Mobility: Pick a few forms that can fly, swim, and burrow. I think you'd get a climb speed also, which can be handy.
Combat: High natural armor class, and natural attacks. Mobility can be helpful here also.
Utility: Many creatures have high racial bonuses to skills, and/or racial bonus feats. Telling whether something is a racial bonus feat or not can be tricky. If it has a (B) next to it in the feats section, it definitely is. Otherwise, if the creature's description doesn't say that it is, it probably isn't. All creatures get feats every three levels, and at first level, and you don't get those from the spell. I think disguising yourself as a member of another race, or an individual, also falls under this, but I guess it could be its own category.
If you submit something to be added to the list, please list the HD of the creature, the Type of the creature, benefits it offers, and what book or resource it is from.
Just so we are all clear on what exactly you can get from the spell, here is an excerpt from its description in the SRD. Pay special attention to the parts I've underlined.
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
how about changing the thread to both outsiders and standard forms though?
this way all "normal" wizboys get a valueable ressource, too. and you get mentioned in the FAQ, eternal honor (until 4.0 comes out)
gs
Funny
If u use alter self to alter in someting multiheded an than u take multivoice feat, now u cast freely 2 spells per round, the prereq are just meet by racial feats added by 2 headed....
wow i wonder if..........
(yes i know that 2 headed IS a template, but ettin is not)
It gives you a +8 natural armor bonus.
Originally posted by PeggeyandScott
What about a Wereboar - Hybrid form. It is technically a Medium Humanoid with 5HD or less, so it should qualify.
It gives you a +8 natural armor bonus.
All of the lycanthropes are templates, so you can't use them with Alter Self.
+8 natural armor's not bad, if you don't mind being called Crab-Boy.
I did mention Crucian * here *, a while back. Our resident Warrior/Mage used it the other day and it really paid off. Although he did not care for his new 20' Movement rate.
Hey ... ya look like a tortoise, ya gotta walk like a tortoise ...
XO,
Snow
Originally posted by Caelic
I'm sort of surprised nobody's mentioned Crucian yet...or did I miss that?
+8 natural armor's not bad, if you don't mind being called Crab-Boy.
Could you post some more info on it? What book it's in, how many Hit Dice it has, what kind of creature it is, etc?
Originally posted by Snow Savant
Caelic,
I did mention Crucian * here *, a while back.
.....
Snow
Grr... I knew I remembered seeing a thread on this already. How did I not find this in the dang search engine? I think I was looking specifically for Outsider forms, and then after I had started this thread Funny suggested I change it to all forms. Oh well, I'll just steal all the stuff from that one and organize it all. :D
Originally posted by PhaedrusXY
Originally posted by Raging Halfling
I just found a nice one paging through the Monster Manual. How about a ravid? It has Fly 60ft at perfect maneuvarability and +15 NA.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, it would be nice if it's flying ability weren't supernatural (Su). I saw that one too, then I looked down at the bottom of the entry. You don't gain Supernatural abilities, including supernatural flying. But thanks for the suggestion.
Uhm...then maybe cast fly? Or expeditious retreat at least. Haste will help your mobility as well. Ravid is a very solid form for alter-self. Especially if you have a way around the slow land movement.
Tellish
So.. I am gonna hit my books for aberrations.. and hopefully this board will hit theirs!
Originally posted by Tellish_of_Ket
Uhm...then maybe cast fly? Or expeditious retreat at least. Haste will help your mobility as well. Ravid is a very solid form for alter-self. Especially if you have a way around the slow land movement.
True, but the intent with the sorcerer is to pick spells that let you do as much as possible. With the ability to swap out spells at even levels, it's not as desperately necessary to grab spells that don't replicate other spells you can cast, but it remains the guiding principle. Basically, if I'm using Alter Self (and, later, Polymorph or Shapechange) to fly, I don't want to use Fly to fly. Alter Self also gives you other extremely handy movement rates.
EDIT: Whoops, my bad. I had the 3.5 SorcSpell thread and this one open at the same time, and some frame of reference wires got crossed. My bad, absolutely, but I'll leave the comment as is.
Asabi and Gibberlings have been changed to monstrous humanoids in the Player's Guide to Faerun weab enhancement.
SRD
You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).
You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
Does this mean that if I'm a half-orc, and I use Alter Self to change form, I lose darkvision 60' (it's dependent on the eyes, after all)? Even if I change into another humanoid that has the exact same ability, such as a Dwarf or a half-orc of the opposing gender?
You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
--- ... ---
You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
So you lose racial darkvision and lowlight vision when you use alter self, even if your new form normally would have those qualities. Those qualities also do not carry over from old form.
I'll add them to the list. The Canoloth looks great in particular, if you can get around the fact that it doesn't have eyes somehow... I don't think you'd get it's normal means of vision, Blindsight, even though that's all it has.I converted the compiled list to Neonsamurai's format, because it looks neater. I left out the column on HD, though. All of these forms are 5 HD or less, and you have to be at least 3rd level to even cast this spell. So most characters will be able to use all of them and I don't think it's really a neccessary bit of info. If others feel that it should be in there, I can go back and add it later. But I really don't want to have to go through all of those books and check all these critters... :D
(I know the Crucian's been mentioned before, but stats werent posted)
Crucian: Medium Humanoid. 3HD. +8 NA
Abyssal Eviscerator: Medium Outsider. 4HD. +10 NA. Has eyes, unlike the Canoloth
Originally posted by DesolateCity
two good ones from the miniature's hand book
(I know the Crucian's been mentioned before, but stats werent posted)
Crucian: Medium Humanoid. 3HD. +8 NA
Abyssal Eviscerator: Medium Outsider. 4HD. +10 NA. Has eyes, unlike the Canoloth
I actually had the Crucian stats in the list already, but thanks. And thanks for the Abyssal Eviscerator. What is it's movement rate? And does it have any racial skill bonuses, or any other benefits besides high NA? Like natural weapons?
4HD Medium Outsider
Speed 30, 2 claw attacks(1d6 damage), +10 Natural Armor, 20 Str and Con, 11 Dex. Rake attack, but I dont think you get that with Alter Self
I converted the compiled list to Neonsamurai's format
kudos for this, its much better now.
i have to do this with the 3.5-summon-monster thread also, i should find time for this now.
i'll wait for zenrangers input and start then.
and btw:
really really great ressource now, this was exactly what i thought how CO-ressources that are linked to the FAQ should be!
gs
Funny
Here a few i've found right now:
Spriggan, Small Fey, 5HD, 20 ft. speed, +4 Climb/Disable Device/Move Silently/Open Lock/Sleight of Hand.
Spriggan, Large Fey, 30 ft. speed, otherwise same as above.
Pixie, Small Fey, 1HD, Speed 20 ft. Fly 60 ft. (Good), +1 NA, +2 Listen/Search/Spot, Dodge bonus feat.
The ones picked from Monsters of Faerûn (MoF) are 3.0 and so I cannot include their racial skill bonuses. A conversion to 3.5 would be in order...
Abishai, White (MoF), +4 NA, 30ft, Fly 40ft.
Baphitaur (Underdark), +3 NA, 30ft.
Fey'ri (Races of Faerûn), +0 NA, 30ft, Fly 40ft (poor), +2 bluff, +2 hide, +2 listen, +2 search, +2 spot.
Genasi (Air, Earth, Fire, Water), +0 NA, 30ft. The water genasi probably has the Water subtype as well if converted, meaning he can breathe underwater and probably gets a swim speed (with all that this entails)
Tanarukk (Races of Faerûn), +4 NA, 20ft.
Tiefling, +0 NA, +2 bluff, +2 hide.
So.. I am in need of those friendly aberration forms!
Since you can use alter self on your familiar, it would be cool to extend this thread to include possible forms.
I have a diminutive rat as a familiar, so it can be changed into a small or fine animal and gain abilities such as wings to provide a flying scout which is cool.
If people want to submit useful creatures with these types, I'll add them to the list. But I'm not going to go pour through my books and dig out a bunch myself. It is just too much work for too small of an audience. Sorry.
The Form has been already mentioned in other Threads, but here's where it belongs.
Tren (Serpent Kingdoms), Medium Humanoid (Aquatic Reptilian), 4 HD, +8 NA, 30ft, Swim 40ft, Bonus Feat: Multiattack, +4 Hide (+8 in rocky or subterranean areas)
Originally posted by Spiralix
And I'll be looking for some magical beasts, eventually, because there's a spellcasting [i]awakened rhesus monkey PC at some point in my future. [/b]
Just watch out for those half-ogres. They know that there's no wrong way to eat a rhesus.
These special circumstances make Alter Self a lot more useful!
Would this allow you to use 2 of the Xill's 4 hands to wield weapons and/or a shield, but still employ the other 2 hands for secondary claw, claw, bite routines at a -2 as opposed to -5? I'm a bit unclear about mixing natural attacks with manufactured weapon attacks already, and when you throw 2 extra arms into the mix and a monstrous feat, I'm even more confused.
I'm looking at designing a Native Outsider character around using the various Alter Self/Polymorph spells for combat, and this would be important information for that build.
Thanks in advance.
Just curious :D
Would this allow you to use 2 of the Xill's 4 hands to wield weapons and/or a shield, but still employ the other 2 hands for secondary claw, claw, bite routines at a -2 as opposed to -5?
No, and here's why:
from the SRD description of Alter Self:
A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
Here's a great Humanoid form from the Fiend Folio that I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet; it's great for sneaking around:
Skulk, Medium Humanoid, 2 HD, 30 ft. movement, +8 racial bonus to Move Silently, +15 racial bonus to Hide.
so as the xill.. you could have a sword and a sheild, and still cast spells with a somatic component with no penalty?
Yeah, I think that would be legal. You couldn't attack with them and cast a spell in the same round, though. But you'd still get the AC bonus from the shield and threaten with the weapon.
Here's a great Humanoid form from the Fiend Folio that I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet; it's great for sneaking around:
Skulk, Medium Humanoid, 2 HD, 30 ft. movement, +8 racial bonus to Move Silently, +15 racial bonus to Hide.
Nice catch! I just bought that book a couple of weeks ago, and haven't really looked through it for forms to add to this thread. I'll add it to the list.
Specific question regarding the Xill form from the 1st page of this thread: "5HD Medium Outsider, +7 NA, Movement 40'. Pretty good Combat form. Monster Manual." In the Alter Self SRD description it says you gain, "...natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth)." On page 259 of the MM it lists Multiattack as a bonus feat, which should be accessible by someone employing Alter Self who has the Outsider type.
Would this allow you to use 2 of the Xill's 4 hands to wield weapons and/or a shield, but still employ the other 2 hands for secondary claw, claw, bite routines at a -2 as opposed to -5? I'm a bit unclear about mixing natural attacks with manufactured weapon attacks already, and when you throw 2 extra arms into the mix and a monstrous feat, I'm even more confused.
