Starting level is 1 and only players handbook 1 & 2 are allowed, 32 point build.
I was planning on making a Two-Weapon Ranger but apparently some of the feats dont work like I thought they did.
Can anyone point me in a good direction to go with this?
Thanks.
Not the most powerful but potentially interesting. You could also go dual wielding armor spikes and a two handed weapon which is probably the more powerful option.
This is my first time playing a Ranger so everything is pretty original to me as far as I am concerned XD
Two weapon fighting isn't worth it if you aren't a rogue/getting sneak attack.
You are always better off with a two hander, or going into archery ranger.
If you do want to play a woodsey two weapon warrior read this. brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p...
The original build started with Barbarian (bonus HP at low levels is more useful than the extra skill points from ranger), and I'll list it that way, but really, by and large, it doesn't make much difference. (In fact, if Wild Shape Ranger is available (it's in the SRD, but not the PHB), you can use it for levels 1-5 without any multiclassing and it remains more or less unchanged.)
This also assumes Human, but it can be made very easily without human - just swap one ranger level for a fighter level to avoid the multiclass penalty. (I normally ignore them, but in a core-only world I was playing strictly by the book.)
Human, 15 / 14 / 12 / 13 / 10 / 8. (If you're rolling, prioritize them in this order. Int 13+ required.)
Barbarian 1 - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Fighter 1 - Combat Reflexes
Ranger 1 - Power Attack, Track
Ranger 2 - Combat Style (your choice), +1 Strength or Dexterity
Ranger 3 - Endurance
Horizon Walker (DMG) 1 - {Open feat}
Keep going along Horizon Walker from there. (No one ever uses it, but it's in the DMG and is very easy to get into.) Strength should be high, but don't knock your Dexterity: You're mostly based on Combat Reflexes.
You're using a guisarme - a reach weapon that can trip and deals respectable damage. You trip the target, and thanks to Improved Trip, you get a followup attack against their prone form (you get a +4 bonus to hit prone targets, remember). If they try to stand up, it provokes another attack from you (at +4, since they're still prone) before they can stand up. Thanks to Combat Reflexes, you can do this multiple times per round. (Your backup weapon is a spiked gauntlet or set of spiked armor; this is just so you can threaten adjacent targets, and to remain a threat if you're forced to drop your guisarme.)
Since you don't rely on a ranger fighting style, you should be wearing medium armor - as good as you can get while still benefiting from Fast Movement. Your AC is rather low for a tank, but you're tanking using a reach weapon, so you can get away with that to some extent.
Your skills are an interesting beast - given Core-Only, you have to eke out every bit you can get. Your main skills should be Spot, Listen, Survival, and Tumble (even if it's cross-class, as it is in this layout). You need 8 ranks in Knowledge (Geography) for Horizon Walker; this is not too hard thanks to the ranger levels. The Fighter level should be used to get 5 ranks in Jump, which improves Tumble - with that synergy, and a +2 masterwork tool (100gp), any decent Dexterity should be enough to safely move around through enemy threatened areas. It's not a guarantee, but unlike the rogue, you've got the hit points to survive if a hit comes your way.
(This skill setup lets you serve as a watchman and tracker outside of combat, which is expected of you as a ranger.)
For support equipment, pick up potions of Enlarge Person (increases your reach and your strength_ and a wand of Cure Light Wounds (you can use it as a ranger without a check even without spells; this'll let you act as an out-of-combat medic as well as an in-combat defender.)
Ranger's there because it provides the necessary skills and the Endurance feat for free. You're not fighting with the usual combat styles, so your choice of combat style is up to you. (TWF isn't quite as worthwhile, although it does let you spiked-gauntlet-punch someone the same round you trip someone else. I take Archery, since it gives me a free useful feat for the occasions when ranged combat is necessary, such as flying targets or environmental hazards.) If you're not a Human, replace Ranger 3 with Fighter 2 to get Endurance.
Barbarian's there NOT for Rage (that's more of a last-ditch hero move, since you only have it once), but rather for Fast Movement - in a core-only environment, between your speed and your reach, you can effectively cover a very large area at any given round.
Horizon Walker is underrated - it's not very good in general, but in core-only, if you aren't using magic, you take what you can get. It's not only full-base-attack with respectable HP and skill points (though not high enough to specialize - that's why you have ranger levels and fight with a reach weapon), but it provides a few extra goodies on the side. Your terrain choices in order are Underground, Desert, Hills, Plains. Underground gives you darkvision, which covers one of the traditional weaknesses of humans. Desert removes the penalty for Raging (the same reason warforged is a good barbarian race). Hills and Plains boost sense skills, letting you act as a sentry a little better.
