic theurge 8
15 mystic theurge 9 Feat (Skill Focus:Spellcraft)
16 mystic theurge 10
17 archmage 1 Arcane Reach (30ft)
18 archmage 2 Spell Power +1, Feat (Spell Penetration?)
19 archmage 3 Archmage Ability?
20 archmage 4 Archmage Ability?
Ending with 9th level wizard spells, 7th level cleric spells.
Does not have metamagic feats... could use a rod or try to fit it in. Since I want to take Leadership, that slot's taken, the rest are prereqs for archmage. I could give up augment summons but for what? And would it be better than +4 str/+4 con for all summoned creatures?
I could give up augment summons but for what? And would it be better than +4 str/+4 con for all summoned creatures?
This depends on your final build. assuming you will control/use more Undead then anything else, I would recommend the Corpsecrafter tree from Libris Mortis. That is, if your DM allows it.
Otherwise, why not focus on Thaumaturgist (DMG) instead of Archmage (boosting your Cleric abilities, rather then your Wizard) in order to boost your other summoning spells.
Without early entry of some sort, it sucks.
You basically trade 4th level spells for 2nds.
5s for 3s, 6s for 4s, etc ...
So the right answer is: No.
The better answer is: absolutely not.
That is unless you re-do the concept alot and go the cheese route.
Cleric 7 with Leadership.
Cohort is Wizard 4 / Cleric 1 ... (the 4 is important)
Cleric 7 takes Imbue With Spell Ability and
hands a 2nd level spell to the Cohort, which is not used.
Result ?
Cleric 7 is down one 4th level spell slot.
Cohort Wiz 4 / Cleric 1 qualifies for MT.
Weak combo for 1 level. And did I mention cheese ?!
Very good after that, and much better than the 3/3 into MT route.
More specifically, in the case of cleric and wizard - there are few spells that a wizard "needs" on the cleric list and the spells the cleric would want on the wizard list (ie - ranged attack spells mostly) aren't as necessary because the cleric is more effective in close.
I have toyed around with Druid/Wizard heading into MT to make use of things like a shared enlarge person with the Animal companion in order to charge into the fight (and invisible to get there unscathed), but the druid doesn't multiclass well in core material only. It was a fun build - but not sure how viable it would be in a regular campaign (as it involved 2-4 rounds of self-buffing).
That said, druid can spontaneously cast SNA - so if you wanted to go into a summoner route - it might be a better option (even if SNA is (in my opinion) weaker than SM).
I don't think capping the build with Thaumaturgist or Archmage is particularly important frankly. The benefits you'd get from either are so late-game that they are inconsequential. If you want to go Thaumaturgist - I think getting there quickly is far better so you can use it for most of your career.
In terms of feat, I agree on the combat casting vs skill focus and generally would pick neither. You have a high intelligence (due to being wizard as well), so you have the skill points to keep concentration at max ranks and while your CON is only 10 or 12 - you should be able to invest in CWI to create your own amulet of health if you need help in that respect. CWI > Skill Focus most days of the week in my book.