I'm looking at designing a Native Outsider character around using the various Alter Self/Polymorph spells for combat, and this would be important information for that build.
Thanks in advance.
I think the text of the spell is a bit vauge and contradictory here. You are certainly supposed to gain access to all the natural weapons of a creature. And you are supposed to use the natural weapon attack routine of the creature you assume the form of when you use form-altering magic. If you change into a bear, you get claw, claw, bite. A Xill's natural attack routine is 4 claws. I think you could use this, but some would probably disagree. I think this is where the Alter Self text is contradictory, but maybe it's not.
You could also interpret it as you do indeed gain the ability to use all the natural attacks of the Xill form, but just not all during the same round. You can only make up to a "normal" number of attacks. But this raises the question of just what do we consider a "normal" amount of attacks? Is it limited to two claws and a bite? What if you take some weird form that has a bunch of tentacles and no real bilateral symetry, like an octopus? What if your "normal" form IS some weird tentacled thing that gets 8 attacks per round? Is the "normal" in the text referring to normal for your natural form, normal for the form you're assuming, or "normal" in some abstract sense (i.e. 2 claws and a bite)?
It is also a bit unclear whether you could use weapons in one pair of arms, and use claws from the others. I think the answer is no, as that would be "gaining more attacks than normal", but this is listed as a "normal" attack routine for a Xill.
The Xill entry in general seems messed up. It makes all of it's attacks at the same bonus, even though it only has the Multiattack and Multiweapon Fighting feats, not the Improved versions of those feats. It should either be making one attack at it's full bonus, and all others at a -2, or it should be getting it's full strength bonus to all it's attacks (and not need the Multiattack feat at all). The way the strength bonuses to damage are applied confirm that one attack is considered primary and all others secondary or off-hand. If this is some wierd ability of the Xill, like the Ettin's perfect two-weapon fighting ability or whatever it's called, it should be clearly stated as such. But I think it is more likely that whoever wrote up that entry in the MM just messed up.
How come noone has mentioned lantern archon? Alter self you and your familiar into them and you've both got fly 60 (perfect) and twice-per-round touch-attack light beams that ignore damage reduction. Only 4 points of natural armour, but who cares? 4d6 damage per round on touch attacks is good, especially since you can do it from 1hd onwards.
I don't think you could use the Lantern Archon's fly ability. You only get "mundane" methods of movement, per the spell description:
mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings
So you'd be a ball of light that can't move. :embarrass If the DM let you use the supernatural flight ability, it would be great, though.
+4 NA, 2 Claws (d4), Move 40ft or Fly 60ft, Multiattack/Toughness, +2 Hide, Listen, Spot. And +8 Hide when against a stone background.
What about the gargoyle, isn't it considered a humanoid (Monstrous Humanoid) and under the 5 HD limit? You gain
+4 NA, 2 Claws (d4), Move 40ft or Fly 60ft, Multiattack/Toughness, +2 Hide, Listen, Spot. And +8 Hide when against a stone background.
Monstrous Humanoid is it's own category and is separate from Humanoid, as far as I know. I'd love it if you could prove otherwise, though. :D
Very useful thread.
Since you can use alter self on your familiar, it would be cool to extend this thread to include possible forms.
Did a quick pass through the MM for forms for your familiar and got the following two lists:
Alter Self: Magical Beast Forms for your (Diminutive or Tiny) Familiar
- Cockatrice; Small; Fly 60 ft (poor); Bite (1d4)
- Darkmantle; Small; Fly 30 ft (poor); +6 natural; slam (1d4); No skill bonus as doesn’t get Blindsight
- Shocker Lizard; Small; 40 ft, climb 20 ft, swim 20 ft; +3 natural; +4 Hide, +2 Listen, +2 Spot, +8 climb (take 10), +8 swim (take 10); bite (1d4)
- Stirge; Tiny; 10 ft, fly 40 ft (average); Weapon Finesse;
Alter Self: Magical Beast Forms for your Improved Familiar or for Larger Masters.
Also usable with "Improved Familiar, Onara" from "Players Guide to Arcanis" (which has Light Warhorse @ CL5th and Heavy Warhorse @ CL7th)
- Aranea (Shapechanger); Medium; Climb 25’; +1 natural; +2 Jump, +2 Listen, +2 Spot, +8 Climb (take 10); Bite (1d6)
- Blink Dog; Medium; +3 natural; (Bite 1d6)
- Eagle, Giant; Large; Fly 80 ft (average); +3 natural; +4 Spot; 2 Claws (1d6) and bite (1d8); speech :D
- Ethereal Marauder (Extraplanar); Medium; +3 natural; +2 Listen, +2 Move Silently, +2 Spot; Bite (1d6)
- Gargoyle (Earth); Medium;Speed 40 ft, Fly 60 ft (average); +4 natural; +2 Hide (+8 in stone), +2 Listen, +2 Spot; 2 claws (1d4) and bite (1d6)
- Hippogriff; Large; 50 ft, Fly 100 ft (average); +4 natural; +4 Spot; 2 claws (1d4) and bite (1d8)
- Hydra (5 headed); Huge; Swim 20 ft; +6 natural; +2 Spot, +2 Listen, +8 Swim (take 10), Combat Reflexes (all heads); 5 bites (1d10) :D
- Krenshar; Medium; 40 ft; +3 natural; +4 Jump, +4 Move Silently, Track;
- Owl, Giant; Large; 10 ft, Fly 70 ft (average); +3 natural; +8 Listen, +4 Spot, +8 Move Silently when flying; 2 Claws (1d6) and bite (1d8); speech :D
- Owlbear; Large; +5 natural; 2 claws (1d6) and bite (1d8)
- Pegasus; Large; 60 ft, fly 120 ft (average); +3 natural; +4 Listen, +4 Spot; 2 hooves (1d6) and bite (1d4)
- Phase Spider; Large; 40 ft, climb 20 ft; +3 natural; +8 climb (take 10); bite (1d6)
- Spider Eater; Large; Fly 60 ft (good); +4 natural; +4 Listen, +4 Spot; Sting (1d8)
- Unicorn; Large; 60 ft; +6 natural; +4 Move Silently; horn (1d8) and 2 hooves (1d4)
- Worg; Medium; 50 ft; +2 natural; +1 Listen, +1 Move Silently, +1 Spot, +2 Hide; bite (1d6)
Edit: Er... wait a minute. I think the Sage recently said that familiars can only take the forms of other animals using Alter Self (via Share Spells). This was because even though they gain the Magical Beast type, they use their subtype of Augmented Animal to determine what kind of forms they can take. I think this was in his little series on reading spell entries. I don't necessarily agree with him, but I think he is basically considered canon as far as WotC and alot of people are concerned.
I'll add the table with a disclaimer stating this. People can make up their own minds.
Edit: Er... wait a minute. I think the Sage recently said that familiars can only take the forms of other animals using Alter Self (via Share Spells). This was because even though they gain the Magical Beast type, they use their subtype of Augmented Animal to determine what kind of forms they can take. I think this was in his little series on reading spell entries. I don't necessarily agree with him, but I think he is basically considered canon as far as WotC and alot of people are concerned.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a
Skip needs to read his own rules. The spell specifically refers to "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form (such as humanoid or magical beast)" and the Familiar abilility states "...it is treated as a magical beast instead of an animal for the purpose of any effect that depends on its type". If he disagrees with the spells limit, its funny that the spell refers to the only two types of creature affected using just the PHB.
He also forgets about the part of Share Spells that refers to "... Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of You on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself."
According to PH Errata (version 09072004), they errata'd the "Animal Companion" class feature from Magical Beast to Animal (Augmented Animal).
Familiars are still Magical Beast (Augmented Animal) unless they do a new official errata. I'm not sure they will actually change this, as Animals have Int1 or Int2, whereas Magical Beasts have Int3+.
A really useful addition would be the number of attacks gainable through the spell, expecially for combat forms, but also for other forms as well: for example, I'd like to go around discharging a lot of Chill Touches, and a form with a lot of natural attacks and a bonus weapon finesse would be perfect.
From the text of the spell, which I quoted in the first post:
A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
Also, you can't normally hold the charge on more than one spell at a time. I am guessing the same would apply for spells like Chill Touch, but I'm not sure... There is a spell (or a feat... I forget) called Spell Flower in Savage Species that lets you do this, however.
There is a question raised: what about Warforged and their type of Construct? There's got to be some good ?5 HD forms to exploit. Some of the constructs in the ECS are good for hiding.
Speaking of which, note the Dolgaunt and Dolgrim in the ECS. Ugly as sin, but useful. Only open to Elans though.
From the text of the spell, which I quoted in the first post:Also, you can't normally hold the charge on more than one spell at a time. I am guessing the same would apply for spells like Chill Touch, but I'm not sure... There is a spell (or a feat... I forget) called Spell Flower in Savage Species that lets you do this, however.
Chill touch gives you multiple charges. And while gaining extra limbs from alter self doesn't grant extra attacks, having a feat like Multiattack will.
I like Githzerai's Dex.
There is a question raised: what about Warforged and their type of Construct? There's got to be some good ?5 HD forms to exploit. Some of the constructs in the ECS are good for hiding.
Speaking of which, note the Dolgaunt and Dolgrim in the ECS. Ugly as sin, but useful. Only open to Elans though.
Warforged are "Living Construct" for type, not construct, so there is nothing they can Alter Self into.
open lock
disable device
search
Also even better if the skill bonuses granted include one or more of these:
hide
ms
spot
listen
Don't really care about movement and +NA but all the better if there is some granted!
I hate to bump an old thread, but are there any good humanoid/outsider forms for utility/rogue'ish wizards. Namely ones that give bonuses to:
open lock
disable device
search
Most of the forms compiled in the lists at the beginning have their racial skill bonuses in their stats. You have to scroll over to see them. I don't know of any that give Open Lock or Disable Device, but some give +2 to search (elves and kobolds mainly). The Skulk gives great racial bonuses to Hide and Move Silently.
Are there any dragon forms that aren't Tiny? I haven't been able to find a single one.
Just from looking through the SRD, the wyrmling green is Small and has 5 HD. I hadn't compiled dragons, because I didn't expect there to be much of a demand for it.
The Locathah appears to have +3 Natural Armor as well, according to the SRD.
Oops! Thanks alot.
From the text of the spell, which I quoted in the first post:A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
Also, you can't normally hold the charge on more than one spell at a time. I am guessing the same would apply for spells like Chill Touch, but I'm not sure... There is a spell (or a feat... I forget) called Spell Flower in Savage Species that lets you do this, however.
