3.5 gestalt cross-classing help - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

3.5 gestalt cross-classing help

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
sedrick189
Aug 26, 2013 13:51:06 im making a level 10 gestalt character that is a level 10 psion (psionics handbook page 7, a level 7 bard (players handbook pg 27), and a level 3 mind bender (complete arcane pg 55) , but im having difficulty figuring out what the base attack bonus and the base saves should be for my character at level 10
#2
Tempest_Stormwind
Aug 26, 2013 14:07:10
im making a level 10 gestalt character that is a level 10 psion (psionics handbook page 7, a level 7 bard (players handbook pg 27), and a level 3 mind bender (complete arcane pg 55) , but im having difficulty figuring out what the base attack bonus and the base saves should be for my character at level 10

Go level by level.

The first 7 levels are all Psion//Bard. Psion has poor base attack, poor Fortitude, poor Reflex, and good Will; Bard has medium base attack, poor Fortitude, good Reflex, good Will. Therefore Psion//Bard has medium base attack, poor Fortitude, good Reflex, and good Will.

As for the remaining 3 levels, here's where it gets interesting. There's two schools of thought with gestalt: the one that says that Wizard 20 // Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 19 has base attack +20, because each of the alternating classes gives +1 base attack on the level where the other gives +0. There's also the school that says such a character has base attack of 10, because wizard and sorcerer each have poor base attack and a poor base attack character advances by 0.5 each level. The gestalt rules are NOT clear on which is the default, but the latter makes MUCH more sense when you start doing things like this.

You need to check with your DM which one you're using.

Under the former school of thought, you'd compare Psion 8-10 with Mindbender 1-3, and pick the higher value at each point. Since this gets a bit degenerate I'll ignore it.

Under the second, you'd see that the mindbender has poor base attack, good Fortitude, poor Reflex, and good Will, so Psion//Mindbender has poor base attack, good Fortitude (and it's your first level with a good Fortitude class, so that's an extra +2), poor Reflex, and good Will. This means you've got a character with 7 levels of medium base attack, poor Fortitude, good Reflex, and good Will, and three levels of poor base attack, good Fortitude, poor Reflex, and good Will. Put them together and you have the following:
Base attack: 7*(3/4) + 3*(1/2) = 6.75 = +6
Fortitude: 7*(1/3) + 3*(1/2) +2 (good save for one class) = 5.8 = +5
Reflex: 7*(1/2) + 2 (good save for one class) + 3*(1/3) = 6.5 = +6
Will: 10*(1/2) +4 (good save for two classes) = +9

EDIT: RED ALERT!
You describe the psion as from the "psionics handbook" page 7. That book is third edition, not 3.5. It's also ridiculously bad. The 3e psionics rules simultaneously manage to be overpowered and underpowered, and do so largely because they are immensely confusing and counterintuitive.

Abandon the book immediately and switch to the Expanded Psionics Handbook - despite the name, it's the core 3.5 psionics book, and thankfully, the material there is already free in the SRD (good mirror of it here). While the 3e psionics handbook is the physical manifestation of a natural 1, the 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook is one of the best books ever printed for the system, and that reputation held up over the years.
#3
mouser13
Aug 26, 2013 14:10:25 Order can make a difference in some builds but I tested a few options and it didn't seem to matter. Your build in hero forge says 6/1 base attack. And fort 5,reflex 6, will 9

I assumed you where not doing partical saves or partical base attack.



#4
Tempest_Stormwind
Aug 26, 2013 14:11:47
Order can make a difference in some builds but I tested a few options and it didn't seem to matter. Your build in hero forge says 6/1 base attack. And fort 5,reflex 6, will 9

I assumed you where not doing partical saves or partical base attack.




I *did* use fractional saves and fractional base attack and I got the same numbers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sedrick189 Aug 26, 2013 13:51:06	im making a level 10 gestalt character that is a level 10 psion (psionics handbook page 7, a level 7 bard (players handbook pg 27), and a level 3 mind bender (complete arcane pg 55) , but im having difficulty figuring out what the base attack bonus and the base saves should be for my character at level 10
#2 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 26, 2013 14:07:10	im making a level 10 gestalt character that is a level 10 psion (psionics handbook page 7, a level 7 bard (players handbook pg 27), and a level 3 mind bender (complete arcane pg 55) , but im having difficulty figuring out what the base attack bonus and the base saves should be for my character at level 10 Go level by level. The first 7 levels are all Psion//Bard. Psion has poor base attack, poor Fortitude, poor Reflex, and good Will; Bard has medium base attack, poor Fortitude, good Reflex, good Will. Therefore Psion//Bard has medium base attack, poor Fortitude, good Reflex, and good Will. As for the remaining 3 levels, here's where it gets interesting. There's two schools of thought with gestalt: the one that says that Wizard 20 // Fighter 1 / Sorcerer 19 has base attack +20, because each of the alternating classes gives +1 base attack on the level where the other gives +0. There's also the school that says such a character has base attack of 10, because wizard and sorcerer each have poor base attack and a poor base attack character advances by 0.5 each level. The gestalt rules are NOT clear on which is the default, but the latter makes MUCH more sense when you start doing things like this. You need to check with your DM which one you're using. Under the former school of thought, you'd compare Psion 8-10 with Mindbender 1-3, and pick the higher value at each point. Since this gets a bit degenerate I'll ignore it. Under the second, you'd see that the mindbender has poor base attack, good Fortitude, poor Reflex, and good Will, so Psion//Mindbender has poor base attack, good Fortitude (and it's your first level with a good Fortitude class, so that's an extra +2), poor Reflex, and good Will. This means you've got a character with 7 levels of medium base attack, poor Fortitude, good Reflex, and good Will, and three levels of poor base attack, good Fortitude, poor Reflex, and good Will. Put them together and you have the following: Base attack: 7(3/4) + 3(1/2) = 6.75 = +6 Fortitude: 7(1/3) + 3(1/2) +2 (good save for one class) = 5.8 = +5 Reflex: 7(1/2) + 2 (good save for one class) + 3(1/3) = 6.5 = +6 Will: 10(1/2) +4 (good save for two classes) = +9 EDIT: RED ALERT!* You describe the psion as from the "psionics handbook" page 7. That book is third edition, not 3.5. It's also ridiculously bad. The 3e psionics rules simultaneously manage to be overpowered and underpowered, and do so largely because they are immensely confusing and counterintuitive. Abandon the book immediately and switch to the Expanded Psionics Handbook - despite the name, it's the core 3.5 psionics book, and thankfully, the material there is already free in the SRD (good mirror of it here). While the 3e psionics handbook is the physical manifestation of a natural 1, the 3.5 Expanded Psionics Handbook is one of the best books ever printed for the system, and that reputation held up over the years.
#3 mouser13 Aug 26, 2013 14:10:25	Order can make a difference in some builds but I tested a few options and it didn't seem to matter. Your build in hero forge says 6/1 base attack. And fort 5,reflex 6, will 9 I assumed you where not doing partical saves or partical base attack.
#4 Tempest_Stormwind Aug 26, 2013 14:11:47	Order can make a difference in some builds but I tested a few options and it didn't seem to matter. Your build in hero forge says 6/1 base attack. And fort 5,reflex 6, will 9 I assumed you where not doing partical saves or partical base attack. I did use fractional saves and fractional base attack and I got the same numbers.