The real power of this build kicks in at level 11, when you get planar terrain mastery. Your first choice is Shifting. You now have an at-will (with cooldown) Dimension Door. Mobility is traditionally the weak spot of defensive characters, and now you can move yourself *anywhere*. (Since you make most of your attacks as AoOs, the drawback of ending your turn when you D.Door isn't as big for you.) You can also bring the rest of the party along with you, and until the party mage gets Teleport, you'll be very popular for it. The rest of your planar terrain masteries should be Cavernous (almost nothing can hide from tremorsense), Aligned (blocks some of the nastier high-level spells, such as Blasphemy), Fire, and Cold (permanent high energy resistance to common energy types).
However, unlike other builds, it's solid up until that point - if not terribly flashy. It does avoid any non-Core sources, though. And that's the big thing.
Does that help?
That is an interesting route to go but unfortunately I am limited to the Players Handbook 1 & 2 and the DMG so a lot of the stuff listed in that build isnt available for me.
In that case, I'd do a redesign. You want a stealthy, melee warrior who uses two weapons and is all about nature stuff.
Barbarian 5/Rogue 15. You are gonna get +16 BAB at the end (4 attacks a round) and you are going to get lots of sneak attack dice. Two Weapon Fighting makes that 7. Two rages is a fair ammount each day. You get medium armor, but only wear light.
Stats Str>Dex>Con>Int>Wis=Cha Needing str, dex and con sucks, but the rages help negate that a bit.
- Important Feats- Two Weapon, Improved TW, and Greater TW
- Neat Feats You Should Consider- Combat Reflexes, Defensive Sweep, Vexing Flanker+Adaptable Flanker(Your biggest method for sneak attack)
Any character can get all those feats, and you probably ought to try for that. Humans can even get another one (power attack for use at early levels?).
Prestige class wise do you have access to anything outside of DMG? If not thats a pretty big shame.
Weapon wise I would use a big two handed weapon and as you get the two weapon fighting feats, I would pick up armor spikes. Unless you actually want the look of holding two weapons I don't have any real preference. Something martial and light.
Class order isn't super important, I would try to do barb 1 then rogue 1 and simply choose them as you like their next ability.
In core, the ideal melee strategy is tripping. I have a build ready to go on that (I didn't come up with it; I don't remember who did. However, I've used it before in core-only games with new players, to provide them with a bit of defense and let them make mistakes and learn things on their own without a TPK). It's actually mostly ranger-based, and might help.
The original build started with Barbarian (bonus HP at low levels is more useful than the extra skill points from ranger), and I'll list it that way, but really, by and large, it doesn't make much difference. (In fact, if Wild Shape Ranger is available (it's in the SRD, but not the PHB), you can use it for levels 1-5 without any multiclassing and it remains more or less unchanged.)
This also assumes Human, but it can be made very easily without human - just swap one ranger level for a fighter level to avoid the multiclass penalty. (I normally ignore them, but in a core-only world I was playing strictly by the book.)
Human, 15 / 14 / 12 / 13 / 10 / 8. (If you're rolling, prioritize them in this order. Int 13+ required.)
Barbarian 1 - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Fighter 1 - Combat Reflexes
Ranger 1 - Power Attack, Track
Ranger 2 - Combat Style (your choice), +1 Strength or Dexterity
Ranger 3 - Endurance
Horizon Walker (DMG) 1 - {Open feat}
Keep going along Horizon Walker from there. (No one ever uses it, but it's in the DMG and is very easy to get into.) Strength should be high, but don't knock your Dexterity: You're mostly based on Combat Reflexes.
You're using a guisarme - a reach weapon that can trip and deals respectable damage. You trip the target, and thanks to Improved Trip, you get a followup attack against their prone form (you get a +4 bonus to hit prone targets, remember). If they try to stand up, it provokes another attack from you (at +4, since they're still prone) before they can stand up. Thanks to Combat Reflexes, you can do this multiple times per round. (Your backup weapon is a spiked gauntlet or set of spiked armor; this is just so you can threaten adjacent targets, and to remain a threat if you're forced to drop your guisarme.)
Since you don't rely on a ranger fighting style, you should be wearing medium armor - as good as you can get while still benefiting from Fast Movement. Your AC is rather low for a tank, but you're tanking using a reach weapon, so you can get away with that to some extent.
Your skills are an interesting beast - given Core-Only, you have to eke out every bit you can get. Your main skills should be Spot, Listen, Survival, and Tumble (even if it's cross-class, as it is in this layout). You need 8 ranks in Knowledge (Geography) for Horizon Walker; this is not too hard thanks to the ranger levels. The Fighter level should be used to get 5 ranks in Jump, which improves Tumble - with that synergy, and a +2 masterwork tool (100gp), any decent Dexterity should be enough to safely move around through enemy threatened areas. It's not a guarantee, but unlike the rogue, you've got the hit points to survive if a hit comes your way.