Chill touch gives you 1 touch per level. With the normal attack routine, of a xill for example, or xorn, that gives you four attacks which discharge a chill touch on a hit. Not bad isn't it!
Now, I guess that trying to do touch attacks instead would be too much - it would fall into gaining more attacks than normal. But this is a really blurry line! Why shouldn't I be able to try touch attacks if I can do a complete attack? I guess it's because the altered form isn't used to it? Oh well.
Did you mean something else when you typed that, Phaedrus?
I made a list of construct forms for Polymorph on the Polymorph form listing thread somewhere in this board (search seems to be down), which is somewhat better as there are more choices over 5 HD.
Aenghus
Warforged are indeed Constructs by type - 'Living Construct' is their subtype - and it would be very interesting to have a decent list of Alter Self forms for them...
Shadow-walker does not give a character the Outsider type.
Did you mean something else when you typed that, Phaedrus?
No, I thought Shadow Walker granted the Outsider type for over a year. I recently noticed that it doesn't when reading over it when a PC decided to play one in a game I'm DMing. By the time I realized that I'd been wrong, the campaign where I was playing one had already finished. The DM never caught my error either, so I played the entire campaign as if my character were an Outsider. :heehee It really wouldn't have mattered, as I never abused Polymorph or Alter Self because of it, anyway.
This gives a big bonus to the altered forms. I devise playing a minor xorn (I'm a tiefling mage) with chill touches, and with the druid casting magic fang. That mouth is going to give one hell of a kiss...
Black scale lizardfolk from MM3 nets you large +7 NA move 40ft +4 Balance/jump swim
Poison dusk lizardfolf from MM3 gets you small size +3 NA 30ft move +4 Balance/Swim/Jump and +5 hide
Good for alternate sized critters
spiked chain anyone?BTW nice thread very useful
Abilities marked with an * are arguably natural to the from assumed, but YMMV from GM to GM. Some of these forms may not be as good as others, but I feel they are useful as they may be accessed sooner or have other interesting abilities.
Some Outsider-typed forms:
- Bariaur (PlanarHB), 1HD, 0 NA, m, 40ft, Powerful Charge*, Quadraped*, +2 Listen and Spot
- Neraph (PlanarHB), 1HD, +2 NA, m, 30ft, Leap* (+5 jump)
- Shadowswyft (PlanarHB), 1HD, 0 NA, m, 40ft, +4 to hide and move silently
- Wildren (PlanarHB), 1HD, 0 NA, m, 20ft + Burrow 10ft, 2 claws for 1d4, Not slowed by encumberance or armor, Stability*
- Abyssal Maw (MM2), 2HD, 5 NA, m, 30ft, Bite (2d8)
- Abyssal Skulker (MM2), 2HD, 2 NA, s, 40ft, 2 claws (1d2)
- Coure (BoED), 2HD, 4 NA, t, 30ft + Fly 60 (Perfect)
- Protectar (MiniHB), 2HD, 0 NA, m, 30ft + Fly 60ft (Good)
- Musteval (BoED), 2HD, 4 NA, t, 30ft + Burrow 10, Bite 1d3
- Bariaur (BoED), 3HD, 0 NA, l, 40ft, 2 Hooves (1d6), Powerful Charge*, Quadraped*, +2 Listen and Spot
- Abyssal Ravager (MM2), 3HD, 4 NA, l, 50ft, Sting (1d4)
- Ramadeen (MiniHB), 4HD, 4 NA, l, 40ft, Powerful Charge*
- Rhek (BoED), 5HD, 7 NA, m, 30ft, Gore 1d8, Powerful Charge*, Instant Stability*
The Bariaur from the BoED is presumably a greater form of the version in the PlanarHB.
Some Dragon-typed forms:
- Crested Felldrake (MM2), 2HD, 4 NA, s, 40ft, Bite (1d8)
- Spitting Felldrake (MM2), 3HD, 4 NA, m, 30ft, Bite (1d6)
- Fang Dragon (MoF), 3HD, 2 NA, t, 60 + Fly 90 (Average) Trip*
- Horned Felldrake (MM2), 4HD, 7 NA, m, 30ft, Horn (2d6), Charge* (4d6+2*Strength)
- Wyrmling Ethereal Dragon (Drac), 4HD, 3 NA, t, 60 + Fly 60 (poor)
- Wyrmling Shadow Dragon (Drac), 4HD, 7 NA, t, 80 (Capped at 60) + Fly 150 (Capped at 120) (Average)
- Wyrmling Battle Dragon (Drac), 5HD, 5NA, t, 40, Fly 100 (average)
The above come with 2 claws and a bite for 1d3 and 1d4 respectively. - Wyrmling Styx Dragon (Drac), 5HD, 4 NA, s, 60ft + Swim 60ft + Burrow 20ft, 2 Tail Blades (1d6) + Bite (1d6), Improved Grab* Constrict* (For 2*Tail Blade Damage)
- Portal Drake (Underdark), 5HD, 4 NA, s, 40ft + Burrow 20ft + Fly 90 (Average), Bite (1d6) + 2 Claws (1d4), +4 Hide and Move Silently
- Wyrmling Crystal Dragon (MM2), 5HD, 4 NA, s, 40ft + Fly 100ft (average) + Burrow 5ft + Swim 40ft
- Wyrmling Sapphire Dragon (MM2), 5HD, 3 NA, t, 40ft + Fly 100ft (average) + Burrow 15ft + Swim 10ft
Sources:
BoED = Book of Exalted Heeds
Drac = Draconomicon
FRCS/MoF = Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting or Monsters of Feyrun
MiniHB = Miniatures Handbook
MM2 = Monster Manual 2
PlanarHB = Planar Handbook
Now, some Aberrations from the MM3:
- Harpoon Spider, pg 81. Large, 40' movement, 20' climb, +3 natural armour, Bite and ranged Fang attacks, Improved Trip as a bonus feat,+8 to climb and jump.
- Mindshredder Larva. +2 natural armour and you're quadropedal, to avoid tripsiness. Not great.
- Runehound. 50' movement, Track as a bonus feat, +4 natural armour... and it's blind.
Not that good. The aberrations in the ECS aren't too good either - the best is the Dolgaunt, and they're blind. In the fiend Folio, we have the Red Ethergaunt, which nets +4 natural AC, and that's about it. Plus, you look weird. Applying the Half-Illithid template to any appropriate form nets it as a possibility for an Elan, and gives it +1 natural armour to boot and gains you +4 tentacle attacks, for those with something nasty on touch attacks (Touch of golden ice springs to mind).
Really, the Elan aren't as well-off as the outsiders, unless your DM doesn't know how templates stack.
So all those who are wondering what to do with this thread, make fun and prosper at the cost of your GM.
Also, I seem to recall Snow Savant had a thread about using AlterSelf into some sort of Dwarf? (Off memory) That had Craft Magic Arms & Armour, and Craft Some other Thing (Technical Feat, that one) as Racial Feats.
If that's still the case, it should definately make it's way into this thread.
@Dark_and_Stormy: I had the same (maybe similar?) idea about the otherworldly feat. It's not *technically* a template, so creatures with it applied can technically be assumed, but you'd need a kind GM to get that through.
Firstly the Shining South, the Wyrmling and Very Young Rattelyr Dragon forms are both assumeable. The Very Young one gives about the best burrow speed I've seen for a small dragon.
I'd not mention the Wyrmling as the Wyrmling white dragon is equal or better on most counts (also having a fast fly speed and a fast fly speed and a good swim speed), but it's 3HD where the Rattelyr wyrmling is only 2HD so dragon-typed small Suel Arcanamachs can in-theory take it before they can take the white dragon form... For what it's worth anyway.
- Wyrmling Rattelyr Dragon (SS), 2HD, 2 NA, t, 60 + Burrow 30, +8 Spot and +8 hide in deserts, 2 Claws (1d3) + Bite (1d4)
- Very Young Rattelyr Dragon (SS), 5HD, 4NA, s, 60 + Burrow 30, +8 Spot and +8 hide in deserts, 2 Claws (1d4) + Bite (1d6)
Then, from the Silver Marches, we have an interesting Abberation form:
- Snowcloak (SM), 4HD, 5 NA, l, 20ft + Fly 60ft (average), +4 Hide in snowy areas, 2 Bites (1d4) + 2 Claws (1d2) + Tail (1d6)
Also, I seem to recall Snow Savant had a thread about using AlterSelf into some sort of Dwarf? (Off memory) That had Craft Magic Arms & Armour, and Craft Some other Thing (Technical Feat, that one) as Racial Feats.
That would be the Midgard Dwarf from Frostburn.
Thanks for the new additions. I'll add them in when I get a chance. I don't know that I want to bother with the HD thing though. Most people get Alter Self at caster level 3, and so only have to wait two levels to get the max HD creatures. (And I'm busy in real life, and lazy. :P )
But with how it stands, players with 3rd and 4th level casters still need to look-up each of these forms to check wether or not they can polymorph into it. Ideally the player would be able to look at the list in this resource and decide from that.
That would be the Midgard Dwarf from Frostburn.
I saw that but ws wonderng if there was some other as it's an 8HD form thus not assumeable with Alter Self.
I'm not sure that works either. Although they do get the feats as 'bonus feats', they get them through an extraordinary special quality (Master Smith) whilst Alter Self and Polymorph generally don't give you extraordinary special qualities (unless it's natural to the form).
Outsider Forms:
1 Hit Die
Southernskies compiled a couple of lists of Magical Beasts with under 5 HD for use on familiars and other companions via the Share Spells ability.
This is very useful: I am considering a Dire Raven as a Cohort, and the Gargoyal would give it a form with hands(plus other good stuff).
Unfortunately, there is a lack of useful construct forms at or under the 5HD limit for Alter Self. Most potential candidates lack useable limbs or are the wrong size.
I made a list of construct forms for Polymorph on the Polymorph form listing thread somewhere in this board (search seems to be down), which is somewhat better as there are more choices over 5 HD.
Aenghus
What about Maug in Fiend Folio. 3 HD I think (2 la) It is a construct.
Warforged in ebberon
Any other constructs?
Psicrystal from XPH.
anymore?
What about Maug in Fiend Folio. 3 HD I think (2 la) It is a construct.
Warforged in ebberon
Any other constructs?
Psicrystal from XPH.
anymore?
Small, Medium, and Large Animated Objects are possibilities.
What about Maug in Fiend Folio. 3 HD I think (2 la) It is a construct.
Warforged in ebberon
Any other constructs?
Psicrystal from XPH.
anymore?
Astral Constructs ("summoned" monsters in the XPH). The 5 HD one is actually pretty tough.
4TH-LEVEL ASTRAL CONSTRUCT
Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 5d10+20 (47 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 22 (+2 Dex, +10 natural), touch 12, flatfooted 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+10
Attack: Slam +10 melee (1d6+10)
Full Attack: Slam +10 melee (1d6+10)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: One ability from Menu B, construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 15, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —
@Dark_and_Stormy: I had the same (maybe similar?) idea about the otherworldly feat. It's not *technically* a template, so creatures with it applied can technically be assumed, but you'd need a kind GM to get that through.
No, but the feat specifically says that you are not a humanoid, but become a native outsider. Same as an aasimar or tiefling.
No, but the feat specifically says that you are not a humanoid, but become a native outsider. Same as an aasimar or tiefling.
I know that the feat turns you into an outsider. As it happens I'm playing 2 characters with the feat right now. I was merely pointing-out the fact that the GM has good grounds to disallow this given that templated forms are not allowed and the Otherworldly feat performs a change which is more commonly done via a template.
I know that the feat turns you into an outsider. As it happens I'm playing 2 characters with the feat right now. I was merely pointing-out the fact that the GM has good grounds to disallow this given that templated forms are not allowed and the Otherworldly feat performs a change which is more commonly done via a template.
Please understand that I am not trying to start a little flame war, but I have gone back and closely looked over both the Otherwordly feat and the spell listing for Alter Self, and I don't understand what you are saying. If you are saying that the DM can simply 'Rule Zero' this because it 'might be' (translated, 'is') broken, then fine, I am 150% totally with you. But according to the RAW, I don't grasp your point.
Use with Polymorph and Alter Self makes Otherworldly a very potent feat, but its kept somewhat in check by the fact that it is only usable by a very tight race and region list. If the DM opens that list up, or allows it for other races in other campaign worlds (such as Eberron), look out.
A Character with the Otherworldly feat can assume Non-templated outsider form.
A Character with the Otherworldly feat can't assume the form of a Non-outsider which also has Otherworldly feat.
Note that LoM makes it clear that the flight of the Spectator and Grell are extraordinary abilities. I may be being slightly generous when listing granted abilities, but it really is hard to discern where abilities inherrent to form start and end.
2HD:
Tren Medium Humanoid (Aquatic, Reptilian) (SK), 4HD, 8 NA, 30 ft + Swim 40, +4 Hide and +8 hide when underground, 1 Claws (1d4)
Hey, I realized Half-Giant from the XPH has the Giant type. Any AS possibilities there, guys?
Nice catch. It's note-worthy that the Giant type makes you proficient with all martial weapons as Outsider does. A quick chack gives the following:
Taer (UE), 2HD, 3NA, Medium, 30ft + Climb 30ft, 2 Slams + Bite, +4 hide in snowy conditions
Ogre (MM), 4HD, 5NA, Large, 40ft
Fensir (FF), 4HD, 6NA, Large, 40ft
Ogre Mage (MM), 5HD, 5NA, Large, 40ft
Forest Troll (MM3), 5HD, 5NA, Medium, 30ft + Climb 20ft, 2 Claws + Bite, +2 to Hide (+4 in forest)
Ice Troll (UE), 5HD, 6NA, Large, 30ft, 2 Claws + Bite
Hopefully will find more tomorrow.
A mindflayer (or a character PoA into a mindflayer) would probably want to use Alter Self to fit in with regular society.
Nice catch. It's note-worthy that the Giant type makes you proficient with all martial weapons as Outsider does. A quick chack gives the following:
Taer (UE), 2HD, 3NA, Medium, 30ft + Climb 30ft, 2 Slams + Bite, +4 hide in snowy conditions
Ogre (MM), 4HD, 5NA, Large, 40ft
Fensir (FF), 4HD, 6NA, Large, 40ft
Ogre Mage (MM), 5HD, 5NA, Large, 40ft
Forest Troll (MM3), 5HD, 5NA, Medium, 30ft + Climb 20ft, 2 Claws + Bite, +2 to Hide (+4 in forest)
Ice Troll (UE), 5HD, 6NA, Large, 30ft, 2 Claws + Bite
Hopefully will find more tomorrow.
Sweet!
Anguilian (SW) 4 m 20ft, Swim 20ft 2 Pincers(1d4), Bite (1d6), Aquatic + Landwalking, +4 Hide and Spot, +8 hide in rocky areas3HD Fey:
Nereid (SW) - m 30ft, Swim 40ft Aquatic, +8 hide underwaterSW: Stormwrack
Nothing particularly good there, but they're quite possibly good choices as I think they'd both be able to breathe water.
Underdark:
Phaerlock: medium-sized
Monsters of Faerûn:
Asabi, Bullywug, Shalarin, Siv: medium-sized
Races of Faerûn:
Artic dwarf, Wild dwarf: small-sized
Urdunnir: medium-sized
Unapproachable East
Spirit folk: medium-sized
Fiend Folio:
Darkstalker, Mongrelfolk: Medium-sized
Skulk: no natural armour
From Hyperconsciousness:
Kureshim (Caster required 1): meduim, 0 natural, no other modes of movement:
+1 extra psionic feat (maybe not be usable...or unless you psionic)
+2 racial spot, search, sense motive.
There are few more from Warcraft D&D book like
1) Pandarains (caster required 1) Meduim, 2 NA, 20 feet (30 if on all 4's), Climb speed 15 (+8 climb, take 10), bite 1d6/claws 1d4.
2) Furbolgs (caster 1) large, 2 na, +2 know (nature)/survival, Slam 1d6, claw 1d8, claw 1d6.
Warforged
Warforged charger(MM3) 2 slam attacks, d8. Large size, powerful charge, adamantine body feat (+8 AC, +1 dex max, 2/adamantine DR). 20 feet movement due to adamantine body.
Spark Guardian (Complete warrior) small version. +1 size +4 natural AC. fly 20 good. 20 movement. 2 talon attacks 1d2.
Dedicated wright, small version. +7 craft check (any) +4 craft check (any).
Warforged Scout
Tiny expeditious messenger. 100 fly perfect. 20 feet. +7 escape artist
Gauntlet Guardian. (Complete warrior) +7 natural +1 size AC. 2 slams, d6.
Dedicated wright (see above)
Not a lot of options for the warforged, but the options they have available are quite good when you count in other homunculus.
Nothing particularly good there, but they're quite possibly good choices as I think they'd both be able to breathe water.
That's something that's bothering me.
Most aquatic races have no mention of the fact that they can breath water, probably because this is included in the "aquatic" subtype.
But since
Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form.
does it mean that you actually suffocate if you turn into an aquatic creature while underwater ?
-you can cast this spell from level 1 using the Precocious Apprentice feat
-you get 'any gross physical qualities'. What are they how can we take advantage of them?
-my elf wizard changes into a human and gains skills & 1 FEAT ?! (It seems abusive to me so I wouldn't, but I know there is an arguement so I thought I'd mention it - please don't sidetrack this thread arguing over it)
-how can we (ab)use 'Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form'?
-when people see you they won't know that you don't have special qualities (et al.) ->what are the best forms to take advantage of this?
-You could also cast it on the druid or paladin & thier mount/animal companion benefits, Ex. I would think that a halfling druid on a riding dog trained for war could benefit from being changed into a ? on a pegasis or charging rhino/dinosaur.
-why is it I don't see any large humanoid forms on the list for better reach?
-I know there have been books released since this thread was started, are their any new & good forms?
Thoughts:
-you can cast this spell from level 1 using the practiced spellcaster feat
I think you mean Precocious Apprentice.
-you get 'any gross physical qualities'. What are they how can we take advantage of them?
It gives examples of what this means in the spell description:
(presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth).
You could use this to be able to hold more things than normal, if you change into a form with more arms. This might be handy for certain things. There are probably better applications for it.
-my elf wizard changes into a human and gains skills & 1 FEAT ?! (It seems abusive to me so I wouldn't, but I know there is an arguement so I thought I'd mention it - please don't sidetrack this thread arguing over it)
Per the Sage this is correct. I think it is beyond stupid, and won't be adding things to specifically abuse this.
-how can we (ab)use 'Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form'?
Interesting. I hadn't thought about ways to use that. It would make a good way to disguise yourself, or perhaps smuggle in weapons, etc. One example I can think of would be to use Alter Self on your familiar to turn it into something with hands. Then hand it a weapon. Then cast Alter Self again to turn it into something that doesn't have hands. The weapon would meld into it. When you want to retrieve the weapon, have it change back to its normal form.
-You could also cast it on the druid or paladin & thier mount/animal companion benefits, Ex. I would think that a halfling druid on a riding dog trained for war could benefit from being changed into a ? on a pegasis or charging rhino/dinosaur.
You can only change the creature into something of the same type, so turning a riding dog into a rhino would work. Turning it into a pegasus wouldn't (unless it was a familiar instead of an animal companion, and hence already a magical beast).
-why is it I don't see any large humanoid forms on the list for better reach?
Do you know of any? I don't...
-I know there have been books released since this thread was started, are their any new & good forms?
I've added stuff from other books as people have posted it. However, I no longer play D&D at all and will never buy any of the new books. I have also been kind of lazy about updating this thread. Someone else can feel free to copy the info from it and start a new one, if they want to update it more regularly. ;)
-how can we (ab)use 'Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form'?
We could change into something that has more libs than we do, cut off them all off and see what happens.
An error in the list: Hobgoblins don't have natural armor.
For example, from Races of Stone, you have Goliath, Chaos Gnome, Dream Dwarf, Feral Gargun, Stonechild, Whisper Gnome. Races of Wild has Catfolk. I'm sure there are others in Races of Destiny, and the environmental books, and probably even in those two books I mentioned that I missed on first glance.
Is there a more complete list on another thread?
Is there a more complete list on another thread?
No. Like I said a few posts back, I don't even play D&D anymore. If you want to start a new thread, and keep it updated, feel free. You can copy and paste whatever you want from this one to get started. If you want to compile info from those new books and post it here, or PM it to me, I'll add it to this list as I have time. But I don't buy any books at all anymore, and so won't be going out and getting material to add to this list on my own.
Alter Self and Improved Familiar Feat – New possibilites for varying types of altered creatures.
As we all know Alter Self also can affect your familiar which can change into a creature of its own type but must remain within a HD limit (which is the caster level of the Wizard (Max 5)) and must remain within one size category of its original size.
However as I will show below with the Improved Familiar feat the type of creature is not restricted to Magical Beast as is the case with normal familiars:
"Quoted from previous post: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=193357
Shows lists of Improved Familiar (CW: Guardian Familiars) (FRCS) (RoF) (SK) (T&B)
Quote:
beholderkin (eyeball), blade guardian, blink dog, cat (tressym), deathfang, flying snake, formian worker, gauntlet guardian, hell hound, hippogriff, howler, imp, jaculi, krenshar, lizard (spitting crawler), lynx, mlarraun, muckdweller, snake (deathfang, flying, glacier, tree python, whipsnake), nighthunter bat, osquip, pseudodragon, quasit, shocker lizard, spark guardian, stirge, winter wolf, worg"
I have put them in table form showing Book and Page but more importantly type. Used the Monster Index on the Wizards website for details: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters
- Name.....................Book........Page.......Type
- Beholderkin, Eyeball..Mon.........23..........Aberration, Tiny
- Blade Guardian.........CW.........120.........Construct, Medium
- Blink Dog................MM..........28..........Magical Beast, Medium
- Tressym.................LE...........191.........Magical Beast, Tiny
- Deathfang...............Rac.........175........Undead, Small
- Snake, Flying...........Rac.........177........Magical Beast, Small
- Formian Worker........MM.........109........Outsider, Small
- Gauntlet Guardian.....CW.........120........Construct, Small
- Hell Hound..............MM..........151........Outsider, Medium
- Hippogriff................MM.........152.........Magical Beast, Large
- Howler...................MM..........154........Outsider, Large
- Imp (Devil).............MM...........56.........Outsider, Tiny
- Jaculi....................SK............66.........Magical Beast, Medium
- Krenshar................MM..........163........Magical Beast, Medium
- Spitting Crawler......FRCS........308........Animal, Tiny
- Lynx.....................Rac..........174........Animal, Small
- Mlarraun.................SK...........70.........Magical Beast, Medium
- Muckdweller............SK...........71.........Monstrous Humanoid, Tiny
- Deathfang..............Rac.........175........Undead, Small
- Snake, Glacier.........SK............84........Animal, Medium
- Tree Python...........SK............86.........Magical Beast, Medium
- Whipsnake..............SK...........87.........Animal, Medium
- Osquip...................Rac.........176........Magical Beast, Small
- Pseudodragon.........MM..........210........Dragon, Tiny
- Quasit (Demon).......MM..........46.........Outsider, Tiny
- Shocker Lizard.........MM.........224........Magical Beast, Small
- Spark Guardian........CW..........119........Construct, Tiny
- Stirge....................MM..........236........Magical Beast, Tiny
- Winter Wolf............MM..........256.........Magical Beast, Large
- Worg.....................MM..........256........Magical Beast, Medium
(Important feature highlighted in red)
Mon = Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerûn, CW = Complete Warrior, MM = Monster Manual v.3.5, LE = Lost Empires of Faerûn, Rac = Races of Faerûn, SK = Serpent Kingdoms, FRCS = Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.
Plus a personal favourite of mine from Shining South that was not included in the above. It is sentient (Int 12), can speak common and has true seeing at will!! This means it can tell its master about any illusions/hidden dangers ect/invisible/ethereal people etc the list goes on…
Beguiler.....................ShS............60..........Magical Beast, Small
The most important thing I wish to bring to light is that on the above list there are creatures of the abberation, construct, dragon, monstrous humanoid, outsider and undead types.
And these familiars can transform into any creature of there own type (within a size category either way) upto the maximum caster level of the wizard who cast alter self (Max 5HD).
The challenge is can any one come up with a overpowered creature of the expressed types within the capacity of alter self? This allows the Improved Familiar feat even more depth (abuse LOL) when used with alter self?
Dwarf Ancestor, Outsider, 5HD, Large, 18NA, 20ft movement speed, 2arms, 2 legs, and a head (Can use humanoid equipment)
Here's an interesting new outsider alter self form from the MM4 Excerpt:
Dwarf Ancestor, 5HD, Large, 18NA, 20ft movement speed, Humanoid form (can use humanoid equipment)
Good god... 18 NA is insane. Get ready for all low level wizards to be running around looking like giant dwarves soon (what a ridiculous idea).
I don't understand why these compilation threads have been moved here from the normal CO boards. These aren't about "pushing the envelope". They're about compiling lists of practical optimization tips.
Thanks for your work RuneLordAsmodeus. I'll add a link to your post to the section on the first page about using Alter Self with familiars. What is your argument against these improved familiars becoming Magical Beasts? If you go by the "type tree", or whatever you want to call it, from Savage Species, then I could see some of them not changing type. But I'm not sure that would override the specific text that says Familiars change their type to Magical Beast. Is there something that specifically says Improved Familiars don't change their type somewhere?
Humanoid:
Varag, M, 3HD, NA +3, Move Speed 60ft, Run and Spring Attack bonus feats
If so, a Kobold with Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level at 1st, the Dragonwrought feat, and the Draconic Breath Feat could alter self into various wyrmling dragons and have a breath weapon. They should even be able to cast spells as normal, though maybe Eschew Materials would be needed; but I doubt normal dragons have spell component pouches. :D
While the stat bonuses are mediocre at best (NA ranging from +2 to +5, slam attack ranging from 1d4 to 1d8), being able to turn into nearly any object is bound to be useful, especially in a scenario with limited equipment.
- Party needs to reach a trapdoor on the ceiling? AS into a ladder.
- Need to carry lots of loot and move fast? Carry your friends' packs, and then turn into a backpack yourself
- Low on cash? AS into Full-Plate, have a buddy sell you, and then discreetly leave.
- Need to get into a lord's manor? Turn into a waterclock, and have your pals drop you off as a "gift."
Water Gensai (MoF) 0 m 30, Swim 30 +8 Swim (take 10), Water Breathing*
But no other forms granted water breathing.
My question is, do gill fall under the catagory of"
"and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth)"?
if so than any form with gills does grant water breathing?
Thanks
it was posted here
Water Gensai (MoF) 0 m 30, Swim 30 +8 Swim (take 10), Water Breathing*
But no other forms granted water breathing.
My question is, do gill fall under the catagory of"
"and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth)"?
if so than any form with gills does grant water breathing?
Thanks
The only answer here is to ask your DM. In the circles I play in, it does. This is based on the argument that it's possible to assume many different forms with no lungs, particularly through alter self's more advanced cousin, Polymorph.
Insects have a set of tubes that carry air aout their body. Insects, however, don't have lungs. This means that if you didn't get the replacement with the breathing system of the insect then you'd die pretty quickly. (note that with no lungs, you can't hold your breath and could be unconcious within a round)
Similar things could be said for druids using elemental wildshape. Note that wildshape no longer gives creature type, meaning they technically won't get the elemental trait of not needing to breathe.
Either you cut down on forms very strictly, and monitor what forms have what respiritory systems and come down on someone like a ton of bricks if they ever assume a form with a different respiratory system, or you let them breathe how what they turn into breathes. We chose the second option on the natural selection principal... The mage who invented the version of Polymorph which didn't give you the creature's respiratory system died of asphyxiation.
In the Rule of the Game article about Alter Self they state the following couple of items.
"There's no limit to the subtypes you can assume, so long as the base type is the same as your own. For example if you're a human, your type and subtype is humanoid (human), so you can assume the form of any other humanoid creature, such as an orc, goblin, dwarf, or elf."
"Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings. Physical qualities also include natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth).
Your size becomes the same as a typical example of the creature whose form you assume, as noted in the creature's description. You cannot assume a larger or smaller size even if the creature's advancement entry lists other possible sizes. If for example, you change into a lizardfolk, you become Medium size -- you could not turn into a Small or Large lizardfolk."
Now, they have stated on several different occasions that a Warforged is a COnstruct with the Living subtype. What happens to thier Constitution when they become something that is simply a "Construct" ? Alter self says that thier stats dont change. But, is the complete lacking of Constitution in a Construct a product of thier "gross physical qualities" and therefore the Warforged Constitution is "there" but just not "used"?
And as far as the available things for Warforged to become. Since it does say "You cannot assume a larger or smaller size even if the creature's advancement entry lists other possible sizes" and warforged are medium creatures. They would be limited to small, medium or large constructs. Which nixes alot of the Eberron constructs.
You are correct that Warforged are limited to changing into small, medium or large constructs. Warforged Chargers, an excellent choice at large size and 4 HD.
Eberron Campaign Setting
Humanoid
Ravid (MM p.213), M, +15 NA!, 20ft, 60ft fly, Tail (1D6), Claw(1D4-1)that's high fly speed along with great armor class. at least a considerable choice for level 3 and 4 when dwarven ancestor is not yet available.
a VERY important part is missing in the whole list:
whether the new physical form is able to cast spells or not.
whether the assumed form has limbs with which it can fulfill the somatic component and whether it has the possibilty to speak, to fulfill the verbal component of a spell.
that makes mephits extremely useful targets and also the dwarven ancestor. ravid on the other hand becomes almost useless (except caster works with still&silent spells only...)
some forms as lantern archon (if allowed to fly (mundane?) and using ray attacks) are still useful since lantern archon can speak; however it misses arms.
the minor xorn has limbs and can speak, but whether its limbs are capable to do those complicated wavings and so forth, is arguable.
since we speak about xorns right now: a xorns ability to burrow with 20ft speed is certainly not a MUNDANE movement speed - it's origin is magical. thus said, its burrow speed should be removed from the list...
another maybe somewhat interesting 5HD outsider i found is the voor (MM4, p.193): large, 30ft, 20ft climb, +6 NA, +8 climb, +4 listen. definitely not able to speak, but should be capable to cast somatic only spells. the interesting thing is that it has a reach of 20ft due to its tentacles. possible gross physical special quality/attack alter self could supply is "rend"; that is arguable, too.
and for utility: hell hound (MM p.151) gives racial +5 to hide&move silently along with some not so valuable abilities. that is not as much as some other races give, but until now it's the highest bonus for outsiders i have seen so far.
correcting myself: ravid's flight is supernatural. keep ravid away from the list. xorn's burrowing is probably not mundane. ask your DM ...
I added a couple of other things that had been mentioned by people earlier in the thread, also.
True: you don't get Earth Glide as it's an extraordinary special quality, and physically burrowing underground at any speed beyond a snail's pace beggar's belief, but animals have reasonably fast burrowing speeds too and they're almost nessecarily nonmagical.
I hadn't noticed the natural armor on the Ravid... That certainly makes it a nice option, dispite the loss of the flight speed, if you're OK with the loss of a hand.
Wether or not the Xorn's burrowing is magical or not has come up before. What has been noted is that the Earth Glide ability is Extraordinary. I've never seen something extraordinary enhance something that was magical in teh first place, so that's strongly indicative that the burrowing is nonmagical.
I present to you, the Wilder:
Wild Surge (Su)
A wilder can let her passion and emotion rise to the surface in a wild surge when she manifests a power. During a wild surge, a wilder gains phenomenal psionic strength, but may harm herself by the reckless use of her power (see Psychic Enervation, below).
