Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tremorfang Mar 14, 2011 22:43:24	This is an edited and newer version of an earlier post, because I figured I had talked too much. I am looking for some help in optimizing a human "evil" magic user that primarily uses diplomacy and bluffing to persuade anyone from commoners to kings to demons to sign a magical binding contract for their allegiance, soul, etc... Looking at possibly level 15 but any suggestion of optimization for earlier builds would be greatly appreciated as I may end up playing a smaller level version in a different game. All books are allowed as far as I know. Thanks.
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 15, 2011 0:30:44	The diplomacy aspect is easy: Combine Marshal (Motivate Charisma aura), Warlock (Beguiling Influence), and Binder (Naberius) to boost your Diplomacy by your Charisma (again - i.e. you get double your Charisma to all Charisma skills), plus an extra +9, and the ability to make rushed Diplomacy checks at no penalty. This can be combined with other abilities - my favorite is the Half-Elf Bard substitution level that replaces Fascinate with Calm Emotions (DC=your Diplomacy check!), to make SURE they'll listen - and Bob's your uncle.   But, since you're using this as a villain and effects like Calm Emotions may not be suitable for villain types, you can scrap the bard and keep the rest and be golden. However, the Marshal (for natural leadership, especially of the tyrant-warlord sort), the Warlock (made a pact in the past with dark powers), and the Binder (it's called PACT magic for a reason) all perfectly fit your concept. The rest of your levels are wide open. Suggestions include Malconvoker (technically good, but in a binds-demons-to-use-against-them sort of way), Nar Demonbinder (can be powerful given the right circumstances), or, hell, even Ur-Priest (you bargain with divinity itself! You have enough levels for it without much of a problem, once you meet the requirements). Your BFF will be the Binder itself, though. Naberius is *king* when it comes to exactly this very concept, and Naberius is quite willing to grant you his power in exchange for a piece of your soul for a while... If Zceryll is available, that class alone becomes an amazing powerhouse, and it can be plenty powerful and versatile on its own; it might be good enough alone for the rest of your levels, and warlock and marshal may not actually be necessary as a result. (If their respective goodies - +6 to many social skills and an at-will blast for the warlock,  free Skill Focus, doubling Charisma, and weapon/armor proficiency for the marshal - are worth it, just time their levels for story purposes or to meet feat qualifications.) Another interesting option is the  Hellfire Warlock, which augments the warlock into a mini-powerhouse at blasting and does it in only three levels (though you need enough levels in Warlock to pick up lesser invocations first). I say this is interesting because the prime drawback to the class is that using its major abilities deals Constitution damage to you... but one of the nifty benefits to having a pact with Naberius (from your Binder levels) is that Naberius grants you faster ability healing, recovering that damage every round. Since you'll have Naberius bound anyway, you may as well milk it for all it's worth.
#3 tremorfang Mar 15, 2011 12:57:11	I like the marshal and especially the binder. Is it possible to permanently bind Naberius or do you have to keep calling him every day? Not sure about the warlock just because I prefer the more old-school arcane casters versus him, namely the sorcerer. Though that takes away a strong (+6 was it?) since I am not into warlocks. Not sure that the Malconvoker would work as it looks like you have to be non-evil to use it. I think that I want to do a one level dip in Mindbender for the telepathy. I am liking the Nar Demonbinder. Is there a way to really optimize bluff? Since my character is going to be trying to convince a lot of people into not reading over his magical contract and to just sign it, I need to make up reasons for them to believe that they are clauses that won't hurt them. When in reality they say that I get their soul or allegiance. So I really need to be able to bluff like the best of them. In the end my overall goal is to be able to talk almost anyone into signing my contracts. The magic is for the binding contracts, summoning creatures for pacts and for of course protection. Thanks for the awesome ideas so far. I totally forgot about the Nar Demonbinder. Any other suggestions?