(This skill setup lets you serve as a watchman and tracker outside of combat, which is expected of you as a ranger.)
For support equipment, pick up potions of Enlarge Person (increases your reach and your strength_ and a wand of Cure Light Wounds (you can use it as a ranger without a check even without spells; this'll let you act as an out-of-combat medic as well as an in-combat defender.)
Ranger's there because it provides the necessary skills and the Endurance feat for free. You're not fighting with the usual combat styles, so your choice of combat style is up to you. (TWF isn't quite as worthwhile, although it does let you spiked-gauntlet-punch someone the same round you trip someone else. I take Archery, since it gives me a free useful feat for the occasions when ranged combat is necessary, such as flying targets or environmental hazards.) If you're not a Human, replace Ranger 3 with Fighter 2 to get Endurance.
Barbarian's there NOT for Rage (that's more of a last-ditch hero move, since you only have it once), but rather for Fast Movement - in a core-only environment, between your speed and your reach, you can effectively cover a very large area at any given round.
Horizon Walker is underrated - it's not very good in general, but in core-only, if you aren't using magic, you take what you can get. It's not only full-base-attack with respectable HP and skill points (though not high enough to specialize - that's why you have ranger levels and fight with a reach weapon), but it provides a few extra goodies on the side. Your terrain choices in order are Underground, Desert, Hills, Plains. Underground gives you darkvision, which covers one of the traditional weaknesses of humans. Desert removes the penalty for Raging (the same reason warforged is a good barbarian race). Hills and Plains boost sense skills, letting you act as a sentry a little better.
The real power of this build kicks in at level 11, when you get planar terrain mastery. Your first choice is Shifting. You now have an at-will (with cooldown) Dimension Door. Mobility is traditionally the weak spot of defensive characters, and now you can move yourself *anywhere*. (Since you make most of your attacks as AoOs, the drawback of ending your turn when you D.Door isn't as big for you.) You can also bring the rest of the party along with you, and until the party mage gets Teleport, you'll be very popular for it. The rest of your planar terrain masteries should be Cavernous (almost nothing can hide from tremorsense), Aligned (blocks some of the nastier high-level spells, such as Blasphemy), Fire, and Cold (permanent high energy resistance to common energy types).
However, unlike other builds, it's solid up until that point - if not terribly flashy. It does avoid any non-Core sources, though. And that's the big thing.
Does that help?
This sounds interesting as I have actually never played a tripper before, what exactly do you mean by masterwork tool? Is this for tumble? I cant find anything in the books about a tool that gives bonuses to tumble =/
This sounds interesting as I have actually never played a tripper before, what exactly do you mean by masterwork tool? Is this for tumble? I cant find anything in the books about a tool that gives bonuses to tumble =/
It's just a masterwork tool for Tumble. I got the price wrong; it's only 50gp. These are some of the least-used incredible options in skill builds.
The description is up to you - a snazzy outfit for Diplomacy, athletic shoes for Jump, a jeweler's loupe for Appraise, Schmendrick's Guide to the Flora and Fauna of the Hinterlands for Knowledge: Nature and so on. Hence why I linked what I did - you issue forth, resplendent in your jewel-encrusted battle tights, and stand a decent (if not perfect) chance of moving around unhindered.
======
My advice on a ranger is: If you're building him for uber melee damage, you want a different class.
You build a ranger for skills and taking out FE's. I recommend getting a Hunter's Bane weapon, and taking Extra Favored Enemy. Being Bane against every FE you have will make up for a ton of melee deficiency all by itself.
==Aelryinth
He's also assuming masterwork tools for Tumble exist...which might not be the case. Tumble doesn't actually use any kind of tools. Knowledge skills use references (if you have time to consult them) and other skills use actual tools. I'm trying to figure out what a reasonable set of masterwork tools would be for just bouncing and rolling. Can't say clothes...'perfect fit' would be equally well emulated by 'perfectly nude', which doesn't give any bonuses.
Which is fair - the rules specify some tools in the same list, but without a good degree of consistency: the masterwork artisan tools, climber's kit, disguise kit, healer's kit, magnifying glass, merchant's scale, and masterwork thieves' tools all do this same sort of thing, occasionally with a few tweaks.
My guess is they handled common or legacy items, then used the "masterwork tool" section as a catchall for other skills.
An example of a masterwork tool for Tumble would probably involve tight clothes that provide some spring, with special padding at common landing points and reinforcement on certain joints (most notably the wrist, to aid in handsprings). Another alternative is something close to the gnome twist cloth armor.
The only rules text would be "perfect tool for the job"; the description is up to the player.
a set of Tumbler's tools is NOT probably something you could use in combat. It'd probably consist of a short staff, a round ball, a tumbling ladder, a trampoline...things that would aid in a tumbling PERFORMANCE...but not combat acrobatics.