Psychic Enervation (Ex)
Pushing oneself by invoking a wild surge is dangerous. Immediately following each wild surge, a wilder may be overcome by the strain of her effort. The chance of suffering psychic enervation is equal to 5% per manifester level added with the wild surge.
Sadly, this is psionic and not exactly magical, but the point stands that an EX ability affects a SU ability.
The Ravid's flight is also obviously magical.
you are completely right - strange to overlook that, if at the same time you notice it is a snake without wings and with only one arm ...
that's a good reason to keep it away from the list, it's flight is clearly supernatural.
you are also right that xorn's burrowing is not clearly magical. i somehow read "(Su)" behind earth glide today; it is clearly (Ex). as DM i would handle it clearly as not mundane (leaving no traces is somewhat strange, isn't it?), however it is not really clear that this is true for everyone's point of view.
what's your opinion about lantern archon? i read something about it in the beginning of the thread, but i am not sure whether it's flight is clearly magical. a glowing ball of light - does it need wings? it probably has some other apparatus to fly, or, even better, is what it reads: a glowing ball of LIGHT. weightless, without mass that wind could affect...?
in the case of lantern archon nowhere is noted that its flight is Su, Sp or Ex. it is just not noted. i would consider it being a valid movement...
@phaedrus:
if it saves you some time i will lookup all mentioned forms, whether they are clearly able to cast spells with (S)omatic or (V)erbal component. for the rest i could throw in a guess (S?/V?). would you update the list in that case?
@lilt:
i should read more carefully, didn't notice that xorn's burrowing has already been discussed
@phaedrus:
if it saves you some time i will lookup all mentioned forms, whether they are clearly able to cast spells with (S)omatic or (V)erbal component. for the rest i could throw in a guess (S?/V?). would you update the list in that case?
If you quote the list, edit in those parts, and then repost it, I'll copy it into the first post. :D
Sorry, I just don't have time to go through and add an entire new column myself right now. I should have more time this summer. :P
If you quote the list, edit in those parts, and then repost it, I'll copy it into the first post. :D
Sorry, I just don't have time to go through and add an entire new column myself right now. I should have more time this summer. :P
ok, i did the humanoid forms now. i will do outsiders and aberrations at another time.
i slightly changed the format, added source books and page numbers, filled in some missing data (size, speed and NA).
column "Cast" indicates the discussed casting abilities.
i gave a V if the form is capable of speech or, if not noted (MoF e.g. rarely mentions whether a particular race is able to speak and which language it speaks) i searched for a mouth and some intelligence. since asabis have mouths and int > 10 i assume they can speak. "V?" means that i am not sure, e.g. gibberling has a mouth, but intelligence is 5. if one looks at the varag from MM4, it has a mouth, too, but it is just to stupid to speak. evolution decided that physiological parts needed to speak should be degenerated. that's why casters in varag form should also not being able to speak properly.
for almost all humanoid forms the somatic part is clearly no problem. only problem i could think of were amphibians with e.g. only 3 fingers and swim-skins (english is not my native language - how do you call it?) between them. look at the locathah picture and you know what i mean. i decided to give it a S because as noted in the MM it can use weapons.
of course it becomes more interesting for the outsider and aberration forms ...
so, here are the first two list:
Humanoids from the SRD:
An animal has an Intelligence score of 1 or 2. A creature of humanlike intelligence has a score of at least 3.
I don't know what the Int listed for a Varag and Bullywug is, but I bet it is at least 3. For some of the outsiders, magical beasts, and other things, I could see them not being able to complete verbal and/or somatic components. However, I think all humanoids probably should be allowed to.
they can learn to understand languages, but physically they are almost unable to speak one. they communicate primarily with shrieks, howls and so forth.
i agree, every creature with int > 2 should be considered being able to speak as long as it has a mouth and it is not otherwise noted. gibberlings therefore should get a clear V/S
what about raptoran from RotW?
should get the (Ex) gliding and flight (latter as long as the caster has 5+ HD: 40ft movement), racial +2 climb & spot, racial +10 jump.
other things to mention: no NA, size M, V/S, 30ft base speed
another question, don't know whom to ask:
if one plays a tattooed monk with tattoo "chameleon", which gives a Su alter self effect - what is the caster level of such an effect? is there a general rule for that? there is nothing mentioned in the PrC description.
i somewhat lack the knowledge for such things...
Isn't it about time this thread got updated with all the new books and things?
Feel free to submit anything you want. ;) I don't buy new books, but if people post things here, I'll add them as I have time.
just because i took a look at the list of races that are able to fly, i realized that avarial is the only one mentioned.
what about raptoran from RotW?
should get the (Ex) gliding and flight (latter as long as the caster has 5+ HD: 40ft movement), racial +2 climb & spot, racial +10 jump.
other things to mention: no NA, size M, V/S, 30ft base speed
That might be seen as a bit of a grey area. Allowing that is getting remarkably close to allowing a character with polymorph or Wildshape to assume the forms of creatures with advanced hit-dice. I think that an exact reading, however, does possibly allow it. You keep your own hit dice, and as the ability functions based on hit dice rather than racial hit-dice it'd just be factored like any other change.
I mean, it's just like how you keep your own strength score which determines how much damage you do when you hit with a natural weapon, meaning you keep your own number of hit-dice which determine (in the raptoran't case) how well you can fly.
another question, don't know whom to ask:
if one plays a tattooed monk with tattoo "chameleon", which gives a Su alter self effect - what is the caster level of such an effect? is there a general rule for that? there is nothing mentioned in the PrC description.
i somewhat lack the knowledge for such things...
I'll look into it mroe and see if I can find any supporting rules though...
Scratch that. I think the text on supernatural abilities trumps that:
Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice.
It's not otherwise noted, thus the creatures HD is used as the caster level.
as for the supernatural ability thing: thank you. that's more than reasonable.
i did look it up in the PHB and the DMG but in neither book there was any similar wording about special abilites.
i hope i will be able to update the outsiders for V/S soon, however right now i am somewhat stuck with some work to do ...
i did not yet forget it, however ^^
Is there a way to have alter self active while still looking normal form? Or something like that?
Wonderful list and thread. If I make alot of use of it in more than one campaign I will make sure all the new books are taken care of for at the very least humanoid. *sigh* I can't think of a way for my artificer with persistent spell [metamagic feat - makes personal/self spells last 24 hours] who has alterself every day for 24 hours at a time to make use of the one +8 humanoid race from the Miniature's Handbook while still somehow looking presentable in a small village of fearful and ignorant farmers. They ran at the ogre and catfolk in my party, i don't think a ninja turtle would do much help either.
Is there a way to have alter self active while still looking normal form? Or something like that?
Buy a hat of disguise? Sure, physical contact may still be an issue, but you can look perfectly normal otherwise.
Dwarf Ancestor, MM4 pg52, V/S, NA18, Size L, Movement 20ft, feats: cleave powerattack (likely not racial), listen +9? spot +9? (someone confirm this for me to see if i'm correct on this?)
Now the problem with this one is that dwarf ancestors are animated souls inside of stone.. but they don't count as constructs OR undead. It says they dont need to eat drink sleep or air. I think that if you turn into one, it wouldn't make sense if you didn't have this as well, as you no longer have any living tissue inside of you.
This is an odd exception of outsider. I hope an offical source can confirm what happens when you Alter Self into a Dwarf Ancestor.
EDIT: Also, what about magic item slots? Being made of stone kind of wears out a ring as you put it on and off ;]. I'd love an offical source to say what slots they can/cannot possess.. assuming the form you take is 'naked' of 'stone clothes/armor/ect'.
My contribution:
Dwarf Ancestor, MM4 pg52, V/S, NA18, Size L, Movement 20ft, feats: cleave powerattack (likely not racial), listen +9? spot +9? (someone confirm this for me to see if i'm correct on this?)
Now the problem with this one is that dwarf ancestors are animated souls inside of stone.. but they don't count as constructs OR undead. It says they dont need to eat drink sleep or air. I think that if you turn into one, it wouldn't make sense if you didn't have this as well, as you no longer have any living tissue inside of you.
This is an odd exception of outsider. I hope an offical source can confirm what happens when you Alter Self into a Dwarf Ancestor.
EDIT: Also, what about magic item slots? Being made of stone kind of wears out a ring as you put it on and off ;]. I'd love an offical source to say what slots they can/cannot possess.. assuming the form you take is 'naked' of 'stone clothes/armor/ect'.
I already mentioned this form here. Technically, it's 100% legal. It's also pretty crazy. You wouldn't get the feats, they're not listed as bonus feats so there's no real basis for an argument that they might be there by virtue of form. The spot/listen are presumably bought using skill ranks, so with no mention of skill bonuses I don't think you'd get any of that.
Generally, as you're humanoid in shape, you should be able to use any appropriately-sized equipment. The same goes for Trolls (IIRC trolls were discussed in the Polymorphing rules of the game a while back) and anything else which is humanoid in shape.
I already mentioned this form here.
Oh. Sorry. I did see that, but not the detail you put in it.. I assumed the thread starter would have used it if you put all the details, as he left a few questionmarks.
And yeah, technically it's legal.. your skin is stone, but you're flexable too, so.. i guess.. that makes it make sense? haha. I just am completely stumped on the breathing/eating/sleeping/drinking bit. I mean if you say the player still has to do all those things.. then how? His body is now made of stone!
Oh. Sorry. I did see that, but not the detail you put in it.. I assumed the thread starter would have used it if you put all the details, as he left a few questionmarks.
And yeah, technically it's legal.. your skin is stone, but you're flexable too, so.. i guess.. that makes it make sense? haha. I just am completely stumped on the breathing/eating/sleeping/drinking bit. I mean if you say the player still has to do all those things.. then how? His body is now made of stone!
The simple answer is that his body is not made of stone. The creature itself is a native outsider, meaning that it breathes, eats, and sleeps. It may appear to be made of stone, and the skin may be as tough as stone (or tough like stone), but the creature's bodily functions are not disrupted. If the normal dwarf ancestor does not die through inability to breathe or eat, then why should the PC have any trouble using alter self to assume the form?
Further evidence the creature isn't made of stone: It has DR 5/Adamantite, which might roughly equate to a hardness, but the hardness of stone is 8. Sure, their origins are a stone statue and a dwarf soul, but that doesn't mean the outcome is nessecarily a stone creature and, by virtue of it gaining the Outsider type, it is nessecarily not just a stone creature.