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 15, 2011 18:14:37	Is it possible to permanently bind Naberius or do you have to keep calling him every day? You have to bind him daily, but each pact lasts the whole day and it's impossible to fail (failing a binding check results in a "bad pact"; all that means is that you can't hide the vestige's sign and you're subject to their influence. For Naberius, the sign is a cosmetic change to your voice (IIRC), and his influence is something like forcing you to make speeches to crowds. If you don't comply with the influence, you just take a small (but cumulative) penalty on d20s). Even on the minor penalties for failure, Naberius' binding DC is rather low, so the chances of a bad pact are minimal. Not sure about the warlock just because I prefer the more old-school arcane casters versus him, namely the sorcerer. Though that takes away a strong (+6 was it?) since I am not into warlocks. The warlock isn't an arcane caster and shouldn't really be compared to them. Think of him more like a magical rogue (Eldritch Blast is really closer to Sneak Attack in the role it fills). But yes, you lose +6 to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate for just *one* level of Warlock.  Not sure that the Malconvoker would work as it looks like you have to be non-evil to use it. I think that I want to do a one level dip in Mindbender for the telepathy. I am liking the Nar Demonbinder. If you go Mindbender, be certain to get Mindsight (Lords of Madness). Anything with an Intelligence score in range of your telepathy, you know about. It makes you pretty much impossible to amubush or hide from physically. (Pack the Greater Anticipate Teleport spell to prevent you from being ganked via teleportation. It's possible to combine this with Divert Teleport and any offensive teleportation effect, including Dissipating Touch, to create an effect that operates either as Greater Teleport or as Time Hop, depending on what you want.) Is there a way to really optimize bluff? Since my character is going to be trying to convince a lot of people into not reading over his magical contract and to just sign it, I need to make up reasons for them to believe that they are clauses that won't hurt them. When in reality they say that I get their soul or allegiance. So I really need to be able to bluff like the best of them. In the end my overall goal is to be able to talk almost anyone into signing my contracts. The magic is for the binding contracts, summoning creatures for pacts and for of course protection. Short of getting it really high (Warlock, Exemplar, Marshal, the Glibness spell, etc)? No, there isn't any particular trick to high Bluff. It tends to be its own reward, though. I might also suggest using magic here. There's a lot of writing-based magic that isn't very well known that works wonders here. This is kind of what Secret Page is for, for instance; combine it with Magic Aura to make the contract appear nonmagical.
#5 tremorfang Mar 15, 2011 19:15:26	Thanks for the info. I may just take the warlock level, I need to get out of the comfort zone every once in a while. I also love the Mindsight idea. From the sounds of it, failing the binding check for Naberius would add some flavor to the game anyway. If I may ask, which book is the glibness spell from? It seems pretty awesome from what I have just read, although it may only be available to Assassins and Bards. If that is the case I shall look for some way of getting it through use of a feat or something. Thanks again.
#6 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 15, 2011 22:30:17	Thanks for the info. I may just take the warlock level, I need to get out of the comfort zone every once in a while. I also love the Mindsight idea. It's one of the most powerful sensory feats in the entire game, especially if coupled with the teleport defenses I mentioned above. If you manage to pick up that and Life Sense (Libris Mortis), you'll be able to detect any creature within 100' that has a mind, and see any living creature within line of sight (or even just outside line of sight; the feat basically turns every living creature into a light source for you, and you can see lanterns around corners). This works regardless of stealth, and plays merry hob with magic stealth (Invisibility may foil Life Sense, but won't foil Mindsight, for instance). Anything that gets past them both is either a worthy foe indeed, or a mindless non-living creature (which are usually things like mindless undead, which are trivial, or golems, which are, um, not). From the sounds of it, failing the binding check for Naberius would add some flavor to the game anyway. Most of Pact Magic is dripping in similar fluff. With very few exceptions, a failed binding check is not really a penalty, so long as you remember to act in accord with the influence (which is in and of itself often not a real penalty so much as a distinctive RP quirk). If I may ask, which book is the glibness spell from? It seems pretty awesome from what I have just read, although it may only be available to Assassins and Bards. If that is the case I shall look for some way of getting it through use of a feat or something. Player's Handbook. Brace for awesome. And who needs a feat? Just get a wand. (Another benefit to being a warlock. I forget if binders have access to the same skill.)
#7 tremorfang Mar 17, 2011 21:15:49	Here are my thoughts on level progression thus far. Thought about making it also optimized for planar binding, but I am still a bit foggy on exactly what I can bring in with it so it is out for now. Also thought about just going straight for full mindbender instead of 5 of exemplar. Level 1 – Marshal (Motivate Charisma) Level 2 – Warlock (Beguiling Influence) Level 3 – Binder (Naberius) Level 4 – Sorcerer Level 5 – Sorcerer Level 6 – Sorcerer Level 7 – Sorcerer Level 8 – Sorcerer Level 9 – Sorcerer Level 10 – Sorcerer Level 11 - Sorcerer Level 12 - Sorcerer Level 13 – Sorcerer Level 14 – Mindbender Level 15 – Exemplar Level 16 – Exemplar Level 17 – Exemplar Level 18 – Exemplar Level 19 – Exemplar Level 20 – Mindbender [For Push the weak mind & Skill boost]   Feats I know I want: Able Learner (For when certain skills are unavailable in other classes) Mindsight Skill Focus: Bluff Craft Wondrous Item (For making the contracts) Scribe Scroll (For making contracts) Undead Empathy Spells I know I want: Charm (Needed for mindbender class) Bestow Curse (good for making contracts) Teleport I really wish Druid was charisma based, then I could use Wild Empathy and have an animal companion. Oh well. I chose Sorcerer precisely because it was Charisma based and I plan on maxing charisma as much as possible for Bluff and Diplomacy checks. As far as exemplar goes I chose it for its ability “Persuasive Performance” figured I would pair it with Bluff and then after a minute of telling a lie trying to get someone to do something for me… they would love me for lying to them. What do you guys think?