==Aelryinth
Can anyone suggest core-only improvements to it?
Aelrynith's suggestion on another thread about Improved Buckler Defense caught my eye - I'd honestly forgotten about that feat, and here the PHB2 is still available.
Whats wrong with a tumblers outfit, being loose fitting clothes that are padded in the right places?
that'd just be a no-penalty suit of clothes. It'd be like saying wearing no clothes gives you a bonus to the check...nah. An actual 'tool' for tumbling has to be a tool, not a set of clothes. Clothes work on disguise checks.
==Aelryinth
Whats wrong with a tumblers outfit, being loose fitting clothes that are padded in the right places?
that'd just be a no-penalty suit of clothes. It'd be like saying wearing no clothes gives you a bonus to the check...nah.
You can't have pads in specific areas, or maybe reinforced ridgid areas? I've seen gymnists use these all the time. This
An actual 'tool' for tumbling has to be a tool, not a set of clothes. Clothes work on disguise checks.
No jesters outfit giving a +2 to perform comedy?
Wearing apparel appropriate to a job doesn't give you a bonus on the job...it removes any penalties. We're talking about a combat use of Tumble, which means probably in armor, weighed down with gear, etc. Having chalk on your hands probably isn't going to mean anything...you aren't doing the parallel bars or the rings, or swinging from a trapeze. Combat tumble is more like watching a Jackie Chan fight then anything. I don't think coming up through a shopping cart qualifies as a masterwork tool!
==Aelryinth
(I'm doing rolls with and without gear rather often so I'm kinda stating the reality of it here, however it's never wise to start mixing reaility with dnd
) tumbling in combat usualy includes only rolls and maybe (big maybe) somersaults, anything else is too flashy and in general too slow to avoid an incomming blade (I'm not inculding simple dodging here since it's included into AC already). A MW tool for rolling would include properly positioned and secured gear and weapons on your person so as not to hinder you during your tumble (roll). As it would stand to reason rolling with your backpack loose or completly full would hinder your action same as rolling over your sword or simmilar problems.
(I'm doing rolls with and without gear rather often so I'm kinda stating the reality of it here, however it's never wise to start mixing reaility with dnd
[insert mandatory Spetsnaz joke here.]
Gear harnesses are an excellent example, but fundamentally that's still removing an encumberance penalty rather than providing a bous. That said, tumble doesn't suffer penalties until you're carrying a medium load. So if you're packing a light load, it doesn't matter how it's distributed, you don't suffer a penalty.
Back to the matter at hand,
As I said it's not smart mixing reality with dnd
Since the entire system is rather apstract anyways. However since, if we do agree that a MW tool for Tumbling exists, all that's needed is something to add flavour I think this would suffice. Since I doubt that a wizard would optimaly distribute his possesions on his person to avoid breaking some of his flasks (or hips) when tumbling while a skilled rogue probably would do this since he expects to tumble a lot during combat. EDIT : Also I'm not saying anything about encoumberence, he'd still be carrying the same load. Only properly secured and positioned.
Another option would be to give him something simmilar to Dritzz's anklets. The function of this would be to speed up his tumbling (giving no other bonuses). However this could probably be considered magical, regardless of it giving a bonus only to tumble, so it's really up to the DM if he would allow this to pass as a MW tool.
At aelryinth,
Saying that proper attire removes any penalites is the same as saying it adds to the check since you aren't giving a malus to the roll without a proper attire. Thus a diplomatic attire (i.e. a set of outfits fit for negotations with various groups of people) can be considered a MW tool for Diplomacy. Same as a flashy weird coin could be considered as tool for Bluff as it further distracts the target and thus aids your bluff.
Would I be correct to assume you're russian since you reffered russian special forces?
Canuck. It just helps to be familiar with the world outside your borders. :p
Getting back to the OP altogether, though - you can ignore the Tumble tool and the build I suggested remains unchanged. Apart from taking Improved Buckler Defense (which I didn't include since I only used the SRD in that build), what other modifications could help fulfil this request?
Wearing apparel appropriate to a job doesn't give you a bonus on the job...it removes any penalties.
Cite that one for me.
In the end it comes down to what you can convince your DM to allow as a masterwork tool. Ael clearly wouldn't let you get one for tumble. I clearly would.
@ topic:
first, I like the idea of an gear-harness ...
second
T_S' build seams to fit the op's request best ... allthough I would take the first lvl of Ranger @ lvl 1 (instead of Barb) - on the long term those 8 skillpoints seem to be more worth to me than 4 HP
Wearing apparel appropriate to a job doesn't give you a bonus on the job...it removes any penalties.
Cite that one for me.
In the end it comes down to what you can convince your DM to allow as a masterwork tool. Ael clearly wouldn't let you get one for tumble. I clearly would.
I cite thusly.
www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0026.html
==Aelryinth