Did I miss any part of this thread for a PC to gain outsider type easily through use of a spell or anything? Visage of the deity (greater, i believe) from Complete Divine makes you a native outsider, I think.. being it's a persistable spell for an artificer (but the staff takes a whooping 86 days to create for a well feated artificer[oh and this wouldn't be possible if it wasn't for the sage ruling a few weeks ago on one-spell staffs]), it's a possibility in eventuality.. but i'm looking for cheaper.. and easier alternatives to be a big-ol dwarf (though visage of the deity and alter self for a dwarf ancestor would probably make my lord Moradin pop a smirk)
Whoops, rambled a bit. Hope I made some sense. ;D
(Holy Transformation is 7th level and its lesser version is a 4th level Cleric spell. I think the evil one is something like Infernal Transformation or something.)
is the lesser one to give the outsider trait, and are all of these personal noninstantanious spells? (sp) In other words, Persistable (of which my definition is any spell which only affects you or eminated from you, not touch spells)
is the lesser one to give the outsider trait, and are all of these personal noninstantanious spells? (sp) In other words, Persistable (of which my definition is any spell which only affects you or eminated from you, not touch spells)
Yes.
Although, since spells only check for legal targets at the time of their casting, you can pull quite a few tricks using those Transformation spells. Of course, that might be more appropriate for a Polymorph (specifically Draconic Polymorph from Draconomicon) thread.
Of course... you might expect your DM to outright refuse to let this work. :P
Also my rogue buddy mentioned the tieflings alter self ability from the FRCS? If you alter self, doesn't it make you lose your racial abilites and feats/skills? so wouldn't that be a paradox?
I may also be getting confused with similar arguments concerning polymorph, but the same principles may apply. As I said, no time to check it out now, off to work, may discuss later.
What does the kobold sorcerer sub level do? Don't have the book with me now; I'll understand if it's a TOS issue but thought it was that you had to spend a slot for breath weapon, or maybe I'm getting it confused with something else...
Someone should list good dragon types for those who are playing a dragonwrought kobold :D
Isn't it mainly just wyrmling dragons? I remember seeing this discussed, but I don't think it was in this thread. I haven't bought a book in forever, and this is such a specialized list that I doubt I'll ever make such a thing. You are welcome to do it and post it here, though. I'll add it to the first page. :D
Thri-kreen, XPH, MMII, others 2hd, +30 to jump, Defect Arrows bonus feat, 2 1d4 claws, 1 bite 1d4, Poison 1d6 dex, +3 NA, land speed 40.
But really, +30 to jump. wowsa.
My Kobold Altered Self into a Wyrmling so he gets a feat, the DMG says Dragons can get a Metamagic feat so I take Sudden Metamagic, use it on a spell and then my PC reverts X min later. I then cast the spell again, take the form of a Wyrmling and take the same Sudden Metamagic feat and use it again. Rise and repeat.
Also, I keep seeing only Natural Armor listed, doesn;t the caster take on the size as well gaining all the bonuses (and penalties) of being tiny (for most Wyrmlings)?
I have a question. Does this work?
My Kobold Altered Self into a Wyrmling so he gets a feat, the DMG says Dragons can get a Metamagic feat so I take Sudden Metamagic, use it on a spell and then my PC reverts X min later. I then cast the spell again, take the form of a Wyrmling and take the same Sudden Metamagic feat and use it again. Rise and repeat.
Also, I keep seeing only Natural Armor listed, doesn;t the caster take on the size as well gaining all the bonuses (and penalties) of being tiny (for most Wyrmlings)?
Question: Why do you think you would get to a feat for using Alter Self to turn into a Wyrmling? I'm assuming you're basing this off the Alter Self section of the Rules in the Game, so I'll answer that question. If I have the wrong end of the stick then do tell me.
Here's the appropriate section of the rules of the game article on alter self, with some emphasis I'll go into later:
- You have the physical qualities of the assumed form.
Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings. Physical qualities also include natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth).
Your size becomes the same as a typical example of the creature whose form you assume, as noted in the creature's description. You cannot assume a larger or smaller size even if the creature's advancement entry lists other possible sizes. If for example, you change into a lizardfolk, you become Medium size -- you could not turn into a Small or Large lizardfolk.
Your maximum speed in any assumed form, however, is 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement; faster speeds are considered extraordinary qualities, even when they are not so listed in the creature's description. In most cases, racial skill bonuses depend on your body and your mind. So, you get to keep your own racial skill bonuses and feats while gaining those of your assumed form. Your DM might want to make certain exceptions. (For example, a dwarf's skill bonuses related to stonework are arguably cultural in origin and don't just appear when you're in dwarf form.)
There are two parts here, one is the fact that this is supposed to be talking about physical qualities, implying that a mental/supernatural feat like a sudden meta magic spell would not be appropriate. This is more of a RAI argument rather than a RAW argument, however, and thus is not entirely watertight (particularly if it's contradicted).
The second emphasis, however, states that you only get racial bonus feats. This means that, unless you can find something that says Wyrmlings get racial bonus feats, you don't get any feats.
Furthermore, as racial bonus feats are generally specific to the creature and cannot be changed, you can't just find a creature with the dragon type and a bonus feat and swap said bonus feat for a feat of your choosing. See the SRD on monster feats:
Feats
The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.
So... The last thing I've not addressed is whether or not Wyrmlings do actually have bonus feats that can be taken as Metamagic feats. Well, as far as I can tell from the Feats section in the True Dragons part of teh MM/SRD (scroll up a bit from this link), they don't:
Feats
All dragons have one feat, plus additional feats based on Hit Dice just like any other creature.
No mention of bonus feats, And unless you're going to resort to Fallacious "it doesn't say I can't" logic and treat non-declared bonus feats as bonus feats, I don't really think there's an argument for the trick you mentioned working.
Stuff
The actual quote from the SRD is
Feats
All dragons have one feat, plus additional feats based on Hit Dice just like any other creature. Dragons favor Alertness, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Snatch, Weapon Focus (claw or bite), Wingover, and any metamagic feat that is available and useful to sorcerers.
This is the metamagic feat I'm talking about
Looks like:
Weapon FinesseB, Toughness, ...
Basically if you see the monster entry with a feat having a little superscript 'B', it's a bonus feat for that monster. Otherwise its not.
Looks like:
Weapon FinesseB, Toughness, ...
Specifically I'm looking at the Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon) which not only has no entry for skills, but also no entry for feats. So that's why I was looking at the 1+1/3HD (or 2 feats in this case) and selecting whatever feat I liked.
If the above is legal, then my question stands, especially since the Planar Dragons are also missing those stats.
Specifically I'm looking at the Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon) which not only has no entry for skills, but also no entry for feats. So that's why I was looking at the 1+1/3HD (or 2 feats in this case) and selecting whatever feat I liked.
All intelligent creatures get 1+1/3HD feats. That is not 2 feats at first level. It is one feat at first level, then another at every level divisible by three. Those are not bonus feats. The dragon entry is just poorly worded, IMO. They don't have bonus feats.
As I said above and others have said again: They get no bonus feats. Without bonus feats, there's no argument that you might potentially get feats from alter self.
Even with bonus feats, that line in the true dragons section wouldn't allow you to swap a given bonus feat for a meta magic feat. They only way that would be possible is if the rules for the given bonus feat specifically said they did, or gave a metamagic feat of the desired type already, as you can't swap bonus feats (according to the monster manual/SRD).
Specifically I'm looking at the Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon) which not only has no entry for skills, but also no entry for feats. So that's why I was looking at the 1+1/3HD (or 2 feats in this case) and selecting whatever feat I liked.
If the above is legal, then my question stands, especially since the Planar Dragons are also missing those stats.
Pretty much all of the true dragons in the MM are missing those stats, also. That's why the section is there in the true dragons section: To tell DMs what feats to give them. It says nothing remarkable, as generally all creatures get 1 feat plus 1 feat per 3 HD as a base line. (Some creatures like Zombies get fewer, however).
Thank you all for the work you have done. It is very much appreciated.
And yes, I did read all 9 pages.
It made me want to be an outsider.
@Vash_HS: I should perhaps be insulted that you seem to have generally ignored most of my post, but OK: it was a bit long-winded. Perhaps I should have just said 'no'?
As I said above and others have said again: They get no bonus feats. Without bonus feats, there's no argument that you might potentially get feats from alter self.
Even with bonus feats, that line in the true dragons section wouldn't allow you to swap a given bonus feat for a meta magic feat. They only way that would be possible is if the rules for the given bonus feat specifically said they did, or gave a metamagic feat of the desired type already, as you can't swap bonus feats (according to the monster manual/SRD).
Pretty much all of the true dragons in the MM are missing those stats, also. That's why the section is there in the true dragons section: To tell DMs what feats to give them. It says nothing remarkable, as generally all creatures get 1 feat plus 1 feat per 3 HD as a base line. (Some creatures like Zombies get fewer, however).
I wouldn't be insulted, I only felt the need to respond to the things I still had questions about. The rest was straight forward and made sense.
Well, thanks all for the help. The +7 Na +1AC size +80 speed and 120 flight will just have to be good enough.
I wouldn't be insulted, I only felt the need to respond to the things I still had questions about. The rest was straight forward and made sense.
Well, thanks all for the help. The +7 Na +1AC size +80 speed and 120 flight will just have to be good enough.
With all due respect to you, I do believe you are still limited to +60 speed on land, but the 120' for flight is within limits. The alter self spell caps the speed at 60 feet on ground, 120 for flight.
Cam
With all due respect to you, I do believe you are still limited to +60 speed on land, but the 120' for flight is within limits. The alter self spell caps the speed at 60 feet on ground, 120 for flight.
Cam
Close enough. I was just going off the top of my head.
All I want is a fly speed, or a fast ground speed...the Alter Self in this case would just turn me into my "travel mode". (yes, yes, Transformers fanboy, I admit...why else bother with a Warforged?)
Considering a Warforged could just turn into an Animated Object, what if you created a construct animal? i.e. a mechanical wolf, or a mechanical bird.
Considering a Warforged could just turn into an Animated Object, what if you created a construct animal? i.e. a mechanical wolf, or a mechanical bird.
you've said all you need but does not perceive... effiggys!
Improved Speed (Ex): The base land speed given in the statistics block assume that an animated object lurches, rocks, or slithers along.
Objects with two legs (statues, ladders) or a similar shape that allows faster movement have a +10 foot bonus to speed. Objects with multiple legs (tables, chairs) have a +20 foot bonus to speed. Wheeled objects have a +40 foot bonus to speed.
Objects might have additional modes of movement. A wooden object can float and has a swim speed equal to half its land speed. A rope or similar sinuous object has a climb speed equal to half its land speed. A sheetlike object can fly (clumsy maneuverability) at half its normal speed.
Wonder Twin Powers, Activate!
Form of: A Bedsheet!!
Just to elaborate a little on what Nephelim already said:
You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
Has anyone discovered anything that a Warforged could conceivably turn into?
All I want is a fly speed, or a fast ground speed...the Alter Self in this case would just turn me into my "travel mode". (yes, yes, Transformers fanboy, I admit...why else bother with a Warforged?)
Considering a Warforged could just turn into an Animated Object, what if you created a construct animal? i.e. a mechanical wolf, or a mechanical bird.
A Tatterdemanimal ragamoffyn (from MMII) has ground speed 40', fly 40' (clumsy) -- small, 1 HD
Wereboars, in particular, have some decent stats, and I'm sure that the various other non-Core books have some 5 HD or less options (lions, hyenas, vipers?).
A Changeling arcanist (Humanoid (shapeshifter)) should be able to change into other Humanoid (shapeshifter) types, such as a Wereboar or Wererat or Werewolf.
Wereboars, in particular, have some decent stats, and I'm sure that the various other non-Core books have some 5 HD or less options (lions, hyenas, vipers?).
Subtype doesn't matter at all. You can turn into creatures with your type. Also, the spell explicitly forbids you from turning into creatures with templates. Lycanthrope is a template. So none of those are legal.
P.S. My guess is no, but was just wondering?
Depending on your DM's ruling, might keep the Improved Whirlwind Attack special attack... That allows it 3x(1d6/18-20/x3) against each opponent within reach. Just add some reach-enhancing fun and a few damage bonuses (strength, bard, etc) and you're laughing.
4HD:
Has anyone discovered anything that a Warforged could conceivably turn into?
All I want is a fly speed, or a fast ground speed...the Alter Self in this case would just turn me into my "travel mode". (yes, yes, Transformers fanboy, I admit...why else bother with a Warforged?)
Considering a Warforged could just turn into an Animated Object, what if you created a construct animal? i.e. a mechanical wolf, or a mechanical bird.
What about a Clockroach from MMIV, Small, Not that physically impressive, but they do notably get burrow and climb speeds.
The MMIII's Warforged Scout could become a Clockwork Mender (also MMIV), giving a 30ft (Perfect) flight speed.
The MMIII's Warforged Charger is also notable as an alter self form... 4HD with large size and reach, plus adamantine body as a bonus feat (and powerful charge). As it's pretty well established that you get bonus feats, that means DR 2/Adamantine and +8 AC... Not too shabby.
[INDENT]Shouldn't this thread be in the CO board rather than 'theoretical optimisation'?[/INDENT]
I mean, it's full of sound advice for people using the Alter Self spell with their own character. Sure, there are silly forms with +15 NA and stuff, but for the most part it's just useful information like what obscure forms have that movement mode you really want.
I noticed this a while ago, but never really put much though into it:
[INDENT]Shouldn't this thread be in the CO board rather than 'theoretical optimisation'?[/INDENT]
I mean, it's full of sound advice for people using the Alter Self spell with their own character. Sure, there are silly forms with +15 NA and stuff, but for the most part it's just useful information like what obscure forms have that movement mode you really want.
Yes. It should. Luckily it's in Surreal's handy links.
This thing is G-R-E-A-T! Are you still interested in maintaining this PhaedrusXY?
I guess so. If someone else wants the job, they're welcome to it, though. :P
I'll add this form from a PM later:
There's a form in Tome of Magic (pg. 80) that can be extremely useful
to aberration casters, such as Daelkyr half-bloods. It's called the
Deadly Dancer.
Medium Aberration
HD: 4
Speed 60 ft.
+2 nat AC
Speed is great, but best of all are its natural attacks: 3 appendage
blades (1d6+Str bonus) on a full attack. Oh, and under Special Attacks:
*Augmented Critical (Ex):* Each of a Deadly Dancer's appendage blades
threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18-20, and deals
triple damage on a successful critical hit.
*Improved Whirlwind Attack (Ex):* As a standard action, a deadly dancer
can make one appendage blade attack at its full base attack bonus
against each opponent within reach (which is unfortunately only 5 ft., but
still...)
It also has Improved Uncanny Dodge, but I don't think you can get that
from alter self.
Despite the illustration, it doesn't make you blind, but there is the
downside of losing your hands and mouth, making spellcasting pretty damn
near impossible. But if you're a Daelkyr half-blood fighter with dips
into wizard and abjurant champion, it can kick serious ass, especially
if Improved whirlwind attack is granted by the alter self spell.
Here's an interesting Abberation Alter-Self form... Either for use with an Abberation familiar or for Elans. Arguably Augmented Critical is natural to the shape, meaning it gets the 3x(1d6/18-20/x3) primary natural attacks.
Depending on your DM's ruling, might keep the Improved Whirlwind Attack special attack... That allows it 3x(1d6/18-20/x3) against each opponent within reach. Just add some reach-enhancing fun and a few damage bonuses (strength, bard, etc) and you're laughing.
4HD:
His feats listed (LR and/or II) are NOT racial feats. So you don't get them. Also missing is the racial skills bonus to Hide and Move Silently when in shadowy areas (see upper left on pg. 38 regarding their shared primary race).
I only mention this because I love these 2 races! And I wanted to use them in Alter Self .... but now I am rethinking that due to the loss of those feats. :-(
****
Dark Creeper FF 38 V/S 1 S 30ft Lightning Reflexes
Dark Stalker FF 38 V/S 2 M 30ft Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes
After reviewing the Dark Creeper and Dark Stalker from FF (note: they both have NO errata) ... I see Phaedrus has some errors in their entries.
His feats listed (LR and/or II) are NOT racial feats. So you don't get them. Also missing is the racial skills bonus to Hide and Move Silently when in shadowy areas (see upper left on pg. 38 regarding their shared primary race).
I only mention this because I love these 2 races! And I wanted to use them in Alter Self .... but now I am rethinking that due to the loss of those feats. :-(
****
Dark Creeper FF 38 V/S 1 S 30ft Lightning Reflexes
Dark Stalker FF 38 V/S 2 M 30ft Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes
I think you are right, Wire.
Hell Hound (MM) 5 M 40 Bite (1d8+1), +5 Hide and Move Silent, +8 Survival when tracking by scent
Tanarukk (RoF) 4 M 20 Bite (1d6)
Baphitaur (Underdark) 3 M 30 Gore (1d6+1), +2 Listen, Search, and Spot
Hound Archon (PlnHnbk) 2 M 40 Bite (1d6), Slam (1d3)
Fire Gensai ?
Earth Gensai ?
Alter Self into a Human (even if you are one yourself). Gain a Bonus Feat. Pick Otherworldly. You're now an Outsider- and humans can clearly cast spells. Now Alter Self into your cheesy outsider of choice. :D
Warforged stuff, from Magic of Eberron:
Improved Homunculus allows you to add HD to your Homunculi, which doesn't count as 'advancement' as far as I can see, since I think it goes beyond the Advancement entries in the examples. So, more fun forms:
All of these get NA (whatever's normal for that Homunculus) +2.
Iron Defender, with a +1 ability in its bite- take Bane (whatever you're fighting).
Expeditious Messenger with Fly 40' (perfect)- any other can get Fly 20' (good)
(any) with Swim 20'
(any) with Climb 20'
(any) with Sneak Attack +1d6
+3 to any one skill- since some (Furtive Filcher!) already have great skills, this can get fun...
Each of these is from a 3 to 5 HD homuncuus.
I am an awakend Monkey Wizard (Magical Beast)
I cast Alter self and become a Darkmantle. Now as far as i know i dont get blindsight due to alter self. The problem I then see is that the text says that if the Darkmantle is silenced it is blinded indicating it has no other way to see.
My monkey has Darkvision as per magical beast template, but as a Darkmantle i would assume no eyes to see through as it states if the blindsight is blocked then it is blind.
However the picture of the Darkmantle has eyes on it
I like the idea of the Darkmantle but being blind is a bit of an issue.....
Unless I have it wrong.
Sample: Ravid
I was wondering if the ankheg was an acceptable form for an Improved Familiar. I noticed it is missing from the list, so I'm sure there's a reason. But I don't see why it wouldn't be usable.
-Ankheg; 3HD; Large; 30 ft, burrow 20 ft; +9 natural; bite (2d6)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks right to me.
Is this resource still being updated? If not, I'll post a new thread.
I was wondering if the ankheg was an acceptable form for an Improved Familiar. I noticed it is missing from the list, so I'm sure there's a reason. But I don't see why it wouldn't be usable.
-Ankheg; 3HD; Large; 30 ft, burrow 20 ft; +9 natural; bite (2d6)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks right to me.
You would need a medium-sized (or larger) improved familiar with type Magical Beast, but it would work just fine.
JaronK
Wait, how do you get the bonus feats of your Alter Self forms? I thought it only gives Ex Special Attacks... feats aren't special attacks.
JaronK
Read the spell. You get racial bonus feats. Humans get a racial bonus feat of their choice. So yeah, technically this is legal. Good luck getting a DM to allow it, though.
Also, I doubt I'll ever update this thread again. I don't really frequent this board much anymore. So if someone else wants to start a new one, feel free to use anything in this one.
For the fey'ri, the type is outsider.
Only the shape of a outsider and humanoid ?
Yeah, I've thought a bit about warforged forms, but that was mainly for use with the psionic power Metamorphosis. Thanks for that list. I'll add a link to it to the first post.
I've made a copy of this thread on www.brilliantgameologists.com, and will probably maintain that as the "main" version instead of this one from now on.
JaronK
They speak language: goblin.
Edit:
By the way, yes, I have read discussion in page 5.
May be it's just I didn't read the book thoroughly enough.
Would someone care to point out where it says they cannot speak?
I'd like to note the wrackspawn, from MM4. An outsider with only +2 natural armor and speed 20ft, it might seem a bit underpowered, even with the claw attack at base 2d4 damage - but if you have metamorphic transfer, you can get his pain supernatural ability, pretty nasty by itself.
That should go into the thread on good forms for Metamorphic Transfer, then. ;) I think I had a thread on that at one point...
Initially, I had blindly used the lists on CrystalKeep.com, and then I was seriously dissapointed when I found that Blackscale Lizard folk were Monstrous Humanoids.
(CrystalKeep listed them as just Humanoids)
I thought that would be a great combat form with Large size (reach) and +7 Natural Armor.
Fortunately, CrystalKeep does provide one other Large sized Humanoid.
Name: Quinametin
Source: DR317
Cast: V/S
NA: +2
Size: Large
Movement: 30'
A wizard of 3rd level can cast Alter Self. If he chooses human, he can gain a metamagic feat that he does not already have, right?
According to the SRD, in 30 minutes (the duration of Alter Self at 3rd level), a wizard has enough time to prepare half of his spells.
So, can a wizard become a human long enough to prepare some portion of his spells using metamagic, then prepare the rest of his spells as normal? Would he be able to cast his metamagically prepared spells, even though he no longer has the feat?
Improved Minor Shapechange [Racial]
Your minor shapechange ability is considerably more powerful.