Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Ahruhn Mar 25, 2014 12:59:32	So, I've been watching The Clone Wars series on Netflix lately and have been thinking about how to make a Jedi-style character using the 3.5 rules. Any books. I don't expect it would ever even see gameplay other than as an NPC once in a while, but I enjoy building character just for the fun of it anyway.   I'm guessing light sabers are out, but still, the closest I can think of to the flavor of one is a Soulknife's Mind Blade.   I was actually thinking of doing it as a Multiclass Monk/Psion (Telepath) with Vow of Poverty and Ascetic Psion (Vow of Non-Violence and Vow of Peace are obviously out since a Jedi really needs to kill sometimes, though Subduing Strike should probably be on the menu). Monk is for the better unarmored AC and Psion for the Mind-Affecting and Telekinesis powers. This wouldn't really provide that great martial prowess, so I was thinking the only way to do it while still getting most of the powers a Jedi should get would be to make it gestalt with Warblade.   How would you do it?
#2 StevenO Mar 25, 2014 13:26:57	I'd play StarWars instead.  The SAGA Edition is the best d20 game RPG made with maybe one real thorn in the system.  SWSE is also far more concerned with the character as opposed to his equipment; if you make a DnD character you almost NEED to account for equipment but in SAGA a 20th-level character does fine with the equipment a 5th-level character could carry.   As for building a Jedi like character in DnD it may depend on exactly what flavor you are going for.  Psionics are often cited as a substitute for using the Force but it need not be the only thing.  I'm not at all familiar enough with psionics to offere suggestions there.  The other things I'd STRONGLY suggest looking at is the classes in Tomb of Battle.  The Swordsage could easily be a great fit for a "Jedi" style of fighting with a number of "magic" maneuvers in it as wel.  The other classes also work to a degree.  Stay away from Monk as the Unarmored Swordsage varient takes care of many of the things you want from Monk.   Anytime you want to convert an onscreen/printed "Jedi" into a RPG system you may need to step back and ask "how should this really fit into the game?"  I find people expect WAY too much from a "Jedi" character and especially now much of that comes from the visual stimulation movies/shows provide because they think they need to; it also doesn't help that you often see Jedi fighting mooks who should be easy to defeat even with low level characters and not a lot of extra power.  Temper you expectation on what a Jedi can do and how it would actually compare to a "non-Jedi" that is just as skilled and you should be MUCH happier with your character.
#3 Ahruhn Mar 25, 2014 13:42:31	I actually don't expect a lot from this type of build in the DnD universe at all. I definitely wouldn't expect it to dish out massive damage like many of the builds proposed in this optimization forum. What I'm thinking of is to create a character with the same ideals, fighting style, and as many of their 'Force' powers that can be packed in, while still having a build that, although not the most powerful, is able to survive in a DnD world with decent role-playing.   Of course, if someone has an idea that ends up being pretty bad-ass, I wouldn't be opposed to hearing about it.    (I didn't start this thread to be told, "Go play Stars Wars", so for anyone that wants to throw that in my face rather than actually contribute, I say to you, "Noted, Thanks".
#4 StevenO Mar 25, 2014 13:46:12	Ahruhn wrote:
#5 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 25, 2014 14:01:51	See the Dead for Nothing link in my signature. Xander the wilder is basically a dramatically reflavored Sith Lord. If you need more acrobatics, look to psychic warriors, possibly with a splash of swordsage (especially with Diamond Mind). Don't get hung up on the lightsaber - it is always better to do that through equipment (I.e. a dorje of Psychic Scimitar or a wand of Flame Blade).