#8 Tempest_Stormwind Mar 17, 2011 22:22:02	Planar binding has some great options; do look into it. Most of what's needed to pull it off is just magic, so be sure to pick up staffs of things like Magic Circle, and learn spells like Dimensional Anchor. Some options are mean - a voidwraith can drown a foe anywhere, for instance - and others are just plain broken. (Look what the Lesser Planar Binding spell dragged in, for instance.) I'm not sure why you're starting with Marshal; Binder is better for skills if I recall correctly. If I'm wrong, though, that should be a fine starting point - it even works thematically, though for narrative reasons I'd swap Binder and Warlock (you start off as an oddly charismatic soldier interested in the occult, you discover pact magic, and your soul gets corrupted, which you gradually learn to hone with greater and greater control). You can probably take Mindbender sooner than 14th, though I forget the exact skills required, I know you can get them far sooner.  Speaking of skills, rather than Able Learner, did you notice Naberius' Skills? It's not quite as good but it certainly helps. Rather than exemplar, I'd suggest more Sorcerer - or more accurately, any sorcerer fullcasting prestige class that you qualify for, along with Practiced Spellcaster to keep the CL up. An alternative to Persuasive Performance can be found in either the Social Recovery skill trick or the Wanderer's Diplomacy feat (PHB2), I forget which. It lets you substitute Bluff in place of Diplomacy if you fail to persuade them normally. If I remember it correctly, it doesn't use Bluff rules - you just make a Bluff check as if it were Diplomacy. Including at the very high DCs.
#9 tremorfang Mar 17, 2011 23:14:36	I will be sure to look more into planar binding. Story wise I was thinking of him starting as a soldier who just finds people and creatures to be so selfish, he then figures why not try it for himself. After all, for some reason or another people tend to be listening to whatever he says. On an adventure he could have learned of unbelievable creatures outside of his world. Both bored and intrigued he ventures on and researches a creature named "Naberius". After figuring out how to summon this creature, he is asked what it is he wanted from the summoning. It is at this moment the character truly understands his own nature. He wants others to "willingly" (Used loosely) give him their power or allegiance. After that meeting he continues to, like you said, hone his persuasiveness and power to great heights. You are correct I could take it far earlier, I just misread. Thought it meant had to be able to cast 5th level spells, when it really just requires 5th caster level.  I just checked out the Wanderer's Diplomacy and apparently it only lasts for one minute and then they get more unfriendly towards you. I'm open to changing the exemplar. I was thinking the possibility of going back to the marshal class for a few more auras for dexterity, constitution or wisdom. Or like stated earlier maybe fill out mindbender a bit more. Or something that will make the character even more awesome. Since I messed up the level where I should have put mindbender, any suggestions on changing up the level progressions? Oh and I will most definitely do Practiced Spellcaster, especially since I was thinking of going full mindbender. It would take away some of the pain of the half leveling in mindbender. Thanks again for the replies.
#10 New-Shadow Mar 18, 2011 20:30:26	Serene Visage from Dragon 325 might help you immensely.  It gives you an insight bonus equal to caster level to bluff.  It's also a Level 1 Sorc./Wiz spell, and it obviously scales with level (with no level cap).  If you're looking for full casting PrC's, Serpent Slayer from Serpent Kingdoms gives you full casting for 10 levels, a d8 HD/level, and immunity to poison at 3rd level (while being able to detect it at 2nd level and neutralize it at 5th), though you'll need Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Casting to get it (plus BAB +6).  Eldritch Theurge gives full casting for 10 levels as well, and Warlock Progression, as well as a bunch of other stuff if things go bad (boosting El. Blast, D.R./cold iron, etc).  It might be worth picking up a second level of warlock to get Detect Magic at will and the Virolic Blast invocation (after filling out E.T., of course), which ignores spell resistance and deals acid damage to those it hits.  Other than that, I'm out of ideas for now. Edit: Fixed some stuff that I didn't see when first posting about the class, corrected it.