#6 Ahruhn Mar 25, 2014 14:04:28	StevenO wrote:
#7 Ahruhn Mar 25, 2014 14:10:35	Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
#8 Maat_Mons Mar 25, 2014 17:04:30	The tashalatora feat (Secrets of Sarlona, p119) lets you stack your monk levels with your levels in a single psionic class for purposes of AC bonus, flurry of blows, and unarmed damage.     The whirling steel strike feat (Eberron Campaign Setting, p62) lets you treat a longsword as a special monk weapon, allowing you to use it with flurry of blows.     The ardent class (Complete Psionic, p5) is a wisdom based manifester that gets 9th-level powers and a chassis suited to combat.  Choosing force as one of your mantles gets you telekinesis.  Choosing communication as one of your mantles gets you the ability to mess with minds.      The arnis/kali/escrima variant for monk (Dragon 330, p90) gives proficiency with the longsword, which is required for whirling steel strike.     The martial monk variant (Dragon 310, 45) can choose a fighter feat instead of a normal monk bonus feat.  This allows you to pick up weapon focus (longsword), which is required for whirling steel strike.  I'm assuming you have to meet the perquisite for the feat, though it's been argued you don't.     So, I guess my suggestion would look like this.  Levels: ardent 2 / monk 1 / ardent +3.  The rest of the level also go in ardent.  Feats: 1: monastic training, power attack [human bonus feat]; 3: tashalatora, weapon focus (longsword) [martial monk bonus feat]; 6: whirling steel strike.  Remember that you can use a longsword in two hands for better returns with power attack.
#9 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 25, 2014 17:18:33	Ahruhn wrote:
#10 Ahruhn Mar 25, 2014 18:16:28	Great ideas.   Looking over the Ardent, with its Wisdom-based powers and Average Base Attack progression, it does seem like a better fit than the Psion, although many of the powers I'd selected from the Psion/Wilder power list as being Jedi-appropriate aren't on the appropriate Mantle lists.   In my mind Monk and Swordsage are a toss up. You say that the AC progression of the Monk is meaningless when compared to the potential of Light armor. I would normally agree with you actually, especially considering the benefits that many of the maneuvers a Swordsage gains access to gives. My vision of a jedi (and I've never looked at the Star Wars RPG) is a warrior in heavy (perhaps padded) robe-like clothes (I'm not sure what they're called). That's why I figured a Monk would be a better fit with no armor. Vow of Poverty seemed a good fit to me since they seem to work for the Jedi Council and Senate, and don't really have much to call their own. I don't follow Star Wars religiously though, so if I'm way off base on that, let me know. With the combination of the monk's full AC progression and the Vow of Poverty bonus, they should be able to get a decent AC.   Of course, I'm watching an episode of Clone Wars now and it seems Obi Wan is wearing armor on his shoulders and arms similar to the clone trooper armor. I guess it comes down to personal preference.     I was able to work out Xander's info fine. It looks like his player managed to make a pretty good approximation of a Sith with a single class. I assume that was his intent?
#11 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 25, 2014 18:21:20	Ahruhn wrote:
#12 Ahruhn Mar 25, 2014 19:01:10	Lots of good info there, Tempest. I guess I'll have to adjust my build to be Ardent/Swordsage. Now if only there were a Prestige Class that fit the theme and advanced both initiator and manifester levels.
#13 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 25, 2014 19:05:30	Ahruhn wrote:
#14 Ahruhn Mar 25, 2014 19:46:32	So, using the psionics/magic transparency variant, would you say an Illumian with 'krau' as a symbol could be a Swordsage 7 / Ardent 1 with Practiced Manifester (Ardent) could begin play with 4th level powers? Or do krau and Practiced Manifester not stack? I doubt I'd actually do that considering the minimal power points at 1st level, plus I doubt my DM would agree with that interpretation anyway.   I'll check out those Tash builds tomorrow, but are you suggesting that Tash could somehow be used with the Swordsage build or are you mentioning it in case I went back to the monk build?   I'll probably do both builds in the long run for comparison.
#15 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 25, 2014 20:13:38	Ahruhn wrote:
#16 Ahruhn Mar 25, 2014 20:38:55	Ah, you're right. The 3.5 variant is psionics being different. I was remembering it being opposite in previous editions and that EPH mentioned it, so I posted without checking. We did use the transparency rules the last time I played a Psion.   Regarding bonus power points, I see on page 18 that the chart refers to bonus power points by class level whereas the text refers to manifester level in the calculation. There's no errata for it. So you're saying you should go by the text rather than the heading on the chart even though it doesn't work that way for bonus spells for arcane and divine casters?
#17 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 26, 2014 16:28:07	Ahruhn wrote: